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#1SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
[Warlock] PVE Raiding Compendium

I'm going to try and attempt to summarize the vast wealth of information going around.

With patch 2.4 out, I'm adding new data as we learn things.

If you are only interested in what a particular talent build or piece of loot does for you, I recommend using the spreadsheet by Leulier, linked at the bottom.

Warlocks have many great talents, and there is lots of room for customizing your spec. Consequently there are many viable hybrid builds, each requiring a different play style. To keep this guide short, I'll focus on the three main tiers and their most sensible pve raid builds. Even within those there are a lot of variations possible.



Affliction

Affliction focuses on dots. Typical demon choice for this style is imp. Even though your crit chance is lower than that of destruction warlocks, you'll want to have improved shadow bolt.

Examples
classic Spec
Raid support with UA
Raid support with Ruin

As mentioned before, there is plenty of flexibility in the early parts of the Affliction tree.

Play style
- Optimal strategy is to keep Unstable Affliction, Corruption, Siphon Life and a curse active on your target. When all your dots are up you will be using that time to throw Shadow Bolts or Dark Pact/Life tap. Good timing is important: never refresh a dot effect before it has run its full duration, but minimize the time between the last tic and reapplying. For example, you want to start casting Unstable Affliction before the last tic hits, so that the last tic happens during the cast and UA is reapplied almost immediately after.
- You probably want to use an addon like DoTimer | World of Warcraft @ Curse.com or Forte Gaming / Forte Warlock Addon for this. There is no fixed rotation since your dots have different durations.
- Get your imp buffed, blessing of wisdom helps a lot for his mana regeneration, which you can siphon off with dark pact. Imps can only be buffed when they are not phase shifted.
- Despite Drain Life getting a lot of benefits, Shadow Bolts will always outdamage it. Drain life is the most mana efficient spell since you're effectively gaining life/mana.

Strong and weak points
- More mana efficient and self sufficient than other trees.
- Ideal in situations when two or more mobs are being tanked, as you can dot them all.
- This spec provides less burst damage, and scales worse with gear than other specs.
- Bloodpact can be nice to boost party hit points, especially on fights where a tank can get flattened fast, or where there is lots of aoe damage on the raid.
- Can come with Malediction, which scales with the amount of Shadow/Arcane users in the raid. It adds 2.7% over the untalented CoS. (113% talented, 110% untalented, 1.13/1.1 = 102.73%)
- Can come with Shadow Embrace, which reduces the melee damage on the tank by 5%. This effect is multiplicative: if your tank would take a 1000 hit it'll be 950 with SE.
- Due to the high amount of raid benefits (Blood Pact, Malediction, Shadow Embrace), having at least one affliction warlock in a raid is recommended.
- This build uses a lot of debuff slots. As soon as the cap of 40 debuffs on a mob is reached, the oldest ones will start falling off. For this reason, too many affliction warlocks in a raid will hamper one another. If you're having trouble with debuffs being pushed off, you can use a lower rank of CoS (see Curses, below), have all warlocks use only the optimal dots, or get Warlocks to respec to another tree. (also, see the Debuff count addon linked at the bottom of this post)
- Most affliction warlocks use Suppresion to reach the hit cap early on, and spec out of it when they obtain more +hit on their gear.

Variants
Affliction builds have access to several talents that can support the raid: Improved blood pact, Malediction, and Shadow Embrace. Most variants are therefore tradeoffs between these and talents that will increase the Warlock's personal dps.

Optimally just one warlock in the raid should have them. The UA support build is recommended at starting levels, with the Ruin support build likely to perform a bit better at end level raiding, due to high amounts of hit and crit rating on pieces at that level.

30/21/10 keeps popping up as an alternative build. It's been harshly criticised every time it was proposed. See post #78 and beyond in this thread for details.


Basic gear choices (see below)
Spell hit (until capped with suppression) > Spell damage > Spell haste & Crit

After obtaining 76 hit rating with 5/5 Suppression, warlock dots are hit capped. Further extra hit rating only affects Shadow Bolts/Immolate, and is worth less than spell damage on a point-for-point basis.






Demonology

Demonology in raids is about making best use of your top tier Demonology talents. The strength of these can make up for the lackluster mid tier Demonology ones.

Demonologists get a boost to spell power, get a 5% damage bonus due to soul link, and get +5% to crit with spells. It is vital their pet stays alive, though. A Demonologist without a pet is very ineffective.

Raiding With Felguard (SSC, TK, Hyjal, BT) - The Warlocks Den is a great resource for aspiring Demonologists.

Examples
Standard Spec with high focus on ISB
Another version with improved Life Tap
Demonology without a Felguard using a Succubus instead to obtain Ruin.

Play Style & tips
- Keeping your Felguard or Succubus alive is key. Micro managing your pet is vital, since it dying means losing a lot of dps.
- Spell rotations are similar to affliction, with a higher accent on (improved) Shadow Bolts.
- Remember to have your pet attack from the back. Melee attacks from the front can be parried, which can cause a faster attack on the MT. Avoid this at all costs. Update: this has been patched, and demons will now position themselves behind their target.
- Ask for buffs on your pet. His stamina and intellect will boost your attack power, and it'll allow him to stay alive longer. BoW should help too
- One point in Mana Feed will allow the Felguard to cleave for 5 minutes
- If you choose to use a Succubus, don't have her use Lash of Pain on the primary target, as it eats ISB debuff charges.
- [Sporeling Snack] and [Kibler's Bits] work on Warlock Pets. The latter is a reward from the cooking quests from the goblin in Shattrath.
- Greater blessings cast on warlocks will also affect their demons, except the Felguard. Felguard and hunter pets get the greater blessings cast on Warriors instead. Phase shifted imps do NOT receive buffs.
- Demons about to die can be dismissed and nearly instantly resummoned with Fel Domination. This will conserve their buffs, and bring them back with full health and mana. The command to dismiss a demon is /run PetAbandon(), which can be macro'd and assigned to a button.

Strong and weak points
- Demonology relies on having the Felguard/Succubus out, so the effectiveness varies a lot. Some fights are brutal towards pets.
- It is the most versatile spec due to the demons each having different effects on you.
- Best choice for Warlock offtanks in specific encounters (Leotheras being a prime example)
- Demonology is probably the least gear dependent of all three specs. Exception is the tier 5 two piece set bonus : [Hood of the Corruptor]. This set bonus make a vast difference. [Void Star Talisman] is also really useful in keeping your pet alive. Before obtaining those items, demonology is likely to perform less well than the alternatives due to the extra healing required on the pet. Shadow Priests in your group will obviously help a lot for pet survivability.
- Demonologists want a raidbuffed demon out at all times. Make sure to resummon it before raid buffs are applied, or you'll end up having to ask for buffs on your pet. These buffs have huge effects on your demon and on your spellpower. It can become quite a hassle to have to ask for buffs: most healers don't have pets included in their UI and having to ask for buffs on a pet can become quite tedious. Especially the Succubus is prone to dying quite fast.

Variants
The Succubus build is an alternative to 0/21/40. It has Demonic Tactis (5% crit) and Soul Link and Demonic Knowledge (typically around +200 damage for a raid buffed succubus). It doesn't have the 0/21/40 Backlash (3% crit) and SnD (20% spellpower to Shadow Bolt/Incinerate). For reference, a Succubus has a lot less hit points and has no avoidance to aoe effects compared to a Felguard.

Basic gear choices (see below)
Spell hit > Spell damage > Spell Haste > Spell Crit

As mentioned before, tier 5 two part bonus is very useful for this spec, as is [Void Star Talisman] which drops from Solarian in TK.

Stamina and Intellect and Demonic Knowledge:
Demons get a Stamina boost equal to 30% of their owner, same for Intellect, which translates into 15% Spell power.

With talents:
1 stamina on items =
1.15 stamina on Warlock (Demonic Embrace) =
0.3968 Stamina on Demon (Fel Stamina 15%, Demon Sta contribution 30%) =
0.0595 spellpower (15% Demonic Knowledge)
0.0720 spellpower with kings on both demon and owner

So 1 sta = 0.072 spellpower with BoK.

It also boosts your Succubus hit points with 2.9 without kings (update needed for Felguard, can anyone tell me the stamina to hit point conversion? It's demon dependent, Succubi get 7 health per sta)

1 intellect =
0.345 int to demon (Fel Intellect 15%, Demon Int Contribution 30%) =
0.052 spell power (15% Demonic Knowledge)
0.062 spell power with kings on both demon and owner.
So with Kings 1 int = 0.062 spellpower (and 0.3 crit rating, as listed further in this post)

Gearing for Stamina or Intellect in order to obtain higher spellpower through Demonic Knowledge will yield very insignificant returns, especially compared to how buffs like Fortitude and Arcane Intellect on the demon will affect it. Because of this, Stamina's only real function is to give you (and to a lesser extent, your demon) a larger health pool.



Destruction

Due to Shadowfury's limited use in raids, the typical Destruction build is 0/21/40, taking a few subpar talents in Demonology to obtain Demonic Sacrifice, which boost shadow damage by 15%.

This build focuses primarily on Shadow and Flame, Ruin, and Demonic Sacrifice, resulting in Shadow Bolts with a high damage coefficient from spell power. (3/3.5 + 0.2 from talents, or rougly 105.7%)

It's very important to keep the Improved Shadow Bolt Debuff (ISB) up as much as possible, since it provides 20% extra shadow damage to the entire raid while it is active. (including dots - this is a common misconception). Destruction warlocks consequently put a higher value on crit rating than other builds do, since it helps with ISB uptime..

At low gear levels, fire spells are competitive, but they scale considerably worse compared to their shadow counterparts due to the ISB debuff. As gear improves Shadow Bolt will become more and more powerful compared to the other spells.

This spec scales best with gear, and will clearly outperform affliction on high gear levels (Hyjal/BT). For starting raiders, affliction gets a head start due to the hit bonus of Suppression and the mechanics of dots putting spell damage to work while needing virtually no other stats. When +hit gear becomes more easily available, the gap closes.

There has been much debate about what the exact gear treshold is, for destruction to outperform affliction. Opinions are divided on the matter. Both specs require different play styles, resulting in boss fights typically favoring one spec over the other. ISB damage is hard to measure. Because of this it is virtually impossible to get solid evidence. The debate is unlikely to cease any time soon.

The old rule of thumb "you need Hyjal/BT gear for destruction to be viable" is most definitely untrue. Anecdotal evidence suggests Destruction warlocks with Kharazan or tailored gear outperform equally geared affliction warlocks. Your mileage may vary, as player skill and latency are likely to be far more determining factors.


Examples
Default build
Hybrid Fire Destruction
Full fire destruction
Destruction with Siphon Life
Destruction with Shadowfury

Play style
- Spam Shadow Bolts and curses. Life Tap at opportunate times. Bring potions, healthstones and bandages.
- Curse of Doom and Curse of Agony still provide higher dps over Shadow Bolts provided your target lives long enough.
- At lower spelldamage levels Corruption will be viable, provided you have enough debuff slots, you get the full 6 tics, you're not threat capped and you don't need to move to cast it (no extra range talent).
- If CoE and improved Scorch are up, talented Immolate will outdamage Shadow Bolt on damage-per-casting-time at every realistic gear choice, even if accounting for the extra mana cost and ISB procs. If all of these factors are absent, Shadow Bolt might be the better choice depending on gear (better gear favors SB).
- At the start of a fight you may want to apply Corruption then Immolate regardless of gear, since starting early with Shadow Bolts can easily outaggro the tank if he gets an unlucky string of dodges/misses/parries on the pull, and you crit your first couple of spells.
- Since you require Life Taps, having some way to monitor raid health is recommended. When the raid is topped up, a Life Tap or two will result in Flashes of Light or Renew/Rejuvenation on you, all of which are very mana efficient. Moderation is key, since a string of consecutive Life Taps will set off alarm bells, diverting healer attention.

Strong and weak points
- This spec has the most powerful burst damage. This is a boon when things need to die quick, but it makes it harder to manage threat while still maximizing dps.
- It is the least mana efficient spec, requiring the occasional heal to be able to keep dpsing.
- Destruction warlocks will need a healthy amount of healthstones, healing potions and bandages in case healing is scarce. Having to stop dpsing to bandage or drain life will make your dps drop dramatically.
- Scales the best with gear, due to Shadow Bolts getting a 106% bonus per +damage (3/3.5 + 0.2 from talents), which result in more dps bonus than any other spell for any spec.
- ISB uptime is hard to measure or model, but provides a boost in shadow damage to the entire raid.
- This spec requires a lot less management since there are no real dots to keep track of, and no pet that can die. Some warlock dislike the lack of variety in spells used, others prefer it because it allows them to focus on other things, like keeping an overview of what is happening.
- Conflagrate, like Shadowburn has very limited use in raids, as Shadow Bolts outdamage it.


Variants:
The fire specs use Incinerate over Shadow Bolts. It is more mana efficient, but has no synergy with other Warlocks/Shadow Priests since you're not contributing to ISB. Probably only competitive with the standard build when there are no Shadow users in the raid at all, and fire mages are keeping improved Scorch up. It is listed for completeness.

The Siphon Life spec drops Demonic Sacrifice for Improved Life Tap and Siphon Life, making you more self reliant. Key talents are the standard destro ones (SnF, Ruin, +8% crit) and Siphon Life. Not as high dps output as the default build, but does require less heals and Life Taps and provides Blood Pact.

The Shadowfury spec drops Demonic Sacrifice for Shadowfury and some affliction talents. Not as high dps output as the default build, but gets improved Life Tap, Shadowfury and provides Blood Pact. Shadowfury has very limited use in raids, but is very powerful in encounters where it does work. (Hydross, Morogrim, Vashj, Solarian and in Hyjal / ZA)

Nether protection is good on only a few encounters (Illhoof, Theron Gorefiend, Archimonde). It does not proc off Leotheras's Demon phase Fire Bolts, so this will not affect your ability to tank him. This is not the case for later bosses (Capernian, Illidan) that can normally also be tanked by warlocks in certain phases: you will not be able to tank these reliably with Nether Protection. Use of a /cancelaura Nether Protection macro can alleviate but not solve the problem.


Basic gear choices (see below)
Spell hit > Spell Haste /Spell damage / Crit.



General gearing issues:


There are 4 main statistics for a warlock for dps:
Spell damage
Spell hit
Spell haste rating
Spell crit


Each of these has diminishing returns. As a result, there is no fixed tradeoff rate for one versus the other. Different specs will also focus on different stats.

Tools to determine tradeoffs for hit/crit/haste rating and spelldamage for your specific talent build and gear selection are linked below.

Spell hit is a special case, because it provides the most effective way to increase dps on bosses and is useless on everything else beyond 5%. The hit cap versus bosses is 16% (202 spell hit rating, unless you have a Draenei or a Totem of Wrath). Typically Warlocks will use two sets of gear, one for bosses and another for trash mobs or add fights.

Spell haste rating largely depends on the spells you use. Destruction warlocks will favor it most, affliction ones will like it the least.

Spell crit is only useful if you have ISB (which, however, all raiding warlocks should). Even then, the high amount of rating required for one crit % make it worth less than the other ratings.

This post describes well how tradeoffs work. That post is written with destruction warlocks in mind, but it is equally valid for Demonology and to a lesser extent affliction.

Rating vs ratio rates:
22.1 crit rating is 1% crit
15.77 haste rating is 1% extra casting speed.
12.6 hit rating is 1% hit

Update: more exact numbers are 12.6153 for hit, 15.76923 for haste, and 22.0769 for crit. For even more exact numbers, you can use [url=http://www.wowwiki.com/API_GetCombatRatingBonus]

Update: hit vs crit
It was demonstrated in this thread that 1% hit is about the same as 1% crit chance dpswise (depending on how you value ISB), for destro locks and better than 1% crit for everyone else. Because hit rating has a much bigger effect on hit chance than crit rating does on crit, hit rating will have a bigger effect on overal dps. Optimal dps strategy is therefore to cap your hit rating using gems, since gems offer equal amount of crit/hit.


update: Heroism/Bloodlust do NOT decrease the global cooldown of 1.5s for warlocks. Haste rating does (since patch 2.4) and is therefore a very good stat for any warlock now. Global cooldown is capped 1s, making the haste cap 50%, which is near 800, not obtainable in a raid setting. Haste still suffers from diminishing returns due to your MP5 not contributing, but for most purposes pretty much provides linear increase to your dps. Total dps = unhasted dps * (1+haste rating/1577)


Base stats:

Stamina
Having enough Stamina will prevent you from dying to random aoe abilities. After a certain treshold it will hardly affect you at all. See above for effect on Demonologists.

Intellect
Intellect will increase your base mana, which isn't very important in pve. In addition, 82 int grants 1% spellcrit, so it roughly 1 int = 0.27 crit rating. (0.3 with kings).

Spirit
If you have a Priest with Improved Divine Spirit present, 10% of your Spirit goes to spell power. Therefore 1 Spirit = 0.1 spelldamage. (0.11 with kings)



Meta gem choices:
[Imbued Unstable Diamond] from the Bash'ir event. Requires 100 apexis crystals and surviving the Bash'ir onslaught.
[Mystical Skyfire Diamond]
[Swift Starfire Diamond], obtained from Spirit Shards.
[Bracing Earthstorm Diamond]
[Chaotic Skyfire Diamond]

Chaotic Skyfire Diamond makes crits do 209% damage of a normal hit. (150% x 3% = 154.5%, with Ruin the crit damage bonus is doubled, so 209%)

For Destruction and Demonology, [Chaotic Skyfire Diamond] will be the best choice, but for Affliction there are multiple choices.


Basic gem choices:

Most obvious are:
[Veiled Noble Topaz]
[Runed Living Ruby]

Alternatives are:
[Great Dawnstone] Used early on to reach the hit cap
[Glowing Nightseye] Used only to meet exceptional socket bonuses or Metagem requirements.
[Potent Noble Topaz] Used only to meet exceptional socket bonuses or Metagem requirements after reaching the hit cap.

These same cuts are available for the Black Temple and Mt. Hyjal epic gems.

Todo: There are new haste gems in 2.4. They're likely to be better than the hit/crit equivalents and should be looked up. Feel free to help me out with these.


Crafted Gear for warlocks

The Spellstrike set is a good option.
[Spellstrike Hood]
[Spellstrike Pants]

[Belt of Blasting] is craftable using two nether vortexes. The pattern drops in SSC off trash.

Regardless of spec, tailoring warlocks can get the Frozen Shadoweave Set, which remains useful even in BT.
[Frozen Shadoweave Boots]
[Frozen Shadoweave Shoulders]
[Frozen Shadoweave Robe]

For engineers, the [Destruction Holo-gogs] are by far the best choice. They can be upgraded to [Annihilator Holo-Gogs]. The schematic is boe and drops in Sunwell Plateau (from trash, apparently, confirmation needed).

Leatherworking provides [Drums of Battle], duration 30 seconds and cooldown is two minute. Chain using these gives the rough equivalent of 20 haste per person, or 100 haste for one person.

Alchemy provides [Sorcerer's Alchemist Stone].


Trinkets

vendor purchasable trinkets:
[Darkmoon Card: Crusade] (Darkmoon card reward)
[Scryer's Bloodgem] (from vendor, requires scryer reputation)
[Icon of the Silver Crescent] (vendor, 41 Heroic Badges)
[Ashtongue Talisman of Shadows] (from vendor, requires exalted reputation with the Ashtongue Deathsworn in BT)

about the talisman:
The highly situational use of this trinket renders it useless to almost all warlocks, given its place in gear progression: Warlocks exalted with the Ashtongue typically already have very good trinkets. On single targets the Icon is better, even for Warlocks that have Instant Corruption. It can outdo the Icon on multiple targets, the theoretical threshold is around 20 Corruption tics per minute, provided you have Corruption talented.

As already mentioned [Sorcerer's Alchemist Stone] required SSO exalted reputation.

[Timbal's Focusing Crystal] drops off Priestess Delrissa (3rd boss in Magister's Terrace) on heroic mode. It is relatively easy to get, considering how good it is. Cooldown is supposed to be 15 seconds with a 10% proc chance. The effect is a mini shadow dot that does not eat ISB but is boosted by it. (confirmation needed).


Magister's Terrace and gearing up a new warlock

The loot in the new 5 man instance, introduced in 2.4, is far superior to all other dungeon loot in quality. In addition, Kael'thas drops heroic items in normal mode, and all bosses drop epic items in heroic mode.

Notable drops on normal mode:
[Bindings of Raging Fire] off Selin
[Band of Arcane Alacrity] off Vexallus
[Cloak of the Betrayed] and [Duskhallow Mantle] off Priestess Delrissa
[Gloves of Arcane Acuity] and [Kharmaa's Ring of Fate] off Kael'thas

Notable drops on heroic mode:
[Jaded Crystal Dagger] off Selin
[Fel-tinged Mantle] off Vexallus
[Timbal's Focusing Crystal] off Priest Delrissa
[Scarlet Sin'dorei Robes] off Kael'thas


Consumables to boost dps

[Drums of Battle] are the most effective way of boosting raid dps.

Using [Super Mana Potion] on every cooldown will boost your dps by reducing Life Tap downtime, especially if you have a [Sorcerer's Alchemist Stone].

[Destruction Potion] are the second best option. In fights that have down time where you can replenish your mana, they're the best option.



Warlock sets

Tier 4
[Voidheart Crown] - Prince Malchazaar
[Voidheart Mantle] - High King Maulgar
[Voidheart Robe] - Magtheridon
[Voidheart Leggings] - Gruul the Dragonkiller
[Voidheart Gloves] - Curator

2p set bonus reported to have a 10% proc rate and does proc off dots (confirmation needed).
4p set bonus grants both Corruption and Immolate an extra tic, increasing total damage per cast of Corruption by 16% and Immolate by roughly 12%.

Tier 5
[Leggings of the Corruptor] - Fathom-Lord Karathress
[Hood of the Corruptor] - Lady Vashj
[Gloves of the Corruptor] - Leotheras the Blind
[Mantle of the Corruptor] - Void Reaver
[Robe of the Corruptor] - Kael'thas Sunstrider

2p set bonus is incredibly good for demonologists, and useless to everyone else.
4p set bonus is worded strangely, it only applies to the base damage of the spell. The exact mechanics are unknown but it can be approximated as follows: for Corruption this resulsts in roughly 15 extra damage per remaining tic, before multipliers like CoS/Misery/ISB. This results in roughly 45-50 extra damage per shadowbolt before multipliers.

T6
[Leggings of the Malefic] - Illidari Council (BT)
[Hood of the Malefic] - Archimonde (MH)
[Gloves of the Malefic] - Azgalor (MH)
[Mantle of the Malefic] - Mother Shahraz (BT)
[Robe of the Malefic] - Illidan (BT)
[Bracers of the Malefic] - Kalecgos (SWP)
[Belt of the Malefic] - Brutallus (SWP)
[Boots of the Malefic] - Felmyst (SWP)

2p set bonus is nearly useless in raids.
4p set bonus grants 6% to the total damage of Shadowbolt. It is the equivalent of roughly 120-140 spellpower towards shadow bolt at that stage, depending on spec and gear.



End game loot choices
There is no definitive lists, it all depends on what gear you already have. Hit rating provides most bang for your buck on bosses until it is capped. Everything else is spec dependant.

For a rough list, you can punch in these numbers in lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character :
spell damage = 1, shadow damage = 1, hit = 1
and depending on spec:
Affliction: crit = 0.5
Demonology: crit = 1, sta = 0.1, int = 0.1
Destruction: crit = 1.

Note that Destruction warlocks will want 4p T6 over any other available gear choice, as 6% bonus to shadow bolts worth more than 100 spell power. Demonologists will want 2p T5 over anything else.

Lootzor currently doesn't do haste rating, but haste would be around 1 / 1 / 1.2 for Affliction / Demonology / Destruction.


Area of effect spells
Seed of Corruption provides the highest dps for any spec and any gear quality, by a large margin. This is of course assuming you're not getting interrupted and hitting more than one target.

Hellfire is a bit lower dps, but a lot more mana efficient (although not health efficient, you will require more healing than with SoC + lifetap). Despite the lower damage throughput it still has its uses, especially for destruction warlocks that benefit from the threat reduction on it. It can also be used to instantly blow up Seed of Corruption.

Rain of Fire has received a boost, and is a low risk, mana efficient, ranged aoe spell now. Unfortunately its damage is nowhere near competitive with either Hellfire or SoC.

Aoe cap: if your seed of corruption detonates for more than 13580 on all targets combined, it will do less damage. When this happens, the detonation damage will be scaled down so that the total is 13580. For example, if you hit 10 targets with it, you will hit each for 1358. This reduction is done after calculating +damage gear, talents and buffs so it is the same for every gear and spec. The exceptions are crits and damage debuffs (like CoS), those will allow you to hit individual targets for more.


Curse selection
Curse of Shadow - Scales nicely with increasing number of Shadow Priests, Arcane Mages, and Warlocks (and hunters, to a lesser extent). Usually the default curse to put on an enemy. If you use the level 60 version it will not get knocked off by hitting the debuff cap.

Curse of the Elements - Boosts fire/frost mages, Warlock fire spells. An obvious choice if you have several of these present. As with CoS, if you use the level 60 version it will not get knocked off by hitting the debuff cap.

Curse of Doom - Very high Damage-Per-Casting-Time. Does not get a bonus from Shadow Mastery, for reasons unknown. Demonic Sacrifice with a Succubus will boost the damage by 15%, and ISB will boost it by 20%. Amplify Curse will only boost the base damage of 4200, so it's 2100 extra base damage. Curse of Doom can not crit.

Curse of Agony - Ideal for spamming on tanked trash, regardless of spec. Can also be used as an alternative to Curse of Doom, if that one is not an option. CoA is advisable on bosses that reset aggro (unless you can time CoD well), or on anything that will live 24 seconds but not 60. It can outdamage Curse of Doom on a strict dps basis, but you'll need to refresh it more often, resulting in a lower Damage Per Casting Time.

At around 1250 spellpower, affliction warlocks with imp CoA, and Shadow Mastery will obtain around equal dps with CoA over unamped CoD. More spellpower will favor CoA.

Curse of Recklessness - Stacks with every other armor reducing debuff, and will typically increase melee and hunter damage by around 6% if FF and 5xSunder Armor are present, according to http://elitistjerks.com/498690-post35.html. You typically want as many armor reducing debuffs on a boss as possible, since each one adds more (Increasing Returns, as opposed to Diminishing). It will make the enemy hit slightly harder, though. To be avoided when the boss has an ability that is based on his melee attack power, such as Mortal Strike or Cleave. Useful on enemies that don't hit hard enough for a tank to keep aggro, it will help with their threat generation on those by a small amount.

CoD vs CoR: Which one is more profitable depends on the raid setup. More physical dps means CoR becomes better, obviously. Physical Raid Dps needs to exceed (CoD damage / 3.6) for CoR to be the better choice. (CoD dps = CoD damage/60, and CoR dps = Physical dps *0.06). Note however that you need to refresh CoD twice as often.

Curse of Exhaustion - Very limited use. Typical use is for Striders during the Vashj fight, and on Mount Hyjal trash.

Curse of Weakness - Reduces attack power, but it doesn't stack with the other ap reducing abilities (Demoralizing Shout/Roar). It will get overwritten by a talented Warrior Demo Shout, which any raid community should have. The only possible use for it is if you are raiding without a Warrior and have a Paladin tanking.



Immolate vs Shadow Bolt

Immolate has a much higher base damage then Shadow Bolt, and both have around the same spellpower coefficient (85%). For this reason, at low amounts of spellpower, keeping Immolate up is clearly a better choice. Some well geared warlocks drop this spell in favor of Shadow Bolt due to any combination of these factors:

- Higher hit/crit/haste rating benefits Shadowbolt.
- ISB debuff
- Most debuffs tend to favor SB instead (absence of CoE, Imp Scorch, CoS, ISB)
- More talents into SB (Shadow Mastery, Demonic Sacrifice, Shadow And Flame)
- More items that benefit SB ([Ritssyn's Lost Pendant], [Orb of the Soul-Eater], [Nethervoid Cloak], [Boots of the Shifting Nightmare], FSW and Soulfrost)
- Debuff slot shortage
- Higher mana cost per point of damage, so more life tap down time

Whether it's worth it for you should be checked with the appropriate tools: ShadowSeer, Leulier's sheet, DrDamage (all linked below). Even a lower damage-per-casting-time, it is worth it occasionally if you don't think you'll have the time to get a SB off or can't risk threat bursts.

Fire vs Shadow

Prior to 2.4 there was no choice. With the buff to incinerate, it seems fire has become a viable raid spec. Fire has higher personal dps while shadow still has ISB. I haven't been able to determine yet whether the gain in personal dps can outbalance the loss on ISB. More research is needed. The answer will probably be dependent on the raid setup.


Resistances and Spell Penetration
The difference between level 60 and level 70 version of CoE/CoS: level 60 CoS has lower reduction (75 vs 88) but the same damage modifier. The level 60 version has higher priority, meaning it will not be pushed off by other debuffs. This is a relic from times before 40 debuff slots, and that the higher rank has lower priority is considered a bug. If you are having issues with debuffs being lost, use the lower rank.

With a few notable exceptions (Felhunters in Hyjal, Supremus vs Fire, and Illidari Council) enemies have no resistances above 75. Therefore spell penetration is considered useless in PVE in the majority of fights.

All mobs higher level than you an innate resistance, resulting in partial resists that can not be mitigated. Partial resists seem to happen around 15% of the time, resulting in roughly 3% damage mitigation.


Warlock tanking
For Leotheras tanking, there are a few good posts here.

Additional tips and tricks
- Obviously, bring a healthy amount of shards to raids. This is especially important for demo/destro, since they often summon demons that require Soul Shards.

- There is little reason to use anything but Rank 1 of Drain Soul.

- Soulwells are very useful, and it might be convenient to have all three variants in a raid community. Healthstones of different qualities (0/2, 1/2 and 2/2 improved) count as different items, meaning everyone can carry up to 3 healthstones this way. They still share the same cooldown of two minutes, though. Healthstones can crit (based on user spell crit chance) and will heal for 150% in that case.


Tools for measuring DPS
SWStats (or any other synching damage meter)
The other warlock dps spreadsheet is the default source for warlock theorycrafting.
ShadowSeer Beta - Measures ISB uptime, and will estimate benefits of crit/hit/haste rating and spelldamage bonuses. not working in v2.4
lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character - Gives you a gear list according to stats you fill in
Leulier's ISB simulator - predicts ISB uptime using a simulated model
DrDamage - WowAce Wiki - will give you in-game theorycrafting

Other
Debuffcount counts the number of debuffs on a target, useful when you suspect dots are falling off.
Loot Rank - replacement for lootzor
Warcrafter - create gear sets and get stats, works well with planning and the spreadsheet.
Demon - Debuff Monitor (pDebuffList2) - replacement for debuffcount and debuff filter in one


Thanks for all the feedback and contributions!

Last edited by Arelenda : Yesterday at 12:28 PM.
#2SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Tacitus
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post

- You never want to lose a single tic of unstable mutation, corruption or agony.
Erm?

Also, in general you should always gear hit first for bosses, then focusing on spell damage (according to the spreadsheet it gives you more DPS than crit, even with Ruin).

Here's a good site for your trinket choices.
SimulationCraft/Trinkets/Warlock - Shadowpriest.com Wiki

Last edited by Tacitus : 10/12/07 at 5:07 AM. Reason: adding stuff
#3SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3SchLing
Great summery, but isn't Stamina something more important to a Demo lock than what you make it out to be?
#4SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stangg
Just skimming over it, this post seems to have been rushed slightly, could do with cleaning up some of the mistakes, as pointed out above "unstable mutation" and also "There is no fixed rotation since your dots are on". On what? Just a couple of examples.

With some of the information a link to sources would also be beneficial, for instance, a link to Nyarlotheps (spelling) write up on demonology is a great resource for people looking to move into this spec. I also remember seeing somewhere a useful tool that can generate figures for raid ISB uptime, I know it's not much help me just telling you these without providing links myself but I don't have time at the moment, if it hasn't been updated at the weekend I'll start searching.

Just some suggestions, I was considering making a consolidation post myself over the weekend, but there is an awful lot of information to trawl through and reference, I wasn't expecting one to appear so quickly.
#5SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 Eph
Couple of things that I see:

The first two Affliction builds links are switched.
Title of each build doesn't really match the actual spec, could just call it "PVE Affliction", instead of "- affliction style - Unstable Affliction (41/0/20)"
Perhaps an explanation of how Malediction is equal to 2.7%, I haven't seen the math on that.
Unimproved CoW is equal to a Warrior's unimproved Demo Shout, but an improved Demo Shout is stronger than an Improved CoW.
The level 60 rank of CoS and CoE will not be knocked off on a debuff capped (40 debuffs) target.
Curse of Doom's damage is not increased by Shadow Mastery.
The ideal level of hit is 16% when fighting bosses and can be reached with 202 hit from gear, or 164 hit with an Elemental Shaman's Totem of Wrath (37.8 hit), or 152 hit with an Alliance Draenei's Aura (12.6 hit.)
Add [Void Star Talisman] to the Demonology gear.

And just a little nitpick to clean it up a little, maybe take out alot of the extra spaces between sections and bullets and capitalize the section titles.


I'll think of more later.
#6SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3doogless
Originally Posted by SchLing View Post
Great summery, but isn't Stamina something more important to a Demo lock than what you make it out to be?
No, it's just not as useless for Demo as it is for other builds.

If you're stacking stamina for the purpose of getting it back as spell damage via DK, you only get 4.5% of stamina as spell damage. Clearly a 9 spell damage gem is way more useful than one giving 12 stamina. Getting stamina (and to a lesser extent, intellect) back as spell damage is a really nice benefit of a Demo spec, since tier gear especially is loaded down with it, but stamina is not something to specifically itemize for.

If you're stacking stamina to keep your pet alive, you need to reevaluate either your pet control skills or whether a Felguard is a viable pet for a given fight. Your pet gets 30% of your stamina, so in order to give him, say, 500 more HP, you would need to itemize for 166 stamina instead of other stats, which is a significant DPS loss. If your pet is dying, stacking stamina is probably not the way to keep him alive - you either need some specific items (2 piece tier 5/void star talisman), a different group composition (read: one with a shadow priest), or better micro skills to keep him out of AoE.
#7SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Stangg View Post
Just skimming over it, this post seems to have been rushed slightly, could do with cleaning up some of the mistakes, as pointed out above "unstable mutation" and also "There is no fixed rotation since your dots are on". On what? Just a couple of examples.

With some of the information a link to sources would also be beneficial, for instance, a link to Nyarlotheps (spelling) write up on demonology is a great resource for people looking to move into this spec. I also remember seeing somewhere a useful tool that can generate figures for raid ISB uptime.
All fixed. I can't find the demonology guide so a link would be appreciated.

Thanks for helping me clean it up.
#8SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3doogless
Nyarlathotep's compiled guide for Felguard raiding can be found here - Raiding With Felguard (SSC, TK, Hyjal, BT) - The Warlocks Den
#9SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Chronitia
Considering the vast size of the warlock megathread, a summary like this for oft-asked questions is a useful thing, thank you.

I feel there is much room for improvement though. Just skimming it I noticed a few things.

1.) Add a section for a 0/40/21 guide.
2.) In the affliction section, emphasize SB spam between dot applications. A common noob mistake is to use drain life.
3.) Also in the affliction section, you tell people to refresh like crazy so they don't lose a tick. This will most likely cause people to refresh a dot before it expires, clipping the last tick and losing a lot of damage. You should tell them to focus on minimizing the gap between dots, but that ~1sec of downtime is normal and fine, and is better than clipping a tick.
4.) Clean up the language. This should not be a casual "this talent is cool" type of thing. Imagine you are writing a thesis. Make statements and support them. If there is a tradeoff, present the tradeoff and provide a conclusion. For example:

Shadowfury is a really nifty talent, but it doesn't shine in raids. It's usable in specific encounters and very good in those. But its use is rather limited in raids in general. That's why most people default to using 0/21/40, taking a few subpar talents to obtain Demonic Sacrifice, which boost shadow damage by 15%. I'll focus on that one here.


This build focuses primarily on Shadow Bolts with a high crit rate. At low gear levels, fire spells are viable, but they scale worse compared to their shadow counterparts. The key thing is to keep the Improved Shadow Bolt Debuff (ISB) up as much as possible, since it provides 20% extra shadow damage to the entire raid (including dots - this is a common misconception).


This spec scales best with gear, due to the high return of spelldamage and crits on Shadow Bolts. There has been some debate about what gear is needed for it to outperform affliction, and opinions are divided. Some people state it requires Hyjal/BT gear, others claim it rivals affliction dps even in early SSC.
Would be better written in a straightforward and confident manner:

This build focuses on three key talents in demonology and destruction: demonic sacrifice (DS), ruin, and Shadow and Flame (SnF). The result is 21/40 scales with gear better than any other build. The order of priority is Hit > damage > crit. The actual coefficients can best be determined using the spreadsheet linked below, or for a rough guide, use the shadowpriest.com wiki linked below.

Q.) Fire or Shadow? Due to the following factors, shadow is always preferred for pve:

1.) ISB generation
2.) Shadowbolt's superior damage coefficient
3.) Prevalence of shadow synergy in raids including shadow weaving and ISB

Q.) When does itemization cause this build to rival or surpass affliction?

1.) Affliction gets a huge head start due to tailoring gear, hit capping with dots quickly via suppression, and the mechanics of dots putting spell damage to work while needing virtually no other stats.
2.) While crit is only important if you are the raid's ISB factory, damage and hit are both very important. You should be hit capped (202 hit rating, less if you are always partied with a Draenei or can count on wrath of air totem). Spell damage also scales very well due to shadow and flame. Consult a dps spreadsheet for exact weighting of hit, dmg, and crit for you.
3.) Generally, SSC/Tk is when the lack of affliction upgrades become apparent, and bolting specs come into their own.
#10SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Thanks a lot for the feedback and contribution!

I have some issues with the following statements though:

Originally Posted by Chronitia View Post
1.) Affliction gets a huge head start due to tailoring gear
It's a great set for any warlock, regardless of spec. Demonologists and Destruction warlocks love spellpower too. I'll leave it in the middle.


Originally Posted by Chronitia View Post
While crit is only important if you are the raid's ISB factory, damage and hit are both very important.
In a starting raid group, especially if crit ratios are low and more dots are present, the ISB debuff is less likely to be overwritten. If it's not overwritten, then it boosts the next 4 hits by 20%, and all dots in between too. That's a sizeable damage bonus.

And I don't see how one single warlock can provide ISB uptime for the entire raid, so the concept of an ISB factory shouldn't be in the guide, in my opinion.


Everything else has been merged into the guide. Thanks!
#11SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Arveene
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Thanks a lot for the feedback and contribution!

I have some issues with the following statements though:



It's a great set for any warlock, regardless of spec. Demonologists and Destruction warlocks love spellpower too. I'll leave it in the middle.
The tailoring set (Frozen Shadoweave) lacks any of the other stats that 0/21/40 needs, mainly any hit or crit. The reason why the Tailoring set is so much better for affliction is because of the fact that you can hit cap your DoTs so easily and crit isn't as important of a stat in an affliction build. We love spellpower, but like you said yourself in the OP hit>haste>damage/crit.



Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
In a starting raid group, especially if crit ratios are low and more dots are present, the ISB debuff is less likely to be overwritten. If it's not overwritten, then it boosts the next 4 hits by 20%, and all dots in between too. That's a sizeable damage bonus.

And I don't see how one single warlock can provide ISB uptime for the entire raid, so the concept of an ISB factory shouldn't be in the guide, in my opinion.
This is one of the main reasons to have a destro lock. The biggest benefit of a destro lock to a raid is the increased ISB up-time. You sacrifice being able to have a pet out and all the other benefits of an affliction spec for more crit and more emphasis on SB spam for more ISB uptime. In addition to the raid benefit, your own damage will scale better with gear from later on in Hyjal/BT.

Last edited by Arveene : 10/12/07 at 1:54 PM.
#12SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Arveene View Post
The tailoring set (Frozen Shadoweave) lacks any of the other stats that 0/21/40 needs, mainly any hit or crit. The reason why the Tailoring set is so much better for affliction is because of the fact that you can hit cap your DoTs so easily and crit isn't as important of a stat in an affliction build. We love spellpower, but like you said yourself in the OP hit>haste>damage/crit.
Points taken. I'm guessing my experiences in this matter (I used FSW 0/21/40 until BT, always been near top of damage meter) are coloring my views. Any suggestions as to how to improve it?
#13SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arveene
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Points taken. I'm guessing my experiences in this matter (I used FSW 0/21/40 until BT, always been near top of damage meter) are coloring my views. Any suggestions as to how to improve it?
Well, what kind of gear did you have in your other slots? I would also guess that in Kara with Frozen Shadoweave you started off as an affliction spec, no?
#14SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Chronitia
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
It's a great set for any warlock, regardless of spec. Demonologists and Destruction warlocks love spellpower too. I'll leave it in the middle.

In a starting raid group, especially if crit ratios are low and more dots are present, the ISB debuff is less likely to be overwritten. If it's not overwritten, then it boosts the next 4 hits by 20%, and all dots in between too. That's a sizeable damage bonus.

And I don't see how one single warlock can provide ISB uptime for the entire raid, so the concept of an ISB factory shouldn't be in the guide, in my opinion.
Frozen shadowweave provides all the stats you need for affliction, to an almost absurd extent. It is possibly the most min-maxed itemization strategy I've ever seen on a set of gear. Socketed appropriately, it provides more spell damage than tier 5, and is available the moment you ding 70.

While it gives a good leg up to any spec due to it's early availablility, it is only the affliction playstyle that it truely fuels. As said before me, it does not give you the hit (and crit) you need so badly with 21/40.

In regards to ISB uptime:

SimulationCraft/ImprovedShadowBolt - Shadowpriest.com Wiki

One 21/40 warlock with 400 crit rating experiences virtually the same ISB uptime (0.64 vs 0.67) as five 21/40 warlocks with 200 crit rating.

All five warlocks upgrading from 200 crit rating to 300 crit rating brings the uptime from 0.67 to 0.73. A 50% increase in crit rating by FIVE members of the raid increases the total ISB uptime by less than 10%.

Also any look at a DPS spreadsheet will show crit rating providing 60-70% the benefit of spell damage, and maybe half the benefit of spell hit.
#15SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Cohren
There is definitely more favorable DoT rotations than others. I think the most common or most widely agreed upon rotations are:

CoS/CoE/CoR:

CoS/CoE/CoR-->UA-->Corr-->Immo-->SL

CoA:

UA-->CoA-->Corr-->Immo-->SL
#16SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arveene
Originally Posted by Cohren View Post
There is definitely more favorable DoT rotations than others. I think the most common or most widely agreed upon rotations are:

CoS/CoE/CoR:

CoS/CoE/CoR-->UA-->Corr-->Immo-->SL

CoA:

UA-->CoA-->Corr-->Immo-->SL

The problem with a DoT rotation like Curse --> UA --> Corr --> Immo --> SL is your UA, Corr, and Immo timer will sync up every time you refresh them (assuming no resist).
Ex. UA applied at the same time as Corr (1.5 sec GCD) Immo (1.5 cast). When Immo is applied both UA / Corr have 15 seconds on their durations.

A better rotation would be something like Curse --> UA --> Corr --> SL --> Immo.
#17SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Silverstorm
I would say the rotation to avoid is UA -> Corr -> Immo. However, that does provide ease of maintenance because all three end, so you know you have to refresh all three at the same time.

Switching the rotations around works for a a little while, but given the 18 seconds of UA/Corr vs. 15 seconds of Immo, they are going to line up again anyway, and you'll lose uptime on Immo, most likely.

I'm playing around with dropping Immolate from my rotation (43/0/18 spec) because the DPCT is roughly equal to DPCT of Shadowbolt in our raids (no Fire mages right now, all Arcane). So I have an Immolate that only gets Misery to buff it, compared to a Shadowbolt with Shadow Mastery, Shadow Weaving, Maledicted CoS (from me), Misery, and potential ISB debuff (and maybe something else....I can't remember right now).
#18SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Chronitia View Post
Frozen shadowweave provides all the stats you need for affliction, to an almost absurd extent. It is possibly the most min-maxed itemization strategy I've ever seen on a set of gear. Socketed appropriately, it provides more spell damage than tier 5, and is available the moment you ding 70.

While it gives a good leg up to any spec due to it's early availablility, it is only the affliction playstyle that it truely fuels. As said before me, it does not give you the hit (and crit) you need so badly with 21/40.
No, but it is so absurdly good that you can compensate for the lack of hit on your other gear, or get the socket bonus for +9 to hit on the set. +damage isn't exactly useless to a destruction warlock either, they get even more out of it than an affliction warlock does.


About ISB theory:

Unfortunately, I don't believe the ISB can be accurate measured by any spreadsheet, as the debuff application lags a LOT after the crit. When I wrote ShadowSeer to monitor it, I logged delays of 0.7s, sometimes up to 1.2 seconds. Good luck measuring that with a spreadsheet.

The debuff removal can also lag, resulting in extra hits being amped.

It also can't take into account how much dots are on the target (dots get amped too). I'll trust ShadowSeer over any spreadsheet, given how much the game mechanics differ from what they're supposed to do in theory. It's still beta, but I think the ISB data it gives me is reliable enough for analysis.

Last edited by Arelenda : 10/12/07 at 5:38 PM.
#19SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3djmoccasins
I really think you should put a 7/43/11 build up there its probably much better damage than the 0/41/20 and less down time and is good all around for PVE and PVP.
#20SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by djmoccasins View Post
I really think you should put a 7/43/11 build up there its probably much better damage than the 0/41/20 and less down time and is good all around for PVE and PVP.
Can you be a bit more specific? I don't mind adding specs I'm not familiar with myself, but I'll need a lot more information than "7/43/11".

Also, I'm modeling raiding specs. PVP viability isn't really considered.
#21SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3djmoccasins
Oh I'm sorry Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is probably the most popular maybe switching a few points. It provides great damage IF you can keep the pet alive and the instant corruption makes up for the lost crit from the 0/41/20 build
#22SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by djmoccasins View Post
Oh I'm sorry Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is probably the most popular maybe switching a few points. It provides great damage IF you can keep the pet alive and the instant corruption makes up for the lost crit from the 0/41/20 build
I think I got the idea.

I don't see how gaining 0.5 seconds on a spell that you cast once every 18 seconds will increase your damage over 5% crit, provided you have ISB. I'll add 1/40/19 to the list, though.

Instant corruptions is nice when pvping, but for raid scenario's, I doubt it's 5 talent points in a tree you're not specialising in.
#23SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Antoine
The real gain is in Improved Lifetap. Improved Corruption helps too, but not as much as imp LT.
#24SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Good point. I can't tell whether it's worth it on the fly. Added.
#25SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 frmorrison
I think you should add the PvP/PvE hybrid Demo spec, 7/44/10 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
The gain of imp Life Tap is very high, since it means 20% fewer Life Taps.

Also add the note that 1 point in mana feed is enough to allow the Pet to spam Cleave for over 5 minutes.


For 21/40, you should add a comment about Fire destro Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft, saying it is a good spec if you don't have a shadow priest in the raid, and it is more mana efficient (although losing damage over shadow bolt even without a shadow priest around, due to Incinerate only getting 91.4% +damage added to it).
#26SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Trickykid
I would point out that for a single shadow lock ISB uptime is very easy to estimate using 1-(1-c)^4.

Expanding that out for a whole raid can be done relatively simply by weighting the crit rate of each member by his share of nukes on the target. Using this weighted crit rate in teh above expression will yield a pretty accurate reading for expected ISB uptime in raids and helps to estimate the gains of crit rating on items outside of personal DPS.

EDIT:
I would also add that more than most other classes (puuuure speculation) warlocks have a larger variance in their DPCT available to them at any point in time. For example, an affliction lock's DPCT over time varies depending on which DoTs he has active (and what procs/buffs/debuffs are going). Once all his dots are up, his DPCT drops since he's forced to use his lowest DPCT spell, shadow bolt. Saving LT/DP for those low-DPCT valleys, using pots when you have no mana but are in a high DPCT peak, and similar decisions will increase DPS quite a bit over time.

Last edited by Trickykid : 10/12/07 at 7:01 PM.
#27SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3KnThrak
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Curse selection

(...)

Curse of Agony - Ideal for spamming on tanked trash, regardless of spec. Can also be used as an alternative to Curse of Doom, if that one is not an option. CoA is advisable on bosses that reset aggro (unless you can time CoD well), or on anything that will live 24 seconds but not 60. It can outdamage Curse of Doom on a strict dps basis, but you'll need to refresh it more often, resulting in a lower Damage Per Casting Time.

(Editor's note : for all reasonable specs and gear quality I looked at, Curse of Doom outdamaged Curse of Agony if you replace the lost casting time with Shadow Bolt spam. This seems to go against the affliction Warlock love for CoA. If I'm wrong about this, please correct me)

(...)
This is something I've put a lot of thought into while watching myself raid, and I've come to the conclusion that the biggest factor of evaluating CoA vs CoD for a damage-only basis (ignoring special stuff like say Curator) is the bossfight itself.

Due to the lost time, as you say, CoD beats CoA on it's own. However, that is assuming one is always casting when Curse of Agony needs a refresh.

Depending on bossfight, it can very well happen that at say 50% of the times when you'd need to cast CoA again, you're moving anyways, not casting shadow bolts. In those situations CoA's superior damage (and superior scaling I think, although this is off top of my head, no calculator at hand) can outdo CoD due to not actually losing much casting time at all.
#28SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Arelenda
Originally Posted by KnThrak View Post
This is something I've put a lot of thought into while watching myself raid, and I've come to the conclusion that the biggest factor of evaluating CoA vs CoD for a damage-only basis (ignoring special stuff like say Curator) is the bossfight itself.

Due to the lost time, as you say, CoD beats CoA on it's own. However, that is assuming one is always casting when Curse of Agony needs a refresh.
Good point. I hadn't thought of that.

However
- The type of fight is rather rare
- Affliction locks probably have better things to cast
- You can also life tap (or dark pact) during movements instead. This is in fact what I usually do, as 0/21/40.
- And if you need to be moving that much, you might want to stick with CoD since it requires less attention, allowing you to focus on what you're running from in the first place
- the difference is marginal at best. Over a two minute duration you hit 2 CoD (8400+4*sp) or 5xCOA (5x1356+6*sp). For affliction warlocks with imp CoA it probably is better, since CoA gets 10% from Shadow Mastery and 10% from imp CoA.

I'll mention it in the guide.

Last edited by Arelenda : 10/12/07 at 11:42 PM.
#29SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3PSGarak
Specific notes for common raiding thingies:
Darkmoon Card Crusade: Any spec, but especially affliction, has a really easy time keeping this stacked, and getting it stacked while the tank builds threat, because we have spammable low-cost low-agro long-range curses. It's often worth the time to debuff a target to keep the stack rolling.

Clicky Trinkets and affliction builds: Clicky trinkets should be saved for when all of your DoTs are going to be refreshed in a small window. If at all possible, on 20-second clickies, try to double-tip corruption and unstable affliction. It's worth saving the trinket for a few seconds, it probably won't cost you an extra activation.

Procs and DoTs: Recasting a DoT and overriding a previous one is never, ever worth it, no matter how awesome your proc is. You lose half a tick on average, and the damage gain from the amped DoT is not worth that half a tick. For example, 2pcT4 proc is 135 damage. Over the course of a corruption this comes out to 170ish before debuffs. The lost half-tick of corruption is 250 at that gear level. Ignore your procs, and keep casting as if nothing happened.
In a similar vein: while you want as close to 100% DoT uptime as you can manage, you want to absolutely avoid clipping DoTs, and also avoid waiting for DoTs finish. If a DoT is half a second out, cast a shadowbolt and refresh it late.
The exception is UA, and untalented corruption: it has a cast time. Remember this.

Finally, affliction builds actually do scale really well, it's just that they only scale with damage since crit is marginal and we hit-cap easily. Higher-end gear tends to spend a lot of itemization points on crit and haste, which help destruction far more. It's not exactly a matter of scaling, it's a matter of scaling with the itemization that we will actually encounter in higher raid settings.

And yeah, I hear enough about 0/40/21 that it should probably be mentioned. It plays essentially like a felguard build with a sexybus instead of a felguard, but it gears more for crit. Example spec(?):
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warlock -> Talent Calculator

As far as affliction builds go, I would list this:
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warlock -> Talent Calculator
as the absolute bare-bones affliction build, with most of the rest being determine by gear, playstyle, and raid group composition. You will note it's not a viable build: it requires fleshing out. I don't know how to make wowhead's talents do that.
#30SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
After doing tons of test and theorycrafting and writing a complete addon to measure my damage, I've discovered that I've been downranking Immolate for about a year and a half now.

I must have forgotten to update the spell when I learned the AQ20 book. And because it wasn't top rank, it didn't get autoupdated when I learned the new max rank in TBC.

No wonder I always hated fire so much.


So uh... always use top rank of your dps spells.

Thanks for the useful posts, I'll merge them with the guide as soon as possible.
#31SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
jayowen
For those who raid with a pet out - Sporeling Snacks work on warlock pets (20 stam and spirit).

I'm not sure how long it's been like this as I've only tried felguard recently, but they get the same greater blessings as warriors. Worth knowing when you want to swap light for might, but keep kings for example.

Last edited by jayowen : 10/13/07 at 7:20 AM.
#32SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 frmorrison
In 2.3 there is a new food that gives 20 str/spirit to the pet that is a bit better than stam.
#33SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Gruknok
Hey. Ive got this problem. We had a fight with my guilds warlock CO cause of other warlocks performance. Ive noticed a 300-400 dps diference on single target encounters and asked whats the problem.

The answer was: "warlock 1 is in the tank group and he has raid buffing talents so you cant count his dps....... warlock2 is affliction till he ups his +hit, affliction is a pore dps raid bild i dont really want any in the guild. That leaves warlock 3 his gems dont go well with his gear then his spec sucks! ive told him what i want from him, if hes still dose nothing about it i an going to kick him................"

I dont believe that builds,group setup can make your dps get stuck at ~600, 700 at best while others in top 5 do ~900-1000 dps. Raid dps 9500-10000. ~12000 dps on hydross/morogrim. Their gear is about the same lvl as rest in guild.

builds
lock CO World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents

~maxet hit, ~19 crit, ~1270 spell damage

lock 1 (tank group) World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents

arround 936 spell damage, 15.44% to crit, 125 hit rating

lock 2 World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents

1010 shadowl damage, 141 hit rating, 15% crit chance

Lock 3 World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents

899 spell damage, 43 penetration, 54 hit rating (horrible i guess), 18.60% crit chance

The stats may be slightly diferent cause of grinding/raiding gear and stuff, none was wearing pvp gear though. Shouldnt be much diference id say.

Now can anyone confirm that the group setup or hit chance can be the reason of the huge dps diference? Or is it actualy slacking?

What would you suggest in such situation? If theres any kind person that would also want some more details i could pm reports and armory links.

Last edited by Gruknok : 10/15/07 at 4:57 AM.
#34SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 Eph
Haste is 15.7 = 1%, right?
Curse of Recklessness, which bosses in BC have an ability based on melee damage?
#35SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nas
Originally Posted by Gruknok View Post
Hey. Ive got this problem. We had a fight with my guilds warlock CO cause of other warlocks performance. Ive noticed a 300-400 dps diference on single target encounters and asked whats the problem.

The answer was: "warlock 1 is in the tank group and he has raid buffing talents so you cant count his dps....... warlock2 is affliction till he ups his +hit, affliction is a pore dps raid bild i dont really want any in the guild. That leaves warlock 3 his gems dont go well with his gear then his spec sucks! ive told him what i want from him, if hes still dose nothing about it i an going to kick him................"

I dont believe that builds,group setup can make your dps get stuck at ~600, 700 at best while others in top 5 do ~900-1000 dps. Raid dps 9500-10000. ~12000 dps on hydross/morogrim. Their gear is about the same lvl as rest in guild.

builds
lock CO World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents

~maxet hit, ~19 crit, ~1270 spell damage

lock 1 (tank group) World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents

arround 936 spell damage, 15.44% to crit, 125 hit rating

lock 2 World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents

779 spell damage, 141 hit rating, 15% crit chance

Lock 3 World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents

899 spell damage, 43 penetration, 54 hit rating (horrible i guess), 18.60% crit chance

The stats may be slightly diferent cause of grinding/raiding gear and stuff, none was wearing pvp gear though. Shouldnt be much diference id say.

Now can anyone confirm that the group setup or hit chance can be the reason of the huge dps diference? Or is it actualy slacking?

What would you suggest in such situation? If theres any kind person that would also want some more details i could pm reports and armory links.
First of all, Spell Damage is very misleading, I would very much rather have their Shadow Damage instead, but since I don't I'll just make a very rough analysis of what is going on here.


Going off the info you have posted:

The Warlock CO seems to have quite a gear advantage over the rest, even when accounting for Demonic Aegis. Capping hit is very important, and he has done well by capping it. As for his spec I am assuming is uses a Soul Linked Succubus to DPS? If so then his spec makes sense, otherwise I am not too sure, as I haven't heard of anyone using such a spec for anything other than Succy DPS (which is pretty decent damage).

Warlock 1: Firstly this warlock is probably always providing a utility curse instead of a damage one, using a damage one would net him an extra 100-150 DPS roughly. Secondly, if I were him i'd drop Imp. CoA (as he's always on CoS/CoE anyway) and put those 2 points into Soul Siphon, 10% threat reduction to affliction damage is nothing to be scoffed at. As for his gear, his hit is low, if he has any gems other than hit ones or ones that contribute towards a hit socket bonus then he should probably regem. His crit is a bit high for an affliction warlock at his gear level (i'm guessing pre-SSC mostly), so I suspect he's using either crit gems or is favoring crit heavy items over something far more useful to his spec, such as hit.

Warlock 2: His gear doesn't seem to be too good, he has very low spell damage and way too much crit for somone at his gear level, again, I am guessing he either has crit heavy items or the wrong gems, might want to consider getting some more hit either way. Looking at his talents, the affliction tree is fine, has some talents I wouldn't get but that is a matter of personal preference, he does have all the important ones and that is what matters. However, I would get Destructive Reach in Destruction if I were him, instead of putting 5 points into Demonic Embrace. Then again, I somehow doubt he is having threat issues with his gear setup (unless he has a *lot* more shadow damage than spell damage, which is possible), but if he does, then getting 10% less threat on his Shadowbolts/Immolates would help him output that bit more damage.

Warlock 3: Yeah, 18.6% crit as affliction, very low hit and spell penetration (proven to be a useless PvE talent, save for very few bosses such as Supremus, and a number of trash mobs) lead me to believe he really doesn't know what gear suits him best. Need more hit, ditch the crit unless it comes with a piece that is great otherwise, and no spell penetration other than the cloak enchant (20). As for his spec, it is good, it's a common malediction utility build, and you would want two Warlocks with malediction assuming your raid has its fair share of fire mages. And if he already is providing a utility curse most of the time, then that would account for ~100 dps he would have if he were on a damage curse.

As far as group setup, if none of the warlocks save the CO are getting a Shadow Priest/Elemental Shaman then I would say that could well contribute to the DPS difference, as well. However, they have other things to worry about right now, such as optimising their gear and specs in some cases.

I would also like to touch on the Warlock CO’s comment about Affliction being a horrible DPS spec and that he doesn't want any in the raid save the "utility warlock". At the gear level your guild is at (judging by your own gear and by your mention of early SSC fights as a basis of comparison) Affliction is definitely a more viable spec than Destruction, I personally was affliction till we first stepped into Mount Hyjal, and with the right itemization and dot uptime it is far from being a "poor DPS spec".
#36SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Silverstorm
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
Clicky Trinkets and affliction builds: Clicky trinkets should be saved for when all of your DoTs are going to be refreshed in a small window. If at all possible, on 20-second clickies, try to double-tip corruption and unstable affliction. It's worth saving the trinket for a few seconds, it probably won't cost you an extra activation.

[snip]

Finally, affliction builds actually do scale really well, it's just that they only scale with damage since crit is marginal and we hit-cap easily. Higher-end gear tends to spend a lot of itemization points on crit and haste, which help destruction far more. It's not exactly a matter of scaling, it's a matter of scaling with the itemization that we will actually encounter in higher raid settings.
Double dipping on 20 second trinkets for both UA and Corruption is going to be quite difficult, since you have 1.5 seconds of UA cast + 18 seconds of dotting before the 2nd Corruption can be cast. It's almost impossible for me, even with /stopcasting. Hopefully, the changes in 2.3 to spell casting will alleviate this issue.

As far as affliction scaling and hit-capping....yes, it's difficult to scale beyond t5 content, since the gear moves toward crit and haste. However, we hit-cap just like any other warlock. Many people mistakenly count Suppression toward hit-capping. True, it helps your DoTs, which are a majority of your damage, but Shadowbolts are still a significant portion of an affliction lock's DPS.

As far as affliction wisdom goes, here's my experiences (43/0/18, 6/6 SSC, 3/4 TK):

I recently dropped Immolate from my rotation due to poor scaling and no raid synergy (all mages went arcane), and as a result, my Shadowbolt damage has increased it's percentage of my damage. My DPS increased slightly, probably due to less DoT uptime issues given the differing lengths of UA/Corr and Immo. I continue to use Siphon Life, as I'm nearly healer independent if I take no additional damage, however, it's generally a filler spell to get me to the end of a UA/Corr cycle, or cast while moving, provided I don't need mana.

I am still very competitive with my damage, despite being the Malediction lock, usually placing top 5 behind the arcane mages, the other affliction warlock, and occasionally a BM hunter. The additional 125-150 DPS from CoA would easily let me catch up, but the increased raid DPS is easily more than 125-150 when you consider we have 3-4 locks, 3 arcane mages, 2 shadow priests, and a boomkin. Unfortunately, the other locks vary from night to night (we have 5, and the two of us that are most consistent are me and the ISB Destro lock).

Lesson: Look carefully at your raid makeup and determine if Immolate is worth it. If it's close, test it both ways.
#37SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Gruknok
Originally Posted by Nas View Post
First of all, Spell Damage is very misleading, I would very much rather have their Shadow Damage instead, but since I don't I'll just make a very rough analysis of what is going on here.


Going off the info you have posted:

The Warlock CO seems to have quite a gear advantage over the rest, even when accounting for Demonic Aegis. Capping hit is very important, and he has done well by capping it. As for his spec I am assuming is uses a Soul Linked Succubus to DPS? If so then his spec makes sense, otherwise I am not too sure, as I haven't heard of anyone using such a spec for anything other than Succy DPS (which is pretty decent damage).

Warlock 1: Firstly this warlock is probably always providing a utility curse instead of a damage one, using a damage one would net him an extra 100-150 DPS roughly. Secondly, if I were him i'd drop Imp. CoA (as he's always on CoS/CoE anyway) and put those 2 points into Soul Siphon, 10% threat reduction to affliction damage is nothing to be scoffed at. As for his gear, his hit is low, if he has any gems other than hit ones or ones that contribute towards a hit socket bonus then he should probably regem. His crit is a bit high for an affliction warlock at his gear level (i'm guessing pre-SSC mostly), so I suspect he's using either crit gems or is favoring crit heavy items over something far more useful to his spec, such as hit.

Warlock 2: His gear doesn't seem to be too good, he has very low spell damage and way too much crit for somone at his gear level, again, I am guessing he either has crit heavy items or the wrong gems, might want to consider getting some more hit either way. Looking at his talents, the affliction tree is fine, has some talents I wouldn't get but that is a matter of personal preference, he does have all the important ones and that is what matters. However, I would get Destructive Reach in Destruction if I were him, instead of putting 5 points into Demonic Embrace. Then again, I somehow doubt he is having threat issues with his gear setup (unless he has a *lot* more shadow damage than spell damage, which is possible), but if he does, then getting 10% less threat on his Shadowbolts/Immolates would help him output that bit more damage.

Warlock 3: Yeah, 18.6% crit as affliction, very low hit and spell penetration (proven to be a useless PvE talent, save for very few bosses such as Supremus, and a number of trash mobs) lead me to believe he really doesn't know what gear suits him best. Need more hit, ditch the crit unless it comes with a piece that is great otherwise, and no spell penetration other than the cloak enchant (20). As for his spec, it is good, it's a common malediction utility build, and you would want two Warlocks with malediction assuming your raid has its fair share of fire mages. And if he already is providing a utility curse most of the time, then that would account for ~100 dps he would have if he were on a damage curse.

As far as group setup, if none of the warlocks save the CO are getting a Shadow Priest/Elemental Shaman then I would say that could well contribute to the DPS difference, as well. However, they have other things to worry about right now, such as optimising their gear and specs in some cases.

I would also like to touch on the Warlock CO’s comment about Affliction being a horrible DPS spec and that he doesn't want any in the raid save the "utility warlock". At the gear level your guild is at (judging by your own gear and by your mention of early SSC fights as a basis of comparison) Affliction is definitely a more viable spec than Destruction, I personally was affliction till we first stepped into Mount Hyjal, and with the right itemization and dot uptime it is far from being a "poor DPS spec".

Updated: warlock 2 has 1010 shadow damage. Thanks anyway. Got the idea of what the problem is.

Last edited by Gruknok : 10/15/07 at 4:58 AM.
#38SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
Finally, affliction builds actually do scale really well, it's just that they only scale with damage since crit is marginal and we hit-cap easily. Higher-end gear tends to spend a lot of itemization points on crit and haste, which help destruction far more. It's not exactly a matter of scaling, it's a matter of scaling with the itemization that we will actually encounter in higher raid settings.
I don't see how stat allocation has anything to do with it, really.

In my opinion destruction warlocks gain more from +damage compared to affliction warlocks, due to their spammable spell getting a huge damage boost from it. Math to support that is at the end of the post. I know it's a bit hypothetical, but it's there to illustrate the point, not provide insurmountable proof.


Gear with high +damage and nothing else would also be used by destro's and would widen the gap. Incidentally, this is also why FSW is great for destro's too, provided they can obtain acceptable hit/crit on their other pieces.




-----

100 spelldamage extra will add, for an affliction lock:
Corruption: 100 * (0.94+0.12*3) * 1.05 * 1.1, due to emp corruption, Contagion, SM)
UA: 100 * 1.2 * 1.1 (SM)
Shadow Bolt: 100 * (3 / 3.5) * 1.1 (SM)

Or:

Corruption: 150 damage over 18 seconds, or 8,3dps
UA: 132 damage over 18 seconds, or 7,3 dps
Shadow Bolt: 94 damage per bolt.

Assuming a simplified 20 second rotation of UA/Corruption/SB/SB/SB/SB/SB/LT/DP you'd gain 150 from corruption, 132 from UA, and 5x94 from SB.

So a total gain of 753 damage over 20s or 38dps




for a destro lock (0/21/40), 100 spelldamage earns:

Shadow Bolt: 100 * (3 / 3.5 + 0.2) * 1.15 (SnF and DS)

Or:

Shadowbolt: 121.5 damage per bolt

Assuming something like SB/SB/SB/SB/LT, you'd gain 121.5*4=486 damage over 11.5s or 42dps.

This is assuming no crits and no CoD. Both of those are in favor of the destrolock anyway.
#39SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 frmorrison
I am Destro, and I have to agree, pure +damage will help Destro at least as much as Affliction (you forgot Siphon Life in your calcs, which will add a few dps). I still use the FSW boots because they are just that good (if you are hit capped).

However, if Blizzard designed items with pure +damage (think Solarian's pants or Kael's 44 damage cloak), they aren't really that good compared to items that mix stats.

Note that if the item designers instead just use +shadow damage (the 53 shadow damage BT/Hyjal trash drop cloak or the Kara trash drop +shadow neck), then it comes out really good due to pure schools being much cheaper in the item budget.
#40SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tizoxin
I've seen from a lot of posts here that Curse of Doom isn't affected by Shadow Mastery? Can anyone give me an explanation as to why? Is it simply because of the 200% spell coefficient on Doom or what?

If Shadow Mastery does not affect it, then does the demo sacrifice Succubus 15% affect it?
#41SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Suggestive
Don't think anyone knows why it doesn't affect it. We could guess all day, but you'd have to ask blizzard to get a definite answer.
#42SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Antoine
Originally Posted by tizoxin View Post
If Shadow Mastery does not affect it, then does the demo sacrifice Succubus 15% affect it?
yes
#43SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3bzk
I've got a question about Suppression and hit, I'm a little confused about the two. Say I have 5/5 supression and I've got 6% hit on my gear does this mean I've hit the hit cap for a warlock?
#44SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3scottemad123
Originally Posted by bzk View Post
I've got a question about Suppression and hit, I'm a little confused about the two. Say I have 5/5 supression and I've got 6% hit on my gear does this mean I've hit the hit cap for a warlock?
Only on your affliction school of spells, your still pretty gimped on your shadowbolts still.
#45SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3bzk
Alright so bascially I should still try and stack hit on my gear and respec out of suppression when I've got the correct amount of hit?
#46SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Velict
Originally Posted by bzk View Post
Alright so bascially I should still try and stack hit on my gear and respec out of suppression when I've got the correct amount of hit?
That is more or less the idea.
#47SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Bolche
Incinerate and Shadowbolt gain the same from spell damage in a standard raid environnment, the only differences are ISB vs better mana efficiency (and ISB > mana efficiency).

Base coefficients :
SB : 85.6%
Inci : 71.4%

In a desctruction build, both SB and Inci gain +20% from S&F, fire gets x110% from emberstorm. And in a standard raid environnment, SB gets x110% from shadow weaving, inci gets x115% from improved scorch.

SB : (85.6+20)*1.10 = 116,16
Inci : (71.4+20)*1.15*1.10 = 115.62
#48SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Morghulis
Originally Posted by Eph View Post
Haste is 15.7 = 1%, right?
Curse of Recklessness, which bosses in BC have an ability based on melee damage?
As Eph said a list of bosses where using CoR is (or isn't) suggested would be a nice addition to this raid compendium.
#49SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Morghulis View Post
As Eph said a list of bosses where using CoR is (or isn't) suggested would be a nice addition to this raid compendium.
Good point. Anyone have information on that?
#50SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ujai
One thing I would like to see is the math of CoD vs CoS/E/R in a rading environment, as our warlocks are rather reluctant to put up anyone but CoS.
#51SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Arveene
CoR and CoE

Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Good point. Anyone have information on that?
The only bosses we *don't* use CoR on in BT/Hyjal are the following:

Azgalor, Bloodboil, Essence of Suffering, Shahraz, Illidan

Azgalor - He already hits pretty damn hard.
Bloodboil - We already get crappy fel rage targets, don't really want to make it any worse.
Essence of Suffering - Need to make sure he hits Fixate targets for as little as possible.
Shahraz - Obvious reasons
Illidan - I'm not 100% sure if we should put it up there or not. We recently had a change of MTs, so we're not going to try it quite yet - but may soon.

These are the only bosses I can think of off the top of my head where we don't use CoR normally.


Originally Posted by Ujai View Post
One thing I would like to see is the math of CoD vs CoS/E/R in a rading environment, as our warlocks are rather reluctant to put up anyone but CoS.

It's actually really easy to do this. For elements and shadows usually if there are 2+ members who will benefit from them they should be put up.

As for the math it's pretty simple. Take the DPS of CoD and compare it to the total increase of DPS the raid will get from CoE. (Ex. CoD DPS = 100. 2 fire mages who do 1000 dps overall = 1000x2x10% = 200 DPS.) That doesn't even take into account less partial resists for the mages as well.

You can do the same exact math for CoS as well.

For CoR it gets a bit trickier and depends on the mobs armor. Once you figure out the mob's armor you do the same thing as you do to calculate CoE.

Last edited by Arveene : 10/15/07 at 11:25 AM. Reason: Added CoR / CoE
#52SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Crepe
Originally Posted by Morghulis View Post
As Eph said a list of bosses where using CoR is (or isn't) suggested would be a nice addition to this raid compendium.
For SSC/TK, we don't use CoR on the following bosses:

Hydross past 50% aura (I alternate between CoW and CoR)
Morogrim (though a druid MT seems to handle it fine)
Tidalvess (WF totem + CoR = bad news)
Al'ar phase 2 (missed taunt on melt armor = bad news)

We're still working on Kael, but CoR should be ok on all of the adds as well as Kael himself. I'd avoid CoR on the Kael trash that does the Arcane Flurry, as I like to use fear to interrupt that spell (though rogues have been getting better about gouging it).

For T4, I wouldn't use CoR on HKM or Mags unless your MT can take those nasty Cleave/Melee combos without much issue. CoR is bad news on Gruul past 7-8 grows.

EDIT: If we only have two warlocks, we usually prioritize CoS and then CoR. This is because there tends to be more shadow/arcane users in the raid (warlocks, spriests, moonkin, and arc mages) and physical DPS (rogues, hunters, warriors, feral druids, enh shaman, and ret pallies). Fire/frost users are exclusively mages and it's rare for us to have more than 2-3.
#53SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 Silmeria
CoR on Morogrim is fine, we do it all the time as do most raids (from my research going through other WWS parses). His damage output is increased slightly, and since it's just white attacks, it's pretty trivial.

CoR on Al'ar is fine, a hit on melt armor with CoR is roughly 700 damage more. Just be ready for it and you'll be alright. Al'ar dying faster = less meteors, less birds, and less chances for mistakes.

CoR on Tidalvess is fine too, it's a trivial amount of damage increase, it's just a bigger series, all mitigated.

The thing to remember about CoR is that it just effects the base AP, if it's not multiplied by anything (like cleave, or enrage, etc), then it's going to be fine.

CoR on everything that doesn't have a special attack pretty much, or if your melee DPS really isn't touching the mob.
#54SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 frmorrison
For CoR, I use it on all bosses except Azgalor (due to silence, and the imp demo shout guy is tanking the demons) and Bloodboil (I use it most of the time, just remove during Fel Rage).

Everything else gets Recklessness, because with imp Demo Shout the attack power gain is very small.
#55SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
 Eph
81.92 Int = 1% crit.

Stat values in comparison to each other:
Probably specify that dmg>crit for destruction.
Also from my tinkering with the spreadsheet, 1 haste isn't quite worth 1 dmg (1:0.97) this may just be for my specific gear and spec though, but I'd like to do/see some more concrete math on it, especially with the load of new haste items in 2.3.
And perhaps we should add a little more detail to our stat comparisons similar to how the rouge guide did it:
Stat weighting depends heavily on the stats a character already possesses. The following general guidelines are based roughly on a projected tier 4 level of gear (Kara/Gruul/Mag/world bosses). These guidelines work by comparing the amount of DPS provided by any one stat to the amount of DPS provided by a point of Attack Power:

1 Strength = 1 AP (1.1 with Kings)
1 Agility = 2 AP (2.2 with Kings)
1 Crit Rating = 1.6 AP
1 Hit Rating = 2.3 AP
4 Armor Penetration = 1 AP
1 Haste Rating = 2.3 AP

Comparing two pieces of gear using this weighting should be fairly straightforward. Consider gem slots to be worth approximately 18 AP (23 AP if using Hyjal/BT gems) if you don't know exactly what gems you will be placing in them. Here's an example of comparing two pieces of gear using this weighting (assuming Blessing of Kings and rare gems):

Edgewalker Longboots
250 Armor (stats without direct DPS value can be weighted 0)
+29 Agility (29 * 2.2 = 63.8 AP)
+28 Stamina (0)
[ ] Red Socket (18 AP)
[ ] Yellow Socket (18 AP)
Socket Bonus: +3 Hit Rating (3 * 2.3 = 6.9 AP)
Equip: Improves hit rating by 13. (13 * 2.3 = 29.9 AP)
Equip: Increases attack power by 44. (44 AP)
Total: 63.8 + 18 + 18 + 6.9 + 29.9 + 44 = 180.6 AP

Boots of Utter Darkness
278 Armor
+34 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 23. (23 * 2.3 = 52.9 AP)
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 32. (32 * 1.6 = 51.2 AP)
Equip: Increases attack power by 66. (66 AP)
Total: 52.9 + 51.2 + 66 = 170.1 AP
This will differ between the three trees and a difference between t4 level and t6 level, but I think this is an area where a lot of warlocks over/under compensate.

Last edited by Eph : 10/16/07 at 12:42 PM.
#56SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Silverstorm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but our values vary widely by spec, given the relative crit of each build, as well as the larger emphasis on Stamina for Demo locks. The weighting to +hit and +crit also is impacted by our +dmg. About the best we have right now is the "Next Stat Value" section in Leulier's spreadsheet (linked in the original post).

Attack Power is quite linear and easy to model (from discussions I've had with a feral druid friend), whereas caster stats are very much interdependent.


Also, for CoR modeling, here's the posts you need:

Boss Armor: [RAID] Boss armor values
CoR benefit: http://elitistjerks.com/498690-post35.html

These assume both Sunder and Faerie Fire are already up, so the increase is 5.69% (7700 armor bosses) or 6.36% (6200 armor bosses).

So, if PhysicalDPS * CoR_Reduction > CurseOfDoomDPS, do CoR on appropriate bosses.

Given a 10k Curse of Doom, here's the calculation to determine if physical DPS is high enough:

10000 / 60 = 166.66 DPS for CoD.
166.66 / .0569 = PhysicalDPS = 2929.115 on the higher armor bosses. For lower armor, same calculation, but .0636:
10000 / 60 / .0636 = 2620.545 Physical DPS

Even simpler, here's what you multiply CoD by to find the required physical DPS:

7700 armor: multiply CoD damage by .2929115 (or .293 to be easy)
6200 armor: multiply CoD damage by .2620545 (or .262 to be easy)

If physical DPS is higher than the result, use CoR. If not...go ahead with CoD, and your raid probably has more issues than CoD vs. CoR.
#57SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 Eph
Originally Posted by Silverstorm View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but our values vary widely by spec, given the relative crit of each build, as well as the larger emphasis on Stamina for Demo locks. The weighting to +hit and +crit also is impacted by our +dmg. About the best we have right now is the "Next Stat Value" section in Leulier's spreadsheet (linked in the original post).
True the best thing is the spreadsheet, maybe just make note emphasizing its use to determine gear choices. I guess I was originally thinking of making a sample gear set around the t4 range and another at the t6 range, going through the three main trees and writing out the values but I don't know how useful or accurate that would be.
#58SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Eph View Post
True the best thing is the spreadsheet, maybe just make note emphasizing its use to determine gear choices. I guess I was originally thinking of making a sample gear set around the t4 range and another at the t6 range, going through the three main trees and writing out the values but I don't know how useful or accurate that would be.

The original poster is right, stats are weighted differently across specs and gear levels. They even differ with raid setup and per encounter. Being hit capped is very nice against bosses, but a huge waste for the majority of Hyjal, for example.

I wrote ShadowSeer to do just that: determine my personal benefit from each rating.

Example here.

Last edited by Arelenda : 10/16/07 at 6:07 PM.
#59SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Cohren
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
The original poster is right, stats are weighted differently across specs and gear levels. They even differ with raid setup.

I wrote ShadowSeer to do just that: determine my personal benefit from each rating.

Example here.
Thats a great mod and it seems very helpful. Is it available for download?
#60SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 Eph
Originally Posted by Cohren View Post
Thats a great mod and it seems very helpful. Is it available for download?
It's linked at the bottom of the first post. And yes, that does look like a great way to calculate stat values.
#61SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Raithlin
Further to the 'raiding demo lock' discussion heres a quick question - do Felguards benefit from Windfury, or any other synergy related effects/abilities other than SPs? i know they can get battleshout, but with that group perpetually made up of rogues and hunters its not one i as a demo lock am going to break into anytime soon.
#62SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shai
They benefit from all group-wide buffs, like LOTP, BS and Ferocius Inspiration. Can't comment on WF as we rarely have a shaman, and when we do he naturally goes with the melee.

For the short time I've tried Felguard spec, I was usually in a hunter, hunter, feral group. Not optimal, but can't complain about double FI for both the lock and the pet.
#63SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Chronitia
Just a few more notes on 40/21 since it's still sparse. Here are a few tips:

1.) You really need to get into a group with a shadow priest, even if that means losing totems
2.) At least until void star talisman (which I still havn't gotten), I found it necessary to give up 2% crit out of demonic tactics in order to get 3/3 demonic resilience and 3/3 fel stamina
3.) Bind "pet attack" to an easy hot key, as well as "pet follow" which ends up being called "special action bar X" where X is which icon the "pet follow" command is on. being able to pull your pet in and out of whirlwinds, spore quakes, etc is key
#64SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 Silmeria
Originally Posted by Raithlin View Post
Further to the 'raiding demo lock' discussion heres a quick question - do Felguards benefit from Windfury, or any other synergy related effects/abilities other than SPs? i know they can get battleshout, but with that group perpetually made up of rogues and hunters its not one i as a demo lock am going to break into anytime soon.
Windfury - no. It's a totem that applies a weapon buff - FGs don't have "gear" per say like players.

Strength of earth totem, ILoTP, battle shout, etc; basically any direct buff will effect your pet. And quite nicely too.
#65SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Raithlin
Thanks for that. Regarding Felguards and Shadow priests, it seems to me that with 2/3 Mana Feed and T2 set bonus you have basically removed the need for a SP, and it would thus benefit you more to join a melee group. Seeing as you essentially bring nothing to the melee however, you can basically forget it.

With 2/3 Mana Feed and T2 2-set bonus, the only really important synergy to obtain is the oomkins 3% crit aura. An SP is no more than a safety net for the more intractable boss fights.

For those of you interested in demo raiding, my profile link below will take you to what imo is the optimal raiding demo spec.
#66SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shai
With 1 point in Mana Feed I've never seen the Felguard run oom. I'd rather shuffle some points around to get Intensity. Spell pushback can be quite annoying, especially when using /stopcasting.
#67SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Vazu
As far as Demonology builds go, I can't really see anything being better than 7/44/10 honestly. Once you pickup 2 pieces of T5 + Void Star Talisman, the build is just incredibly fun and outputs a shitload of DPS. I pretty regularly pull 1300+ combined DPS, assuming the fight doesn't completely shutdown my Felguard. There aren't very many fights where I can't use him anymore. Watering down a Felguard build with Devestation and losing 2/2 LT and instant Corruption is a really bad idea IMO. Without Ruin and generally because Demo Warlocks prefer everything else (Hit, Haste, Spellpower) > crit, it's really underwhelming.
#68SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3ninielin
Hmm disagreeing with you Vazu. I raid with a build 1/43/17 ( or 1/41/19 should I need instant such as shadowburn for a few fights like vashj) and I don't really see what instant corruption will bring to you ( gcd powa) over 1 point in corruption, nor do I see the DPS power of improved LT ( do have a SP all the time tho so maybe I m biased here). Seems to me its a lot of wasted points especially considering that crit certainely isn't useless as you will proc more ISB the more crit you have.

That said on a fight where my felguard isn't shutdown and can dps most of the time or even all the time ( about everything in ssc/tk), I m running at 1400, sometimes 1500 + dps depending on the dps time.Don't have any T6 yet, we're on kael.
#69SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3vokzhen
Originally Posted by Bolche View Post
Incinerate and Shadowbolt gain the same from spell damage in a standard raid environnment, the only differences are ISB vs better mana efficiency (and ISB > mana efficiency).

Base coefficients :
SB : 85.6%
Inci : 71.4%

In a desctruction build, both SB and Inci gain +20% from S&F, fire gets x110% from emberstorm. And in a standard raid environnment, SB gets x110% from shadow weaving, inci gets x115% from improved scorch.

SB : (85.6+20)*1.10 = 116,16
Inci : (71.4+20)*1.15*1.10 = 115.62
You forgot some stuff. Comparative damage gains from each point of +dmg.
Incinerate: SnF, Sac, Emberstorm, Scorch, Misery, talented CoE.
1.578 per +dmg
Shadow Bolt: SnF, Sac, Weaving, Misery, talented CoS
1.587 per +dmg, with 0% ISB uptime; 60% uptime pushes Sbolt to 1.777. That's a significant difference.
As you said, ISB > mana efficiency, and Sbolt scales quite a bit better as it is. In addition, shadow gets increased bonus from CoD and Corruption, if it's used.
#70SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by vokzhen View Post
You forgot some stuff. Comparative damage gains from each point of +dmg.
Incinerate: SnF, Sac, Emberstorm, Scorch, Misery, talented CoE.
1.578 per +dmg
Shadow Bolt: SnF, Sac, Weaving, Misery, talented CoS
1.587 per +dmg, with 0% ISB uptime; 60% uptime pushes Sbolt to 1.777. That's a significant difference.
As you said, ISB > mana efficiency, and Sbolt scales quite a bit better as it is. In addition, shadow gets increased bonus from CoD and Corruption, if it's used.
I don't think those were forgotten, it's just that those are multiplicative. Misery, for example will affect both the same. With Imp Scorch up (rare until 2.3) SB and Incinerate scale equally. It's just ISB that makes the difference. But ISB is decisive, really. Of course, if you're the only shadow user and have no shadow priest, it might be worth it.
#71SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Vazu
Originally Posted by ninielin View Post
I don't really see what instant corruption will bring to you ( gcd powa) over 1 point in corruption, nor do I see the DPS power of improved LT ( do have a SP all the time tho so maybe I m biased here)
Yeah, try raiding nearly 100% of the time w/o a shadow Priest in your group. We always give them to Mages, then Hunters and healers leftover mixed into those groups. So I'd say yeah, it's pretty unfair to assume raiding w/o 2/2 Imp. LT is good unless you are guaranteed to have a shadow Priest. It's hard to deny how an additional 300+ mana/tap wouldn't contribute to your long-term DPS. I mean, there's just no arguement there if you don't have a mana battery.
#72SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Lilnietzsche
Question regarding warlock cast cycle

In regards to cast cycle, it seems taken for granted that immolate should be included. I am not stating that it should not be included, but in regards to an afflicition lock, I'm wondering if with the correct spell crit and desparity between shadow and fire damage that it would be better to cast another sb, even if it takes another second to cast. The reason I ask this is two fold. First, sb has much better damage coefficients than immolate. Second, when sb crits you get ISB effect as well as overall a lot more damage than if the initial immo blast crits. Especially when starting out with the fsw set, it is not uncommon to have 200+ more shadow damage than fire. I'm wondering if anyone has had some experience with the math behind this. This question is from the persepective of one beginning raids, but I'm much intrigued by the theory crafting I have seen so far, and it seems to be a lot of fun.
#73SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by ninielin View Post
I don't really see what instant corruption will bring to you ( gcd powa) over 1 point in corruption, nor do I see the DPS power of improved LT ( do have a SP all the time tho so maybe I m biased here).
Ignoring the PvP reasons for instant spells, having an instant gives you a chance to move a little bit without a dps penatly. With with a Shadow Priest (which I never get), I would still get imp Life Tap because it still means 20% less life taps, which is more dps time.

You aren't gaining much from 5% to crit in addition you only need 1 point in Mana Feed, FG gets 1 spirit tic between Cleaves. However, once you are in Black Temple the boss RoS on Phase 2 and 3 does damage to everyone, so the 70% less interruption talent would be helpful, although not required.
#74SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Lilnietzsche View Post
In regards to cast cycle, it seems taken for granted that immolate should be included. I am not stating that it should not be included, but in regards to an afflicition lock, I'm wondering if with the correct spell crit and desparity between shadow and fire damage that it would be better to cast another sb, even if it takes another second to cast. The reason I ask this is two fold. First, sb has much better damage coefficients than immolate. Second, when sb crits you get ISB effect as well as overall a lot more damage than if the initial immo blast crits. Especially when starting out with the fsw set, it is not uncommon to have 200+ more shadow damage than fire. I'm wondering if anyone has had some experience with the math behind this. This question is from the persepective of one beginning raids, but I'm much intrigued by the theory crafting I have seen so far, and it seems to be a lot of fun.
The answer: it depends. At high crit rates, Shadow Bolt tends to be more dps. Unfortunately, ISB coefficients vary a lot from fight to fight. I'm destro with BT gear, with no fire mages, but always Shadow Priests, and I get 15% bonus to shadow damage to DS. Still, on most occasions Immolate seems worth casting from damage-per-casting-time perspective.

I mostly use it right after the pull, before solid aggro has been established. No really high crit SB at the start that way ,and the Priest Shadow Weaving hasn't kicked in fully yet either, at that point.

But with _everything_ (talents, gear quality and setup and raid setup) in favor of SB, it's still only marginally better. Under most circumstances, Immolate will just be preferable.

You might want to try ShadowSeer to run the numbers for you, though. It does calculate damage-per-casting-time, and takes all talents including ISB and the combined immolate-hit+dot into account.
#75SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Cronjob
The problems I seem to be having with the FG build atm are that I do not have two piece t5 so he dies a lot since our healers dont heal him much or at all some times. Also I have to beg for buffs for my pet which gets old and pretty much just pisses me off by the end of the night. Also since I dont have any aggro reduction talents I draw a lot of aggro (not pull) so I have to be careful. I had a hell of a time on Al'ar lastnight, it was my first time doing it and my FG died too many times.
#76SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Raithlin
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
You aren't gaining much from 5% to crit
I would have to disagree with this. An extra 5% to crit is a huge dps boost by itself, giving you much more than you could output with the extra time from imp. life tap. THEN when you include the increase in proc from imp. SB youve just increased your dps exponentially.
#77SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krathis
Originally Posted by Raithlin View Post
I would have to disagree with this. An extra 5% to crit is a huge dps boost by itself, giving you much more than you could output with the extra time from imp. life tap. THEN when you include the increase in proc from imp. SB youve just increased your dps exponentially.
There's other things to consider. For instance you have Shiffar's Nexus Horn equipped currently in your armory, I'm not sure if that's part of your raiding gear but if it is your gear will favor crit over instant corruption.

I'm using an MSD and because of that putting corruption down to an instant cast helps insure I don't lose dps time due to altering my casting rotation to maximize focus procs.

Generally though, I do agree that 1/43/17 and close variants are the *best* felguard raiding spec. Even though we don't gain nearly as much from crit as a ruin 'lock would the raid still sees more ISB time which leads to more raid dps overall.

On paper however, with static variables (read taking a spreadsheet which assumes a base ISB uptime regardless of your own crit rating or talents) I'm pretty sure imp. lifetap pulled ahead of the crit talents by a fair margin. Again though this assumes static variables and doesn't take into account things such as how much ISB uptime you add by increasing your own crit, nor the possibility of being grouped with a shadow priest.

On a personal note I'm either going to respec full destruction once the MSD nerf goes live or to 1/43/17. Not sure yet though if I'll be gemming the new crit meta or an old school spell damage one but either way I'll be dropping MSD. The nerf back to six seconds of focus time plus the internal cooldown addition doesn't make it worth the gemming requirements at my current gear level.
#78SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Cronjob
One build I dont see here is the 30/21/10 succy sac hybrid build. Its a very good and viable raid build that puts out good numbers.

Theorycraft/Caster DPS Comparison - Shadowpriest.com Wiki
#79SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rochan
Someone brings up that stupid build every week and thinks it's good. It may look good on paper but its pretty terrible. No ruin, no shadowburn, no pet...what's the point? Its DPS sucks and is horrible to play.

If someone specs that they are pretty dumb.

Btw I can't find a character with your name on Armory or anyone in your guild with that name, do you even play a warlock?
#80SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 probiscus
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
Someone brings up that stupid build every week and thinks it's good. It may look good on paper but its pretty terrible. No ruin, no shadowburn, no pet...what's the point? Its DPS sucks and is horrible to play.

If someone specs that they are pretty dumb.

Btw I can't find a character with your name on Armory or anyone in your guild with that name, do you even play a warlock?
As daunting as that 80+ page warlock thread is, people really *should* take the time to read the damn thing. Even if you read at a 3rd grade level, it shouldn't take more than 20 minutes to glance through the larger post by some of the more seasoned posters. Hell, even the summary posts inside that thread are a good starting place.

In short, if you're going to post something, have something worth posting.

In order to determine if you have something worth saying, you need to get yourself up to speed.

It also helps, as Rochan pointed out, to have a fucking working profile.
#81SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3ninielin
how about cooling off some ? I don't think EJ needs to turn into fohguild.org....
#82SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Cronjob
WOW you are a pretty angry little person. So if the build didnt work for you and you found it hard to play then it must be horrible I guess. So when you specced into that build were you dumb in doing so?

Looks good on paper can be said for pretty much all the builds, aggro issues, movement during fights, being incapacitated during an encounter are just some of the things a spreadsheet cant accurately account for.

Funny you list no pet as a complaint for this build when you are running 0/21/40, dont you sac the succy too?

BTW I do play a warlock, do you?
#83SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Arveene
Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
WOW you are a pretty angry little person. So if the build didnt work for you and you found it hard to play then it must be horrible I guess. So when you specced into that build were you dumb in doing so?

Looks good on paper can be said for pretty much all the builds, aggro issues, movement during fights, being incapacitated during an encounter are just some of the things a spreadsheet cant accurately account for.

Funny you list no pet as a complaint for this build when you are running 0/21/40, dont you sac the succy too?

BTW I do play a warlock, do you?

He has a good reason to be angry, that spec has been brought up in the warlock thread numerous times and everytime it's been proven as a bad spec compared to the others. If you had read the thread and kept up with it you would have known this and never had asked the question in the first place.

Compared to a 41+/0/18+ build you lose 5% crit of SB and UA + pet utility / malediction / shadow embrace

Compared to a 0/21/40 build you lose ISB Uptime / 8% crit

Compared to a 7/43/11 build or any variant of you lose either 5 or 10% crit / more ISB uptime. You'll also miss out on a little bit of more spell damage / damage increase from MD/SL. (depending on the fight of course) It's also a very versatile spec.

On each of these builds, you provide more benefit to the raid via pet utility or more ISB uptime. With a 30/21/10 build you really don't provide much to the raid. Especially since the build does less damage than a destruction or affliction build.

Last edited by Arveene : 10/18/07 at 5:49 PM.
#84SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Cronjob
Thank you for the calm response Arveene. I have kept up with the threads and I have also kept up with Warlocks who do run this build and have seen their WSS logs.

Again on paper I will not argue those other builds sometimes appear better but in practice they may not. I mean if I can sit there an spam bolts with a 0/21/40 build without aggro issues, without ever being interrupted sure its most likely a better build. But the encounters are too dynamic with too many variables that a spreadsheet cant account for. I certianly dont see it as the best build of all time or anything like that but I do see it as a decent good DPS build with a wider play style than full affliction or destro.

I did post a link with information and if I was at home I could post other comparisons that show this build as dps viable (not complete crap as some are making out to be). Its not like I just posted the question and had nothing to atleast back up the numbers some what. But I guess we can agree to disagree.

Last edited by Cronjob : 10/18/07 at 6:00 PM.
#85SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 Praetorian
Deep breaths, people.
#86SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Trippy
Let 30/21/10 die.

Let's argue about 40/0/21 instead.
#87SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krathis
Originally Posted by Arveene View Post

Compared to a 0/21/40 build you lose ISB Uptime / 8% crit
In addition to this you lose pretty much all the utility of deep affliction builds and gain really nothing in return except straight damage.

30/21/10 looks really neat on paper, all that stacking of shadow damage, but what it really boils down to is this.

No pet, no malediction, no soul link for warlock tanking, most likely only 1 point in SE if any, terrible crit, nearly as much debuff space used as a full affliction 'lock, high aggro generation, and a casting rotation that relies on dot casts thus furthering the gap between itself and the other 'petless' build 0/21/40 when it comes to ISB uptime.

Of the two petless builds 0/21/40 gives more back to the raid and all you really see in return is a build that does what affliction does but with less utility. It may do slightly more damage but is that trade off really worth it when it comes to raiding?

Keep in mind the title of this thread before responding to that question.
#88SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Trickykid
No one is saying 30/21/10 will put you down with the tank on DPS. The point is that (as Krathis points out) it brings zero benefits to the raid. I'm fine with classes bringing zero buffs to raids so long as they put out enough DPS to make up for it. The problem with 30/21/10 is that it's "viable" in terms of DPS. You'll probably beat some mages and hunters, but it just doesn't have the same multipliers coming out of the talents as 21/40 (the closest raid-role a lock can take to 30/21/10).

SnF ends up adding as much DPS as Shadow Mastery once a certain gear level is achieved. Then you toss in Ruin, 8% more crit (which, let alone personal DPS, helps the rest of the raid) and destruction-spell threat reduction. In the face of that, 30 in affliction brings instant, empowered corruptions, a better life tap and affliction-spell threat reduction.

In short, it doesn't bring the same raid-buffs to the table as 21/40, in most cases will do the same or less damage, and scales worse if given Shaman/SP/Moonkin buffs. If I were a raid leader I'd have to wonder...
#89SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
One build I dont see here is the 30/21/10 succy sac hybrid build. Its a very good and viable raid build that puts out good numbers.

Theorycraft/Caster DPS Comparison - Shadowpriest.com Wiki
ISB modeling is all wrong in the source you mentioned. It doesn't take into account dots on the target. ISB ups ALL Shadow damage for it's duration. Not just the next 4 bolts.

Also, you'll find my opinion here:

http://elitistjerks.com/506250-post2109.html

Although I might be wrong about Immolate (I had it downranked at the time, severely skewing my data on it). Either way, losing 8% crit and ruin and SnF to get imp lifetap, emp corruption and shadow mastery is obviously not the way to go.


And please, people, let's stay polite. We're trying to construct a resource. No need to get personal, it detracts from the goal.

Last edited by Arelenda : 10/18/07 at 8:45 PM.
#90SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Idk
The attitude is certainly uncalled for, let's please keep this civil.

There's one aspect of 29/21/10 + 1 that I think people fail to consider. It combines the 'survival' talents of the lower demo tree (DE, imp HS, Fel Stam, DA) with a small part of the self-sufficiency talents of the affliction tree (at least siphon life for self-healing that comes with +25% shadow damage) while maintaining solid personal DPS (not the best but certainly up there).

I think it's easy to forget that 0/21/40 and X/41/XX are very healing-intensive builds. On the other side, the standard deep affliction build misses the early demo talents which results in a non-trivial health pool hit (even running with an imp). For a young raiding guild or a still undergeared lock, the 29/21/10+1 may be a good way to provide damage without putting stress on the healers and maintaining a pretty beefy health-pool.

Yes, it's situational but might be a good fit for the right person in the right situation. In fact, I'd be interested in seeing the dps difference between 30/21/10 and 41/5/11+4 for early raiding gear levels.

Just because a build isn't good for your situation doesn't mean it's a bad build.
#91SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
TThere's one aspect of 29/21/10 + 1 that I think people fail to consider. It combines the 'survival' talents of the lower demo tree (DE, imp HS, Fel Stam, DA) with a small part of the self-sufficiency talents of the affliction tree (at least siphon life for self-healing that comes with +25% shadow damage) while maintaining solid personal DPS (not the best but certainly up there).
Good point, I had overlooked that.

But Affliction does not really have survivability issues, due to high mobility, Dark Pact, Siphon Life, Blood Pact and if necessary Drain Life.

Neither does Destro, due to the 21 points demonology.

The self sufficiency point is valid. No doubt about that. Especially for starting guilds, having to heal warlocks that have been tapping might put a strain on undergeared healers.

However, the build is undeniable much worse in terms of dps versus 0/21/40. Losing 8%crit AND Ruin AND SnF(vsSM) for increased personal self-sufficiency is harsh. Especially if survivability is an issue, because you don't have an imp out. Blood Pact will boost hp pools of classes that actually do have issues with staying alive at low gear levels (Mooncloth Set being the prime example).

Not to mention beginning groups actually need high dps from dps classes more than anything. Just compensate with healthstones, healing/mana/rejuv pots, and if push comes to shove, bandage/drain life. Or ditch the 30/21/10 guy and replace him with a healer. As long as you don't tap too aggressively you'll get hots or other mana efficient heals anyway, by a raid healer. If you're concerned about self-sustainability, FSW or Soul Leech will help mitigate the problem.

The builds in the Compendium aren't set in stone, the compendium itself mentions that. By design, it mentions standard builds and explains their strengths and weaknesses, giving reasonable alternatives. This spec has too limited use to warrant its inclusion, in my opinion.

Last edited by Arelenda : 10/19/07 at 5:19 PM. Reason: Clearing up possible misunderstanding
#92SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Darkmantle
Originally Posted by Raithlin View Post
I would have to disagree with this. An extra 5% to crit is a huge dps boost by itself, giving you much more than you could output with the extra time from imp. life tap. THEN when you include the increase in proc from imp. SB youve just increased your dps exponentially.
Imp SB can only increase total shadow dps by 20%, ever*. The only exponential behaviour would be a psuedo exponential decay of the relative increase in ISB uptime relative to increasing crit rates.

WPUATOUOE(Wow players united against the over use of exponential)

*Feeding extra mana to spriests isn't going to create an exponential gain its just going to mean less mana consumables needed to achieve full burn and the full burn situation is still the upper bound for caster dps.
#93SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tizoxin
Does anyone have a link to anything conclusive that proves that CoD is not affected by SM? If it is indeed not, shouldn't this be a bug that Blizzard should fix? It seems kind of silly, and the first time I have seen this noted was on this site, although I did notice that doom seems to hit harder in my 0/21/40 build unamped.
#94SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Shouldn't be hard to find out. max rank CoD hits for 4200 + 200% * spellpower. It should take exactly one minute for a SM warlock to find out whether it's affected.
#95SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Vazu
I realize there's a trinket simulation based on spec, but I'm curious to hear feedback from players who have the Ashtongue Talisman of Shadows. In a couple of weeks, I should have it. Which will give me access the following trinkets to rotate in/out.

Ashtongue Talisman of Shadows
Void Star Talisman
Darkmoon Card: Crusade
Icon of the Silver Crescent

Assuming I can keep 10x Crusade up, it always gets a trinket spot. Depending on the resists involved, I may or may not use VST as my second trinket with a Felguard out. The question is, for a single target burn encounter, would ATS be better than the Icon? I'm not concerned with anything 2+ targets. I know the ATS is better in that situation, assuming it has no internal cooldown. But everything I've ready has the both of them very close for single target encounters.
#96SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Bolche
Originally Posted by tizoxin View Post
Does anyone have a link to anything conclusive that proves that CoD is not affected by SM? If it is indeed not, shouldn't this be a bug that Blizzard should fix? It seems kind of silly, and the first time I have seen this noted was on this site, although I did notice that doom seems to hit harder in my 0/21/40 build unamped.
It is very easy to test. Just remove all your items, to have 0 +dmg, and CoD+fear a mob. If it does 4200 dmg, it is not affected by SM, if it does 4620, then it is. I tested this somewhere around the 2007/05/26, to correct my spreadsheet and SM does not affect CoD.
#97SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Zephro
There's no mention of Siphon Life in the Affliction section. Its damage per cast time is pretty high; is there any reason not to cast this?

(I realise it takes a load off your healers, I just mean in pure dps terms).
#98SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
There's no mention of Siphon Life in the Affliction section. Its damage per cast time is pretty high; is there any reason not to cast this?

(I realise it takes a load off your healers, I just mean in pure dps terms).
That would depend. Its base damage is 630 + spellpower over 30 seconds. Casting time is 1.5seconds. It's affected by SM. So it's damage-per-second-cast-time is (630+sp)*1,1 / 1,5s.

It's probably worth keeping in the rotation for the life drain, but it doesn't seem exceptionally good damage, on first glance. Far below other dots for dpsct, but better than Shadow Bolt.

30 second duration is long, though. Losing tics will make it worth less, so only worth it if your target is going to live for 30 seconds.

You can test for yourself using Leulier's spreadsheet for theorethical values, or ShadowSeer for some recorded data.
#99SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Idk
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post

But Affliction does not really have survivability issues, due to high mobility, Dark Pact, Siphon Life, Blood Pact and if necessary Drain Life.

Neither does Destro, due to the 21 points demonology.
Affliction has good survivability but comes with a smaller health pool.. this can be bad in fights with large damage spikes. The classic example for a starting raider that I'm thinking of is a bad shatter on Gruul.

Destro can survive large damage spikes but has crap for personal healing and self-sufficiency.

The self sufficiency point is valid. No doubt about that. Especially for starting guilds, having to heal warlocks that didn't even take damage might put a strain on undergeared healers.
Is this sarcasm or a typo?

Not to mention beginning groups actually need high dps from dps classes more than anything. Just compensate with healthstones, healing/mana/rejuv pots, and if push comes to shove, bandage/drain life.
I agree with most of this.. but if you're 0/21/40 and you have to DL/bandage to get your mana your dps will suck compared to any build with siphon life for that extra bit of self-sufficiency.

If you're concerned about self-sustainability, FSW or Soul Leech will help mitigate the problem.
FSW is such a minor offset, I admit that it's something but it's a far cry from self-sufficiency. Soul leech has two problems.. 1, there's no way that it covers the health needed to self-sufficiently output the high dps of 0/21/40.. 2, you can only get health back from soul leech while standing still and casting (if there's any movement in a fight, you won't get any healing during that movement).

However, the build is undeniable much worse in terms of dps versus 0/21/40. Losing 8%crit AND Ruin AND SnF(vsSM) for increased personal self-sufficiency is harsh
So I decided to put the build to the test using leulier's spreadsheet. I picked some reasonable figures for low gear levels.. 900 shadow damage, 10% crit, 16% spell hit before talents.

946 dps with 0/21/40, -5000 hp/min
953 dps with 43/0/18, +2200 hp/min
969 dps with 30/21/10, -700 hp/min

For reference, at these dps figures the value of FSW healing is about 1000 hp/min.

30/21/10 doesn't come out all that bad.. top damage, almost self-sufficient (it is SS with FSW), and a big health pool. I would personally take deep affliction with a few sacrificed points for the extra utility, but I really can't say that 30/21/10 is a useless build in this context.
#100SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rochan
If someone actually plays and enjoys 30/21/10 I congratulate them for being able to play a spec with absolutely no fun or helpful aspects. No UA, Malediction, Shadow Embrace, Dark Pact, Ruin, extra crit, Shadowburn, SnF, pet, gimped SB range. It's basically like playing a mage :P Not to mention if you have a lot of warlocks/spriests you won't even cast siphon life due to debuff limits.

You do OK damage and are of no help to the raid.
#101SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Silentuviel
Sorry duplicated post, please remove.i'll try to add some positive feedback to the current discussion. Sorry again.

Last edited by Silentuviel : 10/19/07 at 1:04 PM.
#102SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Krathis
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
There's one aspect of 29/21/10 + 1 that I think people fail to consider. It combines the 'survival' talents of the lower demo tree (DE, imp HS, Fel Stam, DA) with a small part of the self-sufficiency talents of the affliction tree (at least siphon life for self-healing that comes with +25% shadow damage) while maintaining solid personal DPS (not the best but certainly up there).

Yes, it's situational but might be a good fit for the right person in the right situation. In fact, I'd be interested in seeing the dps difference between 30/21/10 and 41/5/11+4 for early raiding gear levels.

Just because a build isn't good for your situation doesn't mean it's a bad build.
The biggest survival talent for 30/21/10 in the demo tree is DE. DA is nice, as are the other talents you mentioned, but with all the self-sufficiency talents from affliction the biggest concern would be spike damage.

41/5/15 offers more utility and still gives you DE. Also you end up with dark pact which is a better survival talent then any of the early demonology talents (except possibly DE) in my opinion because you life tap less, meaning your health pool is topped off more often, in addition to this you'll almost always be using an imp which gives you another 700 hp or so to deal with spike damage.

As far as the early raiding gear comparison, I ran some numbers through Leulier's spreadsheet using the following, 900 shadow and fire damage, 12% base crit, and 6% hit rating. Used the base spread sheet assumptions of 60% ISB uptime, 1.13 CoS, 1.1 CoE, full scorch stack, misery, and full shadow weaving.

30/21/10 - 903 dps (-14.81 hp/s) (Note 30 more spell damage because of DA)
41/5/15 - 895 dps (+32.71 hp/s) (Note this build has 4% more crit because of devastation)
21/0/40 - 871 dps (-21.8 hp/s) (Note this build has 8% more crit because of devastation and backlash)
0/21/40 - 906 dps (-111.62 hp/s) (Note this build has 8% more crit because of devastation and backlash, and 30 more spell damage because of DA)

And some comparisons at 1200 shadow and fire damage, 16% base crit, and 13% hit. Going to leave out the notes on adjusted crit and spell damage for talents on this one but they'll be in the calculations.

30/21/10 - 1180 dps (+8.07 hp/s)
41/5/15 - 1155 dps (+51.48 hp/s)
21/0/40 - 1248 dps (+16.78 hp/s) (Note that the math here has been double checked and proven to be wrong, best I could reproduce for this spec was about 1180 dps with a similar hp/s)
0/21/40 - 1215 dps (-103.14 hp/s)

Conclusion, 30/21/10 scales better then UA builds but doesn't match the efficiency of dark pact. Granted it's drain life is more beefy thus allowing you to recover from spike damage faster then a UA build would.

Rather or not the 8 dps gain at early gear levels or the 25 dps gain at later gear levels is worth the trade off in ISB uptime or possibly losing malediction (keep in mind all these numbers use shadow malediction in the calculations) we can debate all day but there's the numbers for anyone that was curious.

*edit* Something I forgot to mention in these number comparisons is that every spec was put on curse of elements. Given that running a damage curse over a debuff curse would be an option the spec that would gain the most would be 30/21/10, followed by 0/21/40, 41/5/15, and 21/0/40. All sac builds used a succubus sacrifice, all casting rotations where for optimal damage allowance according to the spreadsheet except life tap which was simply left 'as needed', the filler spell was shadow bolt for every spec, and no pet damage was used in any comparison.

It's probably worth mentioning that if you raid with four warlocks 30/21/10 could produce some pretty good numbers. For one you'd have three other warlocks helping to maintaining ISB, you'd have three other warlocks to take care of curse of elements, shadows, and recklessness leaving you open to using doom or agony, and most likely you'd have at least one affliction warlock maintaining SE and/or Malediction. Debuff space however could be an issue especially if more then one of the other 'locks was affliction and more then one shadow priest was in the raid.

Last edited by Krathis : 10/23/07 at 12:44 PM.
#103SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Cronjob
Originally Posted by Krathis View Post
The biggest survival talent for 30/21/10 in the demo tree is DE. DA is nice, as are the other talents you mentioned, but with all the self-sufficiency talents from affliction the biggest concern would be spike damage.

41/5/15 offers more utility and still gives you DE. Also you end up with dark pact which is a better survival talent then any of the early demonology talents (except possibly DE) in my opinion because you life tap less, meaning your health pool is topped off more often, in addition to this you'll almost always be using an imp which gives you another 700 hp or so to deal with spike damage.

As far as the early raiding gear comparison, I ran some numbers through Leulier's spreadsheet using the following, 900 shadow and fire damage, 12% base crit, and 6% hit rating. Used the base spread sheet assumptions of 60% ISB uptime, 1.13 CoS, 1.1 CoE, full scorch stack, misery, and full shadow weaving.

30/21/10 - 903 dps (-14.81 hp/s) (Note 30 more spell damage because of DA)
41/5/15 - 895 dps (+32.71 hp/s) (Note this build has 4% more crit because of devastation)
21/0/40 - 871 dps (-21.8 hp/s) (Note this build has 8% more crit because of devastation and backlash)
0/21/40 - 906 dps (-111.62 hp/s) (Note this build has 8% more crit because of devastation and backlash, and 30 more spell damage because of DA)

And some comparisons at 1200 shadow and fire damage, 16% base crit, and 13% hit. Going to leave out the notes on adjusted crit and spell damage for talents on this one but they'll be in the calculations.

30/21/10 - 1180 dps (+8.07 hp/s)
41/5/15 - 1155 dps (+51.48 hp/s)
21/0/40 - 1248 dps (+16.78 hp/s)
0/21/40 - 1215 dps (-103.14 hp/s)

Conclusion, 30/21/10 scales better then UA builds but doesn't match the efficiency of dark pact. Granted it's drain life is more beefy thus allowing you to recover from spike damage faster then a UA build would.

Rather or not the 8 dps gain at early gear levels or the 25 dps gain at later gear levels is worth the trade off in ISB uptime or possibly losing malediction (keep in mind all these numbers use shadow malediction in the calculations) we can debate all day but there's the numbers for anyone that was curious.


These are all good comparisons as are the ones done by IDK. All of which shows the point I was trying to make earlier, which is 30/21/10 is not complete crap as some try to make it out to be and SHOULD be included in as a hybrid build especially if you already have other locks filling the support roles.

I'll state this again, non of the spreadsheets account for the intangibles of each encounter. Movement, incapacitation/silencing effects, having to pick up CoR/CoS/CoEl if that lock dies and everything else thats not tank and spank without aggro issues. Its just like the old SM/Ruin build pre BC, not the best at one particular thing but just a good all around versatile build.
#104SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Idk
Instead of getting personal opinions about who likes and dislikes the 30/21/10 playstyle, why don't we put an entry in the first post with a brief explanation about it.. the pros, the cons.. the few cases where it shines and the reasons why you should probably pick another spec. Now that we've had an intelligent discussion about it and looked at it from both sides we should have enough info to fill out a front page entry.

If you do that you won't have people asking once a week about it.
#105SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krathis
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
Instead of getting personal opinions about who likes and dislikes the 30/21/10 playstyle, why don't we put an entry in the first post with a brief explanation about it..
An entry in the first post concerning 21/0/40 may be warranted too. While it doesn't scale quite so well with crit rating as 0/21/40 and uses more debuff space it showed to be a pretty solid build both in dps and self-sufficiency at later gear levels according to the spreadsheet. It also offers a more versatile play style because of it's combination of dot damage and high damage shadow bolts while maintaining blood pact for your group.

Something I forgot to mention in my comparison above was that all the builds where assumed to be using a debuff curse as opposed to a damage curse. I'm going to edit it to include that information and point out which specs gain the most from being on a damage curse.
#106SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Krathis View Post
An entry in the first post concerning 21/0/40 may be warranted too. While it doesn't scale quite so well with crit rating as 0/21/40 and uses more debuff space it showed to be a pretty solid build both in dps and self-sufficiency at later gear levels according to the spreadsheet. It also offers a more versatile play style because of it's combination of dot damage and high damage shadow bolts while maintaining blood pact for your group.
You're right.

Adding.


Oh, by the way, the remark about healing warlocks that didn't take damage was not intended to be sarcastic. I was trying to make the distinction between "paying life" (life tap/hellfire/soulshatter) and "taking damage" (everything else). I'll update the original post.

Last edited by Arelenda : 10/19/07 at 4:12 PM.
#107SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
I agree with most of this.. but if you're 0/21/40 and you have to DL/bandage to get your mana your dps will suck compared to any build with siphon life for that extra bit of self-sufficiency.

FSW is such a minor offset, I admit that it's something but it's a far cry from self-sufficiency. Soul leech has two problems.. 1, there's no way that it covers the health needed to self-sufficiently output the high dps of 0/21/40.. 2, you can only get health back from soul leech while standing still and casting (if there's any movement in a fight, you won't get any healing during that movement).

...

For reference, at these dps figures the value of FSW healing is about 1000 hp/min.

30/21/10 doesn't come out all that bad.. top damage, almost self-sufficient (it is SS with FSW), and a big health pool. I would personally take deep affliction with a few sacrificed points for the extra utility, but I really can't say that 30/21/10 is a useless build in this context.
About self sufficience: FSW used to heal me for about half of what Soul Leech brought. I'm not using it any more, though.

My point is that Destro can be self sustainable through consumables, FSW (which every starting warlock can use, regardless of spec) and Soul Leech. If it wants to. There's no need in most fights. Almost every fight has a pocket where you're stable and you can easily get some hots thrown to you. I typically try to be at 80-90% health at all times so I can benefit from Soul Leech procs. When I get a hot thrown, I'll tap to make it last the full duration.


For reference: http://wowwebstats.com/5upyasekfvthq?s=553-1580&a=7 a WWS from Kael'thas. (18 minute fight)

I'm using 0/21/40, with two poins in Soul Leech.

Soul Leech heals me for about 25k. (1200 per minute)
I used 41 lifetaps during the Kael'thas fight for a total of 67k health.

For comparison, hypothetical gains from FSW - 2% * 580k * 1.26 is roughly 14k.
For comparison, hypothetical gains from spamming rejuv pots: 9x4600 is roughly 42k

So if I spam potions, I can do the entire fight being self sufficient. That's not counting healthstones. And this is for a 18 minute fight, with no shaman or spriest.

Soul Leech will obviously not work for damage spikes while moving. In fact, it won't work against damage spikes at all. But Siphon Life or Imp Life Tap won't help much there either. Spike damage requires healing (or pots, or stones). I was arguing about self sufficiency over a large period of time. Fights where large damage spikes are an issue will favor Affliction anyway, since they have Blood Pact.

FSW at my gear level is 14k over 18 minutes. I'd say 400-600 per minute might be a more realistic average for starting raid comms.
#108SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Idk
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
My point is that Destro can be self sustainable through consumables, FSW (which every starting warlock can use, regardless of spec) and Soul Leech. If it wants to. There's no need in most fights. Almost every fight has a pocket where you're stable and you can easily get some hots thrown to you. I typically try to be at 80-90% health at all times so I can benefit from Soul Leech procs. When I get a hot thrown, I'll tap to make it last the full duration.
Bringing consumables into the equation helps 30/21/10 more than it helps 0/21/40 _in this situation_. Consumables are used for the destro spec to maintain self-sufficiency when heals are limited.. a self-sufficient spec like 30/21/10 or 41/X/X can use those potion cooldowns to increase dps instead (whether it's mana pots or destruction pots).

Fights where large damage spikes are an issue will favor Affliction anyway, since they have Blood Pact.
Maybe this is true for your party, it's not true for an individual warlock. Blood pact is worth 660 hp untalented. You only need 4401 hp from stamina before demonic embrace provides more hp than blood pact. At even starting raid gear levels, DE is going to be much more improvement for your health pool than blood pact.
#109SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krathis
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
Maybe this is true for your party, it's not true for an individual warlock. Blood pact is worth 660 hp untalented. You only need 4401 hp from stamina before demonic embrace provides more hp than blood pact. At even starting raid gear levels, DE is going to be much more improvement for your health pool than blood pact.
In spite of this, I'd still rather be taking spike damage as affliction (with or without DE) over 0/21/40. Not just because you have an imp out but because dark pact and siphon life means you'll be at full life more often and affliction builds (rather full or some sort of hybrid) will recover from that damage much faster in any situation where a healer won't or can't top you off.

This of course assumes just random spike damage as opposed to constant spike damage such as warlock tanking. In which case I'd take 0/21/40 over any affliction build that didn't include at least DE.
#110SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Idk
Originally Posted by Krathis View Post
In spite of this, I'd still rather be taking spike damage as affliction (with or without DE) over 0/21/40. Not just because you have an imp out but because dark pact and siphon life means you'll be at full life more often and affliction builds (rather full or some sort of hybrid) will recover from that damage much faster in any situation where a healer won't or can't top you off.

This of course assumes just random spike damage as opposed to constant spike damage such as warlock tanking. In which case I'd take 0/21/40 over any affliction build that didn't include at least DE.
Agreed.
#111SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Suggestive
Originally Posted by Krathis View Post
The biggest survival talent for 30/21/10 in the demo tree is DE. DA is nice, as are the other talents you mentioned, but with all the self-sufficiency talents from affliction the biggest concern would be spike damage.

41/5/15 offers more utility and still gives you DE. Also you end up with dark pact which is a better survival talent then any of the early demonology talents (except possibly DE) in my opinion because you life tap less, meaning your health pool is topped off more often, in addition to this you'll almost always be using an imp which gives you another 700 hp or so to deal with spike damage.

As far as the early raiding gear comparison, I ran some numbers through Leulier's spreadsheet using the following, 900 shadow and fire damage, 12% base crit, and 6% hit rating. Used the base spread sheet assumptions of 60% ISB uptime, 1.13 CoS, 1.1 CoE, full scorch stack, misery, and full shadow weaving.

30/21/10 - 903 dps (-14.81 hp/s) (Note 30 more spell damage because of DA)
41/5/15 - 895 dps (+32.71 hp/s) (Note this build has 4% more crit because of devastation)
21/0/40 - 871 dps (-21.8 hp/s) (Note this build has 8% more crit because of devastation and backlash)
0/21/40 - 906 dps (-111.62 hp/s) (Note this build has 8% more crit because of devastation and backlash, and 30 more spell damage because of DA)

And some comparisons at 1200 shadow and fire damage, 16% base crit, and 13% hit. Going to leave out the notes on adjusted crit and spell damage for talents on this one but they'll be in the calculations.

30/21/10 - 1180 dps (+8.07 hp/s)
41/5/15 - 1155 dps (+51.48 hp/s)
21/0/40 - 1248 dps (+16.78 hp/s)
0/21/40 - 1215 dps (-103.14 hp/s)

Conclusion, 30/21/10 scales better then UA builds but doesn't match the efficiency of dark pact. Granted it's drain life is more beefy thus allowing you to recover from spike damage faster then a UA build would.

Rather or not the 8 dps gain at early gear levels or the 25 dps gain at later gear levels is worth the trade off in ISB uptime or possibly losing malediction (keep in mind all these numbers use shadow malediction in the calculations) we can debate all day but there's the numbers for anyone that was curious.

*edit* Something I forgot to mention in these number comparisons is that every spec was put on curse of elements. Given that running a damage curse over a debuff curse would be an option the spec that would gain the most would be 30/21/10, followed by 0/21/40, 41/5/15, and 21/0/40. All sac builds used a succubus sacrifice, all casting rotations where for optimal damage allowance according to the spreadsheet except life tap which was simply left 'as needed', the filler spell was shadow bolt for every spec, and no pet damage was used in any comparison.

It's probably worth mentioning that if you raid with four warlocks 30/21/10 could produce some pretty good numbers. For one you'd have three other warlocks helping to maintaining ISB, you'd have three other warlocks to take care of curse of elements, shadows, and recklessness leaving you open to using doom or agony, and most likely you'd have at least one affliction warlock maintaining SE and/or Malediction. Debuff space however could be an issue especially if more then one of the other 'locks was affliction and more then one shadow priest was in the raid.
Umm, i have to question the math, or talent input or something you did here. I wondered how 21/0/40 could possibly beat 0/21/40 on the strength of empowered corruption alone, while losing 15% shadow damage and 30 spell damage so i grabbed a spreadsheet to do the math. I show 0/21/40 at least 60-70 DPS ahead of 21/0/40. This is using both nenad's, and liuleirs spreadsheet. Even using the best case scenario for 21/0/40, and the worst case for 0/21/40 shows 0/21/40 ahead. What did you do exactly?

As far as the 30/21/10 discussion goes, its undeniably decent enough DPS. It simply brings close to 0 utility that isn't trumped by other builds to the raid so its not seen much. Kind of a jack of all trades, but master of none.

Last edited by Suggestive : 10/20/07 at 4:21 AM.
#112SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Suggestive View Post
Umm, i have to question the math, or talent input or something you did here. I wondered how 21/0/40 could possibly beat 0/21/40 on the strength of empowered corruption alone, while losing 15% shadow damage and 30 spell damage so i grabbed a spreadsheet to do the math. I show 0/21/40 at least 60-70 DPS ahead of 21/0/40. This is using both nenad's, and liuleirs spreadsheet. Even using the best case scenario for 21/0/40, and the worst case for 0/21/40 shows 0/21/40 ahead. What did you do exactly?
You're forgetting imp lifetap. It's not _just_ empowered corruption. Imp Lifetap means 16% less time spent lifetapping.

Not that it makes your point less valid.
There is no way it can keep up with a bolting spec, with Shadowbolts that hit for less and crit 8% less. It loses in straight dps vs destro, it doesn't get any of the support things the other specs do (Malediction, -5% damage, blood pact for affliction, high ISB uptime for destro). The _only_ upside is that you require less healing.
#113SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Suggestive
I had imp lifetap and nightfall accounted for too, i should have mentioned that. It just blew me away that he showed 21/0/40 ahead at all, so i checked.
#114SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krathis
Originally Posted by Suggestive View Post
Umm, i have to question the math, or talent input or something you did here. I wondered how 21/0/40 could possibly beat 0/21/40 on the strength of empowered corruption alone, while losing 15% shadow damage and 30 spell damage so i grabbed a spreadsheet to do the math. I show 0/21/40 at least 60-70 DPS ahead of 21/0/40. This is using both nenad's, and liuleirs spreadsheet. Even using the best case scenario for 21/0/40, and the worst case for 0/21/40 shows 0/21/40 ahead. What did you do exactly?
Hmm... I double checked everything today and came up with way different numbers on both these specs.

Got 1194 at +4.89 hp/s for 21/0/40 and 1245 at -93 hp/s for 0/21/40. I'm questioning rather or not open office reads the spreadsheet correctly but did manage to reproduce at least the dps on both these specs by opening and closing the program and reentering the data (though the hp/s came out way different on the 21/0/40 build the second time around).

Not saying human error couldn't have accounted for the original mistake but I've seen some odd behavior from the spreadsheet with open office so it does have me wondering.
#115SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krathis
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
There is no way it can keep up with a bolting spec, with Shadowbolts that hit for less and crit 8% less. It loses in straight dps vs destro, it doesn't get any of the support things the other specs do (Malediction, -5% damage, blood pact for affliction, high ISB uptime for destro). The _only_ upside is that you require less healing.
Are you referring to 21/0/40 here or 30/21/10? Because 21/0/40 (which I'm goofing around with right now for the weekend to see how well it works) has the same crit rating as 0/21/40 as well as blood pact.

The other advantage I see to using a 21/0/40 build is the damage you gain in movement heavy fights from using corruption and sl.

All that said I'll probably use the old standby if I ever make the permanent switch from demonology.
#116SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Krathis View Post
Are you referring to 21/0/40 here or 30/21/10? Because 21/0/40 (which I'm goofing around with right now for the weekend to see how well it works) has the same crit rating as 0/21/40 as well as blood pact.

The other advantage I see to using a 21/0/40 build is the damage you gain in movement heavy fights from using corruption and sl.

All that said I'll probably use the old standby if I ever make the permanent switch from demonology.
I was refering to 30/21/10. Due to the reasons I mentioned I won't trust any calculations that make it appear competitive.

21/0/40 is definitely a viable alternative. You take a hit in personal damage, and in hit points, but you're more mana/health efficient and provide blood pact.
#117SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 frmorrison
21/0/40 is certainly a decent build if you have to have an imp out and still get a good use out of Crit gear.

Assuming you didn't have an UA lock (why else would you need an imp out), you lose is malediction and 1-5% less physical damage, which does make a big difference, likely moreso than the extra damage, if any, from 21/0/40.
#118SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Furio
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
21/0/40 is certainly a decent build if you have to have an imp out and still get a good use out of Crit gear.

Assuming you didn't have an UA lock (why else would you need an imp out), you lose is malediction and 1-5% less physical damage, which does make a big difference, likely moreso than the extra damage, if any, from 21/0/40.
This is exactly why I don't understand why there's any discussion of actually raiding with 21/0/40: prima facie, it just doesn't min/max at all. Because the spec has none of the affliction utility (Malediction or Shadow Embrace), it is a personal DPS spec. But, it is less personal DPS, requires more debuff slots, and does not increase ISB uptime when compared to 0/21/40, 1/41/19, or 0/40/21. The only time the DPS from 21/0/40 would be comparable to the other three personal DPS specs is on encounters where the other specs are forced to use an Imp. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only encounter where Demon/Destro warlocks are generally "forced" to use an Imp is Najentus. Granted, the argument that in movement based fights you'll gain DPS from Instant Corruption, Imp LT, and Siphon Life bears some consideration. But, in practice, what movement based fights actually allow Instant Corruption, Imp LT, and Siphon Life to overcome the 15% damage bonus to shadow bolt from 0/21/40 or the pet DPS, 2% more crit, and higher spell damage from a Demonology DPS spec? Keep in mind that it's been consistently demonstrated on these forums through both parses and theory that destro/demon DPS specs can obviate the mobility advantage of instant DOTs by saving Life Taps for times of movement. Still, if anyone has parses that demonstrate well played (meaning high cast-time used and high DOT uptime) 21/0/40 versus a similarly well played "conventional" warlock DPS spec, I'd be more than happy to re-evaluate the actual value of "increased mobility."

Unless you're regularly using an Imp for the MT because you're the only warlock in the raid, it just doesn't make sense for a warlock DPS spec to use an Imp. And, if that is the case, then you'd be far more useful to your raid respeccing to an affliction utility build (something similar to this). Granted, it's conceivable that Malediction is wasted on CoR in a particularly melee heavy raid. In that instance, however, 21/0/40 is still only comparable to the other DPS specs if you're routinely using an Imp for the MT; but, if so, you're still better off with a UA spec because Shadow Embrace further enhances the MT's survival.

The conclusion? With the exception of performing a purely DPS role on the Najentus encounter, 21/0/40 is suboptimal when compared to other warlock DPS specs. Thus, like 30/21/10, it's a spec that demonstrates a warlocks lack of deeper understanding of how the class talents and game scaling work.

Edit: A typo was missed during the initial proof-reading, sorry.

Last edited by Furio : 10/21/07 at 6:59 AM.
#119SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krathis
Originally Posted by Furio View Post
The conclusion? With the exception of performing a purely DPS role on the Najentus encounter, 21/0/40 is suboptimal when compared to other warlock DPS specs. Thus, like 30/21/10, it's a spec that demonstrates a warlocks lack of deeper understanding of how the class talents and game scaling work.

Edit: A typo was missed during the initial proof-reading, sorry.
The ISB uptime difference between 21/0/40 and 0/21/40 isn't that large assuming you're not the only warlock in the raid creating uptime. If you are the gap is pretty huge but that's generally not the case. Remember uptime isn't just the number of shadow bolts cast but also the crit rating in relation to the number of shadow bolts cast. 21/0/40 will cast fewer bolts but the crit rating should be very similar to 0/21/40.

The real benefit I see of 21/0/40 over 0/21/40 is less reliance on hots to sustain dps. If you're raid set up is such that you regularly get topped off or dropped a hot after tapping then 0/21/40 is the superior spec in 90% of fights. 0/21/40 gains more benefit from moonkin and elemental shaman buffs though then 21/0/40 for obvious reasons.

I wouldn't say someone speccing 21/0/40 lacks a deeper understanding of the class or game scaling. The spec does have it's place and it's uses depending on raid make up much like 30/21/10 being a decent spec for a four 'lock raid that only uses one shadow priest. I think 21/0/40 is much less of a niche build then 30/21/10 though.

Personally I plan to stick with demo for a good long time. Just playing devil's advocate here.
#120SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Krathis View Post
I wouldn't say someone speccing 21/0/40 lacks a deeper understanding of the class or game scaling. The spec does have it's place and it's uses depending on raid make up much like 30/21/10 being a decent spec for a four 'lock raid that only uses one shadow priest. I think 21/0/40 is much less of a niche build then 30/21/10 though.

Personally I plan to stick with demo for a good long time. Just playing devil's advocate here.
I think your arguments for 21/0/40 are pretty valid. There are a number of worthwhile builds with x/x/40. None of them is likely to outdps 0/21/40, but it'll be close enough for gear/skill/latency to be the more significant factor, and there's some nice utility involved.

But 30/21/10 is just horrible, especially with multiple locks in the raid. The spec relies on throwing Shadow Bolts in between Corruption/Siphon, about as much as the destruction warlock.

Except those bolts do less damage, and are at 8% less crit. Occasionally Nightfall procs, making you eat even more charges. The affliction warlock /spriests will not be too happy about the debuffs you're slapping on there, and the destro warlock won't be too happy to see his ISBs being eaten by weak Shadow Bolts. And all this so you have to be healed less than the destro warlock.

It'll do damage. No one is saying it won't. But its total lack of synergy with other shadow people, and undeniably lower individual dps, in addition to the mediocre utility gained from Siphon Life, make it a clearly inferior choice over any of the other available builds listed in the Compendium.
#121SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Krathis
The only way I see 30/21/10 being viable is if you have three other 'locks to run CoR, CoS, and CoE for you as well as keep ISB up. On top of that you'd need a raid that was somehow light on debuff space. So if two of those other three 'locks where affliction and you had one shadow priest it wouldn't work. The reason for this is the only way a 30/21/10 warlock can pull a substantial lead over other specs is through amplified dooms. The spec does it better then any other spec. I don't think this alone would be enough to give the spec a dps lead over a 0/21/40 spec assuming both 'locks where dropping doom rather then a utility curse.

Really though I agree with whoever said you may as well just find another shadow priest instead. For the debuff space used a second shadow priest would return way more utility then a fourth warlock, especially if that fourth warlock is running this spec.

Last edited by Krathis : 10/22/07 at 12:34 AM.
#122SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Krathis View Post
The reason for this is the only way a 30/21/10 warlock can pull a substantial lead over other specs is through amplified dooms.
Unfortunately, amp curse only affects the base damage, so adds 2100 damage over the unamped version. Also, COD is not affected by Shadow Mastery.

You're looking at 2100 damage per 3 minutes over the destro version, or 12dps. In return, the spell you spam continuously does less damage.

Just let it rest. It's never ever going to outdps an equally competent equally geared destro warlock. Except if you bring no healers.
#123SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Borodin
This is a wonderful resource and the great debate means it's still being expanded and refined. I specced my Warlock as deep Affliction (44/0/17) originally as back then I don't think it was obvious that Destruction would overtake it so soon for pure Raid DPS.

But I'm still chuckling at Arelenda's downranked Immolate as it lays to rest a wee debate we had on our guild forum long before he started this thread

Sorry I've nothing constructive to add other than as a Warlock Alt Player I say "Keep up the great work".
#124SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Cronjob
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
But 30/21/10 is just horrible, especially with multiple locks in the raid. The spec relies on throwing Shadow Bolts in between Corruption/Siphon, about as much as the destruction warlock.

Except those bolts do less damage, and are at 8% less crit. Occasionally Nightfall procs, making you eat even more charges. The affliction warlock /spriests will not be too happy about the debuffs you're slapping on there, and the destro warlock won't be too happy to see his ISBs being eaten by weak Shadow Bolts. And all this so you have to be healed less than the destro warlock.
The point of ISB is not to increase that one single 0/21/40 Warlocks DPS, it helps the overall raid DPS. There is no guarantee that the 30/21/10 warlock will "eat" it. Also I think you underestimate the the bolts this build puts out, albiet not as high crits they are much better than an Affliction lock. Remember 30% of your DPS for non bolt spammer builds still comes from Bolts.

I think the point some of you are still missing is that with this spec you trade raid utility for versatility. This can certainly be a bad thing if every lock specced this way just like it would be a bad thing if every lock was FG Raid spec. However if you have other locks filling the utility role then having one of these locks or an FG raid spec lock doesnt hurt and they have potential to put out numbers.


EDIT::

This was from our Hydross kill the other night. Not my best night as I had UI and Lag issues. Also no Doom was used and I think I was on CoR duty on this one (cant remember, sleeped since then)

Wow Web Stats

Last edited by Cronjob : 10/22/07 at 11:27 AM.
#125SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Vlar
As to the 30/21/10 issue:

I tried it early on (learning VR and Lurker) and while it was competitive in the DPS aspect, the lack of threat reduction is what made me respec. I was doing above average DPS for the raid, but I was gaining threat to a degree where I couldn't continue DPS until my shatter cooldown finished.

As to CoR:

You are missing a major aspect to CoR. Not only do you have to figure in melee DPS compared to Doom, you also need to add in the DPS increase of all classes due to the higher threat generation of the tank. If I recall correctly, Pre-BC CoR increased raid DPS by 3%.
#126SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Graall
The original post in this thread provides guidance for gear choice for each of the builds it reviews. For both demonolgy and destruction specs it recommends spell haste as being more valuable than either spell crit, or spell damage. This runs contrary to most of the advice and simulation/theorycrating I have read such as:

Warlock scaling simulation

I've also spent some time playing around with the warlock dps spreadsheets and have not seen spell haste as being more valuable in terms of dps than simply adding more +damage.

Is there a factor that I am missing that makes spell haste more valuable to these builds than is immediately obvious?
#127SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rochan
Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
The point of ISB is not to increase that one single 0/21/40 Warlocks DPS, it helps the overall raid DPS. There is no guarantee that the 30/21/10 warlock will "eat" it. Also I think you underestimate the the bolts this build puts out, albiet not as high crits they are much better than an Affliction lock. Remember 30% of your DPS for non bolt spammer builds still comes from Bolts.

I think the point some of you are still missing is that with this spec you trade raid utility for versatility. This can certainly be a bad thing if every lock specced this way just like it would be a bad thing if every lock was FG Raid spec. However if you have other locks filling the utility role then having one of these locks or an FG raid spec lock doesnt hurt and they have potential to put out numbers.


EDIT::

This was from our Hydross kill the other night. Not my best night as I had UI and Lag issues. Also no Doom was used and I think I was on CoR duty on this one (cant remember, sleeped since then)

Wow Web Stats
You are deluding yourself if you think a 30/21/10 build is an optimal raiding build. And to top it off, you link an AoE fight?

Although I have to admit, 30/21/10 probably puts out the strongest Seed of Corruption
#128SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Antoine
At most reasonable gear levels, haste is approximately as good as spell damage as 0/21/40 (for me, .99 haste is 1 damage). It's really personal preference.
#129SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Graall View Post
The original post in this thread provides guidance for gear choice for each of the builds it reviews. For both demonolgy and destruction specs it recommends spell haste as being more valuable than either spell crit, or spell damage. This runs contrary to most of the advice and simulation/theorycrating I have read such as:

Warlock scaling simulation

I've also spent some time playing around with the warlock dps spreadsheets and have not seen spell haste as being more valuable in terms of dps than simply adding more +damage.

Is there a factor that I am missing that makes spell haste more valuable to these builds than is immediately obvious?
Well, I'm basing that on ShadowSeer data. It measures total time spent casting, calculates hypothetical time gained with a bonus x to haste rating, and turns it into hypothetical shadow bolt spam (including ISB estimate and with lifetap/dark pact to compensate for the mana cost). The damage output of those extra bolts is considered as the hypothetical gain for x haste rating

It calculates the gains for +damage too, by calculation the % increase your base spells get from a bonus to spellpower. It then applies this to your totals. That's the hypothetical gain from damage.

The numbers for gaining 100 haste are consistently higher for me (0/21/40) than for 100 points in any other rating (or 100 damage).

for reference, I have 1220 spellpower buffed with Fel Armor. Around 150 hit and 290 crit rating. 100 more spelldamage boosts my dps with around 5%. 100 haste usually translates into 7-8%. Crit and Hit vary, since ISB varies a lot between bosses and trash.



Main theory is this: all stats have diminishing returns. At the moment haste gear becomes available, warlocks are already packing 1200+ spellpower. Upping haste gets you a %based increase. You need quite a bit of spellpower to get the same % since you already have tons. The highest increases are for the first points of haste. It probably reaches saturation pretty quickly. I estimate it at 150-250 but that's just an educated guess.


The problem is that this is all theory. The _real_ benefits of haste, especially given the low effective difference in casting time, are plain impossible to measure. There's no way to filter out lag.
#130SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
You are deluding yourself if you think a 30/21/10 build is an optimal raiding build. And to top it off, you link an AoE fight?

Although I have to admit, 30/21/10 probably puts out the strongest Seed of Corruption
That is a good point, though. We overlooked SoC. SoC spam fights might be tipped in favor of 30/21/10.

As for 30/21/10 and ISB... Affliction Warlocks get a nice bonus from ISB to all their dots, without consuming charges. Hence the high synergy between destro/affliction.
#131SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Cronjob
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
You are deluding yourself if you think a 30/21/10 build is an optimal raiding build. And to top it off, you link an AoE fight?

Although I have to admit, 30/21/10 probably puts out the strongest Seed of Corruption

I'll post some TK stuff from this week, maybe Al'ar or something else in there non AOE.

Again I am not saying this is the build that saves WOW, just saying its not crap and if other locks fill the other roles then this is viable as is the FG raid spec even at the higher gear levels.


Vlar,

You are correct the Aggro is an issue on the destruction side for this build however not so for the Affliction side, atleast not anymore so than a UA lock.
#132SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
The point of ISB is not to increase that one single 0/21/40 Warlocks DPS, it helps the overall raid DPS. There is no guarantee that the 30/21/10 warlock will "eat" it. Also I think you underestimate the the bolts this build puts out, albiet not as high crits they are much better than an Affliction lock. Remember 30% of your DPS for non bolt spammer builds still comes from Bolts.

I think the point some of you are still missing is that with this spec you trade raid utility for versatility. This can certainly be a bad thing if every lock specced this way just like it would be a bad thing if every lock was FG Raid spec. However if you have other locks filling the utility role then having one of these locks or an FG raid spec lock doesnt hurt and they have potential to put out numbers.
The 30/21/10 lock will be doing about ~60% of his casting time on SBs with a significantly lower crit rate than 21/40. There is no guarantee he won't crit, but on the average he will be lowering the ISB uptime for the raid (even more than an affliction lock -- who at least provides malediction/SE to the raid).

The "it does ok" argument just doesn't stick for me. I could find some random talent build that "does ok" but I don't see the point in the context of raiding. I'm constantly trying to find ways to eek out another dps of my toon, so losing some firepower (let alone comparatively nerfing shadow raid damage and eating 2-3 more debuff slots) in exchange for 2 instant dots and some healing just doesn't cut the mustard.

In conclusion, the argument is going like this:
pro-30/21/10: "It's not the best, but that's ok"
anti-30/21/10: "It's not the best, and that's not ok"

So I'm signing out on this one ... :P
#133SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3calisti
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
- Greater blessings cast on warlocks will also affect their demons. Hunter pets get the greater blessings cast on Warriors instead.
Actually, the greater blessings received by warlock pets depends upon the pet. The felguard receives warrior blessings, while all of the other pets receive warlock blessings. The only one I'm unsure about is the voidwalker, but this pet is pretty much useless in a raid setting.

It is also worth noting that phase shifted imps do not receive any group buffs. If a demonology warlock is using an imp, remember to remove phase shift before the group starts buffing. Also remember to reactivate phase shift before entering combat, or AoE abilities will insta-gib your imp. If you do forget to activate phase shift, you can always turn on autocast, dismiss the imp, and resummon it to keep its buffs and have it phase shift.
#134SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by calisti View Post
Actually, the greater blessings received by warlock pets depends upon the pet. The felguard receives warrior blessings, while all of the other pets receive warlock blessings. The only one I'm unsure about is the voidwalker, but this pet is pretty much useless in a raid setting.

It is also worth noting that phase shifted imps do not receive any group buffs. If a demonology warlock is using an imp, remember to remove phase shift before the group starts buffing. Also remember to reactivate phase shift before entering combat, or AoE abilities will insta-gib your imp. If you do forget to activate phase shift, you can always turn on autocast, dismiss the imp, and resummon it to keep its buffs and have it phase shift.
Thanks! Added.
#135SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Furio
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
In conclusion, the argument is going like this:
pro-30/21/10: "It's not the best, but that's ok"
anti-30/21/10: "It's not the best, and that's not ok"
Thanks for so succinctly summarizing the argument.

Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
The point of ISB is not to increase that one single 0/21/40 Warlocks DPS, it helps the overall raid DPS. There is no guarantee that the 30/21/10 warlock will "eat" it. Also I think you underestimate the the bolts this build puts out, albiet not as high crits they are much better than an Affliction lock. Remember 30% of your DPS for non bolt spammer builds still comes from Bolts.
But an Affliction 'lock has higher crit, should increase ISB uptime, and eats less ISB charges when compared to 30/21/10.

Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
I think the point some of you are still missing is that with this spec you trade raid utility for versatility. This can certainly be a bad thing if every lock specced this way just like it would be a bad thing if every lock was FG Raid spec. However if you have other locks filling the utility role then having one of these locks or an FG raid spec lock doesnt hurt and they have potential to put out numbers.
What versatility? 30/21/10 has no utility and suffers more from using an Imp than any other spec discussed in this thread. Perhaps myself and the other "anti-30/21/10" advocates are missing something crucial, but all I (we) can see is a trade of all utility, all +crit talents, Ruin, and Shadow and Flame/Demon defensive and offensive talents/UA for Imp LT, Instant Corruption, Siphon Life and Shadow Mastery. In short, 30/21/0 ignores the defining talents in every tree to gain what appears to be little.


Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
This was from our Hydross kill the other night. Not my best night as I had UI and Lag issues. Also no Doom was used and I think I was on CoR duty on this one (cant remember, sleeped since then)

Wow Web Stats
I'm not sure what this parse is supposed to show. You out-DPSed the other two warlocks present. 'Grats? I hope you realize you can't conclude your spec is superior just because you out-DPS the other warlocks in your raids. After all, a cursory glance through the parse demonstrates the other two warlocks are affliction (ill-suited for that particular encounter) and had significantly lower DOT uptime than you (indicating worse play). Not to mention this is an AOE fight and the single advantage your spec has over others is higher SoC damage. By the way, to give you some perspective, you should search WWS for other Hydross parses. You'll find that well played Felguard 'locks, even at your gear level, output 1400-1500+ DPS (as compared to your 1050 DPS).



Originally Posted by Krathis View Post
The real benefit I see of 21/0/40 over 0/21/40 is less reliance on hots to sustain dps. If you're raid set up is such that you regularly get topped off or dropped a hot after tapping then 0/21/40 is the superior spec in 90% of fights.
I have to take offense with the notion that a player should spec (or gear) sub-optimally to cover for weaknesses in other parts of the raid - specifically healing. Maximizing your individual ability to contribute is just as much about helping and teaching your raid-mates as it is about perfecting your own play. If you have to count on Siphon Life to fuel your Life Taps, then something is very wrong. Your time would be best spent trying to understand and fix the problems preventing healers from tossing you a HOT or a direct heal occasionally. I realize some raids are healing strapped, but I can't imagine a successful raid that is so healing strapped it can't spare a few GCDs and several hundred mana to fuel a warlock.


My theme appears to be my lack of imagination for situations when 30/21/10, 21/0/40, and other such "non-maximized" specs actually shine. While supporters of such specs may be quick to point out examples, I challenge those supporters to justify why it's "ok" to be sub-optimal most of the time just to be able to occasionally, but rarely, thriving. From my calculus, the expected value of such specs is significantly lower than that of the "conventional" specs.
#136SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Furio View Post
My theme appears to be my lack of imagination for situations when 30/21/10, 21/0/40, and other such "non-maximized" specs actually shine. While supporters of such specs may be quick to point out examples, I challenge those supporters to justify why it's "ok" to be sub-optimal most of the time just to be able to occasionally, but rarely, thriving. From my calculus, the expected value of such specs is significantly lower than that of the "conventional" specs.
I'd rather you not lump them all together. Any build with 40 points in destruction can be completed with 21 points spread according to taste, and will not be outdamaged by more than 15% by 0/21/40. And it'll have an imp out. Given the relatively low impact of maximum 15% of personal dps vs some utility, I think other factors (personal skill, latency, deaths) will be much more important in determining outcome of a fight (or final dps, if that's what you care about).

No sane person is saying it consistently outdamages 0/21/40. It's easily proven not to be so.

But one could make a case for it to be close enough dpswise, and at that point we're arguing about tastes, really. Benefits of Blood Pact/Imp LT/Shadowfury or whatever else you can fit in 0/0/40 vs max15% dps are not measurable and highly subjective. I personally prefer 0/21/40, but I wouldn't call anyone speccing differently wrong by default.

I'm pretty convinced that for almost any raid community, raid dps/efficiency could be boosted more by focusing on other matters, instead of fussing over those 21 demonology points.

This is my last say on the matter, as I don't see any point in discussing 30/21/10 or different warlock tastes. The Compendium lists the default specs, with some alternatives that are popular, detailing tradeoffs made. That's all it needs to, so my work is done on that part.
#137SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rochan
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
I'd rather you not lump them all together. Any build with 40 points in destruction can be completed with 21 points spread according to taste, and will not be outdamaged by more than 15% by 0/21/40. And it'll have an imp out. Given the relatively low impact of maximum 15% of personal dps vs some utility, I think other factors (personal skill, latency, deaths) will be much more important in determining outcome of a fight (or final dps, if that's what you care about).

No sane person is saying it consistently outdamages 0/21/40. It's easily proven not to be so.

But one could make a case for it to be close enough dpswise, and at that point we're arguing about tastes, really. Benefits of Blood Pact/Imp LT/Shadowfury or whatever else you can fit in 0/0/40 vs max15% dps are not measurable and highly subjective. I personally prefer 0/21/40, but I wouldn't call anyone speccing differently wrong by default.

I'm pretty convinced that for almost any raid community, raid dps/efficiency could be boosted more by focusing on other matters, instead of fussing over those 21 demonology points.

This is my last say on the matter, as I don't see any point in discussing 30/21/10 or different warlock tastes. The Compendium lists the default specs, with some alternatives that are popular, detailing tradeoffs made. That's all it needs to, so my work is done on that part.

Ah but the thing is, if 21/0/40 is so great because you get an imp but do less damage than 0/21/40, why not go 41/0/20 or a variant to get more damage as well as more utility?

It's simply a mediocre spec - it will do ok, but there are better specs out there.
#138SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Cronjob
Originally Posted by Furio View Post

I'm not sure what this parse is supposed to show. You out-DPSed the other two warlocks present. 'Grats? I hope you realize you can't conclude your spec is superior just because you out-DPS the other warlocks in your raids. Not to mention this is an AOE fight and the single advantage your spec has over others is higher SoC damage.

My theme appears to be my lack of imagination for situations when 30/21/10, 21/0/40, and other such "non-maximized" specs actually shine.
Heh, I thanks for making my point. First you say 30/21/10 has the advantage because its an AOE fight. Then you say you lack imagination for situations when 30/21/10, actually shine... Which is it?

Any who, forget I mention it, this is just like the old Affliction vs Destro build where most folks just pick one side and fail to consider the other.

So it was said its crap for DPS, then IDK posts numbers showing not so. Then I post logs which again show its not crap for DPS. I knew by posting the logs somone would use the arguement well the other locks "suck" arguement or its a movement fight so 0/21/40 doesnt get to bolt spam, or its not dot friendly or pick any excuse. I'm sure I made mistakes too if you look closely where I could improve.

Its said the build lacks versatility and there aren't any fights where it will shine, yet by your own admission you say it shines in AOE fights.

Either way, I'm done with this.
#139SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Saethar
One thing worth adding to the Compendium is that Rank 3 Curse of the Elements should be used over Rank 4, and Rank 2 Curse of Shadow over Rank 3. The new, post-60 ranks of those Curses aren't prioritized in the debuff system, while their lower level counterparts are.

Both offer the increased 10% damage to their respective schools and cost less mana as an added benefit. The spell penetration they offer doesn't affect PvE targets.



EDIT: Oops, I just noticed it was mentioned to a certain extent in the first post.
#140SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by vlar
As to CoR: You are missing a major aspect to CoR. Not only do you have to figure in melee DPS compared to Doom, you also need to add in the DPS increase of all classes due to the higher threat generation of the tank. If I recall correctly, Pre-BC CoR increased raid DPS by 3%.
You're correct if the raid is threat capped. If so, CoR increases the tank's threat gen in 2 ways. It ups his damage done by reduced armor, but also gives him more rage since he's taking more damage. However if the fight isn't threat-capped, that DPS increase shouldn't be counted.
#141SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Furio
Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
Heh, I thanks for making my point. First you say 30/21/10 has the advantage because its an AOE fight. Then you say you lack imagination for situations when 30/21/10, actually shine... Which is it?

...[irrelevant to the response]...

Its said the build lacks versatility and there aren't any fights where it will shine, yet by your own admission you say it shines in AOE fights.

Either way, I'm done with this.
I think you're missing the point. While I agree 30/21/10 has the highest damage SoC of any spec, that does not mean it "shines" in AOE fights. You'll note that from your own linked parse SoC accounts for just 43% of your DPS. Even in Morogrim, perhaps the fight most friendly to SoC spam, SoC generally does not account for more than 55% of top warlock's DPS (as evidenced by these parses). While not casting SoC, the rest of your damage is diminished relative to other specs. Is the slight AOE advantage on a few specific encounters worth the diminished DPS/Utility in every non-AOE aspect of raid encounters? Given that no one spec is strictly better than the others, would you rather be better than the rest at a small fraction of raiding or a large fraction?



To Arelenda: Thanks for the time and effort compiling this thread. I realize part of the spec debates come to down to "personal taste" in so far as willingness to min/max for a specific role. Further commentary on the topic is likely fruitless. Perhaps, though, it would be useful to more clearly denote the raid relevant differences between the default specs and the listed alternatives. For example:
"The Siphon Life spec drops Demonic Sacrifice for Improved Life Tap and Siphon Life, making you more self reliant. Key talents are the standard destro ones (SnF, Ruin, +8% crit) and Siphon Life. Not as high dps output as the default build, but does require less heals and Life Taps and provides Blood Pact."
...becomes:
"The Siphon Life spec drops Demonic Sacrifice for Improved Life Tap and Siphon Life, making you more self reliant. Key talents are the standard destro ones (SnF, Ruin, +8% crit) and Siphon Life. As much as 15% less DPS than default build. Loses 15% shadow damage, 30 spell damage, 6% healing received, 18% Stamina, 3% Intellect, and Demonic Sacrifice. Gains unimproved Blood Pact (minimizes net stamina change), Improved Life Tap, Instant Corruption, Siphon Life, and -10% Affliction Threat."
#142SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3PSGarak
"Versatility" doesn't mean much in the context of a pure dps class. From a raid perspective, damage by DOTs or damage by nukes is just damage. Yes, 30/21/10 has greater "versatility," but I don't see what good that is. Just like the threat value of CoR doesn't matter if your tank's threat is already top-notch, the self-reliance of 30/21/10 doesn't matter if your healers have mana to spare. And the odd thing is, either you or they will have more mana to spare with 21/40 or 40/21, depending on who has the happy shadow priest, so it can easily end up being a wash anyways.
Perhaps we can name 30/21/10 "Seed Spec"? =P

As far as 21/0/40... yeees, the difference is capped at 15%... 15% is fucking huge. If one of my dpsers was underperforming by 15% they'd get a swift kick in the ass and told to stop falling asleep or let their younger brother play their account. While the real difference is going to be smaller, it's not going to be by much. Siphon Life is a piddling little spell for damage and the talents between 7 and 21 affliction don't really do much but set up talents further down the tree. My suggestion would be to stop at 7 in affliction flesh out a few talents in destro, and get some toys in demo instead. Something like this. Just as 'viable' for raiding but more fun and flexible outside.
#143SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Saethar View Post
The spell penetration they offer doesn't affect PvE targets.
Some of the Hyjal trash (the felhunters) and a +all resistance aura, Supremus has very high fire resist, and Illidari council can cast a 250 to all resist buff.


Certainly those are limited, but worth noting.


If you don't have debuff slot issues, you should pay the extra 100 mana just in case.
#144SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
I poked around that WWS for a bit, and found that, given ruin and 8% more crit, the damage was about equal for both specs. But that's not why I'm posting.

I noticed a major difference in debuffs in both raids.

Here's the details on Hydross from Cronjob's WWS on Fate's Hand Hydross Kill:
Hydross the Unstable - WWS -- recorded by a Hunter


And here's details on Hydross from a Hydross kill from my own raiding guild, TFR:
Hydross the Unstable - WWS -- recorded by an enhancement Shaman

Note the huge difference in debuffs. One Thunder Clap. One CoR (which lasts 2 minutes). ONE application of Shadow Vulnerability.

Can anyone with more experience than me with WWS explain the existence of this discrepance? At first I figured it was because debuffs were being reapplied before they ran out (and therefore not shown in the combat log), but Hydross seems to get debuffed by Mind Flay 11 times, despite a Shadow Priest in FH doing 100% of his damage on Hydross, almost half of it through Mind Flay.

The only plausible explanation I can come up with, is that the FH log is recorded by a Hunter, and the TFR one by a melee person. Apparently range has a huge impact on debuff logging by WWS. Can anyone confirm this?

Last edited by Arelenda : 10/23/07 at 12:18 AM.
#145SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Can anyone with more experience than me with WWS explain the existence of this discrepance?
If the debuffer casts the debuff before the last one runs out or if the debuff is shared among players, like Mind Flay, it is possible to have just one debuff in WWS the whole right (since other priests are casting Mind Flay at different times, effectively rolling the debuff).

In addition, sometimes WWS does not pickup debuffs for some reason.
#146SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krathis
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
Perhaps we can name 30/21/10 "Seed Spec"? =P

.
haha.. I like this. If I'm ever feeling rich I may roll into AV after 2.3 with this spec and drop nothing but seeds.

Back on topic, discovered something pretty important concerning ISB uptime today. The debuff is counted when the spell leaves your hands. So if three warlocks have bolts in the air on a mob with one charge left all three will receive the benefits of the debuff even if none of those shadow bolts crit. Granted the way I tested it was on Dr. Boom by putting ISB up and then starting my cast with three seconds left on the debuff. So while it's possible that the debuff works differently when it's the charges that make it fall off rather then it expiring I find it more likely that the code uses one standard. Curses work the same way, if you cast shadow bolt and then drop curse of shadows before your shadow bolt lands you will not receive the added damage from the curse and the opposite is true if you have curse of shadows up, cast a shadow bolt, and then drop a curse of weakness to overwrite your curse of shadows, the shadow bolt will receive the benefit of the first curse.

So any build with a 36 yard range on shadow bolts will affectively get more use out of ISB then any build that does not because of the longer in flight time of their shadow bolts.
#147SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Krathis View Post
Back on topic, discovered something pretty important concerning ISB uptime today. The debuff is counted when the spell leaves your hands. So if three warlocks have bolts in the air on a mob with one charge left all three will receive the benefits of the debuff even if none of those shadow bolts crit. Granted the way I tested it was on Dr. Boom by putting ISB up and then starting my cast with three seconds left on the debuff. So while it's possible that the debuff works differently when it's the charges that make it fall off rather then it expiring I find it more likely that the code uses one standard. Curses work the same way, if you cast shadow bolt and then drop curse of shadows before your shadow bolt lands you will not receive the added damage from the curse and the opposite is true if you have curse of shadows up, cast a shadow bolt, and then drop a curse of weakness to overwrite your curse of shadows, the shadow bolt will receive the benefit of the first curse.

So any build with a 36 yard range on shadow bolts will affectively get more use out of ISB then any build that does not because of the longer in flight time of their shadow bolts.
I noticed this behaviour when coding ShadowSeer. The debuff application usually lags 0.5-0.7seconds behind the crit too. There's all kinds of weirdness in ISB debuff, which is why I don't really trust any theorethical model for it.
#148SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Furio
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
If the debuffer casts the debuff before the last one runs out or if the debuff is shared among players, like Mind Flay, it is possible to have just one debuff in WWS the whole right (since other priests are casting Mind Flay at different times, effectively rolling the debuff).

In addition, sometimes WWS does not pickup debuffs for some reason.

This is exactly correct. If you see more than one Misery, CoR, COS, etc, it means that the debuff fell off and was reapplied.
#149SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Pentamorfi
Originally Posted by Krathis View Post
haha.. I like this. If I'm ever feeling rich I may roll into AV after 2.3 with this spec and drop nothing but seeds.

Back on topic, discovered something pretty important concerning ISB uptime today. The debuff is counted when the spell leaves your hands. So if three warlocks have bolts in the air on a mob with one charge left all three will receive the benefits of the debuff even if none of those shadow bolts crit. Granted the way I tested it was on Dr. Boom by putting ISB up and then starting my cast with three seconds left on the debuff. So while it's possible that the debuff works differently when it's the charges that make it fall off rather then it expiring I find it more likely that the code uses one standard. Curses work the same way, if you cast shadow bolt and then drop curse of shadows before your shadow bolt lands you will not receive the added damage from the curse and the opposite is true if you have curse of shadows up, cast a shadow bolt, and then drop a curse of weakness to overwrite your curse of shadows, the shadow bolt will receive the benefit of the first curse.

So any build with a 36 yard range on shadow bolts will affectively get more use out of ISB then any build that does not because of the longer in flight time of their shadow bolts.
I also suspect that happens with Nightfall procs, though it's harder to test. If both crit the damage they do is about the same, meaning the debuff from the first crit shadowbolt isn't instantly applied on the mob.
#150SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Darkmantle
It's the same case with frost nova on a target then icelance at the same time even if one breaks the frost nova they both get the 50% more crit because their damage and crit chance is decided when they leave your hands not when they hit the target. This is probably done for computational reasons.

This is my speculation about how the servers handle spells and is in no way fact.
It is easier if the server knows a 3k shadowbolt is traveling towards the target with 35% crit rate all it has to do is workout whether it hits/crits/resists on the target(that the fate of the spell is not determined when you cast it can be clearly seen by rogues vanishing deathcoils and the like). The alternative of calculating damage when the target is hit would require the server to lookup the casters spell damage and buffs which could lead to a delay in the damage actually being done. Previously dots had their damage calculated moment to moment from the caster so you could put dots up pop a damage trinket and the dots would start hitting harder along with your sexy shadowbolts. Now the base damage is calculated from your +dmg at casting and each tick checks for debuffs on the mob. Coa used to be even weirder because it would be cast from the warlock, so if the warlock died or went out of range then coa would stop doing damage.

Edit: I tried hitting icon after I had completed a shadowbolt but before it reached the mob and it didn't seem like the shadowbolt got the damage bonus.

Last edited by Darkmantle : 10/23/07 at 10:06 AM.
#151SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nas
While on the subject of specs, I thought I would throw in the following hypothetical situation to see if any mathematically inclined members of the community would be interested in simulating it:

What if a 0/21/40 Destruction nuke build Warlock had both [Ashtongue Talisman of Shadows] and the 4-piece Tier 5 bonus [Hood of the Corruptor]. Would the Warlock notice a DPS boost by speccing 1/21/39 (A point out of SnF, and into Imp. Corruption) and incorporating Corruption into their 'rotation'?
#152SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Arelenda
To summarize:

for nukes: (Shadow Bolt, Soul Fire, etc)

Spellpower is "locked in" at START of the cast.
Multipliers are "locked in" at the COMPLETION of cast.
If it's a projectile, it'll start traveling at that point.


for dots and channeled spells: (Drain Life, Corruption, UA, etc)

Spellpower is "locked" in at START of cast.
Multiplier is recalculated at every tic.

I'm assuming crit bonuses (frost mages vs frozen targets) are also "locked in" at completion of cast, but am unable to test this.

(this information is WRONG, see below)

Last edited by Arelenda : 10/24/07 at 5:42 AM. Reason: updated
#153SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Nas View Post
While on the subject of specs, I thought I would throw in the following hypothetical situation to see if any mathematically inclined members of the community would be interested in simulating it:

What if a 0/21/40 Destruction nuke build Warlock had both [Ashtongue Talisman of Shadows] and the 4-piece Tier 5 bonus [Hood of the Corruptor]. Would the Warlock notice a DPS boost by speccing 1/21/39 (A point out of SnF, and into Imp. Corruption) and incorporating Corruption into their 'rotation'?
I'll assume no internal cooldown.

Assuming you get your corruption to tic every 3s, it'll proc every 15s on average. That means it's up 1/3 of the time, roughly, so gives you 220/3=76 spellpower on average. That's about equal to the [Icon of the Silver Crescent], which has 43+155/6=70spellpower on average. So it's not a great upgrade.



Math for 1/21/39 vs 0/21/40:

Assuming 1300 spell power, 25% crit chance

You're losing 4% of your spellpower on each bolt, which is 2,67% less damage per bolt. (1300*1,06+575 vs 1300*1,02+575 or 1950 vs 1900)

You'll be casting roughly one corruption per 6 shadow bolts. Corruption is 2334 damage (900+1300*0,94 plus 10% set bonus)

The original rotation would get 6.6 shadow bolts off. In theory a bit more damage, but there are a few factors: lower range on corruption, no threat reduction, two additional debuff slots (assuming the T6 set bonus leaves a debuff), and no ISB. I'd say debatable.
#154SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Nas
I imagined it would be a close call, yeah. I think I'll give it a shot and compare WWS's once I obtain the exalted BT trinket, while I do not anticipate earthshattering DPS gains, I am still curious about how it would pan out.

Last edited by Nas : 10/23/07 at 10:28 AM.
#155SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Byram
After all the discussion I've read about how armor does not have diminishing returns in terms of the character's lifespan (though the % reduction does), I'm curious as to how CoR doesn't work in the opposite way (i.e.- each point of armor reduction has an equal effect to shortening the mob's lifespan, though, as has been calculated, the %reduction in armor is reduced with diminishing returns)?

Thanks
#156SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Krathis
Something to note is the four piece tier five bonus is calculated before spell damage. On average it produced a gain of about six damage per tic per shadow bolt applied. Assuming a fully debuffed mob you may push that number as high as 9 or 10 or roughly a 3 dps gain on the last five tics of corruption. Granted it does keep stacking but still the numbers are less then impressive.

Assuming a non-optimal casting rotation of one shadow bolt applied every three seconds (due to lag, movement, or whatever... but mostly just because I don't feel up to breaking down anything more complicated at the moment) here's some numbers.

second tic +10 damage
third tic +20 damage
fourth tic +30 damage
fifth tic +40 damage
sixth tic +50 damage

150 extra damage over eighteen seconds or about eight more dps then without the set bonus. Even if we double that number to 16 to account for DS and ISB (and to give the option some leniency in it's favor) it doesn't make up for the 20 dps loss the 0/21/40 warlock has in Arlenda's example from moving that point out of S & F. Keep in mind too that Arlenda's numbers are calculated assuming no other debuffs on the mob, 1300 spell power 0/21/40 warlocks see closer to 3k point shadow bolts on average in a raid environment.

Unless your dps would go up by moving one point into corruption to begin with (which is very possible for 0/21/40 'locks with lower crit ratings) I wouldn't spec just for the tier five bonus.

The set bonus does not add a debuff but rather amps up the damage of your corruption (when you attempt to reapply a corruption before your amped one falls off you'll get a message much like with amplified curse of agony, 'a more powerful spell is already active'.)

Last edited by Krathis : 10/23/07 at 12:41 PM.
#157SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
I'll assume no internal cooldown.

Assuming you get your corruption to tic every 3s, it'll proc every 15s on average. That means it's up 1/3 of the time, roughly, so gives you 220/3=76 spellpower on average.
Unless the buff stacks, the uptime is slightly lower than this due to 20% of the buffs removing 2 seconds of the previous buff.

Seconds of buff time per tick of corruption = (0.2*0.8*5+0.2*0.2*3)

So uptime = (0.2*0.8*5+0.2*0.2*3)/3 = 30.67%

This brings average spellpower to 67.47 which drops it lower than the Icon for single targets.

As pointed out in other threads, the benefit goes up if you're corrupting multiple targets.
#158SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Vlar
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
You're correct if the raid is threat capped. If so, CoR increases the tank's threat gen in 2 ways. It ups his damage done by reduced armor, but also gives him more rage since he's taking more damage. However if the fight isn't threat-capped, that DPS increase shouldn't be counted.
That may be true, but not including mention of the increased threat production will be a limiting factor if a warlock is trying to inform the raid leader that CoR is beneficial. Since this is supposed to be informative to raiding warlocks, I do not see why all such information would not be included.
#159SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Trickykid
I never said it shouldn't be included, I think it should as it's definitely another component of CoR usage. I was just noting the exceptions to considering it a flat "raid dps" increase.
#160SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
I never said it shouldn't be included, I think it should as it's definitely another component of CoR usage. I was just noting the exceptions to considering it a flat "raid dps" increase.
Included now.
#161SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Demonic Safrice with a Succubus will boost the damage by 15%. .
You misspelled Sacrifice.


To the 1/21/39 people that are using 4 Tier 5 and Ashtongue trinket, it is better dps on paper, but then you have more aggro, less range, and are more affected by spell pushback on Corruption, plus you will use more mana (370 mana in 2 seconds vs 399 mana in 2.5 seconds or 185 mana per second vs 159.6 mana per second), and imp SB will up less.

Not worth it unless you really want to use the Ashtongue trinket.
#162SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Trickykid
In the stat section, I would include intellect as it converts directly to critical strike chance. I think a lot of locks are so stat-averse we forget that. With kings (and gnome racial) this can add a decent amount of weight to some items.
#163SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Soul
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
To summarize:

for nukes: (Shadow Bolt, Soul Fire, etc)

Spellpower is "locked in" at START of the cast.
Multipliers are "locked in" at the COMPLETION of cast.
If it's a projectile, it'll start traveling at that point.


for dots: (Corruption, UA, etc)

Spellpower is "locked" in at START of cast.
Multiplier is recalculated at every tic.
This doesn't seem right. Every indication I have seen is that the damage a nuke does is determined once the spell leaves your hands. Otherwise, it would be optimal to cast your biggest, baddest nuke when your Icon of the Silver Crescent is about to run out. The same thing applies to DoTs: the base damage from spellpower is only applied at the end of cast.

A good way to demonstrate this for nukes is to go to Dr. Boom and dump Searing Pain on him using the Icon of the Silver Crescent. How many spells benefit from the increased damage after the buff fades? It will almost always be zero (lag being a factor here). If spellpower locked in at the start of cast, then you would almost always get one cast benefiting from Spell Power after the buff fades (you start casting Searing Pain. Spell Power fades from you. Your Searing Pain hits Dr. Boom for xxx damage).

The only thing locked in at start of cast is spell haste modifiers... that's why putting a Curse of Tongues on someone midcast has no effect on when that spell finishes.
#164SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Soul View Post
This doesn't seem right. Every indication I have seen is that the damage a nuke does is determined once the spell leaves your hands. Otherwise, it would be optimal to cast your biggest, baddest nuke when your Icon of the Silver Crescent is about to run out.
I'll double check when servers are up, but I doubt I'd be wrong about this.

UPDATE: Turns out I was, in fact, wrong. Thanks for correcting me.


Testing proves:

for nukes: (Shadow Bolt, Soul Fire, etc)

Spellpower AND Multiplier are measured at the COMPLETION of cast.
If it's a projectile, it'll start traveling at that point.

for dots (Corruption, UA, etc)
Spellpower "locked in" at completion of cast.
Multiplier reevaluated per tic

for channeled spells: (Drain Life, Hellfire)
Spellpower is "locked" at START of cast.
Multiplier is recalculated at every tic.

I'm assuming crit bonuses (frost mages vs frozen targets) are also "locked in" at completion of cast, but am unable to test this.

I'll need to update ShadowSeer.

Last edited by Arelenda : 11/21/07 at 7:54 PM.
#165SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
ShadowSeer updated to reflect this. It won't affect data much, though.
#166SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tdurden
I was wondering if a felguard raiding warlock could post not only which fights work well with the spec (as it's been done before), but also some info/guideline of which boss abilities a felguard could be targeted with, and which ones wont target it.

For example, will mark of kaz'rogal affect the felguard? I've never raided with * 41 * but it seems to me that it might be quite hard to optimize it.

Basing this on hunter pets, i reckon that they can't be targeted with Azgalor doom, Teron doom, Mother fatal attraction etc, so are we looking at a "specific target" immunity for the felguard, opposed to getting all kinds of aoe effects (like mark of kaz'rogal)?
#167SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Jaeydn
Originally Posted by tdurden View Post
I was wondering if a felguard raiding warlock could post not only which fights work well with the spec (as it's been done before), but also some info/guideline of which boss abilities a felguard could be targeted with, and which ones wont target it.

For example, will mark of kaz'rogal affect the felguard? I've never raided with * 41 * but it seems to me that it might be quite hard to optimize it.

Basing this on hunter pets, i reckon that they can't be targeted with Azgalor doom, Teron doom, Mother fatal attraction etc, so are we looking at a "specific target" immunity for the felguard, opposed to getting all kinds of aoe effects (like mark of kaz'rogal)?
I've been raiding with a FG for the last week and I'm very happy with it. So far out of everything in BT/Hyjal the only fights I've trouble trying to keep him alive on are Kaz'rogal, Archimonde, and Council. Initially I was specced 6/44/11, but last night I specced 1/44/15 (still deciding where I want to put my last point) and liked it a bit more (moreso for personal reason like my computer's performance and things seem to go a bit smoother spellcasting wise with the non instant corruption, vs casting an instant one and getting *that spell isn't ready yet* when trying to cast my next spell).

For Kaz'rogal my pet seemed to be affected with the mark like other mana users, but mana feed negated that easily enough. Same for RoS, he goes oom as well, but either he was avoiding the damage from the 2nd Essence, or was completely unaffected by it. For the 3rd Essence he was taking some damage from the aura, but he resisted quited a bit since I think raid buffed and with Void Star Talisman he was at 200ish resists, and stayed alive for the fights duration.
For Archimonde the FG can will still be hit by any aoe and can be cursed as well. On Teron he can not be doomed, and still takes damage from random aoe.
Mother, he can't not be fatally attracted.

But so far, any fight that is basically melee friendly the FG is amazing. Aside from the bosses that I listed he was very easy to keep alive and I didn't have to worry about him much, but on the others I was better off using an imp or saccing something as I would have to resummon the pet several times and it wasn't worth it to have him out. Hope that helps some.
#168SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tdurden
I admit that im quite bad at understanding other people's roles in raid environment, so this might be inaccurate.

Judging by your post and my experience as affliction lock only i'd reckon that:

- Najentus: can't be used. Apparently the damage is so much that even 2p t5 can't make it.

- Supremus: as i said i fail at understanding it here, might be good

- Akama: surely amazing

- Teron: surely amazing

- Bloodboil: i reckon hearing something about fel acid that melee needed to pay attention to, but all in all i reckon it works well here too (i suppose that it cant be the target of fel rage yeah?)

- Ros: can it be fixated? phase 2 might work well but i might need a fel puppy. p3 should be good.

- Mother: should be quite good here, unless the shadow rez gear nerfs it to ridiculous. Might despawn if you get ported and need to run too far from it?

- Illidari: what is the problem here that jaeydn reported i'm not so sure

- Illidan: p1 should be good (can't get parasytes right?). p2 is definitely harder to manage. p3 is as p1 but the flames, which i reckon it won't be able to get. p4 shows my lack of knowledge in this, having used just an imp in the past year. is the felguard threat separate or added to the warlock? actually he can't melee him, but i'd like to know how pet threat works anyway

- Winterchill: i guess that it works alright here

- Anatheron: same as before

- Kaz'rogal: not so sure, i guess that with void star talisman etc he will resist quite some marks, but with 1 point in feed im not so sure it's easy to not let it go oom without extra lifetaps (lowering ur dps)

- Azgalor: supposedly quite good in here too. Extra avoidance against rain of fire is nice.

- Archimonde: how does air burst work with it? Can it be directly targeted by it? Will it go in the air if someone in range is air bursted? If so, when it will die from the landing no soul charge will be placed on archimonde right? What about the aoe fear+doomfires? Avoidance works giving it a chance to resist the fear or not (i guess not)?

Thanks for the answers, might be good for a lock approaching the demo way.
#169SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Jaeydn
Najentus, surprisingly I didn't have any trouble keeping the pet up. Usually he would catch a chain heal right after Tidal Shield, or avoid the burst completely.

On Council, I dps on Gathios the Shatterer, and while the pet would sometimes eat a consecrate tick, the combination that plus either blizzard or flamestrike hitting me or the pet would prove to be too much damage and he would die. I mentioned before that my computer is kind of bad so I deal with bad FPS and an internet connection that freezes up every few moments so my reaction time is sometimes too slow to move the pet out of harm. So you might have better luck on that boss than I did, also what you do in the fight might be different.

Mother, I did get ported but both times it wasn't really far so I didn't have an incident of the pet despawning, nor when I got tossed in the air. *I was extremely surprised at my performance on this fight, since normally me and the other affliction lock in the raid place low on top 10/11 for damage. The added resists from the pet allowed me to use a regular dps piece instead of SR, and I resisted a ton of damage overall. Particularly the mana drains, and ended up placing #1.

Supremus, I didn't get to see the FG in action long enough since I died early, but it does well enough just have to manuver it around fires.

Archimonde, he can't be air bursted that I saw, but the fires chewed him up really fast, same with Azgalor. I'd try to move him as soon as I saw the Rain of Fire over the melee but I could barely pull him back to me in time.

Illidan, phase one with him is still basically tank and spank and I don't really have to worry too much about him. Phase two, I keep him next to me unless I see a good opening for him to dps an elemental. Phase three I move him in and out to to dps the boss when he is no danger of being in a fire (I didn't risk sending him in at all on the warlock tank part).

Some of the fights that I wasn't able to successfully keep my pet alive I'll try again next week without using soul link. That would have probably helped a lot since I would tend to take damage after my pet had and vice versa. Then I can weigh wether or not it's worth it keep the non soul linked FG out, or just sac a succy/fg or keep out an imp (dps wise).

I'm still pretty new to this myself, as you said, I've been raiding with either a passive pet or a sacced one for the better part of 2 years. One 2.3 goes live some aspects of raiding demo will be even easier with pets automatically moving to get behind a boss, it was really nice when I had him on PTR when we did ZA.

Last edited by Jaeydn : 10/26/07 at 9:31 AM. Reason: Adding more info.
#170SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tdurden
The 2.3 change surely makes it even better yeah. I guess i'll try it a bit on the ptr too, my main fear is that micromanaging it well < the dps loss.
#171SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Jaeydn
Originally Posted by tdurden View Post
The 2.3 change surely makes it even better yeah. I guess i'll try it a bit on the ptr too, my main fear is that micromanaging it well < the dps loss.
Overall unless it's one of the pet unfriendly fights you rarely have to worry at the FG. Turn on auto cleave and let him run wild. 2pc T5 takes care of him nicely(which I hope they add something like that set bonus to the demo tree) cause I really don't like being chained to those items to retain a spec, but as I am really liking the build I guess I have no choice. =)
#172SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Jaeydn View Post
Najentus, surprisingly I didn't have any trouble keeping the pet up. Usually he would catch a chain heal right after Tidal Shield, or avoid the burst completely.


Archimonde, he can't be air bursted that I saw, but the fires chewed him up really fast, same with Azgalor. I'd try to move him as soon as I saw the Rain of Fire over the melee but I could barely pull him back to me in time.
For Naj, the pet does have a 50% to not get hit. If you don't want to roll the dice, you have a few options. You can run without Soul Link or you can do a pet dismiss when the shield is up and then start recasting the FG (so he keeps his buffs) so he comes back with full health. My guild wants me to have the imp out, so I never got to try either option.

For Archimonde, I think it would be best to sac a Succy or run with phased imp (not sure if you would soul link the imp), doomfires are killer. In addition, if your pet is hitting Arch and you get Air bursted, you need to do a /petfollow so he doesn't despawn.


For General Demo pet info, make sure he gets buffed especially the imp (just unphase him and then rephase, it helps that the imp gets the buffs you get).
#173SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Cohren
What's everyone's thoughts on ForteWarlock? I like it a lot better for DoT timers than DoTimer(Use of /stopcasting macros don't mess up the bars). The other features are quite helpful imo, though I only use the Shard tracker, SS tracker and summoning assistant. I also like the macro for using Ritual of Souls, it will say which healthstone your summoning(2080,2200 etc..). Adds a lot of functionality to Warlocks without jamming your macro page full of things. All of my guilds warlocks now use this mod.

One of the major functions is that regardless of who applies Imp SB to the target, you get the DoT timer with the charges remaining.

If a lot of other people agree maybe it should be added to the addon's section.
#174SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Melkor
I agree about ForteWarlock, the summoning assistant alone is worth the download. I haven't had any experience with the timers though, at present im still using DoTimer to handle that. Though I may have another look at that since you've found it as useful, especially the ISB debuff tracking.
#175SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Gumibear
Originally Posted by tdurden View Post
- Najentus: can't be used. Apparently the damage is so much that even 2p t5 can't make it.
If you happen to have very high stamina, you can leave your Felguard sitting in the back and it will be ok. It needs to have a bit over 9k HP and 3/3 Demonic Resilience to be safe though.

- Supremus: as i said i fail at understanding it here, might be good
Just pull the Felguard out when he switches to the walking around phase and it will be fine. The blue trails of fire don't do anything to the Felguard. It's immune to them.

- Bloodboil: i reckon hearing something about fel acid that melee needed to pay attention to, but all in all i reckon it works well here too (i suppose that it cant be the target of fel rage yeah?)
My Felguard has never gotten Fel Rage. I'm pretty sure it cannot target pets. You need to be careful that the Felguard is always behind the boss because of the wide arc of Bloodboil's abilities.

- Ros: can it be fixated? phase 2 might work well but i might need a fel puppy. p3 should be good.
Pets cannot be fixated by Essence of Suffering. It can get Soul Drain, but we clump together near the boss and use Mass Dispel to get rid of the debuff on anyone it hits. For Essence of Desire, usually an Affliction Warlock uses a Felhunter, and back when we would get to 0 mana for a bit before it died, I would Fel Domination a Felhunter before I went OOM because it would still have a normal mana bar to continue dispelling Rune Shield.

- Mother: should be quite good here, unless the shadow rez gear nerfs it to ridiculous. Might despawn if you get ported and need to run too far from it?
Not an issue if you have a Void Star Talisman. Its SR will cap, and the Felguard's DPS doesn't suffer too much since so much of its DPS comes from buffs compared to gear.

- Illidari: what is the problem here that jaeydn reported i'm not so sure
You have to deal with the possibilities of Flamestrike, Blizzard, and Consecrate. The aoes are rather strong, and it's difficult to path the pet in such a way that it's not going to run through one of those while dodging another. The best thing I've found to do is put the pet on stay in a remote corner to minimize the chance it runs away from a Consecrate into a worse AoE, and just Intercept it back to Gathios once the tank moves him out of the Consecrate.

- Illidan: p1 should be good (can't get parasytes right?). p2 is definitely harder to manage. p3 is as p1 but the flames, which i reckon it won't be able to get. p4 shows my lack of knowledge in this, having used just an imp in the past year. is the felguard threat separate or added to the warlock? actually he can't melee him, but i'd like to know how pet threat works anyway
Pets cannot get parasites. They are not targetted for flames, but can get flames from being too near someone else. In phase 2, it's difficult to allow it to attack, but it does not get hit by the fireballs Illidan throws and I have never seen it targetted for a Barrage. It does get hit by the demon phase fireballs that hit the whole raid though, so you have to be careful it's not taking splash damage. The Felguard's aggro is seperate from yours, which helps to make Demonology one of the lowest threat specs.

- Winterchill: i guess that it works alright here
Just have to pull it out of Death and Decay quickly.

- Anatheron: same as before
We position Anatheron facing the casters, so that he never swarms both casters and melee at the same time. I'll position the Felguard back with the melee and it rarely ever takes damage aside from Soul Link.

- Kaz'rogal: not so sure, i guess that with void star talisman etc he will resist quite some marks, but with 1 point in feed im not so sure it's easy to not let it go oom without extra lifetaps (lowering ur dps)
Felguards never get the mark, so you don't need to worry about this.

- Azgalor: supposedly quite good in here too. Extra avoidance against rain of fire is nice.
I put mine on stay and use it to help out people killing the Doomguards. It will die quickly if it's close to Azgalor.

- Archimonde: how does air burst work with it? Can it be directly targeted by it? Will it go in the air if someone in range is air bursted? If so, when it will die from the landing no soul charge will be placed on archimonde right? What about the aoe fear+doomfires? Avoidance works giving it a chance to resist the fear or not (i guess not)?
The pet cannot be targetted for Air Burst. It will take some damage from being close to someone else who is Air Bursted, but it cannot be thrown back. Pets do not give off Soul Charges. Doomfire is not an issue unless the pet gets feared into it because of the distance at which Doomfires spawn. If the pet gets feared, your best bet is just to use DS. The Felguard DS is actually a bit better than Succubus DS for this fight because of the amount of time you'll be able to run around and let the regen tick rather than having to Life Tap.
#176SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3jayowen
Originally Posted by Gumibear View Post
If you happen to have very high stamina, you can leave your Felguard sitting in the back and it will be ok. It needs to have a bit over 9k HP and 3/3 Demonic Resilience to be safe though.
I found for Najentus that after turning off Soul Link the Felguard stayed up fine.
#177SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3jayowen
Originally Posted by Jaeydn View Post
Overall unless it's one of the pet unfriendly fights you rarely have to worry at the FG. Turn on auto cleave and let him run wild. 2pc T5 takes care of him nicely(which I hope they add something like that set bonus to the demo tree) cause I really don't like being chained to those items to retain a spec, but as I am really liking the build I guess I have no choice. =)
I concur. I tried out Felguard and liked it, but I really don't like the fact that it's tied to a specific set bonus. If they could find a way to work it into the demo tree somewhere it would definitely make it a much more appealing spec.
#178SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Jaeydn
Originally Posted by jayowen View Post
I found for Najentus that after turning off Soul Link the Felguard stayed up fine.
Now this is going to sound like a horribly noobish question, but as I have not been a soul link build since like over a year until now, I have no clue how to turn it off lol. I used to be able to click it off myself like any other buff, but now I've been saccing the pet and resummoning it to not have one soul linked.
#179SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Auranaras
Unfortunately that is the only way.
#180SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3zarikdon
As a follow-up to the earlier discussion regarding the 4pc T5 bonus, has Blizzard commented at all whether it's a bug that it only affects base corruption damage right now, and not damage post +spell damage? I recently purchased the T5 helm for the 4pc bonus thinking that it would be a 50-ish DPS upgrade, but now it seems that the gloves off Attumen + Spellstrike Hood/Cowl of the Grand Engineer would be the better choice for a 0/21/40 build.
#181SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 frmorrison
4 T5 bonus isn't so great, and that is intended.

For destro, the bonus is mostly useless, and about a 20-30 dps increase for Affliction.
#182SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3semi
Originally Posted by zarikdon View Post
As a follow-up to the earlier discussion regarding the 4pc T5 bonus, has Blizzard commented at all whether it's a bug that it only affects base corruption damage right now, and not damage post +spell damage? I recently purchased the T5 helm for the 4pc bonus thinking that it would be a 50-ish DPS upgrade, but now it seems that the gloves off Attumen + Spellstrike Hood/Cowl of the Grand Engineer would be the better choice for a 0/21/40 build.
Gloves off Attumen are nice, but if you want an upgrade for 0/21/40 look into Doomwalkers gloves. No points spent in stam/int so you might not want to use it in stam fights, but if you're trying to go pure dps they're worth grabbing.

I'm in a similar situation but keeping t4 helm+shoulders because with the set piece it seems at least equal to most gear upgrades I have available, but maybe I'm just lying to myself so I don't have to spend hundreds of gold on primals or ore for the engineering/tailoring helms.
#183SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nas
Originally Posted by semi View Post
I'm in a similar situation but keeping t4 helm+shoulders because with the set piece it seems at least equal to most gear upgrades I have available, but maybe I'm just lying to myself so I don't have to spend hundreds of gold on primals or ore for the engineering/tailoring helms.
I am leaning towards you lying to yourself. =P

In all seriousness though, I have no idea what your gear is like as I don't have a link to your Armory, but the Spellstrike set have served me well so far. I have the T5 pieces, I just find Spellstrike to be superior (Especially the helm) to T5, especially since I need it to cap hit without resorting to re-geming.
#184SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3zarikdon
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
4 T5 bonus isn't so great, and that is intended.

For destro, the bonus is mostly useless, and about a 20-30 dps increase for Affliction.
Our of curiosity, how are you getting that estimate for the DPS increase? No matter how I calculate it, it still ends up being around 5 DPS for affliction, before ISB.

The base gain for a corruption tick is 15 (900 base damage, 6 ticks, 10%), and to get the most out of the bonus you assume that all 5 ticks are affected by the buff from shadow bolt.

(1.5*(1+1.1+...+1.1^4))(1.1) = 91.6 damage over 18 seconds, which is roughly 5 DPS.

A 0/21/40 build would gain more due to the succubus sacrifice adding a 1.15 multiplier instead of 1.1 from shadow mastery as well as the fact that a 2 second cast time on corruption allows all 6 ticks to benefit from the set bonus, though of course you could argue that you wouldn't be trying to use the T5 bonus in that situation anyway, since an untalented corruption isn't good in your spell cycle. Yet even for that build, the DPS increase is at best 7 or so.

I just don't see how you could possibly squeeze out anything close to 20 DPS from 4pc T5 using any build.
#185SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by zarikdon View Post
Our of curiosity, how are you getting that estimate for the DPS increase? No matter how I calculate it, it still ends up being around 5 DPS for affliction, before ISB.

The base gain for a corruption tick is 15 (900 base damage, 6 ticks, 10%), and to get the most out of the bonus you assume that all 5 ticks are affected by the buff from shadow bolt.

(1.5*(1+1.1+...+1.1^4))(1.1) = 91.6 damage over 18 seconds, which is roughly 5 DPS.

A 0/21/40 build would gain more due to the succubus sacrifice adding a 1.15 multiplier instead of 1.1 from shadow mastery as well as the fact that a 2 second cast time on corruption allows all 6 ticks to benefit from the set bonus, though of course you could argue that you wouldn't be trying to use the T5 bonus in that situation anyway, since an untalented corruption isn't good in your spell cycle. Yet even for that build, the DPS increase is at best 7 or so.

I just don't see how you could possibly squeeze out anything close to 20 DPS from 4pc T5 using any build.
Add CoS, Misery, Shadow Weaving, ISB. It still sucks, though.
#186SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Napoleond
Quick question, does Demonic Sac apply to your base Spell damage or to your Actual damage of the spell.

I.e. You have 1100 shadow damage, multiply that by 15% and thats what sac does.

OR:
Your shadowbolt hits for 3500, Multiply that by 15%.

My reason for this is that Shadow and Flame's tooltip is different then Demonic sac's, and was wondering if it was different.
#187SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3zelman
Originally Posted by Napoleond View Post
Quick question, does Demonic Sac apply to your base Spell damage or to your Actual damage of the spell.

I.e. You have 1100 shadow damage, multiply that by 15% and thats what sac does.

OR:
Your shadowbolt hits for 3500, Multiply that by 15%.

My reason for this is that Shadow and Flame's tooltip is different then Demonic sac's, and was wondering if it was different.
Shadow and Flame adds 20% more of your +spell to those 2 spells, Demonic Sacrifice takes your outgoing damage and adds a multiplier. (so the latter)
#188SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3galzohar
Yes shadow and flame is spcifically a coefficient change, meaning your spells get more out of spell damage. Instead of getting 3/3.5, you get 3/3.5+0.2. Demonic sac and other talents with such a description simply add a % to your final shadowbolt. How it stacks with other things that add +% damage is a different story though (I think it's talents and buffs add up, then the result is multiplied by the sum of debuffs on the target, aka base*(1+talent%+buff%)*(1+debuff%), but I'm very unsure about that).

Overall shadow and flame is like an increase in your spell damage, although in reality it's as effective as having (0.2+3/3.5)/(3/3.5)=1.2333 multiplier to your spell damage or 23.33% more spell damage when it comes to shadowbolt. then that spell damage adds up to the base shadowbolt damage (naked untalented shadowbolt) and then the result gets multiplied by all the multipliers.
#189SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Arelenda
How single target spells work:

Total damage = Base Damage + Spellpower * Spell Coefficient


Coefficient is generally casting time / 3.5.

- Coefficient is halved if it has a bonus effect like a life drain (death coil / siphon life / drain soul).
- Snares tend to have 95% of the original coefficient (frost bolt)
- Any spell below 1.5s casting time counts as 1.5. (Shadowburn, Death Coil)
- Dot coefficients are dot length / 15 instead, with damage divided equally per tic. Corruption, CoA and CoD are exceptions (0.94, 1.2 and 2, respectively, with emp corruption adding 0.12 per talent point)
- Cast time reducing talents don't count, it's original casting time. Frostbolt/Fireball are exceptions. But they're standard in 2.3.


Example: Shadow Bolt.

Base damage: 541-603 (according to wowwiki). For some reason my Base Shadow Bolt is listed in wow as 544-607, if anyone can enlighten me why, that'd be appreciated.

Coefficient: 3 / 3.5 (SB cast time is originally 3)

So a bolt would on average hit for: 572 + Spellpower * 0.86

Shadow and Flame adds to the Coefficient, so if you have it it's 572 + Spellpower * (0.86 + 0.2)


Generally, everything that adds to ALL Shadow damage (ISB, CoS, Misery, Shadow Weaving, Demonic Sacrifice) adds to the TOTAL damage, and all modifiers are indepently multiplied.

Example:
Corruption tics for 500.

Add ISB: 500 * 1,2
Add CoS: 500 * 1,2 * 1,1
Add Misery: 500 * 1,2 * 1,1 * 1,05
Add Demonic Sacrifice: 500 * 1,2 * 1,1 * 1,05 * 1,15
Add Shadow Weaving: 500 * 1,2 * 1,1 * 1,05 * 1,15 * 1,1


Notable exceptions to the "boost total damage":
- Amplify curse will only boost base damage
- T5 4p set bonus boost dots weirdly (it modifies the base damage of the dot, and stacks).
- Shadow Mastery doesn't boost CoD.

(updated to correct mistakes)

Warlock Aoe:
Rain of Fire: 8/7 of spellpower to total, divided per tic
Hellfire: 15/7 of spellpower to total, divided per tic
SoC Dot: 3/2 of spellpower (but blows up at fixed amount, which is not affected by power)
SoC Detonation: 1/6 of spellpower

Rain of Fire and Hellfire seem consistent since their contribution per second is 1/7.

Last edited by Arelenda : 10/28/07 at 6:44 AM.
#190SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3galzohar
Secondary effects afaik are 95% coefficient, however spells like life drain don't fall in this category - they fall in the category of "spells that also heal you" and therefore receieve 1/2 the bonus.
Also I think spells that are faster than 1.5s also count as 1.5s, not just instants (example paladin's hammer of wrath).

As for debuffs I'd verify first if they actually multiply like that rather than add up. It would actually make more sense if a targte with ISB, misery, shadow weaving and 13% CoS would have 20+5+10+13=48% increased damage or 1.48X, not 1.2*1.05*1.1*1.13=1.57X. Shouldn't be too hard to test on Dr. Boom with a couple friends though.
#191SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Bobkelso
speaking of Felguard DPS...

Wow Web Stats - 1914 DPS

It's really beneficial on Tidewalker, because while you are busy AOEing, he's hacking away at the boss still without having to "renew" him like a DoT.

I use Felguard spec for pretty much everything in SSC/TK now, and I'm never really beaten on the damage meters. (except fights where I have to do something specifically that lowers my DPS)
#192SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Secondary effects afaik are 95% coefficient, however spells like life drain don't fall in this category - they fall in the category of "spells that also heal you" and therefore receieve 1/2 the bonus.
Also I think spells that are faster than 1.5s also count as 1.5s, not just instants (example paladin's hammer of wrath).
Right on both counts. Correcting.


Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
As for debuffs I'd verify first if they actually multiply like that rather than add up. It would actually make more sense if a targte with ISB, misery, shadow weaving and 13% CoS would have 20+5+10+13=48% increased damage or 1.48X, not 1.2*1.05*1.1*1.13=1.57X. Shouldn't be too hard to test on Dr. Boom with a couple friends though.
I tested this when writing ShadowSeer. I'm 100% sure most multipliers .. well.. multiply. I didn't test with each and every combination, but all the ones I could stack multiplied.
#193SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Soul
CoD and Drain Soul have half the gain from spellpower that you would expect (CoD only gets a 200% bonus from damage, Drain Soul gets 7.5/3.5 instead of 15/3.5).

Drain Mana (along with mana burn) is completely unaffected by spellpower.

Finally, AoEs don't seem to exhibit any consistent behaviour with Spellpower. Here are the coefficients I've seen:

RoF: 8/7
Hellfire: 10/7
Blizzard: 8/7
Hurricane: 9/7
Arcane Explosion 1.5/7
Cone of Cold, BW, DB: 1.5/7 * 0.9
FN: Less than 5%.
Flamestrike DoT: 8/45
Flamestrike DD: 3/10.5
Consecration: 8/10.5

Obviously , there are no longer any standard rules for AoE coefficients. Total damage is generally capped at 10 times the average damage per AoE excluding crits, with the exception of the Flamestrike DoT, so at a certain number of mobs, the spell coefficient becomes moot except that you cap out sooner.
#194SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3galzohar
You're saying the "10 target cap" isn't based on the actual damage per 1 target but rather the "naked" damage against 1 target? Unless you tested it out I find it very wierd, although I didn't test anything about it myself.

Anyway the AOE spells do *seem* to follow certain rules, it's just that each spell has different attributes that make it follow different rules. For example (assuming your coefficients are corret):
RoF/blizzard - 1/3.5 per second like all spells, 1/2 for being AOE, and then X8 for being over 8 seconds.
IAE - like a 1.5s cast spell but 1/2 because it's aoe
And I suppose you could explain at least some of the rest if you only knew what factors apply there, although it is definitely possible some have an "irregular" coefficient (like CoD or drain soul have).

Anyway I remember reading somewhere AOE was 1/3 and not 1/2, but oh well...
#195SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tornblack
Does anyone have a model they like for calculating improved shadowbolt uptime that they like? I'm aware of shadowseer for measuring what is going on in the current raid, but i'm more interested in a theoretical model for comparing various raid makeups.

For example, consider a tank and spank encounter w/ 3 shadowpriests and 2 warlocks, what is the impact on overall dps for:

2 0/21/40 locks spamming shadowbolt nonstop

vs

1 0/21/40 lock sbolt spamming and one 42/0/17 + 2 refreshing dots and spamming shadow bolt in between.

Obviously I could just measure the same fight over and over again with both makeups using wws and shadowseer, but duplicating otherwise identical raid conditions over and over again is nigh impossible.
#196SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Katinsha
Affliction and gear choices

*is proud of the fellow Argent Dawnian warlock*

Minor thingies:

It is Curse of Shadow and Curse of the Elements.

Also, being an Affliction warlock myself, I find the bit about hit rating in the corresponding section maybe a bit too short. You could perhaps extend it a bit with discussing when to choose hit and when straight damage? Also please discuss the alternatives for Suppression, once you have more high-end gear, but still want to be Affliction.

Popular idea here is that you are Affliction until you get better gear from Tier 6 instances. As if it is a spec you can and will "outgrow". This is not true for some players (myself included), since the utility and self-sufficiency of Affliction retain their strength even when you personally do not scale as well as other specs with the abundant hit/crit/haste gear. Personal DPS and higher ISB contribution are not always decisive factors in some people's choices. It can be that you just find it more FUN to not spam one spell all the time. Or they want to be able to DPS multiple targets efficiently. It can also just be the fact every raid with a lot of shadow/arcane casters loves one Affliction lock for Malediction.

Players that like the spec and wish to keep it even when raiding tier 6 instances might want to know how the different stats should be valued with their spec in mind even if it is not optimal (it is often "nuke gear") but still (perhaps) the best they can get.

The way you put it (hit>spell dam>rest) is as I said, in my opinion, too short and might give the wrong idea to Affliction locks planning their gear progression.

Nevertheless, great effort and kudo's. And that mod is awesome, although I won't use it personally since the info it gives will probably be: get more spell damage! D'oh! *grins*
#197SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by tornblack View Post
Does anyone have a model they like for calculating improved shadowbolt uptime that they like? I'm aware of shadowseer for measuring what is going on in the current raid, but i'm more interested in a theoretical model for comparing various raid makeups.
Considering the game mechanics are nowhere near what you'd expect them to be, theorethical models of ISB don't seem very useful.

ShadowSeer measures and does educated guesses, it's nowhere near reliable for data extensive data mining. For example: Spells cast on a mob when ISB is up will hit for 20% more damage, regardless of what happens during flight time. ShadowSeer does not model this, for example. It only counts until the debuff is removed, it doesn't take into account what spells are flying at that point.
#198SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3galzohar
Also remember that the only spec that doesn't lose DPS by giving an imp to the MT is an affliction spec...

Regarding hit for affliction:
By putting some reasonable stats in lieuler's spreadsheet it gives me that 1 hit rating is almost as good as 1 spell damage, while we know on itemization 4-5 damage = 4 hit rating, which makes hit rating actually not all that great. Considering this is a best case scenario for hit rating (minimum hit rating to cap DoT hit and 100% of DPS time being on a "boss"), hit rating for affliction actually results in *less* of a DPS increase per use of itemization point than spell damage, and thus would socket all red sockets with 9 damage gems, and only put 5 damage 4 hit gems in yellow sockets on items with a any useful socket bonus (crit is still inferior to both).
Remember that if you have higher than minimum hit for affliction spells and/or don't DPS bosses 100% of the time (taking bosses with adds into account), hit gets even worse for affliction.
Regarding suppression, the gains from dropping points there are extremely minimal, as to reach nightfall and emp corruption you need 15 in the lower tier talents, 5 of which going into corruption, 2 in lifetap, but the other 8 can only go in suppression, amplify curse, soul siphon, fel concetration, imp CoA, imp CoW or Improved drain soul. Since the only talents of those that increase DPS (amp curse, suppression and soul siphon) can already be taken with those 8 points, I don't see a reason to get any hit beyond the minimum 6% if you can help it, as your DPS would not increase through talent changes. To put any extra points in demonology you will have to take points out of destruction or higher-tier affliction talents, which doesn't change when you aquire more hit gear.
#199SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Katinsha View Post
*is proud of the fellow Argent Dawnian warlock*

Minor thingies:

It is Curse of Shadow and Curse of the Elements.
fixed, thanks.


Also, being an Affliction warlock myself, I find the bit about hit rating in the corresponding section maybe a bit too short. You could perhaps extend it a bit with discussing when to choose hit and when straight damage? Also please discuss the alternatives for Suppression, once you have more high-end gear, but still want to be Affliction.
The compendium is a joint effort built by combining and pruning debates and discussions in this thread and the warlock thread. If you feel that an area is underrepresented, feel free to add your own extension here and I'll merge it.

The example builds are guidelines, to be used as illustration, really. I've tried to highlight the key talents, and left the non-vital choices out. One reason for that was to avoid debate about whether unimportant skill A was better than unimportant skill B. But also because plenty of warlock builds are viable and require a lot of wiggle room.


Popular idea here is that you are Affliction until you get better gear from Tier 6 instances. As if it is a spec you can and will "outgrow". This is not true for some players (myself included), since the utility and self-sufficiency of Affliction retain their strength even when you personally do not scale as well as other specs with the abundant hit/crit/haste gear. Personal DPS and higher ISB contribution are not always decisive factors in some people's choices. It can be that you just find it more FUN to not spam one spell all the time. Or they want to be able to DPS multiple targets efficiently. It can also just be the fact every raid with a lot of shadow/arcane casters loves one Affliction lock for Malediction.
My personal opinion is that raids are optimal with one affliction warlock, and others in demo/destro. I also think that allowing people to spec according to the playstyle they like makes your raiders happiest, and one could argue that that is most important in a game.

But the scope of the compendium is to detail builds that work best. Playstyle is mentioned, but is not considered vital.


Players that like the spec and wish to keep it even when raiding tier 6 instances might want to know how the different stats should be valued with their spec in mind even if it is not optimal (it is often "nuke gear") but still (perhaps) the best they can get.

The way you put it (hit>spell dam>rest) is as I said, in my opinion, too short and might give the wrong idea to Affliction locks planning their gear progression.
Well, it gives a rough outline, at the end there is a detailed section below explaining why the outline is rough, and there's links to tools to determine how stats work for you. I'll add to the guide that it is, in fact, a rough sketch.

Last edited by Arelenda : 10/28/07 at 12:24 PM.
#200SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Soul
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
You're saying the "10 target cap" isn't based on the actual damage per 1 target but rather the "naked" damage against 1 target? Unless you tested it out I find it very wierd, although I didn't test anything about it myself.
Yes, that is what I'm saying. It's one of the more screwed up things about AoE capping... only the BASE damage of the AoE counts (at least, that's the way it was when it was introduced).

Anyway the AOE spells do *seem* to follow certain rules, it's just that each spell has different attributes that make it follow different rules. For example (assuming your coefficients are corret):
RoF/blizzard - 1/3.5 per second like all spells, 1/2 for being AOE, and then X8 for being over 8 seconds.
IAE - like a 1.5s cast spell but 1/2 because it's aoe.

And I suppose you could explain at least some of the rest if you only knew what factors apply there, although it is definitely possible some have an "irregular" coefficient (like CoD or drain soul have).
Well, that's the point... with so many varying coefficients and custom rules, you can't even guess at the spell coefficient until you test it out and post it a little table. For example, given what I posted above, what's the coefficient for SoC or Shadowfury?

Anyway I remember reading somewhere AOE was 1/3 and not 1/2, but oh well...
It used to be that all AoEs followed the rule of (cast time)/3.5 * 1/3 with the 90% modifier being applied to BW, CoC and Hurricane for their 50% secondary effects and cast time being capped out at 3.5 (which was why Hellfire and RoF used to scale so horribly). When Naxx was introduced, spells were allowed to have cast time modifiers greater than 3.5. After the mass AoE/power leveling that happened during the Scourge invasion, some of the AoE spells got capped and some of them got the AoE modifiers raised. But they weren't consistent, since FS got capped and did not get the coefficient raised, while Blizzard got the coefficient raised, and was not capped until 2.2.
#201SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3PSGarak
At 2.0 it was a horribly inconsistent mess, but 2.2 seems to have gone through and fixed a lot of the AoEs that got left behind. There might be a consistent rule now, and 50% penalty + 10-cap sounds like it is true for standard AoEs with no secondary effects. Consecration and Hellfire seem to have been hit with a 1/3 penalty rather than 1/2... and they're both PBAoE DoTs? I dunno. How recent are all those coefficient data?
#202SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
The aoe coefficients listed in my post were double checked today. After some testing with multiple gear sets, I was at most 2 points off.
#203SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Soul
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
At 2.0 it was a horribly inconsistent mess, but 2.2 seems to have gone through and fixed a lot of the AoEs that got left behind. There might be a consistent rule now, and 50% penalty + 10-cap sounds like it is true for standard AoEs with no secondary effects. Consecration and Hellfire seem to have been hit with a 1/3 penalty rather than 1/2... and they're both PBAoE DoTs? I dunno. How recent are all those coefficient data?
I checked Hellfire, RoF, Bliz, FS DoT, CoC, and AE just before I made my post. The druids over on the WoW forums checked Hurricane about a month ago... I multiplied their results by seven and found that the multiplier was really 9/7... 90% of cast time divided by seven due to the attack speed penalty. Consecration is a pretty well-known number by all the prot pallies on the board. Consecration actually has a relatively high (and unusual) modifier when you consider that it's a AoE DoT

Just rechecked Hellfire again with my level 65 warlock. Maybe the rules change at level 68, but at 65, there's no way that Hellfire gets a 15/7 multiplier. With 484 bonus damage, I was getting ticks of 261. The tooltip says 215. A difference of 46 per tick, so spellpower adds 46 * 15 = 690 damage to the spell. Multiplier is thus ~690/484 = 1.42. Multiply that by 7 and you get 10 (well, 9.98), not 15.
#204SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3semi
Originally Posted by Nas View Post
I am leaning towards you lying to yourself. =P

In all seriousness though, I have no idea what your gear is like as I don't have a link to your Armory, but the Spellstrike set have served me well so far. I have the T5 pieces, I just find Spellstrike to be superior (Especially the helm) to T5, especially since I need it to cap hit without resorting to re-geming.
Sorry about the armory link, forgot to update when xferring. Should work now, if not: The World of Warcraft Armory

Yeah..after looking at the gear a little more I think you're right, although its still hard to say [Spellstrike Helm] vs [Destruction Holo-gogs]
I'm guessing spellstrike would be better if i went for the legs as well (instead of the trial fire trousers with 3 +9s), but thats a huge investment in mats for gear that presumably should get replaced anyways.
Also destruction hologogs means meta gem which would mean I could try out that new crit meta.
#205SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krazen
What is a good baseline DPS for warlocks looking to join a tier 5 guild?

I just went on my first raid on my character. As I've posted on another thread, I'm looking to get back into raiding, and the general consensus there seems to be to skip the Karazhan stage.

I don't have tailored epics or anything quite yet, so this is still a work in progress, but I managed 630 dps on my first Maulgar kill.

I'll try to update this post with a WWS, but I think I botched the combatlog feature, so that will have to wait.

The World of Warcraft Armory

Here is my armory, its obviously a work in progress.


One thing I did have trouble with is maintaining dot rotations on 2 mobs. On a single target I will curse of shadows, and I'll try to place curse of doom on the 2nd mob, and maybe siphon. But I found that if I try to maintain UA/Corr/Immo on the 2nd mob, I lose some uptime on the first.
#206SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Soul View Post
I checked Hellfire, RoF, Bliz, FS DoT, CoC, and AE just before I made my post. The druids over on the WoW forums checked Hurricane about a month ago... I multiplied their results by seven and found that the multiplier was really 9/7... 90% of cast time divided by seven due to the attack speed penalty. Consecration is a pretty well-known number by all the prot pallies on the board. Consecration actually has a relatively high (and unusual) modifier when you consider that it's a AoE DoT

Just rechecked Hellfire again with my level 65 warlock. Maybe the rules change at level 68, but at 65, there's no way that Hellfire gets a 15/7 multiplier. With 484 bonus damage, I was getting ticks of 261. The tooltip says 215. A difference of 46 per tick, so spellpower adds 46 * 15 = 690 damage to the spell. Multiplier is thus ~690/484 = 1.42. Multiply that by 7 and you get 10 (well, 9.98), not 15.
Do you have Emberstorm?

According to wowwiki base damage is 208, not 216. So that suggest you have 4 points in it. Or wowwiki is outdated. Either way, our data is inconsistent. I'll do some research into this. My tooltip info has been off, as well. I'm not sure what's causing that.

Update: Wowwiki's data is correct. 208 is the base damage (check by walking to IF with a level 1 Warlock)

Update: Shadow Bolt base damage is 541-603. My tooltip says 543-607. I removed all my gear, and have a screenshot of me hitting Boom (no buffs, no gear) for 605. I have no clue why this is.

Last edited by Arelenda : 10/29/07 at 1:16 AM.
#207SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
What is a good baseline DPS for warlocks looking to join a tier 5 guild?

I just went on my first raid on my character. As I've posted on another thread, I'm looking to get back into raiding, and the general consensus there seems to be to skip the Karazhan stage.

I don't have tailored epics or anything quite yet, so this is still a work in progress, but I managed 630 dps on my first Maulgar kill.

I'll try to update this post with a WWS, but I think I botched the combatlog feature, so that will have to wait.

The World of Warcraft Armory

Here is my armory, its obviously a work in progress.


One thing I did have trouble with is maintaining dot rotations on 2 mobs. On a single target I will curse of shadows, and I'll try to place curse of doom on the 2nd mob, and maybe siphon. But I found that if I try to maintain UA/Corr/Immo on the 2nd mob, I lose some uptime on the first.
Your gear is horribly subpar for end game raiding. I'm not sure what a tier 5 guild is, if it means "they have some tier 5" that just means they killed Void Reaver which means nothing, really. If it means "they all are decked out in t5" then you're not going to fit in. I recommend picking up tailoring for FSW and Spellstrike or farming Karazhan. Or both.

As for rotations, on trash I'd start with UA on the main target then spam Agony and Corruption on tanked targets. On boss fights with adds where you can dot freely, just use all your dots on all suitable targets. As long as a dot runs its full duration (not pushed off, target won't die, you don't refresh it too soon) they are highest damage-per-casting-time (dpcs) for an affliction warlock. Refresh the best ones first when they run out, use remaining time to apply the inferior dots, and if everything is dotted nicely, use Shadow Bolts.

Of course, if success hinges on one target dying really fast, you might want to just dot+SB a single one. But in general, the strategy above will result in highest dps.

ShadowSeer will tell you whether you're losing tics on any dot, and how much dpcs each one is, if you're not clear on that front.
#208SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nas
Originally Posted by semi View Post
Sorry about the armory link, forgot to update when xferring. Should work now, if not: The World of Warcraft Armory

Yeah..after looking at the gear a little more I think you're right, although its still hard to say [Spellstrike Helm] vs [Destruction Holo-gogs]
I'm guessing spellstrike would be better if i went for the legs as well (instead of the trial fire trousers with 3 +9s), but thats a huge investment in mats for gear that presumably should get replaced anyways.
Also destruction hologogs means meta gem which would mean I could try out that new crit meta.
That's true, spellstrike will eventually be replaced. I only recently replaced my Spellstrike leggings, and wouldn't replace the helm till T6. As for the goggles, they definitely are quite nice - however, for destruction before the hit cap I'd still lean towards spellstrike hood being better individually. Trying the new crit meta would be nice though!

All in all I found investing into Spellstrike well worth while.
#209SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Soul
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Do you have Emberstorm?

According to wowwiki base damage is 208, not 216. So that suggest you have 4 points in it. Or wowwiki is outdated. Either way, our data is inconsistent. I'll do some research into this. My tooltip info has been off, as well. I'm not sure what's causing that.

Update: Wowwiki's data is correct. 208 is the base damage (check by walking to IF with a level 1 Warlock)

Update: Shadow Bolt base damage is 541-603. My tooltip says 543-607. I removed all my gear, and have a screenshot of me hitting Boom (no buffs, no gear) for 605. I have no clue why this is.
208 is the damage at level 54 when you buy the spell, but the spell's base dps slowly goes up as you level, like any other spell. Anyway, my warlock is a UA warlock with 13 points in Demo (she does a lot of grinding and testing), and so has no modifiers to any Destro spells.

As for the discrepancy, I bet it's a bug. Do a test on your 70 warlock with Rank 3 Hellfire and find out what the coefficient is (it should still get the full coefficient). I bet you our results will match then and we'll have a bug report to submit to Blizzard...
#210SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Soul View Post
208 is the damage at level 54 when you buy the spell, but the spell's base dps slowly goes up as you level, like any other spell.
That is the first time I've ever heard about that. Base damage being increased per level, for all spells?

My Corruption was learned at 65. Yet it still has 900 base damage, which is the amount it does when first learned. Hellfire was learned at 68, base damage 306. Mine is listed as 312-313 which is exactly what it should be if you calculate my one point in Emberstorm. However, rank 3 of Hellfire and my Shadowbolts are off.

It's definitely not the case for ALL spells, but it looks like Shadow Bolt did get an increase. Can anyone enlighten me?




Anyway, my warlock is a UA warlock with 13 points in Demo (she does a lot of grinding and testing), and so has no modifiers to any Destro spells.

As for the discrepancy, I bet it's a bug. Do a test on your 70 warlock with Rank 3 Hellfire and find out what the coefficient is (it should still get the full coefficient). I bet you our results will match then and we'll have a bug report to submit to Blizzard...
Data from hellfire experimenting:

I'm 70. I have one point in emberstorm (2% bonus damage)

with 982 firepower:

Hellfire rank 4 - 457 damage per tic
Hellfire rank 3 - 362.5 damage per tic

with 467 firepower

Hellfire rank 4 - 382 damage per tic
Hellfire rank 3 - 287 damage per tic


On the tooltips:
Rank 4: 313-314 dps (learned at 68: base 306)
Rank 3: 219-220 dps (learned at 54: base 208)


--

analysis for rank 4 at 70 for me:
damage per tic = 457
damage per tic without spellpower = 313.5 (between 313 and 314)

damage per tic without emberstorm = 457/1.02 = 448.04
damage per tic without emberstorm without spellpower = 313.5 / 1.02 = 307.35

bonus from spellpower per tic = 448.04 - 307.35 = 140.7
my spellpower: 982

so spell coefficient = 140.7/982 is about 1/7.

So my Hellfire gets 1/7th of your spelldamage per tic, 15/7 on the whole.

---

analysis for both ranks and both spellpowers gives me the same result: 1/7 of spellpower per tic.
#211SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Soul
OK, I figured out what my mistake was. I foolishly figured that the the damage you did would equal the damage inflicted on yourself. Turns out that is not the case, Hellfire has a 15/7 coefficient when damaging mobs, but a 10/7 coefficient for self-inflicted damage.

Mea culpa.

As for spells increasing with level, it's just there for most spells. The only way to accurately see the base power of a spell is to look at the tooltip on a character with no talents spent. This is because Blizzard only updates some of the tooltips to reflect the effect that talents have on base damage (for example, Drain Life and Life Tap tooltips are not affected by talents). Anyway, given that there are now new ranks of most abilities obtained within two levels of 70, it doesn't make a big difference.
#212SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3garegga
ive been reading these forums for a while, trying to raise my game by researching what the clever people do etc..

however, i feel the need to actually post, as i seem to have trapped myself into a cycle of inefficiency which is almost worse than being mocked as the warlock who isnt at the top of DPS meters...

firstly, if this isnt appropriate, just delete, but i did see other help type posts in here..

ok, now ive been a lock and nothing else for a few years now, and things really have changed since the MC days..

i understand that i need to cap the To Hit which i have been trying to do with gems and the proper enches.

now, i seem to be underpowered in comparison to other locks who have less gear than i do, which is really confusing.

my cycle in raids is (Curse)UA,Corr,SL,SB,DP,SB,SB,SB,DP (reapply)

or close to that effect. sometimes throwing in Immo or CoD as and when situ calls for them.

that is on single target as ive been told off for DoT spamming even tanked targets for aggro purposes.

obviously on trash i wont be that effective, but i see people with higher output who shouldnt be out doing me..

The World of Warcraft Armory

is it an inefficiency in my set up? - is it on trash i should be dong better? is my cycle not correct?

i put a lot of effort into being a serious player who can be relied upon to play well, but i seem to not be getting quite what i want out of this setup.

many thanks for any help, cheers.
#213SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 tdurden
Does someone have a good reasoning/math model about the Shadow Embrace talent?

I'm talking about it's main function, not as an added affliction debuff obviously.

Everything deeper than "it's all wasted with overhealing" would be nice
#214SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Vazu
Originally Posted by garegga View Post
ive been reading these forums for a while, trying to raise my game by researching what the clever people do etc..

however, i feel the need to actually post, as i seem to have trapped myself into a cycle of inefficiency which is almost worse than being mocked as the warlock who isnt at the top of DPS meters...

firstly, if this isnt appropriate, just delete, but i did see other help type posts in here..

ok, now ive been a lock and nothing else for a few years now, and things really have changed since the MC days..

i understand that i need to cap the To Hit which i have been trying to do with gems and the proper enches.

now, i seem to be underpowered in comparison to other locks who have less gear than i do, which is really confusing.

my cycle in raids is (Curse)UA,Corr,SL,SB,DP,SB,SB,SB,DP (reapply)

or close to that effect. sometimes throwing in Immo or CoD as and when situ calls for them.

that is on single target as ive been told off for DoT spamming even tanked targets for aggro purposes.

obviously on trash i wont be that effective, but i see people with higher output who shouldnt be out doing me..

The World of Warcraft Armory

is it an inefficiency in my set up? - is it on trash i should be dong better? is my cycle not correct?

i put a lot of effort into being a serious player who can be relied upon to play well, but i seem to not be getting quite what i want out of this setup.

many thanks for any help, cheers.
Wow.

Paragraph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
#215SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by garegga View Post
Sometimes throwing in Immo or CoD as and when situ calls for them.

that is on single target as ive been told off for DoT spamming even tanked targets for aggro purposes.

obviously on trash i wont be that effective, but i see people with higher output who shouldnt be out doing me..

The World of Warcraft Armory

is it an inefficiency in my set up? - is it on trash i should be dong better? is my cycle not correct?

i put a lot of effort into being a serious player who can be relied upon to play well, but i seem to not be getting quite what i want out of this setup.

many thanks for any help, cheers.
Some tips:
- It looks like you have a LOT of +hit. 5 points in suppression, and then some more on your gear. A lot of that is wasted.

- Immolate is probably worth it for you. Use ShadowSeer to find out, or Leulier's spreadsheet.

- Use dots on multiple mobs whenever you can. If someone is tanking them (and not tanking anything else) they ought to be able to keep up with the threat easily.

- Make sure your dots are up as much as possible (without refreshing stuff that's not run its course yet). Make sure to have an addon that tracks it. Link a WWS if possible, that'll give us some info to work with.
#216SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3garegga
thank you arelenda,

the reason i am stacking Hit, is i have read that i must hit the 202 cap in order to ensure my spells stick.. now to be fair, i didnt read anything about the 202 in conjunction with suppression but as an affli lock, having sup is almost a given, surely.

in kara, i did notice the amount of resists i was getting before i focussed on Hit, and now with the amount i have got (which is considerably less than 202) i get few resists. So, i should stop stacking and focus on +DMG purely on the other slots?

In regards to the cycle - once i dot up the main target, dotting offtanked targets takes up the time i would have spent SBing the main target so that by the time reapply comes around i probly would only have time for 1 SB. Then of course the 2nd offtanked target needs reapplying as well.

is that how its done? it seems awkward, however i understand raiding isnt meant to be easy, i just like to know if im doing things in the correct way.
#217SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Heathcliff
Originally Posted by garegga View Post
thank you arelenda,

the reason i am stacking Hit, is i have read that i must hit the 202 cap in order to ensure my spells stick.. now to be fair, i didnt read anything about the 202 in conjunction with suppression but as an affli lock, having sup is almost a given, surely.

in kara, i did notice the amount of resists i was getting before i focussed on Hit, and now with the amount i have got (which is considerably less than 202) i get few resists. So, i should stop stacking and focus on +DMG purely on the other slots?

In regards to the cycle - once i dot up the main target, dotting offtanked targets takes up the time i would have spent SBing the main target so that by the time reapply comes around i probly would only have time for 1 SB. Then of course the 2nd offtanked target needs reapplying as well.

is that how its done? it seems awkward, however i understand raiding isnt meant to be easy, i just like to know if im doing things in the correct way.
I would move 2 points of supporession into 2 points of improved life tap.

You wouldn't give up 30 spell damage for 5 spell hit, would you? Naturally if you had a piece with 25 spell crit, you wouldn't give that up for a piece with 3 more spell damage, right? Every stat has relative values. The spreadsheet at <http://www.leulier.com/> will give you a good starting point for figuring out what these are for your build. For affliction, 1 point of spell damage is going to be worth about 0.7 point of spell hit. Had you not had suppression to max out dots, this would be about 1.2.

In regards to your DOT cycles on two targets... that's okay that you only have time for 1 SB. Think of SBs as fillers in between refreshing dots. You're going to do more DPS and more DPM by applying dots. However, if you have two targets, and your raid leader wants one dead ASAP, ignore the other one and SB the first. You might do 160% your normal damage by splitting your DPS, but your tanks are taking 200% the damage. Minimizing raid wipes always comes before maximizing personal DPS.
#218SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Trickykid
For maximizing damage, you should only cast SB if you can't cast any other spell that by the end of its duration has higher damage-per-cast-time than SB. Only Life tap when you would SB otherwise. In fact, if you have so many targets that you're losing uptime on the first mob, then you can drop a lower DPCT dot. If you have enough targets that you could keep busy casting JUST your highest DPCT dot, your DPS should be killer.

You don't need points in suppression if your gear has enough hit on it. Look at the spreadsheet with your gear, but if I recall correctly stacking pure shadow damage has pretty nasty returns.

Last edited by Trickykid : 10/29/07 at 3:00 PM.
#219SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arveene
Originally Posted by garegga View Post
thank you arelenda,

the reason i am stacking Hit, is i have read that i must hit the 202 cap in order to ensure my spells stick.. now to be fair, i didnt read anything about the 202 in conjunction with suppression but as an affli lock, having sup is almost a given, surely.

in kara, i did notice the amount of resists i was getting before i focussed on Hit, and now with the amount i have got (which is considerably less than 202) i get few resists. So, i should stop stacking and focus on +DMG purely on the other slots?

In regards to the cycle - once i dot up the main target, dotting offtanked targets takes up the time i would have spent SBing the main target so that by the time reapply comes around i probly would only have time for 1 SB. Then of course the 2nd offtanked target needs reapplying as well.

is that how its done? it seems awkward, however i understand raiding isnt meant to be easy, i just like to know if im doing things in the correct way.
As an affliction warlock your DoTs should be your highest DpCT. On trash (assuming you don't have to burn down the current target as fast as possible) you should put up DoTs on the main target and then start DoTing up other mobs that are being tanked as well. This will give you the most damage. Even with suppression, you'll eventually want to get more hit from your gear to drop it. The biggest piece advise I (and most others so far) can give you is to put in your stats into leulier's spreadsheet and find your relative values to compare different gear / gem choices.

Edit: I would also work on that grammar thing before you receive another infraction for it =(
#220SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
garegga
Ok, thanks all i got really good advice there. I have Shadowseer now and will be doing an upper Kara run shortly. Hopefully ill be able to put it all into practice with good results and ill post the results.

Thanks again it was highly appreciated

edit: in the raid last night i came 2nd or 1st depending on whether you include a couple of goes on illhoof after prince.. It seems Immo wasnt really doing much, so i dropped using it and used SB instead. Thank you again

Last edited by garegga : 10/30/07 at 4:14 AM.
#221SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Pentamorfi
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
That is the first time I've ever heard about that. Base damage being increased per level, for all spells?

My Corruption was learned at 65. Yet it still has 900 base damage, which is the amount it does when first learned. Hellfire was learned at 68, base damage 306. Mine is listed as 312-313 which is exactly what it should be if you calculate my one point in Emberstorm. However, rank 3 of Hellfire and my Shadowbolts are off.

It's definitely not the case for ALL spells, but it looks like Shadow Bolt did get an increase. Can anyone enlighten me?





Recently I started levelling a(nother) warlock and noticed that the damage I was doing would go up slightly with every level (same rank of spells, of course). Something like 1 more damage per tick, slightly more damage with shadowbolt etc. Now I didn't keep any data of this, nor am I any good with math, so this is mostly anecdotal evidence. But it should be easily reproduced and tested by someone who's good with this stuff.
#222SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Lanik
Another spec

I've tinkered a bit with another spec, which - at least for me - has proven to be quite useful in a raiding enviroment. The link and details are below.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This is a hybrid build that's crossed my mind while I was playing a SM/Ruin build and it seemed like an improvement, since for higher levels of spelldmg, the heavy-SB reliant dps increases more then just 5%, since SM's 10% dmg is added to initial shadowbolt dmg, while the succ DS debuff adds 15% after spelldmg coefficient calculations (final dmg). I decided to give it a try, since our RL allowed it, and while I can't say I've always been top dps, most of the times when I was free to do a dmg curse I ended up quite high on the dmg meters (being slightly undergeared in comparison to the others in my raid).
The utility of such a build is that it has both Demonic Sacrifice and Ruin, and outputs high-ish shadowbolts (not as high as 0/21/40 or 0/40/21, but still pretty good), as well as instant corruption, improved life tap and the occasional Nightfall proc.

I'd also like to add that I haven't done the maths to verify this against a SM/Ruin spec, but from the trade-offs (losing Blood Pact, Siphon Life, Contagion, Dark Pact -possibly biggest downside of all 3-, while gaining Demonic Aegis, Fel Stamina and Intellect, Demonic Embrace and ofc extra shadow damage from Demonic Sacrifice) it seems worth it in terms of personal dps. This is not a must-have build, but it's an option for those who like high SBs (and improved ISB uptime), as well as instant Corruption and improved CoA.
#223SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Palahniuk
Originally Posted by Lanik View Post
I've tinkered a bit with another spec, which - at least for me - has proven to be quite useful in a raiding enviroment. The link and details are below.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
What I fail to see is how such a build would be an improvement over 0/21/40. I should have to think that the gains in crit from backlash, as well as the 20% extra spell damage applied to your shadow bolts from shadow & flame, would vastly outweigh any potential dps gains from nightfall and instant corruption. Recall that nightfall merely reduces the cast time of a shadow bolt from 2.5 talented to 1.5 seconds to account for the GCD. While I do feel that nightfall is surely a must-have for any affliction-based build, I don't think it's enough to take in lieu of the deeper destro talents.



As far as non-cookie cutter hybrid builds go, I've given some thought to pursuing a 30/21/10 build. I ran a Leulier on it with my current gear setup, and unless I'm mistaken its damage output is nearly identical to the current 0/21/40 build I run. As far as possible pros and cons of such a build...

Advantages:
- Imp LT and SL allow me the ability to rely significantly less on healers to maintain my damage output.
- The mobility afforded by instant corr, SL, and nightfall is invaluable in later content.
- I still get to take advantage of the half-cast meta.
- I get to take advantage of the 4pc T5 set bonus, which is completely inconceivable with 0/21/40. Alternatively, 2pc T6 would do nicely with this build as well.
- 35% bonus shadow damage ensures that the build would scale VERY well with gear.

Disadvantages:
- Debuff slots, debuff slots, debuff slots.
- Lacks the raid utility afforded by SE, Malediction, or the ability to keep ISB up as much as possible afforded by a heavy destro build.

Possible variants/restrictions:
- It's very possible to take 4/5 SE with this build if your guild doesn't have a SE lock already. My current one does.
- Requires that one be hit-capped or nearly hit-capped from gear (but I think that any serious end-game lock should be hit-capped anyway, personally).

Has anyone had any practical experience with BT/Hyjal raiding with such a build, or a variation thereof? Perhaps it's a ridiculous idea, but I'd be curious to hear others' thoughts on it.
#224SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Palahniuk View Post
As far as non-cookie cutter hybrid builds go, I've given some thought to pursuing a 30/21/10 build.
This build was already analysed and beaten into the ground, on multiple occasions.

http://elitistjerks.com/506250-post2109.html is one.


In short, you gain imp LT, a better Corruption, and Siphon Life. You lose 8% crit on Shadowbolt, and your Shadowbolts will hit for less than 0/21/40. Given that this spec relies on Shadow Bolt more than anything for its dps output, the results are obvious. Your spell cycle would be Corruption every 18 seconds, Siphon Life every 30 seconds, and every other spell would be Shadow Bolt.

If your healers are unable to compensate for the occasional lifetap a Destruction Warlock needs, then I suggest ditching the 30/21/10 Warlock and getting a healer instead.
#225SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 Eph
Originally Posted by Palahniuk View Post
but I'd be curious to hear others' thoughts on it.

Just a few pages back. Start on post #78.
#226SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Palahniuk
I apologize for not reading everything more thoroughly and duplicate posting. I'm still confused why Leulier says that the two builds return roughly equivalent dps (mine was <5 dps difference between that build and 0/21/40)... less time spent life-tapping over the course of a ten minute fight?? I assume I must be overlooking something.

Thank you for your feedback, regardless.
#227SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Palahniuk View Post
I apologize for not reading everything more thoroughly and duplicate posting. I'm still confused why Leulier says that the two builds return roughly equivalent dps (mine was <5 dps difference between that build and 0/21/40)... less time spent life-tapping over the course of a ten minute fight?? I assume I must be overlooking something.

Thank you for your feedback, regardless.
It's been noted before. I'm not sure why that is. I'm guessing Leulier underestimates ISB (which is downright impossible to model in a spreadsheet).

Improved Life Tap is pretty nice in theory.

To give you an idea:

Destruction warlocks require 400 mana for a Shadowbolt, which they cast approximately every 2.5 seconds, so they use 1600 every 10s. After a minute (9600 mana), mana pool is empty, so further bolts need to be compensated with Life Tap per 4 bolts. That's without BOW or pots.

An estimate of 5 LTs per minute after the first is the very worst case scenario, I'd say. So in a 10 minute fight, it's 9x5=45, which would be reduced to 38ish with Imp LT, so you'd gain 10seconds of casting time in a ten minute fight (600s), under optimal conditions. That's the equivalent of 1.66% haste, roughly, or 25 haste rating. And it makes you require less healing.

Certainly a nice talent, but in no way should you go out of your way to pick it up.

Last edited by Arelenda : 10/30/07 at 12:43 PM.
#228SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3deadaxe
I'm sorry if this question has been discussed before in this thread. Basically what I want to know is what is the general take on adding immolate into the sb spam for your standard 0/21/40 build. From what I can see immolate does more dps than shadowbolt, but from what I've gathered from countless top end guild warlocks, most of em don't do immolate at all.

Their explanation being to keep more ISB's up and at the same time "its more dps". This is what boogles me. So I'd like to hear more opinions on whether to use immo or not.

Survivability/self sustainability aside this is what im looking at:

With immo: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
W/o immo: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
#229SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rochan
You don't want immolate because:
-It will result in less ISB uptime (big raid dps loss)
-Likely more user error (a second button to press :P, and have to pay attention to Dot-timers)
-Have to pick up talents, which could be used on non-useless things (Nether Prot/Soul Leech)
-Takes a debuff slot
-Doesn't benefit from spell haste
-At high gear levels, SB is more Dmg/Casttime anyways

Only time i'll use immolate is on movement bosses; something like supremus if hes about to go OOR, or Shahraz if shes vuln. to fire and I'm not lazy/feel like pressing another button.
#230SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
You don't want immolate because:
-It will result in less ISB uptime (big raid dps loss)
-Likely more user error (a second button to press :P, and have to pay attention to Dot-timers)
-Have to pick up talents, which could be used on non-useless things (Nether Prot/Soul Leech)
-Takes a debuff slot
-Doesn't benefit from spell haste
At early gear levels it might be worth it, but SB scales better with crit rating. and hit rating. and haste rating. and +damage. ShadowSeer can tell you if it's worth it for you, it includes dot damage and ISB.

I'm in BT with 0/21/40. I occasionally use it on bosses as my first spell, so I don't risk aggroing to an early crit, and Shadow Weaving/ISB are not up at that point. Other than that, I can only echo what Rochan says.
#231SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3deadaxe
I dont exactly want to pick up nether prot as i MIGHT be tanking some stuffs here and there once in a while.

As for gear, tbh im really not too sure about taking haste rating because im not in US. I.e. i have a 400~500ping and even with a stopcasting macro i personally dont think i can take much advantage out of the 0.1sec faster casts when my reaction is taken into account :P. Might be interesting come 2.3 tho.

Gear wise I basically have 2 sets which i have yet to test out which does more dps but basically:

More crit = 1236shad dmg, maxed hit, 19.68% crit (w/devastation = 24.68%)
More dmg = 1311, maxed hit, 16.34% crit (w/ devastation = 18.34%)

Definitely dont feel like it is worth trading 80+- dmg for 3.x% crits. Anyways with my current gear is it worth it to cast immo? no?


PS: looking after a 2nd spell is in no way difficult :P ive been affliction for as long as i know so i have no problems keeping ONE dot up lol
#232SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Trickykid
As for gear, tbh im really not too sure about taking haste rating because im not in US. I.e. i have a 400~500ping and even with a stopcasting macro i personally dont think i can take much advantage out of the 0.1sec faster casts when my reaction is taken into account :P. Might be interesting come 2.3 tho.
With quartz, your reaction is relative to the predicted lag, which means you'd get just as much benefit as someone sitting in the server room.

Anyways with my current gear is it worth it to cast immo? no?
Read the posts above yours The rhetoric here is you may see marginal DPS gains but by not throwing out your higher-crit bolts as often, you're lowering raid DPS.

And for me it wasn't that keeping a dot up was hard, it's that the biggest losses in casting time are the "between casts" periods. Shorter spells make that happen more.

EDIT: removed NP proc issues -- apparently it's a problem for Kael.

Last edited by Trickykid : 10/30/07 at 4:07 PM.
#233SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3galzohar
With quartz, your reaction is relative to the predicted lag, which means you'd get just as much benefit as someone sitting in the server room.
That would only be kinda true if your latency was a fixed number 100% of the time. Since your latency changes you still lose cast time, which isn't directly dependant on your latency but on how much your latency changes.
#234SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
NP works fine on Illhoof and I've heard it doesn't affect tanking Leo. You can always make a remove aura macro if you're worried.
NP does not work fine on Illhoof. When it procs, the imps will start firebolting a healer instead. Not that it matters that much on Illhoof.

It works fine for Leotheras. It does not proc on him, probably by design.

It does NOT work fine for Kael'thas, though, if you're tanking Capernian. Nether protection procs can get someone killed. Even if you're fast with clicking off the buff (or use the macro) it's one spell aimed at someone else.
#235SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by deadaxe View Post
More crit = 1236shad dmg, maxed hit, 19.68% crit (w/devastation = 24.68%)
More dmg = 1311, maxed hit, 16.34% crit (w/ devastation = 18.34%)

Definitely dont feel like it is worth trading 80+- dmg for 3.x% crits. Anyways with my current gear is it worth it to cast immo? no?


PS: looking after a 2nd spell is in no way difficult :P ive been affliction for as long as i know so i have no problems keeping ONE dot up lol
Use ShadowSeer if you really want to find out the damage-per-casting-time.
#236SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rochan
Nether Protection doesn't work on Illidan either it was funny watching people get owned by shadowbolts and people screaming on vent that they pulled agro the first time we had a NP warlock tank.
I've read you can spam some sort of /cancelaura Nether Protection macro while tanking but I've not confirmed if this is reliable or not.

Either way, it's pretty stupid that it makes us unable to tank virtually all bosses Warlocks are supposed to tank.
#237SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nas
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
Nether Protection doesn't work on Illidan either it was funny watching people get owned by shadowbolts and people screaming on vent that they pulled agro the first time we had a NP warlock tank.
I've read you can spam some sort of /cancelaura Nether Protection macro while tanking but I've not confirmed if this is reliable or not.

Either way, it's pretty stupid that it makes us unable to tank virtually all bosses Warlocks are supposed to tank.
I've tried using a /cancelaura NP line included in my Searing Pain macro and spamming it (didn't stopcast that for obvious reasons) - and no, it was not reliable at all when tanking Capernian, she still ran at me quite often and I had to resort to kiting her around which was very messy. Had to spec out of NP right after that go.
#238SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3LCN
A long time lurker signing in for duty. o/

Anyway, on to the question. How is the healthstone crit % calculated? Is it the spell crit %, melee crit % or some random fixed number, like 15-20% or so? Now this may sound mad, but during the 2 years I've played this game with the 2 of my warlocks I've never really even thought about this.
#239SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Arelenda
Originally Posted by LCN View Post
A long time lurker signing in for duty. o/

Anyway, on to the question. How is the healthstone crit % calculated? Is it the spell crit %, melee crit % or some random fixed number, like 15-20% or so? Now this may sound mad, but during the 2 years I've played this game with the 2 of my warlocks I've never really even thought about this.
Take a look at this Wow Web Stats

Sort by crit rate, and you get everyone that has high spell crit on top.

While not proven, I'd say spell crit % is far more likely than any other possible theory.

Last edited by Arelenda : 11/01/07 at 7:19 AM.
#240SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3LCN
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
I seem to find consistent crit ratios of over 15%, so I'm guessing regular spell crit.
Well I guess this could be tested, but as I'm not at home right now. And I'm pretty sure someone has the hard facts about it anyway.

On one hand it doesnt make sense that spell crit % would effect it, seeing as (as far as I know) consuming a healthstone is not a spell effect, rather a consumable effect of some sorts. One guess I've heard was that it would be the spell crit %, but it'd be tallied in when the stone is created, not when it's consumed. That makes no sense at all tbh.
#241SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3doogless
I'd guess consuming a Healthstone counts as a spell, since Healthstone crits can proc stuff like [Shiffar's Nexus-Horn]
#242SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by LCN View Post
Well I guess this could be tested, but as I'm not at home right now. And I'm pretty sure someone has the hard facts about it anyway.

On one hand it doesnt make sense that spell crit % would effect it, seeing as (as far as I know) consuming a healthstone is not a spell effect, rather a consumable effect of some sorts. One guess I've heard was that it would be the spell crit %, but it'd be tallied in when the stone is created, not when it's consumed. That makes no sense at all tbh.
There's no such thing as a consumable effect. It's all spells.
#243SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3LCN
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
There's no such thing as a consumable effect. It's all spells.
Or spell/skill?
#244SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krathis
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Take a look at this Wow Web Stats

Sort by crit rate, and you get everyone that has high spell crit on top.

While not proven, I'd say spell crit % is far more likely than any other possible theory.
Purely anecdotal but I've noticed a lot more health stone crits using a demonology spec then I ever saw with affliction (4% more crit from DT). Generally I eat the health stones I create first (simply because they're the largest) so I can't say if it looks like the affliction locks 2080s crit less often or not.

Again this is purely anecdotal.
#245SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Crepe
The message in the combat log is "Your healthstone heals you for X" or "Your healthstone critically heals you for 2*X", so I suspect it's your spellcrit rate.
#246SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3galzohar
Shouldn't they crit for 1.5X?
#247SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Furio
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Shouldn't they crit for 1.5X?
They do. Don't forget your Fel Armor buffs your healing received - including that received from Healthstones.
#248SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
It's 1.5x.
#249SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3galzohar
Even with buffs, your normal would be 120% and the crit is 1.5X of that 120%...
#250SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Bubonic
Some people have mentioned using fighting succubus with lash of pain on certain fights to gain best dps with demo build.

Doesnt lash of pain consume ISB uptime? And if it does is it really worth using?
#251SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Crepe
Hadn't actually bothered checking if Ruin effected them or not. Checking back over my guild's WWS logs, I see one critically healing me for 4717 = 2080 (base) * 1.20 (talented HS) * 1.5 (crit) * 1.26 (talented FA).

They're not "destruction" spells, so this makes sense.

(And yes, I know talented HS only effects the HS produced, not consumed. I just wanted to calculate from the base value, since I couldn't remember the talented value off-hand.)
#252SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Bubonic View Post
Some people have mentioned using fighting succubus with lash of pain on certain fights to gain best dps with demo build.

Doesnt lash of pain consume ISB uptime? And if it does is it really worth using?
It does and therefore it's not.
#253SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 frmorrison
There is no meta gem section.

While atm the MSD is the best Meta (assuming you don't need yellow gems, otherwise use 12 damage)

In 2.3, there are 4 choices:
MSD (nerfed to 45 sec cooldown and 6 second buff, use 1 more blue than yellow)
12 damage (old standby, needs 2 yellow/1 red)
CSD (12 crit rating and 3% better crits, use just 2 blue gems)
Bracing Earthstorm Diamond (9 damage and 2% -threat use more yellow/red than blue)

For Destro/Demon, CSD will be the best, but for Affliction you have a choice. IMO, the BED is the best, because you only need one yellow (use red in other places) and more -threat isn't too bad.
#254SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3PSGarak
There's also a meta gem from the Ogri'La flask-place event that gives 14dmg/5% stun resist. [Imbued Unstable Diamond], Imbued Unstable Diamond - Items - World of Warcraft
Cost is 100 apexis shards, and requires beating the third wave in the event, which probably takes a 25-man raid with good coordination.
#255SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 frmorrison
In addition to needing 100 shards (not hard to get) 25 people there to help you, you also need exactly 3 yellow gems.

Not worth getting, the damage lost from 3 yellows is too much (compared to just 2 yellow for +12 damage).
#256SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
There is no meta gem section.

While atm the MSD is the best Meta (assuming you don't need yellow gems, otherwise use 12 damage)

In 2.3, there are 4 choices:
MSD (nerfed to 45 sec cooldown and 6 second buff, use 1 more blue than yellow)
12 damage (old standby, needs 2 yellow/1 red)
CSD (12 crit rating and 3% better crits, use just 2 blue gems)
Bracing Earthstorm Diamond (9 damage and 2% -threat use more yellow/red than blue)

For Destro/Demon, CSD will be the best, but for Affliction you have a choice. IMO, the BED is the best, because you only need one yellow (use red in other places) and more -threat isn't too bad.
Excellent work. Including.
#257SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krathis
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
In addition to needing 100 shards (not hard to get) 25 people there to help you, you also need exactly 3 yellow gems.

Not worth getting, the damage lost from 3 yellows is too much (compared to just 2 yellow for +12 damage).
Are you sure on the gem requirement for this? I know I've seen it mentioned several times on wowhead and thottbot but there's a warlock poster on these forums I armoried that has it equipped and his other gems would break that gemming requirement (he stacks mostly yellow crit/damage gems). The World of Warcraft Armory

Not sure if the armory would show us rather or not the gem was active but it does appear to be active.
#258SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 frmorrison
It seems all those posters are wrong. Since the meta is appears to be active on that profile, it seems the meta requirement is at least 3 yellow gems.

My opinion remains, for the best dps you use all reds (assuming hit capped), needing at least 3 yellows is bad.


If the OP wants to fix the gem requirements (to at least 3 yellows), might as well add that the Ashtongue Talisman of Shadows is generally not with using, even with instant corruption, due to low proc rate and short duration of the buff.

However, if there was a situation where you could constantly have 2 corruptions up at the same time, the trinket starts to become very useful.
#259SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3KnThrak
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
My opinion remains, for the best dps you use all reds (assuming hit capped), needing at least 3 yellows is bad.
But that's the thing, you might as well have your +hit to cap on 3 orange damage/hit gems, fulfill the Meta requirements, and then have less +spellhit on another item.

Depends basically on what you get your hands on first.
#260SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
It seems all those posters are wrong. Since the meta is appears to be active on that profile, it seems the meta requirement is at least 3 yellow gems.

..

If the OP wants to fix the gem requirements (to at least 3 yellows), might as well add that the Ashtongue Talisman of Shadows is generally not with using, even with instant corruption, due to low proc rate and short duration of the buff.
I wouldn't mind updating the compendium, but I'd need to see data.

The yellow gem requirement _seems_ to have been dropped. I don't see it anywhere, while I can see all other meta gem requirements correctly on wowhead and thottbot.

I'll update about the talisman.
#261SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krathis
It may be worth noting in the OP that when using the succubus with 0/40/21 or any variant that Lash of Pain probably shouldn't be used due to it's affect on ISB uptime.

Variants
The Succubus build is an alternative to 0/21/40. It has Demonic Tactis (5% crit) and Soul Link and Demonic Knowledge (typically around +200 damage for a raid buffed succubus). It doesn't have the 0/21/40 Backlash (3% crit) and SnD (20% spellpower to Shadow Bolt/Incinerate). For reference, a Succubus has a lot less hit points and has no avoidance to aoe effects compared to a Felguard. Also note that the use of it's 'Lash of Pain' ability is generally inadvisable due to the drop in ISB uptime it will cause.
Or something like that.
#262SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Krathis View Post
It may be worth noting in the OP that when using the succubus with 0/40/21 or any variant that Lash of Pain probably shouldn't be used due to it's affect on ISB uptime.

...

Or something like that.
That's already mentioned in tips, I think.
#263SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Krathis
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
That's already mentioned in tips, I think.
Yeah it is actually. Completely missed that line.

"Basic gear choices (see below)
Spell hit > Spell Haste > Spell damage > Spell Crit"

I show Hit > Damage > Haste > Crit for a 1400 spell damage, 25 crit, 12 hit demo 'lock and show damage pulling ahead of haste on a few spec and stat variants. This goes for both full felguard builds and succubus builds (rather or not the succubus is attacking).

Because Demo relies on Immolate and Corruption in the casting rotation I don't see how haste could pull ahead of spell damage for the build, especially considering spell damage affects demon melee damage and haste does not. Unless of course you drop Immolate and Corruption from the cast sequence but even then I show damage ahead for both builds (though the gap gets closed significantly). Am I missing something?

Last edited by Krathis : 11/07/07 at 5:43 PM.
#264SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Wakazashi
I'm trying to figure out whether or not I should buy BoJ gear in 2.3 that has spellhaste on it, less spell damage, no crit or hit compared to my current gear.. all about maximizing my DPS..

My toons name is Lyblo on Veknilash

armory The World of Warcraft Armory

I raid 0/21/40 i'll be picking up the s3 spellblade for a 146 damage increase (w/ soulfrost) over my current weapon very soon. and i've got about 250 dkp to spend on SSC/TK loot (we're phase 4 on KT so should be entering MH/BT Soonish)

just wondering how many badges I should collect for that gear as I've never used spellhaste before in calculations.
#265SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
galzohar
The lieuler's spreadsheet at the front page should answer your haste questions...

Last edited by galzohar : 11/08/07 at 8:16 PM.
#266SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 frmorrison
Just noticed three oversights:

Spirit
If you have a Priest with Improved Divine Spirit present, 10% (not 5) of your Spirit goes to spell power. Therefore 1 Spirit = 0.1 spell damage.

Affliction
On the first note, add Siphon Life to the list of spells to keep up.

Demo
The ranking says Spell hit > Spell Haste > Spell damage > Spell Crit, but Damage beats haste with Demo, because the Demon gets 57% of +damage you have and Demo still casts Corruption and Immolate, which get little returns from haste.
#267SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Trickykid
Edit: Removing post; changes either edited in or I'm blind.

Last edited by Trickykid : 11/09/07 at 6:36 PM.
#268SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Anyakfe
About the 0/21/40, I'm surprised you wrote:
Spell hit > Spell Haste > Spell damage/Crit
The excel spreadsheet tells me (it may vary a little bit but it stays in that range):
1critrate = ~0.84 dmg
1hasterate = ~0.87 dmg
1hitrate = ~1.37 if not capped, 0 if capped
Shouldn't be Hit > Spell Damage > Haste/Crit ?

On top of that, If we consider that ISB also gives a boost to the affli locks & sp dots (and not only the personal dps boost) the critrate should be a little bit higher.
#269SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Anyakfe View Post
About the 0/21/40, I'm surprised you wrote:


The excel spreadsheet tells me (it may vary a little bit but it stays in that range):
1critrate = ~0.84 dmg
1hasterate = ~0.87 dmg
1hitrate = ~1.37 if not capped, 0 if capped
Shouldn't be Hit > Spell Damage > Haste/Crit ?

On top of that, If we consider that ISB also gives a boost to the affli locks & sp dots (and not only the personal dps boost) the critrate should be a little bit higher.
Not according to ShadowSeer, which translates gained casting time into Shadow Bolt spam plus lifetaps (and incorporates ISB in the calculations). It consistently gives me slightly higher numbers for haste over crit. Haste does suffer from high diminishing returns, though.

I'm not sure why the spreadsheet would different. 0/21/40 typically uses only shadow bolts and curses, though. If you include Immolate or Corruption you might see different results.
#270SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Anyakfe
Unfortunatly, Shadowseer does not work with the french client :/.
About the spreadsheet it's using only CoD & SB spam.
#271SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Kobal
Originally Posted by Anyakfe View Post
The excel spreadsheet tells me (it may vary a little bit but it stays in that range):
1critrate = ~0.84 dmg
1hasterate = ~0.87 dmg
1hitrate = ~1.37 if not capped, 0 if capped
Shouldn't be Hit > Spell Damage > Haste/Crit ?

On top of that, If we consider that ISB also gives a boost to the affli locks & sp dots (and not only the personal dps boost) the critrate should be a little bit higher.
One thing that is not mentioned at all in the compendium yet, and which maybe is worth mentioning: If your crit increases, you improve not only your own DPS, but also the DPS of your fellow warlocks and shadow priests in the raid via increasing ISB uptime.

Since I wanted to have numbers that are at least a little more precise than handwaving, I tried to include an estimate of the Raid DPS gain via my contribution to ISB-Uptime into my own spreadsheet. While it is not 100% precise, the estimate is not that bad either.

And the results (0/21/40 spec here) were more or less what I expected: For individual DPS, yes, critrating hovers somewhere between 0,8 and 0,9 spelldamage, but for raid DPS it jumps up to between 1,1 and 1,3 spelldamage, of course heavily dependent of the number (and spec) of the other warlocks and shadow priests in the raid.
#272SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Anyakfe
Originally Posted by Kobal View Post
(...) And the results (0/21/40 spec here) were more or less what I expected: For individual DPS, yes, critrating hovers somewhere between 0,8 and 0,9 spelldamage, but for raid DPS it jumps up to between 1,1 and 1,3 spelldamage, of course heavily dependent of the number (and spec) of the other warlocks and shadow priests in the raid.
I'm really interrested by that. Could you please share what you have added to the spreadsheet ?
It would be very interesting to calculate the relative stats coeff based on the raid composition intead of the personal dps impact.
#273SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Marklar
Originally Posted by Krathis View Post
Are you sure on the gem requirement for this? I know I've seen it mentioned several times on wowhead and thottbot but there's a warlock poster on these forums I armoried that has it equipped and his other gems would break that gemming requirement (he stacks mostly yellow crit/damage gems). The World of Warcraft Armory

Not sure if the armory would show us rather or not the gem was active but it does appear to be active.
I actually have an [Imbued Unstable Diamond] in my bank, and I can confirm that it requires exactly 3 yellow gems. I don't know why the sites don't show the requirement; it shows clearly on the item in game. I'm keeping it for possible use when I reduce my yellow gems as I get more +hit on my gear.

edit: For anyone curious about the encounter, it seemed trivial compared to Gruul. My guild did the event on a whim when our Gruul raid finished 5 minutes before the event started. We had no idea what would happen and basically just tanked the bosses and AoE'd everything else.

Last edited by Marklar : 11/09/07 at 4:33 PM.
#274SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nas
I've been having a hard time deciding whether or not haste would be viable when one has a high variable latency of 400-600 ms. I suppose my logic is with such high latency regardless of how well SBs are stopcasted, stopping some will take long enough to negate any benefit one would get from haste. Would someone with high latency benefit less from haste than someone with say roughly 100ms or less? Or is my logic flawed?
#275SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Nas View Post
I've been having a hard time deciding whether or not haste would be viable when one has a high variable latency of 400-600 ms. I suppose my logic is with such high latency regardless of how well SBs are stopcasted, stopping some will take long enough to negate any benefit one would get from haste. Would someone with high latency benefit less from haste than someone with say roughly 100ms or less? Or is my logic flawed?
Someone with highly varying latency might see less benefit (although you could make the argument they could be safer while being more aggressive with stopcasting). Having high latency by itself shouldn't matter, though. I would still say that haste will give the same % benefit since no matter the lag, you're just able to stopcast a little more aggressively and still be safe.

Also keep in mind 2.3 is likely coming very soon, so there will be changes to the stopcasting mechanic.
#276SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3galzohar
latency's effect on haste

Latency has very small, yet existant, effect on the effectiveness of haste. If you figure out how much time you lose for every spellcast, then figure out the "effective haste" ((old time between casts / new time between casts) - 1, after adding latency), you'll see that you get quite close to the same benefit somoene with 0 latency would be getting, although slightly slightly less.

With latency being X, H being the haste (0.01=1%) and T being the base casting time:

haste gain with latency = (X + T) / (X + T / (1+H)) - 1

Note that X is the time lost and not your actual latency, so even with 1000ms ping if you can stopcast and only lose 0.4s on average between casts then X=0.4 and not 1. Basically if X isn't << T then your DPS sucks so bad no raiding guild will take you anyway, which should be enough to justify my X<<T assumption.

With X << T:
haste gain with latency = H - X*H*(1+H)/T + (a bunch of less significant stuff)

The "bunch of less significant stuff" is less significant because it includes (X/T)^2, ^3 etc which are significantly smaller than X/T if X << T.

As you can see your loss of haste dut to latency is very small and is estimated as roughly X*H*(1+H)/T.

For common haste ratings, H is also << 1 in which case you can estimate the loss of latency as H*X/T, so with 1% haste and 0.2 delay between casts on a 2.5s cast spell you lose approximately 0.01*0.2/2.5=0.0008 or 0.08% hatse, and are left with 0.92% haste where a player with 0 latency would get 1%.

Feel free to copy-paste this explanation wherever is relevant (assuming I made no errors).
#277SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Anyakfe View Post
About the 0/21/40, I'm surprised you wrote:


The excel spreadsheet tells me (it may vary a little bit but it stays in that range):
1critrate = ~0.84 dmg
1hasterate = ~0.87 dmg
1hitrate = ~1.37 if not capped, 0 if capped
Shouldn't be Hit > Spell Damage > Haste/Crit ?
You are using an old version of the spreadsheet, but there was only one fix made recently that you can do yourself if you don't want to download the sheet again.

Change the value of spell haste from the old value of 20ish to the new value of 15.77, and you will see haste beat damage for SB/Curse spam.
#278SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3torky
CoA vs CoS

me and a frend are debating what produces more dps for a affliction warlock. does 3 points in malediction do more dmg than 2 points in CoA, considering i use sifon life, corruption unstable affliction and SB. i'm thinking using CoA is better but he dpes bring a good point in that CoS buffs all my shadow spells, so if anyone can help me out i would greatly apreciate it.
#279SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Trickykid
If you're the only shadow-DPS in the raid, CoA/CoD will do more damage than CoS. Check your local warlock spreadsheet for details. The point of CoS is for raiding, and being able to increase DPS for all shadow/arcane DPS.
#280SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3torky
ty for the info
#281SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3galzohar
Enough that there are 2 shadow users in the raid, CoS is generally worth using, which means as an affliction warlock you'll be expected to cast talented CoS which makes points in CoA pretty much wasted. TBH you'll never run with less shadow users in a 25-man, maybe in a 5/10-man and even then usually you'll at least have a shadow priest too.
And don't forget CoD>talented CoA on most bosses so there isn't much point speccing imp CoA anyway.

Again, you can check the spreadsheet to get numbers for whatever you want.
#282SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
And don't forget CoD>talented CoA on most bosses so there isn't much point speccing imp CoA anyway.
Amped Doom beats CoA. However, unamped Doom is weak compared to a +1400 damage CoA, even accounting for extra cast times.

However, this is only for Affliction warlocks, for everyone else Doom is the best dps curse.
#283SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3GSH
Which Blessings do warlocks prefer? The first Blessing is probably Salvation, but do you prefer Kings or Wisdom as the second Blessing (assume only 2 paladins).
#284SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Rahlar
Salv is obviously the first choice. Beyond that it somewhat depends on the situation; when standing and nuking the 50 mp/5 from wisdom means fewer lifetaps, but most fights have enough movement to allow for comfortable lifetapping and wisdom's contribution isn't exactly *massive*, amounting to one less lifetap every three minutes. Kings gives more health which is incredibly important in T6 encounters, as wel as boosting mana and crit (albeit by a small amount). I personally prefer kings for most things, but arguments can be made for wisdom due to it having a more direct impact on your DPS.
#285SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by GSH View Post
Which Blessings do warlocks prefer? The first Blessing is probably Salvation, but do you prefer Kings or Wisdom as the second Blessing (assume only 2 paladins).
In order of importance:

1. Salvation. Only one that matters, really.

2. Kings gives you a higher health/mana pool and a bit more crit chance because of added intellect. Even for non-demonologists this one is usually the best.

3. Wisdom gives you additional mana, reducing the need for Life Tap/Dark Pact slightly. You get 50mp5 talented or about a Life Tap's worth per 2-3 minutes.

4. Blessing of Light improves healing done on you by paladins slightly.


Blessings are typically more important to other classes. Salvation is still very convenient, allowing almost full dps at all times when combined with Soul Shatter.
#286SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Antoine
Can somebody shoot me a list of the t6 bosses where it's not safe to go above 100% of MT threat? I know you don't pull aggro on a tank n spank from range until you're at 130, but are there bosses where if you go above 100 you mess something up? I'm envisioning the tank missing a fear on Archimonde and him going after me and sticking, or something like that. Are there any bosses where secondary abilities mess up if you go above 100?
#287SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3galzohar
Fears after 2.3 should no longer cause this sort of things (although now I'm pretty sure they do although I hadn't done archimonde himself, on nightbane and even nef/ony back in the day it was almost obvious although not thoroughly tested). However I've noticed some boss (forgot where it was, wasn't in a raid) where he stunned the tank and went to the highest on threat (me) without me doing any damage between the stun and him switching targets nor me going anywhere near 130% (but was above 100%).

Overall a list of those bosses would definitely be very useful if any guild actually dared to test.
#288SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 frmorrison
Gorefiend and Bloodboil you don't want to go over 100% of the MT.

On Illidan during the demon/normal form changes you don't want to go over 100% either, unless you are tanking. However there are other things to distract you during that time, but the point stands.
#289SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Myul
Your tank eat fear and you loot Archimonde anyway?

You can go "all out" at:
- Supremus, Kite Phase
- Akama, Shade Phase and on the mobs upstairs
- RoS, Phase One
- Gurtogg Bloodboil, during Felrage

And you can do some crazy amount of dps with very decent tanks (1200+ tps) on the common tank&spank bosses, too. An early Soulshatter should be enough for the whole time on these fights.
#290SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
leber
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Haste does suffer from high diminishing returns, though.
My first EJ post, though I have read for a long time.

I was wondering if we could delve into the diminishing return factor for haste. I am switching from 41/0/20 to 0/21/40 and I was building a gear set it. The aforementioned benefit from haste is most certainly something that you would want to include into and 0/21/40 set, but I don't want to stack too much and waste itemization points on something that I am receiving extremely diminished returns from. Especially since the majority of haste gear has nothing besides stats, haste, and damage. So how much is too much? As I said this decision was a recent one and still haven't played around too much with Leulier's spreadsheet regarding 0/21/40, figured I had planned on bringing it up anyway so might as well make a post early as I wanted some outside opinion as well.

This might be something that should be mentioned in the Compendium once some conclusive evidence comes about concerning haste's diminishing returns as it pertains to 0/21/40.

Again this could also be something that has been brought up in the other thread that I tend to do a lot more skimming in rather then attentive reading. If that is the case, my most sincere apology for being a waste of space. <3

Last edited by leber : 11/11/07 at 2:23 AM.
#291SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by leber View Post
My first EJ post, though I have read for a long time.

I was wondering if we could delve into the diminishing return factor for haste. I am switching from 41/0/20 to 0/21/40 and I was building a gear set it. The aforementioned benefit from haste is most certainly something that you would want to include into and 0/21/40 set, but I don't want to stack too much and waste itemization points on something that I am receiving extremely diminished returns from. Especially since the majority of haste gear has nothing besides stats, haste, and damage. So how much is too much?
ShadowSeer as linked in the compendium does this already. At my gear level it tells me

100 haste rating is about 5-6% extra dps output
100 crit rating is about 4-5%
100 damage is about 4-5%.

This is with a 0/21/40 build, 1300ish spellpower, 12% hit, 24ish% crit, 5% haste (and a Draenei Elemental Shaman)

I'm guessing that at around 10-15% haste you'll see equal gains from each. However, since the differences are so small, latency is probably a lot larger factor than any low amount of haste vs other stat tradeoff. Since casting mechanics are changing in 2.3 things might be different there.

Your mileage may vary.
#292SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Telkster
The following questions seem to come up constantly and it may be useful to have answers or links to answers for them in the compendium:

Boss armor is provided in a link, but when it's ok to use Recklessness due to cleaves/etc (bosses and phases of bosses) would be helpful.

Debuff priority for all classes so affliction warlocks know when to kick immolate or kick another class member in the ass for using a stupid debuff would also be useful.

I'll try to search for the posts but they're mentioned/asked about so many times it gets tough.


Edit: Found a recklessness thread: CoR/amp/dampen magic

Last edited by Telkster : 11/12/07 at 11:35 AM.
#293SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Telkster View Post
Debuff priority for all classes so affliction warlocks know when to kick immolate or kick another class member in the ass for using a stupid debuff would also be useful.
Raid debuff thread:
Raid Debuffs
#294SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rochan
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Gorefiend and Bloodboil you don't want to go over 100% of the MT.

On Illidan during the demon/normal form changes you don't want to go over 100% either, unless you are tanking. However there are other things to distract you during that time, but the point stands.
Why Gorefiend? I can understand on Bloodboil incase the tank gets the aggro wipe (Although you can be above the current tank, you just have to be under the 130% of the 2nd highest tank).

Gorefiend I've been above the tank many times.

Illidan though, definately, heh. The shadowbolt is DEADLY (and on occasion will own the raid if they over agro during the transition)!
#295SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
Why Gorefiend? I can understand on Bloodboil incase the tank gets the aggro wipe (Although you can be above the current tank, you just have to be under the 130% of the 2nd highest tank).

Gorefiend I've been above the tank many times.

Illidan though, definately, heh. The shadowbolt is DEADLY (and on occasion will own the raid if they over agro during the transition)!
Theron can cast doom on the MT if you go over 100%. This will give the entire raid about 50s of blaming you, before the inevitable wipe. (Of course, in the last minute of the fight, you can go over).

This is assuming Theron follows the same mechanic with Doom as Prince with Enfeeble. I didn't risk testing this, for obvious reasons.
#296SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rochan
Well, better him than me :P

I don't believe this is true, we've never had the MT get ghosted. Unless someone can show proof this occurs?
#297SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3 frmorrison
On Gorefiend, I did pull aggro once by going over 110%, I don't recall how it happened, but I think it has something to do with his casting of the Shadow Damage spell (where he changes targets) and when he rechecks aggro list going back to the MT.


There is no way primary aggro can get ghosted, although if someone pulled and then the ghost debuff's timer was up, it could happen.
#298SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Phantasie
Also if you go too far ahead, you can get ghost then accidentally clip his melee range for the threat cap when running off his platform to the ghost spot. This causes him to 1shot you then ghosts squirt out into the raid.

I guess this depends on your tank/raid position but i'm pretty sure everyone uses the same universal spot.
#299SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0clavarnway
Here is me: The World of Warcraft Armory

The spreadsheet says I should be doing 1150 dps roughly, but I don't find myself doing that DPS in any of the fights I'm doing (except AOE stuff where I come close, but I'm pretty cautious on AOE so I could probably be higher on those).

Here are some sample WWS's from different kinds of fights (I don't get to raid much so I'm at the mercy of the schedule on the kinds of fights I get to go to):

Wow Web Stats - Solarian death (that's the kind of AOE fight I was talking about)
Loading... - Lurker death
Wow Web Stats - Magtheridon death (I think the guy at the top of the meters was on a cube right next to Mag, so he could DPS almost the whole time...my cube was at the opposite end of the room)
Wow Web Stats - Void Reaver death (note I was stupid, died once to orbs, once to aggro...very stupid)
Wow Web Stats - Alar death (this is me going nuts in phase 1, and returning to normal phase 2)

So there ya go, I was hoping to give a nice selection.

In summation, I get it that if I make less mistakes (like dying on orbs *cry*) my dps will go up, but is there anything you can tell from these that I could improve on? I just want to kick ass on the few days I get to raid.
#300SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0dakalro
Sheets only tell you your dps in fights like Al'ar P1 at most ... anything with heavy movement, target switching will lower your dps. Though if you compare spreadsheet with a fight like Teron or Rage, Mag P2 if you don't click, you get quite close values but you rarely reach them due to various reasons.

There's also getting a decent estimation of LT/DP frequency and regen from spriest, if you have one. In a fight where I don't pot/have batteries I can go up to 15 LTs, huge dps loss. If in best regen group and potting I pretty much never LT, max 1-2x depending on pot values and batteries' quality.

So if you want to compare, find a log/meter with a fight that's as close to stand still and nuke as possible, calculate a bit how much time you spent LTing then fill up the spreadsheet and see how you did.
#301SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0clavarnway
Ah, so what would be the best way to gauge how I'm doing? Find other WWS's from other guilds and see how those Warlocks are doing? As I said, I don't get to raid much, so I doubt I will get a chance to do one of those ideal fights like you are talking about, the day I get to raid we are usually doing progression bosses and I don't see Teron or Rage coming up any time soon.

I tried searching on WWS's site but the only way I could find to search was it showed the highest ranked guilds first, that didn't help much, as it just makes me feel crappy seeing how much better they are all doing. :p
#302SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rochan
IMO a warlock who gets to use a damage curse should always be top 5, assuming the raid is equally geared and the fight doesn't tailor to one class extensively. We are a very powerful DPS class. If they are doing a bitch curse, then top 10-15 is more likely. Warlock DPS seems to skyrocket late T5 and once you reach T6. Gear allows more warlocks to use destruction effectively and the ISB bump is huge. I was doing 1000 dps back on Hydross but now I can easily do 1700-1800 mashing my face over the keyboard.
#303SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Aliah_KT
Diminishing Returns

First of all let me just say thank you to the original author of this thread and all of the authors of excellent information that has subsequently been posted. I have not read through every single post, so forgive me for missing something if I did, but I have seen some vague references to diminishing returns on Spell Haste and Spell Damage and was wondering if anyone has any hard figures on these numbers. Also, can someone confirm that, as of patch 2.3 (today), the Spell Haste coefficient is indeed 15.77 instead of 20.8?

Thank you in advance for your input!
#304SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
RNemes
It seems clear that the Chaotic Skyfire Diamond will be *the* Gem to get for 0/21/40 now, but I have been wondering just *how* good exactly is it? My guild is just at the stage of working on Vashj now so we have a ways to go before some of the more obvious choices of helms with Meta gem sockets are available from BT.

My decision is a fairly big one then: Keep my Spellstrike Hood complete with proc or replace that with the Engineering helm? (that being the only one i see that is competitive---)

Normally I make great use of the Trinket-wiki for class/spec at Shadowpriest.com to measure the dps of procs and gems, but CSD does not seem to be up there yet so I have tried to figure it out for myself:

Assuming Crit rate of 25% and an average Shadowbolt crit of 6000 over the course of 10 Shadowbolts we have: (this is taking the CSD bonus to be 1.06 given the scaling with Ruin)

(with no CSD) 2.5 * 6000 = 15,000 dmg.

(with CSD) 2.5 * (6000 * 1.06) = 15,900 dmg. So 900 damage is gained over 10 shadowbolts from the CSD.

Assuming a "perfect world" scenario, 10 shadowbolts should take 25 seconds to cast, so (900dmg/25 seconds) = + 36 DPS.

Feeding this DPS result into the leulier spreadsheet, it converts into ~+45 dmg (for my spec).

Without delving too far into the minutiae of my particular situation, suffice it to say that it would be an ultimate gain of about the equivalence of +15 dmg or so for me. (the loss of the SS proc and the need to shuffle some gems around to stay at the hit cap gimp my potential gain here)

This is all assuming my math and methodology are anywhere near being correct.

I am still not sure it is an entirely worthwhile trade-off at this point. (As I would need to drop a profession and level up engineering.)

But this is why I am posting here. Does anyone see an obvious flaw with this method of quantifying the exact dps worth of CSD?

Last edited by RNemes : 11/13/07 at 2:08 PM.
#305SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Trickykid
Originally Posted by Aliah_KT View Post
I have seen some vague references to diminishing returns on Spell Haste and Spell Damage and was wondering if anyone has any hard figures on these numbers.
Check the linked spreadsheet in the original post.

Originally Posted by Aliah_KT View Post
Also, can someone confirm that, as of patch 2.3 (today), the Spell Haste coefficient is indeed 15.77 instead of 20.8?
That was changed in 2.2.
#306SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rochan
Originally Posted by RNemes View Post
It seems clear that the Chaotic Skyfire Diamond will be *the* Gem to get for 0/21/40 now, but I have been wondering just *how* good exactly is it? My guild is just at the stage of working on Vashj now so we have a ways to go before some of the more obvious choices of helms with Meta gem sockets are available from BT.

My decision is a fairly big one then: Keep my Spellstrike Hood complete with proc or replace that with the Engineering helm? (that being the only one i see that is competitive---)

Normally I make great use of the Trinket-wiki for class/spec at Shadowpriest.com to measure the dps of procs and gems, but CSD does not seem to be up there yet so I have tried to figure it out for myself:

Assuming Crit rate of 25% and an average Shadowbolt crit of 6000 over the course of 10 Shadowbolts we have: (this is taking the CSD bonus to be 1.06 given the scaling with Ruin)

(with no CSD) 2.5 * 6000 = 15,000 dmg.

(with CSD) 2.5 * (6000 * 1.06) = 15,900 dmg. So 900 damage is gained over 10 shadowbolts from the CSD.

Assuming a "perfect world" scenario, 10 shadowbolts should take 25 seconds to cast, so (900dmg/25 seconds) = + 36 DPS.

Feeding this DPS result into the leulier spreadsheet, it converts into ~+45 dmg (for my spec).

Without delving too far into the minutiae of my particular situation, suffice it to say that it would be an ultimate gain of about the equivalence of +15 dmg or so for me. (the loss of the SS proc and the need to shuffle some gems around to stay at the hit cap gimp my potential gain here)

This is all assuming my math and methodology is anywhere near being correct.

I am still not sure it is an entirely worthwhile trade-off at this point. (As I would need to drop a profession and level up engineering)

But this is why I am posting here. Does anyone see an obvious flaw with this method of quantifying the exact dps worth of CSD?
I calculate about +30 dps from the crit bonus (x2.06) and another +10 dps from the 14 CR. This is at very high end gear. (approx Leulier 2100 dps w/destro).
#307SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Trickykid
Originally Posted by RNemes View Post
Does anyone see an obvious flaw with this method of quantifying the exact dps worth of CSD?
I think you're double counting the bonus. The gem gives you 3% more damage over your previous crit damage. For non-ruin that means Base*1.5*1.03. For Ruin that means Base*2*1.03. You were doing Base*2*1.06.
#308SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Suggestive
With ruin and CSD, crits are 206%.
#309SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0LockApologist
Originally Posted by clavarnway View Post
Here is me: The World of Warcraft Armory

The spreadsheet says I should be doing 1150 dps roughly, but I don't find myself doing that DPS in any of the fights I'm doing (except AOE stuff where I come close, but I'm pretty cautious on AOE so I could probably be higher on those).

Here are some sample WWS's from different kinds of fights (I don't get to raid much so I'm at the mercy of the schedule on the kinds of fights I get to go to):

Wow Web Stats - Solarian death (that's the kind of AOE fight I was talking about)
Loading... - Lurker death
Wow Web Stats - Magtheridon death (I think the guy at the top of the meters was on a cube right next to Mag, so he could DPS almost the whole time...my cube was at the opposite end of the room)
Wow Web Stats - Void Reaver death (note I was stupid, died once to orbs, once to aggro...very stupid)
Wow Web Stats - Alar death (this is me going nuts in phase 1, and returning to normal phase 2)

So there ya go, I was hoping to give a nice selection.

In summation, I get it that if I make less mistakes (like dying on orbs *cry*) my dps will go up, but is there anything you can tell from these that I could improve on? I just want to kick ass on the few days I get to raid.
You probably need to adjust your DoT gap on the sheet to reflect reality a bit more. Also remember the sheet expects perfect play, and calculates for partial shadowbolts (all your time not spent casting dots/LT is assumed to be SB, even if that is not a whole number of SB casts.
#310SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0RNemes
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
I calculate about +30 dps from the crit bonus (x2.06) and another +10 dps from the 14 CR. This is at very high end gear. (approx Leulier 2100 dps w/destro).

+30 dps sounds about right to me once you throw out the "perfect world" scenario and enter the scenario of life-tapping, etc.

(and just a nit, but the CR bonus itself is just 12.)
#311SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gnomey
- [Sporeling Snack] does work on Warlock Pets. New Pet snacks are coming in 2.3.
I read about the whole thread last night. One thing I am really curious is where can I get the new Pet snacks in 2.3? I also read the patch notes, and it didn't seem to say anything about the new pet snacks.

Thx in advance.
#312SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Aliah_KT
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
Check the linked spreadsheet in the original post.
I appreciate all the hard work that has gone into the DPS spreadsheet that everyone seems so fond of using on this forum, but that's not exactly what I was looking for. I was hoping someone knew of the actual formula for diminishing returns on Spell Haste and/or Spell Damage, or even some kind of conversion table if applicable. I'll keep playing around with the spreadsheet in the meantime, but I haven't been able to find anything of this sort imbedded in the existing calculations yet. I may just be missing something, but if any of you have further info on this I would love it.

Thank you for giving me confirmation on the Spell Haste rating. I thought that was a 2.3 change... my bad! :-D
#313SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Gnomey View Post
I read about the whole thread last night. One thing I am really curious is where can I get the new Pet snacks in 2.3? I also read the patch notes, and it didn't seem to say anything about the new pet snacks.

Thx in advance.
Someone mentioned +20str and sta. I haven't verified this myself.

Patch notes tend to be outdated all the time, though. I assume it'll be in.


To other posters:
Haste was indeed changed to 15.77 for 1% in 2.2, I wrote a hastehack a while ago to get your haste rating on screen (replacing the penetration value). I uploaded it here: Hastehack - Interface Bars - World of Warcraft Mods, Addons, and More!.


The +3% crit damage gem seems impressive, as soon as the patch hits I'd like to see data on it. I don't have a meta gem slot hat at the moment so I can't test it myself, but I'm very interested to see confirmed results of the 3% bonus interacting with ruin.

Simple math for the new gem: let's take best case scenario:
- Assuming 33% crit chance
- No spells but Shadow Bolt used
- The 3% is added after Ruin, so total of 206%

A 3% damage boost to 33% of your spells is about a 1% gain in dps. This is the
equivalent of about 20 spell power.
#314SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Roywyn
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
The +3% crit damage gem seems impressive, as soon as the patch hits I'd like to see data on it. I don't have a meta gem slot hat at the moment so I can't test it myself, but I'm very interested to see confirmed results of the 3% bonus interacting with ruin.

Simple math for the new gem: let's take best case scenario:
- Assuming 33% crit chance
- No spells but Shadow Bolt used
- The 3% is added after Ruin, so total of 206%

A 3% damage boost to 33% of your spells is about a 1% gain in dps. This is the
equivalent of about 20 spell power.
When I tested it on the PTR, it worked like the old RED/resilience before the change.
It increases base crit damage from 150% to 154.5%, thus increases the crit bonus from 50% to 54.5%, and ruin makes it 109%, this critting for 209%.
That's the last I checked on the PTR (confirmed by others) with checking min/max values of certain spells.
#315SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Chimera
Originally Posted by Aliah_KT View Post
I appreciate all the hard work that has gone into the DPS spreadsheet that everyone seems so fond of using on this forum, but that's not exactly what I was looking for. I was hoping someone knew of the actual formula for diminishing returns on Spell Haste and/or Spell Damage, or even some kind of conversion table if applicable.
Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your question, however if not: there are no diminishing returns on haste. At least, not until you get your shadow bolt cast time down to 1.5 seconds, which really isn't going to happen with any type of reasonable gear.

Here, I made you a picture showing how haste effects cast time and dps:


As you can see from the second graph, shadow bolt DPS scales linearly with haste, it has no diminishing returns.

Is this what you were asking? Or were you asking about the relative scaling of haste vs spell damage? IE the more spell damage you have, the more (absolute) DPS you gain from haste, and likewise the more haste you have the more DPS you gain from spell damage.
#316SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Trickykid
Originally Posted by Aliah_KT View Post
I appreciate all the hard work that has gone into the DPS spreadsheet that everyone seems so fond of using on this forum, but that's not exactly what I was looking for. I was hoping someone knew of the actual formula for diminishing returns on Spell Haste and/or Spell Damage, or even some kind of conversion table if applicable. I'll keep playing around with the spreadsheet in the meantime, but I haven't been able to find anything of this sort imbedded in the existing calculations yet. I may just be missing something, but if any of you have further info on this I would love it.
The reason I referenced the spreadsheet was that there aren't really any generalized formula for total DPS. The return from any rating point is a function of the stats you currently have. As I gain spell damage/crit/hit, the DPS gain per haste rating will increase. Technically every rating point has diminishing returns since an additional point will be a smaller percent gain (100->101 is a 1% gain, 101->102 is a 0.99% gain). But at the rating levels most will be working with, this is going to be such a small factor, it's not worth worrying about.

A generalized formula would have to be pretty complex because the benefit of an additional point of any given rating is a function of all of the other ratings. I've been thinking of trying to work out that formula but it's really not worth it when the spreadsheet contains all the actionable information. Your best bet is to plug the numbers into a spreadsheet and see how the ratings pan out.
#317SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rochan
Mathematically it has no diminishing returns vs DPS as you've proven, however, when you include lifetapping, there are slight diminishing returns vs dps because Lifetap gets no benefit from haste.

And by using the Leulier sheet, you can see Haste diminishes relative to +damage. (I.e. keeping +damage constant while increasing haste has diminishing returns of haste vs +dmg.)

However, keeping haste constant and increasing +damage increases haste's relative +damage.
#318SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
Actually if you had no regen other than lifetap haste shouldn't have diminishing returns, as you need to lifetap every X shadowbolts, so haste would effect a certain (large) portion of your casts and that portion would remain equal regardless of how much haste you have.

However regen natureally removes the need to lifetap once per X seconds, but since with haste you lifetap more often your regen removes a smaller part of your lifetaps and thus lifetapping becomes a larger portion of your casts. So if you have any regen it'll cause haste to have slight diminishing returns, and the more regen you have the larger the diminishing retunrs be.

Of course haste is still better with regen than with no regen no matter how much regen you have (as lifetaps are a smaller portion of your casting time). In fact, haste will never be worse than for a warlock with 0 regen. It's just that the more haste you get the (slightly) closer you get to getting the benefit of a 0 regen warlock (since your regen becomes less and less significant in comparison to lifetap).
#319SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Trickykid
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Actually if you had no regen other than lifetap haste shouldn't have diminishing returns, as you need to lifetap every X shadowbolts, so haste would effect a certain (large) portion of your casts and that portion would remain equal regardless of how much haste you have.
Haste only affects the portion of casting time that is spent Bolting. That portion decreases as haste increases (since you lifetap every X bolts, and those bolts happen faster now). That means that each additional point of haste affects a smaller portion of your total DPS time and thus helps less than the previous point if you include Life taps. You can see the results in the sheet as well (or doing some napkin math).
#320SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
On a side note, remember that any kind of diminishing retunrs (or changes in relative values of stats) I've seen so far in the game is totally neglicible when comparing actual items. As in the change in the value of *any* stat due to switching 1-2 items or a few gems is very very small compared ot how much your DPS actually changed from those stats changing. Say (just making up numbers) if at 900 spell damage 1 damage is worth 0.7 crit, and at 920 it's worth 0.69 crit, the fact its value dropped has a neglicible affect on the overall value. If you increased crit by 10 as well, you would get nearly the same results as if you increased damage by 927 even though in reality you got slightly slightly more.
Mathematically this can be shown that 1% DPS increase VIA crit plus 1% DPS increase via spell damage results in DPS*1.01*1.01=DPS*(1+0.1)^2=DPS*(1+0.02+0.01^2)=DPS*(1+0.02+0.0001)~=DPS*1.02. And TBH quite a few item upgrades are under 1% DPS increase total so this rule of "neglect AEP values changing with your stats when comparing items" is actually pretty damn accurate.

That portion decreases as haste increases (since you lifetap every X bolts, and those bolts happen faster now).
Thinking about it you're right, the faster you're casting the smaller % of the time is spent on shadowbolts thus haste does diminish regardless of regen.
#321SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nas
I've been playing around with the new "anti-stopcast" mechanism that has been implemented, I'm not sure if I'm the only one noticing this but it seems to me that if I time my casts and press my Shadowbolt key when I would usually stopcast it the spell just keeps going over the majority of Quartz's "latency area" before stopping and casting the next cast. I'm not sure if I am being dilusional, but it seems that stopcasting might still have the slight edge if one times it correctly without cancelling any spells?
#322SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 frmorrison
I have been casting spells right cast the red line with the new system, but I have a good connection. You can still /stopcast if you think that will perform better.


I am interesting to see some Destro Locks with the new meta showing some old and new WWS. MSD really sucks (of course I knew it would), but as Affliction I like it better than just another 12 damage.

Both "main" JWers got CSD after 40 or so kills, so that farming wasn't bad for them.
#323SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PSGarak
The new pet strength food recipe is a possible reward from the cooking daily quests. By "possible" reward I mean you choose between a crate of meat and a barrel of fish, each of which have a chance to contain a random new recipe, as well as more meat than the daily actually required, on average. I am unaware if certain recipes only drop out of crates or barrels, or if the recipes are entirely shared.

[Kibler's Bits] Kibler's Bits - Items - World of Warcraft requires Buzzard Meat

EDIT: wrong recipe ><
#324SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tyvyr
Originally Posted by Gnomey View Post
- [Sporeling Snack] does work on Warlock Pets. New Pet snacks are coming in 2.3.
I read about the whole thread last night. One thing I am really curious is where can I get the new Pet snacks in 2.3? I also read the patch notes, and it didn't seem to say anything about the new pet snacks.

Thx in advance.
I used Sporeling Snacks on my imp on Sunday night (Nov 11), and it appeared to work just fine. At least, the food buff showed up on under the imp's portrait. Is this an issue where we see the graphic, but the pet doesn't actually receive the benefits?
#325SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Nas
I'd like to touch a bit on threat management as 0/21/40, I seem to always be threat capped over the vast majority of some fights' durations; namely Naj'entus/Rage and sometimes on Teron Gorefiend. Our MT's threat is by no means low, in fact it is top end, and after some thinking I attributed my issues to blowing SoulShatter as soon as I am threat capped, often around the 70% mark of a fight instead of putting up with some DPS downtime and using it closer to the halfway mark - the downtime I would have waiting for the optimal time to shatter would be far less than that I would have to put up with if I shatter too early. That's how I see it anyway.

Just wanted see how other Warlocks in the community deal with threat, if you're putting out the high DPS on a fight with minimal movement requirements, when would you rather slow it down a bit - how do you usually time your shatters? Would downranking Shadowbolt when one is high on threat at the early stages be a good idea? Seeing how part of our utility is ISB, and how we would not be excercising that utility by standing around.

Last edited by Nas : 11/14/07 at 10:58 AM.
#326SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Aliah_KT
Originally Posted by Chimera View Post
Is this what you were asking? Or were you asking about the relative scaling of haste vs spell damage? IE the more spell damage you have, the more (absolute) DPS you gain from haste, and likewise the more haste you have the more DPS you gain from spell damage.
I'm very impressed with all of the information out there on haste, and I can see now that there seems to be no diminishing returns on that particular stat, especially since I don't think it's even possible to attain a haste rating of higher than 300ish. The basic question I'm asking might be better rephrased another way, however. Is there a cap on the amount of bonus spell damage you can have and/or is there ever a time where 1.0 additional bonus spell damage may only actually count (for the sake of Blizzard spell math) as something less than 1.0 spell damage? I'm referring strictly to the stats from gear and not to the actual damage the spell does or other DPS figures.

As an example, I believe Shadow Bolt has a damage coefficient of 0.8571. Assuming I have 1000 bonus damage, this means my Shadow Bolt would gain an additional 857.1 damage. If I have 2000 bonus damage, does that mean my Shadow Bolt gains an additional 1714 damage? Likewise, does 3000 bonus damage (totally unrealistic, I realize) mean I gain 2571 to my Shadow Bolts, and so on, or is there some scaling factor thrown in to prevent people from gaining too much from one particular stat?

Thanks again to everyone for your input!
#327SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Aliah_KT View Post
As an example, I believe Shadow Bolt has a damage coefficient of 0.8571. Assuming I have 1000 bonus damage, this means my Shadow Bolt would gain an additional 857.1 damage. If I have 2000 bonus damage, does that mean my Shadow Bolt gains an additional 1714 damage? Likewise, does 3000 bonus damage (totally unrealistic, I realize) mean I gain 2571 to my Shadow Bolts, and so on, or is there some scaling factor thrown in to prevent people from gaining too much from one particular stat?

Thanks again to everyone for your input!
No, there is no scaling factor. The factor is the same, always.
#328SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rochan
Mathematically, the best time to soulshatter is around 70%.
Cast CoR if agro is tight, it will give the tank more agro by getting him hit harder (more rage) and also directly increasing his damage.
Remember that CoD is less damage/threat than SB. So if you are likely to pull agro, you can cast CoR which should increase your DPS by quite a bit more than CoD in the long run.
I suppose you could downrank SBs to keep the debuff up, but I havent really experimented with that. I usually just make sure im full mana by lifetapping if it's too dangerous to cast any more SBs.
#329SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nas
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
Mathematically, the best time to soulshatter is around 70%.
Cast CoR if agro is tight, it will give the tank more agro by getting him hit harder (more rage) and also directly increasing his damage.
Remember that CoD is less damage/threat than SB. So if you are likely to pull agro, you can cast CoR which should increase your DPS by quite a bit more than CoD in the long run.
I suppose you could downrank SBs to keep the debuff up, but I havent really experimented with that. I usually just make sure im full mana by lifetapping if it's too dangerous to cast any more SBs.
When do you deem threat to be too high on say Omen? I typically try to be underneath the tank in threat, albeit really close to him. However, I have never been comfortable with the notion of being above him even if it were by a few %. I realise that there are bosses where you most definitely would not want to be anywhere over the tank (Teron is one that is mentioned the most), however, there are many other encounters where the bosses would carry out a move that requires them to target someone else in the raid - and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't threat revaluated when a mob does that? Anetheron and Azgalor come to mind with their swarms/dooms.

Perhaps one of my issues is my unwillingness to be above the MT in threat while I wait for the optimal Shatter moment, should I not be this cautious?
#330SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0dakalro
On Teron I think I have gone over the tank a few times ... or more, didn't get him ghosted but only locks seem capable of such a thing. Last kill we used paladin tank and while I wasn't in a decent group another destro lock was and he could barely touch 100%. Did pala tank on Rage also and even if I (only) managed like 1.7k dps (me and 1 affli lock in raid, 2 spriests, didn't have any ISB up for the last 30+ seconds of the fight) I barely got to 100% of threat. This is of course without any soulshattering with the paladin.
Most of the time I just find myself forced to SS right off the start though, at like 80-90%, simply forgetting to wait for more than applying a curse but big problems in trying to not aggro, never had outside of Bloodboil without a Tranq Air totem but even there it depends on "luck" with crits.
#331SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rochan
I push my threat pretty hard. I try to stay as close to 130% as I can obviously without going over. I’ll only finish a shadowbolt cast if I am about 6k threat behind the tank incase I get a 9k crit. Also if I have a CoD about to tick, I’ll leave an additional 8k or so threat buffer. So most fights I try to stay at 115-125% threat. Of course there are some fights you don’t want to go this high: Bloodboil, LoL Reaver , Illidan among others.
Also I still haven’t seen evidence you can ghost the MT on Teron by going over 100%.
#332SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
Also I still haven’t seen evidence you can ghost the MT on Teron by going over 100%.
I guess I'm the one that started that rumor, and it's based on my assumption that it was like Malchezaar.

For now, I think it's more sensible to assume I was wrong and Theron can't.
#333SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Trickykid
Originally Posted by Aliah_KT View Post
Is there a cap on the amount of bonus spell damage you can have and/or is there ever a time where 1.0 additional bonus spell damage may only actually count (for the sake of Blizzard spell math) as something less than 1.0 spell damage?
Actually, spell damage increases in worth with additional stacking at least for 21/40. Not to the point where it's worth sacrificing other stats, however. Each +dmg point increases the DPS of your shadow bolt by a constant amount, but also increases the % of time you're casting SBs (since it decreases LT frequency).
#334SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Suggestive
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
I guess I'm the one that started that rumor, and it's based on my assumption that it was like Malchezaar.

For now, I think it's more sensible to assume I was wrong and Theron can't.
I've gone past 100% on teron, and i got ghosted as soon as the cooldown was up. I'll assume he doesn't have the prince bug , because if he did i shouldn't have been ghosted.
#335SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0clavarnway
Originally Posted by Suggestive View Post
I've gone past 100% on teron, and i got ghosted as soon as the cooldown was up. I'll assume he doesn't have the prince bug , because if he did i shouldn't have been ghosted.
He most likely ignores his current aggro target and not highest threat then.
#336SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Nas View Post
I'd like to touch a bit on threat management as 0/21/40, I seem to always be threat capped over the vast majority of some fights' durations; namely Naj'entus/Rage and sometimes on Teron Gorefiend. Our MT's threat is by no means low, in fact it is top end, and after some thinking I attributed my issues to blowing SoulShatter as soon as I am threat capped, often around the 70% mark of a fight instead of putting up with some DPS downtime and using it closer to the halfway mark - the downtime I would have waiting for the optimal time to shatter would be far less than that I would have to put up with if I shatter too early. That's how I see it anyway.

Just wanted see how other Warlocks in the community deal with threat, if you're putting out the high DPS on a fight with minimal movement requirements, when would you rather slow it down a bit - how do you usually time your shatters? Would downranking Shadowbolt when one is high on threat at the early stages be a good idea? Seeing how part of our utility is ISB, and how we would not be excercising that utility by standing around.
Here's what I do to mitigate threat issues with 0/21/40, and most people seem to use the same tricks.

Initial aggro issues:
- Apply dots instead (Immolate, CoA, Corruption), then follow up with SB spam. Typically on trash you want to use CoA on all tanked mobs before anything else anyway. (provided they live 24 seconds).

Sustained aggro issues:
- Soulshatter as late as possible. Soulshattering too early might make you catch up with the MT later on, which leaves you with no option but to hold dps.

To delay the SoulShatter:
- Lifetap
- Ask to be the CoR warlock instead of using CoD.
- Do fight specific stuff. (preemptively moving to a better position, etc)

Downranking shadow bolts could in theory work, but the returns will be low since you're eating ISB charges as well. The net effect will be positive if you have a high enough crit chance, but don't expect stellar results. It's better than doing nothing at all, obviously.

Personally I rather use any spare time to keep an overview of the fight and figure out what else we could be improving on. I haven't had consistent aggro issues though. Taking it a bit easier for a moment, then Soulshattering usually fixes all my issues.
#337SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
 Stryn
As a raiding demo lock, I must confess that I was extremely happy with the pet AI changes in 2.3. I expected my felguard to attack from behind / side, but I really didn't expect him to dynamically adjust during changes in positioning. I was happy with the net DPS increase, and my tanks were pretty happy about the decrease in parrys as well.

Last edited by Stryn : 11/14/07 at 2:26 PM. Reason: Meant to say "AI" instead of "UI," durr.
#338SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Trickykid
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Sustained aggro issues:
I used to have a crit-heavy set for threat-capped boss fights. My average shadowbolt was worse, but I spent more time casting. Net result was my total damage stayed the same (effective DPS dropped) and I contributed more to ISB uptime.
#339SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
The best time to soulshatter has EXTREME dependance on your threat/sec VS your MT's threat/sec. The more threat you do over him, the later in the fight you should pop it, and the closer your threat generations are the earlier you should be using it. The idea is to almost pull aggro by the end of the fight being capped until shatter and slowing down and going all out after shatter. If this isn't exactly what's happening then your soulshattering timing is not optimal.
If you're not threat capped, obviously, soulshatter does nothing.
#340SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Trickykid
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
The best time to soulshatter has EXTREME dependance on your threat/sec VS your MT's threat/sec. The more threat you do over him, the later in the fight you should pop it, and the closer your threat generations are the earlier you should be using it. The idea is to almost pull aggro by the end of the fight being capped until shatter and slowing down and going all out after shatter. If this isn't exactly what's happening then your soulshattering timing is not optimal.
If you're not threat capped, obviously, soulshatter does nothing.
If we find the optimal time for the last shatter (the most important since it drops the most threat/fight), we can determine the best times to shatter in general.

Aims:
1) End fight at 130% threat of tank.
2) Only shatter when at 130% of tank.

(realistically you'd shatter JUST before 130%... but for the sake of simplicity I'll use 1.3)

Fight length = 1
Time of last shatter = N
Tank's threat gen = 1/unit-time
Lock's threat gen = W/unit-time

At time=N, we're at 130% of tank, shatter and in the length of time (1-N) we generate enough threat to get back to 130% of the tank.

At the end of the fight the tank has 1 threat, so we can have 1.3. Our threat by the end of the fight is the amount of threat we have after the last shatter (1.3 * N / 2) plus the threat generated in 1-N time (1-N)*W.

So we need:
1.3 = (1.3*N/2) + (1-N)W
or
N = (1.3-W)/(.65-W)

Since tank tps = 1, W = warlock_TPS/tank_TPS. So for any given ratio W, this shows the % through the fight when the last shatter should be. Every 5minutes previous to that should have another shatter.

So if W>1.3 (ie you generate enough threat to eventually pull), you should hold back to W=1.3 until the first shatter, at which point you can go hog wild.

Some example ratios W:
W	Boss% at last shatter
1.3	100%
1.4	87%
1.5	76%
1.6	68%
1.7	62%

Last edited by Trickykid : 11/14/07 at 8:45 PM.
#341SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Nas
Excellent suggestions, I know that I will definitely lose that paranoia of going over the tank's threat from now on (bar Teron (just to be safe for now, unless the DPS is really needed), Gurtogg and Illidan in T6 content - any other T6 fights where being 120-128% of the tank's threat would be an issue?

I'd say my value of "W" (going by Trickykid's maths) would be roughly a bit over 1.3 on average, but I'll definitely take a closer look next time around - how useful would a mod that calculates the ratio and put it in a little visible box be? Unfortunately I have next to no experience with programming, heh. Although, I guess Omen can do that in a sense, I'll look more closely at the "Threat vs Player" window Omen provides once I get back home.

I do typically DoT on incomming, I have found that to be very useful - I would have to work on using CoR on more boss fights as well. We typically only have one Affliction Warlock in the raid, and I usually go for utility Curse duty because of the aforementioned threat issues, as for CoR - I suppose there is more paranoia involved there even though theoratically it would be perfectly fine to use on most boss fights.

Last edited by Nas : 11/14/07 at 9:11 PM.
#342SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0clavarnway
Just because I was curious I did some testing.

Shadow Ward was modified in 2.3 to reduce the base absorb, but scale with spell damage.

On current 2.3 live server, my Shadow Ward, with base absorb of 875, and with 1220 +shadow damage, absorbed 1270 Shadow damage. This means that Shadow Ward after 2.3 receives about 32% of your +Shadow damage as extra absorb.

Compare this to our previous version of Shadow Ward before 2.3 which only absorbed for 900 Shadow damage, this is a buff for me.

The break even point where you will absorb the exact same amount as before the patch is about 80 +Shadow damage. Anything more than that, and you will absorb more than before 2.3. Anything below, you will absorb less.

This is from my testing, if anybody wishes to test this also, by all means!
#343SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PSGarak
It actually got some gear scaling as far back as 2.0-ish, although not nearly as much. It was never explicitly documented for shadow ward, although it happened when mages got scaling for fire/frost ward. I want to say that it was around 10%-ish, like all absorb-shield at the time, which would dovetail nicely with me remembering "(1050 absorbed)" or that ballpark from my shadow ward next patch. So it's not as big a buff but it's still pretty big--I'll probably end up netting around 200 on it.
#344SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0clavarnway
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
It actually got some gear scaling as far back as 2.0-ish, although not nearly as much. It was never explicitly documented for shadow ward, although it happened when mages got scaling for fire/frost ward. I want to say that it was around 10%-ish, like all absorb-shield at the time, which would dovetail nicely with me remembering "(1050 absorbed)" or that ballpark from my shadow ward next patch. So it's not as big a buff but it's still pretty big--I'll probably end up netting around 200 on it.
I was not aware of that, but I cite this part of the patch noes as reason for my testing:

Shadow Ward: This spell now gains additional benefit from spell damage bonuses. Base absorb value of rank 4 has been reduced.
#345SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ebi
For crafted items, you should mention the epic engineering head, [Destruction Holo-gogs]. Not all of us are tailors.
#346SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 frmorrison
Before 2.3, my shadow ward absorbed 1100 damage with 1000 damage gear (was tanking Illidan when I looked it up).

I forgot what it absorbs now, but it is absorbing more damage than before.
#347SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
galzohar
Isn't the engineering headpiece better than spellstirke even if it breaks the set bonus anyway? (at least assuming you have other places to drop damage/crit for hit such as gem slots so you remain capped) Meeting the new meta requirements (12 crit 3% crit damage 2 blue gems) pretty much requires you match the socket bonus on your head plus another item with 1 blue socket, while ignoring socket bonuses on the rest. If you compare this gem setup to a setup of socketing each item optimally you probably won't get much dps difference anyway - probably 5 spell damage worth at the worst, more likely 1-2 spell damage worth net loss from meeting the meta's requirements if not even less (actual number really really depends on your gear and availability of epic gems but it's low in every case).

Then again T5 pretty close to it (with a lot more stam on the side) and you will sooner or later unequip your goggles, while proffessions like enchanting stay forever. Then again you can only have 2 proffessions, but for most people tailoring is quite a must-have.

Last edited by galzohar : 11/16/07 at 12:59 AM.
#348SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Soulriper
You say that shadow/destro spec is the best spec that scales with gear, and that outruns Affliction in high end raids. I'd just like to know when and with what kind of gear, one aff lock should respec and go shadow/destro for raids? How much +spell hit and dmg would he need to make the spec more viable then Affliction?
#349SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Trickykid
Originally Posted by Soulriper View Post
You say that shadow/destro spec is the best spec that scales with gear, and that outruns Affliction in high end raids. I'd just like to know when and with what kind of gear, one aff lock should respec and go shadow/destro for raids? How much +spell hit and dmg would he need to make the spec more viable then Affliction?
From original post:
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
There has been much debate about what the exact gear treshold is, for destruction to outperform affliction. Opinions are divided on the matter. Both specs require different play styles, resulting in boss fights typically favoring one spec over the other. ISB damage is hard to measure. Because of this it is virtually impossible to get solid evidence. The debate is unlikely to cease any time soon. The old rule of thumb "you need Hyjal/BT gear for destruction to outperform affliction" is most definitely untrue.
The best idea if you're curious about it is to respec and see how you compare to yourself.
#350SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Soulriper View Post
You say that shadow/destro spec is the best spec that scales with gear, and that outruns Affliction in high end raids. I'd just like to know when and with what kind of gear, one aff lock should respec and go shadow/destro for raids? How much +spell hit and dmg would he need to make the spec more viable then Affliction?
Is answered by the compendium.

Originally Posted by Compendium
There has been much debate about what the exact gear treshold is, for destruction to outperform affliction. Opinions are divided on the matter. Both specs require different play styles, resulting in boss fights typically favoring one spec over the other. ISB damage is hard to measure. Because of this it is virtually impossible to get solid evidence. The debate is unlikely to cease any time soon. The old rule of thumb "you need Hyjal/BT gear for destruction to outperform affliction" is most definitely untrue.

It depends more on playstyle, player skill and taste then on spec, at low gear levels. Both specs work and will do good damage. In my experience, even at Khara level destro locks are viable. As more gear becomes available, destruction clearly outperforms affliction. For this reason I recommend having one and only one affliction warlock in a raid, for Blood Pact and Talented CoS. Of course, with Fire mages maybe becoming more viable in 2.3, CoE might make a comeback.
#351SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krathis
Originally Posted by clavarnway View Post

In summation, I get it that if I make less mistakes (like dying on orbs *cry*) my dps will go up, but is there anything you can tell from these that I could improve on? I just want to kick ass on the few days I get to raid.
I know this was a few pages back but I went over your WWS reports and you guys are probably pushing each other's dots off. It looks like you use 5 affliction 'locks on most fights and a shadow priest. Even the warlocks that aren't using UA are using Siphon Life. With three affliction 'locks and one shadow priest we hit the debuff cap in our raid.

In my opinion taking more then two affliction 'locks isn't good for raid dps. The other three of you should respec to either less dot heavy builds or dotless builds period. I know there's a lot of people that will tell you not to go destruction until later in the game but this is one of those situations were having some of you respec to it would benefit everyone.
#352SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0clavarnway
Originally Posted by Krathis View Post
I know this was a few pages back but I went over your WWS reports and you guys are probably pushing each other's dots off. It looks like you use 5 affliction 'locks on most fights and a shadow priest. Even the warlocks that aren't using UA are using Siphon Life. With three affliction 'locks and one shadow priest we hit the debuff cap in our raid.

In my opinion taking more then two affliction 'locks isn't good for raid dps. The other three of you should respec to either less dot heavy builds or dotless builds period. I know there's a lot of people that will tell you not to go destruction until later in the game but this is one of those situations were having some of you respec to it would benefit everyone.
Thanks for the advice. Currently in our guild we have 2 Destruction warlocks, a Demonology warlock, and 2 Affliction warlocks. I believe one of those Destro locks was Affliction on the WWS you saw, but he respecced Destro pretty soon after. I don't think he did it because of debuff issues, but that might have worked out pretty well.

I recently got new frames so I can better see if we are hitting the debuff limit..I never thought about it before, but 40 really isn't that many spots when some classes by themselves can take up 7-8 debuffs.
#353SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nas
Would it be worth adding [Hex Shrunken Head] to the list of trinkets, as well as [Skull of Gul'dan] ? I'm looking through a couple of threads to find out which would be better - even though in the end, one would ideally want to use both.
#354SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Jimad
I have just a couple of questions regarding the ISB proc, for which I haven't been able to find direct answers.

1) Once ISB procs, and we have 12 seconds or 4 non periodic sources of shadow damage until it expires, does it affect DoTs already applied to the target? Keeping things simple, assume each *unmodified* tick of my Corruption spell is 100 damage. The second ISB is applied to the target, will an already active Corruption then begin to tick for 120, or must a new Corruption be applied in order to benefit from ISB?

2) Suppose there are two warlocks in a raid. If warlock #1 procs an ISB, will warlock #2's ISB proc : a) refresh the original ISB; 2) consume one of the four ISB charges, and not refresh the original ISB; or 3) stack.

My apologies if this has been clearly covered. After a bit of searching I simply couldn't find those answers. I'm also quite new to raiding, so excuse me if this is "common knowledge". Thanks.
#355SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nas
Originally Posted by Jimad View Post
I have just a couple of questions regarding the ISB proc, for which I haven't been able to find direct answers.

1) Once ISB procs, and we have 12 seconds or 4 non periodic sources of shadow damage until it expires, does it affect DoTs already applied to the target? Keeping things simple, assume each *unmodified* tick of my Corruption spell is 100 damage. The second ISB is applied to the target, will an already active Corruption then begin to tick for 120, or must a new Corruption be applied in order to benefit from ISB?

2) Suppose there are two warlocks in a raid. If warlock #1 procs an ISB, will warlock #2's ISB proc : a) refresh the original ISB; 2) consume one of the four ISB charges, and not refresh the original ISB; or 3) stack.

My apologies if this has been clearly covered. After a bit of searching I simply couldn't find those answers. I'm also quite new to raiding, so excuse me if this is "common knowledge". Thanks.
1: Yes, all active dots will be affected, not just ones you apply after ISB is put up.

2: (a)
#356SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Jimad
Originally Posted by Nas View Post
1: Yes, all active dots will be affected, not just ones you apply after ISB is put up.

2: (a)
Thank you, good sir. I didn't put a whole lot of thought into ISB until I began raiding, and it turns out its even better than I thought.
#357SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Jimad View Post
I have just a couple of questions regarding the ISB proc, for which I haven't been able to find direct answers.

1) Once ISB procs, and we have 12 seconds or 4 non periodic sources of shadow damage until it expires, does it affect DoTs already applied to the target? Keeping things simple, assume each *unmodified* tick of my Corruption spell is 100 damage. The second ISB is applied to the target, will an already active Corruption then begin to tick for 120, or must a new Corruption be applied in order to benefit from ISB?
Usually about a second after a crit the ISB debuff is applied. I stacks multiplicative with other damage multipliers (as in, it'll increase damage by 20% regardless of whether CoS, Misery, Shadow Weaving Debuff is up).

While it is up, it will affect all dot tics and Shadow spells. Note that it will affect all Shadow Bolts that are cast while the debuff is up, including those still traveling to their target when the debuff is removed.


ShadowSeer and ISB:
The ISB debuff is called Shadow Vulnerability. Shadow Priest's talent Shadow Weaving (which increases damage by 10%) is also called Shadow Vulnerability. To make matters even more confusing, debuffs events are only sent to players who are relatively close to the mob being debuffed. While it is possible to increase the range of damage events, there is no such equivalent for debuff event. This is also why WWS logs are screwy regarding debuffs.

Right now ShadowSeer is, in my opinion, the most reliable way of measuring ISBs, as long as you stay relatively close to your target (which I guess is around 25 yards). Any further than that and ShadowSeer simply doesn't receive the information it needs to be accurate. There are a few workarounds possible, but most of them will require other tradeoffs, and I don't think it is worth it.

Because of this I've decided to stop working on ShadowSeer until Blizzard fixes their mess of a combat system, which is sheduled for 2.4.
#358SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0deneba
Demonology spec question - I am a warlock in a raid that is approaching Leo in SSC where I will be the designated warlock tank. I've been demonology in the past so I am comfortable with the change! I understand that a minimum will be soul-linking with a felhunter. Beyond that, I'm not sure how to go.

I have the Void Star Talisman but only 1/5 T5, though hopefully that changes with Leo getting killed! I've currently spec'd 0/41/20 to keep the felguard out. Why? Well I figured that with my new trinket he'd be more useful in raids, however it really does seem that I need the 2-piece T5 bonus for that to happen. Is it reasonable to say that untli I have this bonus, the felguard isn't too useful in SSC and TK fights if I can't guarantee him support from our healers?

I guess what I'm wondering is whether it would make more sense to be 0/40/21 to get Ruin and stick with that as my "Leo tanking" spec -until- I get a second T5 piece... at which time I could switch back to 0/41/21 and use the felguard in raids more often.

If it helps, I basically only do raids and daily quests.
#359SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
0/40/21 relies on Succubus, don't go there without 2p T5.

My advice: spec Soul Link for learning the fight, and ditch it afterwards. Or get 2p T5 and spec 0/40/21 or x/41/x according to personal taste, that'll allow you to still have Soul Link and offtank.

Or get a druid offtank. It's very viable to have just one tank for Leotheras these days, but two will probably help when learning.
#360SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 frmorrison
Soul link is only helpful for healers learning how to deal with a Warlock tank.


Anyway, I would use 1/41/19 (1 point so corruption is more usable), and keep the Felhunter out for tanking. The 2 Piece is very useful to make FG better, but assuming you had a Ret Pally there is no excuse not to have Judgment of Light up.

GL with the gloves!
#361SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Jimad
Is it permissible for me to post a WWS link of a recent Fathom~Lord kill in this thread? My damage output really seems to have taken a nosedive over the past few weeks, and I am truly lost as to why. I'd really like to have a little analysis done on my performance. This "condition" has gotten bad enough to where I am on the verge of voluntarily giving up my raid spot, although I certainly don't want this to happen. I trust the warlock community on EJ, and would really like some guidance.

If this is not the appropriate thread for this, where might I go?
#362SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
WWS for evaluating performance...

Once you already show your gear (via armory etc) I don't really see much use in WWS compared to a video. I mean while WWS can help you improve your DPS since we can compare what you did to what other people did, and for example tell you you weren't casting enough, but nobody can tell you when you weren't casting when you should have or anything like that.
I think a video should show enough of how you screw up, as it easily shows unnescessary DPS downtimes, slow target switching, messing up DoTs (assuming proper addons are being used) etc, which are very hard to impossible to see on WWS.
I don't know why noone came up with it before, I suppose making and uploading it is a big deal but it's really the only way to help someone do more dps other than telling him "you're not casting enough shadowbolts" or "work on your gear" or "your DoTs are falling off", which he should be able to see by himself after reading these threads...

Note this isn't specific to the above poster but rather to everyone trying to get their DPS improved by posting here...
#363SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Cohren
A WWS won't necessarily show whats wrong. Two changes came with 2.3 that will have an affect on your DPS in relationship to others. The first being the coefficient fix for Mages and the second being the removal of the need for /stop casting macros. I know the second one seems kind of silly as all casters should of been using them but trust me, there was a mage in my guild who has been there since the start who never used them and rarely finished in the top 10 on DPS and now with both of those changes and no gear improvements, gets in the top 5 consistently.

I see that your Affliction, has there been a recent change in your raid composition? Addition of another Affliction lock? S Priest? Evaluate any new class additions and see if they are eating up debuff slots. Also get Forte Warlock because I don't think DoTimer shows when your DoT's get knocked off because your over the 40 slot limit. \

Did your Hunters respec Beast Mastery? Has it been a long while since you got loot but others have gotten things recently?
#364SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kobal
Originally Posted by Anyakfe View Post
Originally Posted by Kobal View Post
One thing that is not mentioned at all in the compendium yet, and which maybe is worth mentioning: If your crit increases, you improve not only your own DPS, but also the DPS of your fellow warlocks and shadow priests in the raid via increasing ISB uptime.

Since I wanted to have numbers that are at least a little more precise than handwaving, I tried to include an estimate of the Raid DPS gain via my contribution to ISB-Uptime into my own spreadsheet. While it is not 100% precise, the estimate is not that bad either.

And the results (0/21/40 spec here) were more or less what I expected: For individual DPS, yes, critrating hovers somewhere between 0,8 and 0,9 spelldamage, but for raid DPS it jumps up to between 1,1 and 1,3 spelldamage, of course heavily dependent of the number (and spec) of the other warlocks and shadow priests in the raid.
I'm really interrested by that. Could you please share what you have added to the spreadsheet ?
It would be very interesting to calculate the relative stats coeff based on the raid composition intead of the personal dps impact.
Sorry for the late response, but if you are interested...

I basically pieced together my own spreadsheet from various other spreadsheets floating around these forums, and then went on to refine it. It is far from finished, but the current version can be found here.
#365SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bandoer
Modeling ISB -

Here is how I model ISB: I count every crit that I do as an additional X damage attributable to me in raid. If each of the charges is eaten up by a 2.5k direct damage spell that is 2000 extra damage. Factors that increase this number is dot ticks. Factors that decrease this are overlapping ISB procs.

If charge 1 or charge 2 is eaten by a shadowbolt crit, you "lose" some backend charges. If Charge #1 is eaten by a Ruin crit, you lose the effect of charge #3 and #4. The damage you would have gotten from Charge #2 is made up for by the fact that #1 was a crit.

So,
Charge 1 getting eaten by a SB crit is a "loss" of 2 charges.
Charge 2 equals loss a of 1 charge
Charge 3 is a wash
Charge 4 is a gain of 1 charge

My fudge factoring says to equal out the dot ticks and the loss of charges. It is a huge fudge factor I won't dispute that. Of course I post this to see if this approach could be refined.

This modeling is obviously not perfect but what it is does give me is a number for comparing a crit rating against other stats. If I do 3k shadowbolts in raid and damage attibutable to ISB is 2500, that makes 1 crit rating pretty much on par with 1 hit rating.

btw - SM/Ruin (40/0/21) is not listed as one of the viable raid specs and I much prefer it to UA with over say 22% crit.
#366SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Cronjob
Originally Posted by deneba View Post
Demonology spec question - I am a warlock in a raid that is approaching Leo in SSC where I will be the designated warlock tank. I've been demonology in the past so I am comfortable with the change! I understand that a minimum will be soul-linking with a felhunter. Beyond that, I'm not sure how to go.

I have the Void Star Talisman but only 1/5 T5, though hopefully that changes with Leo getting killed! I've currently spec'd 0/41/20 to keep the felguard out. Why? Well I figured that with my new trinket he'd be more useful in raids, however it really does seem that I need the 2-piece T5 bonus for that to happen. Is it reasonable to say that untli I have this bonus, the felguard isn't too useful in SSC and TK fights if I can't guarantee him support from our healers?

I guess what I'm wondering is whether it would make more sense to be 0/40/21 to get Ruin and stick with that as my "Leo tanking" spec -until- I get a second T5 piece... at which time I could switch back to 0/41/21 and use the felguard in raids more often.

If it helps, I basically only do raids and daily quests.

If you are gonna run an FG raiding spec try this one..

07/44/10 - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I run this from time to time I dont have 2 piece but do have voidstar and I sometimes get into a Shadow sissy group which keeps the pet up for sure. There is a lot of pet management invovled but for some fights, especially now that the pet will make an effort to stand behind the target really does shine if you manage the pet correctly.

For me the biggest headache it not getting the pet healed but getting him buffed. I have to beg for buffs sometimes although lately it has been better especially since we have two a max of 2 FG locks (self included) so I think they are getting used to it. At first it was horrible and not having him buffed does hurt dps.
#367SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Xelopheris
Originally Posted by Bandoer View Post
btw - SM/Ruin (40/0/21) is not listed as one of the viable raid specs and I much prefer it to UA with over say 22% crit.
40/0/21 only becomes viable after hitcapping and getting a decent amount of crit. But when you do reach that point, 0/21/40 also becomes not only viable, but a better spec than 40/0/21. All you gain from 40/0/21 is instant corruption, improved lifetap, and shadow mastery (as far as raiding goes). 0/21/40 gets 5% more shadow damage, bigger SB coefficient, more crit, improved fel armor, and you can fit in improved healthstones.
#368SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bandoer
Originally Posted by Xelopheris View Post
40/0/21 only becomes viable after hitcapping and getting a decent amount of crit. But when you do reach that point, 0/21/40 also becomes not only viable, but a better spec than 40/0/21. All you gain from 40/0/21 is instant corruption, improved lifetap, and shadow mastery (as far as raiding goes). 0/21/40 gets 5% more shadow damage, bigger SB coefficient, more crit, improved fel armor, and you can fit in improved healthstones.
I only mentioned it because there's stuff like fire specs and whatnot on the compendium. I don't really see 0/21/40 doing significantly better than other specs in the high dps parses on WWS and you lose Shadow Embrace, Imp, and Malediction. 39/1/21 is fine too for the odd healthstone.
#369SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rochan
Originally Posted by Jimad View Post
Is it permissible for me to post a WWS link of a recent Fathom~Lord kill in this thread? My damage output really seems to have taken a nosedive over the past few weeks, and I am truly lost as to why. I'd really like to have a little analysis done on my performance. This "condition" has gotten bad enough to where I am on the verge of voluntarily giving up my raid spot, although I certainly don't want this to happen. I trust the warlock community on EJ, and would really like some guidance.

If this is not the appropriate thread for this, where might I go?
Maybe you forgot to take off your FR gear
#370SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rochan
Originally Posted by Xelopheris View Post
40/0/21 only becomes viable after hitcapping and getting a decent amount of crit. But when you do reach that point, 0/21/40 also becomes not only viable, but a better spec than 40/0/21. All you gain from 40/0/21 is instant corruption, improved lifetap, and shadow mastery (as far as raiding goes). 0/21/40 gets 5% more shadow damage, bigger SB coefficient, more crit, improved fel armor, and you can fit in improved healthstones.
You're forgetting other things that 40/0/21 brings like Shadow Embrace, Malediction, Siphon Life, CoEX, Imp HoT, extra range on both trees. You can even fit in an Imp HS if you skip Imp Howl. It's an excellent build really, suited for people who don't want to watch as many DoT timers, plus it has more ISB uptime than a UA build.

Honestly if I was forced to be malediction bitch, I'd choose 40/0/21 over 41/0/20.
#371SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0hellenkeller
A few quick questions. My guild is currently 5/5 Hyjal and 5/9 BT, yet I get the feeling our warlocks are specced improperly or just do poor dps. In comparing our guilds' WWSes with other guilds at similar progression levels, our warlock dps seems notably behind the other warlocks in those other guilds. I spoke with them today to figure some of it out. 2 of the 3 active raiders are now destro because I kept telling them affliction sucks, and the last one is still affliction. The destros saw an immediate jump in DPS.

We bring 3 locks per night, and two shadow priests. CoE, CoR, and CoS are applied. Should our affliction lock have Malediction? he says it will hurt his personal dps to spec it.

I assume the "ideal" raid setup is 2 destros and an afflict with malediction, am I wrong? Can any BT clear warlocks comment on this?
#372SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
I think all those people just starting raiding and seeing a DPS jump when they switch to destruction isn't becuase it's a better spec, especially not for them and their gear level, but rather that they're incapable of putting up dots in the appropriate times while shadowbolt spam is simple enough for them...
#373SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0hellenkeller
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
I think all those people just starting raiding and seeing a DPS jump when they switch to destruction isn't becuase it's a better spec, especially not for them and their gear level, but rather that they're incapable of putting up dots in the appropriate times while shadowbolt spam is simple enough for them...
If a guild doing Essence of Souls third phase needs to maximize their DPS, and brings three warlocks to the raid, should the one affliction lock have malediction? And should the other two be destro? What is ideal for this specific scenario? (3 locks, 2 spriests, CoS CoE CoR on boss)
#374SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pentamorfi
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
You're forgetting other things that 40/0/21 brings like Shadow Embrace, Malediction, Siphon Life, CoEX, Imp HoT, extra range on both trees. You can even fit in an Imp HS if you skip Imp Howl. It's an excellent build really, suited for people who don't want to watch as many DoT timers, plus it has more ISB uptime than a UA build.

.
No, it doesn't. It has bigger crits, you don't crit more often than you would with a 41/0/20 build. Unless you mean saving time from UA casts for shadowbolt casts instead, which could easily lead to even less uptime if you don't crit.
#375SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pentamorfi
Originally Posted by hellenkeller View Post
A few quick questions. My guild is currently 5/5 Hyjal and 5/9 BT, yet I get the feeling our warlocks are specced improperly or just do poor dps. In comparing our guilds' WWSes with other guilds at similar progression levels, our warlock dps seems notably behind the other warlocks in those other guilds. I spoke with them today to figure some of it out. 2 of the 3 active raiders are now destro because I kept telling them affliction sucks, and the last one is still affliction. The destros saw an immediate jump in DPS.

We bring 3 locks per night, and two shadow priests. CoE, CoR, and CoS are applied. Should our affliction lock have Malediction? he says it will hurt his personal dps to spec it.

I assume the "ideal" raid setup is 2 destros and an afflict with malediction, am I wrong? Can any BT clear warlocks comment on this?
Ideally, yes. Your affliction lock should realise he's there to provide raid support rather than personal DPS. Also, you can spec for Malediction and take all DPS enhancing talents, you don't really lose any personal DPS - in fact, if you only apply the 3 curses you mention, his DPS will go up by 3%.
#376SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
rochan
Originally Posted by Pentamorfi View Post
No, it doesn't. It has bigger crits, you don't crit more often than you would with a 41/0/20 build. Unless you mean saving time from UA casts for shadowbolt casts instead, which could easily lead to even less uptime if you don't crit.
You cast more SB so you crit more. It will only have 3% less crit than a 0/21/40 spec. It's a really good build to stack crit. So you can be the 3-in-1 Shadow embrace, malediction, and ISB bitch. Also it gets a bigger boost from 4/5 T6 and takes less debuff slots. IMO a UA build has no place in end game raiding.

Last edited by rochan : 11/19/07 at 6:00 PM.
#377SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Arelenda
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
You're forgetting other things that 40/0/21 brings like Shadow Embrace, Malediction, Siphon Life, CoEX, Imp HoT, extra range on both trees. You can even fit in an Imp HS if you skip Imp Howl. It's an excellent build really, suited for people who don't want to watch as many DoT timers, plus it has more ISB uptime than a UA build.

Honestly if I was forced to be malediction bitch, I'd choose 40/0/21 over 41/0/20.
The Ruin build wasn't included because everyone that specced it told me that the UA one outdamages it.

After taking analyzing it a bit I have to admit I see no reason for this to be true. It depends on gear levels. I'll add it to the Compendium.

Last edited by Arelenda : 11/19/07 at 7:06 PM.
#378SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tullut
I have now specced 0/21/40 on my warlock, got 1059 shadow spell dmg unbuffed, 136 spell hit and about 16% crit (21% incl. devastate). I was planning on staying this build for pve as I enjoy to see some crits, but was wondering:
Is it worth it to get some of the spell haste gear from heroic vendor, and using it unless I got alot of other spell haste items? I have off-h atm, and was planning on continuing with bracers next. Unfortunately the off-h is the only spell haste item I got :p
#379SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by hellenkeller View Post
A few quick questions. My guild is currently 5/5 Hyjal and 5/9 BT, yet I get the feeling our warlocks are specced improperly or just do poor dps. In comparing our guilds' WWSes with other guilds at similar progression levels, our warlock dps seems notably behind the other warlocks in those other guilds. I spoke with them today to figure some of it out. 2 of the 3 active raiders are now destro because I kept telling them affliction sucks, and the last one is still affliction. The destros saw an immediate jump in DPS.

We bring 3 locks per night, and two shadow priests. CoE, CoR, and CoS are applied. Should our affliction lock have Malediction? he says it will hurt his personal dps to spec it.

I assume the "ideal" raid setup is 2 destros and an afflict with malediction, am I wrong? Can any BT clear warlocks comment on this?
As listed in the Compendium, Malediction is 2.73% extra damage for each shadow user.

With 5 shadow users, that's the equivalent of 13.6% of the average shadow user dps, for three talent points, or roughly the equivalent of 70-80 spellpower per point.

For comparison, Fel Aegis gives 10 spellpower per talent point, and most people consider that one decent.


Yes, at your progression, the only reason I'd want an affliction warlock over another spec is for raid support.
#380SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Palahniuk
Originally Posted by hellenkeller View Post
A few quick questions. My guild is currently 5/5 Hyjal and 5/9 BT, yet I get the feeling our warlocks are specced improperly or just do poor dps. In comparing our guilds' WWSes with other guilds at similar progression levels, our warlock dps seems notably behind the other warlocks in those other guilds. I spoke with them today to figure some of it out. 2 of the 3 active raiders are now destro because I kept telling them affliction sucks, and the last one is still affliction. The destros saw an immediate jump in DPS.

We bring 3 locks per night, and two shadow priests. CoE, CoR, and CoS are applied. Should our affliction lock have Malediction? he says it will hurt his personal dps to spec it.

I assume the "ideal" raid setup is 2 destros and an afflict with malediction, am I wrong? Can any BT clear warlocks comment on this?
At least one lock in every raid should have malediction. It's non-negotiable in my opinion. There is absolutely no reason it would hurt his personal dps if you're already casting all three curses-- if anything, it would help his dps by something like 2.5-3%.

I think this notion that "affliction sucks" is rather mistaken as well. I feel that affliction shines in BT/Hyjal-- that threat reduction helps a lot on all the aoeing that must be done if nothing else. I've seen plenty of affliction locks that do very comparable if not better dps than destruction locks. It all depends on the fight. Destro will shine on "stand still and nuke" fights (TG, for instance), and affliction will win by a mile on fights which require dpsing multiple mobs or significant mobility (Archimonde).

That being said, I personally raid as 0/21/40 and am in a 5/5, 6/9 guild, so we're roughly equivalent progression wise. We run two affliction and two destruction locks.
#381SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gumibear
Originally Posted by hellenkeller View Post
If a guild doing Essence of Souls third phase needs to maximize their DPS, and brings three warlocks to the raid, should the one affliction lock have malediction? And should the other two be destro? What is ideal for this specific scenario? (3 locks, 2 spriests, CoS CoE CoR on boss)
You want 1 malediction Warlock per raid. Too many people in the average raid will benefit from it to skip it.

You don't really want to decide your warlocks' specs on a per-fight basis unless you want to send them to respec several times per raid. I've performed my best on about half of the tier 6 bosses, including Reliquary of Souls, as a Felguard spec. My personal best Archimonde showing was as Affliction.

Really, any spec for your Warlocks beyond the 1st one is fine as long as it uses Shadowbolt often enough with a reasonable crit rate for good ISB uptime. Find out what your Warlocks are good at playing as and adjust from there.
#382SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Monet138
I have done some testing and have found that the best casting sequence during a boss fight that works for me is:

Immolate, Corruption, UA, CoA, SL

Occasionally a couple of them will end at the same time but it doesn't seem to happen often. While those dots are up I either SB or DP/LT as necessary. Under ideal conditions my sequence is usually something like:

Imm, Corr, UA, CoA, SL, SB, SB, SB, Imm, LT, LT, Corr, UA, SB, SB, CoA, Imm, SB, SL, LT, Corr, UA, SB, LT, LT, Imm

For trash mobs I usually skip Immolate and CoA and adjust accordingly. This usually nets me a very high position on the DM (top 3), especially after boss fights.
#383SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tullut
My casting sequence goes like this when I am am affliction: CoA, UA + Corr, Immolate and Siphon Life. Shadow bolt spam untill redot. It have always worked out good and all dots will be up at the same time
#384SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0DamnDirtyApe
Affliction cast rotation

Immolate has a shorter cast time than UA and corruption by 3 seconds. If you refresh UA and corruption at the same time, then immediately afterwards cast Immolate, they will all expire at the same time. When this happens, Immolate should be refreshed first. This allows immolate to roll through UA and corruption, rather than being constantly pushed back by UA and corruption, losing more dps by turning Immolate into an 18 second duration. A timeline would be something like this:

Time: spellcast
0: begin casting UA
1.5: UA completes cast, cast corruption
3: Begin casting Immolate
4.5: Immolate completes cast
6-18: cast siphon life/shadow bolt as necessary
18: begin casting Immolate to allow it to roll through
19.5: all 3 dots expire at the same time, immolate is refreshed immediately. Begin casting UA
21: UA and corruption applied

Alternatively if UA and Corruption were refreshed first:

18: begin casting UA
19.5: all 3 dots expire at the same time, UA and corruption refreshed
21: begin casting Immolate
22.5: Immolate refreshed
this sequence is repeated every 18 seconds


The sequence at 18-21 seconds in the first timeline should only happen once every 90 seconds if you refresh immolate first. You lose 1.5 seconds of corruption and UA time (half a tick for each) every 90 seconds versus the alternative of losing 3 seconds of immolate every 18 seconds.
#385SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0medivh_icy
Hybrid++

Has anyone tried 30/21/10 build?

On paper it sounds pretty good, +10% from SM, Empowered Corruption, +15% from sacced succy, imp SB and bane, but just curious if someone has actually tried it and what they think? (Sorry if its already posted. I looked but didn't find anything).

BTW I have around 1200 SD, +9% hit and +9% crit

My Build

Thanks!
#386SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Trickykid
Originally Posted by medivh_icy View Post
Has anyone tried 30/21/10 build?
...
(Sorry if its already posted. I looked but didn't find anything).
Didn't look in this thread, did you? You might try reading post #78 through post #142.
#387SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0medivh_icy
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
Didn't look in this thread, did you? You might try reading post #78 through post #142.
Sorry for not finding the posts and thanks for pointing me to them. I am surprised at the hostility towards this build I have not tried it and do agree that its less raid utility than Affliction (imp/malediction) or Destruction build (ISB). However, this what I see as weak points of other builds:

41/0/15 + 5 -> My build uptil 2 weeks ago. This is a very powerful build. TThe main downside of this is debuff cap and watching all the different dots. Main reasons I left was to seek out something new and hopefully more powerful

0/21/40 -> Fights where you have to move a lot (like VR and Mag), your dps time is much lower which in turn effects your total damage output

7/41/11+2 -> My current build. However, since I don't have 2 T5 pieces, I find it hard to keep my pet alive. Moreover, life tap creates extra pressure on healers (or I have to rely on a SP)

My hope with 30/10/21 is to correct the weaknesses of the other builds. Compared to:

41/0/15+5 it will have:
-5% crit
-No malediction
-No Dark Pact
-No Imp Buff
-No UA (compensated somewhat by SB)
+15% Shadow damage


7/41/11+2
-5% crit
-15% damage from FG
-FG damage
-No Soullink (although this is not very viable in pvp without 2 set bonus)
+siphon life (for mana regen)
+10% damage from SM
+15% damage from sacced succy
+ Empowered corruption

0/21/40
The main thing it will gain here is powerful dots for mobility fights.

Maybe it won't work out...and I will waste 30g, but I guess its worth trying.
#388SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Trickykid
Originally Posted by medivh_icy View Post
I have not tried it and do agree that its less raid utility than Affliction (imp/malediction) or Destruction build (ISB). However, this what I see as weak points of other builds:
...
My hope with 30/10/21 is to correct the weaknesses of the other builds.
...
Maybe it won't work out...and I will waste 30g, but I guess its worth trying.
I think the previous posts cover the pros and cons compared to other builds, but nothing is stopping you from trying it out. I'm not sure how much more discussion it needs considering how repetitive (and cyclical) the one earlier in this thread was.
#389SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
galzohar
Originally Posted by DamnDirtyApe View Post
Immolate has a shorter cast time than UA and corruption by 3 seconds. If you refresh UA and corruption at the same time, then immediately afterwards cast Immolate, they will all expire at the same time. When this happens, Immolate should be refreshed first. This allows immolate to roll through UA and corruption, rather than being constantly pushed back by UA and corruption, losing more dps by turning Immolate into an 18 second duration. A timeline would be something like this:

Time: spellcast
0: begin casting UA
1.5: UA completes cast, cast corruption
3: Begin casting Immolate
4.5: Immolate completes cast
6-18: cast siphon life/shadow bolt as necessary
18: begin casting Immolate to allow it to roll through
19.5: all 3 dots expire at the same time, immolate is refreshed immediately. Begin casting UA
21: UA and corruption applied

Alternatively if UA and Corruption were refreshed first:

18: begin casting UA
19.5: all 3 dots expire at the same time, UA and corruption refreshed
21: begin casting Immolate
22.5: Immolate refreshed
this sequence is repeated every 18 seconds


The sequence at 18-21 seconds in the first timeline should only happen once every 90 seconds if you refresh immolate first. You lose 1.5 seconds of corruption and UA time (half a tick for each) every 90 seconds versus the alternative of losing 3 seconds of immolate every 18 seconds.
I think you would be better off casting immolate 1.5-3s earlier every 90s (assuming your 90s is correct) and cast UA and corruption on time, thus losing an immolate tick instead of 1.5s of both corruption and and UA which are obviously more damage than 1 immolate tick or else everyone would have immolate top priory and maybe even spec fire destruction... The thing is this requires immolate to be higher DPCT than shadowbolt even with the last tick lost, as if it isn't the immolate that was cast before wasn't worth casting, which means you may be better off in this case (where immolate -1 tick is less DPCT than shadowbolt) just not casting that one immolate that'll end at the same time as UA+corruption and just skip it and start your immolate cycle so your immolate finishes casting right as you should start cating UA.

So the rotation would either be:
UA+corruption immolate spam SB immolate(early) UA+corruption(on time)
OR
UA+corruption spam SB immolate UA+corruption(on time)

And afterwards obviously refresh immolate on time as it shouldn't interrupt with your UA+corruption casts.

These "rotations" should be more DPS than what you suggested and more DPS than the standard UA+corruption+immolate spam SB repeat, and the one chosen depends if immolate lacking the last tick is more or less DPCT than shadowbolt.

Of course I wasn't taking into account the fact shadowbolt isn't exactly a channeled spell that ticks every 0.5s... So that also needs to be somewhat taken into account and possibly making slight adjustments to those "rotations", although they still seem better than what was suggested in the quote.

EDIT: While they are more DPS they should only be used if the quoted "rotation" is actually more DPS than the standard UA+corruption immolate spam SB, which really depends what your immolate VS UA/corruption DPS.

Last edited by galzohar : 11/20/07 at 8:30 PM.
#390SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 frmorrison
With the changes to Ret Pally and Mage and the recent addition of another shadow priest, now there are debuff issues in my guild. I had to drop Immolate (currently UA build)

With my gear, 40/0/21 from the spreadsheet is only 10 dps less than 41/0/20, plus you use one less debuff slot.
#391SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Sardaukar
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
With the changes to Ret Pally and Mage and the recent addition of another shadow priest, now there are debuff issues in my guild. I had to drop Immolate (currently UA build)

With my gear, 40/0/21 from the spreadsheet is only 10 dps less than 41/0/20, plus you use one less debuff slot.
Maybe I'm stating the obvious here but why don't you just go DS/SnF?
#392SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Scud121
I took a look at the "Haste" thread, but can't seem to find an answer, many apologies if its in there. Does +haste work on the untalented cast time of the spell?

eg - with 25% Haste (I know, but easy to demonstrate), a Rank 11 Shadowbolt (untalented) casts in 2.25 seconds. However, if you have Bane Rank5, does this drop it to 1.75 Second ((3*0.75)-0.5) or to 1.87 ((3-0.5)*.75).

I realise with the new Blizz latency checks of doom, this isn't so important, but I'm still curious - would it also do the same for corruption? as it makes Imp corruption a 4/5 pointer.
#393SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0lurirax
What would really make this guild uber nice would be if somebody would compile a list with the best gear for the different speccs. Perhaps listing the 3 best item for each slot.
#394SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Stangg
Originally Posted by lurirax View Post
What would really make this guild uber nice would be if somebody would compile a list with the best gear for the different speccs. Perhaps listing the 3 best item for each slot.
lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character

This is a good tool for finding which items would be best for specific slots, I think it's hard to give a list of the best items because it depends what is in the other slots. So using a tool like the one linked allows the user to weight the values that they need for a specific slot depending on current gear level.
#395SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Scud121 View Post
I took a look at the "Haste" thread, but can't seem to find an answer, many apologies if its in there. Does +haste work on the untalented cast time of the spell?

eg - with 25% Haste (I know, but easy to demonstrate), a Rank 11 Shadowbolt (untalented) casts in 2.25 seconds. However, if you have Bane Rank5, does this drop it to 1.75 Second ((3*0.75)-0.5) or to 1.87 ((3-0.5)*.75).

I realise with the new Blizz latency checks of doom, this isn't so important, but I'm still curious - would it also do the same for corruption? as it makes Imp corruption a 4/5 pointer.
It's talented cast time (although Paladins get a 0.5 cast time bonus after casting Holy Light which doesn't count towards it).

So 10% haste off a 3s second Shadow Bolt that's talented to become 2.5s makes it 2.25s instead. (= (3-0.5) * 0.9)

It's a 20% difference, so pretty important. Updating the compendium.
#396SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kobal
Originally Posted by Sardaukar View Post
Maybe I'm stating the obvious here but why don't you just go DS/SnF?
As has been stated previously in this thread, because 40/0/21 offers all the valuable Raid Debuffs (Malediction, Shadow Embrace) that 41/0/20 brings and 0/21/40 does not.
#397SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Akj
T5 4 pc bonus

I won the T5 robe off Kael tonight and was in a dilemma whether to use the gloves for the 4 piece bonus or the studious wraps for raw damage. I did some testing with the 4 pc bonus on Dr.Boom and observed the following.

Casting shadowbolt & immediately following it up with corruption (before sb lands) results in the 1st tick receiving the 10% bonus.

With 1389 shadow dmg unbuffed (6/44/11 spec) each tick of corruption did 404 dmg without any shadowbolt casts (2424 dmg total).

Using the shadowbolt, corruption, shadowbolt, shadowbolt, shadowbolt, shadowbolt shadowbolt cycle resulted in ticks of
421, 439, 459, 481, 505, 532 (2837 dmg total).

A 400ish net dmg increase with no debuffs every 18s does not seem that bad overall. Has anyone else tested this extensively in a raid setting? Is it worthwhile to drop immolate from the rotation to maximize the sb casts?
#398SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Demonpyro
I have a couple of questions about FR tanking Leotheris. First of all with stackable buffs and FR. If i have 166 fr from gear, +70 from FR aura, +35 from flask of chromatic woners, +25 from GoTW, and 70 from master demonologist by having the felhunter out...does all of this stack just fine with each other. This gives 366 which i believe is max

The other question...does chaos blast proc nether protection. i have seen conflicting reports.
#399SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arveene
Originally Posted by lurirax View Post
What would really make this guild uber nice would be if somebody would compile a list with the best gear for the different speccs. Perhaps listing the 3 best item for each slot.
In addition to using lootzor, it may be a good idea to download the dps spreadsheet, enter the relevant info (spec, damage, hit, crit, etc.) and then use the gear spreadsheet also linked in the same thread where you enter the dps values of hit/crit/damage/haste and it'll do a comparison for you.
#400SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rahlar
Originally Posted by Demonpyro View Post
I have a couple of questions about FR tanking Leotheris. First of all with stackable buffs and FR. If i have 166 fr from gear, +70 from FR aura, +35 from flask of chromatic woners, +25 from GoTW, and 70 from master demonologist by having the felhunter out...does all of this stack just fine with each other. This gives 366 which i believe is max

The other question...does chaos blast proc nether protection. i have seen conflicting reports.
Gift of the Wild does not stack with FR aura or totems (and totems don't stack with auras either), so you'd be ~35 FR short. And yes, his blast does proc NP and it will cause him to behave strangely (attack other people and whatnot).
#401SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Rahlar View Post
Gift of the Wild does not stack with FR aura or totems (and totems don't stack with auras either), so you'd be ~35 FR short. And yes, his blast does proc NP and it will cause him to behave strangely (attack other people and whatnot).

Nether protection proccing off Illidan?

I'm positive it didn't do this in 2.2 and before. Are you 100% sure it got changed in 2.3?

Leotheras was an exception, as far as I know. Capernian does proc it. So does Illidan. They choose new targets.
#402SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Morwen
Originally Posted by Demonpyro View Post
First of all with stackable buffs and FR. If i have 166 fr from gear, +70 from FR aura, +35 from flask of chromatic woners, +25 from GoTW, and 70 from master demonologist by having the felhunter out...does all of this stack just fine with each other.
Last I checked, resistance from Gift of the Wild / FR aura / FR totems / imp's Fire Shield do not stack with each other, only the highest value out of those will take effect (so you get a max of +70 from those). Gear, flasks, and Master Demonologist buffs do stack on top of everything else.

Fire Shield's +39 (talented) is typically overlooked though, it's slightly better than GotW when you can't get the more powerful auras or you need concentration aura instead.

Last edited by Morwen : 11/21/07 at 6:23 PM.
#403SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Nether protection proccing off Illidan?

Leotheras was an exception, as far as I know. Capernian does proc it. So does Illidan. They choose new targets.
Capernian will 100% find a new target with NP up, and a few people have posted here or the other thread saying Illidan will act the same.
#404SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nas
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Capernian will 100% find a new target with NP up, and a few people have posted here or the other thread saying Illidan will act the same.
From my experience Capernian would just attempt to melee you if NP procs, and will only start casting again when either you /cancelaura or it runs out. But yeah, same effect, not really tankable with nether protection.
#405SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0richard
Originally Posted by Nas View Post
From my experience Capernian would just attempt to melee you if NP procs, and will only start casting again when either you /cancelaura or it runs out. But yeah, same effect, not really tankable with nether protection.
/cancelaura Nether Protection
/cast Searing Pain

and then you spam it. 99% safe!
#406SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0DaveA50
I have tanked Capernian with nether protection, and although it was quiet a while ago, all she did was attempt to melee me when it procced.
#407SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nas
Originally Posted by richard View Post
/cancelaura Nether Protection
/cast Searing Pain

and then you spam it. 99% safe!
That is what I did, nowhere near 99% safe. Not sure if it was the fact that I have higher than "normal" latency (400-500), but I pretty much got close to being melee'd on each of the three attempts and had to go and respec out of it.
#408SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bokkie
Originally Posted by DaveA50 View Post
I have tanked Capernian with nether protection, and although it was quiet a while ago, all she did was attempt to melee me when it procced.
Whenever I tanked Capernian and Nether Protection procced, she also did a Arcane blast/Arcane Explosion with a knockback.

I used the macro mentioned here but found that when the global cooldown was there it would not perform the cancelaura when bashed.

Also tried putting the cancelaura in it's own macro on a different button, since it doesn't trigger the global cooldown so you can spam it while casting searing pain. This worked better but is still not 100% so I still recommend speccing out of it if you are the designated tank and don't have farm status yet.
#409SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0deneba
Thanks for the earlier advice about felguard raiding. I switched to 0/40/21 which I think will be a nice warlock tank spec for someone who doesn't have the 2-piece T5 bonus yet. At least I hope!

Another question - there is a new offhand available for 35 badges of justice. Fetch of the Primal Gods - Fetish of the Primal Gods - Items - World of Warcraft - versus the orb of the souleater, it trades 51 shadow damage for 37 damage, but gains stamina, int and 17 spell haste. I'm trying to decide, for what specs might one or the other be better? I currently have orb of the souleater and am wondering if I should put this offhand on my list of things to get.
#410SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
The real question about NP is, when will it screw you over? Since it only procs on a hit, if the boss only starts cating the next spell after you're hit (assuming NPCs don't cancel spells unless forced to such as when target is out of range or LOS), it'll always see your NP and not cast at you because you're immune. If however he starts casting before the last spell hit you, you have time until he finishes that cast to cancel NP. So it really depends on how the boss' attack actually works.
#411SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Bokkie
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
The real question about NP is, when will it screw you over? Since it only procs on a hit, if the boss only starts cating the next spell after you're hit (assuming NPCs don't cancel spells unless forced to such as when target is out of range or LOS), it'll always see your NP and not cast at you because you're immune. If however he starts casting before the last spell hit you, you have time until he finishes that cast to cancel NP. So it really depends on how the boss' attack actually works.
We don't do Tempest keep anymore so I can't test it with Capernian.

What I noticed when playing around with my macro's is that she would keep casting on me unless one of her spells actually hits on you as immune. So when she 'noticed' that I was immune, she would move in for a melee/arcane blast/explosion (without canceling her spell) and then go back to her fireball routine after that one attack.

edit:
Without canceling her spell, meaning she'd finish her cast and then move in for a different attack

Last edited by Bokkie : 11/23/07 at 7:46 AM.
#412SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krazen
I have a question about refreshing dots:

In theory, without latency, casting the UA > Corr combo with exactly 1.5 seconds remaining on the dots reapplies then right after the last tick. However, when I actually tried to do this, I occasionally overwrote the dot before the last tick, which is obviously a loss of 3 seconds. By contrast, playing it a bit safe and casting UA with 1 second remaining removes this problem, but you guarantee a loss of .5-1 second of the dot. This is what I've been doing.

I ask this because I occasionally see players with close to perfect DoT rotations (ie 98 ticks out of a possible 100 in 5 mins of combat time). However, I looked over my latest parse on Gruul (7 min 40 second fight, in theory 153 dot ticks), and the best I managed was 130 ticks on Siphon Life with the remainder in the 120s. I guess there is a bit of movement and other factors in this particular fight, but I feel I should be doing better in the 90% range.
#413SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Valgasha
Raid Gearing Advice

First of all, my thanks to the OP for this excellent guide. As a newcomer to post-TBC raiding, it has done a lot to catch me up to the current state of Warlocks.

I'm an veteran of the pre-TBC raiding looking to come out of retirement. After playing other characters casually for the months and taking a few long breaks from the game since the expansions release, I made it to 70 on Valgasha a short time ago.

Here is a link to his armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

I have updated my gear as expediently and efficiently as possible, and looking for advice as to how to advance further. I am interested in solid raiding statistics, and am already hitcapped. I am not interested in remaining Affliction for any longer than is necessary, and would prefer to build toward 0/21/40 ASAP, having played 9/21/21 during the glory days.

In addition to general advice and suggestions, I have a few specific questions:

1) I have a fair stock of Heroic Badges. Should I spend these on the Icon of the Silver Crescent, or keep saving for the new 2.3 items? Scryer's Bloodgem won't be replaced in the near future in all likelihood, so I'm essentially undecided between the Icon's spell damage versus the Gift's spell crit.

2) I have access to a Belt of Blasting, should I want it, but I have considered going for the S3 Vindicator's Silk Belt instead; I am aware that there is a minimum stamina threshold for a lot of TBC raids, and that I am critically beneath it. Tips?

Finally, here is a short list of my current gearing plans, to allow for gaps to be pointed out or mistakes to be corrected:

1) S3 Vindicator's Silk Bracers, likely socketed with +10 Crit Rating.
2) S1 Gladiator's Warstaff, on the assumption that its hit and crit would be more beneficial to me than the pure +dmg of the Spellblade and Heroic Offhand (which I can also acquire). Whichever I get will have Soulfrost immediately.
3) S3 Vindicator's Silk Belt *or* Belt of Blasting.
4) 60 Heroic Badge cloth gloves.
5) Karazhan reputation ring, when it's an upgrade over the good 'ol BoDD.
6) +12 dmg enchants on both rings.

Beyond this, I welcome any further recommendations.

My thanks in advance to any/all who get through this and offer some help!

Last edited by Valgasha : 11/24/07 at 9:43 PM.
#414SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PSGarak
Well, normally "wut do i gaer???" posts get reported and ignored, but normally they're also horribly written pieces of rubish by people with less brain cells than grammatical errors. As such I am so confused that I shall give my input:

While there are some pieces of BWL gear worth holding on to (I am the proud owner of a Neltharion's Tear), I wouldn't say that the ring, and especially the belt, is one of them. If Belt of Blasting is proving hard to come by on your server, the Girdle of Ruination is a cheaper alternative that's a nice piece of work in itself, plus higher stats. For rings, there are things available at exalted Cenarion Expidition and Scryers with as much damage, and more stats. If you're going destro, Seer's Signet - Items - World of Warcraft is a nice upgrade, and not too much work from where you are if you stay affliction until then.

I would say go for the Icon because as your gear improves from raiding you are going to need less and less hit to hit-cap, and you're going to want to have pieces to swap out. The first place it will probably be coming from is the gems in your FSW stuffs, but the Icon is solid and the bloodgem not so much. Your bracers and probably good enough at the moment, I would spend the arena points on the belt, the badges on the gloves and zomg offhandz, and drop for a 15dmg enchant. My personal feeling is that with the S1 gear, 1H + OH is better than the 2H so long as you get a better OH than S1, but your mileage may vary. You don't need the hit right now, except insofar as what you can drop from other slots for it, but the crit... is probably not worth 51 shadow damage =P. Look into the 2.3 OH though. I didn't pay much attention to it for myself as affliction, but with haste it might be an ugprade for destro. If you have badges leftover I would recomend taking a look at the cloaks, followed by the wand.

I noticed that you hit-capped... My personal feeling is that hit-capping is overrated, and hit should be computed in terms of average dps gain just like any other stat, but it usually does end up coming ahead, per itemization point, than the other stats. Dig up Leulier's spreadsheet in the (another)Warlock Spreadsheet thread and play around with it, to see what you get out of gem selection. My instinct is that 15 hit rating is ever so slightly inferior to 20 spell damage on gloves. I also prefer to run with subtlety on cloak on the principle that, while every cloak enchant provides a minimal benefit at best to casters, sublety is the one that actually has any effect at all in most situations.
#415SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0clavarnway
Has anybody had experience with the new badge loot? Any opinions on it?
#416SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Antoine
Well, the gloves are better than t4 or t5 but not t6, the offhand is better than Hydross and equal to Rage if you don't need the hit, the legs aren't as good as t6, and I can't think of any other new badge pve gear.
#417SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0richard
Originally Posted by Antoine View Post
Well, the gloves are better than t4 or t5 but not t6, the offhand is better than Hydross and equal to Rage if you don't need the hit, the legs aren't as good as t6, and I can't think of any other new badge pve gear.
Voodoo-woven Belt is very decent as well, but don't bother if you have belt of blasting or better already.
#418SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Crepe
How is the [Fetish of the Primal Gods] better than [Fathomstone]? The only way I can get it to be better using the spreadsheet and a 0/21/40 spec is to push crit to around 32% (with devastation).

Speaking of haste, has there been any math done WRT ISB uptime and haste vs. crit?
#419SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Trickykid
The effect of haste on ISB uptime depends more on your raid makeup than other stats. Essentially it makes your crit "count" more since your bolts make up a larger share of the nukes hitting the target. So it potentially is worth something if you're the only destro and you have a handful of shadow priests, but for most raids crit will give more to ISB uptime than haste.
#420SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Antoine
Originally Posted by Crepe View Post
How is the [Fetish of the Primal Gods] better than [Fathomstone]? The only way I can get it to be better using the spreadsheet and a 0/21/40 spec is to push crit to around 32% (with devastation).

Speaking of haste, has there been any math done WRT ISB uptime and haste vs. crit?
I'm sorry, I should have clarified that I was speaking for myself. Curiously enough, I am 0/21/40 with around 32% crit. I have no idea how they compare for affliction.
#421SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PSGarak
With affliction you don't need to compare, you get [Orb of the Soul-Eater] with your heroic badges instead =P. Straight-up damage beats haste and crit.
Haste has no effect on personal ISB uptime if you are the only shadow caster until you start getting one more shadowbolt into the 12 seconds. In a raid setting, the formula is 1-(1-x)^4, where x is the weighted-average shadow crit rate for the rate, with the weighting being how often the caster casts shadowbolt. As is intuitive, haste rating changes that weighting.
#422SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 frmorrison
Originally Posted by clavarnway View Post
Has anybody had experience with the new badge loot? Any opinions on it?
The gloves are the second best if you need hit and best in-game if hit capped and ignoring set bonuses.

Having red and blue gems for a +damage socket bonus is so great, basically you get 5-6 stamina for "free".


The new belt is basically a weaker belt of blasting, the badge cloak is better than the Mulgar cloak and the other items aren't so great.



The new trinket is so-so, 47 damage and click of 1750 health that takes away the health gained after 15 seconds; it is decent for Arenas since it works past mortal strike.
#423SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Crepe
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
Haste has no effect on personal ISB uptime if you are the only shadow caster until you start getting one more shadowbolt into the 12 seconds. In a raid setting, the formula is 1-(1-x)^4, where x is the weighted-average shadow crit rate for the rate, with the weighting being how often the caster casts shadowbolt. As is intuitive, haste rating changes that weighting.
Ok, interesting. This being the case, let's suppose we have the following raid:

1 affliction lock, provided CoS w/Malediction, a SB crit rate of 15%, and a SB cast ratio of 0.4
2 destro locks with SB crit rates of 30% and SB cast ratios of 0.85
1 spriest at full burn, casting MB and SWD at every cooldown

Given the your model, we have the following SB uptime:

x = (0.15*0.4 + 0.3*0.85*2 + 0)/4 = (0.06 + 0.51 + 0)/4 = 0.57/4 = 0.1425
uptime = 1 - (1-x)^4 = 1 - 0.8575^4 = 0.459 ~= 46% uptime

Is my execution of the model correct? Is the effect of the spriest properly stated? How would haste compute into the cast ratio? (Note that I'm looking for a general shadow caster formula here because raid composition fluctuates and I like to prepare for different scenarios.)
#424SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Trickykid
Originally Posted by Crepe View Post
Ok, interesting. This being the case, let's suppose we have the following raid:

1 affliction lock, provided CoS w/Malediction, a SB crit rate of 15%, and a SB cast ratio of 0.4
2 destro locks with SB crit rates of 30% and SB cast ratios of 0.85
1 spriest at full burn, casting MB and SWD at every cooldown

Given the your model, we have the following SB uptime:

x = (0.15*0.4 + 0.3*0.85*2 + 0)/4 = (0.06 + 0.51 + 0)/4 = 0.57/4 = 0.1425
uptime = 1 - (1-x)^4 = 1 - 0.8575^4 = 0.459 ~= 46% uptime

Is my execution of the model correct? Is the effect of the spriest properly stated? How would haste compute into the cast ratio? (Note that I'm looking for a general shadow caster formula here because raid composition fluctuates and I like to prepare for different scenarios.)
x is the sum of the products of Crit (use 0 for SP) and %share of shadow nukes (nukes per second compared to raid nukes per second -- use cast_ratio/cast_length). For the sake of simplicity I'll call everyone's SB 2.6s and SP's spells at 1.6s. I'm not sure what the "cast ratio" of a SP in full swing is, but if it's 0.2, in the above you'd have:
x = (0.15 * (0.4/2.6 / (0.4/2.6 + 2*0.85/2.6 + 0.2/1.6)) + 2 * 0.3 * (0.85/2.6 / (0.4/2.6 + 2*0.85/2.6 + 0.2/1.6)) + 0) = 0.235
So, uptime = 1 - (1-x)^4 = 66%

Edit: A generalized form depends upon how many actors you have. Weighted crit is Sumproduct(crit,%share) where %share is (cast_ratio/cast_length) / (sum of all actors' cast_ratio/cast_length).
Edit2: Divided by not multiplied by >.>

Last edited by Trickykid : 11/27/07 at 2:49 PM.
#425SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Konomi
I just downloaded the Lock DPS sheet and I noticed that there is no CoA on the chart, or at least that I can see, there is only CoE. The reason I ask this is because I am currently an Affliction lock and my spell rotation consist of UA>Corr>CoA/CoD(depending on Mob)>SL>SB>SB>LT repeat **watching DoTimer carefully of course**

I was wondering even to a Affliction Lock is it still better in a 10man with me being the only lock to put up CoS/CoE over putting up a CoA to put out the best DPS possible?

Here are my stats unbuffed if it helps any..

Shadow Dmg = 1153
Spell Crit = 10.25%
Spell Hit = 84 (i have 2 points in Suppression) i know i need more hit as well.
Mp5 = 105out / 0in
Penetration = 20

Sorry if this was posted on a thread already I spent sometime looking through and found nothing.
#426SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Sidewalk
Originally Posted by Konomi View Post
I just downloaded the Lock DPS sheet and I noticed that there is no CoA on the chart,
Which spreadsheet? 1.15? F9 and B18

CoE: You only put up CoE if the "extra" damage from the mages would be more then your CoA / CoD damage.

CoS: You only put up CoS if the "extra" damage from the sPriests/Locks would be more then your CoA / CoD damage.
#427SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PSGarak
As far as the spreadsheet goes, if you click on CoE you should get a dropdown menu allowing you to select which curse you are running.

The general wisdom is that if there are two people benefiting from a curse, it's better damage than CoA or CoD. If you have two frost or fire mages, you should run CoE. If you have yourself and another warlock, or shadowpriest, or boomkin, or arcane mage, you should have CoS. If do not have this number of casters (or the number drops below this due to deaths), or if those curses are taken care of, you may or may not want to run CoR, which involves its own barrel of research. In general, CoD > CoA not because of straight damage, but because it costs less global cooldowns to maintain. That is contingent on not getting knocked off, and running to completion; if your raid is tight on debuffs or the boss is low on health switch to CoA.
#428SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Angyarr
On the topic of Nether Protection, I tested it this week and can say now that Illidan for sure switches targets if you are affected by Nether Protection. Of course /cancelaura works, but you still have a gap and the Shadow Blast is high enough damage to 2 shot anyone.
#429SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Fafhrd
To Konomi:

You need 5/5 Supression for best damage since you've ignored +hit gems for epeen +dmg ones.
Add Immolate to your rotation, and Dark Pact.

CoA/D is less damage than:
CoS, if the raid has 2 shadow damage players (unless you do 2000dps yourself)
CoE, if the raid has 2 elemental damage players
CoR, the raid has 3-4 physical damage dealers (most calculations adds ~5-6% to the dps each player, depending on boss armor)

CoR also help your tank maintaining aggro.
The buff part of CoR is negated if someone has 5/5 Improved Demo Shout.

Last edited by Fafhrd : 11/28/07 at 5:27 AM.
#430SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Crepe
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
x is the sum of the products of Crit (use 0 for SP) and %share of shadow nukes (nukes per second compared to raid nukes per second -- use cast_ratio/cast_length). For the sake of simplicity I'll call everyone's SB 2.6s and SP's spells at 1.6s. I'm not sure what the "cast ratio" of a SP in full swing is, but if it's 0.2, in the above you'd have:
x = (0.15 * (0.4/2.6 / (0.4/2.6 + 2*0.85/2.6 + 0.2/1.6)) + 2 * 0.3 * (0.85/2.6 / (0.4/2.6 + 2*0.85/2.6 + 0.2/1.6)) + 0) = 0.235
So, uptime = 1 - (1-x)^4 = 66%

Edit: A generalized form depends upon how many actors you have. Weighted crit is Sumproduct(crit,%share) where %share is (cast_ratio/cast_length) / (sum of all actors' cast_ratio/cast_length).
Edit2: Divided by not multiplied by >.>
Awesome, this is pretty much what I was looking for. I was kinda pulling the shadow priest cast ratio out of my arse, since I didn't see cast frequency as part of the weighted average at first. However, now I see that it's simply a ratio of nukes/s compared to the raid's nukes/s. For a spriest at full burn with maxed out ImpMB, this would mean they're casting 1/5.5 + 1/12 nukes/s (MB and SWD's cooldowns, respectively). That's approximately 0.265 nukes/s with no chance of procing ISB. Thus, our result becomes (expanding out to make it a little more readable):

avg_lag = 100ms = 0.1s
spriest_nps = 1/5.5 + 1/12 = 0.265
affliction_nps = 0.4 * (1/2.6) = 0.154
destro_nps = 0.85 * (1/2.6) = 0.327
raid_nps = affliction_nps + 2*destro_nps + spriest_nps = 1.073 nps

spriest_crit = 0
affliction_crit = 0.15
destro_crit = 0.3

x = affliction_crit * affliction_nps / raid_nps + destro_crit * destro_nps / raid_nps
= (affliction_crit * affliction_nps + destro_crit * destro_nps) / raid_nps
= (0.15 * 0.154 + 2 * 0.3 * 0.327) / 1.073
= 0.219 / 1.073
= 0.204

1 - (1-x)^4 = 1 - 0.4 = 60% uptime
#431SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Trickykid
Yep, that's how I model it -- I know there are some eccentricities about how ISB works, but as far as I can tell this is the safest way to go about it.

For the sake of gear-choice, I leave it in the component parts so that I can map haste rating into the equation more easily. Otherwise you'll need to have another equation for dNPS/dHaste.

Once you assign all of the different actors and their gear (crit and haste), it's relatively easy to get at least an expected increase in ISB uptime per stat point. Then throw in whatever the raid shadow DPS is and you can include that raid-benefit into "the next stat" table.
#432SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gumibear
I'm not sure how big a difference this makes, but 5/5 Improved MB is every 7 seconds. 5.5 seconds to cooldown and then 1.5 to cast once the cooldown is finished. The cooldown doesn't start until the cast finishes.
#433SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Crepe
Originally Posted by Gumibear View Post
I'm not sure how big a difference this makes, but 5/5 Improved MB is every 7 seconds. 5.5 seconds to cooldown and then 1.5 to cast once the cooldown is finished. The cooldown doesn't start until the cast finishes.
Oh, huh. I guess I hadn't paid attention to the fact that it had a cast time. Figured it was instant like SWD. I'll fiddle with that some.

Thanks for the help, Tricky. You should poke Leulier with something like this to add into The Spreadsheet.

Some other random discussion to keep things going in here: at what level of gear should you stop bothering with having the token affliction lock? Obviously, you can't have a full 0/21/40 raid since someone has to run an Imp for the tank (and if you're past that point, optimizing DPS doesn't matter). However, at what point will the raw scaling from 0/21/40 overtake the scaling of UA plus malediction? Is there ever a point?
#434SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
LCN
On a totally unrelated note, and sorry if it has been discussed already, does [Syphon of the Nathrezim] proc use up ISB charges? I heard a rumor, and remember reading something about it in these forums, but as far as I know people never got into a conclusion whether its doing it in the current version. It seems stupid that propably the best Enhancement offhand (mainhand as well?) at the stage would have such a flaw, or as Blizzard would refer to it; an ability.
If it does, it seems cruel to deny the Shammies from loot, but seeing how much 3 warlocks and 2 shadow priests for example gain from ISB, it'd also be more beneficial dps wise to do so.

edit: Having worked my way around the stupid limitations of the search engine here, I found the Shammies in their thread stating that it would NOT eat up the charges. However, the conversation was a stub, and ended pretty much when one person said "lawl it does not!". So some sort of confirmation would be nice.

Last edited by LCN : 11/29/07 at 4:00 AM.
#435SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Crepe View Post
Some other random discussion to keep things going in here: at what level of gear should you stop bothering with having the token affliction lock? Obviously, you can't have a full 0/21/40 raid since someone has to run an Imp for the tank (and if you're past that point, optimizing DPS doesn't matter). However, at what point will the raw scaling from 0/21/40 overtake the scaling of UA plus malediction? Is there ever a point?
People have reported affliction to produce better results at low levels, others (myself included) have experienced 21/40 outperforming it on all gear levels. Some people have reported it to depend on the fight more than anything.

The compendium already answers this: it depends more on lag, raid setup, player skill and play style then on gear levels. Your mileage will vary.

Optimal raid setup has at least one affliction warlock because of malediction, shadow embrace and an imp, regardless of gear.


On the subject of scaling:
Note that 0/21/40 gets more benefits from upgrades to any stat (damage, hit rating, crit rating, haste rating) than affliction does.
#436SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0sna
I believe, that for shadow bolt spamming (Had no time to do more math)
1% haste ~= 1% hit if hit<hitcap (Boss fight, three levels higher than level 70 player)

Input data:
  • SBXI= 603 - damage of shadow bolt rank 11
  • SC = 0.83 - spell damage coefficient
  • BCT =2.5 - base cast time (SB with Bane, but calculations behave same way with 3 sec. cast time)
  • FT = 600 - 10 min fight time (It's neutral factor, you will see it later)
  • SDG = 1000 - spell damage gear(it looks like it doesn't have influence on calculations, neutral factor)
  • SH - spell haste
  • HR - hit rating

Formulas:
  • MCT = BCT - (BCT * SH ) // Modified cast time
    DPS = (SBXI + (SDG*SC) ) * FT/MCT * HR / FT

First calculation:
16% haste rating, 0% hit rating
  • SH = 0.16 (16%)
    HR =0.83 (83% chance to hit boss = 0% hit rating from gear)

    MCT = 2.5 - (2.5*0.16) = 2.1
    DPS = ( 603 + (1000 * 0.83) ) * 600/2.1 * 0.83 / 600 = 566.376

Second calculation:
0% haste rating, 16% hit rating
  • SH = 0
    HR = 0.99

    MCT = 2.5
    DPS = (603 + (1000 * 0.83 ) ) * 600/2.5 * 0.99 / 600 = 567.468

But in DPS calculation given by formula DPS = (SBXI + (SDG*SC) ) * FT/MCT * HR / FT, there is one and only factor that has impact on result ( we still talk about comparison 1%hit to 1%haste in the meaning of DPS) the quotient HR/MCT.

I'll show you, that ratio HR/MCT (value that Shadow bolt damage is multiplied by) is about the same in n calculations for x Spell haste rating value and y Hit rating value, where x+y = z and x>=0, 0<=y<=16 (translation: ratio will be close to equal for n calculations if only you combine percentage x and y values that their sum always give z)

1)
16% spell haste, 0% hit rating, stats pool = 16
SH = 0.16
HR = 0.83
MCT = 2.5 - (2.5*0.16) = 2.1

Ratio1 = 0.83/2.1 = 0.3952

2)
0% spell haste, 16% hit rating, stats pool = 16
SH = 0
HR = 0.99
MCT = 2.5 - (2.5*0) = 2.5

Ratio2 = 0.99/2.5 = 0.396

3)
8% spell haste, 8%hit rating, stats pool = 16
(by doing this I show, that those values are equal in meaning of dps (rounding to 3 significant digits, rounding to 4 significant digits makes 1%hit = 1%spell haste + 0.001 )

SH = 0.08
HR = 0.91
MCT = 2.5 - (2.5*0.08) = 2.3

Ratio3 = 0.91/2.3 = 0.3956

So, ratio1 ~= ratio2 ~= ratio3.

I'm not saying, that this is a proof, as I said at the beginning, I believe, that those two values (Hit Rating and Spell haste) are equal (or close to) in therms of DPS and Shadow bolt spamming.
#437SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Spline
Originally Posted by sna View Post
MCT = BCT - (BCT * SH ) // Modified cast time

First calculation:
16% haste rating, 0% hit rating
  • SH = 0.16 (16%)
    HR =0.83 (83% chance to hit boss = 0% hit rating from gear)

    MCT = 2.5 - (2.5*0.16) = 2.1
    DPS = ( 603 + (1000 * 0.83) ) * 600/2.1 * 0.83 / 600 = 566.376
Setting SH to 1.00 ought to bring MCT down to 1.25. You can't make a spell instant cast via spell haste. Here's the correct formula:

MCT = BCT / (1 + SH)

Thus,

MCT = 2.5 / 1.16 = 2.155

Looking at your HR / MCT ratios:

0.83 / 2.155 = 0.385150812064965197215777262180

0.99 / 2.5 = 0.396

Looks like spell hit wins by a 3.7% margin. You're free to conclude that 1% hit and 1% haste are close to equal in terms of boltspam DPS. However, since 1% hit costs 12.6 item points while 1% haste costs 15.7, the economical choice is clear.
#438SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0sna
I failed. Didn't noticed I have wrong MCT formula :/

Speaking of economical choice, items with spell haste tend to have slightly higher value of Spell haste than items with hit rating have value of hit rating.

I have listed items with Spellhaste using wowhead (epics only) and got 15 of them. On average they have 30.9 Spell haste rating which is 1.9696%.
There are 61 Epic items usable by warlocks, with Spell hit. On average they have 18.54 Spell hit which is 1.47%.
#439SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 frmorrison
Originally Posted by LCN View Post
On a totally unrelated note, and sorry if it has been discussed already, does [Syphon of the Nathrezim] proc use up ISB charges? It seems stupid that propably the best Enhancement offhand (mainhand as well?)

Syphon's proc is basically a 6 second dot (that tics 6 times), so it will not eat imp SB charges, just like Corruption will not.

It is the best off-hand and maybe for Orcs getting two 5 expertise buffs may make it the best for MH, but if not Orc then Dragonstrike is best.
#440SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Silverstorm
Originally Posted by Spline View Post
Setting SH to 1.00 ought to bring MCT down to 1.25. You can't make a spell instant cast via spell haste.
Haste rating can be stacked until 100% haste is achieved, theoretically (though there isn't gear to support this). What you can't do is lower the GCD with haste. So MCT should be the following:

MCT = MIN(1.5, BCT * (1-SH))

His original calculations were correct for pure boltspam DPS.

Haste Explanation

Originally Posted by Spline View Post
However, since 1% hit costs 12.6 item points while 1% haste costs 15.7, the economical choice is clear.
You're assuming that 1 hit rating = 1 haste rating for itemization points. I haven't seen clear proof that this is the case yet. They do have different conversion ratios, that's been blue-clarified, but what I haven't seen is whether 1 hit = 1 haste on a piece of gear.
#441SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Trickykid
Originally Posted by Silverstorm View Post
MCT = MIN(1.5, BCT * (1-SH))
MAX, not MIN.
And while "pure SB spam" shows those numbers, there wasn't any inclusion of LT frequency, which favors hit.
#442SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Silverstorm View Post
H
You're assuming that 1 hit rating = 1 haste rating for itemization points. I haven't seen clear proof that this is the case yet.
I calculated the item level of the items when spell haste started going on gear, and it was 1 hit = 1 haste = 1 crit.


Haste will be more of a benefit when caster items are made like a few Season 3 melee items (specifically the Rogue gear), putting spell hit, crit, haste, damage, stam and int and sockets all on one piece.

Currently the well-itemized haste items is the timed quest ring in ZA, T6 trash drop ring, and the Illidan Staff.
#443SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kobal
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Currently the well-itemized haste items is the timed quest ring in ZA, T6 trash drop ring, and the Illidan Staff.
You forgot the crafted bracers. Not that they are particularly well itemized (only dmg and haste), but since the alternatives suffer the same fate they are probably still the best caster bracers in the game, at least for nuke-heavy builds.
#444SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
dakalro
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
People have reported affliction to produce better results at low levels, others (myself included) have experienced 21/40 outperforming it on all gear levels. Some people have reported it to depend on the fight more than anything.

The compendium already answers this: it depends more on lag, raid setup, player skill and play style then on gear levels. Your mileage will vary.

Optimal raid setup has at least one affliction warlock because of malediction, shadow embrace and an imp, regardless of gear.


On the subject of scaling:
Note that 0/21/40 gets more benefits from upgrades to any stat (damage, hit rating, crit rating, haste rating) than affliction does.
To be honest, from my own experience, the difference between a token affli lock in a tank group and a destro in a support group (spriest + resto shaman + mana pots, if still needed) is so huge atm that it's not even worth having one just for malediction. When in need of an imp a destro lock (which could easilly have 1-3 pts in imp imp) can give up saccing for a fight and still maintain respectable dps, at least close to an affli one in the same position.
Removing Life Tap from a destro lock's life is simply the biggest dps upgrade and at this point it's quite easy, on some fights even possible to give up 1-2 pot cooldowns to destruction potions and still never need to Life Tap. That in turn translates to a huge dps boost that an affli lock can't get because of improved Life Tap and Dark Pact already getting them a lot closer to their max. And for my own experience it's normally 300+ dps diff, going up to 5-600 on a let's say Patchwerk fight where I got to a so so 2380 dps (he has no partial resists). And Malediction can't make up for that difference.

On another note, Tried Oomkin + Ele combo on a Gruul kill recently and would like to say I'd never give up batteries for crit, maybe just the resto shaman once spriests get another 2-300 dps boost. 8% lucky extra crit still doesn't come close to always getting 10% more dps time from Life Taps (average I'd say).

Last edited by dakalro : 11/30/07 at 8:12 AM.
#445SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Katinsha
Reply to Dexterus (and our biggest destro promotor Arelenda):

I think you are overestimating the effect your talents have on your dps. I am affliction and my destro colleagues never trounce me on the dps meters, even while I am almost always in the MT group (so no help from others) and we run with an elemental shaman and two spriests most commonly. (At Archimonde at the moment, progression-wise).

Consensus is that one affliction warlock and rest 0/21/40 is best raid damage.

When looking at warlock damage, you should firstly ignore the damage done by CoD/CoA, since other locks will put up a non-damaging curse, skewing the damage done in favour of the former. Former is often a destro lock.

Secondly, destro locks receive more benefit from group buffs such as from the shaman (heroism, mana totem, wrath totem) and shadow priest (vampiric touch). Raid leaders know this and tinker caster groups with destro locks in it. Other locks often provide an imp to a tank group/are placed in a random spot outside the caster group. These buffs highly influence the ability and effectiveness of shadow bolt spamming. Not only for destro, also for affliction. You can't say: "oh but you have imp life tap and dark pact, you don't need it" since affliction actually requires more mana spend per second, seeing dots are mostly instant and bolts take 2.5 seconds.

Realise that destro locks in most circustances need (way) more healing to keep spamming shadow bolt. This may or may not be efficient for your raid group on a certain encounter. Like on Kaz'rogal and Naj'entus it seriously cripples you. Destro is just inferior on those healing-intensive fights.

Lastly, it simply takes more concentration (and skill! :P) to keep up DoTs and spam shadow bolt than it takes to spam shadow bolt alone. It is possible people get higher results due to the easier game-play destruction offers. When affliction locks seem to underperform, perhaps their dot uptime is low and/or their number of shadow bolts (which should not be lower than 80% of a destro lock).

In my opinion, most people see a jump in DPS because the game-play is that much simpler as Destro. Not because it is a hugely superior damage spec. It is better, I won't deny it, but not 400-500 dps with equal gear levels, except at the very high-end, where, you have to agree, dps is not a big issue anymore, since you farm the bosses at that stage. The relevant stages are when you still struggle on them (working on Vashj, Kael, Reliquary of Souls, insert other road-block).

Your own game-play (what spells to cast, keeping up most important dots, casting as many bolts as possible, when to life tap/dark pact, how to move, not to die, when to use what consumable, how to choose the best gear, how to tweak your build, etc.) is soo much more important than your talents, that generalizations like this:

Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
People have reported affliction to produce better results at low levels, others (myself included) have experienced 21/40 outperforming it on all gear levels.
are just false. Fresh destro locks with +6% to hit are absolutely terrible (on say, Gruul).

EDIT: I am aware that I have to change my name in the profile or people can't find me in WoW Armory. Recently changed it in-game.
EDIT: done

Last edited by Katinsha : 11/30/07 at 9:34 AM. Reason: message about my profile
#446SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Dondarion
Has anyone noticed the shadow resistances of bosses in ZA is somewhat high?
#447SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Benafflock
Originally Posted by Dondarion View Post
Has anyone noticed the shadow resistances of bosses in ZA is somewhat high?
I haven't noticed anything particulary significant, though I also don't have any WWS reports to back up such a claim.
#448SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0dakalro
Originally Posted by Katinsha View Post
Reply to Dexterus (and our biggest destro promotor Arelenda):

I think you are overestimating the effect your talents have on your dps. I am affliction and my destro colleagues never trounce me on the dps meters, even while I am almost always in the MT group (so no help from others) and we run with an elemental shaman and two spriests most commonly. (At Archimonde at the moment, progression-wise).

Consensus is that one affliction warlock and rest 0/21/40 is best raid damage.

When looking at warlock damage, you should firstly ignore the damage done by CoD/CoA, since other locks will put up a non-damaging curse, skewing the damage done in favour of the former. Former is often a destro lock.
I actually still manage to get at least second on fight I live through even if I'm most of the time doing CoE. CoD just helps on pushing over to 1st

Originally Posted by Katinsha View Post
Secondly, destro locks receive more benefit from group buffs such as from the shaman (heroism, mana totem, wrath totem) and shadow priest (vampiric touch). Raid leaders know this and tinker caster groups with destro locks in it. Other locks often provide an imp to a tank group/are placed in a random spot outside the caster group. These buffs highly influence the ability and effectiveness of shadow bolt spamming. Not only for destro, also for affliction. You can't say: "oh but you have imp life tap and dark pact, you don't need it" since affliction actually requires more mana spend per second, seeing dots are mostly instant and bolts take 2.5 seconds.
I never argued that you don't need spriest, as for ele shaman, I'd rather take a resto one anytime. Mana regen beats a possible 3% increase in dmg hands down, especially for me since each and every time I've tried to get some bigger numbers on real bosses I've just ended up on 18-25% crit, out of 32-33% buffed theoretical.


Originally Posted by Katinsha View Post
Realise that destro locks in most circustances need (way) more healing to keep spamming shadow bolt. This may or may not be efficient for your raid group on a certain encounter. Like on Kaz'rogal and Naj'entus it seriously cripples you. Destro is just inferior on those healing-intensive fights.
Absolutely FALSE. Since I don't Life Tap I don't overuse hp and Soul Leech is plenty healing on a 9k crit when I actually do Life Tap. With Healthstonex3 + Death Coil, it's enough.


Originally Posted by Katinsha View Post
Lastly, it simply takes more concentration (and skill! :P) to keep up DoTs and spam shadow bolt than it takes to spam shadow bolt alone. It is possible people get higher results due to the easier game-play destruction offers. When affliction locks seem to underperform, perhaps their dot uptime is low and/or their number of shadow bolts (which should not be lower than 80% of a destro lock).
Don't even try to go there, I've been Affli for ... almost 2y6m, kinda, and with quite good success rate even and as for DoT uptime, that's actually not even something that's worth mentioning, it's automatism at some point to keep DoTs up as much as humanly possible. As for myself, destro has one crappy part, a lot more bar watching intensity, opposed to watching DoTimer, latency on quartz bar is variable and one late (post 2.3)/missed (pre-2.3) SB costs dearly.

Originally Posted by Katinsha View Post
In my opinion, most people see a jump in DPS because the game-play is that much simpler as Destro. Not because it is a hugely superior damage spec. It is better, I won't deny it, but not 400-500 dps with equal gear levels, except at the very high-end, where, you have to agree, dps is not a big issue anymore, since you farm the bosses at that stage. The relevant stages are when you still struggle on them (working on Vashj, Kael, Reliquary of Souls, insert other road-block).
Have to agree on the first part, but that's actually only relevant for lower gear levels or poor Affliction warlocks.
The dps difference is there, especially at this stage since dps race is pretty much all that's left for fun, no wipes to learn stuff, no more need to grind or w/e. And when Affliction is lacking regen, I simply get your life tap time in extra dps by default. Add the possibility of using 1-2 destro pots a fight, on the side of 1-2 mana pots and it all adds up. At this point you simply relax, perform whatever you need to easilly since you've done it so many times and just roll over the dps meters.

Originally Posted by Katinsha View Post
Your own game-play (what spells to cast, keeping up most important dots, casting as many bolts as possible, when to life tap/dark pact, how to move, not to die, when to use what consumable, how to choose the best gear, how to tweak your build, etc.) is soo much more important than your talents, that generalizations like this:
Agreed here but don't like what you're implying and am nicely telling you shouldn't. It isn't that.


I'm sorry to say but you didn't read my post carefully ... I DON'T Life Tap, that's the whole point, the entire empty mana bar in 1 minute issue is simply gone, no more extra healing, no need to LT, DP, anything; and that gives a huge boost in dps that Affli already has part of it, through DP and Imp LT.

As for group buffs, Resto shaman and shadow priest are the best buffs, crit doesn't do much in terms of reliability of dps. It is my opinion that you should first increase your highest reliable dps then go for the lucky part with crit. I'd rather leave ele shaman and moonkin to mages, they actually have a lot more benefit from those than locks in terms of reliability of dps.

And when difference is 600 dps I somehow doubt it's CoD doing it. I've been affli myself and I love it but it just doesn't look in any way shape or form capable of even touching destro in terms of damage. I've been on the damage meters at start kinda behind the same lock that now is still affli. And even though he isn't quite affli geared (you know, better crit is still more ISB uptime and the SPriests even screamed at me for having fun with Incinerate on a trash mob ) I really doubt he's doing anything wrong in terms of maximizing his dps.
I've topped so far every fight but Anetheron and Azgalor, not every time but enough to know I can do it. And on those it's not gonna be locks topping them if melee has anything to say and casters have to kill infernals.
#449SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Katinsha
Realised it wasn't really a reply to your post, as more in general against the many people simply calling affliction as dead on these boards. So, don't feel attacked...

I do however like to check out the WWS from you before switching compared to after you switched. 600 DPS difference is huge, I like to see how this was made possible.
#450SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Trickykid
Originally Posted by Katinsha View Post
Realised it wasn't really a reply to your post, as more in general against the many people simply calling affliction as dead on these boards. So, don't feel attacked...
No one is saying it's dead -- you can do respectable DPS as many specs if you plan the fights around your build and know how to execute. At 3/4 tk 5/6 ssc I am able to push similar levels of DPS as affliction, demonology and destruction. The reason why I choose destro is that there are fewer conditions for or restrictions on my success and I am able to take better advantage of raid/group buffs without gimping debuff slots.

As gear improves, 21/40 continues to separate from the others. I am on the low-end of gear for locks on this forum, so for most that difference is more pronounced. While you can still say affliction CAN do respectable DPS if played correctly, you're on a board with people who are looking for ways to squeeze an extra 10 dps out of their lock. So if a build is even only slightly inferior, it won't garner a lot of support.
#451SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Arelenda
Well, I've been gone for a week (AD-EU real life meet) and now this.


First of all: haste calculations

To get more reasonable results, you should incorporate some kind of mana consumption rate. Life Tap causes global cooldowns and therefore lowers your dps. E.g. If you need to tap once per 4 bolts, then you need to add 1.5s per 4 bolts to your casting time when calculating sustained damage.

total_casting_time = base_casting_time / (1 + haste_rating / 1577) + 1.5s / shadowbolts_per_tap

Note that how much mana you get depends on your spell power (80% coefficient), and Shadow Bolt cost can be talented to a 5% reduction.


Second:

I've had more than enough of the spec jyhad.

Some people like affliction. Some people like demonology. Some people like the 30/21/10 spec. Each and every one of these specs can top a raid's damage meter, and they can be fun to play and require skill to perform optimally. These are all facts.

Debating without solid evidence is very counterproductive and against the spirit of this board. Due to the nature of these specs (all have a different playstyle), objective results are almost impossible to get.

I've already went as far as to list some specs that I don't particularly think are raid viable (destro fire, for example) to avoid bruising egos. The compendium mentions the relevant debate. I will leave it at that.



Third:

To the warlock that claims not to use Life Tap: I'm very interested in seeing how you can keep up good dps without using it. Can you elaborate? I tend to go out of mana in less than two minutes. Mana potions are spent in less than half a minute. Am I missing something?


(was edited shortly after posting for clarity, resulting in a small crossquote)

Last edited by Arelenda : 11/30/07 at 4:06 PM.
#452SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Crepe
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
People have reported affliction to produce better results at low levels, others (myself included) have experienced 21/40 outperforming it on all gear levels. Some people have reported it to depend on the fight more than anything.
Indeed. I'm one of those who saw an increase at the tail end of the T4 gear level.

Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
The compendium already answers this: it depends more on lag, raid setup, player skill and play style then on gear levels. Your mileage will vary.

Optimal raid setup has at least one affliction warlock because of malediction, shadow embrace and an imp, regardless of gear.
Of course there is a huge YMMV tag to this whole thing. However, I was merely curious if the additional scaling of destro would eventually overtake the raid advantage provided by malediction. Obviously this depends entirely on your raid composition, since you need to estimate the benefits that 3% shadow damage has to all shadow damage-using raiders. (I was secretly hoping someone would hit it with a math bat so that I could calculate the break even point with some raid composition inputs, but alas.)

Originally Posted by dakalro View Post
To be honest, from my own experience, the difference between a token affli lock in a tank group and a destro in a support group (spriest + resto shaman + mana pots, if still needed) is so huge atm that it's not even worth having one just for malediction. When in need of an imp a destro lock (which could easilly have 1-3 pts in imp imp) can give up saccing for a fight and still maintain respectable dps, at least close to an affli one in the same position.
At what gear level are affliction locks around 85% the DPS of destruction? No Touch of Shadow is a huge DPS loss.

Originally Posted by dakalro View Post
Removing Life Tap from a destro lock's life is simply the biggest dps upgrade and at this point it's quite easy, on some fights even possible to give up 1-2 pot cooldowns to destruction potions and still never need to Life Tap. That in turn translates to a huge dps boost that an affli lock can't get because of improved Life Tap and Dark Pact already getting them a lot closer to their max. And for my own experience it's normally 300+ dps diff, going up to 5-600 on a let's say Patchwerk fight where I got to a so so 2380 dps (he has no partial resists). And Malediction can't make up for that difference.

On another note, Tried Oomkin + Ele combo on a Gruul kill recently and would like to say I'd never give up batteries for crit, maybe just the resto shaman once spriests get another 2-300 dps boost. 8% lucky extra crit still doesn't come close to always getting 10% more dps time from Life Taps (average I'd say).
Leuiler tells me I'm spending 15% of my time life tapping, so this is somewhat true. However, the fact is that there are much better DPM places to put that spriest mana to use: hunters are fairly mana starved and their spells don't cost much, so the difference an spriest makes is significantly larger; mages can convert pretty much any quantity of mana into damage, given threat ceiling. The main reason I liked spriest is so I could "dip" from VE healing, so healers wouldn't have to top me off from LT. But that's not enough to justify me retaining the spriest over others. Much much much much more important is WoA. Spelldamage is almost always a warlock's best scaling stat, and a static 100 more is a pretty huge buff.

Also, do not discount the extra crit. One of detro's primary goals is increasing ISB uptime. Crit helps you do that. Checking assessment post most raids, crits make up about 40-50% of my damage done with SB.

Also, if you can guarantee the ele shaman, you can pick up gear w/o hit (or dump gems with it) to grab more damage, a very good trade-off. Assuming perfect itemization, that 4% hit you drop could be another 50-60 damage or another 2-3% crit.

Originally Posted by Katinsha View Post
When looking at warlock damage, you should firstly ignore the damage done by CoD/CoA, since other locks will put up a non-damaging curse, skewing the damage done in favour of the former. Former is often a destro lock.
I would hope everyone is discounting CoD/CoA here. If you are running any of those, you already are in a luxurious 4+ lock raid and likely will have debuff problems anyway. Some T5 raids might ditch CoE if enough of their mages go arcane, but I'm assuming that's going away now due to the recent mage buffs WRT fire/frost. A raid without 4-5 of (rogue, hunter, dps feral, dps warrior, lolret, enh, tank) is not going to be very common.

Originally Posted by Katinsha View Post
Secondly, destro locks receive more benefit from group buffs such as from the shaman (heroism, mana totem, wrath totem) and shadow priest (vampiric touch). Raid leaders know this and tinker caster groups with destro locks in it. Other locks often provide an imp to a tank group/are placed in a random spot outside the caster group. These buffs highly influence the ability and effectiveness of shadow bolt spamming. Not only for destro, also for affliction. You can't say: "oh but you have imp life tap and dark pact, you don't need it" since affliction actually requires more mana spend per second, seeing dots are mostly instant and bolts take 2.5 seconds.
This is true, and likely the reason why T4 locks report higher than the "spreadsheet" says they should, because of the artificial scaling of the group buffs. This is why you should always tinker your simulations assuming full normal raid buffs (AI crit, DS damage, flask, food, oil, etc.) and come up with a couple of difference scenarios involving possible raid buffs (shaman, spriest, moonkin, etc.) Always do apples-to-apples comparisons with numbers if at all possible.

This still doesn't change the fact that destro does scale better and that past a certain point, is doing more damage. Even when you give the affliction locks all these benefits, they cannot catch up, as they just don't scale as well. Since you have limited buff slots, you use them where they benefit the raid the most.

Originally Posted by Katinsha View Post
Realise that destro locks in most circustances need (way) more healing to keep spamming shadow bolt. This may or may not be efficient for your raid group on a certain encounter. Like on Kaz'rogal and Naj'entus it seriously cripples you. Destro is just inferior on those healing-intensive fights.
This is a sensitivity for destro, as has been noted. Do not discount Soul Siphon (I know, I laughed too when I first heard it), however. Glancing over a few healing intensive encounters, I find I'm healing myself with that to the tune of 2/3rds what the affliction locks are healing themselves with SL. Will it entirely make up for it? No. But good healers, smart LT timing, and that talent make up for a lot more than you're granting here.

The only situations I've run into where this was a major liability (i.e., holding up the encounter) was when I was tanking T5 stuff. The extra healing stress does matter for Leo or Capernian.

Originally Posted by Katinsha View Post
Lastly, it simply takes more concentration (and skill! :P) to keep up DoTs and spam shadow bolt than it takes to spam shadow bolt alone. It is possible people get higher results due to the easier game-play destruction offers. When affliction locks seem to underperform, perhaps their dot uptime is low and/or their number of shadow bolts (which should not be lower than 80% of a destro lock).
Wait, 80% of destro? How many dots are you juggling again? That's a 68% cast ratio of SB with 4 dots to maintain as well as a LT/DP cycle to keep up with. The best I'm seeing with UA builds in the spreadsheet is a 55% cast ratio of SB with no haste gear and no immolate. That's a 13% difference.

Originally Posted by Katinsha View Post
In my opinion, most people see a jump in DPS because the game-play is that much simpler as Destro. Not because it is a hugely superior damage spec. It is better, I won't deny it, but not 400-500 dps with equal gear levels, except at the very high-end, where, you have to agree, dps is not a big issue anymore, since you farm the bosses at that stage. The relevant stages are when you still struggle on them (working on Vashj, Kael, Reliquary of Souls, insert other road-block).
Even with perfect dot rotations and equivalent gear, I'm still seeing spreadsheet numbers on the order of 100-150dps ahead by the time you're kitted out in T5. That is not the very high end. The earlier performance (in T4, for example) is most likely due to what you're claiming. However, the scaling does win out shortly thereafter: affliction scales with damage, destruction scales with damage, crit, and haste.

Originally Posted by Katinsha View Post
Your own game-play (what spells to cast, keeping up most important dots, casting as many bolts as possible, when to life tap/dark pact, how to move, not to die, when to use what consumable, how to choose the best gear, how to tweak your build, etc.) is soo much more important than your talents, that generalizations like this are just false. Fresh destro locks with +6% to hit are absolutely terrible (on say, Gruul).
How is "tweaking your build" more important than talents? Seems to be the same thing to me. :-P

EDIT:
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
I've had more than enough of the spec jyhad. Some people like affliction. Some people like demonology. Some people like the horribly inefficient 30/21/10 spec. I have no doubt that each and every one of these specs can top a raid's damage meter, and all of these can be fun to play.

I've already went as far as to list some specs that I don't particularly think are raid viable (destro fire, for example) to avoid bruising egos. The compendium mentions the relevant debate. I'll leave it at that.
Well said. If someone has hard numbers to share, I'm all for them. Comparing on stuff other than data is what intarweb flame wars are made of. :-P
#453SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0clavarnway
Originally Posted by dakalro View Post
To be honest, from my own experience, the difference between a token affli lock in a tank group and a destro in a support group (spriest + resto shaman + mana pots, if still needed) is so huge atm that it's not even worth having one just for malediction. When in need of an imp a destro lock (which could easilly have 1-3 pts in imp imp) can give up saccing for a fight and still maintain respectable dps, at least close to an affli one in the same position.
Removing Life Tap from a destro lock's life is simply the biggest dps upgrade and at this point it's quite easy, on some fights even possible to give up 1-2 pot cooldowns to destruction potions and still never need to Life Tap. That in turn translates to a huge dps boost that an affli lock can't get because of improved Life Tap and Dark Pact already getting them a lot closer to their max. And for my own experience it's normally 300+ dps diff, going up to 5-600 on a let's say Patchwerk fight where I got to a so so 2380 dps (he has no partial resists). And Malediction can't make up for that difference.

On another note, Tried Oomkin + Ele combo on a Gruul kill recently and would like to say I'd never give up batteries for crit, maybe just the resto shaman once spriests get another 2-300 dps boost. 8% lucky extra crit still doesn't come close to always getting 10% more dps time from Life Taps (average I'd say).
How are you not Life Tapping? Are you lucky enough to always have a Shadow Priest + pots? Do you sac fel pup?
#454SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Cohren
Even with an Ele Shm and Spriest at some point your going to have to use LT to maintain top DPS. Other than stacking Int and saccing a lot of everything else I see no way for this to be possible and top meters.
#455SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0dakalro
If you paid attention to what I wrote you'd see, good spriest + RESTO shaman + mana pots (acquired and required addiction for this). Sometimes, if spriest gets nice dps I can even skip a mana pot. In a 5 min fight, no Life Taps, no stat stacking, sacced succu ofc. Ele shaman ... never tbh, resto seems way better as support for locks.
And we have a weird-ish setup that started with our all out on haste shaman. He always gets spriest. Since then caster groups (2x) are spriest + resto shaman + casters, rarely a healer among those or on some, few fights, healers get in. So yeah, on most of the fights, if I'm in range of the Mana Tide/Mana Spring, I don't need to LT.

And all this is pretty much dependant on how good your shadow priests' dps is, the better they do the less LT you need.
#456SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 frmorrison
You may be getting by without Tapping using an abnormal group and possibly suboptimal gear with regen stats, but you would do more damage sacing Succy and Life Tapping.
#457SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
dakalro
Why abnormal, 5k mana return from shaman helps a lot on top of the ~5k from pots and whatever the spriest can squeeze out.
And re-reading my previous post I should have probably said I've only consistently managed to go without LTs on 3 T6 fights and Patchwerk, where spriests get a prety nice boost in dps due to no partial resists. That's Naj, Teron and Rage, but it's getting there, many of the other fights actually have movement you need to do so you get no loss from LT and in any case the shadow priests won't have the required regen.

Didn't quite intend to make it sound like I completely removed LT from my bars just came out wrong.

As for who gets shadow priests ... I saw mages get a much larger return from having 8% crit rather than the extra regen. And with seeing a restro druid use his offspec gear for moonkin, not even full +dmg and getting 1700 dps, I can't say what I used to ... that I don't like moonkins, they simply seem to work in the right hands. Not top dps but certainly close. But why shouldn't I get shadow priest? Only ones left out are usually 1-2 casters (affli lock + maybe another one, varies, including myself) and the hunter who gets the 2nd feral in the odd group.

Last edited by dakalro : 11/30/07 at 8:16 PM.
#458SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Furio
Originally Posted by Cohren View Post
Even with an Ele Shm and Spriest at some point your going to have to use LT to maintain top DPS. Other than stacking Int and saccing a lot of everything else I see no way for this to be possible and top meters.
Dakalro, please post some parses were you aren't life tapping. Like the above poster, I can't fathom how it's possible to maintain high DPS without Life Tapping. Lately I've been having a Resto Shaman and a T6 geared SP in my party (the ideal mana regen you cite in your posts), but I still run out of mana on everything but RoS (only because each phase is so short). Granted, I run with 145 Haste Rating (increasing the rate at which I consume mana). Still, though, I don't see how it's possible to avoid Life Tapping without multiple Shadow Priests stacked in your group.

Rough Calculations for Mp5:
Gear: 0 Mp5
Consumables: 0 Mp5 (no DPS consumables)
Demonic Sac: 0 Mp5 (Succubus sacrificed)
SP: 325 Mp5 (assumes 1,300 DPS SP)
Mana Spring Totem: 72.5 Mp5 (assumes 5/5 Restorative Totems and T4 bonus: ticks for 29 every 2 sec)
BoW: 49.2 Mp5 (assumes 2/2 Imp BoW)
Mana Tide: 40 Mp5 (assumes 10,000 raid buffed mana pool)
Super Mana Potion: 100 Mp5 (assumes average mana return)
Total: 586.7 Mp5
Shadow Bolt: -798 Mp5 (assumes 5/5 Cataclysm and 0 haste rating)
Net: -211.3 Mp5

With the assumed 10,000 raid buffed mana pool, your total time spamming solely Shadow Bolt is a paltry 236.6 seconds of casting (94 Shadow Bolts). [Note: With 0 Mp5 and a 10k mana pool, you will be oom from SB spam after 63 seconds.]

Dakalro, initially I was skeptical that you can DPS without Life Tap, but after doing (and re-doing) some basic mana regen math, four minutes without a Life Tap is feasible, although it does group compositions that may be sub-optimal for overall raid DPS.


Edit: In the time it took me to post this you posted two clarification posts. Still, your clarifications do not change any assumptions from this post (and I even grant you a larger raid buffed mana pool than you likely have). In one of your clarification posts you claim no life tapping over a 5 minute fight. If that's true, then you are not continuously casting (as the Mp5 math above proves).

Edit 2: Fixed SP Mp5 (can't believe I messed that up) and adjusted other values based on the replies from Dakalro. Conclusions changed drastically. Still, though, shows that Life Tapping is required on all but the shortest fights.

Last edited by Furio : 11/30/07 at 9:07 PM.
#459SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0dakalro
Unless I'm completely blind I didn't LT here . Ignore the rest of the spells cast, it was fooling around, an almost wipe and I died only a couple of seconds before boss, forgot to CoD after the 2nd one and overall not so awesome when all you get is "Aggro from Shadowy Construct" with 4-5 around you . True, kind of short fight, will try and find an older one if I still kept the log.
#460SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Trickykid
Shadow priest returns 5% of damage, 1200 DPS * 5 seconds * 0.05 = 300 mp5, not 60.

Last edited by Trickykid : 11/30/07 at 8:32 PM.
#461SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
dakalro
It doesn't have to put you on 0 mana usage, just enough to keep you going for the length of the fight though. Then there's this where I ended up with way more mana than I needed, around 60% or so after 3 min.

Last edited by dakalro : 11/30/07 at 8:36 PM.
#462SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Trickykid
So... to go without LT (with 2.5s bolt and no curses...):
base_mana + mp5*fight_length/5 = fight_length*399/2.5

mp5 necessary = 798 - 5 * base_mana / fight_length
or
fight_length possible with no LT = 5 * base_mana / (798 - mp5)
#463SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Furio
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
Shadow priest returns 5% of damage, 1200 DPS * 5 seconds * 0.05 = 300 mp5, not 60.
/boggle I can't believe I neglected a factor of 5. Above post is edited with correct number and a drastically different conclusion. Still, though, the fact remains that Life Tap remains necessary for most fights (as most fights last longer than four minutes) even if you happen to be in a mana regen party.
#464SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Roywyn
How much extra damage is one charge of Shadow Vulnerability worth?

If I'm out of mana and everything is on cooldown, I can either wand or lie down (as a mage or whoever really). Now the last option doesn't feel very satisfying, especially when a boss is on very low health.

So, how does wanding (1.5s speed, 177 base DPS wand, shadow damage) compare to just standing around?
How much is one charge of shadow vulnerabilty worth in a typical raid setting?
Bear in mind that all endgamge wands are 1.5s shadow wands, non-shadow wands are from arena (1.9s, fire) or under 100 DPS, and the slower wands regenerate less mana from JoW. Not wanding also would regain no mana from JoW.

So, you see it's all pretty complicated, so I'd love to obtain a figure on the value of one Shadow Vulnerability charge to work with.
#465SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Roywyn View Post
How much extra damage is one charge of Shadow Vulnerability worth?

If I'm out of mana and everything is on cooldown, I can either wand or lie down (as a mage or whoever really). Now the last option doesn't feel very satisfying, especially when a boss is on very low health.

So, how does wanding (1.5s speed, 177 base DPS wand, shadow damage) compare to just standing around?
How much is one charge of shadow vulnerabilty worth in a typical raid setting?
Bear in mind that all endgamge wands are 1.5s shadow wands, non-shadow wands are from arena (1.9s, fire) or under 100 DPS, and the slower wands regenerate less mana from JoW. Not wanding also would regain no mana from JoW.

So, you see it's all pretty complicated, so I'd love to obtain a figure on the value of one Shadow Vulnerability charge to work with.
It is downright impossible to tell for sure. Spreadsheets can't come close due to horrible ISB hidden mechanics discussed in previous posts. ShadowSeer tries but can be horribly off if you're out of range to receive debuff messages. There are variables one can change to increase range on damage messages, and most mods do. It's been reported that debuff messages aren't affected by these. ShadowSeer has been put on hold until 2.4 for this reason, with me hoping that the much needed cleanup will fix these things. Currently its ISB data is 100% reliable only when staying within 30 yards of a boss at all times.

It also depends heavily on the fight and amount of shadow users. The kind of fight where you go oom is typically going to be a boss fight, so let's assume that.

In my experience, ShadowSeer has recorded values of about 1500-2000 added damage per crit with around 6-7 shadow users fighting a boss, on the rare occasion where I could get what I consider reliable figures. One could very roughly estimate that a charge is worth 400 on average in that raid.

Even if we halved this, wanding with a shadow wand seems to be very ineffective. Very low shadow damage hits every 1.5seconds are the Warlock's worst nightmare, and the reason I recommend not using Lash of Pain on a Succubus. Intuitively, I'd shy away from anything that reduces Shadow Priest dps. Almost 25% (=5x5%) of their damage done goes to mana starved people in a long fight.

For optimal results, make a "swap to spirit weapon and non-shadow wand and start wanding" macro. This would allow you to benefit from spirit, non-shadow damage, and JoW. The only wand that has high dps and doesn't do shadow damage is [Merciless Gladiator's Touch of Defeat] and it's cheaper younger brother [Gladiator's Touch of Defeat], according to wowhead. You might still have a pre-2.3 Evocation staff lying around.

One should be realistic, though. We're talking low numbers in a small portion of a long fight, it'd be very hard to measure. Obtaining a pvp wand for the sole purpose of increasing your raid dps contribution when wanding is pushing it quite far. But then again, that's what these forums are for.



If you really want to do your own research, have a melee person (like a MT) run ShadowSeer, they'll be producing reliable data about ISB damage contribution per crit in your raid. I haven't tested this in a while myself, but it ought to still work in 2.3.

Last edited by Arelenda : 11/30/07 at 11:56 PM.
#466SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PSGarak
It's not very standard from raid to raid because it varies by composition, but it's relatively easy to model: recalculate the ISB uptime adding in another "caster" with an effective 1.5s cast time and 0% ISB proc rate. Use the drop in ISB uptime to see how your shadow caster dps changes. My guess is, it will tank. Like, really bad. 1.5s is fast compared to cast speeds so you're basically casting as much as two destro warlocks, essentially halving their crit rate for ISB uptime models. If you have 5 shadow casters doing 1000 pre-ISB damage each, and knock the ISB uptime by 20% absolute (not unreasonable), you just reduced the raid damage by about 200 dps, or 300 per wand hit. I have yet to see any 200 dps wands. Note that this is dps, not per-charge; in a 60%-uptime model, each hit has a 3/5 chance of using a charge so each that does use a charge is 5/3 the damage of the average case, meaning 500 damage per wand hit.

In a bizzare counterintuitive twist of fate, this may actually be worse for your personal regen. Shadow preists doing less damage means you get less mana. I don't think the actual gain is comparable to JoW in any way shape or form but your group members will be angry with you if you made them go out of mana faster.

I recomend getting a non-shadow wand for actual JoW wanding. Preferably one as fast as you can find. Avoid nature damage wands too if you have enhancement shamans, for the same reason: 1k Lightning bolt > 50 wand hit.

Also, never ever ever wand in threat-capped fights ever, ever. Every non-subtletied point of damage that you do is 1.1 to 1.4 points of subtletied damage you could have done instead to reach the same threat-cap, meaning you just shot yourself in the foot by 10-40% depending on spec.
#467SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Roywyn
Thanks a lot for the info.

I know my fair share about things, and that especially shadow damage multipliers have a high impact on raid performance due to shadow priest mechanics.

I rarely have to resort to wanding, and always grab my old Evocation staff for that. Yet, there are situations when SPs go to healers, Evocation gets interrupted by damage after 1 tick (yay for 1.5k instead of 9k mana back) or we have to AoE or the fights are long.

Also, I have at least 10 different wands that deal shadow damage, with 1.5s speed or slower, with up to 184 DPS. And one 1.3s wand with nature damage (stormstrike + poison/earth shock) and 62 DPS.
I could get a 167 to 198 DPS fire wand at 1.9s speed from arenas, and just saw the 1.3s 96 DPS fire wand from Sporeggar.

Oh, and 200 DPS wands sound quite realistic. Take 184 DPS base (BT wands), -5% from partial resists, -5% from full resists, +10% from 20% crit (wands are affected by spell hit/crit on gear, has been tested) and add 5% misery, 10% shadow weaving, 10% curse of shadows and you're at 233 DPS before ISB debuffs.

Fire mages have an effective efficiency of ~8 DPM, meaning that 1 extra mana when OOM translates to 8 extra damage. (The mana efficiency as damage/manacost is higher, ~14 DPM, but that's not what matters here.)
So, the mana from JoW yields about 280 damage, compared to standing still and not doing anything.


Back to the drawing board, thanks for your help!
#468SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nas
Speaking of Affliction and its utility - has anyone come up with the threshold that makes a Affliction/Ruin build out-DPS a standard UA build for personal DPS? Then we would factor in that a Affliction/Ruin build with a decent amount of crit (which one would have at the BT/Hyjal level) would be increasing ISB uptime significantly more than a UA build would.

All in all, without any real evidence, it seems to me that such a build at higher gear levels could be quite a good substitute for the "token UA Warlock" - it does provide all the utility (SE, BP and Mal) while increasing ISB uptime and at higher gear level possibly doing more DPS?

However, as I said, I haven't really done any maths on that, and as such I was wondering if anyone else was curious enough as to do a bit of calculation on the subject.
#469SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0clavarnway
Originally Posted by dakalro View Post
If you paid attention to what I wrote you'd see, good spriest + RESTO shaman + mana pots (acquired and required addiction for this).
Wow, thanks for the condescending attitude, it makes me feel great!


Sometimes, if spriest gets nice dps I can even skip a mana pot. In a 5 min fight, no Life Taps, no stat stacking, sacced succu ofc. Ele shaman ... never tbh, resto seems way better as support for locks.
And we have a weird-ish setup that started with our all out on haste shaman. He always gets spriest. Since then caster groups (2x) are spriest + resto shaman + casters, rarely a healer among those or on some, few fights, healers get in. So yeah, on most of the fights, if I'm in range of the Mana Tide/Mana Spring, I don't need to LT.

And all this is pretty much dependant on how good your shadow priests' dps is, the better they do the less LT you need.
With that said, if you can get a group setup that lets you not LT more power to you, but I've never experienced such a thing.
#470SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Nas View Post
Speaking of Affliction and its utility - has anyone come up with the threshold that makes a Affliction/Ruin build out-DPS a standard UA build for personal DPS? Then we would factor in that a Affliction/Ruin build with a decent amount of crit (which one would have at the BT/Hyjal level) would be increasing ISB uptime significantly more than a UA build would.
It depends on your crit and damage if Ruin would beat UA for overall damage dealt. Certainly if you have 4 Tier 6 you have passed the mark.

Either way, once you have some Tier 6 you likely will at least break even.
#471SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 Eph
Originally Posted by Nas View Post
it does provide all the utility (SE, BP and Mal)
What would this build look like? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft ?
#472SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Aphex-
Why would you have Imp CoA and Malediction in the same build assuming you're going to put up CoS in a raid?
#473SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 Eph
Originally Posted by Aphex- View Post
Why would you have Imp CoA and Malediction in the same build assuming you're going to put up CoS in a raid?
Or two more points in Fel Conc? I think I CoA more than I DL, but they are both pretty minor improvements.

I guess the main point of my question was to see if taking two points out of Contagion was the best place in order to get SE, Mal, and Ruin.
#474SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Eph View Post
Or two more points in Fel Conc? I think I CoA more than I DL, but they are both pretty minor improvements.

I guess the main point of my question was to see if taking two points out of Contagion was the best place in order to get SE, Mal, and Ruin.
It's a good spec, in my opinion. The compendium already lists a build similar to this.

imp CoA is not useless, as you spam Agony on trash. Not a big deal, though.

Last edited by Arelenda : 12/02/07 at 9:15 AM.
#475SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0kaib
With that spec you are pretty much only using CoE/CoS, Corruption and Shadow Bolt. SL is ok in fights where the healing helps, but otherwise just casting sbolt and keeping Cor up wins. I also removed points out of Contagion and there's no other option really. All the higher tier stuff is locked in. You need 7 points in grim reach/nightfall/emp corruption, then 6 in SL/SE and 5 in SM. That leaves you with 7 points for the last two reachable tiers. Three in Malediction are a must (only reason for this spec, 21/40 is just more dps). So you can go with 4 in Contagion and 0 in Dark Pact or 3/1. I'd never give up Dark Pact for 1% Corruption/Seed damage. Maybe if there's a boss fight where seed dmg actually matters, but right now there isn't.

In the end it is still a debuff bitch spec, you cannot compete with 21/40 in any way. However with a certain amount of gear it's better then full affliction and after all one warlock should have SE/Malediction for any non-farm stuff and I'd much rather be malediction/Ruin then full affliction. Other then that with a certain amount of crit your dps is just better, you also buff raid dps more by casting more sbolts and use up less debuff slots.
Plus I really like having both destructive reach and Intensity. Spell pushbacks suck.
While using that spec I had 4/5 in Fel Concentration instead of imp agony/amplify curse as I was using CoS all the time anyway.
#476SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Roaminggnome
A question regarding the Affliction "classic spec"

Is there a specific reason why an affliction warlock would not sacrifice 2 points in Demonic Embrace and pick up 2/2 Destructive Reach? It seems somewhat counterintuitive to have Grim Reach for your DoTs and still be forced to stand closer to a boss to keep your shadowbolt spam going. Also, the threat reduction on those shadowbolts can only be a good thing. More stamina is great of course, but it's hardly a limiting factor for dps, given the large amounts of it present on our gear anyway, yes? Anyway, even though I am very much a new and somewhat casual raider, I consider maximizing my personal effectiveness to be important. Could somebody give me some feedback on this?
#477SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Roaminggnome View Post
Is there a specific reason why an affliction warlock would not sacrifice 2 points in Demonic Embrace and pick up 2/2 Destructive Reach? It seems somewhat counterintuitive to have Grim Reach for your DoTs and still be forced to stand closer to a boss to keep your shadowbolt spam going. Also, the threat reduction on those shadowbolts can only be a good thing. More stamina is great of course, but it's hardly a limiting factor for dps, given the large amounts of it present on our gear anyway, yes? Anyway, even though I am very much a new and somewhat casual raider, I consider maximizing my personal effectiveness to be important. Could somebody give me some feedback on this?
Hmm. Good point.

Specs listed aren't set in stone, obviously. Destructive Reach does beat stamina in most fights. I'll fix it.

Grim Reach tends to be more valuable since you actually cycle through possible targets more often with dots. Shadow Bolts will usually be directed on a single target.
#478SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0clavarnway
It's very frustrating to have range on one set of spells but not on the other when you use both on the same targets. I definitely recommend picking up both or neither if you are Affliction.
#479SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Roaminggnome
Originally Posted by clavarnway View Post
It's very frustrating to have range on one set of spells but not on the other when you use both on the same targets. I definitely recommend picking up both or neither if you are Affliction.
This is a good point. Grim Reach is certainly not mandatory for every fight. The conflict I noted is if you have one but not the other, but I didn't mention that having neither resolves the conflict just as effectively as having both.
#480SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0lavis
I've always wondered about 40/0/21 spec it definitely requires some nice gear to pull off and would be a interesting spec for a lock first entering bt/hyjal with 4 piece T5 being that you really only use a rotation like CoS > Corruption > SB x7 > Corruption etc.

Does anyone have experience with this spec? And how much DPS could you push out on a fight like Teron Gorefeind where you didn't get ghosted? I really would like to do some theorycrafting on this one! Thanks.
#481SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 frmorrison
I have played 40/0/21, it is a great spec once you have around 20% crit (so 25 with devestation) and 1400 damage and as a plus you use one less debuff slot.

You could do 38/2/21 to get imp imp and/or imp HS, since instant Howl isn't a raiding talent.
#482SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0lavis
Edit: oops double post lag o.0

Thanks for the info.
#483SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 Eph
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
I have played 40/0/21, it is a great spec once you have around 20% crit (so 25 with devestation) and 1400 damage and as a plus you use one less debuff slot.

You could do 38/2/21 to get imp imp and/or imp HS, since instant Howl isn't a raiding talent.
Assuming you want SE, Mal, Ruin and 2/3 Imp Imp, you wouldn't be able to drop Howl, more like Reach or something, right?
#484SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
sappari
Leotheras and Nether prot

Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Nether protection proccing off Illidan?

I'm positive it didn't do this in 2.2 and before. Are you 100% sure it got changed in 2.3?

Leotheras was an exception, as far as I know. Capernian does proc it. So does Illidan. They choose new targets.
Leotheras procs nether prot. I tank him as destro spec

edit: just tanked him again and doesn't proc any more. But I'm sure prior to 2.3 he did. The other lock in my guild tanked too for a while and he's the one that initially tried it.

Last edited by sappari : 12/04/07 at 11:11 PM.
#485SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by sappari View Post
Leotheras procs nether prot. I tank him as destro spec
I'm 100% sure he didn't do this before. When did this get changed? Got shots or proof?
#486SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Antoine
I think he's saying that he procs nether protection, but he doesn't switch targets when you have the buff on you.
#487SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0kaib
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Syphon's proc is basically a 6 second dot (that tics 6 times), so it will not eat imp SB charges, just like Corruption will not.

It is the best off-hand and maybe for Orcs getting two 5 expertise buffs may make it the best for MH, but if not Orc then Dragonstrike is best.
I was just wondering about that. It'a kinda tough to test as you'd need a crit sbolt and a syphon proc at the same time. The weapon does not work like you explain it there though. It is a proc that comes up as a buff on the player using the weapon and then each of his melee attacks does the 20 (+modified from +shadow dmg debuffs on the mob) life drain. It works just like the lifesteal enchant but it's 100% while the proc is up.
It seems to me it should work like a straight shadow dmg attack and any dual wielding melee dps would clear up ISB procs on the mobs instantly for the duration of the weapon proc.

talking about Syphon of the Nathrezim ( Syphon of the Nathrezim - Items - World of Warcraft ) here.
#488SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ammanas
Alright, I've been an affliction lock since TBC came out first for DPS purposes and lately for raid utility purposes but I am finally going to be able to respec destro since we recently picked up a new lock that is utility specced. I have a few questions for the veteran 21/40's out there:

1. Reguarding spec, is 5/5 Cataclysm better than 5/5 Imp Immolate / Emberstorm? I know eventually immolate becomes obsolete, but I'm not at that level of shadow damage yet - and I always open with curse/immo/corr to give the tank a little room to build threat anyway. Also, I see the default build having 3/3 nether protection - how useful is this in MH/BT raiding? I can imagine it being pretty nice, but is it worth not having the point to buff immolate?

2. Darkmoon Card: Crusade - how is this for destro? Since I'll be casting CoD, I won't have be able to just recurse to keep it stacked. I was about to buy one (have a guy willing to sell a premade deck) for affliction, but is it worth it as destro? FYI the two destro trinkets I would use right now would be Scryer's Blood Gem (until I can hit cap without it) and the 40 crit rating battlemasters trinket (don't have a sextant, lacking a little crit since I've been Aff so long).

3. Mana Pots. How often do you use these? Chug on CD? Only on really healing intensive fights/emergencies where you can't tap? Somewhere in between? My guilds healing is not much of an issue, I'm not too worried about straining them with tapping.

Thanks for any advice, I read as much of the thread as I could really sorry if any of this is repeated.
#489SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kyth
Originally Posted by Ammanas View Post
3. Mana Pots. How often do you use these? Chug on CD? Only on really healing intensive fights/emergencies where you can't tap? Somewhere in between? My guilds healing is not much of an issue, I'm not too worried about straining them with tapping.
Rejuv pots, if you can afford them, are simply amazing.


3/3 nether protection is more because there's nothing else to spend the points on unless you're buffing fire spells.
#490SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0kaib
You need to take cataclysm. It makes quite a difference in the long run. Nether Prot is ok, but nothing to be excited about. It's somewhat useful at teron and I imagine you can get a lucky proc on first rain of fire hit at azgalor and then don't take an additional tick, but that's about it. Archimonde's doomfire completely ignores nether prot, won't proc of the dot at least. Or I was terribly unlucky last week, but I think chances are it won't proc. :P
The fire talents are all pretty bad if you do not plan to do searing pain tanking, but as you consider taking nether prot, I suppose you do not. Immolate is just fairly useless. Even if sbolt is a bit less dmg, ISB still makes it worth casting it instead. And no the pull there should be a misdirectoin in 25 men raids, so it's not bad really. Sometimes I just open with curse, corruption (good old cast time) and then sbolt. That's pretty safe.

For pots, I don't use any non-AV mark ones on farming content. If you want to maximize your dps, you gotta drink obviously, makes quite a big difference.
#491SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Ammanas View Post
Alright, I've been an affliction lock since TBC came out first for DPS purposes and lately for raid utility purposes but I am finally going to be able to respec destro since we recently picked up a new lock that is utility specced. I have a few questions for the veteran 21/40's out there:

1. Reguarding spec, is 5/5 Cataclysm better than 5/5 Imp Immolate / Emberstorm? I know eventually immolate becomes obsolete, but I'm not at that level of shadow damage yet - and I always open with curse/immo/corr to give the tank a little room to build threat anyway. Also, I see the default build having 3/3 nether protection - how useful is this in MH/BT raiding? I can imagine it being pretty nice, but is it worth not having the point to buff immolate?

2. Darkmoon Card: Crusade - how is this for destro? Since I'll be casting CoD, I won't have be able to just recurse to keep it stacked. I was about to buy one (have a guy willing to sell a premade deck) for affliction, but is it worth it as destro? FYI the two destro trinkets I would use right now would be Scryer's Blood Gem (until I can hit cap without it) and the 40 crit rating battlemasters trinket (don't have a sextant, lacking a little crit since I've been Aff so long).

3. Mana Pots. How often do you use these? Chug on CD? Only on really healing intensive fights/emergencies where you can't tap? Somewhere in between? My guilds healing is not much of an issue, I'm not too worried about straining them with tapping.

Thanks for any advice, I read as much of the thread as I could really sorry if any of this is repeated.
I personally prefer Cataclysm over Emberstorm, but the difference isn't that huge. Nether protection is nice on Archimonde (his fear and grip procs it, making your immune to doomfire), and useful on Theron. It's a filler talent, though.

Crusade is one of the best trinkets available. 80 spellpower is pretty impressive.

Mana pots: If healing isn't really tight, a mana pot gains you less than two Life Taps worth, that's 3 seconds of dps, or 3000 damage if you do 1000dps. If healing IS tight, and they can't spare a single heal, then Rejuvs will pay off more.

I use mad alchemist pots, they're identical to rejuvs (alchemists only). I tend to try and keep my pots off cooldown for emergencies instead: rejuv pot+healthstone (plus death coil, if really needed) is a nice panic button.

Don't focus on crit only, though. If you have other spellpower trinkets (like the Icon of the Silver Crescent) you probably want to use that instead. Roughly crit rating and damage give you about equal gains, but it depends a whole lot on the amount of shadow users in the raid.
#492SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ammanas
Thanks a lot for the replies, and yeah I have the icon/quags eye (the two I used as affliction) but I kind of feel I need the crit from the BM trinket since with it I am still only at ~19 crit unbuffed/~24 counting dev (I have 0 crit gems and I'm still using 2 pieces of FSW). I know damage is > crit, I just think you need a decent amount of crit to really benefit from ruin and contribute a respectable amount of ISB uptime.

And is immolate really that useless due to ISB? I know SB scales better and gets bonuses from SW/ISB where Immo doesn't, but shadowseer still has my damage per casting time on immo a good bit higher than SB so I figured it would still be worth it for now.
#493SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Krazen
I just switched from affliction to destro at a gear level a bit under what the common suggestion is:

The World of Warcraft Armory

Tack of a belt of blasting and this is what I probably will raid with on Tuesday. Will report results.


Also, I think the compendium could use some analysis on what a meta socket is worth. For example, I'm debating whether to pick up my tier 5 or the Grand Engineer Helm. Or tier 4 v Spellstrike.

Last edited by Krazen : 12/03/07 at 12:15 PM.
#494SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Masafumi
Last raid I obtained my second T5 part so I have the 2/5 bonus now. This week was / is our last SSC and TK raid and from now on we gonna focus on BT en MH. So it's time to get rid of Affliction since it's getting boring and to try something else.

A fellow warlock in our guild is currently raiding with his felguard and kinda beating the shit out of everyone. He wears the Solarian trinket and got the T5 bonus aswell. I do not have the trinket but would love to raid with it myself.

So would it be worth speccing felguard with a build like this Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft ?
I'm open for some tweaks aswell.

Armory is bugged but my current stats with the gear I will wear are 13/14% hit, 18% crit and around 1150 spelldamage, everything is without talents.

Otherwise I'll spec 21/40 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Thanks in advance
#495SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Zinaida
About immolate usage as 0/21/40: I see a lot of people saying how much immolate sucks, but from playing with the spreadsheet it seems that immolate is only a dps loss at unattainable gear levels or if your shadow damage is significantly higher than your fire damage. However someone talked about shadow bolt being better due to increased ISB uptime. At what sort of raidbuffed damage would you stop using immolate? Or perhaps i've missed something obvious.
#496SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Crepe
Most of the immolate>SB calculations assume 100% uptime of the mage scorch debuff, 5/5 emberstorm, 5/5 imp immolate, and very little gap between recasts of immolate. One of these conditions failing will usually put immolate on the same DPCT as SB. My empirical evidence found that by Lurker, it just wasn't worth casting (net DPS loss of around 10-20) and it has only gotten worse from there. After demonstrating to myself immolate was no longer worth it, I dropped imp immo and conflag (which I miss a lot) for cataclysm.

If you're going to tank anything as a warlock, get emberstorm over NP. Capernian and Illidian's bolts do proc it and will wipe the raid, no matter your /cancelaura macros. While Leo's bolts do not proc it, emberstorm gets you more TPS, which is better for there anyway. [0] If you're not tanking things, then feel free to pickup the situational utility of NP.

[0] While Imp Searing Pain is probably a better place to spend the points (10% vs. 8% more damage), I'm more of a fan of guaranteed better TPS than risking my pickups on crits. Of course, a well-timed doom or shadowburn beats all, but sometimes those aren't an option.
#497SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SSJones
Immolate is a minor DPS loss at my gear level if you don't have 5/5 Emberstorm and Improved Immolate. That's according to the leulier spreadsheet. If you do have improved immolate and emberstorm, it's a very minor DPS gain. That being at 1130 Shadow, 993 fire damage, 23% crit non raid buffed. I got from 1174 without immolate to 1157 with.

With 5/5 in both fire talents, I go to 1187 according to the spreadsheet for a gain of 13 dps.

Also note that immolate at 1.5 second cast doesn't benefit from spell haste, where shadowbolt sees very noticable gains from spell haste, and the numbers above are with 4.75% (75 haste rating). Without haste rating, It's 1130 for pure shadow without Immo, 1119 for pure shadow with Immo, and 1150 for 5/5's with Immo.

Whether or not speccing into Immolate actually makes that 1-2% difference worth it for you probably depends more on taste and playstyle than anything else.

That's at a T4/5 gear equiv. As you progress further towards T6, shadowbolt scales better with spellhaste. Also scales better with crit? I forget if the dot percentage of Immolate gets a bonus from crits. I imagine the gap continues to narrow there if it does not.. Also the 4 piece T6 at a 6% gain for shadowbolt is, in my opinion, the final nail in the coffin for Immolate regardless of destruction talent choices.
#498SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 zepi
Originally Posted by Crepe View Post
... and very little gap between recasts of immolate.
I fail to see how this would affect things too much. Either Immolate is more damage per cast-time than SB or it's not.

If it is more (which is assumed all the time, or whole Immolate idea is dead anyway) then you'll get DPS-boost every time you cast Immolate instead of Shadow Bolt assuming you don't overlap Immolation dots. You can easily leave 1.5sec gaps after Immolate dots and gain 90% of the DPS boost from 100% uptime if that makes it castable without wasting any SB castingtime.

So: It's not necessary to have 100% uptime on immolate for it to be a DPS boost over SB, the only and sole condition is that (Immolation initial damage + dot damage over 1.5sec - manaefficiency drawback - Imp. SB effect reduction) has to be greater or equal to (SB damage * 1.5/2.5) in order for Immolate to be usable without drawbacks. This ofcourse might require imp. scorches etc.

In addition, Immolate should be DPS boost in movement fights compared to pure SB spam.

As mentioned by others, haste scaling and +crit should favor SB over Immo.
#499SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SSJones
Originally Posted by zepi View Post
In addition, Immolate should be DPS boost in movement fights compared to pure SB spam.
This is only true if two conditions are true:

#1 - When you need to move, you do not already have an Immolate up so you aren't clipping the dots.

#2 - You have 1.5 seconds before you need to move, but not 2.5 seconds.

If these two aren't true, then it's back to simple Damage per Cast Time as you mentioned earlier. In most fights that you might think of as 'movement' fights I have not often felt I could reactively cast an Immolate instead of a Shadowbolt and be gaining much. At least in the fights I have encountered so far.

On Void Reaver for instance, I used to cast Immolate just before orb dodging, but found I can really just cast a shadowbolt as well and then move without issue. I still use Immolate on targets moving away from me sometimes due to the faster cast time (Supremus, Thaladred) if I am worried about them moving out of range before a shadowbolt would finish.
#500SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Crepe
Originally Posted by zepi View Post
I fail to see how this would affect things too much. Either Immolate is more damage per cast-time than SB or it's not.

If it is more (which is assumed all the time, or whole Immolate idea is dead anyway) then you'll get DPS-boost every time you cast Immolate instead of Shadow Bolt assuming you don't overlap Immolation dots. You can easily leave 1.5sec gaps after Immolate dots and gain 90% of the DPS boost from 100% uptime if that makes it castable without wasting any SB castingtime.

So: It's not necessary to have 100% uptime on immolate for it to be a DPS boost over SB, the only and sole condition is that (Immolation initial damage + dot damage over 1.5sec - manaefficiency drawback - Imp. SB effect reduction) has to be greater or equal to (SB damage * 1.5/2.5) in order for Immolate to be usable without drawbacks. This ofcourse might require imp. scorches etc.

In addition, Immolate should be DPS boost in movement fights compared to pure SB spam.

As mentioned by others, haste scaling and +crit should favor SB over Immo.
In order to go from DPCT to DPS, you have to make uptime/gap assumptions. Thus, if you're not matching the uptime conditions in the spreadsheet, you're not going to match the DPS bonus it theorycrafts.
#501SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PSGarak
The DPS boost of immolate from movement fights is basically a function of how much larger a fraction of your cast order it can become as a result of your cast order becoming sparse with respect to time. Jones, your scenario is that which maximizes the benefit from immolate, but it isn't the only case where you'll see an increase. You always have a cap on the number of immolates you can cast: 1 per 15 seconds. If movement cuts the number of shadowbolts you can throw in between in half, then the proportion of your damage that is immolate doubles. If immolate has a higher DPCT, which it tends to except in extreme cases, then the increase it has on your dps, as a percent, roughly doubles in the above situation. What you describe is what it requires for immolate to become better when the DPCT is lower, because it's comparing an immolate to no shadowbolt rather than 60% of a shadowbolt.

Of course, with immolate there's still the ISB uptime problem. It's up to you to figure out on your own what this reduction in SB cast time measure ends up being in terms of raid ISB... I have a feeling it's not much because ISB uptime is relatively robust to initial conditions, but if it's close you should be concerned.
#502SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
If immolate has a higher DPCT, which it tends to except in extreme cases
I inserted stuff in the spreadsheet to prove you wrong. Turns out you're right, given CoE, Imp Scorch, and talents. Compendium updated to reflect this.
#503SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Roaminggnome
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
I inserted stuff in the spreadsheet to prove you wrong. Turns out you're right, given CoE, Imp Scorch, and talents. Compendium updated to reflect this.
I believe the issue is that, while Immolate may have a better pure damage per cast time than Shadow Bolt, it doesn't have a chance to proc the ISB debuff. This is difficult to quantify, but it is certainly significant both for your own dps and for the dps of the raid.
#504SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 frmorrison
Regardless whether Immolate is a dps increase, not using or using it will only make a few dps difference unless you have Tier 5+ gear as Destro then it starts to drop your dps since you have less imp SB uptime and you don't dip into the synergy of imp sb, CoS, and Shadow weaving. As Affliction it is decent anytime.

At some Tier 6 level with another Lock and 2-3 Shadow Priests in the raid, the only time I have cast it (as affliction spec) is on RoS phase 2, because I can't cast SB due to pushback. As destro I used to cast it at the start of the boss fight so I wouldn't get a huge crit and pull aggro.


The spreadsheet models it pretty good if pay attention to OOM time, DoT gap time, and raid buffs.
#505SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SSJones
Well, I just noticed that when I plug my fully raid buffed numbers into the spreadsheet, it tells me that using Immo is a 30dps loss for me.... yet Immo is still higher DPCT than shadowbolt. I'm no math major, nor an excel expert, but this seems counter-intuitive to me and I cannot figure out why that would be the case.

As far as I can tell, the spreadsheet appears to be properly taking haste into account for the effective cast time?
#506SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Antoine
Originally Posted by SSJones View Post
Well, I just noticed that when I plug my fully raid buffed numbers into the spreadsheet, it tells me that using Immo is a 30dps loss for me.... yet Immo is still higher DPCT than shadowbolt. I'm no math major, nor an excel expert, but this seems counter-intuitive to me and I cannot figure out why that would be the case.

As far as I can tell, the spreadsheet appears to be properly taking haste into account for the effective cast time?
Immolate costs more mana per second, so you have to lifetap more. It probably also takes into account the effect of ISB.
#507SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Antoine View Post
Immolate costs more mana per second, so you have to lifetap more. It probably also takes into account the effect of ISB.
I modeled ISB, mana-cost-to-lifetap, and all talents that are involved (ruin, emberstorm, imp immolate), given 28% crit and 1200 damage (equal fire/shadow) and found a significantly higher DPCT for Immolate. This is assuming CoE (untalented, 10%) and imp scorch (15%), and CoS (untalented 10%), Shadow Weaving (10%), a Sacced Succubus (15%) and Misery (5%)

Mind you, all factors are needed (talents, and both debuffs) for Immo to come out on top. Leave them out and SB is plain better. And if you improve on that gear (especially with haste) the gap closes, too. And of course some of the best available gear only has +shadow damage and no fire. The real answer is: it depends.

I don't think it'll make a big difference either way, though. I'm not a big fan of investing 10 talents points to make a spell I'll use only every 15s only marginally better than SB unless I have all debuffs present.


It's definitely a good opener, for less threat risks at the start of a fight.
#508SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Daem0n55
Hello guys i had a question some of my guild mates called me a idiot/moron for using Immolate into my dot rotation as Affliction, is it pointless to use immolate as a affliction warlock on a dot rotation?
#509SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Chimera
Originally Posted by Daem0n55 View Post
Hello guys i had a question some of my guild mates called me a idiot/moron for using Immolate into my dot rotation as Affliction, is it pointless to use immolate as a affliction warlock on a dot rotation?
Try reading the original post in this thread. Not only will it answer this question, it will also probably answer many more questions that you haven't thought of yet.
#510SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0punkrockrobot
Question?
How much Spell Damage should I give up for HIT?

I have Plenty of different Combo's of gear I could use. I can't seem to give up Frostweave boots, even though I have Boots of Foretelling and Ruby Slippers the damage is too Nice!

Atm My Spec is 7/44/10 Seems i get more Shadow damage and Crit with this build vs 41/?/18
Guild just Killed Mag so we should be moving into SSC soon
#511SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by punkrockrobot View Post
Question?
How much Spell Damage should I give up for HIT?

I have Plenty of different Combo's of gear I could use. I can't seem to give up Frostweave boots, even though I have Boots of Foretelling and Ruby Slippers the damage is too Nice!

Atm My Spec is 7/44/10 Seems i get more Shadow damage and Crit with this build vs 41/?/18
Guild just Killed Mag so we should be moving into SSC soon
*sigh*

Maybe someone should make a nice post detailing warlock builds, gear choice, and how to tell what stat to prioritize. They should call it "the big warlock post with all answers" or "the warlock's cookbook". That sure would be convenient.
#512SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0richard
Thanks for all the immolate comments. I'm running with 4 pieces of tier 6 as destruction (21/40) and I always took the extra fire talents (imp. immolate and emberstorm) because I thought it would increase my dps.
Now I can spec out of it in favor of soul leech or whatever.
#513SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pentamorfi
Originally Posted by punkrockrobot View Post
Question?
How much Spell Damage should I give up for HIT?

I have Plenty of different Combo's of gear I could use. I can't seem to give up Frostweave boots, even though I have Boots of Foretelling and Ruby Slippers the damage is too Nice!

Atm My Spec is 7/44/10 Seems i get more Shadow damage and Crit with this build vs 41/?/18
Guild just Killed Mag so we should be moving into SSC soon
None of the two boots you mentioned are good enough to replace FSW. Since you'll be hitting SSC soon, I'd recommend going for the boots from Hydross. Depending on your gem choices it will be a loss of around 10 or more shadow damage for an increase of 11-18 hit rating. Worth it, imo.

Failing that, Boots of Blasting gives a nice increase to both hit and crit for a rather substancial sacrifice in damage.
#514SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Sooka
Late Game Affliction and Crit

Greetings.

I'm an Afflition lock who has a minor in destro(enough to hit range increase/threat reduction) and have recently managed to crest the cap on hit rating. That, of course, allows me to start playing the numbers game more intently on just how to maximize my DPS through new gear. With my guild pushing into BT and Hyjal, a lot is soon to open up to me.

One thing I've been told recently by a friend is that the higher your personal damage gets, the more crit works for you rather than pure + spell damage. This was prompted when I spied a warlock in our top horde side raiding guild and saw that his gear had a lot of +crit/spell damage gems included.

I've always thought hat crit wasn't something affliction locks should pursue in and of itself, but should accumulate by osmosis. To that effect, I've been planning to socket my gear with runed rubies/spinels. However, if the crit would do me better(and add to my ISB uptime), I'd probably for that instead.

My question is as such.. is it true that crit can start to outweigh pure damage for gemming purposes? And if so, at about what point is it that I should consider gemming for crit?
#515SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Crepe
Well, the hybrid gems may be because they didn't have enough [Runed Crimson Spinel]s to go around. Also, even for destro (which gets a lot more out of crit than affliction), gemming for pure crit gems is always a bad idea. However, the hybrid ([Veiled Noble Topaz] and it's BT/MH equiv.) gems may win out through combination of rounding errors and the ease of hit capping.

(Also, zomg someone from ER. The ArrPee-Errs are invading.)
#516SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0dakalro
There are no rounding errors, 5 crit/6 dmg vs 12 dmg
#517SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0doogless
The rounding thing only happens on the rare quality version of the gems.

rare:
2 x veiled noble topaz = 8 hit, 10 damage
1 x runed living ruby + 1 x great dawnstone = 8 hit, 9 damage

epic:
2 x veiled pyrestone = 10 hit, 12 damage
1 x runed crimson crimson spinel + 1 x great lionseye = 10 hit, 12 damage
#518SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Morwen
I was running some trials with Leulier's ISB simulator today to look for patterns in uptime:
WOW ISB Uptime Simulator

These trials were mostly to see what effects are brought by relatively large changes in raid composition and specific specs. I took as a baseline of 20% untalented crit rate, so that affliction has 25% (Devastation) and destruction has 28% (Backlash), and assumed everyone is hit capped. 20 trials were run for each situation. The casting styles modelled are UA (41/0/20), SM-Ruin (40/0/21), Dest (0/21/40). 'SP' are shadow priests. A couple of the situations were run again with every warlock's crit rate raised by 3% or 6% (representing possible buffs from elemental shamans, ret paladins, etc.).

_Composition_        _MeanUptime_  _StDev_
 UA-Dest-SP           58.77         3.69
 SM-Dest-SP           60.48         5.40
 UA-Dest-2SP          50.63         3.43
 SM-Dest-2SP          49.70         4.27
 UA-2Dest-SP          61.94         2.42
 SM-2Dest-SP          63.39         3.41
 SM-2Dest-SP +3Crit   67.08         3.15
 SM-2Dest-SP +6Crit   71.05         3.26
 UA-2Dest-2SP         57.43         3.99
 SM-2Dest-2SP         56.78         3.26
 SM-2Dest-2SP +3Crit  61.76         3.85
 SM-2Dest-2SP +6Crit  65.95         3.03
So those are some starting estimates. It surprised me to see that switching the affliction warlock's spec from UA to Ruin didn't result in much of a change in ISB uptime.
#519SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0lavis
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
*sigh*

Maybe someone should make a nice post detailing warlock builds, gear choice, and how to tell what stat to prioritize. They should call it "the big warlock post with all answers" or "the warlock's cookbook". That sure would be convenient.
Well all this can be achieved by yourself using a spreadsheet and wowdigger.com

Gear planning is an important part of raiding and comparing 2 peices of gear can be tedious at times but I find it easier to compare whole gear profiles with each other while using the dps spreadsheet. Sure you can find DPS of a single item but what if half the hit on the item is wasted when looking at your overall profile?

As for the FSW boots question using a 21/40 destro spec Boots of Blasting will give you a better dps increase over something like FSW assuming all the hit in being used (IE your not over 202). Now the problem lies with wasted hit something you wont run into till late game but it becomes a huge problem. Wasted hit devalues all your items with hit so to compensate you must find items without hit. Most noteably Haste and Crit are the two stats traded for to "balance" your gear setup for maximum potential.

It's ironic that hit will actually devalue to 0dps at 202, but while not at 202, hit is quite possibly your most important stat because of this going over the cap will net you wasted potential dps that could have been earned in the long run with a alternative non-hit item. Regemming is a nice fix for this problem for awhile but even that will become unhelpful at BT/Hyjal level when you dont even need hit gems.

Here is an example...In these 2 lists I was comparing a almost identical gear setup but the major changes between them came to the weapons Tempest/Rage vs Illidan Staff and belt.

Dement - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger
Dement - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger

Now note I had to switch items around because of the abundant hit given by the MH/OH combo and still you will be over cap. The two items themselves give almost identical preformance DPS wise however this assumes all the combos hit is in use. It devalues when the hit is not used pushing the Staff higher when looking at highest potential DPS. Imagine if I didnt swap Belt of Blasting with Anetherons Noose in the first gear list? I would be at 234 hit or 32 over the hit cap and guess how much hit the MH/OH provides 34 hit so without swaping other gear slots the useful hit on the combo would be 2... a large dps loss.
#520SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Crepe
Originally Posted by lavis View Post
Well all this can be achieved by yourself using a spreadsheet and wowdigger.com
I think you missed the sarcasm in Arelenda's post, since he's the maintainer of the OP here.
#521SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ammanas
What do you guys think about having one warlock gear/gem/enchant for pure crit (at the cost of damage) to try and maximize ISB uptime? Most guilds bring 3/4 locks, assuming one is Affliction for the utility talents would it be worth the nerf to one of the destro locks personal DPS to stack pure crit? I'm talking 10 crit rating gems and such, basically as much crit as possible while still being hit capped and maintaining semi-respectable damage level.

Looking at Morwen's post, with 3 locks one being Aff and two being destro about average crit rating the uptime is 57.43. Seems to me you could boost this a substantial amount having a third lock with tons of crit, which should in turn increase raid DPS by a decent margin.
#522SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Ammanas View Post
What do you guys think about having one warlock gear/gem/enchant for pure crit (at the cost of damage) to try and maximize ISB uptime? Most guilds bring 3/4 locks, assuming one is Affliction for the utility talents would it be worth the nerf to one of the destro locks personal DPS to stack pure crit? I'm talking 10 crit rating gems and such, basically as much crit as possible while still being hit capped and maintaining semi-respectable damage level.

Looking at Morwen's post, with 3 locks one being Aff and two being destro about average crit rating the uptime is 57.43. Seems to me you could boost this a substantial amount having a third lock with tons of crit, which should in turn increase raid DPS by a decent margin.
Theoretical modeling suggest the increase in ISB uptime wouldn't improve that much, so it's not likely to be very effective.

I like the concept though, it sounds fun.

You might want to use the succubus destro build, which has even higher crit and relies less on having high spellpower. (demonic tactics&knowledge vs backlash and SnF)

Has anyone tried prioritising crit over other stats? How high could you get a warlock's crit chance? I'm guessing 50% might be achievable, given ToWrath, Moonkin Aura, Retri Pala Judgment.
#523SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rochan
It's possible, though a raiding moonkin is extremely rare in my experience. I'd have about 42% crit in raids w/ a moonkin. If I could get the Kazrogal legs, Vashj chest, anatheron belt and gem them with Crit I might be able to reach 50% lol.
#524SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bungle
More ISB vs Malediction?

After doing a ZA where I was the only shadow priest, and I was with a single destruction lock, I found my dps had improved quite a bit compared to normal. When I next did it with a affliction lock, my dps was lower, I concluded that this was due to the fact that even though the maledicted CoS was adding an extra 3%, it was outweighed by the extra ISB uptime from having just me and one destro lock....

This got me thinking, if a lock can increase ISB uptime by 15% then they would increase shadow damage, on average, by 3% whilst at the same time probably doing a decent bit more dps than an affliction lock.. however this is where my thinking may well fall down, as Im just assuming that,

Shadow damage % boost = 20% * ISB Uptime

Is that completely wrong? Ive looked through a few threads and couldnt find a great deal of info regarding use of ISB, just discussions regarding calculating uptime.

Anyway, assuming my theory is roughly correct, and assuming the following,

2 Destro locks with 25% crit
1 Affliction lock with 15% crit
1 Shadow priest

I get an ISB uptime of 54% using Lueliers sim (duration of 300s). When I change the setup to,

3 Destro locks with 25% crit
1 Shadow Priest

I get an ISB Uptime of 67.5%, an increase of 13.5%, which by my poor math works out to roughly 2.7% more shadow damage on average. So that almost balances out malediction, then on top of that the destruction lock will probably do more dps (They do in my guild, and from reading wws parses and this thread it seems to be the case for others).

Now of course this just applys in certain cases, as if you run with more locks/priests you arent going to get such an uptime boost, and also if theres more than one mob, as you cant bolt more than one at once but you can keep CoS on them all. And of course, CoS also applys to arcane, though in my guild we only have a boomkin that uses arcane atm, who isnt always on raids, and all the mages are fire. So yeah, this is only going to apply in special cases/raid setups, but that aside, what are peoples thoughts on this, is my math completely off the mark?
#525SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
dakalro
While a bit odd to have a chicken in raids I was quite amazed at the dps on could put out given close to the right gear (quite a bit undergeared compared to me but still in around T6 level). Was a resto in our guild that went moonkin for a bit of Naxx fun. He did 1700 - 1800 to my 2390 on Patchwerk, both of us in the same group with 1 spriest, he didn't pot too much, I had all. Also he doesn't go moonkin too much so it's also a matter of getting used to. Guessing pushing 2000 shouldn't be too hard at the same gear/buff level.
Managed to reach 40.6% with moonkin, ele, adept's, AB, BoK with gear being gemmed mostly with Spinels and using 5/5 T6 so no nice crit items posted previously (damn that Vashj chest is sweet). There's also Council cloak for a nice 1.x% boost in crit, regemming for a few more %, Anetheron belt, crit trinkets ... 50% should be possible but dunno if only 1 crit buffed warlock would up the uptime too much. Maybe if 2-3 like this, who knows.

Last edited by dakalro : 12/06/07 at 12:16 PM. Reason: shpeeeelling ... and fixed spelling in edit reason :))
#526SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Crepe
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Theoretical modeling suggest the increase in ISB uptime wouldn't improve that much, so it's not likely to be very effective.
Yeah. Based on Leulier's calculator, I'm getting from 68% to 81% uptime, with the average being around 75%. So that's about a 13% boost in ISB uptime from going 35->50% crit on one lock compared to the numbers posted above (used another destro at 30%, one UA, and one spriest).

Interestingly enough, going 40% crit on both the destro warlocks give around about the same uptime, 74%. Thus, it may be just as well to spread around the crit "love" and achieve the same results without killing personal DPS. The best way to do this without regearing, of course, would be to bring a crit-enhancing group member, i.e. moonkin, ele shaman, or retadin in the raid. Of course, we already "knew" this from a personal DPS perspective, but now we can calculate its RDPS effects as well.
#527SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Bungle View Post
Shadow damage % boost = 20% * ISB Uptime

Is that completely wrong? Ive looked through a few threads and couldnt find a great deal of info regarding use of ISB, just discussions regarding calculating uptime.
No, that's pretty much correct. It'll increase any damage done as long as it's up by 20%.
#528SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rochan
We usually raid with 3-4 destro locks + 2-3 shadow priests. I guess I should tell my boys to stack crit eh LOL.
#529SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PSGarak
If two warlocks have the same cast priorities, there's no difference between one stacking 10% crit and both of them stacking 5% crit, in terms of ISB uptime. My intuition is that the second case is better for personal dps but I could be wrong. If you're going to have only one warlock stack crit for ISB, you want to make sure it's the warlock with the highest SB casting measure, so it has more effect on the raid ISB uptime. In general, this means the warlock casting CoD or CoE/CoS, eschewing corruption, and has high haste as well.

An interesting alternative, if you have a high spread of shadow casters, is to stack haste instead of crit. If your three shadow casters are all warlocks with the same crit chance this won't change anything, but if you have two destro locks an aff lock and two shadow priests, it will increase the destro lock's relative contribution to the raid-average ISB proc chance, pushing up the ISB uptime. It also has a positive rather than generally negative effect on the warlock's personal dps. Working out the numbers is a bit more subtle though, and it's much more sensitive to raid composition.
#530SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Trickykid
Based on the models I've seen estimating ISB uptime, haste adds much less uptime per point than crit. For anyone interested, the rough models using weighted crit across each shadow member match up to the ISB simulator very closely. I'm still testing different raid-makeups, but that's my prelim results...
#531SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krazen
Originally Posted by Bungle View Post
After doing a ZA where I was the only shadow priest, and I was with a single destruction lock, I found my dps had improved quite a bit compared to normal. When I next did it with a affliction lock, my dps was lower, I concluded that this was due to the fact that even though the maledicted CoS was adding an extra 3%, it was outweighed by the extra ISB uptime from having just me and one destro lock....

This got me thinking, if a lock can increase ISB uptime by 15% then they would increase shadow damage, on average, by 3% whilst at the same time probably doing a decent bit more dps than an affliction lock.. however this is where my thinking may well fall down, as Im just assuming that,

Shadow damage % boost = 20% * ISB Uptime

Is that completely wrong? Ive looked through a few threads and couldnt find a great deal of info regarding use of ISB, just discussions regarding calculating uptime.

Anyway, assuming my theory is roughly correct, and assuming the following,

2 Destro locks with 25% crit
1 Affliction lock with 15% crit
1 Shadow priest

I get an ISB uptime of 54% using Lueliers sim (duration of 300s). When I change the setup to,

3 Destro locks with 25% crit
1 Shadow Priest

I get an ISB Uptime of 67.5%, an increase of 13.5%, which by my poor math works out to roughly 2.7% more shadow damage on average. So that almost balances out malediction, then on top of that the destruction lock will probably do more dps (They do in my guild, and from reading wws parses and this thread it seems to be the case for others).

Now of course this just applys in certain cases, as if you run with more locks/priests you arent going to get such an uptime boost, and also if theres more than one mob, as you cant bolt more than one at once but you can keep CoS on them all. And of course, CoS also applys to arcane, though in my guild we only have a boomkin that uses arcane atm, who isnt always on raids, and all the mages are fire. So yeah, this is only going to apply in special cases/raid setups, but that aside, what are peoples thoughts on this, is my math completely off the mark?

I believe you are correct. However, affliction also provides Blood pact and Shadow Embrace. The 3% of extra damage malediction provides can be compensated for, while more HP and damage reduction can't be valued so easily.
#532SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bungle
Ah yes, I did neglect those benefits. So I guess it comes down to whether you think the extra dps from a destro lock over an affliction is better or not than 5% reduced boss melee damage and blood pact on a group (assuming your raid setup is similar to mine also so that the ISB uptime gain roughly equals the loss of malediction). The answer to which will vary fight to fight, and your raid composition. In my case, I think we'll just stay with the one affliction guy, simply because he won't be moaning after I ask him to respec
#533SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Bungle View Post
Ah yes, I did neglect those benefits. So I guess it comes down to whether you think the extra dps from a destro lock over an affliction is better or not than 5% reduced boss melee damage and blood pact on a group (assuming your raid setup is similar to mine also so that the ISB uptime gain roughly equals the loss of malediction). The answer to which will vary fight to fight, and your raid composition. In my case, I think we'll just stay with the one affliction guy, simply because he won't be moaning after I ask him to respec
Obviously, fights can be won either way. It's objective. Personally, I see my raid group lose more fights to tank deaths than to us not having enough dps. Granted, we usually wipe to other things, but these are the two factors we're making a tradeoff for. If you're farming Black Temple and Hyjal now, your priorities might shift.

Compendium updated: cleared up a bit of text in the affliction tree, and added Shadow Embrace comments.

Last edited by Arelenda : 12/07/07 at 1:26 AM.
#534SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bolche
The other benefit of malediction over an increased ISB uptime, is that is does also increase arcane damage by 2.7%.
#535SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Culok
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
If two warlocks have the same cast priorities, there's no difference between one stacking 10% crit and both of them stacking 5% crit, in terms of ISB uptime.
It's better to have one warlock with high crit and one with low crit than it is to have 2 with medium crit.

To simplify a bit, assume both warlocks cast shadowbolt twice in their spell rotation. This means that ISB will be up if any one of the 4 bolts proc it and will stay up for the max duration.

Two warlocks with 5% crit chance will end their shadowbolt casting with ISB up:
1-(0.95^4) = 18.55% of the time

One warlock with 10% crit chance and one with 0% end their shadowbolt casting with ISB up:
1-(0.9^2) = 19% of the time.


For a more extreme example, consider a pair of warlocks where one has 25% crit and one with 5% crit with a pair of warlocks both of who have 15% crit.

The pair where one has 25% crit gets you:
1-((0.75^2)*(0.95^2)) = 49.2%

Two with 15% gets you:
1-(0.85^4)+ = 47.8%
#536SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Shuko
Originally Posted by lavis View Post
I've always wondered about 40/0/21 spec it definitely requires some nice gear to pull off and would be a interesting spec for a lock first entering bt/hyjal with 4 piece T5 being that you really only use a rotation like CoS > Corruption > SB x7 > Corruption etc.

Does anyone have experience with this spec? And how much DPS could you push out on a fight like Teron Gorefeind where you didn't get ghosted? I really would like to do some theorycrafting on this one! Thanks.
I dont have a log from BT (ill get one tonight), but here are the numbers from Hyjal by a guildie. No damage curse ofc. The spec is for malediction, but with 4xT6 its quite nice.

RWC 1487
Ane 1310
Kaz 1513
Azg 1059

Naj: 1277
Suprem: 1281
Teron: 1205 (No Immo/SL)

Last edited by Shuko : 12/09/07 at 7:13 PM.
#537SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SAViOR
Hey there, I enjoy raiding as a 0/21/40 SB-lock and my guild is shortly before clearing raid content.
Since im destruction specced, i badly want/need this 4piece t6-bonus, but before I just throw out my dkp for all 5 pieces I'd like to know what item to use instead of a t6 item. Having 5/5 is pretty useless and there are better items than t6, but which of them is the most improving one?

Has anyone thought of the "perfect" 0/21/40 (Shadow Bolt, Curse of Doom) gear?
(If not, I know what to do tomorrow )

PS: It's late, I'm German, I hope you don't kill me for building sentences like this
#538SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gumibear
Most people will tell you to get either Leggings of Channeled Elements (my preference) or Vestments of the Sea Witch in place of your 5th piece of tier 6.
#539SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 frmorrison
The Illidan Helm is pretty good too, comparing the 3 non-Tier 6 on a 1 on 1 basis with my 40/0/21 spec the Illidan Helm is 2 dps better than the other options over Tier 6 equivalent, although that helm looks strange.
#540SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PSGarak
Originally Posted by Culok View Post
It's better to have one warlock with high crit and one with low crit than it is to have 2 with medium crit.

To simplify a bit, assume both warlocks cast shadowbolt twice in their spell rotation. This means that ISB will be up if any one of the 4 bolts proc it and will stay up for the max duration.

Two warlocks with 5% crit chance will end their shadowbolt casting with ISB up:
1-(0.95^4) = 18.55% of the time

One warlock with 10% crit chance and one with 0% end their shadowbolt casting with ISB up:
1-(0.9^2) = 19% of the time.


For a more extreme example, consider a pair of warlocks where one has 25% crit and one with 5% crit with a pair of warlocks both of who have 15% crit.

The pair where one has 25% crit gets you:
1-((0.75^2)*(0.95^2)) = 49.2%

Two with 15% gets you:
1-(0.85^4)+ = 47.8%
Interesting. It looks like the simplifying assumption in the 1-(1-x)^4 model is that each incoming shadow spell is being modeled as identical independent events can lead to wrong conclusions, especially if the incoming shadow spells come in a predictable order. In a real-world case where they become desynchronized it tends away from your model but it's interesting to note that our previous calculation is really an upper bound on the average rather than a true average.

As shadow casting becomes desynchronized, due to different specs (spriest, aff, destro, demo, destro using CoE) what you'll probably see is over the fight the average will be the 1-(1-x)^4 model, but the distribution will be somewhat periodic, with the upper and lower limits being calculable from your approach.

As far as whether or not you should stack all your crit on one warlock or not, I think the cutting-off point is four shadow casters, for the four ISB charges: if the shadow nukes can be seen as happening in clusters of four a single caster with a higher crit rate will boost the average; if not, you basically revert to the 1-(1-x)^4 model.
#541SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
As far as I understand from lurking theses forums, since damage is calculated when the spell leaves the caster's hands but the debuff is consumed when damage is dealt (correct me if I'm wrong here), 1 charge left on ISB with all warlocks firing a shadowbolt before the 1st one's reaches the target would result in 1 charge applying to all shadowbolts?
Considering at least a certain amount of the shadowbolts will be fired "simultaneously" (as in, 1 leaves the caster's hand when another is in flight) will increase the ISB effect beyond the currently theorycrafted/simulated values, and will add an even more unpredictable variance as how the hell would you determine how often such a thing happens?
#542SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Phantasie
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
The Illidan Helm is pretty good too, comparing the 3 non-Tier 6 on a 1 on 1 basis with my 40/0/21 spec the Illidan Helm is 2 dps better than the other options over Tier 6 equivalent, although that helm looks strange.

T6 helm w/ the chaotic skyfire diamond.

Go vash robe if you have it. If not, do channeled elements legs.


edit; oops

Last edited by Phantasie : 12/10/07 at 1:41 AM.
#543SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Phantasie View Post
T6 helm for the chaotic skyfire diamond.

Go vash robe if you have it. If not, do channeled elements legs.
What I meant is if I could have any item in the game, the Illidai Helm is better for dps for me than Vashj robe or Channeled elements (which I have, so I should get T6 helm).

Especially of note is that the Illidan helm has a blue socket to help turn on the CSD metagem, plus get +5 damage for your trouble.
#544SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Phantasie
Just for ez comparison sake, pulled this from my spreadsheet. Cowl and Channeled elements are pretty similar, yea you get little more crit and slight on dmg, but channeled has 2 extra sockets. Anywho, guess it really depends on what you do with your sockets and your spec. It's just sad that the T6 robe has that nice goose-egg for crit

..............................................Stam......Int......Hit....Crit......Dmg .....Sockets...................Socket Bonus
Gloves of the Malefic...................57........27......11.....19........46.......Yellow......... ............2 hit
Hood of the Malefic.....................55........36......16.....32........63.......Meta Yellow.............5 dmg
Vestments of the Sea-Witch.........28........28......27.....31........57.......Yellow Yellow Blue....5 dmg
Mantle of the Malefic...................45........22......21.....13........46.......Blue Yellow..............4 dmg
Leggings of the Malefic................55........44......19.....37........62.......Yellow............ .........2 hit
................................................240......157.....94....132......274.. ....8 & Meta


Gloves of the Malefic...................57........27......11.......19......46.......Yellow......... ............2 hit
Mantle of the Malefic...................45........22......21.......13......46.......Blue Yellow..............4 dmg
Leggings of the Malefic................55........44......19.......37......62.......Yellow............ .........2 hit
Robe of the Malefic.....................66........29......28........0.......63.......Yellow Yellow Blue.....5 dmg
Cowl of the Illidari High Lord........33........31......21.......47......64.......Meta Blue................5 dmg
................................................256.....153.....100.....116....281... ...8 & Meta


Gloves of the Malefic...................57.......27.......11......19.......46......Yellow.......... ............2 hit
Hood of the Malefic.....................55.......36.......16......32.......63......Meta Yellow..............5 dmg
Robe of the Malefic.....................66.......29.......28.......0........63......Yellow Yellow Blue.....5 dmg
Mantle of the Malefic...................45.......22.......21......13.......46......Blue Yellow...............4 dmg
Leggings of Channeled Elements..25.......28.......18......34.......59......Yellow Yellow Blue......5 dmg
...............................................248.....142......94.......98......277. ....10 & Meta
#545SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
As far as I understand from lurking theses forums, since damage is calculated when the spell leaves the caster's hands but the debuff is consumed when damage is dealt (correct me if I'm wrong here), 1 charge left on ISB with all warlocks firing a shadowbolt before the 1st one's reaches the target would result in 1 charge applying to all shadowbolts?
Considering at least a certain amount of the shadowbolts will be fired "simultaneously" (as in, 1 leaves the caster's hand when another is in flight) will increase the ISB effect beyond the currently theorycrafted/simulated values, and will add an even more unpredictable variance as how the hell would you determine how often such a thing happens?
As for the calculations being done at the moment spellcast is completed: it would make sense, it's been reported, and similar frost mechanics are the same. No solid proof though. Not easy to test, too: the window is small enough for lag to be a factor. It is fair to assume it, it is not a stretch. Feel free to test it and post results here.

The other thing you need to realize is that debuff application lags about between 0.5 and 1.2 seconds behind the SB crit. This is not just a visual effect, it doesn't actually start working until that point. This I'm 100% sure of, tested it myself when developing ShadowSeer. It is plain impossible to model it. Spreadsheets should be considered an approximation instead, since they base it on how the mechanics are supposed to work.

You can get reasonably accurate ISB data on ShadowSeer, provided you're close enough to the boss for you to register debuff application events at all times. I'm not sure what exact range is, but it's less than 30yards, and that is not changeable.
#546SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SAViOR
So I played around with some gear "sets" and I think I've found the best possible equip for a destruction warlock, casting CoD, SB and Immolate.
Quza - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger
Please have a look at it and tell me if I'm wrong, if so. (The other profiles aren't updated, the client doesn't like my WoW anymore^^)
#547SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0dakalro
You could replace both rings with Spell Haste trash ones though, just need to find 9 hit rating somewhere. According to Leulier's sheet they're a bit better than both rings you used (I used +15 dmg as equiv for the Band proc but really have no idea).
Unfortunately I didn't have time while first going through BT/Hyjal to calc for haste so I just ignored it, but overall it's bracers and 2xrings that provide overall upgrades especially with needing (at least) 2 blue gems to activate CSD so boots/belt will be Naj/Anetheron and 4 pcs T6 being too big of an upgrade to break it with pretty much anything you might think of. I will probably end up using leggings of ce and T6 chest, whenever caster loot starts dropping, long queues for everything atm , but that's just my prefference, but not like I would ever get to do another Vashj kill.

Also, seems greatstaff only comes close to MH+OH combo when you actually don't need any of the hit on the MH+OH. So if you have to use Nethervoid and Captured Storms for some reason you might as well go for Staff but it won't be best combo just best for the fixed variables in your gear.
#548SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by SAViOR View Post
So I played around with some gear "sets" and I think I've found the best possible equip for a destruction warlock, casting CoD, SB and Immolate.
Quza - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger
Please have a look at it and tell me if I'm wrong, if so. (The other profiles aren't updated, the client doesn't like my WoW anymore^^)
This is pretty much what my ideal set is, yes. 4xT6 is a given, 6% damage on SB is about 120 spelldamage worth of damage. With the set bonus, I'm pretty sure you want to drop fire talents and Immolate.
#549SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
SAViOR
Originally Posted by dakalro View Post
You could replace both rings with Spell Haste trash ones though, just need to find 9 hit rating somewhere. According to Leulier's sheet they're a bit better than both rings you used (I used +15 dmg as equiv for the Band proc but really have no idea).
Unfortunately I didn't have time while first going through BT/Hyjal to calc for haste so I just ignored it, but overall it's bracers and 2xrings that provide overall upgrades especially with needing (at least) 2 blue gems to activate CSD so boots/belt will be Naj/Anetheron and 4 pcs T6 being too big of an upgrade to break it with pretty much anything you might think of. I will probably end up using leggings of ce and T6 chest, whenever caster loot starts dropping, long queues for everything atm , but that's just my prefference, but not like I would ever get to do another Vashj kill.

Also, seems greatstaff only comes close to MH+OH combo when you actually don't need any of the hit on the MH+OH. So if you have to use Nethervoid and Captured Storms for some reason you might as well go for Staff but it won't be best combo just best for the fixed variables in your gear.
I made a mistake my rings choice, I added 2 spelldmg for the enchant to ring of ancient knowledge instead of 12 :/
And I already have t6 legs (for 100dkp, thats start for t6 xD) so I will end up asking for SSC raids in the realmforums
But thanks for any critics!
I updated my set, should be perfect now...
Quza - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger

Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
This is pretty much what my ideal set is, yes. 4xT6 is a given, 6% damage on SB is about 120 spelldamage worth of damage. With the set bonus, I'm pretty sure you want to drop fire talents and Immolate.
I use leuliers spreadsheet and it says Immolate sucks when I'm raidbuffed Didn't notice since I only used non-buffed stats, thanks.

Last edited by SAViOR : 12/10/07 at 1:39 PM.
#550SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Cohren
I don't understand why people go for the T6 legs/Robe of the Sea-Witch over T6 Robe/Leggings of Channeled Elements. The extra crit you receive from the T6 Legs/Sea-Witch is negligible in terms of ISB up-keep and DPS wise with the disparity in +dmg between both options, the extra crit will either make T6 legs/Sea-Witch on par(at best) or below T6 robe/Channeled Elements as according to leuliers +dmg>+crit.

What I wonder is where the new Heroic badge wand fits into all of this as with having a blue socket you won't need to re-socket as much to get 2 blue gems for the Chaotic Skyfire.
#551SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Methadone
I traded account and I just started raiding on my warlock. I have tried all the different specs people have talked about here and so far and I have found myself most comfortable with 0/21/40 Destruction. Kinda a n00b question, but what spells should I be using in my rotation, currently I am keeping corruption/CoD up and spamming shadowbolt...mana tapping when needed etc etc on bosses, and usually just CoA + Shadowbolts for trash. My gear is pretty decent wearing Spellstrike and similar gear. Thanks a lot!!
#552SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nas
Originally Posted by Methadone View Post
I traded account and I just started raiding on my warlock. I have tried all the different specs people have talked about here and so far and I have found myself most comfortable with 0/21/40 Destruction. Kinda a n00b question, but what spells should I be using in my rotation, currently I am keeping corruption/CoD up and spamming shadowbolt...mana tapping when needed etc etc on bosses, and usually just CoA + Shadowbolts for trash. My gear is pretty decent wearing Spellstrike and similar gear. Thanks a lot!!
Curse + Shadowbolt is the gist of it, 2 second corruption is a DPS loss. Immolate is arguably a minor DPS increase when CoE/Scorches are up - but it boils down to preference as immolate is a bit taxing on mana which leads to more lifetaps.
#553SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nas
To warlocks that have completed the Illidari Council encounter:

Have you found that Affliction provides a significant DPS advantage over destruction at all, or is that not the case? At first glance it seemslike Affliction should be able to come on top due to the multiple target nature of this fight. However there are the issues of positioning/range/los, reflective shields and immunities (would require extra raid healing, which would not be optimal when learning the encounter) and the 30 second vanishes that may hinder such a large boost in practice. Wondering if any Warlocks that have tried both specs on this encounter would be able to shed some light on this.
#554SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SAViOR
Originally Posted by Cohren View Post
I don't understand why people go for the T6 legs/Robe of the Sea-Witch over T6 Robe/Leggings of Channeled Elements. The extra crit you receive from the T6 Legs/Sea-Witch is negligible in terms of ISB up-keep and DPS wise with the disparity in +dmg between both options, the extra crit will either make T6 legs/Sea-Witch on par(at best) or below T6 robe/Channeled Elements as according to leuliers +dmg>+crit.

What I wonder is where the new Heroic badge wand fits into all of this as with having a blue socket you won't need to re-socket as much to get 2 blue gems for the Chaotic Skyfire.
T6 Robe / Leggings of Channeled Elements:
Quza - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger

Sea Witch Robe / T6 Leggings:
Quza - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger

I added 130 spelldmg (Fel Armor) and leulier's spreadsheet said:
T6 Robe/Leggings of Channeled Elements: 1933,21dps (without lifetap)
Sea Witch Robe / T6 Leggings: 1934,08dps (without lifetap)

Also I can't find a correct gem to reach 202 spellhit, I think that's the 1 dps difference^^
#555SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Methadone
Another quick question, on the average boss fight when is the best time for me to soul shatter? I currently wait till I hit about 90-95% aggro then use it....is this the way it should be used?
#556SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Methadone View Post
Another quick question, on the average boss fight when is the best time for me to soul shatter? I currently wait till I hit about 90-95% aggro then use it....is this the way it should be used?
Depends on the nature of the fight. Most bosses you can go to 130% before pulling aggro. Don't do this on prince, though.
#557SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Methadone
Thanks for the answers ^_^
#558SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Cohren
Originally Posted by SAViOR View Post
T6 Robe / Leggings of Channeled Elements:
Quza - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger

Sea Witch Robe / T6 Leggings:
Quza - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger

I added 130 spelldmg (Fel Armor) and leulier's spreadsheet said:
T6 Robe/Leggings of Channeled Elements: 1933,21dps (without lifetap)
Sea Witch Robe / T6 Leggings: 1934,08dps (without lifetap)

Also I can't find a correct gem to reach 202 spellhit, I think that's the 1 dps difference^^
Cohren - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger

fel armor+CoD

2005.99DPS
#559SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Nas View Post
To warlocks that have completed the Illidari Council encounter:

Have you found that Affliction provides a significant DPS advantage over destruction at all, or is that not the case?
I found Affliction better due to having buffed Drain Life, so I could help myself stay alive. If you had an excellent healing team, then Desto is better (just spam away on the Pally).

I only cast Siphon on the Priest (due to her sometimes having reflective shield up), and try to cast DoTs on Mage (sometimes he is immune, so not always a good idea) and Rogue (when not vanished).
#560SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 Eph
Originally Posted by Cohren View Post
Get the Council Cloak?
#561SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PSGarak
Originally Posted by Methadone View Post
Another quick question, on the average boss fight when is the best time for me to soul shatter? I currently wait till I hit about 90-95% aggro then use it....is this the way it should be used?
It's best to do it as late as possible. Since soulshatter is percent-based, you get a greater absolute reduction the more threat you have. In fights where threat is a concern but deagroes are predictable I usually try to soulshatter as the shadowbolt is in the air that would have drawn agro, just to ride the line as tight as I can. It's gonna be hilarious when I get a resist and wipe the raid one day =X.
But yeah, 130% when not in melee range is the agro mechanic. Some abilities, like prince, work off of threat rather than agro--read up on a fight before going balls-out.
#562SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Culok
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
Interesting. It looks like the simplifying assumption in the 1-(1-x)^4 model is that each incoming shadow spell is being modeled as identical independent events can lead to wrong conclusions, especially if the incoming shadow spells come in a predictable order. In a real-world case where they become desynchronized it tends away from your model but it's interesting to note that our previous calculation is really an upper bound on the average rather than a true average.
...
As far as whether or not you should stack all your crit on one warlock or not, I think the cutting-off point is four shadow casters
The simplification was that I just calculated crit rate on a small sample rather than total damage increase from ISB uptime over a long raid. From this, I showed that different crit allocations are not equal. Whether cast order or raid composition is optimal or not, a bad cast order gets more damage from more crit-driven ISB procs and a good cast order also gets more damage from more crit-driven ISB procs. You don't have to be able to comprehensively model ISB's total effect to make statements about what will help ISB.

The chance of ISB being up is the chance of someone (with ISB) in the raid getting a crit, So you can figure the odds of ISB having been proced by taking one minus the chance of no-one getting a crit on the Shadow Bolts they cast. I think you're making some comments about the fact that not everyone in the raid will cast Shadow Bolt but that doesn't affect how you figure out the chance for a proc for the people who did cast it.

While you can take 1,000 Shadow Bolt casts distributed among any number of casters and figure out how many you expect to have been crits under different crit distributions, you'll find is that the same crit distribution that produces more dps at 10 bolts also produces more dps at 100 and more dps at 1,000.

I though it was obvious that I wasn't discussing the case where different casters had different cast priorities. Your original post specifically stated that all the casters had equal cast orders which implies they have the same spec and cast spells in the same ratios. However, even with different specs, you can still calculate the odds the same process: count all the bolts each person casts over a set time, raise each caster's crit rate to that as an exponent, multiply the values for all the casters together and subtract all that from one.

Please show your math for why you believe that things change if there are more than four shadow casters.
#563SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
SAViOR
Originally Posted by Cohren View Post
when I use your stats (+130 spelldmg) it says 1945 hmm Oo
/edit: D'OH! forgot hasterating :/ sry
so I edited the sets once again.
Quza - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger 2009,33
Quza - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger 2009,30
ridiculous^^

Last edited by SAViOR : 12/11/07 at 9:05 AM.
#564SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gruturistic
Originally Posted by Methadone View Post
Another quick question, on the average boss fight when is the best time for me to soul shatter? I currently wait till I hit about 90-95% aggro then use it....is this the way it should be used?
As others said, depends on many factors, but personally if the encounter is long enough to allow 2 shatters, even just barely (Gurtogg, VR if you're just starting T5) I do it as reasonably soon as possible (as long as it makes sense of course: halving 11k threat is quite a stupid thing to do in a 8 minute fight) and then again when the CD is up. If the encounter is *not* long enough (Rage, VR for a T6 guild), I'll do it just once, as late as possible (over 100% tank aggro, even over 120% if the boss doesn't have a deaggro). Of course waiting until the last possible moment to shatter is not needed if the encounter only has 1-2 minutes left and you would never come back on top by then - use it earlier in that case.

Anyway remember it has a limited range and it's resistable even if you're hit capped - have a backup plan for a resisted shatter (which could mean get ready to run to the boss and suicide before you cause a wipe, or have enough threat margin to be able to stop before running dots make you the new tank)
#565SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Furio
Originally Posted by Nas View Post
To warlocks that have completed the Illidari Council encounter:

Have you found that Affliction provides a significant DPS advantage over destruction at all, or is that not the case? At first glance it seemslike Affliction should be able to come on top due to the multiple target nature of this fight. However there are the issues of positioning/range/los, reflective shields and immunities (would require extra raid healing, which would not be optimal when learning the encounter) and the 30 second vanishes that may hinder such a large boost in practice. Wondering if any Warlocks that have tried both specs on this encounter would be able to shed some light on this.
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
I found Affliction better due to having buffed Drain Life, so I could help myself stay alive. If you had an excellent healing team, then Desto is better (just spam away on the Pally).

I only cast Siphon on the Priest (due to her sometimes having reflective shield up), and try to cast DoTs on Mage (sometimes he is immune, so not always a good idea) and Rogue (when not vanished).

I'd argue the difference in the specs depends on where exactly your raid positions the mobs (and where you are alloweed to stand to DPS). If you can conveniently stand in an area where you are in range (or very nearly in range) of Zavious (the mage) and Gathios (the pally), then Affliction can certainly win. Tossing DOTs on Lady Malande (the priest) can be effective if you very carefully watch your timers to avoid reflective shields. Chances are good that Veras (the rogue) will be far out of your range for most of the fight.

For Destruction, I've found that my DPS improves significantly if I can switch SB spam from Gathios to Zavious whenever a) Zavious is not Spell Immune, and b) Gathios is using his spell resist aura. Depending on raid positioning strategy, that may not be possible for everyone.
#566SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rochan
Originally Posted by SAViOR View Post
when I use your stats (+130 spelldmg) it says 1945 hmm Oo
/edit: D'OH! forgot hasterating :/ sry
so I edited the sets once again.
Quza - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger 2009,33
Quza - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger 2009,30
ridiculous^^
Could you make an optimal DPS set for a character with a Totem of Wrath? (only need 12% hit for allaince/13% horde)
#567SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krazen
Originally Posted by Phantasie View Post
Just for ez comparison sake, pulled this from my spreadsheet. Cowl and Channeled elements are pretty similar, yea you get little more crit and slight on dmg, but channeled has 2 extra sockets. Anywho, guess it really depends on what you do with your sockets and your spec. It's just sad that the T6 robe has that nice goose-egg for crit

..............................................Stam......Int......Hit....Crit......Dmg .....Sockets...................Socket Bonus
Gloves of the Malefic...................57........27......11.....19........46.......Yellow......... ............2 hit
Hood of the Malefic.....................55........36......16.....32........63.......Meta Yellow.............5 dmg
Vestments of the Sea-Witch.........28........28......27.....31........57.......Yellow Yellow Blue....5 dmg
Mantle of the Malefic...................45........22......21.....13........46.......Blue Yellow..............4 dmg
Leggings of the Malefic................55........44......19.....37........62.......Yellow............ .........2 hit
................................................240......157.....94....132......274.. ....8 & Meta


Gloves of the Malefic...................57........27......11.......19......46.......Yellow......... ............2 hit
Mantle of the Malefic...................45........22......21.......13......46.......Blue Yellow..............4 dmg
Leggings of the Malefic................55........44......19.......37......62.......Yellow............ .........2 hit
Robe of the Malefic.....................66........29......28........0.......63.......Yellow Yellow Blue.....5 dmg
Cowl of the Illidari High Lord........33........31......21.......47......64.......Meta Blue................5 dmg
................................................256.....153.....100.....116....281... ...8 & Meta


Gloves of the Malefic...................57.......27.......11......19.......46......Yellow.......... ............2 hit
Hood of the Malefic.....................55.......36.......16......32.......63......Meta Yellow..............5 dmg
Robe of the Malefic.....................66.......29.......28.......0........63......Yellow Yellow Blue.....5 dmg
Mantle of the Malefic...................45.......22.......21......13.......46......Blue Yellow...............4 dmg
Leggings of Channeled Elements..25.......28.......18......34.......59......Yellow Yellow Blue......5 dmg
...............................................248.....142......94.......98......277. ....10 & Meta
These are the values I got with socketing:

Helm: 100 hit, 121 crit, 368 dmg
Chest: 94 hit, 152 crit, 348 dmg
Legs: 94 hit, 118 crit, 375 dmg



How about substituting Studios Wraps in for the gloves?


..............................................Stam......Int......Hit....Crit......Dmg .....Sockets...................Socket Bonus
Studious Wraps..........................21........22......0.......25........40.......Red Blue.................4 dmg
Hood of the Malefic.....................55........36......16.....32........63.......Meta Yellow.............5 dmg
Robe of the Malefic.....................66.......29.......28.......0........63......Yellow Yellow Blue.....5 dmg
Mantle of the Malefic...................45........22......21.....13........46.......Blue Yellow..............4 dmg
Leggings of the Malefic................55........44......19.....37........62.......Yellow............ .........2 hit
................................................242......153.....84....107......274.. ....9 & Meta


Gloves: 84 hit, 117 crit, 371 dmg

Clearly a tad inferior to the other options, but doesn't rely on a t6 drop.
#568SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 Eph
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
Could you make an optimal DPS set for a character with a Totem of Wrath? (only need 12% hit for allaince/13% horde)
oommw - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger
8 more hit than I would like for a Draenei'd Totem of Wrath, but shouldn't be too bad for horde this way.
#569SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PSGarak
Originally Posted by Culok View Post
Please show your math for why you believe that things change if there are more than four shadow casters.
If there are four or less shadow casters, synced, than any warlock's crit will benefit all four casters so a crit-heavy warlock will provide a large benefit. If there are less than four some get to double-dip from his crits but the buff overriding means you hit diminishing marginal utility. If you have exactly five then the crit-heavy warlock never benefits from his own crits but everyone else does, and this is basically okay because he saced a lot of damage to get that crit rate up so he wouldn't make good use of them anyways. If there are more than five each of his crits does not benefit the rest of the group but only part of them so you start seeing a drop-off.

Basically his contribution to the rest of the raid as a function of the number of raid shadow casters has a term of (4/x-1) where x-1 is the number of shadow casters who are not him. Any polynomial or exponential of this term is going to see qualitatively different behavior around x=5, and probability calculations involve polynomial and exponential terms. If you really want closed-form solutions I can be convinced to work them out but I bet they're ugly and I'd rather avoid it =P.

In any case it's good to be aware that synchronized and desynchronized nuking behaves different with respect to ISB uptime.
#570SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0weet
Seeing as people are posting their 'ideal' gear setups, thought I would share mine.. which seems to be superior than what I have seen other people posting.

weetbix - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger
Comes out as 2065 assuming I am using the same settings oom/eph have.

horde profile (no-draenei hit aura)
weetbix - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger
2057

One thing to note is that the Hyjal exalted ring is not modelled, so one can technically get higher numbers through Haste ring + Najentus ring but it will be lower once the proc is taken into account.

Gear-sets with Illidan staff will also scale better again once you take pots/wrath of air into account.
#571SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Culok
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
Basically his contribution to the rest of the raid as a function of the number of raid shadow casters has a term of (4/x-1) where x-1 is the number of shadow casters who are not him. Any polynomial or exponential of this term is going to see qualitatively different behavior around x=5, and probability calculations involve polynomial and exponential terms. If you really want closed-form solutions I can be convinced to work them out but I bet they're ugly and I'd rather avoid it =P.
Again, I didn't model ISB damage. All I'm asserting is that no matter what, more ISB uptime means more damage, ISB uptime is based on the odds of someone in the raid landing a crit, and different crit distributions do not produce equal odds of someone landing it. Each caster's chance of getting a crit is not affected by what other people do. Therefore, you can calculate the expected odds of there not having being an ISB proc by looking at the chance of every caster failing to get a crit. If you want to fully model how much crit affects raid damage, you need to look at how long ISB stays up but that doesn't change how you calculate the odds of there having been an ISB proc.

In math terms, I'm saying that damage from ISB increases monotonically for the odds of someone in raid getting a crit.

If you haven't worked out the math already, why are you sure you're right?

Last edited by Culok : 12/12/07 at 12:30 AM.
#572SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 demonskye
I need a quick bit of help. On the reliquary of souls fight would it be better to raid as affy / destro (43/0/18 ua spec w/ 12% crit) or 0/21/40 (with 17%crit after talents). I ask this for 2 reasons.
1. I couldn't find it answered elsewhere
2. The spell knockback in UA spec in phase 2 turns an imp SB's cast time from 2.5 seconds into about 7-9 seconds even with concentration aura / fel concentration. My idea is to mitigate the incoming spell knockback by increasing the burst damage rather than the periodic.

Hasty feedback would be highly appreciated. I will most likely post some 'recount' results in a separate thread next week. thanks.
DemonSkye.
#573SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nas
Originally Posted by demonskye View Post
I need a quick bit of help. On the reliquary of souls fight would it be better to raid as affy / destro (43/0/18 ua spec w/ 12% crit) or 0/21/40 (with 17%crit after talents). I ask this for 2 reasons.
1. I couldn't find it answered elsewhere
2. The spell knockback in UA spec in phase 2 turns an imp SB's cast time from 2.5 seconds into about 7-9 seconds even with concentration aura / fel concentration. My idea is to mitigate the incoming spell knockback by increasing the burst damage rather than the periodic.

Hasty feedback would be highly appreciated. I will most likely post some 'recount' results in a separate thread next week. thanks.
DemonSkye.
Well, in terms of DPS Destruction most definitely comes on top - and it is a fight with a fairly high DPS requirement so I would be leaning towards Destruction. That being said you may want a token Affliction for the fight, SE/Mal/BP are definitely useful there.
#574SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Phantasie
as affliction in p2, just do corruption and shadowbolts (if you have a pally conc aura in your group) - if you add any more dots you'll get pushback out the ass like you said. corr for nightfalls.

As sac/destro the hard part of p2 is not killing yourself when a deaden hits.
#575SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bandoer
Originally Posted by demonskye View Post
I need a quick bit of help. On the reliquary of souls fight would it be better to raid as affy / destro (43/0/18 ua spec w/ 12% crit) or 0/21/40 (with 17%crit after talents). I ask this for 2 reasons.
1. I couldn't find it answered elsewhere
2. The spell knockback in UA spec in phase 2 turns an imp SB's cast time from 2.5 seconds into about 7-9 seconds even with concentration aura / fel concentration. My idea is to mitigate the incoming spell knockback by increasing the burst damage rather than the periodic.

Hasty feedback would be highly appreciated. I will most likely post some 'recount' results in a separate thread next week. thanks.
DemonSkye.
I would recommend not casting UA, siphon, or immolate in phase 2. I found just corruption and shadowbolt was better if you're going in as affliction.
#576SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Antoine
In phase 2 as destro I just don't cast if the shadowbolt will land when deaden is up.
#577SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0dakalro
Well, it's not like you can get 1-shot if you crit with deaden up, 9k-10k max returned and it's easy to see if you have the hp. And while you get a crit stop the next SB cast, there's enough time, though most of the time I just get healed back up instantly, sometimes not even seeing a drop in my hp bar even with an 18k SB crit, but it's still imprinted that I move if I see crit on the screen, just makes it safe.
#578SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Shai
What also works well in this fight is FG spec, provided you don't have to use a Felhunter for devour and take Intensity. No risk of two-shotting yourself or pulling aggro which allows for constant nuking while the FG tears through the low armored boss and is getting ample healing if you have the T5 bonus.
#579SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ammanas
Alright, I'm looking for a little advice. I have used the spreadsheet o crunch some numbers, but am a little skeptical. According to it, crit is not nearly as good for me as damage (still best) and then haste. I'm raiding as 0/21/40 sitting at 1275 damage (with fel armor) 189 hit and 18.67 crit (paperdoll, not counting 5% from devastation). Now, I realize that 1 crit rating gets you far less crit than 1 haste rating gets you haste and that is what is making the results come out like this.

First things first, I realize that hit rating is the most important and I will be hit capped in the next few days (we are running TK for the last time ever tonight so I'm hoping for T5 shoulders or Solarian wand, and I am first in line for the next T6 gloves/helm). I will either get a drop that does it or will regem a few +9s as 4/5 hit damage to be capped.

My real question here... is crit really as useless as it seems? Does the spreadsheet take into account accurately increased ISB uptime benefit and the 100% crit bonus from ruin?

I feel like I have a ton of damage for my gearlevel (0 T6 0 +12 gems), should I sacrifice some for crit? And is haste really that much better than crit? I know it is better at higher gear levels because of the conversion factor, but what about Locks that aren't in mostly T6 gear and have less than 20 paperdoll crit%?
#580SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0achille
I'd personally be interested in seeing some math around the party buffs. For example, how much of a dps boost to a warlock specced X is having a shaman in his party vs a mage vs a moonkin druid?
And if possible, how much more valuable, if at all, is having a warlock over a mage in the moonkin party?

Anecdotal evidence is that a t6 destro warlock dps' is highter than a mage's, so the benefit would be bigger getting the extra crit, but the imp sb uptime is the real deal, so to speak.
#581SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krazen
Originally Posted by Shai View Post
What also works well in this fight is FG spec, provided you don't have to use a Felhunter for devour and take Intensity. No risk of two-shotting yourself or pulling aggro which allows for constant nuking while the FG tears through the low armored boss and is getting ample healing if you have the T5 bonus.
I presume thats a p2 thing? Haven't reached p3 yet, so I don't know if pets get the aura.
#582SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ammanas
Originally Posted by achille View Post
I'd personally be interested in seeing some math around the party buffs. For example, how much of a dps boost to a warlock specced X is having a shaman in his party vs a mage vs a moonkin druid?
And if possible, how much more valuable, if at all, is having a warlock over a mage in the moonkin party?

Anecdotal evidence is that a t6 destro warlock dps' is highter than a mage's, so the benefit would be bigger getting the extra crit, but the imp sb uptime is the real deal, so to speak.
It seems to me that it would be more beneficial for raid DPS to have destro locks in an ele sham group than mages. The 3% crit from wrath will increase ISB uptime, increasing the DPS of all the locks/s.priests in the raid. Mages don't have any crit-based raid synergy kind of thing.

Also, the 3% hit from the totem of wrath. Mages (at least arcane ones, I'm not 100% sure about other specs) have talents that help them reach the hit cap whereas destro locks pretty much have to have 202 hit from gear. Being able to get 3% from a totem frees up more room for damage/crit/haste gear.

As far as moonkins, my guild has never tried adding a boomkin to the raid makeup so I can't really speak from experience but it seems the crit would benefit the warlocks more for the same reasons.
#583SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Arelenda
Originally Posted by achille View Post
I'd personally be interested in seeing some math around the party buffs. For example, how much of a dps boost to a warlock specced X is having a shaman in his party vs a mage vs a moonkin druid?
And if possible, how much more valuable, if at all, is having a warlock over a mage in the moonkin party?

Anecdotal evidence is that a t6 destro warlock dps' is highter than a mage's, so the benefit would be bigger getting the extra crit, but the imp sb uptime is the real deal, so to speak.
Very roughly, one hit, crit or 20 damage = 1% extra damage for the destro warlock. This is generally what shadowseer tells me, it includes ISB. For mages this is typically less (but spec dependant).

Put mages with the resto shaman and a shadow priest, they'll love mana tide (which is a huge waste for warlocks).

Moonkins and Elementals are pretty much what warlocks want.

Last edited by Arelenda : 12/13/07 at 3:23 PM.
#584SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Reflection
Originally Posted by Ammanas View Post
It seems to me that it would be more beneficial for raid DPS to have destro locks in an ele sham group than mages. The 3% crit from wrath will increase ISB uptime, increasing the DPS of all the locks/s.priests in the raid. Mages don't have any crit-based raid synergy kind of thing.

Also, the 3% hit from the totem of wrath. Mages (at least arcane ones, I'm not 100% sure about other specs) have talents that help them reach the hit cap whereas destro locks pretty much have to have 202 hit from gear. Being able to get 3% from a totem frees up more room for damage/crit/haste gear.

As far as moonkins, my guild has never tried adding a boomkin to the raid makeup so I can't really speak from experience but it seems the crit would benefit the warlocks more for the same reasons.
Generally in raids you tend to find Elemental Shamans paired with a Shadow Priest and 3 Mages.
This applies to my guild and probably most of your own guilds.
Mages do not have Life Tap and therefore need Shadow Priests moreso than a Warlock.
By luck of the draw, us locks tend to be tossed around into oblivious raid slots.
If by chance I do get thrown into a Shadow Priest group, I'd likely trade spots with a Mage.
My guild has 3 Shadow Priests (usually raid with 1-2) and 1 Elemental Shaman.
#585SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Suggestive
You should always have at least 1 destro lock in the elemental shaman group, and its something you should push your group to recognise. If you have 2 SP's in the raid, there's no reason for the mage not in the shaman group, not to have a shadow priest of his own.
As for how much of a DPS increase a destro lock gets from a ele shammy/SP group, last i checked accounting for gear switches i gain roughly ~12-14% DPS. That's without accounting for heroism, which is about a 28% increase for 40 secs. How much that averages out to depends on the encounter length.
#586SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 Eph
Originally Posted by achille View Post
how much of a dps boost to a warlock specced X is having a shaman in his party
I mathed out the personal gain when our guild picked up a Draenei Elemental a few months back to about +200dps. This was really rough math and a while back gear-wise, but its probably a decent estimate.
#587SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Trickykid
It's not too hard to see % increase by just pluggin the numbers on top of your own into the spreadsheet. My numbers show roughly what Arelenda notes (~1% dps increase from 0.9% hit, 1.1%crit, 18 damage). On top of that I see close to 1% dps increase from 50 mp5.

Last edited by Trickykid : 12/13/07 at 5:59 PM.
#588SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bandoer
Originally Posted by Ammanas View Post
My real question here... is crit really as useless as it seems? ?
Crit is the worst stat for personal dps. (until you get to a +dmg that is currently unreachable) However, each crit increases raid damage by X. Depending on what number you plug in for that X, crit can be one of the best stats. But obviously it's a struggle to model that.
#589SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0achille
These answers confirm pretty much my thoughts, but what i'd like to see is this.
You have a group made by: 3 mages, 1 moonkin and 1 shadowpriest.

How much personal dps would the mage loose by being swapped out from that party and be put in a party with say 1 or 2 hunters?

How much personal dps would the warlock gain/loose by being swapped from the hunter party in the moonkin party?

How much raid dps would the warlock produce when being put in the moonkin party (referring to imp sb uptime obviously)?
#590SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bolche
There is no way to find the the "personal crit to ISB uptime" conversion in a raid setup. Because it depends on the other warlocks and SPs. This is why I made a simple ISB simulator. It is far from beeing perfect, but the results are very close from what I get ingame with shadowseer.

To answer your question :
If I take my raid as an exemple : 3 warlocks : 1 affliction (15% crit), 1 destruc (25% crit), 1 demono (15% crit - me), and one SP.
The average ISB uptime I get when running (10 times at max duration) the simulator is 48.6%
If I raise my crit to 20%, I get an ISB uptime of 51.8%
So increasing my crit by 5% increased the ISB uptime by 3.2%, thus increasing the raid shadow damage by 3.2*0.2 = 0.64%

Asuming that the 4 shadow users are doing the same dps as me ([dps]), the raid gained :
My personnal dps increase : [dps]*1.5% (approx what I gain from 5% crit :-( )
The other WL/SP dps increase : [dps]*4*0.64% = [dps]*2.6%
So roughly the raid gained [dps]*4.1%
#591SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Bolche View Post
There is no way to find the the "personal crit to ISB uptime" conversion in a raid setup. Because it depends on the other warlocks and SPs. This is why I made a simple ISB simulator. It is far from beeing perfect, but the results are very close from what I get ingame with shadowseer.

To answer your question :
If I take my raid as an exemple : 3 warlocks : 1 affliction (15% crit), 1 destruc (25% crit), 1 demono (15% crit - me), and one SP.
The average ISB uptime I get when running (10 times at max duration) the simulator is 48.6%
If I raise my crit to 20%, I get an ISB uptime of 51.8%
So increasing my crit by 5% increased the ISB uptime by 3.2%, thus increasing the raid shadow damage by 3.2*0.2 = 0.64%

Asuming that the 4 shadow users are doing the same dps as me ([dps]), the raid gained :
My personnal dps increase : [dps]*1.5% (approx what I gain from 5% crit :-( )
The other WL/SP dps increase : [dps]*4*0.64% = [dps]*2.6%
So roughly the raid gained [dps]*4.1%
Perfect, adding this to the compendium right away. Great stuff.
#592SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
While calculating the DPS loss of a mage from not getting WoA/ToW/moonkin aura is easy, calculating the DPS loss of a moonkin/mage/ele shaman from not having a shadow priest is a lot more complicated and really depends on the fight. It can be anywhere between 0 DPS loss to a pretty huge DPS loss. Since the elemental shaman and moonkin need the shadow priest and the warlocks don't, if you don't have shadow priests for all your casters (as in, only 1, or even 2 won't be enough if it's a fight where healers really need a SP) you end up with the mages getting the ele shaman/moonkin just because of shadow priest management, not becuase their DPS scales any better with crit, as raid DPS obviously scales better by increasing a destruction warlock's crit chance over a mage, but because both the ele shaman/moonkin and the mages need the SP and the SP needs a shaman so they're grouped up.

Granted if you have 3 shadowpriests in a raid (or 2 and decide your healers don't need 1) and enough (2-4) shamans, you can easily give the crit buffs to the destruction warlocks and gain raid DPS as a result.
#593SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by achille View Post
These answers confirm pretty much my thoughts, but what i'd like to see is this.
You have a group made by: 3 mages, 1 moonkin and 1 shadowpriest.

How much personal dps would the mage loose by being swapped out from that party and be put in a party with say 1 or 2 hunters?

How much personal dps would the warlock gain/loose by being swapped from the hunter party in the moonkin party?

How much raid dps would the warlock produce when being put in the moonkin party (referring to imp sb uptime obviously)?
I believe this was already answered.

Warlocks get at least 6% extra dps from the moonkin, and a decent amount of the priest (I'd say another 6%, given 50mp5 was 1%).

Typically mages want a shadow priest and a resto shaman, they're mana hungry. Warlocks want a moonkin and an elemental shaman. If there's spare shadow priests, warlocks will want them too (not to mention the moonkin and elemental shaman will want shadow priests). Ideally, I'd make a party with moonkin/elemental shaman/spriest and two warlocks, or moonkin/elemental/3xlock, and put shadow priest/resto shaman/3xmage.

But Shadow Priests are absolutely insanely good for other mana users, give shadow priests to other classes first. For warlocks, they're a luxury.
#594SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
Moonkin/elemental/3Xlock will starve the moonkin/elemental for mana in general, a they're probably more mana hungry than mages afaik (correct me if I'm wrong), which is why when you're short on shadow priests you end up giving the mages the crit buffs.
#595SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Brooklyn
Is there any Theorycrafting on who benefits the most from an elemental shaman, mage vs wl?

I see at least 2 downsides to group wl's with an elemental shaman:

- Each lifetap is wasting 1,5 s of totem usage.

- Elemental Shamans are essentially tied up to a SP. The SP now generates additional threat by "healing" the life taps of 2-3 wl's. There are some fights where our sp's are already threat capped (bloodboil/ros i.e ).

Add that to the fact that wl's already have unlimited mana, I son't see how an elemental/SP/3x WL group can be superior to an elemental/SP/3x Mage grp. We don't sport any Moonkins btw.

I don't think the improved ISB Debuff Up-time can justify that.

Excuse my not-so-perfect english it's not my mothertongue.
#596SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Suggestive
Actually, WoA affects the mana regen from lifetap and mana spring decreases the need for it. I don't think anyone is really advocating sticking locks with a shadow priest if you only have one in the raid right now. If you have more than one shadow priest handy, and mages get the extra one, then the elemental shaman is undoubtedly better with the locks than with mages. Though i'd guess your hunters would want one too, which is why most people go with 1 shaman, 1 SP, 1 destro lock and 2 mages.

I'm not sure the threat issue is limited to warlocks, any class in a group with a SP on those fights will produce the same effect. To put this in perspective, our SP healed me for ~48 k dmg on our last bloodboil, and healed himself for ~44 k. That's about a 1.4 k difference on threat. More often than not, a direct heal/HoT from another healer is topping me off before VE can do much healing.
#597SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krazen
What spec/gear setup is recommended to tank Illidan? I have 4 of the 5 crafted pieces (except the pants), not sure whether I need them or not.
#598SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Trianiel
First of all, i hope you'll excuse my poor English, i'm coming from French realms ...

I want to bring in this post some feedback on the 7/44/10 spec, and on the hit rating of the Felguard versus Worldbosses.

[The thing coming here is FALSE, but i keep it :]
I noticed that Leuliers spreadsheet was wrong on that point, and last nights i had issue concerning hit, Leuliers talks about 8% miss on WB for pets, my WWS (i can post it on demand) shows around 14% miss for the FG.
(After watching it seems that i have 7% miss, 1/2% Parried and 5% Dodged, summing up to 14% of 0 damage hit, sorry mister Leulier)

Also, i was using a classic spell rotation : CoD, Corruption, ShadowBolt Filling ... LT every 12 sec to keep my mana pool topped, as the only warlock(using shadows) in the raid the ISB uptime was around 41.37% (i have 16.6% crit), and according to Leuliers spreadsheet my mean DPS is around 1300 ... But i managed to make only 900/800 dps on bosses like Malcheezar or Shade of Aran (That don't needs so much moves and target switching, so i find them quite representative).

So my question is, is there known issues concerning Felguard spec DPS calculation on Leuliers Ss, or am i doing something wrong ?


I am sorry to bring nothing more than a (false) "% of miss of the FG" to this thread, and i'll try next time to bring forth more usefull things.

Last edited by Trianiel : 12/14/07 at 6:03 AM.
#599SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Fafhrd
You need full shadow resist gear to avoid getting hit by a full 11-12k Shadow Blast. Aim for more than 12k hp buffed.
When you are learning the fight it's easier on your healers to be SL spec.
#600SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ormus
Time of Calculation?

Hello Warlock-Community,

I'm not sure, if this place is the right one, the ask this question, but I couldn't find anything using the search-function.
My Question:

When (exactly) ist the time of calculation for "flying"-Spells.
Example: When happens the Bonus-Damage-Calculation (i.e. Improved-Shadowbolt-Debuff with SB // Scorch, immolate with incinerate // Shatter with frostbolt ...)?

Is it the BEGINNING of cast, the end of casttime or the moment, the spell hits the mob (+flight-duration)???

Thanks for your answers
Sorry for my bad english (i'm german

Greets
Ormus
#601SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Ormus View Post
Hello Warlock-Community,

I'm not sure, if this place is the right one, the ask this question, but I couldn't find anything using the search-function.
My Question:

When (exactly) ist the time of calculation for "flying"-Spells.
Example: When happens the Bonus-Damage-Calculation (i.e. Improved-Shadowbolt-Debuff with SB // Scorch, immolate with incinerate // Shatter with frostbolt ...)?

Is it the BEGINNING of cast, the end of casttime or the moment, the spell hits the mob (+flight-duration)???

Thanks for your answers
Sorry for my bad english (i'm german

Greets
Ormus
Answered here

Note that haste obviously is calculated at start of cast too.

Last edited by Arelenda : 12/14/07 at 6:36 AM.
#602SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Brooklyn View Post
Is there any Theorycrafting on who benefits the most from an elemental shaman, mage vs wl?

I see at least 2 downsides to group wl's with an elemental shaman:

- Each lifetap is wasting 1,5 s of totem usage.

- Elemental Shamans are essentially tied up to a SP. The SP now generates additional threat by "healing" the life taps of 2-3 wl's. There are some fights where our sp's are already threat capped (bloodboil/ros i.e ).

Add that to the fact that wl's already have unlimited mana, I son't see how an elemental/SP/3x WL group can be superior to an elemental/SP/3x Mage grp. We don't sport any Moonkins btw.

I don't think the improved ISB Debuff Up-time can justify that.

Excuse my not-so-perfect english it's not my mothertongue.
Shadow Priest simply drop Vampiric Embrace if they're threat capped, especially in the fights you mentioned. Bloodboil is very threat sensitive, and healing Bloodboil is the least of your worries in that fight. It's predictable damage, unlike the rest of his abilities. It is however, an exceptional fight. That one occasionally has healers running OOM, something which is quite rare in TBC.

You thinking stuff doesn't necessarily make it true. If you want to convince anyone here, show us numbers.

Using the tools mentioned in the compendium, us warlock sport a roughly measured 6% damage from WoA, at least 3% from crit depending on how you model ISB, and 3% from hit bonus. Add Draenei +1% if you're alliance. As far as I know, mages benefit less from each of these, correct me if I'm wrong. Now add heroism, which is something mages tend to benefit less from too: good mages run OOM at the moment the boss dies, so getting more spells in benefits them less than warlocks.

Personal rant: I think play skill and latency will be much bigger factors in determining raid dps, drowning out any measurable difference of putting warlocks or mages with resto/elemental shamans. You probably just want your best players in that group. In our raids, I routinely see top dps people at 150% of the average dpser (regardless of class/spec). It might be gear, latency, people being clueless or just slacking. But given this, I find debating 2-3% extra personal dps just rather hypothetical at this time.
#603SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Claster
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
What spec/gear setup is recommended to tank Illidan? I have 4 of the 5 crafted pieces (except the pants), not sure whether I need them or not.
Aim for max shadow resist (365) with shadow protection buff up. That was enough for our guild. We didn't use SL specced lock even during the training of the encounter.
#604SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ormus
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post

Testing proves:

for nukes: (Shadow Bolt, Soul Fire, etc)

Spellpower AND Multiplier are measured at the COMPLETION of cast.
If it's a projectile, it'll start traveling at that point.

for dots (Corruption, UA, etc)
Spellpower "locked in" at completion of cast.
Multiplier reevaluated per tic

for channeled spells: (Drain Life, Hellfire)
Spellpower is "locked" at START of cast.
Multiplier is recalculated at every tic.

I'm assuming crit bonuses (frost mages vs frozen targets) are also "locked in" at completion of cast, but am unable to test this.

I'll need to update ShadowSeer.

Is there a difference between modifiers (=Spellpower / multipliers) on the caster (i.e. trinkets / procs) and modifiers on target (i.e. ISB-Debuff / scorch)??? I mean the moment of "locking" / calculating damage.


Greets Ormus
#605SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Brooklyn
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post

...

You thinking stuff doesn't necessarily make it true. If you want to convince anyone here, show us numbers.

...

Personal rant: I think play skill and latency will be much bigger factors in determining raid dps, drowning out any measurable difference of putting warlocks or mages with resto/elemental shamans. You probably just want your best players in that group. In our raids, I routinely see top dps people at 150% of the average dpser (regardless of class/spec). It might be gear, latency, people being clueless or just slacking. But given this, I find debating 2-3% extra personal dps just rather hypothetical at this time.
Actually I'm not trying to convince anybody. I'm looking for some hard numbers myself to min/max raid-setups. We have Illidan on farm for several months now so I have Sunwell in mind where every bit of Raid-DPS could matter. We've invitet just recently an elemental shaman. There will be debates in regard to group setups. We are a caster heavy raid and normally have 3 wls (1 affli-supporter 2 destruction)+ 3 mages (all fire) in our setup with 1 SP to go around for our DD's.

Being the Raid-Leader, I'm trying to decide those matters based on facts and not gut-feeling. That's why I asked.
#606SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Ormus View Post
Is there a difference between modifiers (=Spellpower / multipliers) on the caster (i.e. trinkets / procs) and modifiers on target (i.e. ISB-Debuff / scorch)??? I mean the moment of "locking" / calculating damage.


Greets Ormus
No.

All stuff is the same regardless of whether they're caster buffs (Shadow Mastery, Demonic Sacrifice) or target debuffs (ISB, CoS).
#607SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Brooklyn View Post
Actually I'm not trying to convince anybody. I'm looking for some hard numbers myself to min/max raid-setups. We have Illidan on farm for several months now so I have Sunwell in mind where every bit of Raid-DPS could matter. We've invitet just recently an elemental shaman. There will be debates in regard to group setups. We are a caster heavy raid and normally have 3 wls (1 affli-supporter 2 destruction)+ 3 mages (all fire) in our setup with 1 SP to go around for our DD's.

Being the Raid-Leader, I'm trying to decide those matters based on facts and not gut-feeling. That's why I asked.
Fair enough.

To a raid leader I'd recommend putting the highest dps people in the group with the shaman, provided no mage goes without a shadow priest. Solid numbers are hard to give, due to reasons mentioned in aforementioned rant: it depends more on everything else. Especially when learning a new encounter, I'd reckon other factors will be a lot more important in determining success then the few % dps gained by putting the right mages/locks with the shaman.
#608SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Talosh
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Fair enough.

To a raid leader I'd recommend putting the highest dps people in the group with the shaman, provided no mage goes without a shadow priest. Solid numbers are hard to give, due to reasons mentioned in aforementioned rant: it depends more on everything else. Especially when learning a new encounter, I'd reckon other factors will be a lot more important in determining success then the few % dps gained by putting the right mages/locks with the shaman.
Generally totally right. If a shaman would boost mage and warlock in percentage the same, more raiddps will be done from the stronger class.

But in reality it depends on the encounter. For Bloodboil e.g. I see no use for me to have either a shadow priest or an elemental shaman since I always scratch the border of overaggro.

However for Illidan a warlock don't have that much aggro problems if you don't start right away with a crit series.

Next factor is the duration of an encounter and in what state you are. For learning a new encounter healers which don't run oom are more useful than dps without mana.

Conclusion: there is no recipe for the best setup as long as you have so many points to bear in mind

Last edited by Talosh : 12/14/07 at 8:59 AM. Reason: typo
#609SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pintofbrew
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Using the tools mentioned in the compendium, us warlock sport a roughly measured 6% damage from WoA, at least 3% from crit depending on how you model ISB, and 3% from hit bonus. Add Draenei +1% if you're alliance. As far as I know, mages benefit less from each of these, correct me if I'm wrong. Now add heroism, which is something mages tend to benefit less from too: good mages run OOM at the moment the boss dies, so getting more spells in benefits them less than warlocks.

I can't profess to know whether shaman totems benefit a mage more than a lock. I'd hazard a guess that you gain more benefit from both crit and spelldamage, given you have a much more friendly coefficient in the form of SnF, Maledicted CoS and ISB. Even though our crit modifier is *2.1 compared to your *2. Hit rating benefits equally I'd think too, though given you output more DPS is more technically valuable to you. It's also more conventional for a mage to hit hitcap before a warlock does in gear terms.

On your other two points, I simply must stop you however. You display lacking knowledge of the mage class: Firstly, no, a good mage will not run OOM at point of boss death. You are perhaps getting confused with 2.2 Arcane spec. When this was possible, it was theorized that the optimum would be to *burn* all your mana on the very costly but very high DPS spell Arcane Blast. Technically, a perfect 2.2 Arcane mage would end with 0 mana but under no circumstances should be OOM before the end.

Either way, since 2.3 Fire is generally considered to be the most raid-effective spec and Arcane has been broken by having it's item-dependency incapacitated. A Firemage should not have any trouble maintaining enough mana throughout an encounter, even without a SP. Given SP however, they can switch to Destro Pots to maxmize Cooldown Synergy (ie. Icy Veins in 2.3.2, Combustion, Trinket, Flamecap, Destropot all together).

And as for Bloodlust/Heroism, undoubtably a mage's biggest weapon is Molten Fury which increases their output by 20% when the boss is under 20% health. This makes Bloodlust (and afforementioned cooldown synergy) at 19% boss health a hugely powerful combination for Firemages, arguably better use to them than Destrolocks who have no such fluctuation in output.

Finaly on your point of "getting more spells in benefits them less than warlocks." I don't understand what you're trying to say... A small percentage of your damage comes from CoA/CoD but by and large you're almost entirely dependent on SB Spam to make your numbers, just like we're dependent on Fireball/Scorch spam for 100% of our output. How are you justifying "more spells don't benefit" a mage more than you?
#610SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Pintofbrew View Post
On your other two points, I simply must stop you however. You display lacking knowledge of the mage class: Firstly, no, a good mage will not run OOM at point of boss death. You are perhaps getting confused with 2.2 Arcane spec. When this was possible, it was theorized that the optimum would be to *burn* all your mana on the very costly but very high DPS spell Arcane Blast. Technically, a perfect 2.2 Arcane mage would end with 0 mana but under no circumstances should be OOM before the end.

Either way, since 2.3 Fire is generally considered to be the most raid-effective spec and Arcane has been broken by having it's item-dependency incapacitated. A Firemage should not have any trouble maintaining enough mana throughout an encounter, even without a SP.
This is new to me. My post was made assuming that mages had ways dumping their mana into more dps, which was the case with 2.2 arcane. If that is no longer the case, and fire is the default pve spec now, I was wrong. Thanks for correcting me.

It seems that this makes it even harder to decide what is better. I'll stick with my previous statement: put your best players with the elemental shaman, be they warlocks or mages. This is assuming they're not threat capped.

Did they fix ignite yet so fire crit modifier is a real 210% now? It used to be 150% + 60% ignite dot that got overwritten by subsequent crits.

Last edited by Arelenda : 12/14/07 at 12:40 PM.
#611SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Roywyn
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
This is new to me. My post was made assuming that mages had ways dumping their mana into more dps, which was the case with 2.2 arcane. If that is no longer the case, and fire is the default pve spec now, I was wrong. Thanks for correcting me.

Did they fix ignite yet so fire crit modifier is a real 210% now? It used to be 150% + 60% ignite dot that got overwritten by subsequent crits.
You can see people argue for and against arcane day in, day out.
As far as I know, <The Flaming Ruby> is raiding with a couple of very convinced arcane mages, so it's hard to argue for or against it.

* Fire specs just scale vastly better than arcane.
Arcane needs 2/5 T5 and a huge amount of excessive mana to spam AB. Fire scales with all the +hit and +haste on T6 level gear and with 4/5 T6.
Come 2.3.2 and Icy Veins (20% haste for 20sec, 3min CD), fire will be more mana hungry, but 1 shadow priest is about all the mana a mage needs*. There is no real option to burn mana for more damage.
Having more mana means that damage is increases by not using Evocation (cast time lost), using molten armour over mage armour, using Flame Caps instead of mana gems, and Destruction Potions instead of SMPs. Check the mage thread for numbers, it's roughly 0.4-0.5 spell damage equivalent gained per 1mp5 from outside.

* Ignite has been "real 210% crits" for about a year, since 2.0 came and rolling ignites were removed. It can bug on occasion when one player has two crits at the same time, but it has next to no impact on raiding.

* Heroism at 20% on mages is probably the most you can get from a heroism in a caster group. Mages have two 3 minute cooldown talents and usually trinket/flame cap to save when the boss gets to 20% and takes 20% from them.
If you really min-max though, you're probably better off rotating your shaman through the melee group.
#612SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0gargosch
We agree on a One Roll system right ?

So the win of 1% hit is only +1% dps without any crit. With a hight crit modifier and a high crit chance the win of 1% hit is alot less. With ruin and 33.33..% crit your personal damage is 50% from crits, so increasing the non crit damage by 1% will only lead to 0.5% overall dps gain. This is why crit is not so bad vs. hit.

Can someone confirm this?
#613SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arnath
There's a post somewhere around here that gives a decent amount of evidence for a 2 roll system. It's generally agreed that it's probably 2 rolls at this point I believe.

EDIT: Found the post: Quick question about 1 roll or 2 roll system for casters
#614SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gumibear
Originally Posted by Talosh View Post
...

But in reality it depends on the encounter. For Bloodboil e.g. I see no use for me to have either a shadow priest or an elemental shaman since I always scratch the border of overaggro.

However for Illidan a warlock don't have that much aggro problems if you don't start right away with a crit series.
...
Do not forget about Tranquil Air totem. If you would be threat-capped, that's a good DPS increase. For what it's worth, I'm usually with an Elemental Shaman and a Shadow Priest for Bloodboil and Tranquil Air allows me to make good use of all the other group DPS increases. TA allows for a Soul Shatter around 50% to be all I need on Bloodboil to cast undeterred by threat.

Edit: TA during the parts where threat actually matters anyway. A good Elemental Shaman knows when to switch between Wrath of Air and Tranquil Air for a high damage caster group.
#615SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 Latus
ok so ive been reading about the arguements for and against 30/21/10, and mostly i see "has less crit" and "does not have ruin" so now given this and after making an adjustment has anyone ever tried 19/21/21

basically since most of the highest end gear still promotes casting corruption i tried to keep things like imp corruption, nightfall, and as much empowered corruption as i could, while still having shadowbolt be fairly strong, you only lose out on 3% crit and the 20% more +dmg to shadowbolt from shadow and flame. not saying that this is a great build, as it is mainly just me tinkering, but im mainly looking for input and opinions and if anyone has ever tried this out.
#616SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pintofbrew
Originally Posted by Roywyn View Post
* Heroism at 20% on mages is probably the most you can get from a heroism in a caster group. Mages have two 3 minute cooldown talents and usually trinket/flame cap to save when the boss gets to 20% and takes 20% from them.
If you really min-max though, you're probably better off rotating your shaman through the melee group.

I'm willing to argue against rotating Bloodlust through melee. Any melee class never has more than 60% of their damage from white attacks and as such can never gain as much as any caster which has 100% damage from casts (Edit: which can be hasted, of course. So AB spam and Aff locks are out). Rogues may have a dozen cooldowns, but more than half their damage is from yellows. Shamans will hit the WF CD cap and gain a maximum of 0.3 WF procs per second, yellow attacks also are CD limited. Fury warriors? Arguably of the melee they gain the most, as the increased attack rate will cause an increase in WF-totem proc over time, as well as more crit-per-second making more Rage. Rage of course, translates into more yellow attacks.

Even so, unless we're talking a seriously melee-heavy fight, or some kind of melee gimmick (Twin Azinoth vs. Demon spring to mind, though I understand that has a nerf inc at last) I'd definitely not think it reasonable to rotate Bloodlust through melee.
#617SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Suggestive
Originally Posted by Latus View Post
ok so ive been reading about the arguements for and against 30/21/10, and mostly i see "has less crit" and "does not have ruin" so now given this and after making an adjustment has anyone ever tried 19/21/21

basically since most of the highest end gear still promotes casting corruption i tried to keep things like imp corruption, nightfall, and as much empowered corruption as i could, while still having shadowbolt be fairly strong, you only lose out on 3% crit and the 20% more +dmg to shadowbolt from shadow and flame. not saying that this is a great build, as it is mainly just me tinkering, but im mainly looking for input and opinions and if anyone has ever tried this out.
What exactly are you trying to achieve with that spec?
#618SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 Latus
Originally Posted by Suggestive View Post
What exactly are you trying to achieve with that spec?
well on the destro side at least having devastation and ruin since everyone seems to complain about the crit and lack of ruin, getting at least DS on the demonology side to sac the succ, and still having a decent corruption that can proc nightfall on the affliction side since a lot of the later gear procs from corruption, ie the 2 piece tier six or the ashtongue trinket, or benefits from having it up ie the tier 5 4 piece.

yeah i know you lose siphon life and shadow mastery but people seemed to think the crit and such was more important so i swapped it out

just as 0/21/40 it seems like you would never cast corruption at all, given that it is no longer instant cast
#619SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
Rogues also gain more yellows via combat potency, on top of simply higher DPS than any other class. However I've yet to see the math to show wether this is actually better than heroism/BL on a destruction warlock.
Shaman would obviously the one who is swapped out for the heroism/BL (assuming you can swap back right after heroism/BL is casted) so his lack of benefit from it doesn't matter.
#620SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Latus View Post
on the affliction side since a lot of the later gear procs from corruption, ie the 2 piece tier six or the ashtongue trinket, or benefits from having it up ie the tier 5 4 piece.

yeah i know you lose siphon life and shadow mastery but people seemed to think the crit and such was more important so i swapped it out
Your 19/21/21 build is bad, the 30/21/10 is better. First off, 2/5 Tier 6 will overheal nearly all the time, no matter what spells you cast (note it is a great soloing bonus) and the Ashtongue trinket is one of the worst BT trinkets mostly due to the short buff uptime (again, it isn't so bad if you are soloing via DoTing a lot of mobs).

While criting more often is a nice goal, you want to help kill the boss with a decent dps spec first.
#621SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 Latus
yeah thats what i was thinking but everyone was clamoring about the lost crit, but yeah im one to think that 30/21/10 isnt such a bad build since it will double percentage buff just about everything you are casting, and as you get the benefit of more % buffs the benefit becomes bigger. with a lock casting CoS with malediction, full shadow weaving, misery and a ISB debuff up your shadow damage % goes to 198% of normal whereas without the shadow mastery its just, 180% with everything i mentioned up

13% buffed CoS (1.13)
10% shadow weaving (1.1)
5% misery (1.05)
20% ISB (1.2)
15% sacced succ (1.15)
10% shadow mastery (1.1)

1.13*1.1*1.05*1.2*1.15= 1.80 without SM
1.13*1.1*1.05*1.2*1.15*1.1 = 1.98 with SM

this is also assuming one gets calculated after another and that it doesnt calculate as pre percentage buffed damage for each percentage buff then adds them all together and adds that to your damage, but im pretty sure it does what my calculations are doing and are actually multiplicitive. but please tell me if my math is wrong or whatnot cause im really just interested in making sure i calculate this all right
#622SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Latus View Post
1.13*1.1*1.05*1.2*1.15= 1.80 without SM
1.13*1.1*1.05*1.2*1.15*1.1 = 1.98 with SM
If you are comparing the crappy 30/21/10 to the better 21/40, you forget the 20% more spell damage to Shadow bolt, which is a lot more than 10% damage (13-18% is head math, it scales with gear), and the first bad build uses corruption, so has a lower SB uptime.
#623SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 Latus
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
If you are comparing the crappy 30/21/10 to the better 21/40, you forget the 20% more spell damage to Shadow bolt, which is a lot more than 10% damage (13-18% is head math, it scales with gear), and the first bad build uses corruption, so has a lower SB uptime.
well i was mainly listing the buffs that affect everything shadow and affect the entire spell rather than granting bonus of +spell dmg, also other than the lower crit and global cooldown incured by casting it i guess what about corruption makes the uptime of ISB less? its not like it eats charges.
#624SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
+spell dmg is just a DPS increase as +% dmg. The only difference is that one depends on how much spell dmg you have and the other on how much damage you do, but both are DPS increases and you cannot just ignore one. Basically I don't see what all the arguments are about. You have a spreadsheet - use it. It even lets you take just about any possible assumption you could think might tip the scales into account.
#625SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krazen
Originally Posted by Pintofbrew View Post
Hit rating benefits equally I'd think too, though given you output more DPS is more technically valuable to you. It's also more conventional for a mage to hit hitcap before a warlock does in gear terms.
I think this is a critical part of the equation. Warlocks in mid BT/Hyjal can assemble a 12% hit set to take full advantage of the totem. Even in endgame gear, theres some hypothetical loot sets floating around here that have 12% hit in full endgame gear. I'll try to find them.

Sure, mages can dump the 3 talents in the frost tree if you are guaranteed an elemental shaman. But where would you put them?
#626SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krazen
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Rogues also gain more yellows via combat potency, on top of simply higher DPS than any other class. However I've yet to see the math to show wether this is actually better than heroism/BL on a destruction warlock.
Shaman would obviously the one who is swapped out for the heroism/BL (assuming you can swap back right after heroism/BL is casted) so his lack of benefit from it doesn't matter.
Rotating an elemental shaman into a melee group (in place of an enhancement shaman) for heroism means both shamans have to recast weaker totems for their respective groups, or both the melee and caster groups go without their totems for the duration of the heroism.

It might be better on certain fights, though.
#627SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
Does the shaman really need to stay in the group for the duration or can he be swapped right away? Should test that sometime but I don't think I'll have a chance to anytime soon. Anyway unless the effect is very similar on the melee and casters in terms of overall dps gained, the 40s of lesser totem would be negligible, although if after doing the math you get a close call regarding who should get it then definitely take into account the weaker totems (assuming you actually have to keep the shaman in that group after casting heroism, otherwise your point is moot as you just swap him for a fraction of a seconds (well, more like latencyX2+reaction timeX2+mouse movement timeX2)).
#628SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PSGarak
Bloodlust is a buff, not an aura, so it should be resilient to group-swapping. In general, things with a duration are tied to the character. The only ones I know of that aren't, are tied to location (consecrate, flamestrike), not to auras. So I'm going to go with yes, you can group swap, unless they've added very special code saying otherwise. Although I would suggest that if lots of people start taking advantage of this they *will* special-code it. In the process though it very well could end up being a tradiational aura-type buff, making it undispellable except off the shaman.

Mana tide on the other hand is a totem, meaning it is an aura tied to a player's "guardian" and therefore dynamically tied to group membership. However, the buff refreshes on normal combat ticks so you should be able to squeeze an extra second or two out of a group shift. I wonder if spam-swapping could give two groups mana tide...

Personally I think in-combat group swaps are mildly exploitative, in that they're not disallowed but the lack of support makes them seem discouraged, but if you're more lax with respect to those sorts of things, by all means try it.
#629SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0UnholY_Prince
Correct, you swap a Shaman to a group, immediately Bloodlust, and immediately switch him back to have the said party retain the Bloodlust.
#630SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Roywyn View Post
You can see people argue for and against arcane day in, day out.
As far as I know, <The Flaming Ruby> is raiding with a couple of very convinced arcane mages, so it's hard to argue for or against it.
I disagree on that point, but I'd rather not debate it here. It is of no consequence.

Originally Posted by Roywyn View Post
* Fire specs just scale vastly better than arcane.
Point taken. I was wrong in my original assumption.

Originally Posted by Roywyn View Post
* Ignite has been "real 210% crits" for about a year, since 2.0 came and rolling ignites were removed. It can bug on occasion when one player has two crits at the same time, but it has next to no impact on raiding.
Can you enlighten about the mechanic? I was under the impression that fire crits left an ignite dot that ticked twice in 4 seconds. What happens if you land another crit during this time? I also thought each mage has their own ignite dots, is that correct?

Originally Posted by Roywyn View Post
* Heroism at 20% on mages is probably the most you can get from a heroism in a caster group. Mages have two 3 minute cooldown talents and usually trinket/flame cap to save when the boss gets to 20% and takes 20% from them.
If you really min-max though, you're probably better off rotating your shaman through the melee group.
Seems like a solid point. I've heard about dps warriors getting great performance with heroism/bloodlust boosted execute spam, they might benefit greatly too. This is just a hunch about a rumor, though. Then again, it's pretty hard to get solid numbers on this.
#631SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Latus View Post
ok so ive been reading about the arguements for and against 30/21/10, and mostly i see "has less crit" and "does not have ruin" so now given this and after making an adjustment has anyone ever tried 19/21/21

basically since most of the highest end gear still promotes casting corruption i tried to keep things like imp corruption, nightfall, and as much empowered corruption as i could, while still having shadowbolt be fairly strong, you only lose out on 3% crit and the 20% more +dmg to shadowbolt from shadow and flame. not saying that this is a great build, as it is mainly just me tinkering, but im mainly looking for input and opinions and if anyone has ever tried this out.
Put the 21 points into demonology into affliction instead.

You lose:
15% stamina and some max health
30 spell power
15% shadow damage

You gain:
An imp for blood pact
10% shadow damage through SM
2.7% shadow damage (which combines into 13%) through Malediction, which you are now providing for the entire raid
Siphon Life, Dark Pact
3/3 Emp Corruption
Equal range on all spells
5% damage reduction through Shadow Embrace

In other words, it's at best equal dps output with less perks then the raid support build.

Spamming Corruption with Nightfall is a pvp thing, really. In PVE Nightfall is not a talent you want to devote a spec to. Just let it rest.
#632SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0bobobo
The point is for a succubus sac, no?
#633SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arnath
As 0/21/40, is it better to pop Super Mana Potions or Destruction Potions? I feel like the mana pot has the edge here because you're gaining a little more than one Lifetap in mana and time, which gains you a really solid amount of damage (more than I feel like the 4 Shadowbolts you'd get out of the Destruction pot would be). However, I can't really do math well enough to work this out myself.

EDIT: Ugh, never mind, found the post I was looking for.
#634SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Twopint
I haven't seen much discussion on T6 locks that are stuck with the imp. Have so far done several WWS parses of all the MH/BT fights as 0/40/21, 21/0/40 and 40/0/21, and those are written in the order of DPS experienced. Am I missing any other vital spec to try out, or is this what others have experienced as well?
#635SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Twopint View Post
I haven't seen much discussion on T6 locks that are stuck with the imp. Have so far done several WWS parses of all the MH/BT fights as 0/40/21, 21/0/40 and 40/0/21, and those are written in the order of DPS experienced. Am I missing any other vital spec to try out, or is this what others have experienced as well?
I am not sure of the order of yours, but a T6 with imp I found 40/0/21 is best with 21/0/40 about 50 dps less (due to no maledication CoS) along with providing less raid support.

The Demo variant isn't worth trying for me, since the reduction in aggro from imp isn't useful since I only need to soulshatter on Bloodboil.
#636SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 Shinanigans
I was looking through the main post and cannot seem to find the solid numbers for how much +spell hit (%) you need to be capped for SSC/TK/MH/BT bosses.

Anyone have a number on this? Seeing alot of people not going any higher than about 120 hit rating nowadays.
#637SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Furio
Originally Posted by Shinanigans View Post
I was looking through the main post and cannot seem to find the solid numbers for how much +spell hit (%) you need to be capped for SSC/TK/MH/BT bosses.

Anyone have a number on this? Seeing alot of people not going any higher than about 120 hit rating nowadays.

I don't know who you're looking at that only has 120 hit rating. 202 hit rating is the cap (16%). If you reliably have an Elemental Shaman for Totem of Wrath, then you'd only need 164 hit rating (if the Shaman is Draeni then only 152 is needed).
#638SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0semi
Originally Posted by Shinanigans View Post
I was looking through the main post and cannot seem to find the solid numbers for how much +spell hit (%) you need to be capped for SSC/TK/MH/BT bosses.

Anyone have a number on this? Seeing alot of people not going any higher than about 120 hit rating nowadays.
202 for maxed hit, but you can then go lower if you have a draenei caster in your group, even lower if its an ele shaman. Helps to stack a lot of hit on a single item so that you can swap it when you dont need it.
#639SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0dotcow
Spell Haste > Spell Crit and Damage?

Question about the 21/40 spec and spell haste. I've read the OP and understand the basic fundamentals of this spec, I've played it for a while. But with ZA and the new heroic badge gear I've stumbled upon a vast amount of spell haste gear. Is it wise of me to lose spell crit and some spell damage to stack on spell haste?

My current gear is something like:

1160 shadow damage
15-16% crit without the 5% from devastation
205 spell hit
and I believe 155 spell haste

Without the haste I could get my shadow damage up about 100 pts and my crit up 4-5% while keeping capped hit.


Any help would be appreciated... thanks.
#640SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Shinanigans View Post
Anyone have a number on this? Seeing alot of people not going any higher than about 120 hit rating nowadays.
Many people (including me), log out in PvP or "normal" gear, which you don't need 202 hit rating. For PvP you need 3% (38 hit rating) and normal gear having at least 6% (for level 72s), or 77 hit rating, however the best gear has lots of hit rating, such as my normal gear has like 140 hit rating.
#641SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
Lieuler's spreadsheet should ansewr your questions regarding specific gear choice question.
#642SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0semi
Originally Posted by dotcow View Post
Question about the 21/40 spec and spell haste. I've read the OP and understand the basic fundamentals of this spec, I've played it for a while. But with ZA and the new heroic badge gear I've stumbled upon a vast amount of spell haste gear. Is it wise of me to lose spell crit and some spell damage to stack on spell haste?

My current gear is something like:

1160 shadow damage
15-16% crit without the 5% from devastation
205 spell hit
and I believe 155 spell haste

Without the haste I could get my shadow damage up about 100 pts and my crit up 4-5% while keeping capped hit.


Any help would be appreciated... thanks.
Haste is overvalued. Any time you're not casting a shadowbolt is devalueing your haste. Lifetapping, moving, being unsure on threat (illidan p2), etc all add up.

Just guessing at your numbers, you'll probably be doing better dps overall without the haste. You'll certainly be putting ISB up a lot more and helping your raid out.

That being said, haste is fun. Factor that in based on how badly your guild needs you to be doing optimal dps vs how much room you have to do things for no other reason than personal enjoyment.
#643SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0clavarnway
Originally Posted by semi View Post
Haste is overvalued. Any time you're not casting a shadowbolt is devalueing your haste. Lifetapping, moving, being unsure on threat (illidan p2), etc all add up.
Isn't this true for crit? When you're not moving crit rating does not help you at all, while +damage still affects Life Tap/Dark Pact, so you're saying we shouldn't focus on crit ever?

On a movement fight haste might actually be better than crit, because with X haste you might be able to fit Y+1 <damage spell> into <time frame> where as without the haste you could only fit Y <damage spell>. Or maybe you get enough time to fit 1 <damage spell> before being forced to move whereas without haste, can't risk it.
#644SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
More haste means you lifetap more often, which gives haste very slight diminishing returns. This had been discussed already, however it is very slight diminishing returns. And again using a simple spreadsheet will tell you exactly how much it's worth for you, at least more accurately than you could figure out with speculations.
#645SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0semi
Originally Posted by clavarnway View Post
Isn't this true for crit? When you're not moving crit rating does not help you at all, while +damage still affects Life Tap/Dark Pact, so you're saying we shouldn't focus on crit ever?

On a movement fight haste might actually be better than crit, because with X haste you might be able to fit Y+1 <damage spell> into <time frame> where as without the haste you could only fit Y <damage spell>. Or maybe you get enough time to fit 1 <damage spell> before being forced to move whereas without haste, can't risk it.


True, but every spreedsheet I've seen has valued dmg higher than crit, so maybe thats part of it.

I guess the real problem with haste is just its ilvl budget means you sacrifice a lot just to get something that is barely noticable and something that hurts your mana. If lifetap was off the GCD haste would be pretty good.
#646SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PSGarak
Haste increases your dps without increasing your dpm. For a warlock caster model, with lifetap or darkpact, the fact that your lifetaps aren't hasted decreases the overall benefit you get. Crit increases your dps and dps, and does not change your absolute rate of mana consumption, so you can take your cast order as a given and simply look at the percent increase. And yes, damage is better than crit as well, so haste being worse than both crit and damage is completly logical.
It's nothing about haste itself, or item budget or anything, it's just the warlock regen model. That's not to say you should avoid haste like the plague: evaluate every piece of gear you get individually, but be aware that haste rating is point-for-point not a good stat.
#647SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
While yeah, you use more lifetaps, remember that 15.7 haste is needed for 1% haste, while 22.1 crit rating is needed for 1% crit. It's a very big difference.
#648SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gumibear
Originally Posted by semi View Post
True, but every spreedsheet I've seen has valued dmg higher than crit, so maybe thats part of it.

I guess the real problem with haste is just its ilvl budget means you sacrifice a lot just to get something that is barely noticable and something that hurts your mana. If lifetap was off the GCD haste would be pretty good.
The spreadsheets still show haste as better per point than crit when I plugged my stats in for destruction and demonology.
#649SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Suggestive
You also have to consider the fact that on a vast majority of encounters, you can perform a lot of your lifetap's on the go so to speak, and in that situation haste's effect on lifetap is minimized. That said, just evaluate it on a piece by piece basis. Some haste piece's obviously aren't worth it (like the shoulders), and some are very good.
#650SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Vazu
Ok, I have an issue with two items and Spell Haste specifically that I need help with. I picked up a Loop of Cursed Bones off Zul'jin tonight, and I can't quite tell if it's better than Ritssyn's overall for my spec. I'm asking the end-game Warlock community what they think.

I am 6/44/11 and generally raid with around 1700+ shadow, capped +hit, ~27% crit fully buffed with consumables.

Loop of Cursed Bones
+19 Stamina
+20 Intellect (.25% Spell Crit @ L70)
Equip: Improves spell haste rating by 27 (1.71% @ L70).
Equip: Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 32.

vs.

Ritssyn's Lost Pendant
+24 Stamina
Equip: Increases damage done by Shadow spells and effects by up to 51.

Is the spell crit, haste and 32 spellpower added to Immolate (Ritssyn's does nothing for) worthwhile? I pulled a random Teron Gorefiend log where I didn't get marked and was CoD'ing as a decent point of reference in terms of damage breakdown. Here is a breakdown of the major contributers:

Shadowbolt: 46%
Felguard: 17% (This includes Cleave)
Corruption: 10%
Curse of Doom: 9%
Immolate: 9%

Ritssyn's or LOCB? Thoughts on Spell Haste in general?
#651SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Konomi
BOOTS!

I am having trouble picking what boots to wear if i go Destruction!

Which is better....

Boots of blasting
25 stam
25 int
18 hit
25 crit
39 spell dmg

Shadoweave boots
15 stam
9 int
2x 9 spell dmg gems
57 shadow dmg

or.... Boots of the Shifting Nightmare
41 stam
22 int
18 hit
59 shadow dmg

lol prob a dumb question but just a hard choice for me to figure out..... each set of boots have their own ups and downs... Thanks
#652SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0clavarnway
Originally Posted by Konomi View Post
I am having trouble picking what boots to wear if i go Destruction!

Which is better....

Boots of blasting
25 stam
25 int
18 hit
25 crit
39 spell dmg

Shadoweave boots
15 stam
9 int
2x 9 spell dmg gems
57 shadow dmg

or.... Boots of the Shifting Nightmare
41 stam
22 int
18 hit
59 shadow dmg

lol prob a dumb question but just a hard choice for me to figure out..... each set of boots have their own ups and downs... Thanks
The answer is to open the spreadsheet linked in the first page, add each item's values to your raid gear and see which one raises your dps the most. :P
#653SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Wase
Hello guys I am currently new to all this "theory craft" stuff and I have a couple questions. Currently I am a 70 Warlock on garithos and in a raiding guild doing ZA/Gruuls/Kara. I am geared decently you could say, I am putting out a good amount of damage about top 5 in gruul/Za and top 3 in Kara but I can seem to put of the damage per second i think i should be. For example in Gruuls last night I was number 4 in damage out damaging the warlocks and some good geared people but I was 8th in DPS with about 480 per second while the other warlock had 520 (was destruction with 1300 shadow dmg)

Im built WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warlock -> Talent Calculator

When I'm Dpsing i use SL >> Corr >>> CoA >>> Immo >>>> Drian Life

Right now I'm running 1085 shadow dmg with fel armor 16.48% crit 10238 hp with imp and 8388 mana

can I get some suggestions on how to max. my dps but still able to pvp when I want to?

Thank You
#654SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
Answer is to read the first post, then if you *still* have questions, ask away. The first post imo answeres all your questions very well.
#655SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PSGarak
Originally Posted by Wase View Post
Hello guys I am currently new to all this "theory craft" stuff and I have a couple questions. Currently I am a 70 Warlock on garithos and in a raiding guild doing ZA/Gruuls/Kara. I am geared decently you could say, I am putting out a good amount of damage about top 5 in gruul/Za and top 3 in Kara but I can seem to put of the damage per second i think i should be. For example in Gruuls last night I was number 4 in damage out damaging the warlocks and some good geared people but I was 8th in DPS with about 480 per second while the other warlock had 520 (was destruction with 1300 shadow dmg)

Im built WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warlock -> Talent Calculator

When I'm Dpsing i use SL >> Corr >>> CoA >>> Immo >>>> Drian Life

Right now I'm running 1085 shadow dmg with fel armor 16.48% crit 10238 hp with imp and 8388 mana

can I get some suggestions on how to max. my dps but still able to pvp when I want to?

Thank You
Quite simply, the "DPS" statistic is a complete lie and totally irrelevent. No DPS meter, especially WWS, has ever come up with a good way of measuring sustained DPS.
They generally work by taking your damage, and dividing it by your "in-combat" time. The problem is, this "in-combat" time is a totally fudged hack. It's the worst on gruul where everyone stops doing anything during shatters--your dots continue to tick so the parse reads you as in combat, but no one else. The result is that, while your damage is flatly higher because of the dots, your dps is flatly lower. This is true of any movement fight, but at your content level Gruul is the one where you see it the most.
Moral of the story, only pay attention to damage, and never to any official DPS statistic. There are ways of cheesing it to increase your listed dps, but most of them end up with you doing less damage, not more.
#656SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0clavarnway
Disregard anything that says "DPS" on it, Affliction specs (which at your gear level is what Warlocks should be mostly) suffer the most because of what was said above. Just look at total damage done in relation to the other people. That's your role.
#657SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Trickykid
"Average DPS" on WWS fixes the concerns with Affliction "Effective DPS". It takes total damage divided by total time alive for the fight which includes movement time.
#658SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kobal
Something completely unrelated...

On which fights - if any - do the 0/21/40 warlocks in your raid (have to) produce the Imp to buff raid hp? This does not count the one lock in the MT group that may have to bite the bullet because the affliction warlock(s) are unavailable for the night.

We had a discussion in my raid very recently on this topic, and I would like to hear outside opinions.
#659SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krazen
Originally Posted by Kobal View Post
Something completely unrelated...

On which fights - if any - do the 0/21/40 warlocks in your raid (have to) produce the Imp to buff raid hp? This does not count the one lock in the MT group that may have to bite the bullet because the affliction warlock(s) are unavailable for the night.

We had a discussion in my raid very recently on this topic, and I would like to hear outside opinions.
Najentus is the only fight where this should be necessary, IMO, and only if you have spellfire mages running around.
#660SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0richard
Seconding Najentus, but can do without if your mages have decent gear. Possibly Bloodboil if you get stuck in a mage soaking group. It won't make or break the fight but it's worth losing 15% shadow damage over especially since you easily get threatcapped without it anyway.
#661SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0kunksmoor
There was an Illidan tanking gear question before.

I don't think there is a need for full sr. I went through ally my last months wws parses to check the exact numbers. I always go with 4 crafted parts(excl the leggings) + neck which leaves me at 321 sr buffed and lets me keep 4 t6. I never got hit for more than 8400 (luck?). In most cases the max hit for the entire fight doesn't exeed 7.5k. It also allowes me maintain a very decent dps through entire fight and aggro for the demon phase so everyone in reach can nuke their hearts out without any worries. Also, I have never died to shadowblasts when tanking(credits to the healers), have chugged a hs/healthpot on rare occasions to be on the safe side though.

Am I the only one that dares to wear less than full sr? What's the theoretical chance for me to get a completely nonresisted hit? I remember getting a 10k+ max hit a couple of months ago during learning the fight when i tried tanking without the neck(281 sr).
#662SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
With maxed resist afaik you have 1% chance to take full damage. Any less resistance and that chance goes up.
#663SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rochan
Originally Posted by kunksmoor View Post
There was an Illidan tanking gear question before.

I don't think there is a need for full sr. I went through ally my last months wws parses to check the exact numbers. I always go with 4 crafted parts(excl the leggings) + neck which leaves me at 321 sr buffed and lets me keep 4 t6. I never got hit for more than 8400 (luck?). In most cases the max hit for the entire fight doesn't exeed 7.5k. It also allowes me maintain a very decent dps through entire fight and aggro for the demon phase so everyone in reach can nuke their hearts out without any worries. Also, I have never died to shadowblasts when tanking(credits to the healers), have chugged a hs/healthpot on rare occasions to be on the safe side though.

Am I the only one that dares to wear less than full sr? What's the theoretical chance for me to get a completely nonresisted hit? I remember getting a 10k+ max hit a couple of months ago during learning the fight when i tried tanking without the neck(281 sr).
There's no reason not to wear max SR. It's not really a DPS race fight so I wouldn't worry about that. I can't remember that max hit from the shadowblast, but it was probably around 10k unresisted.
#664SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
dakalro
Afaik in TBC 248 resist buffed removes any chance of ever taking a full hit, at least so it was theorized in some thread around here, prolly too well burried to even try to dig it up
Also, I don't use quite maxed SR but keep 4 pcs t6, 194 hit (Scryer Bloodgem ftw ))) ) but also getting paid to respec demo each week so really can't comment that much since I got it easy, as in I do whatever it takes to not die, my dps is irrelevant in a 25 min enrage fight.

Last edited by dakalro : 12/18/07 at 12:47 PM.
#665SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Dreadnor12
Ello everybody.

I have a question, and my guild leader recommended me to these forums. Its been a long thread, and i must admit i didn't look at every page.. Nevertheless, i have a question regarding dmg, crit, & consumables. At the moment, i am Destruction (3/5 tier 6, waiting for the 4th piece ^_^).

W/ dmg gear, i have +1302 (+1382 shadow dmg when blessings deck is procced fully) shadow dmg, 28% chance crit (self buffed, no consumables)
W/ crit gear, i have +1234 shadow dmg, 32.06% chance to crit (self buffed, no consumables)

At my current situation, i have many choices when it comes to consumables.
Ultimately, the questions comes down to A) whats the healthiest balance of crit/dmg for a destruction warlock? and B) which consumables result in the most benefit to dmg output? I have access to:

1) +20 crit rating food (skullfish soup)
or 2) +23 spell dmg food (blackened basilisk)

2) +23 crit & dmg elixir (Adpet elixir)
or +80 spell dmg (Flask of Pure Death)

I'm hoping somebody here has experience with the topic of dmg & crit, and consumables. I would've started my own thread, however i have to post 10 times in public forums to even do so.
#666SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Evidicus
What I've experienced recently is that a high crit rate (30% or so) can actually be detrimental on some fights unless you have the benefit of not only Salvation but also the Tranquil Air totem. I know I don't always get the benefit of the uber caster group (shadow priest and elemental shaman), and even if I did I would get a 3% crit bonus to go along with TA anyway. I know I plan on swapping out gear to actually lower my crit to about 25%-27% or so, which should also buff my spell damage by a fair amount. This should maximize not only my personal DPS but my ISB contribution as well (can't very well keep ISB up if you can't cast Shadow Bolts because of threat spikes).

Given that, I would suggest wearing your damage gear and using damage consumables. I know that is what I plan on doing.
#667SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Trickykid
Originally Posted by Dreadnor12 View Post
Ultimately, the questions comes down to A) whats the healthiest balance of crit/dmg for a destruction warlock? and B) which consumables result in the most benefit to dmg output?
I recommend checking the spreadsheet for concrete answers regarding stat choices. However the options you're deciding between trade more spell damage for less crit rating. The original post also has a "general" guideline for ordering stat values and spell damage will almost always beat crit rating point for point.
#668SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Idk
Haste undervalued for affliction locks?

My question: how accurately is haste rating modeled for affliction locks on a stand-and-cast fight using the Leulier spreadsheet? It's a long post, you've been warned.

The Leulier spreadsheet determines overall damage by calculating ratios of spells cast instead of developing a casting timeline (which some might call a casting rotation). According to the spreadsheet, spell haste simply reduces the cast time of shadowbolt, thereby increasing the number of shadowbolts that are cast relative to other spells that are cast.

However, I believe that faster shadowbolts may have a more pronounced effect for an affliction lock who uses shadowbolts as a filler between dot casts. It's widely accepted that a warlock should constantly be casting.. so if a dot will not expire before the casting time for that dot is up, then it's best to use a shadowbolt to fill until the dot has expired. It seems to me that faster shadowbolts should reduce the average time between when a dot ends and when a dot is refreshed.

Example: Assume that siphon life will expire in 1s. The warlock casts shadowbolt which takes 2.5s to cast. After 1s siphon life will expire but the warlock has 1.5s of shadowbolt cast left. When the shadowbolt is cast the warlock refreshes siphon life. If the warlock's shadowbolt takes 2.4s to cast, then the period of time when siphon life is down is only 1.4s instead of 1.5s.

I couldn't think of a way of integrating this change into the spreadsheet since I don't know how pronounced it is. I suspect it may be something to the effect of total haste increases your average dot uptime by the same percentage that it reduces spell cast time (this can't be true because otherwise you could get to 100% uptime with a reasonable amount of haste which just isn't possible).

I wrote a casting simulator to get an idea of the magnitude of the effect. It simulates casts over a given period of time. It works using a simple priority system.. if ua isn't up, cast it.. if ua is up but will end in less than 1.5+lag seconds, recast it.. if corruption isn't up, cast it.. if sl isn't up, cast it.. if everything else is up, then cast a shadowbolt.

I created a simulator because it's hard to model the effect of resists on a casting cycle.. without resists you would always cast corruption immediately after UA. Resists will break up this "cycle" and provide more accurate results.

The following conditions are set:

.1s of lag
2.5s base shadowbolt before haste
casting priority: ua > corr > sl > sb
no lifetap / dark pact included (this mucks things up a bit, I realize)
each fight simulation is 600s (10 mins)
1800 fights simulated for each % of haste from 0 to 10

Format of the results:

Haste %
UA uptime as a percent
Co uptime as a percent
SL uptime as a percent
shadowbolts cast in a 600s time period

Haste: 0.0
UA up: 90.6
Co up: 90.6
SL up: 94.6
SBs: 179.0

Haste: 1.0
UA up: 91.3
Co up: 91.3
SL up: 95.2
SBs: 181.0

Haste: 2.0
UA up: 92.1
Co up: 92.0
SL up: 95.9
SBs: 182.0

Haste: 3.0
UA up: 92.8
Co up: 92.8
SL up: 96.5
SBs: 184.0

Haste: 4.0
UA up: 93.6
Co up: 93.5
SL up: 93.5
SBs: 185.0

Haste: 5.0
UA up: 94.3
Co up: 94.3
SL up: 94.3
SBs: 187.0

Haste: 6.0
UA up: 90.7
Co up: 90.5
SL up: 94.4
SBs: 190.0

Haste: 7.0
UA up: 91.4
Co up: 91.2
SL up: 91.8
SBs: 192.0

Haste: 8.0
UA up: 92.1
Co up: 92.0
SL up: 92.5
SBs: 194.0

Haste: 9.0
UA up: 92.9
Co up: 92.8
SL up: 93.4
SBs: 197.0

Haste: 10.0
UA up: 93.6
Co up: 93.5
SL up: 93.6
SBs: 197.0

The number of shadowbolts increases regardless of the amount of additional haste. As a trend, uptime of the dots increases with additional haste until 5% and drops down to the 0% haste uptime levels around 6% haste (probably because of the constant .1s lag). 5% haste seems to be about the sweet spot for these conditions.. with a 4.4% increase in number of shadowbolts and a 4.1% increase in UA/Co uptime.

Doing some back-of-the-envelope math.. let's say a warlock does 50% damage from shadowbolts, 20% from UA, 20% from corruption, and 10% from SL. The spreadsheet would count 5% haste as 5% more shadowbolt damage (slightly less since the time gap between life taps will be slightly less)... so 5% haste would be a 2.5% increase in total damage. If we use the numbers generated from the simulation and count additional uptime as a linear increase in damage, then 5% haste would increase overall dps by 3.84%.

Like I've said, it's a crude estimate and the numbers are likely to change when factoring in ISB, nightfall, curses, and taps, but I do believe it's significant enough to try to somehow incorporate into the spreadsheet. My hunch is that spell haste is undervalued for affliction locks on the Leulier spreadsheet by 25-50%.

Thoughts?
#669SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PSGarak
Currently DoT-gap is modeled as a single constant parameter rather than a calculated function, so if you really think it changes that much you could fiddle with the number itself as you get better haste. Your models provide a good baseline for what numbers to toss in. The DoT-gap probably could be modeled as a calculated paramter if you wanted to. A first approximation would be one-half of shadowbolt cast time, a more complicated model would probably include DoT resist rates. With the new casting mechanics the DoT-gap probably is a result of casting cycles whereas it used to be a result of human lag time, so its worth looking into.

In a realistic situation I suspect that it's appropriately undervalued because DoTs (aside from immo/UA) can be cast while mobile, which precludes shadowbolt clipping anyways. Of course, the spreadsheet is intended only to model brick-wall dps anyways so it's probably something that should be worked on.

I'm still a little fuzzy on 2.3 casting mechanics--does the human error factor into lag? Or does some sort of queue system deal away with that entirely if you're within some acceptable margin?
#670SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Idk
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
I'm still a little fuzzy on 2.3 casting mechanics--does the human error factor into lag? Or does some sort of queue system deal away with that entirely if you're within some acceptable margin?
I've wondered the same thing.

The other thing that I've wondered about is the effect of haste on unstable affliction.. I've never understood the haste mechanic well enough to wrap my head around this. I know that spell haste doesn't affect the GCD, so in perfect conditions reducing the cast time of UA doesn't help since you're limited by the GCD. However, if lag makes your UA effectively a 1.6s cast is there any value in reducing the UA cast time to 1.4s so that it's 1.5s with lag? I guess the question can better be phrased: are cast times and the GCD both affected by lag or just cast times?
#671SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bandoer
Does your model account for Damage Per Cast Time loss at the end of the fight? i.e. you should not recast Corruption with 8 sec left in the fight and whatnot. On a 600 sec fight that can be a percentage or two uptime discrpancy. Not that I think uptime is that important anyway.

As an aside, regarding the OP, I think saying to "maximize your Damage Per Cast Time" is materially different than the tip under affliction that says something like "get all dots up and then shadowbolt". :P
#672SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
My question: how accurately is haste rating modeled for affliction locks on a stand-and-cast fight using the Leulier spreadsheet? It's a long post, you've been warned.

The Leulier spreadsheet determines overall damage by calculating ratios of spells cast instead of developing a casting timeline (which some might call a casting rotation). According to the spreadsheet, spell haste simply reduces the cast time of shadowbolt, thereby increasing the number of shadowbolts that are cast relative to other spells that are cast.
...

Like I've said, it's a crude estimate and the numbers are likely to change when factoring in ISB, nightfall, curses, and taps, but I do believe it's significant enough to try to somehow incorporate into the spreadsheet. My hunch is that spell haste is undervalued for affliction locks on the Leulier spreadsheet by 25-50%.

Thoughts?
My thoughts?

For me as a destro lock who spams Shadowbolt, haste barely beats +damage, and I won't stack too much of it. After the first minute I basically have a LT + 4xSB rotation, and haste doesn't speed up that lifetap.

As affliction, nearly half the time you're casting spells that don't even benefit from haste. Most affliction warlocks also use Immolate, which does not benefit either.

Haste is nice because it makes your spells land faster. It's convenient when fearing, banishing, and in 5 mans. But for consistent dps on bosses, haste sucks compared to other stats for affliction. And most haste pieces have just that: haste and +damage. No hit or crit.

Although I have to admit, hit is a tad overrated as wel, on the end game gear. I'm currently trying to find ways of ditching my excessive +hit, since I'm far over the cap with an elemental shaman.
#673SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Idk
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
My thoughts?

For me as a destro lock who spams Shadowbolt, haste barely beats +damage, and I won't stack too much of it. After the first minute I basically have a LT + 4xSB rotation, and haste doesn't speed up that lifetap.
Did you not read my post? It's about the effect of haste on filler spells between dot casts particularly applying to affliction locks.. clearly this doesn't apply to destruction locks because most destro locks don't use dots. I should have specified that I was looking for thoughts on the math of the model, not just general opinions about playstyle.

As affliction, nearly half the time you're casting spells that don't even benefit from haste.
The point of my post is that spells that aren't traditionally affected by haste (UA, Co, and SL) ARE affected by haste.. not because their cast times are reduced but because the average amount of time between dot end to dot refresh is shorter because of the shorter cast of the filler. The model is a simplified demonstration of this.

But for consistent dps on bosses, haste sucks compared to other stats for affliction. And most haste pieces have just that: haste and +damage. No hit or crit.
This is such a useless statement.. saying one stat "sucks" means almost nothing. I will agree that spell damage and spell hit are more powerful stats than spell haste for an affliction lock.. I don't think that anyone is disputing that. The question is: by how much? The game gives us a fixed number of items with a fixed set of stats. By understanding the value of 1 point of X stat to overall damage done we can get an idea of how to choose one piece of gear over another. Obviously I can't just take every piece of gear that has spell hit and spell damage on it because I'll be well over the hit cap. So I have to find the best compromise of other stats. The quintessential example at my gear level (and progression on my server) is the Loop of Cursed Bones vs. Vindicator's Pendant of Conquest.

Last edited by Idk : 12/18/07 at 6:02 PM.
#674SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Idk
Originally Posted by Bandoer View Post
Does your model account for Damage Per Cast Time loss at the end of the fight? i.e. you should not recast Corruption with 8 sec left in the fight and whatnot. On a 600 sec fight that can be a percentage or two uptime discrpancy. Not that I think uptime is that important anyway.
No, it doesn't account for exceptions in the last 30 seconds of the fight.. that's because the model is intended to find a realistic amount of dot gap given lag and resists. Since the same rules apply for 0% haste up through 10% haste, it shouldn't matter how the last 30 seconds are handled. As for the effectiveness of haste, one could argue that haste is particularly valuable because of the chance of getting just 1 more shadowbolt in before the kill once you hit the "stop casting dots, start spamming sb" phase.
#675SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 frmorrison
Without accounting for the Felguard, Cursed Bones is better overall for any spec vs Ritssyn's.
The version 1.17 Warlock spreadsheet accounts for the extra 11 AP the Felguard gains when it gives stat weights.

In addition, spell haste makes 2 Tier 5 stronger (since you cast more SB in the same amount of time).


It is up to you which is better, but it is a close call either way.
#676SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Idk
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Without accounting for the Felguard, Cursed Bones is better overall for any spec vs Ritssyn's.
The version 1.17 Warlock spreadsheet accounts for the extra 11 AP the Felguard gains when it gives stat weights.

In addition, spell haste makes 2 Tier 5 stronger (since you cast more SB in the same amount of time).

It is up to you which is better, but it is a close call either way.
Yes, it's definitely a close call.. and probably not that important in the long run. However, it's important to me to squeeze out every last little bit of damage that I can. I realize that the circumstances of fights vary widely but that doesn't stop me from trying to make decisions as precise as I can.

I believe that spell haste is still a fairly poorly understood dynamic so I'm hoping that my investigation into its non-intuitive effects may shed some light on its usefulness outside of single-spell-spam.
#677SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
Did you not read my post? It's about the effect of haste on filler spells between dot casts particularly applying to affliction locks.. clearly this doesn't apply to destruction locks because most destro locks don't use dots. I should have specified that I was looking for thoughts on the math of the model, not just general opinions about playstyle.
I did read your post. It asked for thoughts.

I was merely pointing out that even for me, as destro, I barely value haste higher than +damage. For affliction it ought to be much, much lower due to only a few of the spells you use being affected by it.

To answer your question: I haven't done any modeling that's not already covered by the spreadsheet for affliction warlocks.

But here's a quick model:
Get 10% casting speed reduction. Shadow bolts are now 0.25s faster. On average, you'll gain half of that when refreshing a dot.

Gain on corruption: 0.125seconds average per 18seconds, or less than one percent. For longer dots it's worse. This is with 10% (about 175 haste) which is quite substantial.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say, this shows that dot uptime increase is negligible. 175+ damage would gain you around 7-10% extra damage, in comparison.
#678SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Morwen
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
I've wondered the same thing.

The other thing that I've wondered about is the effect of haste on unstable affliction.. I've never understood the haste mechanic well enough to wrap my head around this. I know that spell haste doesn't affect the GCD, so in perfect conditions reducing the cast time of UA doesn't help since you're limited by the GCD. However, if lag makes your UA effectively a 1.6s cast is there any value in reducing the UA cast time to 1.4s so that it's 1.5s with lag? I guess the question can better be phrased: are cast times and the GCD both affected by lag or just cast times?
With the current system the actual cast of UA should not be influenced by haste or latency at all (unless there is a spike). When you hit the UA key, a GCD will start from that moment, and it will end 1.5 seconds later at which point you can start casting again. The time at which the cast bar appears depends on latency; the length of the cast bar depends on haste; but due to the pseudo-queue mechanic neither of those should matter, you just hit the next cast as soon as your GCD is over.

My understanding of the cast mechanics is the following timeline:

0.0 - hit the key, GCD starts, cast request sent to server
0.0+latency - server acknowledges cast request
0.0+2*latency - cast bar pops up on client
1.5 - GCD completes on client, you are allowed to hit another key, so you do at time T>1.5
0.0+latency+castlength - cast completes on server
T+latency - server acknowledges second cast request. If this is "sufficiently close" to the event where the previous cast completes on the server, then this cast will get "queued" and will be considered to have been cast as soon as the actual moment the previous cast finished.

It feels like "sufficiently close" is currently +/- 100ms or so, the mechanics haven't been quite stable since the patch and I'm not aware of any recent rigorous tests on much exact room there is to hit the second cast on time. In any case if the timeline holds true then all that matters is T, which doesn't depend on latency or cast length, only on how frequently you physically hit the key.
#679SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
While the haste effect on dot uptime is small, I wouldn't call it ignoreable. If 10% haste increases DPS by 5% via increasing shadowbolt DPS and increases dot uptime by 1%, it's a total 6% dps increase instead of 5%. Also there's another second order correction of haste increasing the % shadowbolts are of your damage, thus the more haste you have the more effect it will have. Then again another correction is the more haste you have the more lifetaps/dark pacts you cast which means less benefit from haste... Overall you need to sum up everything to get something more accurate than the first-order "50% shadowbolt dmg therefore 10% haste is 5% DPS increase", which is probably not far off but from a spreadsheet prespective a 1% error is not neglicible.
#680SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Trickykid
If we take the case where every time all DoTs and Curses are up a Shadow Bolt is started, then close to every time a DoT or Curse expires, you will be in the middle of a Shadow Bolt cast. Given a long enough fight the distribution of those expirations should fall evenly across all parts of the Shadow Bolt, so each DoT on average suffers half a shadow bolt (plus lag) of downtime per expiration.

To make the spreadsheet take this into account for "the next stat" section, simply change the 'avg dot gap' to =D23/2 on both the 'DPS' and 'TNS-haste' sheets.

Note: This is the maximum gap that occurs due to shadow bolt overlap. That gap is shortened if the player chooses to LT/DP during some windows to minimize the downtime.

Responding to some of the previous posts: just because haste may be less useful to an affliction warlock doesn't mean they shouldn't understand the value it gives.
#681SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Idk
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
was merely pointing out that even for me, as destro, I barely value haste higher than +damage. For affliction it ought to be much, much lower due to only a few of the spells you use being affected by it.
Like I said earlier, I'm not disputing that spell damage is better than spell haste. I'm trying to find out how good 1 spell haste is relative to 1 spell crit or 1 spell damage or 1 spell hit or 1 mp5 or 1 int. All of these stats matter and every piece of gear has a mix of at least some of these damage influencing stats. I can't choose gear with 100% spell damage and nothing else, so I have to understand how effective the other stats are at increasing my damage.

Let me say one more time for emphasis.. I'm NOT saying that haste is better than damage or hit. I'm saying the spreadsheet is not accounting for all of the ways that spell haste CAN improve damage and therefore undervalues its contribution to overall damage.

To answer your question: I haven't done any modeling that's not already covered by the spreadsheet for affliction warlocks.
Exactly the reason why I'm modeling this and trying to figure it out.. I believe the spreadsheet is wrong and I believe my model backs this claim.

But here's a quick model:
Get 10% casting speed reduction. Shadow bolts are now 0.25s faster. On average, you'll gain half of that when refreshing a dot.
Gain on corruption: 0.125seconds average per 18seconds, or less than one percent. For longer dots it's worse. This is with 10% (about 175 haste) which is quite substantial.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say, this shows that dot uptime increase is negligible. 175+ damage would gain you around 7-10% extra damage, in comparison.
What you fail to realize is that "less than 1%" damage boost for the dots is in addition to the contribution of additional shadowbolts due to spell haste. The spreadsheet is only counting additional shadow bolts.. therefore it's undervaluing haste. To accurately understand how valuable spell haste is, we need to be able to include both effects.

Here's a similar situation.. assume the spreadsheet didn't actually change the ISB uptime when you added additional crit. The spreadsheet would tell you that crit improves DPS by less than it actually does because it's not factoring in that additional ISB time. It doesn't mean that crit is better than spell damage or spell hit or whatever.. it just means the spreadsheet is incorrectly accounting for the mechanic.

Last edited by Idk : 12/18/07 at 8:49 PM.
#682SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Idk
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
If we take the case where every time all DoTs and Curses are up a Shadow Bolt is started, then close to every time a DoT or Curse expires, you will be in the middle of a Shadow Bolt cast. Given a long enough fight the distribution of those expirations should fall evenly across all parts of the Shadow Bolt, so each DoT on average suffers half a shadow bolt (plus lag) of downtime per expiration.

To make the spreadsheet take this into account for "the next stat" section, simply change the 'avg dot gap' to =D23/2 on both the 'DPS' and 'TNS-haste' sheets.

Note: This is the maximum gap that occurs due to shadow bolt overlap. That gap is shortened if the player chooses to LT/DP during some windows to minimize the downtime.

Responding to some of the previous posts: just because haste may be less useful to an affliction warlock doesn't mean they shouldn't understand the value it gives.
First off, thank you! Your last sentence is perfect.

In general I think your spreadsheet changes are an appropriate approximation of the effect.

I do believe, however, that your assumption "Given a long enough fight the distribution of those expirations should fall evenly across all parts of the Shadow Bolt" is incorrect. The reason is that even though there are random effects like resists, the limited number of actions that can be performed all have regular cast times and intervals between cast times (assuming lag isn't in the picture). The GCD is always 1.5s, the UA cast time is always 1.5s, the UA and Corr durations are always 18s, the SL duration is always 30s, and the SB cast is a fixed time based on your spell haste. Since the chunks are consistent (and all happen to be multiples of .5 except the shadowbolt) I do believe that certain cast times of shadowbolt will fit into the gaps better than others. I don't have the math to support this but I do believe that my model demonstrates it. Note how dot uptime for the 18s spells increases from 0% haste to 5% and drops down by 6%.. then increases again up to 10%.

Is this way too theoretical to actually be useful in determining real world damage? Probably... but I do find it interesting.
#683SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Trickykid
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
First off, thank you! Your last sentence is perfect.

In general I think your spreadsheet changes are an appropriate approximation of the effect.

I do believe, however, that your assumption "Given a long enough fight the distribution of those expirations should fall evenly across all parts of the Shadow Bolt" is incorrect. The reason is that even though there are random effects like resists, the limited number of actions that can be performed all have regular cast times and intervals between cast times (assuming lag isn't in the picture). The GCD is always 1.5s, the UA cast time is always 1.5s, the UA and Corr durations are always 18s, the SL duration is always 30s, and the SB cast is a fixed time based on your spell haste. Since the chunks are consistent (and all happen to be multiples of .5 except the shadowbolt) I do believe that certain cast times of shadowbolt will fit into the gaps better than others. I don't have the math to support this but I do believe that my model demonstrates it. Note how dot uptime for the 18s spells increases from 0% haste to 5% and drops down by 6%.. then increases again up to 10%.
The gaps won't be consistent given that the lag on top of every cast varies constantly. As soon as haste is involved, the gaps become less predictable as well. You can go ahead and try to model it more with your simulation, but simulations can create bizarre results if you simplify things too much. You are seeing a downgrade by going from 5% haste to 6% haste, which highlights that there are some problems. If you want to make your claims more robust, I would include more 'real world' elements like LT/DPs and a randomized lag value.
#684SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PSGarak
Everything is a multiple of 0.5, but with a variable DoT order which multiple of 0.5 you're going to be displaced by varies considerably--IF the 2.3 casting mechanics mean that everything lines up nice like that in the first place. Being uniformly distributed across the 5 multiples of 0.5 is statistically equivalent to being uniformly distributed across the entire interval for our purposes. And of course, as trickykid said, as soon as you add haste in there everything goes to pot and you basically end up with a continuous uniform distribution regardless of lag mechanics and casting cycle.

However, that's assuming a naive casting cycle, which is what I think Idk was actually getting at. If your mana pool is not within one lifetap of either full or empty, you can spread around your lifetaps strategically to decrease DoT-gap. Specifically, if one of your DoTs is falling off you can choose to either DoT now and have an action up in 1.5s followed by a shadowbolt, or shadowbolt now, have an action in 2.5s, and lifetap afterwards. Both orders end up with the same spells cast and net man cost, but one of them nudges the DoT up by 1.0 seconds. You can also nudge the DoT back by 1.0 seconds if it wouldn't be quite done following a lifetap.
So while a constant lifetap/shadowbolt order will pretty much always have a DoT-gap of one-half your average spell cast time (average of spell cast times weighted by spell cast measure), that's more of a worst-case scenario which a skilled warlock can improved on by up to 0.5 seconds on average by forecasting 2.5 seconds and planning shadowbolts/lifetaps accordingly. It might be possible to further improve that by forecasting further ahead than one tick or one cast (ie two lifetaps vs 1 shadowbolt to nudge the action timing by 0.5 seconds) but the returns on doing so drop off after about three GCDs of forecasting (by which point you can control to the 0.5s), and larger forecast horizons requires a larger and larger mana buffer on both ends, increasing linearly.

Assuming you're at 50% health, 50% mana, and completely flexible in your cast cycle (ie lifetap/DoT distribution not dictated by movement) you should be able to control within 0.5s when you refresh your DoTs for an averge gap of 0.25s while maintaining steady-state dps, unless two DoTs overlap which can't be strategized out of. Once you add haste into the equation the dynamics of forecasting get a lot messier because things don't line up as nice. In theory it might lower your DoT-gap under ideal circumstances but the calculations become disgusting.
#685SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
What you fail to realize is that "less than 1%" damage boost for the dots is in addition to the contribution of additional shadowbolts due to spell haste. The spreadsheet is only counting additional shadow bolts.. therefore it's undervaluing haste. To accurately understand how valuable spell haste is, we need to be able to include both effects.
Well, yes, of course.

You claimed the spreadsheet doesn't model haste well, because it only models added SBs, it does not compute increased uptime.

I calculated that this uptime gain is significantly less than 1% for even an absurd amount of haste like 175. I considered this fairly insignificant compared to the current calculated gain from haste. You disagree with this last bit.


Can we agree on these points?

- yes, it's missing.
- It's very complex to model or calculate, for small values player timing/lag is obviously much more significant
- when modeled with a high amount of haste we get a very small gain in dot uptime
- affliction warlocks will not try to stack haste, but will occasionally get it anyway because loot drops are random.

In order to answer your question: no, the spreadsheet doesn't model it.

Haste does a lot of things a spreadsheet can't model anyway: faster fears, banishes, and spells in general. For example, even though immolate/UA is GCD capped, having haste makes you finish them faster, allowing you to move sooner. We can add "increases dot uptime" to the list.

Players should value it a bit higher than what the spreadsheet says, because of this.
#686SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Idk
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Can we agree on these points?

- yes, it's missing.
- It's very complex to model or calculate, for small values player timing/lag is obviously much more significant
- when modeled with a high amount of haste we get a very small gain in dot uptime
- affliction warlocks will not try to stack haste, but will occasionally get it anyway because loot drops are random.
Yes, we can agree on those points. What I don't agree with is the desire to simply ignore this effect on dot uptime because you think it's insignificant or hard to model. You can take the latter 3 statements from above and replace "dot uptime" with "ISB uptime" and "haste" with "crit" and the statements are just as true. ISB is very complex to model or calculate, it's significantly affected by timing and lag, crit increases will produce a very small gain in ISB uptime, and affliction locks will not try to stack crit but will occasionally get it anyway. Does this mean it's not important to model the effect of crit on ISB uptime? Of course not! Considerable energy has been put in to understanding ISB uptime even though it's extremely hard to model across a raid of players. Our models are approximations at best but at least there's been an attempt to create mathematically sound models of ISB uptime rather than making unsubstantiated assumptions.

I'm not saying that this problem requires an equal amount of effort as the ISB uptime models, but I don't understand why it's being dismissed as insignificant without further investigation.

My model shows me that haste has a pronounced effect on dot uptime that goes much further than reducing the average dot gap by 50% of the cast time reduction of shadowbolt. I want to be SHOWN why my model is wrong.. not simply told that it is without any evidence to support it.

I have a set of gear with 4.88% haste that i use when I'm playing destro. I'll try to do some Dr. Boom testing to see if my model comes even close to real world testing.

Last edited by Idk : 12/19/07 at 3:00 AM.
#687SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
I'm not saying that this problem requires an equal amount of effort as the ISB uptime models, but I don't understand why it's being dismissed as insignificant without further investigation.

My model shows me that haste has a pronounced effect on dot uptime that goes much further than reducing the average dot gap by 50% of the cast time reduction of shadowbolt. I want to be SHOWN why my model is wrong.. not simply told that it is without any evidence to support it.
Unless I'm missing the point again, you're arguing that haste will do the following:

- allows you to get Shadow Bolts in. We agree on this. It is already modeled.
- allows you to casts finished quicker, which can be very beneficial on mobile fights or other tasks. We agree on this. It is not modeled.
- will allow you to alter your spell choice so you can cast more dots instead of Shadow Bolts, increasing your damage per casting time. We agree on this, but are disputing the significance of this particular factor.

Would it be hard to add any of the following to the damage simulation?

- lifetaps/darkpact
- Immolate (unless you're not using this because of lower dps, but make sure to state so)
- damage output
- haste rating instead of hasted casting speed (as this is not linear, statwise)

This would at least give you a rough estimate of how far the spreadsheet is off.
#688SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bolche
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
To make the spreadsheet take this into account for "the next stat" section, simply change the 'avg dot gap' to =D23/2 on both the 'DPS' and 'TNS-haste' sheets.

Note: This is the maximum gap that occurs due to shadow bolt overlap. That gap is shortened if the player chooses to LT/DP during some windows to minimize the downtime.

Responding to some of the previous posts: just because haste may be less useful to an affliction warlock doesn't mean they shouldn't understand the value it gives.
I first thought of making 'avg dot gap' to something like 'filler cast time'/2, but it does not factor when two dots expire at the same time and you can only renew one at a time and dot refresh resist. Moreover, I wanted to let users adjust manualy something related to the player attention. I know for exemple that when I was affliction, my real average dot gap (from WWS) was something around 3-4s under ideal conditions, like Al'ar p1. During fights whith many interruptions, it could go very high. That's why I let it up to the user.

But it is obvious that the cast time or your filler spell (and thus haste) as an impact on your dot uptime. When tanking and spaming searing pain, I know that (once aggro is OK) I can maintain an almost perferct dot uptime, thanks to the 1.5s cast time of SP.

It seems logical that reducing the cast time by X second does reduce the average dot gap by X/2. So to take into account in this in "the next stat" section while leting the user choose what it wants for the dot gap, I can set the dot gap in the TNS-haste section to : dot_gap - 'filler cast time reduction'/2
In the .xls doc it translates into : =DPS!J10-(DPS!E24-E24)/2


By the way, if you have some suggestions for the spreadsheet, please post them into the dedicated topic ((another) Warlock DPS Spreadsheet).
#689SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Idk
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Would it be hard to add any of the following to the damage simulation?

- lifetaps/darkpact
- Immolate (unless you're not using this because of lower dps, but make sure to state so)
- damage output
- haste rating instead of hasted casting speed (as this is not linear, statwise)

This would at least give you a rough estimate of how far the spreadsheet is off.
This is doable, I'll see what I can do today.

As far as excluding immolate, that was a personal decision based on the fact that I rarely use it.. in the raids that I regularly run I'm the only warlock, there's a shadow priest, and no mages. I just can't justify the cast. I can, however, include immolate in the model quite easily. My plan is to make it the lowest priority dot.
#690SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
This is doable, I'll see what I can do today.

As far as excluding immolate, that was a personal decision based on the fact that I rarely use it.. in the raids that I regularly run I'm the only warlock, there's a shadow priest, and no mages. I just can't justify the cast. I can, however, include immolate in the model quite easily. My plan is to make it the lowest priority dot.
Thanks, let us know the results.

Even without CoE/Scorch and with CoS and Shadow Weaving, it might do more damage-per-casting-time than SB, with your spec. Just plug it in the spreadsheet or run ShadowSeer and see what comes out. If it's close enough to Shadow Bolt, my guess is you can use it to improve on DPS since it's a 1.5s cast option, usable to improve dot uptime for reasons you stated earlier.
#691SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Idk
I've extended the functionality of my model to include:

- immolate
- lifetap (I arbitrarily chose 2000 mana per tap and 8000 max mana)
- reduced casting time of immo and ua with haste (even though GCD remains the same)
- changed from haste to haste rating using the following formula (let me know if this is incorrect):

base cast / (1.0 + (haste_rating/1570)) + lag

The really fascinating thing that has come out of this is seeing how lifetap affects the casting timeline. I've tried a variety of methods to improve general dot uptime, with some being more successful than others. This is what I've settled on for the moment:

If we have less than 1000 mana, lifetap (I sampled with 500, 1000, and 1500 for the "dangerously low on mana" threshold.. and found 1000 to be the best).
If UA isn't up, cast it
If UA is going to be up in less than ua cast + lag time, recast it
If Corr isn't up, cast it
If SL isn't up, cast it
If Immo isn't up, cast it
If Immo is going to be up in less than immo cast + lag time, recast it
Consider a preemptive lifetap: if any dot has more duration left than that dot's cast time (or the gcd) but less duration than the cast of a shadowbolt AND the current mana pool is more than 1 lifetap from being full, cast a preemptive lifetap.
Otherwise, cast a shadowbolt

I'm now cycling through haste rating from 0 to 105 in increments of 15 (arbitrary numbers) trying to generate enough data to feel confident. What I find interesting is that the variability between simulations of the same haste rating is very small. I think this is a good thing.
#692SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
I've extended the functionality of my model to include:

- immolate
- lifetap (I arbitrarily chose 2000 mana per tap and 8000 max mana)
- reduced casting time of immo and ua with haste (even though GCD remains the same)
- changed from haste to haste rating using the following formula (let me know if this is incorrect):

base cast / (1.0 + (haste_rating/1570)) + lag

The really fascinating thing that has come out of this is seeing how lifetap affects the casting timeline. I've tried a variety of methods to improve general dot uptime, with some being more successful than others. This is what I've settled on for the moment:

If we have less than 1000 mana, lifetap (I sampled with 500, 1000, and 1500 for the "dangerously low on mana" threshold.. and found 1000 to be the best).
If UA isn't up, cast it
If UA is going to be up in less than ua cast + lag time, recast it
If Corr isn't up, cast it
If SL isn't up, cast it
If Immo isn't up, cast it
If Immo is going to be up in less than immo cast + lag time, recast it
Consider a preemptive lifetap: if any dot has more duration left than that dot's cast time (or the gcd) but less duration than the cast of a shadowbolt AND the current mana pool is more than 1 lifetap from being full, cast a preemptive lifetap.
Otherwise, cast a shadowbolt

I'm now cycling through haste rating from 0 to 105 in increments of 15 (arbitrary numbers) trying to generate enough data to feel confident. What I find interesting is that the variability between simulations of the same haste rating is very small. I think this is a good thing.
Looks promising. Keep us posted. Maybe try some variations with lower hit chance as well, and see how it affects numbers?
#693SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0manupod
Ok I have a couple questions to ask of you guys & gals. Just to touch on some of the Curse & Trinket discussions.

Ok the first thing I'd love to have cleared up is about trinkets in relation to when their effects are applied or available to be applied to spells.

Example: I open up a fight like Lurker with Amplify Curse > CoD > Pop Icon of the Silver Cresent > UA > Corruption > Immolate > SB SB SB and so forth. (Assuming I'm not on CoE/S duty of course)

What's confusing is the trinket use. I understand (maybe wrongly) that trinkets don't effect AC and CoD. So am I right by doing my CoD first?

My second thing I'm confused about is CoE/S use. I usually apply CoE/S before applying DoTs. I do it for two reasons, but here's the reason I'm not sure makes sense: CoE/S won't affect my own DoTs if my DoTs went up before the Curse. Is that true? Or does it not matter? I know it doesn't matter too much unless I'm being min/max about it but it's just been bugging me and I figured I'd ask.

Any input is appreciated. And apologies in advance if this is breaking any flow of conversation going on.
#694SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
Why would trinket not affect CoD? Afaik CoD is affected by spell damage, and trinket is no different. Spell damage effect is determined when the spell leaves your hands. Why do you CoD though? As affliction you *should* be the malediction "bitch" with 13% CoS let a destruction warlock do CoD since he doesn't have malediction (or better, CoR and CoE so only CoD if you have more than 3 warlocks in a raid and/or don't have at least 2 fire/frost mages and/or the fight does not allow use of CoR).

Afaik CoS needs to be active when your DoT ticks, so casting it right after the DoTs should work. Remember though if at least 2 other shadow users started to DPS at least 1.5s before you did, CoS first will yield more raid DPS. In optimal situations though the curse should come after the UA+corruption.
#695SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PSGarak
CoD is affected by trinkets. Since it's coefficient is so large (200%) it actually gets the most use out of your trinket than any of your spells. While this coefficient is small relative to its duration that has no effect on how much extra damage you get out of the crescent use.

DoT spell damage from gear and caster buffs gets locked in on cast, but mob debuffs are reevaluated each tick. Assuming every other shadow caster in your raid also leads off with DoTs you can increase your DoT uptime, and therefore damage, by doing UA corr CoS, with no disadvantage. Longer than that and you start having DoTs tick without it.
#696SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by manupod View Post
What's confusing is the trinket use. I understand (maybe wrongly) that trinkets don't effect AC and CoD. So am I right by doing my CoD first?

CoD gets 200% bonus, more than any other spell. Trinkets are very beneficial with CoD.
CoD damage = 4200 + 2 * spellpower.

I think you're confused because amp curse only affects the base damage. So trinkets don't affect the boost given by Amplify Curse:
Amped CoD = 6300 + 2 * spellpower.





Note that CoD is not affected by Shadow Mastery, for reasons unknown.
#697SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0manupod
Great replies there, and thank you for clearing that up. Of course I CoS/E most of the time, but the example I gave with CoD was just that, an example. Don't think I'm greedy and CoD all the time =)

I think it's best explained by exactly what you said, where it's re-evaluated every DoT tick. I'll definitely be changing up some of my rotations for certain fights now.

Again, thanks a bunch!

Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion...
#698SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
t0qt4u
Is the Warlock DPS Calculator reliable? If so, I've tested most of the specs through it, and am curious to know if someone can find a spec with the most DPS.

Last edited by t0qt4u : 12/20/07 at 3:01 AM.
#699SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Idk
EDIT: added some damage numbers to get an idea of overall change of damage.

Results from my model. They're interesting.. still not quite sure what to make of them. To recap:

Assumptions:

8000 mana
lifetap returns 2000 mana
no cataclysm
.1s of lag
no curses or soulshatter
1% resist chance
600s of modeled combat
stand and cast (no movement)
~850 simulated combats per chunk of haste rating (this model is much slower to calculate than the old one)

Picked some approximate damage numbers, these could be more precise I'm sure.. but since they stay constant across all measures of haste they should be a decent approximation of damage difference from haste:
ua: 4000 damage
co: 4000 damage
sl: 3000 damage
immo: 1500 damage
sb: 3000 damage

Priority of actions:

If we have less than 1000 mana, lifetap (I sampled with 500, 1000, and 1500 for the "dangerously low on mana" threshold.. and found 1000 to be the best).
If UA isn't up, cast it
If UA is going to be up in less than ua cast + lag time, recast it
If Corr isn't up, cast it
If SL isn't up, cast it
If Immo isn't up, cast it
If Immo is going to be up in less than immo cast + lag time, recast it
Consider a preemptive lifetap: if any dot has more duration left than that dot's cast time (or the gcd) but less duration than the cast of a shadowbolt AND the current mana pool is more than 1 lifetap from being full, cast a preemptive lifetap.
Otherwise, cast a shadowbolt

The format of the results:
Haste: haste rating
UA up: percentage of unstable affliction uptime
Co up: percentage of corruption uptime
SL up: percentage of siphon life uptime
Im up: percentage of immolate uptime
SBs: number of shadowbolts cast
LTs: number of life taps
preemp: percentage of life taps that were cast preemptively.. that is, lifetaps that were used to reduce the time between dot expiration and dot refresh where a shadowbolt would have caused a larger gap
needed: percentage of life taps that were cast because mana was less than 1000
total: total damage done
change: ratio of total damage done with this amount of haste vs. total damage with no haste

The results for haste rating of 0 to 157 in increments of 15.7 (so it should be approx. 0-10%):

---

Haste: 0.0
UA up: 94.8
Co up: 94.5
SL up: 95.5
Im up: 86.0
SBs: 127.0
LTs: 48.0
preemp: 57.3
needed: 42.7
total: 742300.0
change: 1.0

Haste: 15.7
UA up: 95.5
Co up: 95.2
SL up: 94.6
Im up: 86.9
SBs: 127.0
LTs: 48.0
preemp: 71.3
needed: 28.7
total: 744167.0
change: 1.0025

Haste: 31.4
UA up: 96.0
Co up: 95.7
SL up: 95.0
Im up: 87.4
SBs: 128.0
LTs: 49.0
preemp: 71.4
needed: 28.6
total: 749040.0
change: 1.0091

Haste: 47.1
UA up: 95.5
Co up: 95.4
SL up: 94.8
Im up: 83.7
SBs: 131.0
LTs: 49.0
preemp: 51.9
needed: 48.1
total: 754633.0
change: 1.0166

Haste: 62.8
UA up: 95.9
Co up: 95.8
SL up: 95.2
Im up: 84.2
SBs: 131.0
LTs: 49.0
preemp: 51.3
needed: 48.7
total: 756240.0
change: 1.0188

Haste: 78.5
UA up: 93.0
Co up: 92.7
SL up: 96.4
Im up: 85.9
SBs: 133.0
LTs: 49.0
preemp: 67.3
needed: 32.7
total: 755980.0
change: 1.0184

Haste: 94.2
UA up: 93.6
Co up: 93.4
SL up: 96.4
Im up: 80.3
SBs: 134.0
LTs: 49.0
preemp: 53.0
needed: 47.0
total: 757353.0
change: 1.0203

Haste: 109.9
UA up: 93.6
Co up: 93.5
SL up: 94.6
Im up: 87.1
SBs: 135.0
LTs: 50.0
preemp: 51.0
needed: 49.0
total: 763487.0
change: 1.0285

Haste: 125.6
UA up: 94.1
Co up: 93.9
SL up: 95.0
Im up: 87.2
SBs: 135.0
LTs: 50.0
preemp: 50.5
needed: 49.5
total: 764987.0
change: 1.0306

Haste: 141.3
UA up: 94.5
Co up: 94.4
SL up: 95.4
Im up: 87.7
SBs: 136.0
LTs: 50.0
preemp: 50.7
needed: 49.3
total: 769727.0
change: 1.0369

Haste: 157.0
UA up: 95.0
Co up: 94.9
SL up: 95.9
Im up: 88.4
SBs: 136.0
LTs: 50.0
preemp: 50.7
needed: 49.3
total: 771780.0
change: 1.0397

Last edited by Idk : 12/20/07 at 8:27 PM.
#700SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
...
Assumptions:

8000 mana

ua: 4000 damage
co: 4000 damage
sl: 3000 damage
immo: 1500 damage
sb: 3000 damage
These do seem a bit dodgy. They will actually affect your results, because there is usually no reason for you to cast Immolate if has less damage per casting time than Shadow Bolt. Also:

Immolate does 942 base and gets 85% from spellpower.
Shadow Bolt does 575 base and gets 85.7% from spellpower.

There is no way one can do 1500 and the other 3000. Even when you account for crits, and the fact that SB gets 10% extra damage through Shadow Mastery. Not even with no Coe/Imp Scorch and Shadoweaving.

I'd recommend going in the game and tossing each of these spells on a target and see how much they do and using those values. I'll also PM you some bits of code that have coefficients, if you're so inclined. It would allow you to determine the dps increase given by extra spellpower, too, in your simulations.

8000 mana seems very low, but that should hardly matter. 10000 would probably be more realistic in a raid scenario, where you have AI and MOTW.


Haste: 157.0
UA up: 95.0
Co up: 94.9
SL up: 95.9
Im up: 88.4
SBs: 136.0
LTs: 50.0
preemp: 50.7
needed: 49.3
total: 771780.0
change: 1.0397
So 157 haste gets you almost 4% more damage. That's quite good. +157 damage would have netted you around 8%, I'd wager. Roughly 2 haste rating = 1 spell power. Interesting.

Last edited by Arelenda : 12/20/07 at 9:53 PM.
#701SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0DamnDirtyApe
Idk, your simulation's priorities will inevitably lead to immolate durations of 18 seconds. At some point during the simulation, you will cast UA then corruption then immolate. Assmuing all of these hit, they will all expire at the same time. When this happens your simulated warlock will cast UA again, then corruption again, refreshing these exactly on time but delaying the immolate refresh by 3 seconds. This will continue to happen as long as all of the dots hit and siphon life does not interfere. I have seen this happen in my affliction raiding experience and my solution has been to refresh immolate early, before refreshing UA and corruption.

Of course this is moot if you find that your shadow bolt DPCT is higher than your immolate DPCT.
#702SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Idk
Originally Posted by DamnDirtyApe View Post
Idk, your simulation's priorities will inevitably lead to immolate durations of 18 seconds. At some point during the simulation, you will cast UA then corruption then immolate. Assmuing all of these hit, they will all expire at the same time. When this happens your simulated warlock will cast UA again, then corruption again, refreshing these exactly on time but delaying the immolate refresh by 3 seconds. This will continue to happen as long as all of the dots hit and siphon life does not interfere. I have seen this happen in my affliction raiding experience and my solution has been to refresh immolate early, before refreshing UA and corruption.

Of course this is moot if you find that your shadow bolt DPCT is higher than your immolate DPCT.
Refreshing early is not a good idea unless the DPCT of your shorter immolate is still more than the DPCT of your shadowbolt. You could potentially start UA, Co, SL, SB, SB, Immo, SB... which would make your first immolate's gap something on the order of .5s:

0: begin ua
1.5: cast ua, cast cor, set timer for 19.5, begin gcd
3: gcd ends, cast sl, begin gcd
4.5 gcd ends, begin sb
7: cast sb, begin immo
8.5: cast immo, set timer for 23.5, begin sb
11: cast sb, begin sb
13.5: cast sb, begin sb
16: cast sb, begin sb
18.5: cast sb, begin ua
19.5: ua runs out, co runs out
20: cast ua, cast co, begin gcd (.5s downtime of ua and co)
21.5: gcd up, lifetap, begin gcd
23: gcd ends, begin immo
23.5: immo ends
24.5: cast immo (1s downtime of immo)

Your point about UA, Co, Immo makes sense.. I've even brought up that very same point in one of these warlock threads. However, I think I remember that "typical" cycle getting mucked up by lag. Let me see what it looks like on the model. I'll post results here.
#703SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gaborn
The best solution is to start with Immolate. That alone will desyncronize your dots.
#704SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Idk
This first chunk is the first 24s (plus the full summary of the 600s simulation) of a standard run of the casting model with no dot resists... priority: ua => co => sl => im. Note that Immolate is down for 2.8s after its first full run, this is even with the casting gcd of sl in between ua/co and immo:

0.0: begin ua
1.6: cast ua
1.6: cast co
3.2: cast sl
4.8: begin im
6.4: cast im
6.4: begin sb
9.0: cast sb
9.0: begin sb
11.6: cast sb
11.6: begin sb
14.2: cast sb
14.2: begin sb
16.8: cast sb
16.8: begin sb
19.4: cast sb
19.4: begin ua
19.6: end ua
19.6: end co
21.0: cast ua
21.0: cast co
21.4: end im
22.6: begin im
24.2: cast im

...

ua: 32 0.944998 0.0
co: 32 0.942332 0.0
sl: 20 0.950998 0.0
im: 34 0.842665 0.0
sb: 129 0.031
sb: 129 4
lt: 48 preemptive: 0.479167 needed: 0.520833

---

I tried a quick little hack of the cycle I mentioned in the previous post.. for the first set of casts, do a shadowbolt between the first SL and the first Immo. I ran the simulation until I got an output with no dot resists just like the previous. Note that the first immo dot refresh is almost perfect (only .2s downtime!) But by the 2nd full run of immolate (around 39s into combat) 3.4s goes by between the end of immo and when it's finally recast:

0.0: begin ua
1.6: cast ua
1.6: cast co
3.2: cast sl
4.8: begin cycle-setting sb
7.4: cast sb
7.4: begin im
9.0: cast im
9.0: begin sb
11.6: cast sb
11.6: begin sb
14.2: cast sb
14.2: begin sb
16.8: cast sb
16.8: begin sb
19.4: cast sb
19.4: begin ua
19.6: end ua
19.6: end co
21.0: cast ua
21.0: cast co
22.6: begin im
24.0: end im
24.2: cast im
24.2: begin sb
26.8: cast sb
26.8: begin sb
29.4: cast sb
29.4: begin sb
32.0: cast sb
32.0: cast tap: 1800
33.2: end sl
33.6: cast sl
35.2: begin sb
37.8: cast sb
37.8: begin ua
39.0: end ua
39.0: end co
39.2: end im
39.4: cast ua
39.4: cast co
41.0: begin im
42.6: cast im
...
ua: 32 0.944998 0.0
co: 32 0.942332 0.0
sl: 20 0.950998 0.0
im: 34 0.842665 0.0
sb: 129 0.016
sb: 129 2
lt: 48 preemptive: 0.479167 needed: 0.520833

---

Uptime of the 4 dots from the first example:
94.5%, 94.2%, 95.1%, 84.3%

Uptime of the 4 dots from the second example (the one with the cycle-setting sb):
94.5%, 94.2%, 95.1%, 84.2%

The difference is marginal assuming similar lag conditions and resist conditions (we're already talking about a resist-free situation since that's when the UA => Co => Immo cycle isn't broken). In fact, immolate's uptime is even lower in the second cycle because it starts later.

The problem is that immolate is the shortest dot of the cycle and the lowest priority.. it needs to be refreshed more often and other refreshes will always take precedence over it. You can adjust when the immolate timeline starts at the beginning of the fight but it's only a matter of time before immolate ends when another dot needs to be refreshed. You should always be making the decision to cast the highest DPCT spell that you can at any given moment (unless you can use that moment to tap favorably) and that often means letting immolate stay down while you refresh another, more important dot.

There are only a few of ways that you can actually improve immolate uptime in the middle of a fight:

1. Refresh it before it expires. This hurts the DPCT and DPM of the spell and I'm not convinced that it's ever worth it. I'd need to see the math.
2. Make it a higher priority to refresh. This is a bad idea since its DPCT is typically lower than the other 3 dots.
3. Use lifetaps/darkpacts to adjust the casting timeline so that you never stop casting but the gaps between dot end and dot refresh are smaller.

Of these, I believe that #3 is the only one that you can do without negatively affecting your overall dps.. this is because lifetaps must happen at some point in the casting cycle, but their timing is highly adjustable.
#705SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Idk
Originally Posted by Gaborn View Post
The best solution is to start with Immolate. That alone will desyncronize your dots.
This is NOT true, for the same reasons as I stated above. Eventually your immolate dot will run into your ua/co dots and they'll take precedence on the refresh.

The following is a casting cycle that starts with an immolate and then follows the traditional priority system.. to keep things simple I've set it up to have no lag and no resists:

0.0: begin initial im
1.5: cast im
1.5: begin ua
3.0: cast ua
3.0: cast co
4.5: cast sl
6.0: begin sb
8.5: cast sb
8.5: begin sb
11.0: cast sb
11.0: begin sb
13.5: cast sb
13.5: begin sb
16.0: cast sb
16.0: begin im
16.5: end im
17.5: cast im
17.5: begin sb
20.0: cast sb
20.0: begin ua
21.0: end ua
21.0: end co
21.5: cast ua
21.5: cast co
23.0: begin sb
25.5: cast sb
25.5: begin sb
28.0: cast sb
28.0: begin sb
30.5: cast sb
30.5: cast tap: 1800
32.0: begin im
32.5: end im
33.5: cast im
33.5: cast tap: 3355
34.5: end sl
35.0: cast sl
36.5: begin sb
39.0: cast sb
39.0: begin ua
39.5: end ua
39.5: end co
40.5: cast ua
40.5: cast co
42.0: begin sb
44.5: cast sb
44.5: begin sb
47.0: cast sb
47.0: begin sb
48.5: end im
49.5: cast sb
49.5: begin im
51.0: cast im
51.0: begin sb
53.5: cast sb
53.5: begin sb
56.0: cast sb
56.0: begin sb
58.5: end ua
58.5: end co
58.5: cast sb
58.5: cast tap: 790
60.0: begin ua
61.5: cast ua
61.5: cast co
63.0: begin sb
65.0: end sl
65.5: cast sb
65.5: cast sl
66.0: end im
67.0: begin im
68.5: cast im

By 51s we're having 2.5s go between the end of immo and the time that it starts again.. it only gets worse as the fight goes on.

By the end, uptime of the 4 dots:
94.8%, 94.6%, 96.1%, 84.6%

Compare that to not using the initial immo.. same deal with no resists, no lag:
95.1%, 95.1%, 96.8%, 86.1%

Of course, this is a little unrealistic because it's assuming 0 lag.. just the summary results comparing the same two cycles, this time with .1s lag, no resists:

start with an immolate then do standard priorities:
93%, 93%, 95%, 85%

standard cycle:
94.5%, 94.2%, 95.1%, 84.3%

---

Of course, all of this assumes that you trust my simulator.
#706SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Idk
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
These do seem a bit dodgy. They will actually affect your results, because there is usually no reason for you to cast Immolate if has less damage per casting time than Shadow Bolt. Also:
The numbers were an approximation since I didn't have the real numbers available to me. The spreadsheet tells me (and I find these to be accurate):

UA: 4168
Co: 4358
SL: 3097
Im: 2118
SB: 2929

Re Immolate: The problem is that my typical raid has no CoE nor imp scorch and always has a shadow priest. On top of this, my affliction gear has close to 200 more shadow damage than fire damage. The DPCT of immolate is 1310 vs. 1129 of shadowbolt. Under these conditions it's a DPS loss for me to use immolate.. I presume because of the increased mana cost and reduced ISB uptime?

Plugging the above damage numbers back into my calculator and simplified the format a little bit. This time we have haste rating, dps (just total damage over 600s), and change from 0% haste. For a baseline, the spreadsheet tells me that my total damage with .1s lag and 1.25s avg dot gap is 1281.60 with 0% haste.

Haste: 0.0
dps: 1303.33
change: 0.0

Haste: 15.7
dps: 1306.99
change: 1.0028

Haste: 31.4
dps: 1315.47
change: 1.0093

Haste: 47.1
dps: 1323.16
change: 1.0152

Haste: 62.8
dps: 1326.17
change: 1.0175

Haste: 78.5
dps: 1325.59
change: 1.0171

Haste: 94.2
dps: 1325.77
change: 1.0172

Haste: 109.9
dps: 1338.75
change: 1.0272

Haste: 125.6
dps: 1341.43
change: 1.0292

Haste: 141.3
dps: 1349.69
change: 1.0356

Haste: 157.0
dps: 1353.56
change: 1.0385

For grins, the spreadsheet tells me that with 10% haste my dps is 1336.17

So the spreadsheet shows 10% haste as 4.25% damage increase.. my model shows it as 3.85%. So haste may in fact be _over_valued on the spreadsheet. Still don't think I know enough to say anything conclusive about haste => damage for affliction locks.
#707SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gaborn
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
This is NOT true, for the same reasons as I stated above. Eventually your immolate dot will run into your ua/co dots and they'll take precedence on the refresh.
I missed the part where you have to prioritize Immo over UA/Corr. Of course there will be a moment where all 3 dots will finish at the same time and if you cast UA/Corr before Immo you will end up with those 3 dots syncronized again.

I thought it was clear.
#708SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Idk
Originally Posted by Gaborn View Post
I missed the part where you have to prioritize Immo over UA/Corr. Of course there will be a moment where all 3 dots will finish at the same time and if you cast UA/Corr before Immo you will end up with those 3 dots syncronized again.

I thought it was clear.
Perhaps it's confusion with my use of "they".. let me rephrase my statement. Where I originally said:

"This is NOT true, for the same reasons as I stated above. Eventually your immolate dot will run into your ua/co dots and they'll take precedence on the refresh."

It should read as:

"This is NOT true, for the same reasons as I stated above. Eventually your immolate dot will expire at the same time as your UA and corruption dots. To maximize damage when this happens, the right thing to do is to refresh UA and Corruption and then refresh immolate.. even if this leaves a several second gap of immolate downtime."

It doesn't matter when you launch your first immolate cast, over a relatively short period of time (less than a minute) your immolate will expire within a second UA and corruption.

Last edited by Idk : 12/21/07 at 6:27 AM.
#709SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Idk View Post

Re Immolate: The problem is that my typical raid has no CoE nor imp scorch and always has a shadow priest. On top of this, my affliction gear has close to 200 more shadow damage than fire damage. The DPCT of immolate is 1310 vs. 1129 of shadowbolt. Under these conditions it's a DPS loss for me to use immolate.. I presume because of the increased mana cost and reduced ISB uptime?

..

Haste: 157.0
dps: 1353.56
change: 1.0385

For grins, the spreadsheet tells me that with 10% haste my dps is 1336.17

So the spreadsheet shows 10% haste as 4.25% damage increase.. my model shows it as 3.85%. So haste may in fact be _over_valued on the spreadsheet. Still don't think I know enough to say anything conclusive about haste => damage for affliction locks.

About immolate:


makes sense to drop it, then. Weird, I figured affliction would always cast SB. I'll add something about it to the compendium.

There are a few really good items that do only shadow damage: [Ritssyn's Lost Pendant], [Orb of the Soul-Eater], [Nethervoid Cloak], [Boots of the Shifting Nightmare] and the FSW, so it makes sense that warlocks run around doing with more +shadow damage over general spellpower.


About haste for affliction:

I think you've proven that haste should be valued at less than 50% of +damage for sustained damage, for affliction locks.

Maybe it's worth using that simulator of yours to test a few other things? For example, it should be very easy for you now to figure out what dps gain you'd get with +157 spellpower, or what happens if you lose 5% hit.
#710SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Shai
How about adding Dr.Damage (http://www.wowace.com/wiki/DrDamage) to the tools/mods section of the first post?

It's useful for evaluating the effects of stats on spells directly in-game. Allows to manually add crit/hit etc. to the equipped gear, also scans for buffs and debuffs on mobs and applies the modifiers accordingly. It's only missing manual haste modification at the moment, something the author will hopefully add in the near future.
#711SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Crepe
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
There are a few really good items that do only shadow damage: [Ritssyn's Lost Pendant], [Orb of the Soul-Eater], [Nethervoid Cloak], [Boots of the Shifting Nightmare] and the FSW, so it makes sense that warlocks run around doing with more +shadow damage over general spellpower.
You can enchant soulfrost over 40 damage to weapon, too, which would further increase the gap.
#712SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Idk
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Maybe it's worth using that simulator of yours to test a few other things? For example, it should be very easy for you now to figure out what dps gain you'd get with +157 spellpower, or what happens if you lose 5% hit.
It's easier to test the spell hit than the spellpower.. mostly because the spellpower numbers are taken straight from the spreadsheet where spell hit is something that I control directly in the simulator. That said, I can still take 157 damage off the spreadsheet, get the spell damage numbers, and run the simulation.
#713SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nikzor
Just a little side note a nice macro for soulstoneing its pretty similar to the Vash macro and works good


/use Master Soulstone
/script local coremsg = nil if (IsItemInRange("Master Soulstone","target") == 1) then coremsg = "SS on YOU" else coremsg = "Get closer for SS" end SendChatMessage(coremsg,"WHISPER","Orcish",UnitName("target"))

(for horde change the orcish if you are alliance)
#714SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bias
Hi, I'm loving this PVE Compedium and I'll just be adding to some of the discussion. I've had this damn uncertainty that's been bugging me for so long.

It's to do with the relative effectiveness of Spell Haste, especially to it's effectiveness vs Spell Crit. This is for 0/21/40 DS/SNF LOCKS ONLY. And for experiments sake, assume casting shadowbolts infinitely. The original poster says as a rough guide under destro : Spell hit > Spell crit / spell haste / spell dmg. I'm looking for an even more accurate heirachy.

Putting item budgets aside, I just want to know what 1 spell haste rating is worth compared to 1 spell crit rating. I've looked into shadowpriest.com (SimulationCraft/Scaling/Warlock - Shadowpriest.com Wiki) and it says that with 1100+ dmg, 200 hit, 400 spell crit:
1 Spell Damage = 0.795 dps increase
1 Spell Haste Rating = 0.663 dps increase
1 Spell Crit Rating = 0.396 dps increase

Even at lower spell crits, the order remains the same - Spell damage > Spell haste > Spell crit.

Now, I've been going off on that working out which pieces of gear are an upgrade for me by simply doing multiplication of the differences of stats and seeing which item has a higher dps increase. I'd just like to know if anyone else apart from this shadowpriest.com guy has done any solid experiments to test spell haste out.

I've been reading alot of opinionated theories like spell haste makes u go oom faster = more life tap = less dps, or spell haste is crap unless u stack it (which makes a little more sense) and so forth. What I'm requesting is if anyone out there knows the true relationship between spell haste/spell dmg/spell crit.

Thanks in advance =).
#715SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Bias View Post
Hi, I'm loving this PVE Compedium and I'll just be adding to some of the discussion. I've had this damn uncertainty that's been bugging me for so long.

It's to do with the relative effectiveness of Spell Haste, especially to it's effectiveness vs Spell Crit. This is for 0/21/40 DS/SNF LOCKS ONLY. And for experiments sake, assume casting shadowbolts infinitely. The original poster says as a rough guide under destro : Spell hit > Spell crit / spell haste / spell dmg. I'm looking for an even more accurate heirachy.

Putting item budgets aside, I just want to know what 1 spell haste rating is worth compared to 1 spell crit rating. I've looked into shadowpriest.com (SimulationCraft/Scaling/Warlock - Shadowpriest.com Wiki) and it says that with 1100+ dmg, 200 hit, 400 spell crit:
1 Spell Damage = 0.795 dps increase
1 Spell Haste Rating = 0.663 dps increase
1 Spell Crit Rating = 0.396 dps increase

Even at lower spell crits, the order remains the same - Spell damage > Spell haste > Spell crit.

Now, I've been going off on that working out which pieces of gear are an upgrade for me by simply doing multiplication of the differences of stats and seeing which item has a higher dps increase. I'd just like to know if anyone else apart from this shadowpriest.com guy has done any solid experiments to test spell haste out.

I've been reading alot of opinionated theories like spell haste makes u go oom faster = more life tap = less dps, or spell haste is crap unless u stack it (which makes a little more sense) and so forth. What I'm requesting is if anyone out there knows the true relationship between spell haste/spell dmg/spell crit.

Thanks in advance =).
I'm 0/21/40 and I base my data on ShadowSeer, which converts gained casting time into Shadow Bolt spam with Life Taps.

The haste > crit is based on the stats you have when you obtain haste gear (which used to be MH/BT). 1400 spell power, 29% crit, max hit. That gave me a pretty convincing "haste beats crit" by about 10-20%. This is including ISB.

Haste diminishes quite fast, however.

It's all relative, though. As mentioned in the guide.

Last edited by Arelenda : 12/22/07 at 7:49 PM.
#716SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tbonahydraxis
0/41/20???

First time poster and many page reader here...I'm very sorry if this topic has been covered before and if it has, please refer me to the page as I cannot find this discussion in depth.

Long story short, Our guild is still running Kara for a few people but most all are geared for the next level. My character is Tbona on hydraxis and I'm bored stiff with affliction...have been it too long. I only respec to aff when I'm needed to help with Illhoof or some no show for a dps slot.

Currently I'm 0/41/20 and love it. With my 'raiding' gear on I have 168 hit, and 24% crit, and 1216 spell damage (I'm at work, could be a smidge off. Items in possetion that may not be on armory are trinkets, spellstrike set, gladiators war staff and shifting probabilities cloak.) For Gruul's I do have a 202 hit set..just FYI

How viable is 0/41/20 for the next level (SSC, etc.)? For pet non-friendly encounters, send him in and sacrifice at appropiate time, adding 10% spell damage and 2% mana, or saccy sac.

By the spreadsheet I constantly show 0/41/20 in the running with 0/21/40 at my gear level. Anyone experienced with this? Or should I just suck it up and go with the old stand by 41/0/20>.<??? BTW we have 3 other warlocks(all affliction blends) and great healers.

Any and all advice much appreciated.

Thanks,

T
#717SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Tbonahydraxis View Post
First time poster and many page reader here...I'm very sorry if this topic has been covered before and if it has, please refer me to the page as I cannot find this discussion in depth.

Long story short, Our guild is still running Kara for a few people but most all are geared for the next level. My character is Tbona on hydraxis and I'm bored stiff with affliction...have been it too long. I only respec to aff when I'm needed to help with Illhoof or some no show for a dps slot.

Currently I'm 0/41/20 and love it. With my 'raiding' gear on I have 168 hit, and 24% crit, and 1216 spell damage (I'm at work, could be a smidge off. Items in possetion that may not be on armory are trinkets, spellstrike set, gladiators war staff and shifting probabilities cloak.) For Gruul's I do have a 202 hit set..just FYI

How viable is 0/41/20 for the next level (SSC, etc.)? For pet non-friendly encounters, send him in and sacrifice at appropiate time, adding 10% spell damage and 2% mana, or saccy sac.

By the spreadsheet I constantly show 0/41/20 in the running with 0/21/40 at my gear level. Anyone experienced with this? Or should I just suck it up and go with the old stand by 41/0/20>.<??? BTW we have 3 other warlocks(all affliction blends) and great healers.

Any and all advice much appreciated.

Thanks,

T
You might have demon your demon dying on pet-unsafe bosses. However, no one can deny the power of demonology on fights where it doesn't die. 0/40/21 is a very powerful alternative to classic 0/21/40, as well.

From the top of my head:

SSC:
good: Hydross, Lurker, Leotheras, Karatress (can tank Leo!)
good if 2p T5: Morogrim
bad: Vashj

TK:
good: Al'ar, VR
good if 2p T5: Kael'thas
not sure: Solarian

Hyjal: Most fights should be ok with demonology.
BT: some fights will require 2p T5, other than that it should be fine.

This is all from memory, there are good guides out there, there's one linked in the compendium and there's others on this forum. Do some research. I'm pretty sure a well played, well specced demonologist can be competitive on the meter.
#718SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0quickquestion
Quick question (as I don't have time to browse through 29 pages atm);

As 0/21/40, is it better to consistantly spam Shadowbolt even with Curse of Elements and full Scorch debuffs in a raid environment?

(1201dmg/202hit/19.87%crit)

Or would it be better to Immo -> SB and refresh Immolate during fades?
#719SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Antoine
I just got my Skull the other day, and it raised a question about trinket usage. I've been using them together when doom is about to come off cooldown, but Skull's on-use effect doesn't affect the GCD for Doom. Would the ideal thing be to pop Icon, hit doom, then pop Skull and start spamming SB?
#720SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 frmorrison
No amount of haste or Heroism will affect the GCD.

So your question is has the right scenario in it.
#721SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0ninielin
Hi there.

Just a quick question. for a shadow specced destruction warlock. Is it better to get illidan staff ( zhar'doom I think its spelled? ) or tempest of chaos + rage offhand? Assuming hit is capped ( well really easy to hit the cap with T6 items).
#722SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Afflictor
i played around with the new version of leulier last night and i was surprised by the results.

my stats were 1600 +shadow ( this fully raid buffed with a shaman totem)
27% crit, 0%haste, hit capped. also 4pt6 and CSD enabled in the advance options.

the results it gave me were that my next point of crit would be of the equivilent of 1.01 +dmg and the next point of haste 1.15 +dmg.

is this information correct? i have always been led to believe that +dmg was always the best, at this level of gear do crit and haste start to pull ahead?

Edit : 0/21/40

Last edited by Afflictor : 12/23/07 at 6:13 PM.
#723SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Afflictor View Post
i played around with the new version of leulier last night and i was surprised by the results.

my stats were 1600 +shadow ( this fully raid buffed with a shaman totem)
27% crit, 0%haste, hit capped. also 4pt6 and CSD enabled in the advance options.

the results it gave me were that my next point of crit would be of the equivilent of 1.01 +dmg and the next point of haste 1.15 +dmg.

is this information correct? i have always been led to believe that +dmg was always the best, at this level of gear do crit and haste start to pull ahead?
I suggest you read the compendium?


For your spec with your gear, I can confirm the statistics you're getting are correct. Damage about equal to crit, with haste being a tad better. I'm a bit below you and get around the same.

Last edited by Arelenda : 12/23/07 at 7:51 PM.
#724SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krazen
Originally Posted by ninielin View Post
Hi there.

Just a quick question. for a shadow specced destruction warlock. Is it better to get illidan staff ( zhar'doom I think its spelled? ) or tempest of chaos + rage offhand? Assuming hit is capped ( well really easy to hit the cap with T6 items).
I'm going for zhardoom, personally.

Zhardoom + Cowl of the Illidari Highlord + 4 pc t6 is the optimal gearset. Vashj robes can be substituted in, but few people will farm SSC for those.
#725SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Afflictor
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
I'm going for zhardoom, personally.

Zhardoom + Cowl of the Illidari Highlord + 4 pc t6 is the optimal gearset. Vashj robes can be substituted in, but few people will farm SSC for those.

yes zhardoom icnhes ahead of tempest +chronicle but im 99% sure 4piece then leggings of channeled elements are the best combo. when i ran my spreadsheet last night i found that illidari helm is about 9dmg equivilent above t6, channeled elements are around 20 and vashj robes with very high end gear actually pull ahead with around 22 dmg above t6 robes. pretty much a toss up between leggings and vashj robe.
#726SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krazen
Originally Posted by Afflictor View Post
yes zhardoom icnhes ahead of tempest +chronicle but im 99% sure 4piece then leggings of channeled elements are the best combo. when i ran my spreadsheet last night i found that illidari helm is about 9dmg equivilent above t6, channeled elements are around 20 and vashj robes with very high end gear actually pull ahead with around 22 dmg above t6 robes. pretty much a toss up between leggings and vashj robe.
I guess it depends on whose spreadsheet you are using and how you socket. I punched the numbers into Leulier's and I had channeled elements at a 10 dps difference and the cowl had a 9 dps difference. The cowl, however, allows you to use a blue gem without penalty.
#727SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0ninielin
Mmm okay I ll go zhardoom. I guess my guts tell me 55 haste doesn't outperform the loss of 34 hit and 42 dmg ( since you have to get other + hit items on the rest of your armor, like nethervoid cloak instead of illidari).
#728SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krazen
Originally Posted by ninielin View Post
Mmm okay I ll go zhardoom. I guess my guts tell me 55 haste doesn't outperform the loss of 34 hit and 42 dmg ( since you have to get other + hit items on the rest of your armor, like nethervoid cloak instead of illidari).
Well, the assumption is that you don't need the hit at this level of gear. Keep in mind nethervoid has a +11 dmg advantage (and some stats) over illidari.
#729SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Cohren
Can you post a gear list so that I can crunch the numbers? For the life of me I cannot make Zhar'doom come out ahead of ToC+OH
#730SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Shuko
Originally Posted by Cohren View Post
Can you post a gear list so that I can crunch the numbers? For the life of me I cannot make Zhar'doom come out ahead of ToC+OH
I didnt manage to do it either. Below is best set Ive managed to put together so far.

Using 1.17v Leulier with max debuffs casting just CoE and SB:

chardev.org - World of Warcraft Character Planer .beta
1349shadow dmg
28,31% crit
16,24% hit
5,71% haste
1575dps, (1604 with CSD)


Best with staff:

chardev.org - World of Warcraft Character Planer .beta
1313
26,08
16
9,2
1563 (1593)
#731SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0weet
Comparing the two weapon choices in a tank and spank style situation, without considering +dmg buffs and how much mana regen you actually have in a raid situation is going to create a huge false impression.

Adding those things will mean that the staff pulls ahead.
#732SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
Yeah imo if you want good results with lieuler, you have to assume fight length and adjust lifetap frequency to make you oom at the end of the fight, and enter all mana available to you in the fight as either mp5 or plain mana. Then change your gear/whatever and do the same thing with same fight duration and see what gives more DPS.

Is there a new version that actually lets you set fight duration and adjust lifetap by it? And if not will it be added? How about buffs on the imp for affliction warlocks?
#733SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Cohren
Honestly who cares about the "best case scenario." I don't know about other people but I'm looking for the best SB spamming gear set with Life Tap set to needed, CoS(CoE) casted and assuming all raid debuffs such as Misery, Shadow Weaving etc... and unbuffed(no fel armor either) DPS gear set. So far the best I can come up with is 1544.41 with the ToC+OH. No staff combination I've come up with comes close to that with the new spreadsheet.

Cohren - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger

Thats the link to the numbers I used.
#734SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Suggestive
Why would you set up a situation without ANY buffs, including your own self cast buff? I can understand not accounting for a shaman for example, but what you're doing frankly doesn't make sense. You don't go into encounters with zero buffs, so why account for it?
#735SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Shuko
ToC+OH
chardev.org - World of Warcraft Character Planer .beta
DPS: 1620
Raid DPS: 2104

Staff
chardev.org - World of Warcraft Character Planer .beta
1606
2096

weet staff
weetbix - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger
1601
2101

Raid buffs:

130 fel armor
80 flask
101 WoA
42 oil
23 food

49 BoW
250 SP
62 Imp MS

~0.8% crit from int (AB & BoK)

Regen values are taken from the Leuliers sheets examples.

Talents etc used in sheet:

CSD meta gem

dem aegis 3
sac 1

isb 5
cata 5
bane 5
ruin 1
sf 5

sw 1,1
mise 1,05
cos 1,13

isb model 50%

Last edited by Shuko : 12/25/07 at 2:17 PM.
#736SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0weet
Compare this staff setup to yours, should come out a bit higher again. (would swap to a pyrestone for horde for the 2 hit rating to get to cap, but no need as alliance)

weetbix - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger

In reality the hyjal ring is undervalued in spreadsheets though so that should be in a proper gearset.
#737SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Cohren
Originally Posted by Suggestive View Post
Why would you set up a situation without ANY buffs, including your own self cast buff? I can understand not accounting for a shaman for example, but what you're doing frankly doesn't make sense. You don't go into encounters with zero buffs, so why account for it?
Because there needs to be some parameters setup so that when people post thier numbers and link to a gear set, the numbers can be reached. Also adding in Fel Armor, Flask, etc... will not make the gear set which comes out with the lower DPS unbuffed higher than that same gear set if you add in all the buffs. Its for simplicity and common ground. This isn't some e-peen thing where we all post and go "zomg I calculated a gear set that pumps out 203948248 DPS!!!!!!!!!! COPY ME!!!!"

Also weet your gear set is unrealistic for the majority of the end game Warlock community as guilds like mine will not ever go back to SSC

Last edited by Cohren : 12/25/07 at 11:01 AM.
#738SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Idk
Originally Posted by Cohren View Post
Because there needs to be some parameters setup so that when people post thier numbers and link to a gear set, the numbers can be reached. Also adding in Fel Armor, Flask, etc... will not make the gear set which comes out with the lower DPS unbuffed higher than that same gear set if you add in all the buffs. Its for simplicity and common ground. This isn't some e-peen thing where we all post and go "zomg I calculated a gear set that pumps out 203948248 DPS!!!!!!!!!! COPY ME!!!!"

Also weet your gear set is unrealistic for the majority of the end game Warlock community as guilds like mine will not ever go back to SSC
1. Yes, the buffs do matter. For one, a gear set with 202 hit rating will be wasting item value in a group that includes an elemental shaman. On top of this, the value of stats relative to one another change as your stats change. As your spell damage increases, the value of 1 haste or 1 crit will increase relative to 1 spell damage. For example, let's assume a destro lock with 1000 spell damage and 40% crit does the same damage as the same specced lock with 1200 spell damage and 30% crit (these are made up numbers).. if both locks get 200 spell damage from consumables, the first lock will produce more damage from that same 200 spell damage buff.

If you want accurate gear comparisons you need to factor in as many variables as you can and this includes raid buffs.

2. Why should he tailor his gear set to accommodate warlocks who aren't going back to SSC?
#739SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Cohren View Post
Because there needs to be some parameters setup so that when people post thier numbers and link to a gear set, the numbers can be reached. Also adding in Fel Armor, Flask, etc... will not make the gear set which comes out with the lower DPS unbuffed higher than that same gear set if you add in all the buffs. Its for simplicity and common ground. This isn't some e-peen thing where we all post and go "zomg I calculated a gear set that pumps out 203948248 DPS!!!!!!!!!! COPY ME!!!!"

Also weet your gear set is unrealistic for the majority of the end game Warlock community as guilds like mine will not ever go back to SSC
Calculating a raid gear set and posting numbers excluding Fel Armor, and calling other people's set unrealistic in the same post is rather ironic.

If you're looking for "best gear set for 0/21/40 warlocks that excludes all buffs but includes all raid debuffs and excludes SSC gear", you're free to do so. I don't particularly see how the results are useful to anyone but you, though. As has been pointed out, hit/crit/haste/damage ratios will depend on your statistics, and a potential gear set that comes out on top with no buffs can easily be outdone by another when you calculate in Fel Armor, consumables, a Draenei Shaman, and the tons of other buffs/debuffs you can expect in a raid.

But let's keep our responses mature, respectful and most of all, constructive.
#740SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Antoine
What model are you guys who are making ideal setups using for ISB uptime?
using chardev.org - World of Warcraft Character Planer .beta and the same raid buffs as above (shaman, not counting tide, tow, or bloodlust, spriest, flask, oil, food, wisdom, kings, ai), I got

Last edited by Antoine : 12/25/07 at 1:18 PM.
#741SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Shuko
Originally Posted by weet View Post
Compare this staff setup to yours, should come out a bit higher again. (would swap to a pyrestone for horde for the 2 hit rating to get to cap, but no need as alliance)

weetbix - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger

In reality the hyjal ring is undervalued in spreadsheets though so that should be in a proper gearset.

Updated the post above.

I know the hyjal rep ring is underrated, but havent seen any real calculations of its effective dmg.

EDIT:

I suck at math, so someone correct.

15sec buff
60sec cd (45cd, 15buff)

dmg x SF x SB eff x sac
dmg per bolt = 95 x 1.2 x (3/3.5) x 1.15

15sec/2.5 = 6sb
6 x dmg per bolt = 674
674 / 60sec = 11dps

Last edited by Shuko : 12/25/07 at 2:53 PM.
#742SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Shuko
Originally Posted by Antoine View Post
What model are you guys who are making ideal setups using for ISB uptime?
Using the default "custom 50%". Updated the post above with more accurate numbers.
#743SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
Setting lifetap to "needed" isn't very realistic, as you do not finish a fight with full mana. Setting it to "manual" and adjusting the frequency such that the "time until oom" will match the fight duration is going to give you much more realistic results.
#744SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0weet
Originally Posted by Cohren View Post
Because there needs to be some parameters setup so that when people post thier numbers and link to a gear set, the numbers can be reached. Also adding in Fel Armor, Flask, etc... will not make the gear set which comes out with the lower DPS unbuffed higher than that same gear set if you add in all the buffs. Its for simplicity and common ground. This isn't some e-peen thing where we all post and go "zomg I calculated a gear set that pumps out 203948248 DPS!!!!!!!!!! COPY ME!!!!"

Also weet your gear set is unrealistic for the majority of the end game Warlock community as guilds like mine will not ever go back to SSC
Well the purpose of theorycrafting gear is, for me at least to find the optimal gear-set in MY average raid situation. So the point of adding buffs to the equation is not to arbitrarily make the dps column higher but to more accurately portray what is in fact happening for me when I raid. And 95% of the time on anything that matters (and for sunwell)I do/will have those buffs. And alot of other people would be in the same situation.

And as others have said above, the buffs do change the relative value of some gear stats significantly. Even with a lifetap model of 'needed' with raid mp/5 buffs, which i still consider a significantly higher life tap freqency than what I would rate my usual 'needed lifetaps when in a situation where i can be casting shadowbolt' haste's value grows alot higher in comparison to damage with raid buffs and mana regen.

As regards to vashj robes, this is theorycraft - if something is out of your reach itemwise you can adjust your own parameters upon item selection, but you cannot put that restriction on everyone globally.. in that case I was simply linking a gearset as the highest theoretically. In reality, personally some items such as the cape off of illidari council I cannot get in a reasonable time frame so I have my own wishlist gearset which excludes that, but it is simply worse than the best possible.

In terms of ISB models changing from a static value to one of the modeled settings only really changes the value of crit vs damage from what I can see, yet the models are self-only so it is inflated quite a bit. Haste increases number of ISB procs over a timer period anyway, so given that the relative raid dps return of each crit becomes diminished with more destro locks I don't see much of an inaccuracy problem with using a static value around 50%. If you just focus on personal dps, the best gearsets are going to have a respectable amount of crit and haste due to the item budget.

re: Hyjal exalted ring: this link has an estimation for a 10 second duration 35sec cooldown version, which is obviously not the same as the current ring but gives some idea.
SimulationCraft/Trinkets/Warlock - Shadowpriest.com Wiki
#745SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
Problem is you want how much the *raid* dps increases, not how much your own dps increases. So ignoring other people's dps from your crits totally undervalues crit. Then again it might not be undervaluing it *that* much - can't really tell without a more realistic ISB model.
#746SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Problem is you want how much the *raid* dps increases, not how much your own dps increases. So ignoring other people's dps from your crits totally undervalues crit. Then again it might not be undervaluing it *that* much - can't really tell without a more realistic ISB model.
_if_ Blizzard fixes their damage reporting system, I'll be able to rewrite ShadowSeer so it gives you 100% exact accurate data on ISB. This is supposed to happen in 2.4. We'll see how it goes.

For now, 50% uptime (on bosses) seems a relatively sane guess.
#747SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
What the actual SB uptime isn't as important as knowing how much that uptime would actually change as you change your crit chance. As we're trying to evaluate gear here rather than just say how much dps you're going to be doing. While 50% may be a good approximation to calculate personal dps benefits, it completely neglects the change to that 50% that will happen if you change your crit rate.

As for all the guys doing unbuffed VS buffed comparisons... On one hand your results shouldn't differ *too* much, as changing your stats isn't that big of a deal regarding how good each stat is, however if you want to be as accurate as you can you should obviuosly take as much as possible into account. Since going unbuffed will give slight bias towards certain stats (depending what buffs you're neglecting) it doesn't make sense to calculate unbuffed DPS. Of course it will only make the difference when comparing items that are already pretty close - if 1 item is WAY superior to the other it won't matter if you do the comparison with or without buffs.
Also remember that if you want accurate gear evaluation use the stats you have on your character at the moment (or will have very soon assuming you know you're getting that upgrade for sure) will give you much more realistic item evaluation. This may differ from what other people may get for those items, but what you need to know at the end is if this item is good for YOU, not someone who has all the best gear in the game except that one item. Again this is only going to make a difference for items that are already very very close in value so it probably doesn't matter anyway.
#748SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Fireye
I throw myself upon the mercy of the Elitist Jerks thread of awesomeness and win.

I've had a devil of a time deciding what to do with my Heroic Badges. I recently applied to a raiding group that's been killing Vashj and Kael for the past two weeks, and I have high hopes of getting in. I'm at the spellhit cap, but just barely. I'm having a killer time finding items to purchase with my heroic badges that will increase my damage done on a boss target. Can you guys help me decide just what would be a worthwhile purchase?

The World of Warcraft Armory
I have the Voidheart Gloves, the Brooch of Unquenchable Fury, Mindstorm Wristbands, Orb of the Soul Eater, and the Mantle of Ill Intent.

Because a lot of my +hit comes from my gloves, I can't take the Studious Wraps. I have a small amount of +hit on my bracers, so the Runed Spellcuffs are out. I have 15 +hit on my pants, I can make that up by switching my neckpiece around, but overall I would lose 40 +dmg and gain 45 haste rating but I don't see that as a totally positive gain. The belt is a very small upgrade, but I trade +dmg for crit and some hit.

Should I just sit on my badges until I get enough +hit gear to be able to get the pants, or should I go for something now? These things are burning a hole in my pocket!
#749SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
Getting 375 tailoring and FSW+spellstrike will up your DPS a lot and make it much easier for you to hit the cap - both because of the hit on spellstrike and becuase of the 5 dmg 4 hit gems you can place in the many sockets on those sets, not to mention the incredible amount of spell damage those sets provide. Isn't "pick tailoring if you're seroius" a part of the main post?... If it isn't it definitely should be mentioned somewhere there. Getting good dps without T5/6 and without tailoring is just not possible. Well possible but you will have a very hard time competing.

Note that if you need hit and don't need stamina, no socket bonus is ever really worth it over just socketing full 5 dmg 4 hit gems until you're capped. Generally with reasonable gear you shouldn't need to use 8 hit gems to cap your hit.
#750SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Fireye
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Getting 375 tailoring and FSW+spellstrike will up your DPS a lot and make it much easier for you to hit the cap - both because of the hit on spellstrike and becuase of the 5 dmg 4 hit gems you can place in the many sockets on those sets, not to mention the incredible amount of spell damage those sets provide. Isn't "pick tailoring if you're seroius" a part of the main post?... If it isn't it definitely should be mentioned somewhere there. Getting good dps without T5/6 and without tailoring is just not possible. Well possible but you will have a very hard time competing.

Note that if you need hit and don't need stamina, no socket bonus is ever really worth it over just socketing full 5 dmg 4 hit gems until you're capped. Generally with reasonable gear you shouldn't need to use 8 hit gems to cap your hit.

I've made a choice not to pick up tailoring. It's obvious that you can get by without that, albeit tougher. I enjoy being an alchemist, and gaining access to some ilvl 105 gear isn't worth the change. It's entirely possible to put out good DPS without T5/T6. The best? Obviously not, but competitive with the group that I'd be running with? Yes.

Anywho, I'm not asking for general advice on my gear, it's obvious that there are improvements to be made. I just haven't had access to higher level raid content yet. Opinions on the new badge gear, and maybe some advice on how to work it into a boss gear set?
#751SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0DaveA50
Originally Posted by Fireye View Post
I've made a choice not to pick up tailoring. It's obvious that you can get by without that, albeit tougher. I enjoy being an alchemist, and gaining access to some ilvl 105 gear isn't worth the change. It's entirely possible to put out good DPS without T5/T6. The best? Obviously not, but competitive with the group that I'd be running with? Yes.

Anywho, I'm not asking for general advice on my gear, it's obvious that there are improvements to be made. I just haven't had access to higher level raid content yet. Opinions on the new badge gear, and maybe some advice on how to work it into a boss gear set?
The best way to look at it is by looking to the future. If the piece of gear will only be replaced by something in MH/BT, which you will hopefully be visiting soon, then it is worth it. Not being hit capped isn't the biggest deal for a short time. If the piece of gear can be replaced by something from SSC/TK, then keep what you have already.
#752SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Trickykid
Originally Posted by Fireye View Post
Anywho, I'm not asking for general advice on my gear, it's obvious that there are improvements to be made. I just haven't had access to higher level raid content yet. Opinions on the new badge gear, and maybe some advice on how to work it into a boss gear set?
Actually you are asking general advice on your gear since you want to know "how to work it into a boss gear set". You're pointing out that you aren't able to take what might be upgrades because you're afraid of losing 202 hit rating, which isn't too hard with properly socketed tailoring gear.

Opinions on the badge gear don't really matter since it's a simple stat versus stat situation. Plug the numbers into the spreadsheet and see, at your gear level, which pieces are upgrades. You'll be able to determine if dropping the hit is worth it as well as which pieces are worth foregoing for raid loot.
#753SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0weet
Well obviously your #1 problem at the moment is having to socket too much hit, so try to get at least one of belt of blasting/vashj robes/t5 legs as soon as possible (guessing the belt would be the easiest to get) and you should have more room to incorporate those badge/za items into your gear.
#754SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Fireye
I didn't realize that the spreadsheet's interpretation of haste was valid. I'll use that, thanks.
#755SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krazen
Originally Posted by Fireye View Post
I've made a choice not to pick up tailoring. It's obvious that you can get by without that, albeit tougher. I enjoy being an alchemist, and gaining access to some ilvl 105 gear isn't worth the change. It's entirely possible to put out good DPS without T5/T6. The best? Obviously not, but competitive with the group that I'd be running with? Yes.

Anywho, I'm not asking for general advice on my gear, it's obvious that there are improvements to be made. I just haven't had access to higher level raid content yet. Opinions on the new badge gear, and maybe some advice on how to work it into a boss gear set?
A belt of blasting would free up 23 hit. Do that, and then equip the Fetish of the Primal Gods OH. Since you seem to be an applicant, I don't believe they'll be handing you vashj or t5 robes any time soon, so you might want to consider picking up t4 robes (for the 2 pc bonus).

Hood of Hexing will give you all the hit you need, and then some extra on top of that. For now, though, you could regem that 6 dmg/4 int gem into a 4/5 topaz, allowing you to put another 4/5 topaz in your gloves. Mindstorm wristbands are excellent; I'd equip them right now over what you have even if you lose ~.5% hit.
#756SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ammanas
Originally Posted by Fireye View Post
I throw myself upon the mercy of the Elitist Jerks thread of awesomeness and win.

I've had a devil of a time deciding what to do with my Heroic Badges. I recently applied to a raiding group that's been killing Vashj and Kael for the past two weeks, and I have high hopes of getting in. I'm at the spellhit cap, but just barely. I'm having a killer time finding items to purchase with my heroic badges that will increase my damage done on a boss target. Can you guys help me decide just what would be a worthwhile purchase?

The World of Warcraft Armory
I have the Voidheart Gloves, the Brooch of Unquenchable Fury, Mindstorm Wristbands, Orb of the Soul Eater, and the Mantle of Ill Intent.

Because a lot of my +hit comes from my gloves, I can't take the Studious Wraps. I have a small amount of +hit on my bracers, so the Runed Spellcuffs are out. I have 15 +hit on my pants, I can make that up by switching my neckpiece around, but overall I would lose 40 +dmg and gain 45 haste rating but I don't see that as a totally positive gain. The belt is a very small upgrade, but I trade +dmg for crit and some hit.

Should I just sit on my badges until I get enough +hit gear to be able to get the pants, or should I go for something now? These things are burning a hole in my pocket!
Just some general advice: yes, hit is the best stat if you are not hit capped. However, while you should value it over the other stats and strive to be hit capped you should not severely gimp your damage/crit/haste to maintain 202 hit rating.
#757SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
Originally Posted by Ammanas View Post
Just some general advice: yes, hit is the best stat if you are not hit capped. However, while you should value it over the other stats and strive to be hit capped you should not severely gimp your damage/crit/haste to maintain 202 hit rating.
Define "severely". As long as you're not losing more dmg than the hit equivalent on the spreadsheet, it's worth it to cap hit... This would mean you can lose a pretty damn high amount of spell dmg for hit and it'll still be worth it, however obviously there's an amount of spell dmg that will beat crit anyway. Instead of asking a million questions you could just look at the spreadsheet. tbh though if I was a guild officer I wouldn't consider someone who couldn't bother with the tailoring gear so far into TBC release.
#758SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PsyBomb
Hit cap is actually quite easy to maintain, this is sans tailoring and having never set foot in anything above Magtheridon's Lair. Our T4 set pieces are absolutely loaded with it, and the new badge gear is very nice as well. At this point, I have the 202 Hit set (Has just over 1k shadow self-buffed and 15% crit) and angling to get some different pieces so that I can free up some slots for other stats. Look at my armory if you want any ideas for any easy-to-get items.
#759SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krazen
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Define "severely". As long as you're not losing more dmg than the hit equivalent on the spreadsheet, it's worth it to cap hit... This would mean you can lose a pretty damn high amount of spell dmg for hit and it'll still be worth it, however obviously there's an amount of spell dmg that will beat crit anyway. Instead of asking a million questions you could just look at the spreadsheet. tbh though if I was a guild officer I wouldn't consider someone who couldn't bother with the tailoring gear so far into TBC release.
If I recall, 1 point of hit is in the neighborhood of 1.5 damage or so.
#760SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
If I recall, 1 point of hit is in the neighborhood of 1.5 damage or so.
It depends on your spec more than anything, but my rule of thumb would be:

1 hit = 1.3 damage (on raid bosses when not capped)
1 hit = 0 damage (on anything else)
#761SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
If I recall, 1 point of hit is in the neighborhood of 1.5 damage or so.
More or less what I meant - some people would see their spell dmg drop under 1k when they cap their hit and think that's really bad even though they may have just lost maybe 1.2 dmg per 1 hit rating at worst - this is not severly gimping your spell dmg for hit this is actually increasing your dps.
#762SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0deneba
0/40/21 vs. 0/41/20

I am trying to get a feeling for how these specs compare for a warlock who has achieved the 2/5 T5 bonus and carries the Solarian class trinket.

0/40/21 would keep a lower dps, more frail succubus up, but would offer up a bigger master demonologist bonus plus Ruin.

0/41/20 would keep a tougher, higher dps felguard up, but give up a bit of the MD damage bonus and Ruin disappears.

So far I am leaning toward the former--as I continue to stack crit, my experience has been that Ruin is great compensation for the times where my pet accidentally dies... as a demonology warlock I lose out when that happens (obviously) but Ruin dulls the blow a bit. But I've read some amazing things about 200dps felguards tearing it up in SSC and TK (most fights, anyway) once they have the 2/5 T5 and trinket supporting them. What I can't find is much information on how a succubus holds up (actively dpsing) in the same fights. Is it pretty likely that a succubus would survive most boss fights that a felguard would survive? Or, is she just too frail and best left on passive?
#763SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Amandil
I was wondering could someone clear a few things up for me. In a 0/21/40 spec, how does Corruption and Immolate fit in? This may have been mentioned before and I missed it. I've heard differing opinions on whether or not to add Corruption and Immolate to a cast sequence. As far as I can see, Corruption would be doing 3500-4000dmg for a 2 sec cast, in a 25man. It seems pretty clear that sticking both immo and corr in would improve dps overall, but, at some point as crit increases, is it better to leave them out? If so, when?
#764SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PsyBomb
Originally Posted by Amandil View Post
I was wondering could someone clear a few things up for me. In a 0/21/40 spec, how does Corruption and Immolate fit in? This may have been mentioned before and I missed it. I've heard differing opinions on whether or not to add Corruption and Immolate to a cast sequence. As far as I can see, Corruption would be doing 3500-4000dmg for a 2 sec cast, in a 25man. It seems pretty clear that sticking both immo and corr in would improve dps overall, but, at some point as crit increases, is it better to leave them out? If so, when?
In both cases, only use the spell if you know that you will get the full effect (same goes if you're allowed a damage curse, rather than a raid-boosting one). If you will, great. If not, then you're losing DPS when compared to shadowbolting. To the best of my knowledge, this never stops being true.
#765SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
Corruption is calculated as a dps LOSS for 0/21/40 afaik. Very small loss but why bother. Immolate gets similar results except you need to either lack imp scorch or have some haste for it to actually be a small dps loss rather than a small dps gain. Also there is currently no really accurate imp SB model that will show how much dps your raid is losing by you casting immolate instead of shadowbolt every once in a while.
#766SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by PsyBomb View Post
In both cases, only use the spell if you know that you will get the full effect (same goes if you're allowed a damage curse, rather than a raid-boosting one). If you will, great. If not, then you're losing DPS when compared to shadowbolting. To the best of my knowledge, this never stops being true.
It actually does stop being true. Extra hit, crit, haste and spellpower are ALL in favor of Shadow Bolt for that spec. Also there are the shorter range, interruption, debuff and threat factors.

At low gear levels (starting Karazhan) Immolate and Corruption are better dps. As your stats increase there is a grey zone, and at the end of Hyjal/BT Shadow Bolt spam is just better. The grey zone is grey because of ISB and the value you put on the factors I mentioned before.
#767SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by deneba View Post
I am trying to get a feeling for how these specs compare for a warlock who has achieved the 2/5 T5 bonus and carries the Solarian class trinket.

0/40/21 would keep a lower dps, more frail succubus up, but would offer up a bigger master demonologist bonus plus Ruin.

0/41/20 would keep a tougher, higher dps felguard up, but give up a bit of the MD damage bonus and Ruin disappears.

So far I am leaning toward the former--as I continue to stack crit, my experience has been that Ruin is great compensation for the times where my pet accidentally dies... as a demonology warlock I lose out when that happens (obviously) but Ruin dulls the blow a bit. But I've read some amazing things about 200dps felguards tearing it up in SSC and TK (most fights, anyway) once they have the 2/5 T5 and trinket supporting them. What I can't find is much information on how a succubus holds up (actively dpsing) in the same fights. Is it pretty likely that a succubus would survive most boss fights that a felguard would survive? Or, is she just too frail and best left on passive?
I tried it, the day we learned Bloodboil. It was a nightmare. Whenever she died I was severely handicapped, and asking for buffs on her was a major pain since no healers have pets on their raid screen. I kept getting ressed last and having no time to actually summon my Succubus before group buffs. My Shadow Bolts hit for significantly less due to missing out on SnF (Demonic Knowledge didn't compensate enough).

She's _very_ frail and needs constant looking after, she doesn't have the 50% aoe avoidance the Felguard has, and can't use Lash of Pain on the primary target. (because it eats ISB)

However:
- most of the problems I had are avoidable. I was new at the spec and at the fight.
- I did not have the trinket (although I had 2p T5)
- I didn't have the "dismiss" macro (linked in the compendium)
- It theoritically has a really high payout, especially if your gear does not sport very high spellpower and if the Succubus can dps as well.
- it is very fight dependent, and Bloodboil is probably not the best fight due to random poison damage being done to the Succubus

I'm not saying it's a bad spec, it's a potentially very effective spec, and it comes with Fire damage tanking capacities. The downside is that it is harder to play, and your performance will depend on the encounter being pet friendly, moreso than the Felguard spec.
#768SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PSGarak
HOW TO: Incorporate ISB-Uptime Changes In A Raid Scenario Into A Spreadsheet

You need two extra data fields that you have to assume are relatively constant, and which you will have to obtain from your other warlocks and shadowpriests by either asking them about their cycle or parsing their data. You need the frequency of incoming shadow spells, and you need the ISB proc rate (or preferably ISB proc frequency, in procs/sec).

From these, you add your own SB casting measure and proc frequency, and you get your raid-average ISB proc rate, from which you get raid ISB uptime from 1-(1-x)^4. This should give you a dynamic ISB uptime model that matches a raid expectation and reflects the effect of your crit rating on your shadow damage including ISB uptime.

If you have an estimate of your raid's average pre-ISB shadow damage (or post-ISB damage and ISB uptime) you can us it to figure out the extra damage loss/gain from the change in ISB uptime, and therefore the explicit value of damage to crit counting raid damage rather than personal damage.
#769SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Krazen
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
HOW TO: Incorporate ISB-Uptime Changes In A Raid Scenario Into A Spreadsheet

You need two extra data fields that you have to assume are relatively constant, and which you will have to obtain from your other warlocks and shadowpriests by either asking them about their cycle or parsing their data. You need the frequency of incoming shadow spells, and you need the ISB proc rate (or preferably ISB proc frequency, in procs/sec).

From these, you add your own SB casting measure and proc frequency, and you get your raid-average ISB proc rate, from which you get raid ISB uptime from 1-(1-x)^4. This should give you a dynamic ISB uptime model that matches a raid expectation and reflects the effect of your crit rating on your shadow damage including ISB uptime.

If you have an estimate of your raid's average pre-ISB shadow damage (or post-ISB damage and ISB uptime) you can us it to figure out the extra damage loss/gain from the change in ISB uptime, and therefore the explicit value of damage to crit counting raid damage rather than personal damage.
I wonder if some observational Dr. Boom testing can give us reasonable figures:

Take your normal shadow raiding crew and unlearn your destruction talents, nuking Dr. Boom for 5 minutes. Record individual and total DPS.

Have all the warlocks person put 5 points into ISB and repeat the test, recording individual and total DPS. Note the % increase in individual and raid DPS.

From there, we could probably extrapolate what the value of 1 point in crit is for both criteria. It won't be exact, but since everything is in percentage terms, the results should reasonably carry over to a raid buffed setting. The problem I primarily see is that ISB uptime has some sort of S curve behavior, and the value of 1 point of crit varies accordingly.

Last edited by Krazen : 12/28/07 at 11:31 PM.
#770SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
HOW TO: Incorporate ISB-Uptime Changes In A Raid Scenario Into A Spreadsheet

You need two extra data fields that you have to assume are relatively constant, and which you will have to obtain from your other warlocks and shadowpriests by either asking them about their cycle or parsing their data. You need the frequency of incoming shadow spells, and you need the ISB proc rate (or preferably ISB proc frequency, in procs/sec).

From these, you add your own SB casting measure and proc frequency, and you get your raid-average ISB proc rate, from which you get raid ISB uptime from 1-(1-x)^4. This should give you a dynamic ISB uptime model that matches a raid expectation and reflects the effect of your crit rating on your shadow damage including ISB uptime.

If you have an estimate of your raid's average pre-ISB shadow damage (or post-ISB damage and ISB uptime) you can us it to figure out the extra damage loss/gain from the change in ISB uptime, and therefore the explicit value of damage to crit counting raid damage rather than personal damage.
Now to make lieuler's spreadsheet do it automatically so I can point warlocks at it to evaluate their gear

While this looks very, very rough, it also seems incredibly more accurate than just assuming a fixed ISB time and/or just ignoring the raid dps benefit of ISB.
#771SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Spline
After playing around with Leulier's ISB simulator, I managed to learn that stacking crit for the purpose of increasing ISB uptime will not have noticeable results. Why? Several things are going on to account for this. I first noticed that the simulated uptime for a single 10min fight varies by as much as 15% with an average destro-demo-aff-SP crew. It's easy to find an average over multiple fights by increasing the fight length - at 10,000 seconds, the variance is less than 5%. With this fight length, I tried adding varying amounts of crit to each Warlock. As expected, giving crit to Destrolock had the strongest effect on ISB, which sadly wasn't very much. 10% crit added to Destro only pushed uptime up by 5% or so.

Going back to the 15% variance between 10min fights. I could severely mutilate my gear in order to gain that 10% crit. However, I wouldn't notice that 5% gained uptime on an individual attempt, since the random variance is so large. I suppose that on average, there will be more uptime over a large number of fights, but on a single fight the random-number-generator is going to have a stronger effect on uptime than anyone's individual crit rating.
#772SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Krazen
Originally Posted by Spline View Post
After playing around with Leulier's ISB simulator, I managed to learn that stacking crit for the purpose of increasing ISB uptime will not have noticeable results. Why? Several things are going on to account for this. I first noticed that the simulated uptime for a single 10min fight varies by as much as 15% with an average destro-demo-aff-SP crew. It's easy to find an average over multiple fights by increasing the fight length - at 10,000 seconds, the variance is less than 5%. With this fight length, I tried adding varying amounts of crit to each Warlock. As expected, giving crit to Destrolock had the strongest effect on ISB, which sadly wasn't very much. 10% crit added to Destro only pushed uptime up by 5% or so.
Taking these figures:

I'll assume 1000 shadow dps per user before ISB:

An additional 5% presence of the 20% damage boost provides a 10 dps boost.

Now, at the hit cap, the leulier spreadsheet provides that 1 spellpower provides a .80-.87 dps boost depending on your crit. I'll assume .85, thus the 10 dps = 11.8 spellpower.

Thus, 221 crit rating has the additional bonus of 11.8 spellpower (per shadow user other than yourself), or about .0534 per point in crit rating.


So, splitting the value of crit into some function X + Y, where X is the value of 1 crit to yourself and Y is the value of 1 crit to everyone else:

X is .58 with the base leulier values. You can insert your own value here.
Y is .05*Z, where Z is the number of other shadow users in the raid.

I don't know if I'm way off or my math is wrong, but that number doesn't seem unreasonable.

Last edited by Krazen : 12/29/07 at 6:19 PM.
#773SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0witchedwiz
a lil question :P
currently my equip consist of two "sets" (2 x t4 pieces, 2 x spellstrike) and we are stuck on vashj (let's just say that some of us lack the motivation, so to speak)...
is it worth it to throw a need at any t5 pieces (head/legs mostly.. since hands don't interest me the sligthest having both attumen hands and studious wraps wich i currently use)?
and when exactly is it worth to spec into destru shadow? (%crit chance in tootip incl 3 backlash and min spelldmg would be appreciated).. i already have some other crit equi (s3 silk cloth bracers for one, boots of blasting... got no belts of blasting so far, since it didn't drop)...
and is it REALLY worth to try to regem a bit my gear in order to fit in darkmoon faire crusade + icon, evnetually reverting back to attumen's hands//jewel of infinite possibilities//ashyen's gift//other to compensate for the loss of the bloodscryer gem? (i have all those items already, so it's simply a matter of swapping//regemming).. or should i just wait for the next batch of upgrade (vashj chest, some tk drop [we've abandoned tk till we down vashj :X]) and then re-trim my equip (consider that as far as caster items are concerned, i'm third dkp-wise on the current "raiding" roster, and second in a lock-only items perspective)?
just a side note :P refrain from any comment on my sucky wand <_> i've had no luck with magtheridon/aran/black stalk since september (started again at the beginning of september and geared myself completely from green/blue drops with the help of my guildmates:X) and i'm getting so depressed that i'm starting to consider the badge wand :X
#774SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by witchedwiz View Post
a lil question :P
currently my equip consist of two "sets" (2 x t4 pieces, 2 x spellstrike) and we are stuck on vashj (let's just say that some of us lack the motivation, so to speak)...
is it worth it to throw a need at any t5 pieces (head/legs mostly.. since hands don't interest me the sligthest having both attumen hands and studious wraps wich i currently use)?
and when exactly is it worth to spec into destru shadow? (%crit chance in tootip incl 3 backlash and min spelldmg would be appreciated).. i already have some other crit equi (s3 silk cloth bracers for one, boots of blasting... got no belts of blasting so far, since it didn't drop)...
and is it REALLY worth to try to regem a bit my gear in order to fit in darkmoon faire crusade + icon, evnetually reverting back to attumen's hands//jewel of infinite possibilities//ashyen's gift//other to compensate for the loss of the bloodscryer gem? (i have all those items already, so it's simply a matter of swapping//regemming).. or should i just wait for the next batch of upgrade (vashj chest, some tk drop [we've abandoned tk till we down vashj :X]) and then re-trim my equip (consider that as far as caster items are concerned, i'm third dkp-wise on the current "raiding" roster, and second in a lock-only items perspective)?
just a side note :P refrain from any comment on my sucky wand <_> i've had no luck with magtheridon/aran/black stalk since september (started again at the beginning of september and geared myself completely from green/blue drops with the help of my guildmates:X) and i'm getting so depressed that i'm starting to consider the badge wand :X
Take a look at Leulier's spreadsheet, or use ShadowSeer.

If you get a shot at Vashj's chest, it's great long term item.

As for when it's worth respeccing: it depends. If you had bothered to read up, you'd have found plenty of discussions on the subject.
#775SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Spline
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Take a look at Leulier's spreadsheet, or use ShadowSeer.

If you get a shot at Vashj's chest, it's great long term item.

As for when it's worth respeccing: it depends. If you had bothered to read up, you'd have found plenty of discussions on the subject.
In my guild, Vashj's robes are considered an endgame item and are eligible for guild-provided epic gems.
#776SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
Even though the variance in ISB uptime is bigger than the actual difference you'd get with increasing your crit, you still should be looking at what the *average* icreased by. If the ISB uptime increased by 5%, that's a 1% DPS increase to all your shadow users on average, no matter what the variance is. Wether that is or isn't worth getting those extra 10% crit or not depends how good 10% crit are for your personal dps compared to the stats you lose to gain that crit and how much dps the other shadow users are doing.

The only thing high variance means is that you cannot go to WWS etc and see the difference, just like if the fight is short enough you can't measure your crit chance via WWS (remember people reporting 20% crit on wws when they have 30%? or reporting 40%? doesn't mean their average crit rate isn't 30%...). Generally the best thing to do is to increase your average dps, as it will increase both the minimum reasonable dps you may roll and the maximum.
#777SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Spline
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Even though the variance in ISB uptime is bigger than the actual difference you'd get with increasing your crit, you still should be looking at what the *average* icreased by. If the ISB uptime increased by 5%, that's a 1% DPS increase to all your shadow users on average, no matter what the variance is. Wether that is or isn't worth getting those extra 10% crit or not depends how good 10% crit are for your personal dps compared to the stats you lose to gain that crit and how much dps the other shadow users are doing.

The only thing high variance means is that you cannot go to WWS etc and see the difference, just like if the fight is short enough you can't measure your crit chance via WWS (remember people reporting 20% crit on wws when they have 30%? or reporting 40%? doesn't mean their average crit rate isn't 30%...). Generally the best thing to do is to increase your average dps, as it will increase both the minimum reasonable dps you may roll and the maximum.
10% is a lot of crit. Stacking that up at the expense of spell damage, then going to WWS and not being able to see the difference is disappointing at best.

Last edited by Spline : 12/29/07 at 2:16 PM.
#778SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Evidicus
As a raiding Destruction Warlock, I understand the importance of keeping ISB up as much as possible. However, I think gearing for crit at the expense of damage is a mistake, regardless of a person's good intentions to help their raid. Anytime you do this, you sacrifice guaranteed damage for a chance to crit, and even a 40% chance to crit is still a 60% chance *not* to. I am no mathematician, but I've seen first hand that even with a high crit rate you can string along several non-crits in a row on a regular basis. Each Shadow Bolt is a new spin of the wheel with the exact same crit chance as the last one (unless you have Darkmoon: Wrath I suppose), so even Warlocks with the same crit rate can see variances in how many crits they do in the same fight.

I have socketed for more crit in the past only to see a drop in my personal DPS and no cooresponding boost in raid DPS or ISB up time, so I feel your pain. The end result was a complete resocket back to as much pure damage as possible. Based on my personal raiding experience and observations, I gear for around 25% or so crit (after being hit capped for bosses, of course) and then everything else gets put into damage. This setup has been the most effective for me personally by far, and I still put up my fair share of ISB debuffs.

If you can pick up more crit by getting a spot in a Boomkin or Elemental Shaman group, by all means do so, (free crit is always a great thing), but other than that I wouldn't go overboard stacking it. It just isn't worth it, in my opinion.
#779SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Even though the variance in ISB uptime is bigger than the actual difference you'd get with increasing your crit, you still should be looking at what the *average* icreased by. If the ISB uptime increased by 5%, that's a 1% DPS increase to all your shadow users on average, no matter what the variance is. Wether that is or isn't worth getting those extra 10% crit or not depends how good 10% crit are for your personal dps compared to the stats you lose to gain that crit and how much dps the other shadow users are doing.
10% crit gives 5% increased uptime? That's a whole lot. It's less than 1% per Shadow User, though.

Example:
5 Shadow users, each at 1000 dps (WITHOUT ISB)
ISB uptime: 50%

ISB bonus = 20% * 50% = 10%
so real output = 5x1100 dps, total 5500dps

Now increase one warlock's crit by 10%. His personal damage goes up by roughly 8%: when assuming 20% crit rate upped to 30% the result is roughly (70+2*30) / (80+2*20). ISB uptime goes to 55% according to the model.

our critlock goes to 1080dps (without ISB)
the others remain at 1000 dps (without ISB)

ISB bonus = 20% * 55% = 11%
critlock goes to 1198dps
others go to 1110 dps (0.9% increase)
real output = 5638dps

Gain = 138dps raidwide or 12.6% of personal warlock dps.

For comparison: statwise 10crit = 221 crit rating. 221 regular spellpower would result in approximately 11% gain.


As a rule of thumb, I'd equate crit rating with spellpower as destro.
#780SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Evidicus
Originally Posted by Amandil View Post
I was wondering could someone clear a few things up for me. In a 0/21/40 spec, how does Corruption and Immolate fit in?
What many people will tell you is that Immolate and Corruption have little to no place in a Destruction build. As far as pure DPS theory goes, this is correct. Your hands on experience may vary slightly.

For example, there are several encounters where threat is a huge concern. If I am watching my Omen meter like a hawk (which I normally do given this build's tendency for threat spikes), then I can determine those times I need to Soul Shatter or "throttle back" a bit. One way I continue to DPS while still lowering my threat gen is to cast an Immolate or Corruption (provided the debuff slots are available, of course). That 2 second Corruption cast will lower my damage per second, but it beats pulling aggro, blowing a Soul Shatter too early, or just standing around with my thumb up my butt doing zero damage and just waiting to cast another Shadow Bolt.

Sometimes, regardless of how skilled your tanks are, something goes wrong. The boss could get a string of parries and hit like a truck, forcing your tank to worry more about mitigation abilities than threat gen abilities for a short while. The tank could dodge a lot of the incoming attacks and generate less rage than normal. These are also scenarios where pumping in 8k Shadow Bolt crits right away may not be the best idea.

Another example could be a fight that involves a lot of movement, like Archimonde. There have been several times where I've put up Immolate and Corruption prior to running away from Doomfire, just because some DPS is better than zero DPS.

Personally, while I greatly appreciate all the theorycrafting and spreadsheets I find here and on similar forums, the truth is that they are all tailored towards the best case scenario. The problem with taking it all too literally is that raiding doesn't happen in a bubble where random variables and unexpected situations never happen. The data and opinions in this thread are all extremely valuable guidelines, but that is all they are -- guidelines. What I would advise, Amandil, is take everything with a grain of salt and just be ready to think on your feet. After all, if anyone had all the answers out there, these threads wouldn't need to be as long as they are.
#781SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0DaveA50
Originally Posted by Evidicus View Post
What many people will tell you is that Immolate and Corruption have little to no place in a Destruction build. As far as pure DPS theory goes, this is correct. Your hands on experience may vary slightly.

For example, there are several encounters where threat is a huge concern. If I am watching my Omen meter like a hawk (which I normally do given this build's tendency for threat spikes), then I can determine those times I need to Soul Shatter or "throttle back" a bit. One way I continue to DPS while still lowering my threat gen is to cast an Immolate or Corruption (provided the debuff slots are available, of course). That 2 second Corruption cast will lower my damage per second, but it beats pulling aggro, blowing a Soul Shatter too early, or just standing around with my thumb up my butt doing zero damage and just waiting to cast another Shadow Bolt.

Sometimes, regardless of how skilled your tanks are, something goes wrong. The boss could get a string of parries and hit like a truck, forcing your tank to worry more about mitigation abilities than threat gen abilities for a short while. The tank could dodge a lot of the incoming attacks and generate less rage than normal. These are also scenarios where pumping in 8k Shadow Bolt crits right away may not be the best idea.

Another example could be a fight that involves a lot of movement, like Archimonde. There have been several times where I've put up Immolate and Corruption prior to running away from Doomfire, just because some DPS is better than zero DPS.

Personally, while I greatly appreciate all the theorycrafting and spreadsheets I find here and on similar forums, the truth is that they are all tailored towards the best case scenario. The problem with taking it all too literally is that raiding doesn't happen in a bubble where random variables and unexpected situations never happen. The data and opinions in this thread are all extremely valuable guidelines, but that is all they are -- guidelines. What I would advise, Amandil, is take everything with a grain of salt and just be ready to think on your feet. After all, if anyone had all the answers out there, these threads wouldn't need to be as long as they are.
If you need to watch threat, I don't understand why you would want to use corruption. With a 0/21/40 build, you'd have Destructive reach for -10% threat from destruction spells, but no improved drain soul for -10% threat from affliction spells. However, for fights like archimonde where you know there will be a time when you can't dps, such as 5 seconds before the next fear, using both corruption and immolate would allow for some dps while incapacitated.
#782SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Spline
Originally Posted by Evidicus View Post
One way I continue to DPS while still lowering my threat gen is to cast an Immolate or Corruption (provided the debuff slots are available, of course). That 2 second Corruption cast will lower my damage per second, but it beats pulling aggro, blowing a Soul Shatter too early, or just standing around with my thumb up my butt doing zero damage and just waiting to cast another Shadow Bolt.
For a 0/21/40 build with Destructive Reach, Corruption produces more threat per point of damage than Shadow Bolt or Immolate. You shouldn't ever cast Corruption if you're worried about threat. Get that thumb under there.
#783SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Evidicus
It's not spike threat though, so my thinking was that it's easier to manage and easier to watch myself "coast" to a safe area on the threat meter so I can ramp up another Shadow Bolt. I'll try the thumb theory though, just to see.
#784SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krazen
Originally Posted by Evidicus View Post
As a raiding Destruction Warlock, I understand the importance of keeping ISB up as much as possible. However, I think gearing for crit at the expense of damage is a mistake, regardless of a person's good intentions to help their raid. Anytime you do this, you sacrifice guaranteed damage for a chance to crit, and even a 40% chance to crit is still a 60% chance *not* to. I am no mathematician, but I've seen first hand that even with a high crit rate you can string along several non-crits in a row on a regular basis. Each Shadow Bolt is a new spin of the wheel with the exact same crit chance as the last one (unless you have Darkmoon: Wrath I suppose), so even Warlocks with the same crit rate can see variances in how many crits they do in the same fight.

I have socketed for more crit in the past only to see a drop in my personal DPS and no cooresponding boost in raid DPS or ISB up time, so I feel your pain. The end result was a complete resocket back to as much pure damage as possible. Based on my personal raiding experience and observations, I gear for around 25% or so crit (after being hit capped for bosses, of course) and then everything else gets put into damage. This setup has been the most effective for me personally by far, and I still put up my fair share of ISB debuffs.

If you can pick up more crit by getting a spot in a Boomkin or Elemental Shaman group, by all means do so, (free crit is always a great thing), but other than that I wouldn't go overboard stacking it. It just isn't worth it, in my opinion.
I don't think gearing for crit is that much of a concern, because in any item slot there are only a handful of pieces with set discrete values for each slot to compare with each other (ie Vestments/Rhonin/Malefic/Corruptor for chestpiece).

I think the bigger question is whether or not to Spinel a given piece, given your guild's constraints on gems, and whether to pursue a socket bonus or not. For instance, if Spinels are limited, is it really fair to grab 2 for your Belt of Blasting?
#785SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
10% crit gives 5% increased uptime? That's a whole lot. It's less than 1% per Shadow User, though.

(...)

Gain = 138dps raidwide or 12.6% of personal warlock dps.

For comparison: statwise 10crit = 221 crit rating. 221 regular spellpower would result in approximately 11% gain.


As a rule of thumb, I'd equate crit rating with spellpower as destro.
Now the real question is if 10% crit, in fact, gives 5% increased uptime in a normal raid as stated above?
#786SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Spline View Post
For a 0/21/40 build with Destructive Reach, Corruption produces more threat per point of damage than Shadow Bolt or Immolate. You shouldn't ever cast Corruption if you're worried about threat. Get that thumb under there.
Even so, all spells cast before you have to Soulshatter are at 50% threat. I can see the reasoning behind the theory "if my next bolts crits, I might draw aggro. I'll cast Corruption/Immolate for no immediate threat, then go back to bolting. If both are up, I'm best off using Soulshatter". I prefer using Life Tap/Immolate over Corruption in that scenario myself, since it has no range or threat issues.

Either way, one late Soulshatter usually is enough for me. Maybe if my gear improves I'll get into this scenario more often.

I think it is quite obvious. Whatever spell is highest on the spreadsheet, common sense should prevail. If stuff doesn't live long enough, don't use dots. If threat is an immediate issue, don't use potential 8k Shadowbolts. If you need to cast something fast so you can move early, go for Immolate.

Last edited by Arelenda : 12/29/07 at 7:00 PM.
#787SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
Rarely would you actually be able to tell that you have 1.5s to cast but 2.5s will take too long. Even bossmods timers don't seem to be accurate to the level of <1s.

When corruption is less DPS than shadowbolt, casting it is just silly. Even if you have to move you'd still be doing more dps spending that time on shadowbolt, and also get less threat per dmg done. If threat is an issue no reason to cast a spell that's less threat efficient. Also some would claim that with certain spells they can "ride the tank's threat" closer than with others, but in reality it really doesn't matter if you give the tank a 2k or 4k threat buffer, as in the long run it'll be a negligible amount of dmg relative to the total dmg you did in the fight. If threat is an issue you need to slow your dps, and while there are many ways to lower your dps and it really doesn't matter how you do it, just don't use abilities that actually generate more threat per point of damage done...
#788SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kobal
Originally Posted by DaveA50 View Post
However, for fights like archimonde where you know there will be a time when you can't dps, such as 5 seconds before the next fear, using both corruption and immolate would allow for some dps while incapacitated.
This way of thinking is a common fallacy.

The main reason that Corruption and Immolate are not used in a "regular" DPS rotation for a 0/21/40 build is that their damage per cast time is lower than that of shadow bolt.

However if their damage per cast time is lower, then it also makes no sense to cast them right before running. The better strategy would be to cast some shadow bolts instead. Yes, if you cast some SBs in those 5 seconds, you will do no damage while running, but the additional damage you did before being on the run more than compensates for this.
#789SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PSGarak
Has anybody done any closed-form solution modeling for [Darkmoon Card: Wrath]? I know there have been X-thousand-cast simulations at various crit levels, but what I'm really interested in is an explicit formula for how it affects ISB. It increases uptime more than the same amount of crit because it redistributes the crits favorably. I think it's important to know, and I would just like some warning if I'm about to reinvent the wheel before I go off and model it on my own.
#790SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krazen
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
Has anybody done any closed-form solution modeling for [Darkmoon Card: Wrath]? I know there have been X-thousand-cast simulations at various crit levels, but what I'm really interested in is an explicit formula for how it affects ISB. It increases uptime more than the same amount of crit because it redistributes the crits favorably. I think it's important to know, and I would just like some warning if I'm about to reinvent the wheel before I go off and model it on my own.
What would the point be? Even under the best analysis, there's no way the trinket compares to Icon/Crusade/Hexhead/Skull. Plus the fact that it scales negatively with +crit on better gear...
#791SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
GokieKS
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
I think the bigger question is whether or not to Spinel a given piece, given your guild's constraints on gems, and whether to pursue a socket bonus or not. For instance, if Spinels are limited, is it really fair to grab 2 for your Belt of Blasting?
This is precisely the situation I faced. Our guild's supply of Crimson Spinels were always short, to the point where people have to be on a waiting list, so I ended up using [Potent Pyrestone] and [Glowing Shadowsong Amethyst] on any piece that had a good socket bonus, with care to only have two of the Purple gems (for the CSD meta requirement). Basically I went with socket bonus colors on everything except the T6 chest, where the difference between 3 [Runed Crimson Spinel] and 2 Yellow/1 Blue + Socket Bonus would've been too great. It was also a consideration I had when I decided to pick up the T6 pants (which is really a pretty mediocre piece compared to T5 and the other two T6 level cloth DPS legs) instead of waiting on [Leggings of Channeled Elements] - the Kaz'rogal pants would need 3 +12s to shine at its best, and we simply didn't have enough of those to go around and I don't even know when I would've gotten them.

And I really don't consider Belt of Blasting to be good enough of an item to warrant re-gemming for when you gain access to the BT/MH gems - there's a ton of +hit available from all the rest of the T6 level pieces, so all it really is is just a decent stat-less belt - both the belts from Anetheron and Supremus are upgrades, and neither boss is particularly hard. So barring some really bad luck with drops, both are very viable options.

Last edited by GokieKS : 12/30/07 at 2:13 AM.
#792SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Shuko
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
Has anybody done any closed-form solution modeling for [Darkmoon Card: Wrath]? I know there have been X-thousand-cast simulations at various crit levels, but what I'm really interested in is an explicit formula for how it affects ISB. It increases uptime more than the same amount of crit because it redistributes the crits favorably. I think it's important to know, and I would just like some warning if I'm about to reinvent the wheel before I go off and model it on my own.

Darkmoon Card: Wrath - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
#793SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Shuko
Originally Posted by GokieKS View Post
And I really don't consider Belt of Blasting to be good enough of an item to warrant re-gemming for when you gain access to the BT/MH gems - there's a ton of +hit available from all the rest of the T6 level pieces, so all it really is is just a decent stat-less belt - both the belts from Anetheron and Supremus are upgrades, and neither boss is particularly hard. So barring some really bad luck with drops, both are very viable options.
I have to disagree with that. Blasting is actually the best/on par with Noose. Both have about 1.4% crit, so its 5dmg vs 23hit. With sta from T6, the stats are a nonfactors. With that hit you can use a different wand or cloak for example for more crit/dmg. Last time i checked, Supremus belt didnt even come close to those two, because missing 2 sockets just hurts too much.
#794SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Xelo
As a affliction lock.. Is it even worth casting Immolate unless scorch debuffs are up etc.? Was just curious I've seen so many people say different opinions. I took it out recently on bosses, unless I'm moving around a bunch or on trash.

Thanks.
#795SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Xelo View Post
As a affliction lock.. Is it even worth casting Immolate unless scorch debuffs are up etc.? Was just curious I've seen so many people say different opinions. I took it out recently on bosses, unless I'm moving around a bunch or on trash.

Thanks.
I suggest you read the compendium. It has cookies. Also, a section called "Immolate vs Shadow Bolt".
#796SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Afflictor
has anyone worked on what a best in slot set would be with a 13% hit cap? (elemental shaman)
#797SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 Eph
Originally Posted by Afflictor View Post
has anyone worked on what a best in slot set would be with a 13% hit cap? (elemental shaman)
Posted a little ways back, [Warlock] PVE Raiding Compendium. Posts before and after discuss other gear sets as well.
#798SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Pruka
Edit: Found the thread that answered my question.

Last edited by Pruka : 01/02/08 at 1:03 PM.
#799SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0KuruQan
OK,can somebody answer me,why the OP thinks CoA is better than CoD?CoA has 120% spell coefficient,while CoD has 200%.CoD is 70DPS,while CoA is 56.5DPS+you lose a gcd for reapplying CoA.I dislike all the locks,who use CoA in raids,so have I been wrong all this time?Is there something Im missing?
#800SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Krazen
Originally Posted by GokieKS View Post
This is precisely the situation I faced. Our guild's supply of Crimson Spinels were always short, to the point where people have to be on a waiting list, so I ended up using [Potent Pyrestone] and [Glowing Shadowsong Amethyst] on any piece that had a good socket bonus, with care to only have two of the Purple gems (for the CSD meta requirement). Basically I went with socket bonus colors on everything except the T6 chest, where the difference between 3 [Runed Crimson Spinel] and 2 Yellow/1 Blue + Socket Bonus would've been too great. It was also a consideration I had when I decided to pick up the T6 pants (which is really a pretty mediocre piece compared to T5 and the other two T6 level cloth DPS legs) instead of waiting on [Leggings of Channeled Elements] - the Kaz'rogal pants would need 3 +12s to shine at its best, and we simply didn't have enough of those to go around and I don't even know when I would've gotten them.
Well, a pyrestone is ~11 spellpower equivalent for personal dps, so you lose more by putting them in 2 socket items rather than 3.

For example, on any YYB item (both legs, t6 robe, vashj robe): A choice of 36 spellpower from Spinels, or 11+11+6+5 = 33 spellpower from the alternative. Each spinel is a 1 spellpower gain.

Whereas on any YB item(belt of blasting, t6 shoulder): A choice of 24 spellpower from Spinels, or 11+6+4 = 21 spellpower from the alternative. Each spinel is a 1.5 spellpower gain.

On a single socket Y item (t6 gloves), the obvious gain is 1 spellpower, and on a single socket blue (carved wand), the gain is 4 spellpower.

I already socketed my slippers of the seacaller for the bonus, but in hindsight I kind of wish I didn't. But I think the priority should be those 2 socket YB's first, once metagem requirements are changed on the CSD.

Last edited by Krazen : 01/02/08 at 5:44 PM.
#801SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0GokieKS
Originally Posted by Shuko View Post
I have to disagree with that. Blasting is actually the best/on par with Noose. Both have about 1.4% crit, so its 5dmg vs 23hit. With sta from T6, the stats are a nonfactors. With that hit you can use a different wand or cloak for example for more crit/dmg. Last time i checked, Supremus belt didnt even come close to those two, because missing 2 sockets just hurts too much.
The rest of T6 offers both stamina and spell hit in large quantities. But the difference is that there's never a point where extra stamina is worthless, while the same isn't true for spell hit. As such, in any situation where the choice is between hit and stamina/int, the latter is always preferable (as long as you stay near/above the spell hit cap).

You're right on the Supremus belt though, I was thinking for some reason that it had sockets. It doesn't and as such is pretty much worthless, as the fact that all the ones which have dropped for us has been DEed will attest.

Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
Well, a pyrestone is ~11 spellpower equivalent for personal dps
The rest of your argument is based on this assertion, but it's not one that I agree with. In my gear/spec at least, 1 crit rating is not even close to being equivalent to 1 damage - 0.64 based on unbuffed stats according to v1.18 of the Leulier/Piztai spreadsheet. Using 0.65 as a rounded easy number, a Pyrestone is only worth 9.25 spell damage, and in turns means a YYB+5 setup will only yield 29.5 spell damage equivalent, 6.5 short of using Crimson Spinels. On the other hand, a YB+4 setup yields 19.25 spell damage, 4.75 short of using Crimson Spinels.
#802SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krazen
Originally Posted by GokieKS View Post
The rest of your argument is based on this assertion, but it's not one that I agree with. In my gear/spec at least, 1 crit rating is not even close to being equivalent to 1 damage - 0.64 based on unbuffed stats according to v1.18 of the Leulier/Piztai spreadsheet. Using 0.65 as a rounded easy number, a Pyrestone is only worth 9.25 spell damage, and in turns means a YYB+5 setup will only yield 29.5 spell damage equivalent, 6.5 short of using Crimson Spinels. On the other hand, a YB+4 setup yields 19.25 spell damage, 4.75 short of using Crimson Spinels.
I can't view your armory so I'll accept your numbers. But consider the following:

1. I'm not sure why you are putting in unbuffed numbers, when the 200-300 spellpower added by buffs boosts the relative value of crit.
2. Increased ISB uptime boosts the relative value of crit to the raid, which leulier doesn't account for. There's been a bunch of discussion in this thread as to how much...I'll just say it is some positive value.
3. Even by your calculations, you have to divide the benefit by the number of spinels (after all, you could swap gemming 2 YYB items for 3 YB items). A YYB gets 2.17 dmg/spinel by your numbers, while a YB gets 2.375 dmg/spinel.

Obviously the metagem requirement are a problem for now, but that will be changed.
#803SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Hausnfranz
hit or spell dmg

I just recently got my Frozen shadoweave and battlecast pieces together for my lock. I would like some advice about proper gearing in regards to hit VS spell damage at low level raiding and farming levels.

I am farming quite a bit for gold (epic mount) and season one gear in BG. I am not going to gem anything for pvp until I actually get the season one gear, so I would disregard that area. I will be doing Heroics in order to get into Karazhan, and expect to be doing the near raid bosses after that.

I would like to know if spell dmg is greater then hit in this case because I will be doing little boss fighting, save for those I find in Heroics, Kharazan, and beyond. Is it reasonable to gem for all spell damage now, and then re-gem when I am doing more boss encounters (where would I draw the line)? Or should I get a bit of hit (certainly the cap is not needed, maybe just 5/5 supression?) and then gem the rest for spell damage?
#804SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Johnneke
Originally Posted by Hausnfranz View Post
I just recently got my Frozen shadoweave and battlecast pieces together for my lock. I would like some advice about proper gearing in regards to hit VS spell damage at low level raiding and farming levels.

I am farming quite a bit for gold (epic mount) and season one gear in BG. I am not going to gem anything for pvp until I actually get the season one gear, so I would disregard that area. I will be doing Heroics in order to get into Karazhan, and expect to be doing the near raid bosses after that.

I would like to know if spell dmg is greater then hit in this case because I will be doing little boss fighting, save for those I find in Heroics, Kharazan, and beyond. Is it reasonable to gem for all spell damage now, and then re-gem when I am doing more boss encounters (where would I draw the line)? Or should I get a bit of hit (certainly the cap is not needed, maybe just 5/5 supression?) and then gem the rest for spell damage?
As for early raiding gear I'd try to get at least 76 spell hit and spec 41/0/19 or one of the likes. With 5/5 Suppression some spreadsheets show then 1 spell dmg will give you a greater dps increase then 1 spell hit after you acquired 76 spell hit to get your affliction tree hit capped. Obviously when you start recieving better gear I would aim for more spell hit none the less but at entry level affliction locks hit isnt that big a issue. Also I made the mistake myself to get the Battlecast set when I started out raiding early tbc. However Spellstrike is ALOT better. You will loose some stamina which you will not really need till venturing in in BT/MH, even alot of early BT/MH raiders still wear Spellstrike
#805SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by KuruQan View Post
OK,can somebody answer me,why the OP thinks CoA is better than CoD?CoA has 120% spell coefficient,while CoD has 200%.CoD is 70DPS,while CoA is 56.5DPS+you lose a gcd for reapplying CoA.I dislike all the locks,who use CoA in raids,so have I been wrong all this time?Is there something Im missing?
CoA gets 120% of spellpower per cast, but you cast it 2.5 times per CoD. CoD isn't affected by Shadow Mastery. Therefore, what is better depends on your spec and spellpower.

Usually you go for CoS / CoE / CoR and only then can you consider personal dps curses.

CoA spam still wins on offtanked trash, though.
#806SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0KuruQan
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
CoA gets 120% of spellpower per cast, but you cast it 2.5 times per CoD. CoD isn't affected by Shadow Mastery. Therefore, what is better depends on your spec and spellpower.

Usually you go for CoS / CoE / CoR and only then can you consider personal dps curses.

CoA spam still wins on offtanked trash, though.
Thanks,but I know pretty well what curses to go for.What I wanted to say is that your statement,CoA>CoD if you have more than 1250 spelldmg,is flawed.Havent really done the mats,always thought it was pretty obvious.Well i have done it now(Ampd Curse incl) :P. In 10 min long fight(1500 shadowdmg) the dmg of CoD is 82800-138DPS.CoA is 96592.5-160DPS.The difference is ~13k dmg for 10 min.Now you have used (25-10)*1.5=22.5 sec more for casting CoA.Turn this into SBs and CoD turns better in the end(maybe on shorter fights CoA is better thou).Also most of the locks who are in bt/hyjal are destro,so for them CoD is definitely better.
p.s.Why SM not affecting CoD hasnt been fixed?This is a bug imo.
#807SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0GokieKS
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
I can't view your armory so I'll accept your numbers. But consider the following:

1. I'm not sure why you are putting in unbuffed numbers, when the 200-300 spellpower added by buffs boosts the relative value of crit.
2. Increased ISB uptime boosts the relative value of crit to the raid, which leulier doesn't account for. There's been a bunch of discussion in this thread as to how much...I'll just say it is some positive value.
3. Even by your calculations, you have to divide the benefit by the number of spinels (after all, you could swap gemming 2 YYB items for 3 YB items). A YYB gets 2.17 dmg/spinel by your numbers, while a YB gets 2.375 dmg/spinel.

Obviously the metagem requirement are a problem for now, but that will be changed.
My stats for boss fights, including Fel Armor, is 1340 +shadow, 15.62% +spell hit (I usually try to get as close to 16% as possible w/o going too much over, and in my current gear I can't hit 16% w/o going over by quite a bit), 29.64% crit (including Devastation). I'd like to know, however, how you're gaining anywhere close to 300 +damage from raid buffs. If I'm going using consumables on a fight, I would gain 70 from Flask (because I'm lazy/cheap and prefer using Shattrath Flasks), 42 from Superior Wizard Oil (because I'm lazy/cheap and don't have any Brilliant Wizard Oil), 23 from food, and roughly 23 from Improved Divine Spirit after MotW/BoK (and I can't actually always count on Imp DS), for a total of another 158 +damage, bringing my total to 1498. At that level, 1 crit rating is worth 0.75 spell damage. A little better, sure, but still not enough to bring it to parity with pure +damage.

Regarding #2, I was under the impression that it does model, or at least attempt to, the effect of ISB. It's been a long time since I've last really looked into it though, but it does have a section devoted to settings for ISB calculations, so I'm taking it at face value that it does take it into account.

As for #3, I'm not completely sure what you're suggesting. Because the main problem here is that I want to use as few Crimson Spinels as possible while minimizing the loss of DPS by using Pyrestones and Shadowsong Amethysts instead. And as there are a lot more YB+X socketed items than YYB+X socketed items (the only one of the latter I have is the Malefic Robe), I don't really see what my alternative is short of just not using Runed Crimson Spinels altogether - I just have the 3 in the Robe, while all other items use Potent Pyrestones and/or Glowing Shadowsong Amethysts.

And yes, I'm very glad the CSD gem requirements is getting changed. I was very annoyed that I had to replace the 6 damage/6 stamina blue gem (reward from Nightbane quest) in my Engineering goggles (MB+5 sockets) with a Runed Living Ruby in order to keep the CSD active after I had a temporary brain lapse and put another blue gem in my T6 shoulders. Nothing like spending 50g to lose 6 stamina and 2 damage because of a stupid meta requirement.
#808SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krazen
Originally Posted by GokieKS View Post
My stats for boss fights, including Fel Armor, is 1340 +shadow, 15.62% +spell hit (I usually try to get as close to 16% as possible w/o going too much over, and in my current gear I can't hit 16% w/o going over by quite a bit), 29.64% crit (including Devastation). I'd like to know, however, how you're gaining anywhere close to 300 +damage from raid buffs. If I'm going using consumables on a fight, I would gain 70 from Flask (because I'm lazy/cheap and prefer using Shattrath Flasks), 42 from Superior Wizard Oil (because I'm lazy/cheap and don't have any Brilliant Wizard Oil), 23 from food, and roughly 23 from Improved Divine Spirit after MotW/BoK (and I can't actually always count on Imp DS), for a total of another 158 +damage, bringing my total to 1498. At that level, 1 crit rating is worth 0.75 spell damage. A little better, sure, but still not enough to bring it to parity with pure +damage.

Regarding #2, I was under the impression that it does model, or at least attempt to, the effect of ISB. It's been a long time since I've last really looked into it though, but it does have a section devoted to settings for ISB calculations, so I'm taking it at face value that it does take it into account.

As for #3, I'm not completely sure what you're suggesting. Because the main problem here is that I want to use as few Crimson Spinels as possible while minimizing the loss of DPS by using Pyrestones and Shadowsong Amethysts instead. And as there are a lot more YB+X socketed items than YYB+X socketed items (the only one of the latter I have is the Malefic Robe), I don't really see what my alternative is short of just not using Runed Crimson Spinels altogether - I just have the 3 in the Robe, while all other items use Potent Pyrestones and/or Glowing Shadowsong Amethysts.

And yes, I'm very glad the CSD gem requirements is getting changed. I was very annoyed that I had to replace the 6 damage/6 stamina blue gem (reward from Nightbane quest) in my Engineering goggles (MB+5 sockets) with a Runed Living Ruby in order to keep the CSD active after I had a temporary brain lapse and put another blue gem in my T6 shoulders. Nothing like spending 50g to lose 6 stamina and 2 damage because of a stupid meta requirement.
Wrath of air totem adds another 101 spell damage on top of the 158 you mentioned. I wasn't sure whether 'unbuffed' for you included Fel Armor or not.

The way I see it, the most common t6 geared player has 2 YYB items (Legs and Robe). All I'm saying is that first items to Spinel should be [Mantle of the Malefic] and [Slippers of the Seacaller] for the best value per gem. Going for the socket bonus on [Leggings of Channeled Elements] is no worse IMO than doing it on the above 2 items, because you 'save' 3 gems instead of 2.

The problem is that blue sockets are useless, and YYB items compensate with a higher socket bonus than YB items do.
#809SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0xruin
Hey, guys. I had a question about gear/spec and after reading a lot in this thread I still wanted to ask a question. How would a 40 point destruction perform with imp corruption, imp life tap, nightfall, grim reach and empowered corruption IF I had 18% crit without talents/buffs, 1050 shadow damage with just fel armor (unbuffed otherwise), ~180+ spell hit and 4/5 Tier 5 (4-piece bonus)?

I started raiding as 41/0/20 and it proved to be a great spec for a while and I usually found myself at the top of the DPS charts or very close to it. Until recently. Destruction locks and hunters really surpass me now to the point where I'm realizing that my build is not keeping up anymore. I find myself 4th, 5th or even 6th behind our two destruction warlocks, two BM hunters and occasionally a fire mage.

I've been collecting gear to try a destruction build and I knew 0/21/40 was the cookie cutter one. After putting together my set I wanted to see what other viable builds were out there. I saw some debate on the 21/0/40 spec and how it was deemed to not be a min/max build and something that would decrease overall DPS by 15% due to lack of DS.

I guess my final question is the 4-piece T5 bonus with imp and emp corruption, along with nightfall, an alternative to 0/21/40 for the time being? Will probably pick up DS when T6 starts droppping and my 4-piece T5 bonus is broken. Any advice at all would be greatly, greatly appreciated - thanks!!
#810SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
While I hadn't done the math myself, I'm pretty sure I've seen it mentioned already on these forums that 21/0/40 just doesn't do the same dps 0/21/40 does, although it's not a terrible spec at all there's simply no reason to use it as it does less dps for more debuff slots and actually requires more skill to play on top of it - and while i like a spec requiring skill I don't like a spec that after requiring skill still doesn't perform as well.
#811SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Idk
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
While I hadn't done the math myself, I'm pretty sure I've seen it mentioned already on these forums that 21/0/40 just doesn't do the same dps 0/21/40 does, although it's not a terrible spec at all there's simply no reason to use it as it does less dps for more debuff slots and actually requires more skill to play on top of it - and while i like a spec requiring skill I don't like a spec that after requiring skill still doesn't perform as well.
I've found the damage to be right about even with 41/0/15 + x on both the leulier spreadsheet as well as my own damage simulator at my current gear level (1350 shadow, 25ish crit, 16% hit, 4.5ish haste).

It's just a different toolset. Over destruction you gain blood pact, self-sufficiency with siphon life, and a little bit of potential damage on the move with insta SL and Co. You lose health from DE, extra healing from DA, and the damage hit from not having DS. You contribute less to ISB uptime than a destro lock but more than a UA lock. You get less out of crit and haste than a destro lock but more than UA gets.

Depending on what you're working on it can be a decent spec.. admittedly it pairs very well with the 4-piece T4 and the CSD meta in the helm... add on the fact that you can boost the damage of immolate quite a bit between 4-T4, 4/5 imp immo, and 5/5 emberstorm (at the cost of cataclysm and nether protection). But don't delude yourself, the damage will not outpace 0/21/40.

I'll see what I can do about producing some numbers to compare the specs at your gear level.
#812SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Idk
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
actually requires more skill to play on top of it - and while i like a spec requiring skill I don't like a spec that after requiring skill still doesn't perform as well.
I should add that I really don't believe this spec requires much more skill. You have two instant cast dots to maintain. You simply recast them after they expire, probably at the end of the shadowbolt that's being cast when the dot expires. With a spec like this, even a moderate amount of downtime between dots doesn't have a huge impact on overall dps because the difference in dpct of shadowbolt and the dots isn't nearly as wide as the dpct difference for UA.

I just can't believe that maintaining two instant cast dots requires any more skill than chain casting shadowbolts.
#813SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Arelenda
Originally Posted by KuruQan View Post
Thanks,but I know pretty well what curses to go for.What I wanted to say is that your statement,CoA>CoD if you have more than 1250 spelldmg,is flawed.Havent really done the mats,always thought it was pretty obvious.Well i have done it now(Ampd Curse incl) :P. In 10 min long fight(1500 shadowdmg) the dmg of CoD is 82800-138DPS.CoA is 96592.5-160DPS.The difference is ~13k dmg for 10 min.Now you have used (25-10)*1.5=22.5 sec more for casting CoA.Turn this into SBs and CoD turns better in the end(maybe on shorter fights CoA is better thou).Also most of the locks who are in bt/hyjal are destro,so for them CoD is definitely better.
p.s.Why SM not affecting CoD hasnt been fixed?This is a bug imo.
Compendium mentions CoA being better than unamped CoD. If you have amp, you probably want to amp CoD and use CoA in between.

Compendium also mentions that CoD isn't affected and that we don't know why.

Compendium also mentions that it's only for affliction locks.

Please read the compendium before stating that it is wrong, please.

Last edited by Arelenda : 01/03/08 at 3:31 PM.
#814SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0xruin
Ok, well I'm just looking for advice on how to spec for destruction without doing 0/21/40 pretty much. I'd like to have more versatility, but still be as, or more, effective in terms of DPS as my UA build. Is it possible to eclipse UA, but just be short of the 0/21/40 build?
#815SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Idk
Originally Posted by xruin View Post
Ok, well I'm just looking for advice on how to spec for destruction without doing 0/21/40 pretty much. I'd like to have more versatility, but still be as, or more, effective in terms of DPS as my UA build. Is it possible to eclipse UA, but just be short of the 0/21/40 build?
I'd say DT/Ruin is your best choice (0/40/21) assuming you want something that's close to 0/21/40 but that isn't the cookie cutter destro build. Felguard (either 7/41/10+x or 0/41/18+x) is also a good option. Both require much more attention and are much more sensitive to the encounter. On top of that, I'm not sure how much more utility you get out of those builds over a destro build.

Last edited by Idk : 01/03/08 at 3:45 PM.
#816SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Idk
Originally Posted by xruin View Post
Ok, well I'm just looking for advice on how to spec for destruction without doing 0/21/40 pretty much. I'd like to have more versatility, but still be as, or more, effective in terms of DPS as my UA build. Is it possible to eclipse UA, but just be short of the 0/21/40 build?
I took your stat numbers (1050 damage, 18% unbuffed crit, 180 hit rating) and made a few other raid assumptions (no shadowpriest in your group, 4-piece T4, CSD meta, you providing CoS, no other warlocks in the raid, 0% haste, no CoE, no imp scorch, .1s lag, no movement).

For about 150 combat simulations per spec with my simulator, I'm getting the following numbers:

0/21/40 no immolate, no corruption: 1152
43/0/18 w/ immolate: 1125
21/0/40 w/ immolate: 1116
43/0/18 no immolate: 1104
21/0/40 no immolate: 1082

Which is to say.. at your gear level nothing beats shadow destro for raw damage. It's probably even more damage with adding the untalented corruption assuming you have the 4-piece T4. If you want utility, run a UA spec that includes immolate. 21/0/40 is close to the damage of UA but I can't imagine why you'd run it over UA.. you don't provide shadow's embrace for the raid and you don't provide malediction.

Of course, you can figure out all of this on your own with the warlock spreadsheet linked in the OP.
#817SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by xruin View Post
Ok, well I'm just looking for advice on how to spec for destruction without doing 0/21/40 pretty much. I'd like to have more versatility, but still be as, or more, effective in terms of DPS as my UA build. Is it possible to eclipse UA, but just be short of the 0/21/40 build?
Variations are already mentioned. Basically those 21 points in demo are just for 15% extra shadow damage (and 30 spellpower). There are several tradeoffs you can make that will get you respectable dps with other perks. If you find something original that is not mentioned, list it here and it'll be discussed and added.
#818SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0xruin
Are you talking about the spreadsheet at WoW Warlock DPS Spreadsheet by Leulier ? I didn't notice how it took Nightfall into account. Need to look at it more closely.
#819SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PSGarak
If corruption is in your cast cycle and nightfall is selected, it reduces the average casting time of your shadowbolt. Last I saw it didn't account for nightfall with drain life--it's difficult because shadowbolt isn't your filler at that point.

It turns out nightfall isn't really that great of a sustained DPS talent because it doesn't proc very often and only saves you 1s of cast time (less, with haste). It's an awesome solo and PvP talent because it redistributes the short-term damage by 2.5s in addition to the long-term effect, it increases mobility, and it's burst damage that isn't affected by resilience, but as far as raiding goes it's more like the best filler at that point than a must-have talent.

The 21/0/40 spec as a whole just doesn't gain much from the affliction tree. The first 21 points into it are more for soloing and other non-raid functions, and it's not until points 26-38 and 41 that there's enough damage bonuses going on to make it a workhorse raid tree.

@idk: while I agree that managing two DoTs isn't particularly skill-intensive, I do think that the modicum of skill (or "skill" if you prefer) it requires is somewhat more than that of just mashing shadowbolts.
#820SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0GokieKS
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
Wrath of air totem adds another 101 spell damage on top of the 158 you mentioned. I wasn't sure whether 'unbuffed' for you included Fel Armor or not.

The way I see it, the most common t6 geared player has 2 YYB items (Legs and Robe). All I'm saying is that first items to Spinel should be [Mantle of the Malefic] and [Slippers of the Seacaller] for the best value per gem. Going for the socket bonus on [Leggings of Channeled Elements] is no worse IMO than doing it on the above 2 items, because you 'save' 3 gems instead of 2.

The problem is that blue sockets are useless, and YYB items compensate with a higher socket bonus than YB items do.
Regarding WoA, we don't have enough Shaman to give the DPS casters group(s) one, so I really never get it. We do run probably the most melee heavy raid in the world though. =/

And maybe it's just us, but the pants off Kaz'rogal has been exceedingly rare. We've had something like 10 [Leggings of the Forgotten Conqueror] drop, compared to 2 [Leggings of Channeled Elements].

If you put Crimson Spinels in the shoulders/boots and Pyrestones/Shadowsong Amethyst in the Kaz pants, you end up with 10 crit rating, 71 damage (12*4+6*3+5), and 7 stamina at a cost of 4 Crimson Spinels, whereas if you put Crimson Spinels in the Kaz pants and Pyrestones/Shadowsong Amethysts in the shoulders/boots you get 10 crit rating, 68 damage (12*3+6*4+4*2), and 14 stamina at a cost of 3 Crimson Spinels. To me, it's pretty clear that 3 damage for 7 stamina is a trade off I'm willing to make for the sake of saving a Crimson Spinel.
#821SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gumibear
Have you considered just doing a waiting list for Crimson Spinels instead of suboptimally gemming? You may be short on Crimson Spinels right now, but your guild will eventually have a surplus as people gear up. Before we killed Illidan, our Crimson Spinels would be going to use as soon as they dropped. Now that we've been farming awhile, Crimson Spinel demand isn't so high. We had a nearly equal demand for Pyrestones from our melee, and our healers love Shadowsong Amethysts, so it did not seem worthwhile to use epic gems I didn't really want and wanted to eventually replace.
#822SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0awakened
I'm a 41/7/11 build lock who is currently raiding SSC/TK (we are at the final bosses in both). I'm concerned that I may not be getting the kind of DPS that I should or could be. My spec has some wasted talents in that I no longer get to cast CoA/CoD in a raid setting... I'm stuck on CoS/CoE duty since most the other locks don't have Malediction. Fully buffed etc, I can hover at around 1320 spell damage, but it seems like most of that is wasted since the bulk of my casts are SB and I just don't have the crit or spell hit rating to take advantage of it. Don't get me wrong, I can keep my own among the other locks, even surpass them at times, it's just that I don't seem to be able to compete all that much with the other DPS classes. I know that there are those classes that will consistently top the DPS charts, but I'd like to consistently hit number 5 instead of just peaking occasionally at number 5. Do any locks stay Afflic once they move on to BT/MH or do they all go demo/destr? Would dumping UA for Ruin improve my DPS or merely highlight the fact that I have no crit or spell hit? Any comments welcome.
#823SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krazen
Originally Posted by Gumibear View Post
Have you considered just doing a waiting list for Crimson Spinels instead of suboptimally gemming? You may be short on Crimson Spinels right now, but your guild will eventually have a surplus as people gear up. Before we killed Illidan, our Crimson Spinels would be going to use as soon as they dropped. Now that we've been farming awhile, Crimson Spinel demand isn't so high. We had a nearly equal demand for Pyrestones from our melee, and our healers love Shadowsong Amethysts, so it did not seem worthwhile to use epic gems I didn't really want and wanted to eventually replace.
Presumably that's what they do. I suppose one could stick with temporary blue gems while we wait, but my guild at least already has a surplus of Pyrestones. By the time we have that many Spinels, we'll have a large excess of other gems as well.
#824SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by awakened View Post
I know that there are those classes that will consistently top the DPS charts, but I'd like to consistently hit number 5 instead of just peaking occasionally at number 5. Do any locks stay Afflic once they move on to BT/MH or do they all go demo/destr? Would dumping UA for Ruin improve my DPS or merely highlight the fact that I have no crit or spell hit? Any comments welcome.
Classes that consistently top DPS charts? You mean, other than warlocks?

In my experience, at your progression and gear level, only the best equipped rogues can keep up with destrolocks.

All specs (affliction, demo and destro) have their fans, but they all do solid dps and should be hovering near the top. Even the Malediction warlock should be able to hold their own. If you're outdpsing another warlock while providing talented CoS, then something is definitely wrong with guy.

Make sure to have at the very least enough hit rating to be capped on trash (5% or 60ish), more is better. Check your dot selection (is Immolate worth it for you?) and uptime: are you refreshing too early? too late?
#825SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0KuruQan
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Compendium mentions CoA being better than unamped CoD. If you have amp, you probably want to amp CoD and use CoA in between.

Compendium also mentions that CoD isn't affected and that we don't know why.

Compendium also mentions that it's only for affliction locks.

Please read the compendium before stating that it is wrong, please.
How many aff lock dont have Amped curse.It should be included in any math done about aff locks.But do you know whats the sad thing?After doing some math,it turns out you are right.Even amping CoD is a waste if you have>1250shadowdmg.I cant believe that CoA could be better.
And I am just surprised,that Blizz havent fixed such an obvious bug,although we are talking about a company unable to fix a range bug for more than 2 years.
And this last sentence was just thinking that if a lock has 1300+ shadowdmg,he will most likely be destro .
#826SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0awakened
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Classes that consistently top DPS charts? You mean, other than warlocks?

In my experience, at your progression and gear level, only the best equipped rogues can keep up with destrolocks.

All specs (affliction, demo and destro) have their fans, but they all do solid dps and should be hovering near the top. Even the Malediction warlock should be able to hold their own. If you're outdpsing another warlock while providing talented CoS, then something is definitely wrong with guy.

Make sure to have at the very least enough hit rating to be capped on trash (5% or 60ish), more is better. Check your dot selection (is Immolate worth it for you?) and uptime: are you refreshing too early? too late?
In our raids, the warlocks are typically not at the top of the DPS charts. We tend to come in at number 5 and below, unless it was an extremely lock friendly fight. We take 4 locks on our raids, 2 deep affliction, 1 demo, and one demo/destruction. Our top DPS spot is either filled by a Rogue or a Mage, followed by either another Mage or Shadow Priest, then the locks start to show up. Occasionally even a DPS Warrior/Shaman will show up above us. Granted some of these people are much better geared than the rest of the raid, but even still, I don't feel the warlocks should be trailing behind so much, on average. Of the 4, I tend to sit more near the top then not, which seems odd considering I can't even use Amp Curse and the two biggest damage DoTs that I have.

I would have to say that if anything, I may refresh late. I keep UA up as much as possible but will sometimes let Corruption or SL drop to get off another SB. I think I rarely use Immo in my rotation, as my gear is extremely shadow biased. I basically run CoS>Corr/SL/UA then SB spam between refreshes. I tend to play aggressively, so I cast until I run out of juice, then resupply all at once as opposed to during my rotation. It's only on the really long fights that I run into diminishing returns with this approach. I trinket cast when I can, but I only have one trinket that boosts damage over time (Icon of the Silver Crescent), the other is a pure +spell damage trinket. Because I cast so many SBs, I feel like I need to be doing something there to boost it's potential. I just don't know if Ruin will help it enough to justify dropping UA. I'm trying to figure out how to keep up the raid buffs while at least keeping in the DPS game. It's getting more difficult to compete with the non-affliction locks as they gear up and learn to play their specs better. My only plus is that I carry more spell damage than they do, but as I start to switch to T5 gear, that will begin to change.
#827SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krazen
Originally Posted by awakened View Post
In our raids, the warlocks are typically not at the top of the DPS charts. We tend to come in at number 5 and below, unless it was an extremely lock friendly fight. We take 4 locks on our raids, 2 deep affliction, 1 demo, and one demo/destruction. Our top DPS spot is either filled by a Rogue or a Mage, followed by either another Mage or Shadow Priest, then the locks start to show up. Occasionally even a DPS Warrior/Shaman will show up above us. Granted some of these people are much better geared than the rest of the raid, but even still, I don't feel the warlocks should be trailing behind so much, on average. Of the 4, I tend to sit more near the top then not, which seems odd considering I can't even use Amp Curse and the two biggest damage DoTs that I have.

I would have to say that if anything, I may refresh late. I keep UA up as much as possible but will sometimes let Corruption or SL drop to get off another SB. I think I rarely use Immo in my rotation, as my gear is extremely shadow biased. I basically run CoS>Corr/SL/UA then SB spam between refreshes. I tend to play aggressively, so I cast until I run out of juice, then resupply all at once as opposed to during my rotation. It's only on the really long fights that I run into diminishing returns with this approach. I trinket cast when I can, but I only have one trinket that boosts damage over time (Icon of the Silver Crescent), the other is a pure +spell damage trinket. Because I cast so many SBs, I feel like I need to be doing something there to boost it's potential. I just don't know if Ruin will help it enough to justify dropping UA. I'm trying to figure out how to keep up the raid buffs while at least keeping in the DPS game. It's getting more difficult to compete with the non-affliction locks as they gear up and learn to play their specs better. My only plus is that I carry more spell damage than they do, but as I start to switch to T5 gear, that will begin to change.
Couple points, which are mentioned earlier in this thread:

1. Use UA > Corr at all times. Since they are both 18 second dots, they will sync up every time. Maintain SL independently of this.
2. Your 'lifetapping all at once' approach leads me to believe you're lifetapping when DoTs have expired. You don't want to do this; lifetap only after dots are up in place of shadowbolts.
3. Are you dotting multiple targets?
4. Group buffs/player consumables have a significant impact on dps.
#828SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Stran
Originally Posted by awakened View Post
In our raids, the warlocks are typically not at the top of the DPS charts. We tend to come in at number 5 and below, unless it was an extremely lock friendly fight. We take 4 locks on our raids, 2 deep affliction, 1 demo, and one demo/destruction. Our top DPS spot is either filled by a Rogue or a Mage, followed by either another Mage or Shadow Priest, then the locks start to show up. Occasionally even a DPS Warrior/Shaman will show up above us. Granted some of these people are much better geared than the rest of the raid, but even still, I don't feel the warlocks should be trailing behind so much, on average. Of the 4, I tend to sit more near the top then not, which seems odd considering I can't even use Amp Curse and the two biggest damage DoTs that I have.

I would have to say that if anything, I may refresh late. I keep UA up as much as possible but will sometimes let Corruption or SL drop to get off another SB. I think I rarely use Immo in my rotation, as my gear is extremely shadow biased. I basically run CoS>Corr/SL/UA then SB spam between refreshes. I tend to play aggressively, so I cast until I run out of juice, then resupply all at once as opposed to during my rotation. It's only on the really long fights that I run into diminishing returns with this approach. I trinket cast when I can, but I only have one trinket that boosts damage over time (Icon of the Silver Crescent), the other is a pure +spell damage trinket. Because I cast so many SBs, I feel like I need to be doing something there to boost it's potential. I just don't know if Ruin will help it enough to justify dropping UA. I'm trying to figure out how to keep up the raid buffs while at least keeping in the DPS game. It's getting more difficult to compete with the non-affliction locks as they gear up and learn to play their specs better. My only plus is that I carry more spell damage than they do, but as I start to switch to T5 gear, that will begin to change.
Taping all at once can lead to a significant loss in DPS. The reasoning is due to a few factors:

1. UA has 3 seconds left and your SB just finished. Cast another SB and you just lost 2 seconds of UA and Corruption uptime. If you Life Tap or Dark Pact, you just used 1.5 seconds to catch up on mana and can begin recasting UA and follow it with a Corruption, keeping 100% dot uptime. This will add up over the course of the fight.

2. Fight requires movement. If you just used 6 seconds to tap to full (doing no damage at this time) and now have to move ... that movement time is largely wasted unless some instant dots need refreshing. Instead, tap on the move and save non movement time for SBs and UA casting.

3. While not an impact on DPS, tapping all at once can lead to an accidental death. Getting used to tapping during a rotation can ensure your healers do not blow their mana on emergency heals, and can ensure your survival. You can also likely stay toped up with SL ticking. If you have a Shadow Priest in group, not taping regularly leads to his passive healing being largely wasted (but does provide him with slightly less threat at least)

Other notes:

1. It takes a large number of +shadow to make immolate worthless. It does need 16% hit as opposed to other dots but it cuts into SB time anyways which also requires 16% hit.

2. How do you calculate DPS/Damage Done? This can have a large impact. Some guilds include trash in their numbers. While clearing trash quickly is very beneficial, it largely favors burst builds (mages, rogues, shamans, warriors). So maximizing DPS on trash is very beneficial but evaluating your build on it is not, as few guilds struggle with trash while high DPS on bosses can mean a difference between success and fail.

3. Your dots are king. If there are multiple targets available, prioritize dots on all targets over shadowbolts. You will not get the benefit of main kill target debuffs (ISB, SW, Misery) but you will still see a great DPS increase.

4. You did not link your profile, keep in mind even affliction locks need 16% hit to be competitive. 45% of your damage should be from SB (unless multi target encounter).

Hope that helps. I am regularly top of my guilds charts. I acheived this in both 6/44/11 and 0/21/40 builds. Rogues do trounce me on some encounters, while I trounce them on others. Recently a mage has been gunning for that spot but I remain very competitive. While affliction locks do tend to sacrifice a lot for the utility they provide, I was beaten by one last night on Terron (I blame it on a very biased blossom pushing my spells back).
#829SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Idk
Originally Posted by KuruQan View Post
How many aff lock dont have Amped curse.
I think that any practical affliction raiding build will not make use of amp curse, even if the points in the tree allow one to get it. The raid has use for at most 2 affliction locks, one for each kind of malediction-enhanced curse. Additional affliction locks consume more debuff slots and their improved damage curses rarely outweigh the raw damage of a destro or felguard lock... and any respectable warlock build (for pure raid dps) that's not deep affliction will not have amp curse.

So who actually ends up using the talent?
#830SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0awakened
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
Couple points, which are mentioned earlier in this thread:

1. Use UA > Corr at all times. Since they are both 18 second dots, they will sync up every time. Maintain SL independently of this.
2. Your 'lifetapping all at once' approach leads me to believe you're lifetapping when DoTs have expired. You don't want to do this; lifetap only after dots are up in place of shadowbolts.
3. Are you dotting multiple targets?
4. Group buffs/player consumables have a significant impact on dps.

2. I typically use Dark Pact over Life Tap unless my Imp is on empty. I always refresh my DoTs before doing so unless doing so would generate too much aggro. The RL will call no more DoTs on certain fights to ensure that the tank can reestablish aggro first. So there is always instances where DoTs will drop. Keep in mind that I usually rejuice while I am on the move or when we are switching targets. It's only on the extremely long fights that I have to interrupt my spell rotation to do so.

3. Dotting multiple targets isn't an option for the most part because we move from target to target generally. Nothing pisses off the RL more than seeing a DoT show up on a target that isn't the current target. Some fights we are tasked with dual duty, but generally, we're on a single target at all times.
#831SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pidge
1. Use UA > Corr at all times. Since they are both 18 second dots, they will sync up every time. Maintain SL independently of this.
I have to disagree with this statement. Corruption and UA are both 18 second dots, so it doesn't matter what order you cast them in as long as you refresh them in the same order every rotation. When I'm Affliction, I cast Corruption > UA with a /castsequence macro, and that order feels better to me for two reasons.

1. There are times when I want to only cast Corruption, such as during trash or kiting Stalkers on Vashj.
2. I feel there is a delay in /castsequence macros when attempting to chain after spells with a casting time. I think it is caused by the sequence not advancing to the next spell in the cycle until the client finishes the current spellcast.
#832SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Stran
Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
I have to disagree with this statement. Corruption and UA are both 18 second dots, so it doesn't matter what order you cast them in as long as you refresh them in the same order every rotation. When I'm Affliction, I cast Corruption > UA with a /castsequence macro, and that order feels better to me for two reasons.

1. There are times when I want to only cast Corruption, such as during trash or kiting Stalkers on Vashj.
2. I feel there is a delay in /castsequence macros when attempting to chain after spells with a casting time. I think it is caused by the sequence not advancing to the next spell in the cycle until the client finishes the current spellcast.
Due to how GCD interacts with latency, it is better to lead off with a UA. If you utilize a cast bar with latency timer, it's far easier to recognize when the spell is truly finished casting when it has a cast time. GCD is also maintained by the client (as well as server) while cast times have gone through a revamp recently. Even prior to the revamp, it was better to UA first then stopcast a corruption. Test it out, you will notice an increase in dps and dot up time if you use UA -> Corr. The increase is negligible to noticeable, depending on your latency.

Caveat is that you never let UA drop before starting to recast it. It needs to start being reapplied 1.5 seconds prior to its last tick.
#833SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Idk
I'm going to speak a little blasphemy here. I'm thinking about a shadowfury build. Since this is a thread about PVE warlock raiding, I figured this would still be relevant.

Some context: I'm on a backwater server where 25-man raiding doesn't happen. The small guild that I'm in focuses on the 10-man ZA timed event in spite of our T4/KZ gear. I've been thinking of ways to optimize my spec for the run. My raid always has a shadowpriest and almost never has a mage. I'm frequently the only warlock, so CoS is about all the raid gets in terms of curses. Our tanks and healers are geared and skilled enough to not need the debuff from shadow's embrace, and we only run with 2 healers. Speeding up the rate at which we kill bosses and trash is the way for us to bridge the gap between killing 3 bosses and killing 4 bosses. My damage is already highly optimized, I'm generally doing 1200-1400 for the 4 timed event bosses with a standard 0/21/40 build. I've elected not to take a UA build because the DPS is awful for trash, which is half the speed run. I love the felguard build but the boss encounters in ZA are largely pet unfriendly (and 2-piece T5 isn't available to me).

I think that shadowfury is a powerful talent for select encounters in ZA.. so I wondered how viable you could make a raiding spec that included it. What I came to realize is that shadowfury has a .5s cast time that doesn't trigger the global cooldown. The raw damage of my shadowfury (which includes spell power and averaged crit but does not include ISB, CoS, misery, SW, etc.) is 1148. My shadowbolt is 1981. The DPCT of shadowfury before debuffs is 2296 compared to shadowbolt's 792. I know it's not going to be a huge damage increase because shadowfury inhibits ISB uptime by consuming a charge (I presume but this will require verification), it's on a 20 second cooldown, and it's expensive (710 mana before cataclysm).

So I added shadowfury to my damage simulator giving it a .5s cast + lag and no GCD, and started playing with specs. I also generated numbers for other standard specs to get an idea of relative value.

shadowfury and shadowbolts: 1371.46
ua with immolate: 1389.41
7/13/41 with corr: 1395.32
ua without immolate: 1399.07
20/0/41 (no grim reach): 1405.27
7/13/41 with corr and immo + destro fire talents: 1421.48
20/0/41 with corr and immo + destro fire talents: 1426.44
0/21/40 shadowbolt spam: 1538.95
0/40/21 DT/Ruin: 1549.53

My favorite variant so far is 7/13/41 with the destro fire talents to improve immolate. With just the shadowpriest and I in the raid, ISB uptime for him drops by 7% as compared to a pure shadowbolt spam 0/21/40 build.. a difference of 1.4% total damage for him. FYI, my damage numbers above already incorporate the drop in ISB uptime.

So it's interesting.. and it's not nearly as bad as I thought it would be. The other thing that's amusing about this spec is that it's the only one that I know of that truly has a disposable pet. With 13 points in demonology (for aegis) it's easy to get the improved imp for the extra little boost in stamina for the party. On fights that are not stam intensive (with little raid damage) it's possible to just have the imp slinging firebolts. With a shadowpriest in the group he should be able to spam for quite awhile. Finally, I think there's just enough movement in the ZA boss fights to benefit from the instant-cast corruption and .5s shadowfury (that should be easy to pull off "on the move").

Thoughts? Has anyone else put much thought into a spec that includes shadowfury? Given that you need to select the AOE target once the spell has been triggered, is it actually practical to consider the spell a .5s + lag cast?
#834SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Stran
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
I'm going to speak a little blasphemy here. I'm thinking about a shadowfury build. Since this is a thread about PVE warlock raiding, I figured this would still be relevant.

Some context: I'm on a backwater server where 25-man raiding doesn't happen. The small guild that I'm in focuses on the 10-man ZA timed event in spite of our T4/KZ gear. I've been thinking of ways to optimize my spec for the run. My raid always has a shadowpriest and almost never has a mage. I'm frequently the only warlock, so CoS is about all the raid gets in terms of curses. Our tanks and healers are geared and skilled enough to not need the debuff from shadow's embrace, and we only run with 2 healers. Speeding up the rate at which we kill bosses and trash is the way for us to bridge the gap between killing 3 bosses and killing 4 bosses. My damage is already highly optimized, I'm generally doing 1200-1400 for the 4 timed event bosses with a standard 0/21/40 build. I've elected not to take a UA build because the DPS is awful for trash, which is half the speed run. I love the felguard build but the boss encounters in ZA are largely pet unfriendly (and 2-piece T5 isn't available to me).

I think that shadowfury is a powerful talent for select encounters in ZA.. so I wondered how viable you could make a raiding spec that included it. What I came to realize is that shadowfury has a .5s cast time that doesn't trigger the global cooldown. The raw damage of my shadowfury (which includes spell power and averaged crit but does not include ISB, CoS, misery, SW, etc.) is 1148. My shadowbolt is 1981. The DPCT of shadowfury before debuffs is 2296 compared to shadowbolt's 792. I know it's not going to be a huge damage increase because shadowfury inhibits ISB uptime by consuming a charge (I presume but this will require verification), it's on a 20 second cooldown, and it's expensive (710 mana before cataclysm).

So I added shadowfury to my damage simulator giving it a .5s cast + lag and no GCD, and started playing with specs. I also generated numbers for other standard specs to get an idea of relative value.

shadowfury and shadowbolts: 1371.46
ua with immolate: 1389.41
7/13/41 with corr: 1395.32
ua without immolate: 1399.07
20/0/41 (no grim reach): 1405.27
7/13/41 with corr and immo + destro fire talents: 1421.48
20/0/41 with corr and immo + destro fire talents: 1426.44
0/21/40 shadowbolt spam: 1538.95
0/40/21 DT/Ruin: 1549.53

My favorite variant so far is 7/13/41 with the destro fire talents to improve immolate. With just the shadowpriest and I in the raid, ISB uptime for him drops by 7% as compared to a pure shadowbolt spam 0/21/40 build.. a difference of 1.4% total damage for him. FYI, my damage numbers above already incorporate the drop in ISB uptime.

So it's interesting.. and it's not nearly as bad as I thought it would be. The other thing that's amusing about this spec is that it's the only one that I know of that truly has a disposable pet. With 13 points in demonology (for aegis) it's easy to get the improved imp for the extra little boost in stamina for the party. On fights that are not stam intensive (with little raid damage) it's possible to just have the imp slinging firebolts. With a shadowpriest in the group he should be able to spam for quite awhile. Finally, I think there's just enough movement in the ZA boss fights to benefit from the instant-cast corruption and .5s shadowfury (that should be easy to pull off "on the move").

Thoughts? Has anyone else put much thought into a spec that includes shadowfury? Given that you need to select the AOE target once the spell has been triggered, is it actually practical to consider the spell a .5s + lag cast?

Not sure what to offer you. Your own numbers show that it's not the optimal DPS spec. It isn't as much DPS as 21/40 nor is it as mana efficient. If you are not after the optimal spec (be it DPS or utility) anything you get will likely be speculations. You are obviously willing to take the DPS hit, so with that in mind, is shadowfury usable? Sure, any spec is. Will it increase your run time? Likely not. It will help on some bosses, but you will be slower on others. Shadowfury also stuns which I believe generates additional threat. And as far as cast time, 0.5 is close. With enough practice, you can get off SF in a split second.
#835SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Suggestive
It appears Syphon of the Nathrezim comsumes ISB charges (if the WoW forums are to be believed). I will probably try to con our MT into some tests with me later today just to satisfy my curiosity. What i'm trying to figure out, is how much of an impact this has on raid DPS. It doesn't help that i can't seem to find any sort of definitive information on its chance to proc. If anyone has, or can point me towards anything that indicates its proc chance that would be awesome.
#836SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krazen
Originally Posted by awakened View Post
2. I typically use Dark Pact over Life Tap unless my Imp is on empty. I always refresh my DoTs before doing so unless doing so would generate too much aggro. The RL will call no more DoTs on certain fights to ensure that the tank can reestablish aggro first. So there is always instances where DoTs will drop. Keep in mind that I usually rejuice while I am on the move or when we are switching targets. It's only on the extremely long fights that I have to interrupt my spell rotation to do so.

3. Dotting multiple targets isn't an option for the most part because we move from target to target generally. Nothing pisses off the RL more than seeing a DoT show up on a target that isn't the current target. Some fights we are tasked with dual duty, but generally, we're on a single target at all times.
Well, as stran said, dots are king. FLK, for example, offers an excellent opportunity for tab dotting, and that's your greatest strength with that build.

Throw a doom on FLK on the pull. While your raid is killing the shaman (or hunter), maintain full dots on that one and maintain at least agony, UA, Corr on the other. Throw a 2nd doom on FLK as you hike over to the priest.

There are some exceptions to this, I guess (Striders on Vashj have to be killed before the next pops), but you have to evaluate those situations on your own.

If your RL doesn't let you maximize your potential, that's his problem, not yours.
#837SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Idk
I guess I'm probing for experience with the spec and trying to promote general discussion about a skill that's largely ignored (and ignored for good reason the vast majority of the time). I intend to spec it and try it but I want to make sure my logic is sound before i make that decision (and risk a timed event opportunity).

7/13/41 is less mana efficient than 0/21/40 but gains imp lifetap. The number of lifetaps in a 10 minute fight between the two specs are identical assuming 16% hit and shadow priest regen (for me it's 36 taps unless there are excessive resists).

Part of the problem with my modeler (and with the spreadsheet) is that it's intended to simulate damage for extended fights (600s) that involve no movement and a single target. Unfortunately this is a far cry from what it's like to actually run ZA. The extremely difficult question to answer is: how much movement / interruption / parallel damage does it take before a more mobile spec outperforms an entirely stand-and-cast spec across an entire instance of content? That's probably something that can only be determined empirically which is more or less why I'm trying to initiate this discussion.
#838SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Suggestive View Post
It appears Syphon of the Nathrezim comsumes ISB charges (if the WoW forums are to be believed).

It doesn't do that, don't believe WoW forum goers .


Regarding 7/13/41 build, sure Shadowfury is fun, but your mana per damage (due to no 15% shadow buff) is a lot lower, so you have to life tap more to do the same damage.

However, if you must have an imp out AND have shadowfury, it is the best build.
#839SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Idk
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Regarding 7/13/41 build, sure Shadowfury is fun, but your mana per damage (due to no 15% shadow buff) is a lot lower, so you have to life tap more to do the same damage.

However, if you must have an imp out AND have shadowfury, it is the best build.
The lifetap ratio between 0/21/40 and 7/X/41+13 is very close. 0/21/40 has better DPM for the one spell shadowbolt because of the 15% buff. The 7/X/41+13 build, however, replaces some SB casts with higher mana efficiency (and better dpct) spells of immolate and corruption relative to the shadowbolt without 15% from DS. Plus, the spec has lifetap. Bottom line, the lifetap ratio is extremely close between both specs.. close enough that I'd call it functionally identical at my gear level (I've confirmed this with both my own simulator and modifying the spreadsheet to include shadowfury).

The imp comes with shadowfury regardless of how you spend your 20 points outside of the initial 41 in destruction. I'm not sure what other pet you would use and sacrifice isn't an option.
#840SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Silverstorm
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Classes that consistently top DPS charts? You mean, other than warlocks?

In my experience, at your progression and gear level, only the best equipped rogues can keep up with destrolocks.
Our mages were able to keep up and even regularly surpass us poor warlocks with their 2t5 Arcane bonuses combined with a SP/Ele Shaman, while us poor locks got neither on a regular basis.

Originally Posted by awakened View Post
3. Dotting multiple targets isn't an option for the most part because we move from target to target generally. Nothing pisses off the RL more than seeing a DoT show up on a target that isn't the current target. Some fights we are tasked with dual duty, but generally, we're on a single target at all times.
If that's the case, your RL needs to wake up and smell the flowers. Affliction locks shine on multi-target encounters due to DPCT of UA/Corr/CoA. I can run two or three stacks of DoTs and have time left to Bolt the main target. You might try reminding him that any damage dealt to secondary targets is less time spent on that target when it becomes the primary target. I know UA + Corr deals more damage in 3 seconds of cast time than 1.2 shadowbolts will for affliction locks, provided the DoTs run full duration (which they will on off-targets).

Even our SP/Boomkins will dot a secondary target. It's typical for me to tab to the second target and see 10-15 dots ticking away while the primary target gets the burn.
#841SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PSGarak
Minor nitpick: Shadowfury doesn't not have a global cooldown, it just has a 0.5s global cooldown so it doesn't matter. This tends to be true of all sub-1.5s cast spells (which is to say, warstomp shadowfury hammer of wrath).
There are several times in ZA where I wish I had a stun. Most of them involved dragonhawk trash or dragonhawk boss. It is in fact quite an awesome talent, it's just that 15% damage is a crapton to give up and the situations where you can really make use of it are few and far in between in any sort of raiding situation. Which makes me sad, because I think it's a really cute spell, and I like anything that breaks up the monotony of the otherwise-simplistic nuke-spam destro spec. If you can find a way to make it work well or a situation where it really shines I would love to hear about it.
#842SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
Shadowfury shines in any aoe fight. However those are not enough to warrant the dps loss - even on those fights where it's good it's not worth the 15% dmg loss (with the possible exception of the dragonhawk boss since it's not really a dps fight but not getting killed by the hawks is sweet).
#843SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Idk
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Shadowfury shines in any aoe fight. However those are not enough to warrant the dps loss - even on those fights where it's good it's not worth the 15% dmg loss (with the possible exception of the dragonhawk boss since it's not really a dps fight but not getting killed by the hawks is sweet).
It's not a 15% damage loss, this is the first major misconception.

Yes, you lose 15% shadow damage for your shadow bolts. With 20/0/41 you gain instant corruption, imp lifetap, amp curse, emp corr, and nightfall.. on top of shadowfury which, completely ignoring the aoe aspect of it, is still a considerably higher dpct spell than shadowbolt. I will not deny that 0/21/40 is better than any build that involves 41 in destruction for a stand and cast, but I think it's a misconception that a shadowfury build is 15% worse than a destro build that involves demonic sacrifice. My work with the spreadsheet and my damage simulator puts the difference at ~8% for pure stand and cast fights.

Under almost no circumstance would I take an 8% damage hit. However, I do believe that the damage potential of a shadowfury build specifically in a ZA timed event raid may be better than 0/21/40.. but that's because 1. not all boss fights are stationary casting, and 2. shadowbolt spamming is very inefficient for multi-mob fights. I can think of tons of places where a ranged stun can improve things..

1. Bear trash: contributing to the stunlocking of the totem guys that put up the immunity totem
2. Bear trash: keeping my fear target in place to reapply fear for the pull immediately before bear (we have no mages to sheep them)
3. Eagle fight: is it possible to hit any birds while hitting him with the shadowfury?
4. Eagle fight: having a damage spell to cast on the run after bubbling up for the storm (since tapping here is not a good idea)
5. Lynx trash: contributing to stunlocking the tamers to minimize mind control
6. Lynx fight: stunning the lynx trash at the boss when they pop up to make it stupid simple for the OT to pick them up
7. Firehawk trash: being able to solo the scouts from range (shadowbolt + shadowfury + shadowbolt/sp/immo/shadowburn)
8. Firehawk trash: helping stunlock flamecasters, particularly if you have the bad luck to get 3+ flame casters on the pull before firehawk
9. Firehawk boss: fairly obvious
10. Generically, the instance is full of aoe pulls and we use a prot pally to tank. Seed does great damage but the dpct of shadowfury is even better because of its extremely short cast time.

What I need to find out is how useful this utility is. I also need to find out how shadowfury is affected by ISB. I assume it consumes a charge but there's always the chance that it doesn't.
#844SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
For timed ZA, I highly doubt this utility will help more than +8% dmg.
#845SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Suggestive
For most of the scenarios you listed, shadowfury provides at best marginal utility, and would not make any serious dent in how they are handled. I'm not sure that utility justifies the DPS loss you show, but at the end of the day its your choice.
#846SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
It's not a 15% damage loss, this is the first major misconception.

Yes, you lose 15% shadow damage for your shadow bolts. With 20/0/41 you gain instant corruption, imp lifetap, amp curse, emp corr, and nightfall.. on top of shadowfury which, completely ignoring the aoe aspect of it, is still a considerably higher dpct spell than shadowbolt.

....(cut)...

What I need to find out is how useful this utility is. I also need to find out how shadowfury is affected by ISB. I assume it consumes a charge but there's always the chance that it doesn't.
Considering Shadowfury does trigger global cooldown, for purposes of dpct it should be considered as having 1.5 seconds casting time. There is no way it can outdo a destrolock's Shadow Bolt on dpct.

Of course it uses ISB charges, unless it's bugged. Feel free to try it and see if it doesn't, easily tested.


As for the original question:
I personally like Shadowfury a lot. It's nifty and fast and has a very low cooldown, and it allows you to do a lot of stuff warlocks typically can't, like ranged stuns/interrupts. The dps loss is probably around 10% indeed. You do gain Bloodpact and imp lifetap, both definite bonuses in ZA.

Whether it's worth it: up to you, really. The tradeoff is raw firepower vs control, so the answer will no doubt be subjective.
#847SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0galzohar
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Shadowfury

While thottbot isn't exactly the "omg-reliable" information, it had been correct regarding global cooldowns for other spells (for example HoW having 0.5s, and shield block having none).
#848SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Suggestive
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
It doesn't do that, don't believe WoW forum goers .


Regarding 7/13/41 build, sure Shadowfury is fun, but your mana per damage (due to no 15% shadow buff) is a lot lower, so you have to life tap more to do the same damage.

However, if you must have an imp out AND have shadowfury, it is the best build.
Yup, just tried it on Durn the hungerer a few hours ago and it definitely doesn't consume the charges. I can't begin to say just how much i hate myself for believing that tripe for even a minute.
#849SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Ammanas
Originally Posted by Silverstorm View Post
Our mages were able to keep up and even regularly surpass us poor warlocks with their 2t5 Arcane bonuses combined with a SP/Ele Shaman, while us poor locks got neither on a regular basis.
I can usually out-DPS the arcane mages and their ele shaman, of course we have two shadow priests so I almost always have that. On fights where we use CoR I can keep up with our sword rogues, but usually get out-dps'd by one or two of them. Our BM hunter also does some really nice DPS on the CoR fights (assuming they are pet friendly). FYI we are 5/5 6/9, but progressed pretty fast so we aren't that geared (our mages are still arcane, the raid has mostly T5 gear with a couple of T6 drops).

3. Dotting multiple targets isn't an option for the most part because we move from target to target generally. Nothing pisses off the RL more than seeing a DoT show up on a target that isn't the current target. Some fights we are tasked with dual duty, but generally, we're on a single target at all times.
As far as tab dotting, talk to your raid leader. There is no reason not to DoT up tanked trash, explain to him that its actually beneficial: if you were to just DoT the main target and start SBing and crit you'd probably pull aggro. I know if I don't spend the first seconds of trash pulls throwing CoA on the other tanked targets and just start DPSing the first target I'm probably going to pull. And as an affliction lock, its even more beneficial for you're overall damage.

Last edited by Ammanas : 01/07/08 at 3:21 PM.
#850SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0PSGarak
There are very particular fights where one trash mob in a pack absolutely needs to die right the hell now. Most trash packs do not have such a mob, and is in fact boring enough that a DPSer can ignore its special abilities. In situations like this, the only thing that matters is how fast the pack as a whole dies, and multiple targets lets us take advantage of DoTs' higher DPCT. Educate your raid leader.
#851SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Silverstorm
Originally Posted by Ammanas View Post
I can usually out-DPS the arcane mages and their ele shaman, of course we have two shadow priests so I almost always have that. On fights where we use CoR I can keep up with our sword rogues, but usually get out-dps'd by one or two of them. Our BM hunter also does some really nice DPS on the CoR fights (assuming they are pet friendly). FYI we are 5/5 6/9, but progressed pretty fast so we aren't that geared (our mages are still arcane, the raid has mostly T5 gear with a couple of T6 drops).
We usually have 2-3 SP as well...but me being affliction means I'm in the MT group, which usually consists of MT buffing, rather than warlock DPS buffing. I'm also the lone Malediction lock, so I volunteer my CoS to the raid. That said, VE could be useful in that group to provide a nearly constant source of healing for the tank. Unfortunately, our healers/arcane mages steal all the SPs.

We're at 4/5 3/9, and have cleared that for 3 weeks now (plus a couple more weeks in Hyjal on just the earlier bosses while we finished attunements).
#852SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2awakened
Hmm... 40 debuff limit. How would you know you're hitting it?
#853SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Fafhrd
Originally Posted by awakened View Post
Hmm... 40 debuff limit. How would you know you're hitting it?
Demon addon:
Demon - Debuff Monitor (pDebuffList2)

To continue the discussion about best warlock weapon; the theoretical dps numbers for [Zhar'doom, Greatstaff of the Devourer] versus [Tempest of Chaos]/[Chronicle of Dark Secrets] are pretty close. People who have looted both sets, which ones are you using? Choosing crit over haste would make the dps you put out in a single bossfight pretty much luck-based afaik.
#854SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2wind
Originally Posted by awakened View Post
Hmm... 40 debuff limit. How would you know you're hitting it?
There are unit frames that show you the number of debuffs on the target, as well as addons such as Demon, that even has a thread on these forums.
#855SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Krazen
Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
Demon addon:
Demon - Debuff Monitor (pDebuffList2)

To continue the discussion about best warlock weapon; the theoretical dps numbers for [Zhar'doom, Greatstaff of the Devourer] versus [Tempest of Chaos]/[Chronicle of Dark Secrets] are pretty close. People who have looted both sets, which ones are you using? Choosing crit over haste would make the dps you put out in a single bossfight pretty much luck-based afaik.
If you don't need the hit, Zhar'doom is better. Making up 34 hit is pretty easy with the [Belt of Blasting] over [Anetheron's Noose].
#856SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2rochan
Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
Demon addon:
Demon - Debuff Monitor (pDebuffList2)

To continue the discussion about best warlock weapon; the theoretical dps numbers for [Zhar'doom, Greatstaff of the Devourer] versus [Tempest of Chaos]/[Chronicle of Dark Secrets] are pretty close. People who have looted both sets, which ones are you using? Choosing crit over haste would make the dps you put out in a single bossfight pretty much luck-based afaik.
Ha, if someone has both they either have a very lucky guild, or is hated by their guild mates.

But to point, they are basically the same in terms of DPS, there are lots of possible gear combinations mentioned several pages back I believe. They difference was negligible.

In practice, the +hit on Tempest may go to waste, but on the other hand, haste bonus can be difficult to make use of.
#857SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2 frmorrison
It hit capped otherwise with zero hit gems, Zhar'doom is better. However, that is quite a bit of hit to have in other slots.

Haste is always useful, since every spec casts Shadow Bolt.


I agree with rochan, a caster with both weapons (unless healers had them too), would be hated by their guild, I doubt anyone is that lucky.
#858SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Melladi
Hey EJ, I dont have the posts or rep for posting here in its own thread, so I posted on my guild forums!

Why YOU need an affliction lock in your raid!

A fairly accurate theorycrafting exploration of the raid DPS impact of one utility affliction lock.
#859SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Fafhrd
Originally Posted by Melladi View Post
Hey EJ, I dont have the posts or rep for posting here in its own thread, so I posted on my guild forums!

Why YOU need an affliction lock in your raid!

A fairly accurate theorycrafting exploration of the raid DPS impact of one utility affliction lock.
Nice summary, however you don't take into account the lost ISB uptime by having one or two affliction locks in the raid.

Affliction locks are great when you are learning encounters, for both Imp and SE, but I don't think they are a big improvement for farm raids unless you are running with 4+ warlocks.
#860SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Melladi
Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
Nice summary, however you don't take into account the lost ISB uptime by having one or two affliction locks in the raid.

Affliction locks are great when you are learning encounters, for both Imp and SE, but I don't think they are a big improvement for farm raids unless you are running with 4+ warlocks.
While you are right that I didnt take it into account, the T6 profile still has 20.56% crit to shadow bolt, which isnt nearly nothing. This is part of the reason I ignored that aspect, in that the itemization away from damage is unavoidable.
#861SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
Nice summary, however you don't take into account the lost ISB uptime by having one or two affliction locks in the raid.

Affliction locks are great when you are learning encounters, for both Imp and SE, but I don't think they are a big improvement for farm raids unless you are running with 4+ warlocks.
Agreed.

Shadow Embrace and an imp are great. I think it goes without saying a raid with one affliction warlock is best off. Even on farm kills stuff can go bad occasionally.

That said:
- Malediction is not 3% more shadow damage, it's 113% instead of 110%.
- ISB uptime is not negligible. Affliction locks have 3% less crit, focus their gear less around crit, and cast less SBs. Hard to model though, although nice attempts have been made by Leulier.
- In addition, I don't like the "this % of raid damage is physical so we save on healing" argument. If you're going to argue that SE is beneficial, I'd go for "it mitigates spike damage, which is what kills tanks". Any string of hits that kills a tank is bound to have a very large physical component, unless it is a gimmick designed to one shot people.

Whether an affliction warlock ups dps is hard to determine. I doubt he does, but I don't consider that very relevant. I'd go for the general statement: "good enough dps with perks". Ask a tank what gear he'd need to get 1000 extra hit points and -5% physical damage.

Last edited by Arelenda : 01/08/08 at 9:30 PM.
#862SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2galzohar
affliction spec variants

The affliction tree has very little leeway requiring 42-44 points to maximize its dps (and threat reduction) ignoring CoA and all utility (counting malediction as "dps" and not "utility" of course - by utility I mean CoEx, drain life and the likes), with the 2 "optional" points being the range increase. The destruction tree pretty much requires 17 points as spending any less will hurt your and your raid's dps more than it'll help.

This pretty much leaves you with 1-3 points to play with. Would the improved imp for better tank buffs be worth the range loss? I'm a big fan of range, then again I'm a big fan of stacking the tank with buffs whenever possible so he doesn't die. And going with range last point could go into either CoEx or at least 1/3 improved imp, leaning towards imp as CoEs is hardly useful past vashj as far as I know, and even on vashj it has useful alternatives. Also there's the option of getting 1-2 points in intensity for pushback prevention (1 without losing range, 2 require losing at least 1 point from the range talent).

How would you go with the very few points you do have the option to choose what to do with in the affliction tree?
#863SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Melladi
This Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is what I'm running right now in BT.

Yeah, the math is wrong as someone pointed out, its not a 3% increase. However, its still CLOSE to a 3% increase, which means the generalities of the post are still intact.
#864SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2PSGarak
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warlock -> Talent Calculator
Those are the 30 actual raid-DPS talents in the tree, ignoring shadow embrace and CoA and picking up range, threat, and malediction, if you're hit-capped. The only things I would say are basically required for a raid build are improved lifetap and shadow embrace, but that's still only 37. There's more room in there for personalization and utility than you're giving it credit, so long as it's coming from within the affliction tree.

3 of 110 is 2.7~%, which is 1/11 less than 3%. Possibly less, if improved shadowbolt and shadoweaving stack additively. Still, it's reasonably close that any qualitative conclusions are well-supported.
#865SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Scud121
Originally Posted by Idk View Post

I think that shadowfury is a powerful talent for select encounters in ZA.. so I wondered how viable you could make a raiding spec that included it.

shadowfury and shadowbolts: 1371.46
ua with immolate: 1389.41
7/13/41 with corr: 1395.32
ua without immolate: 1399.07
20/0/41 (no grim reach): 1405.27
7/13/41 with corr and immo + destro fire talents: 1421.48
20/0/41 with corr and immo + destro fire talents: 1426.44
0/21/40 shadowbolt spam: 1538.95
0/40/21 DT/Ruin: 1549.53
Whilst the numbers show that the queried spec is less damage than the optimal, I do think that the results are skewed in favor of long static fights. As you said, theres a lot of trash in ZA, and its the trash that needs to be dropping fast. I would imagine that over short fight timings(10-15 sec), your build will do considerably better than the numbers show.

I would think that the drop in boss damage would be compensated by the faster kills on trash along with the added utility. I guess the only way to find out is to test it and let us know.

There is also the feelgood factor to consider, whilst wringing out every last 0.01 DPS with concrete sequences that have been meticulously calculated can put you at No1 on the meters, its not always suitable to your playstyle/enjoyment.
#866SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Arelenda
Originally Posted by Scud121 View Post
Whilst the numbers show that the queried spec is less damage than the optimal, I do think that the results are skewed in favor of long static fights. As you said, theres a lot of trash in ZA, and its the trash that needs to be dropping fast. I would imagine that over short fight timings(10-15 sec), your build will do considerably better than the numbers show.

I would think that the drop in boss damage would be compensated by the faster kills on trash along with the added utility. I guess the only way to find out is to test it and let us know.

There is also the feelgood factor to consider, whilst wringing out every last 0.01 DPS with concrete sequences that have been meticulously calculated can put you at No1 on the meters, its not always suitable to your playstyle/enjoyment.
"faster trash kills" I don't get. As has been shown over and over, any build with Shadowfury will be trading dps for control. This does not lead to faster trash kills since you do less damage. But ZA trash is about the worst simulation if you're comparing specs, anyway.

Please, stop bringing up the "but it does more/equal damage" argument. It doesn't.

I'm having deja vu: someone comes up with a talent build, and then decides that he has to convince everyone including himself it is the best for dps. I'm pretty tired of these jihads. Most of us have been through this with affliction vs destro and then the 30/21/10 spec. First we prove that it is inferior dps, then we get the argument about it being more fun.

It's a nice spec. I had it for a while, and it IS fun to play. The difference between that and 0/21/40 isn't all that big in terms of damage output. Distinctively less than 15%, probably near 7-10%. And it can shine in raids when it does work: ZA and Hyjal come to mind.
#867SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Bolche
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
- ISB uptime is not negligible. Affliction locks have 3% less crit, focus their gear less around crit, and cast less SBs. Hard to model though, although nice attempts have been made by Leulier.
(...)
Whether an affliction warlock ups dps is hard to determine. I doubt he does, but I don't consider that very relevant. I'd go for the general statement: "good enough dps with perks". Ask a tank what gear he'd need to get 1000 extra hit points and -5% physical damage.
I think my latest "attempt" (version 1.19 with Raid ISB Model) can answer this question pretty well. Depending on your raid setup, an affliction lock can raise or lower your raid shadow dps (compared to an 0/21/40).

SE is the only reason you want an affliction lock in a raid. If you only want an imp, a 21/0/40 can do it as well, while maintaining a higher dps and a higher ISB uptime than an affliction lock

I see malediction more like a compensation for the lower dps of affliction lock than a real added utility, and Melladi's numbers confirm this.
#868SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Krazen
Originally Posted by Bolche View Post
I think my latest "attempt" (version 1.19 with Raid ISB Model) can answer this question pretty well. Depending on your raid setup, an affliction lock can raise or lower your raid shadow dps (compared to an 0/21/40).

SE is the only reason you want an affliction lock in a raid. If you only want an imp, a 21/0/40 can do it as well, while maintaining a higher dps and a higher ISB uptime than an affliction lock

I see malediction more like a compensation for the lower dps of affliction lock than a real added utility, and Melladi's numbers confirm this.
I downloaded that spreadsheet a couple times and I'm getting a lot of Error: 508's in OpenOffice. Anyone else having a similar issue?
#869SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Silverstorm
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warlock -> Talent Calculator
Those are the 30 actual raid-DPS talents in the tree, ignoring shadow embrace and CoA and picking up range, threat, and malediction, if you're hit-capped. The only things I would say are basically required for a raid build are improved lifetap and shadow embrace, but that's still only 37. There's more room in there for personalization and utility than you're giving it credit, so long as it's coming from within the affliction tree.
37 points required, plus the 6 more in Tiers 2-3 to get to all the goodies. Your choices are Soul Siphon, Fel Conc, Amp Curse, Imp CoW and Imp CoA. I think arguments (not commenting on the quality) can be made for all them. The only time you'll be casting CoA is on off-targets, and even then not for long before you need to switch to CoS, so why not set it up the first time with CoS. That nixes Imp CoA. Imp CoW is taken care of by the DPS warriors and Imp Demo Shout. Soul Siphon is nice when the healers can't spare the time to heal. Fel Conc is nice for grinding and not being interrupted during the minimal active self-healing we do. Amp Curse...we aren't using CoA/CoD/CoEx...so it's unnecessary as well. If you're the Strider kiter...why are you wasting 12-15% of your time slowing the mob? Have someone else do that and focus on threat generation, especially while you're learning the fight.

So we have 43 required points for a raid build in Affliction, supported by a required 17 in Destro (assuming you want max range). That leaves one real point of personalization, whether it's Shadowburn, Imp HS (though the other locks have points to spare for that), or Imp Imp (since demo/destro have other pet priorities). To provide max raid utility, Imp Imp is the obvious choice, I think.

So much for choices!
#870SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Tragik
Voidheart vs. Corrupter

Hello,

First time poster.

I'm finding Lock theorycrafting difficult to say the least. My guild is currently working on Kael'thas and I am working on which upgrades to get to help them.

Currently, my damage output is OK (always in the top 5 on the meters) but I'm kind of in a rut gear-wise as to what to pursue.

So, to stay as short and sweet as possible:

My armory link is here:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...20Tor&n=Tragik

(Please, no cracks on the cloak or the gloves) I have my T4 and T5 gloves in the bank, but the biggest DPS improvement as of late that I have seen was switching to cap hit, as you can see I am. I know my crit is somewhat low for the SM/Ruin build I have, but with that being said, generally our WWS show my crit % on Sbolt to be in the 21% range in raids.

I have read a ton of information stating that the corrupter set is better, and the stats would indicate that, but I see a potential pratfall: the two-piece bonuses.

I'm considering pursuing the Cowl of the Grand Engineer and the Vestments of the Sea Witch from Vashj over bidding on another piece of Tier 5, because, frankly, I don't want to go Demo (we have an extremely proficient Demo lock as it is right now).

What I would like to see is a breakdown of how a T5 4-piece breaks down against the gear I have (just switching BACK to my T4 gloves for the two-piece bonus) with the T4 pants, with the Cowl of the Grand Engineer and the chest i have or the Vestments from Vashj (the cowl should make up for the loss of hit on the Handwraps of Flowing Thought, as the Voidheart Crown has no hit).

I can't figure it out, people say the proc rate on Shadow flame is less than 5%, however, then with my limited amount of spell dmg, I can't figure out how I am able to sustain my standing on the meters, despite the fact that other locks in our guild don't PVP in down time as much as I do (hence the Imp HoT), and have more points in contagion with more spell dmg and crit than I, if the proc rate is indeed that low.

I can see how the big increase in Stam, hit, and crit would benefit a Demo lock, but I still can't figure out if I really wasted DKP on those T5 gloves that I have in the bank at this point.

I mean in all honesty, it would be a great PVP set, except for the fact that there's 0 resilience (which trumps all at this point, IMO).


My apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere and for my overall noobness with not being able to link items in HTML (I suck at websites).

I find this disturbing on many levels because I feel Blizz is pigeonholing me to a spec for maximum output...and that spec ain't mine......
#871SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Tragik View Post
My armory link is here:
The World of Warcraft Armory

I find this disturbing on many levels because I feel Blizz is pigeonholing me to a spec for maximum output...and that spec ain't mine......
Assuming there were debuff slots, specing UA would give you more damage than Ruin.

BTW, Tier 5 gloves would be a buff on non-bosses.



Every class a its best damage spec, and it isn't your spec.
#872SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Tragik
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Assuming there were debuff slots, specing UA would give you more damage than Ruin.

BTW, Tier 5 gloves would be a buff on non-bosses.



Every class a its best damage spec, and it isn't your spec.
I am aware of this. The delivery is the problem. I have found DPS to be consistent with my spreadsheet that UA would be higher DPS by about 20 DPS. The problem is that the lack of destructive reach and Ruin end up forcing me into situations that ultimately force me to stop renewing UA due to the mechanics of the fight (Hydross, Leo) where being able to get two more Sbolts off helps.

In addition, not having Ruin made the inner demons on Leo a total PITA....

I run the EJ spreadsheet, btw.

I also understand that the T5 pieces would be a buff on non-bosses, but at the same time, I have no problem grinding as it is.

I like having the utility of being at max range and not moving for both Sbolt and my Dot refreshments.
#873SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Akj
Originally Posted by Melladi View Post
Hey EJ, I dont have the posts or rep for posting here in its own thread, so I posted on my guild forums!

Why YOU need an affliction lock in your raid!

A fairly accurate theorycrafting exploration of the raid DPS impact of one utility affliction lock.
From the above post

" So a little less than half of all damage was physical, probably typical of a majority of BT fights. So how much less damage would the tanks have taken with 5/5 shadow embrace up?

1,267,560 * 0.05 = 63,378 which is 2.4% of the total raid damage taken.

In terms of healing, thats 15 Holy Light's or 40 Flash of Light's or (insert breakdown for other healers here), which could go to a needy raid member, to keep them healing or DPSing."


I think the above conclusion is wrong. The damage reduction via SE will not result in 100% mana or time spent savings for healers since there will always be a significant amount of overhealing.
#874SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Idk
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
"faster trash kills" I don't get. As has been shown over and over, any build with Shadowfury will be trading dps for control. This does not lead to faster trash kills since you do less damage.
For single target, stand-and-cast fights it has been proven that shadowfury trades dps for control. How many trash pulls are there in ZA that consist of a single mob? I will concede that for fights with larger groups of mobs, seed of corruption is the right choice. I know that SoC isn't the right spell for two targets and I'm not convinced it's the right choice for three targets. I'd say the majority of trash pulls in ZA involve attacking 2-3 mobs at the same time with each mob dying at fairly disparate times.

Sadly I haven't run ZA since I postulated about shadowfury in the first place.. ideally I'll be doing it this evening.

But ZA trash is about the worst simulation if you're comparing specs, anyway.
Yes, ZA is the worst simulation for comparing specs unless you're comparing specs specifically FOR running ZA. After all, we're theorycrafting to improve our performance in the game.. we're not theorycrafting for the sake of theorycrafting. At least that's what I'm doing.
#875SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2galzohar
Why would an affliction warlock spec into lifedrain/fel concentration over nightfall? Granted nightfall is a small dps increase, but it's a dps increase while lifedrain and fel concentration aren't unless you don't run with healers in your raid...
#876SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Trickykid
For the most part, stunning mobs is bad for tanking since it reduces rage-generation. Also, while there are many multi-mob pulls in ZA, there should be CC on them too, making SF even more situational.
#877SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Bogeywoman
I've been every spec, and I keep coming back to 7/44/11.With my PVE gear (3T5, hitcap, ~1100 damage), I do more aggregate damage with that spec than with 0/21/40 in actual SSC/TK clears.

I think it's because of the movement requirement.

Both 7/44/11 and 0/21/40 allow you to keep your head up and scanning far more than 4x/xx/xx does due to the lowered minmax dot refresh requirements, which is a bonus -- but 7/44/11 features a buffable dot that keeps ticking, added survivability due to the shared damage pool, an emergency 2 second stun on adds, amplified +damage totals (fully buffed I'm over 1600), which play really well against the multiplicative debuffs, and most importantly of all, reduced average cast time. Since you're still throwing in corruption and immolate, you're spending about an average of 2.2 seconds casting as opposed to 2.5.

I can't explain it with math, but this extra 15% of the time that I can be moving seems to increase the amount of time that I'm using global cooldowns aggressively. I guess if you imagine a case where an arbitrary movement-requiring interrupt comes in, and you're 0/21/40 and your curse is already up, there's nothing for you to do but cancel and move, where it's more likely that the 7/44/11 is in global cooldown off a dot cast and can move immediately.
#878SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Idk
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
I'm having deja vu: someone comes up with a talent build, and then decides that he has to convince everyone including himself it is the best for dps. I'm pretty tired of these jihads. Most of us have been through this with affliction vs destro and then the 30/21/10 spec. First we prove that it is inferior dps, then we get the argument about it being more fun.
0/21/40 is unquestionably the highest dps spec for stand-and-cast-single-target damage at the high end gear level. Let me say that again: 0/21/40 is unquestionably the highest dps spec for stand-and-cast-single-target damage at the high end gear level. However, can you really say that 100% of encounters fit this description? Respecs are too cheap not to optimize for specific instances if they benefit from an offspec that may be inferior for the typical stand-and-cast-single-target encounters.

Given that 0/21/40 is thoroughly discussed and understood, I really don't see anything wrong with discussing alternate specs and strategies for specific encounters. After all, we're theorycrafting to improve performance... we're not theorycrafting to further support our simulated models. If I can conclusively produce better performance in ZA with shadowfury, is there any reason why I shouldn't do that?

If I run some numbers, postulate some ideas, present them here for critique, try it out in practice, and find that it doesn't work out.. are we all stupider because of it? I don't believe so.. I believe that everyone interested and following the discussion will understand our class just a little bit better. We'd know conclusively that for that specific encounter (and encounters like it) spec X just isn't superior. What happens if I'm right, though? I'll have found, with the help of this board, a better way to do a specific encounter.. something that's important to me. I wouldn't have brought up shadowfury if I saw the numbers presented somewhere on this site.. however, I haven't seen it. Why is it so bad to discuss something like this? 30/21/10 is different because it's been brought up many times and there's clear evidence if you look through old posts that it's not a superior spec. Please, point me to the shadowfury in ZA discussion so I can feel good about going back and deleting my previous posts. In fact, point me to any real numbers involving shadowfury on this site for any encounter. I've searched extensively and found nothing.

As maintainer of the warlock thread about PVE raiding, I find it shameful that you're so resistant to any theory that assume is incorrect or because it doesn't involve a scenario that you're interested in. Not everyone's running BT. Not everyone's in T6.

It's a nice spec. I had it for a while, and it IS fun to play. The difference between that and 0/21/40 isn't all that big in terms of damage output. Distinctively less than 15%, probably near 7-10%.
It's precisely these approximations and anecdotal statements that this board tries to shy away from. You can't tell me that results from a spreadsheet intended for a long duration encounter of a single target will actually provide realistic data for short duration fights of small groups of mobs. If you're not interested in doing that math, that's fine.. but it's infuriating to say that it's not worth doing that math because you don't believe it's better.. especially when you don't have any real evidence to support that statement.
#879SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Idk
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
For the most part, stunning mobs is bad for tanking since it reduces rage-generation. Also, while there are many multi-mob pulls in ZA, there should be CC on them too, making SF even more situational.
Yes, both good points.

1. I'd like to think that a 2s stun isn't significant enough to matter. It's the opening cheap shot that really hurts tank threat/rage generation, in my opinion. However, it's something I'll look out for. I've still never actually used shadowfury.

2. I agree that things should be CCed. However, our raid has very limited humanoid CC (no rogues, no mages).. we're limited to our shadowpriest with mind control, where AOE doesn't hurt. In addition, we work with a prot pally MT so it's faster for us to tank all the trash at once and try to do as much parallel DPS as is practical.
#880SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Trickykid
If you're killing the mobs simultaneously, you're probably better off with affliction and maintaining a high DPCT multi-dotting. Gaining control from a 2s stun on CD isn't an effective long-term strat. If your guild is going to push for the timed event, you shouldn't be relying on SF at all -- your tanks and CC should have the place burned into their brains and let DPS max out.

It might be useful for learning ZA for the first time, but if you're aiming at farming the timed rewards, y'all should know what you're doing.
#881SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Idk
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
If you're killing the mobs simultaneously, you're probably better off with affliction and maintaining a high DPCT multi-dotting. Gaining control from a 2s stun on CD isn't an effective long-term strat. If your guild is going to push for the timed event, you shouldn't be relying on SF at all -- your tanks and CC should have the place burned into their brains and let DPS max out.

It might be useful for learning ZA for the first time, but if you're aiming at farming the timed rewards, y'all should know what you're doing.
UA spec is great for killing multiple mobs if they live a long time. The DPCT of the dots are quite high as long as the dots run their full course. However, it's not unusual for the first mob to die within 18 seconds.. let alone 24 or 30. I find it hard to get better trash DPS numbers from UA than from 0/21/40, notably because it's extremely difficult to have both high dot uptime AND high dot DPCT. A mob that lives for 24 seconds may have 100% uptime from UA because of 2 casts, but ultimately 3 seconds of casting were spent to provide only 24 seconds of dot damage instead of the full 36 seconds that those casts would otherwise provide.

On top of this, I believe UA provides inferior DPS for boss fights in ZA relative to both 0/21/40 and shadowfury builds. I've personally experienced the difference between UA and 0/21/40, my simulation predicts that shadowfury is also better.
#882SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2deneba
Woo hoo, I have my two-piece Tier 5 bonus and my Solarian trinket!

I'm torn between two similar specs for SSC and TK (all bosses but Vashj and Kael, at whose doorsteps we have arrived), and I could use some advice. Both assume a soul-linked felguard out and about, at least on fights where it makes sense. For context, the raid has two other warlocks, one heavy affliction and one heavy destruction. I'm Demonology for Leotheras whom we've just gotten down recently (so I have no desire to rock the boat and change) and outside of that role am looking to simply make a strong contribution.

The first is a 7/44/10 spec that takes instant corruption and 2/2 improved lifetap, plus ISB and Bane.

The second is a 0/44/17 that loses the Affliction talents but adds Devastation and Destructive Reach.

I guess I'm trying to weigh the intangibles of instant Corruption vs. the 5% bonus to SB crits. Also, I'm trying to weigh Improved Lifetap vs. Destructive Reach. Both comparisons seem more qualitative than quantitative (the spreadsheet doesn't address intangibles all that well) so I was hoping for some advice on what would make more sense. I've currently gone the 0/44/17 route.
#883SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2PSGarak
Originally Posted by Akj View Post
From the above post

" So a little less than half of all damage was physical, probably typical of a majority of BT fights. So how much less damage would the tanks have taken with 5/5 shadow embrace up?

1,267,560 * 0.05 = 63,378 which is 2.4% of the total raid damage taken.

In terms of healing, thats 15 Holy Light's or 40 Flash of Light's or (insert breakdown for other healers here), which could go to a needy raid member, to keep them healing or DPSing."


I think the above conclusion is wrong. The damage reduction via SE will not result in 100% mana or time spent savings for healers since there will always be a significant amount of overhealing.
SE is being modeled inappropriately, true. 5% Damage reduction is almost exactly equivalent to 5% stamina increase on the tank along with 5% healing increase on the healers*. The error was in theorycrafting it in terms of mana consumption (or mp/5) instead of as a +heal function, which is just as easy to calculate, much more resilient to fight length, and reflects the actual change going on. As you mention it is subject to all the restrictions on benefitting from +stam and +heal effects, so it's probably best to let the healers decide just how good that is. Most of them will tell you it doesn't save full heals, but the equivalent of 70-100 stamina on the tank and at least +100 healing on every healer (on a phys damage-only fight) is, I'm sure, appreciated.

*It is exactly equivalent to a 1/19 = 5.26315789473684210~% increase to stamina and healing. If you need an explanation of the number, or why this is an accurate model, just ask.
#884SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Arelenda
Originally Posted by deneba View Post
Woo hoo, I have my two-piece Tier 5 bonus and my Solarian trinket!

I'm torn between two similar specs for SSC and TK (all bosses but Vashj and Kael, at whose doorsteps we have arrived), and I could use some advice. Both assume a soul-linked felguard out and about, at least on fights where it makes sense. For context, the raid has two other warlocks, one heavy affliction and one heavy destruction. I'm Demonology for Leotheras whom we've just gotten down recently (so I have no desire to rock the boat and change) and outside of that role am looking to simply make a strong contribution.

The first is a 7/44/10 spec that takes instant corruption and 2/2 improved lifetap, plus ISB and Bane.

The second is a 0/44/17 that loses the Affliction talents but adds Devastation and Destructive Reach.

I guess I'm trying to weigh the intangibles of instant Corruption vs. the 5% bonus to SB crits. Also, I'm trying to weigh Improved Lifetap vs. Destructive Reach. Both comparisons seem more qualitative than quantitative (the spreadsheet doesn't address intangibles all that well) so I was hoping for some advice on what would make more sense. I've currently gone the 0/44/17 route.
Well, in my opinion, instant corruption is not even remotely close to 5% crit. If you really must, you can put one point in it and get a 1.6 cast, which is 0.1 slower than the GCD one. But I'd probably not even bother with that.
#885SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Jimad
I'd like to ask a question or two about the 01/39/21 build. My 4th piece of T5 is just around the corner, and I'm pretty intrigued by this option. I *think* I might like to try taking advantage of both set bonuses this tier armor provides. In this gear, I'd have about 1200 spell damage completely unbuffed (no FA), spell hit would be capped, with ~25% crit. My concern is about pet management.

Obviously, raiding with the succubus would be my first choice, due to the 10% increase in damage she provides through MD. Is her physical dps on a boss required to really make this build work, or can she just be parked in a corner, fully raid buffed, and completely out of harms way? This (in most cases) would allow me to take advantage of her MD buff, SL, and Demonic Knowledge, but not really concern myself too much with her well being (assuming 2-piece T5 bonus takes care of the damage she incurs through SL damage). Never having raided with an active, dpsing pet before, I have little confidence that I could actually excel at the micro-managing required to keep her alive.

Does a fully raid buffed and phase-shifted Imp make any sense whatsoever with this build?

If excellent pet management is required with a build such as 01/39/21 (or any non-Felguard demo build variations), and I don't have faith that I'm "the guy for the job", should I just pitch alot of my T5 out the window, in favor of more "UA friendly" gear (more outright spell damage and less crit)?

Thank you.


P.S. Currently 6/6 SSC & 3/4 TK
#886SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2 tdx
I notice the OP mentions Chaotic Skyfire Diamond as the best meta gem choice for destruction warlocks, which confuses me. Perhaps my 'back of the napkin' math is wrong but Mystical Skyfire Diamond seems much stronger.

For example. In our last Supremus kill my average non-crit shadowbolt damage was 3,822. The fight was 460 seconds long and Mystical Skyfire proc'd 8 times, which is about one proc per 57.5 seconds. On each proc MSD reduced my next shadowbolt from 2.5s to 1.5s cast time, which is an extra 1,528.8 damage.

CSD would increase my critical strike bonus damage from 100% to 103%, which means in order to match the damage that MSD is contributing I would have to do 100,191.2 points of critical strike damage in the same amount of time (counting the entire crit damage, not just the bonus).

0.03 * x = 1528.8
x = 1528.8 / 0.03 = 50,860

50,860 + (50,860 - 1,528.8) = 100,191.2 (which is the total damage needed to be done from critical strikes for an extra 3% critical strike bonus damage to equal 1528.8, the damage MSD contributed).

That means my critical strike damage alone would have to contribute 1769 dps, which doesn't seem likely. Is the extra 12 crit rating from CSD making up the difference? Because it seems like to large a gap for 12 crit rating to fill.
#887SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2ninielin
Math is incorrect:

hit = 100% , normal crit = 150%, ruined crit = 200%, CSD + ruine = 209%. not 203.
#888SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Fafhrd
Originally Posted by tdx View Post
I notice the OP mentions Chaotic Skyfire Diamond as the best meta gem choice for destruction warlocks, which confuses me. Perhaps my 'back of the napkin' math is wrong but Mystical Skyfire Diamond seems much stronger.
Your concerns would be correct if the critical strike damage bonus was 3%. But with Ruin it's actually 9%. It increases base crit damage from 150% to 154.5% (3%), and double that for Ruin: 209%. This can easily be verified by checking some combatlogs on Wow Web Stats.

Edit: ninielin beat me.
#889SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2 tdx
Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
and double that for Ruin: 209%. This can easily be verified by checking some combatlogs on Wow Web Stats.
How can I easily verify it? Does anyone have a link to a post where testing was done to verify that it adds 9% not 3%?
#890SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Lianya
Right Spec for Current Level of Gear

Forgive me if this is a forbidden question. I've been reading through this thread, and it's really awesome. The amount of information here is tremendous.

I've been away from the game for a while, but I've started to play (raid) again. The spec I have is NOT the right one (or even a good one), so I've been trying to figure out what makes sense for my level of gear. (Current level is Kara/Gruul/Mag). The guild is currently in SSC/TK, having killed up to Tidewalker and Solarian.

It seems like either Affliction or Demonology. I've been thinking about switching to Demonology; however I don't want to end up with a spec that doesn't help out the guild. The other warlocks in the raid are a bit better geared than I am, due to my absence.

As experts, any info you have would be appreciated, thanks a ton for your time. I'm still reading through the thread, but so far the choice isn't clear to me. Sorry if I missed something, it's a very large thread.

EDIT: Thought I would add some quick stats to help, obviously based on current spec.
Bonus Damage (No Fel Armor): 873
Bonus Damage (Fel Armor): 1003
Hit Rating: 108
Crit Chance: 15.87%
Penetration: 0
Hit Points (No Blood Pact): 9507
Hit Points (Blood Pact): 10578

Last edited by Lianya : 01/10/08 at 1:33 PM.
#891SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Crepe
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
1. I'd like to think that a 2s stun isn't significant enough to matter. It's the opening cheap shot that really hurts tank threat/rage generation, in my opinion. However, it's something I'll look out for. I've still never actually used shadowfury.
If you have a non-rage based tank like a paladin, the stun won't matter nearly as much (or at all, really).

Originally Posted by tdx View Post
How can I easily verify it? Does anyone have a link to a post where testing was done to verify that it adds 9% not 3%?
I think there might have been a post in the PTR discussion about CSD?
#892SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Lovecraft
Originally Posted by Crepe View Post
If you have a non-rage based tank like a paladin, the stun won't matter nearly as much (or at all, really).
Just to nip a quick point in, paladin tanks are inversely affected by stuns on their tank targets as a portion of their threat (especially if it's not their actual target) is reactive damage - Holy Shield, Retribution Aura (if used), and you could argue Reckoning 'up-time'. Obviously SoR/SoV and Consecration are still working, it's analogous to your warrior/feral having rage in the bank.

Minor point and mildy off-topic, but I thought it was worth a mention.
#893SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2LockApologist
Originally Posted by Crepe View Post
If you have a non-rage based tank like a paladin, the stun won't matter nearly as much (or at all, really).
Actually, stuns are bad for paladins as well.

Assuming ~300 +dmg:

A good % of tankadin threat is from Holy shield procs (~500 per block), which obviously don't happen from a stunned mob. Versus ~200 per swing of SoR or up to 200 tick of Consecrate (depending on rank, usually less as max rank is usually too mana intensive for trash).

Having a tanking pally myself, unless I need the mob stunned to reduce damage to make it survivable, I ask they not be stunned, if possible.

Coupled with the number of casters in ZA (as I believe that's what the SF discussion started on), block threat is already low.

This ignores that stunning mobs reduces dmg incoming, increasing the likelihood of OOM (pally form of rage starvation).

Not that you shouldn't use SF, if you've spec'd it. But, the stun is not a benefit of SF, from the tanks perspective.
#894SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by Lianya View Post
Forgive me if this is a forbidden question. I've been reading through this thread, and it's really awesome. The amount of information here is tremendous.

I've been away from the game for a while, but I've started to play (raid) again. The spec I have is NOT the right one (or even a good one), so I've been trying to figure out what makes sense for my level of gear. (Current level is Kara/Gruul/Mag). The guild is currently in SSC/TK, having killed up to Tidewalker and Solarian.

It seems like either Affliction or Demonology. I've been thinking about switching to Demonology; however I don't want to end up with a spec that doesn't help out the guild. The other warlocks in the raid are a bit better geared than I am, due to my absence.

As experts, any info you have would be appreciated, thanks a ton for your time. I'm still reading through the thread, but so far the choice isn't clear to me. Sorry if I missed something, it's a very large thread.

EDIT: Thought I would add some quick stats to help, obviously based on current spec.
Bonus Damage (No Fel Armor): 873
Bonus Damage (Fel Armor): 1003
Hit Rating: 108
Crit Chance: 15.87%
Penetration: 0
Hit Points (No Blood Pact): 9507
Hit Points (Blood Pact): 10578
I would get the leuler spreadsheet and plug in your numbers and then play with the specs and cast rotations. That would give you the definitive answer. Based on where your guild is at, I would say Affliction would be your best bet. Your hit is very low and affliction suffers the least from it. Your spell damage is also low, try getting more through tailoring and gemming etc.

Demo is very viable in SSC and I have reached 1700 dps with it in T5 gear. The problem with Demo is it can outshine all other specs on some fights, but it suffers horibly on others (Azgalor, Archimonde, Najentus, Gurtog) and is vulnerable to accidental pet damage on others (Supremus P2 for one). Since you are not in T6 raids yet, Demo will work for you quite nice too. You will be more impacted by your low hit than if you were affliction, but you will make up for it with the pet and much higher spell damage.
#895SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Gumibear
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Why would an affliction warlock spec into lifedrain/fel concentration over nightfall? Granted nightfall is a small dps increase, but it's a dps increase while lifedrain and fel concentration aren't unless you don't run with healers in your raid...
It has to do with the positioning of the talents. Even with 5/5 Suppression, you'll need to take 1 filler point to get to the 4th tier of Affliction talents. Grim Reach and Empowered Corruption look more appealing than Nightfall to me, and taking 2 points in Nightfall after that doesn't leave enough points to max Shadow Embrace and Malediction. If you only went 17 in Destruction and didn't take Improved Imp, you would have enough points, but I never want to play a build in BT that does not include Intensity, meaning I'd need 19 in Destruction and I'd only have 1 point left over after getting UA. Perhaps if I dropped Dark Pact I could still pick up 2/2 Nightfall without losing any raid utility talents, but a lot of Affliction Warlocks feel more comfortable having a secondary source of mana.
#896SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Lianya
Originally Posted by Gumibear View Post
It has to do with the positioning of the talents. Even with 5/5 Suppression, you'll need to take 1 filler point to get to the 4th tier of Affliction talents. Grim Reach and Empowered Corruption look more appealing than Nightfall to me, and taking 2 points in Nightfall after that doesn't leave enough points to max Shadow Embrace and Malediction. If you only went 17 in Destruction and didn't take Improved Imp, you would have enough points, but I never want to play a build in BT that does not include Intensity, meaning I'd need 19 in Destruction and I'd only have 1 point left over after getting UA. Perhaps if I dropped Dark Pact I could still pick up 2/2 Nightfall without losing any raid utility talents, but a lot of Affliction Warlocks feel more comfortable having a secondary source of mana.

Would you say that Intensity isn't something really needed until BT? I was curious as to why the 'default' Afflication spent in the first thread had 2 points in that, instead of putting them in to something like Shadow Embrace. If you weren't in BT, would you put those points elsewhere?

I also assume that Improved Howl isn't useful to get for PvE. It's _occasionally_ nice, but not something I see a lot of use in for raiding.
#897SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Emolate
Originally Posted by Stran View Post
You will be more impacted by your low hit than if you were affliction, but you will make up for it with the pet and much higher spell damage.
They really do need to do the spreadsheet, or even the Warcrafter Sandbox to model a proposed spec.

I do not agree that they would make up for it with a minion and increased spell damage.

But that hit rating is awful and needs some serious work before moving into Demonology in my opinion. The only Demonology build I would consider would be 0/40/21, and since this person will be missing with their Shadowbolts all the time, I don't see the point. I think being the Malediction Mule for the raid as they gear themselves would be the best route to go.

I had great damage output in 0/40/21, but this is largely because I was hit-capped.

Jimad asked:
Does a fully raid buffed and phase-shifted Imp make any sense whatsoever with this build?
Demonology builds at high-damage gear levels is well served having the Imp out due to the fantastic threat reduction it gives. You can't get 20% threat reduction anywhere else, too bad it takes 10 talent points to get it.
#898SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Shai
Originally Posted by tdx View Post
How can I easily verify it? Does anyone have a link to a post where testing was done to verify that it adds 9% not 3%?
Easy to test yourself. Install Dr. Damage, compare the expected crit values (the mod assumes 209% crits) with your own numbers for a spell like Immolate to see if they match. If they do, the multiplier is correct.
#899SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Lianya
Originally Posted by Emolate View Post
They really do need to do the spreadsheet, or even the Warcrafter Sandbox to model a proposed spec.

I do not agree that they would make up for it with a minion and increased spell damage.

But that hit rating is awful and needs some serious work before moving into Demonology in my opinion. The only Demonology build I would consider would be 0/40/21, and since this person will be missing with their Shadowbolts all the time, I don't see the point. I think being the Malediction Mule for the raid as they gear themselves would be the best route to go.

I had great damage output in 0/40/21, but this is largely because I was hit-capped.

Jimad asked:

Demonology builds at high-damage gear levels is well served having the Imp out due to the fantastic threat reduction it gives. You can't get 20% threat reduction anywhere else, too bad it takes 10 talent points to get it.
I'm coming to the conclusion that I should stay afflication and be the Malediction mule as well. I can improve my +hit by changing out some of my gems. Made some bad choices early on for stupid reasons. The Robe of Oblivion will be replaced very soon with the T4 Robes, as I'm next in line for that, so those gems will dissapear.

Seems like, in the pants, I should get rid of those + crit yellows and put in the + hit ones asap. Once I get enough +hit from pure gear, then I can start re-gemming and looking for more + crit in order to repec.

I do need to switch over to Imp Shadowbolt though, so I'm just trying to iron out a few points. (My last post asks about Intensity vs. Shadow Embrace, etc).

I really appreciate the input. It helps me to understand a lot of things better about my class and how I can be used to help our overall DPS.
#900SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by Lianya View Post
Would you say that Intensity isn't something really needed until BT? I was curious as to why the 'default' Afflication spent in the first thread had 2 points in that, instead of putting them in to something like Shadow Embrace. If you weren't in BT, would you put those points elsewhere?

I also assume that Improved Howl isn't useful to get for PvE. It's _occasionally_ nice, but not something I see a lot of use in for raiding.
Intensity is nice but by no means necessary, even in BT. Prior to BT, if you need to resist pushback, you would likely be casting seed anyways. I can think of very few fights where intensity would help (boss fights that is) Kara has a number of them (Prince, Netherspite, Imp tanking, Curator, Shade), SSC has only one where it truly helps, and that marginaly, which is Vashj. TK has Solarian (marginal again, only when being arcane missiled) and MH has none. If you are the tank warlock, it also helps on Capernian and Leo for TPS.

A lot of other bosses let you utilize the talent at times, but it's not that much of a benefit.
#901SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by Lianya View Post
I'm coming to the conclusion that I should stay afflication and be the Malediction mule as well. I can improve my +hit by changing out some of my gems. Made some bad choices early on for stupid reasons. The Robe of Oblivion will be replaced very soon with the T4 Robes, as I'm next in line for that, so those gems will dissapear.

Seems like, in the pants, I should get rid of those + crit yellows and put in the + hit ones asap. Once I get enough +hit from pure gear, then I can start re-gemming and looking for more + crit in order to repec.

I do need to switch over to Imp Shadowbolt though, so I'm just trying to iron out a few points. (My last post asks about Intensity vs. Shadow Embrace, etc).

I really appreciate the input. It helps me to understand a lot of things better about my class and how I can be used to help our overall DPS.
Unless your hit is maxed I wouldn't even consider crit, no mater the spec. Do keep in mind raid composition maters to some degree. If you can guarantee an elemental shaman in your group most raids, 12% hit is good enough. 15% is good enough if you can guarantee a draenai priest, mage or shaman.
#902SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Emolate
Originally Posted by Lianya View Post
I'm coming to the conclusion that I should stay afflication and be the Malediction mule as well. I can improve my +hit by changing out some of my gems. Made some bad choices early on for stupid reasons. The Robe of Oblivion will be replaced very soon with the T4 Robes, as I'm next in line for that, so those gems will dissapear.

Seems like, in the pants, I should get rid of those + crit yellows and put in the + hit ones asap. Once I get enough +hit from pure gear, then I can start re-gemming and looking for more + crit in order to repec.

I do need to switch over to Imp Shadowbolt though, so I'm just trying to iron out a few points. (My last post asks about Intensity vs. Shadow Embrace, etc).

I really appreciate the input. It helps me to understand a lot of things better about my class and how I can be used to help our overall DPS.
Most warlocks were at some point in a similar situation to yours.

Going to +crit gems is silly as Affliction, as +spellhit and +spelldamage gems are far better off for you.

You need Improved Shadowbolt, Bane, and Destructive Reach.

You need to build out your Frozen Shadoweave set, ASAP. The T4 robe is nothing special, in fact, the only T4 piece I ever wear (check my armory) is the shoulders, and my guild is in TK now and it is only a matter of time before I can upgrade those shoulders, too.

Check out how I am gemmed and my gear. You can have almost all of it crafted or pick it up in Karazhan or a couple of Heroics. The Scryer's Bloodgem is a Revered rep item, you should try get that. If you are Exalted with CE, get Ashlyn's Gift, etc. Focus on that +spellhit first and foremost. Be the CoS/CoE mule, use UA, Corruption, Immolate and Shadowbolts.

The Terrokar Tablet of Vim is a stupidly easy trinket to get with spelldamage, a Use damage boost, *and* a spellhit bonus. It is probably one of the most under-appreciated trinkets in the game for new raiding warlocks. Once you start really building up your +spellhit rating, you can start to take points out of Suppression.

Spend a little bit of time, and seriously, if the spreadsheets are a pain in the ass for you (and they can be), warcrafter.net's sandbox is a great way to get some modeling time done in a much nicer way in their Sandbox, though the talent tree data isn't 100% accurate it will let you do gear swaps/modifications all day long with a great degree of certainty.

If you're Malediction, when reviewing the WWS, remember your role in the DPS of the Mages and Shadowpriests as well as your fellow Warlocks. You are a very valuable contributor to any raid's success with that talent. (I would strongly recommend looking at Shadow Embrace too, even if you have to wait until you can start pulling some stats out of Suppression.)

But seriously start looking at Frozen Shadoweave and Spellstrike gear -- the only piece I use of T4 are those shoulders just because everything else I have is better, and all I needed was a tailor, an enchanter, and a gemcutter.

Last edited by Emolate : 01/11/08 at 2:29 PM. Reason: s/wowcrafter/warcrafter - sorry, thanks for the heads-up
#903SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Lianya
Originally Posted by Stran View Post
Intensity is nice but by no means necessary, even in BT. Prior to BT, if you need to resist pushback, you would likely be casting seed anyways. I can think of very few fights where intensity would help (boss fights that is) Kara has a number of them (Prince, Netherspite, Imp tanking, Curator, Shade), SSC has only one where it truly helps, and that marginaly, which is Vashj. TK has Solarian (marginal again, only when being arcane missiled) and MH has none. If you are the tank warlock, it also helps on Capernian and Leo for TPS.

A lot of other bosses let you utilize the talent at times, but it's not that much of a benefit.
Awesome. I *think* this is what I need to do:

Spec:
Use the default Affliction spec (see Post #1) with this variant:
Drop 2/2 Intensity
Move the 2 Intensity points in to either Shadow Embrace (4/5) or remove Shadow Embrace completely and put them in to 3/3 IMP 1/2 Healthstone (Curious as to thoughts on that)


Gear:
Change my wand back to Tirisfal Wand of Ascendancy (+hit instead of +crit)
Change yellow games in pants from +crit to +hit gems
Either change gems in Robe of Oblivion to +hit or +spell damage, but get the +stam out (Or remove robe entirely)

Does that make sense? I'm interested in opinions on the blue text above, those talent points.
#904SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Emolate
I didn't notice you had the trial-fire pants. Compare those to how you could gem and enchant Spellstrike pants. Make the decision.

Go with Veiled Noble Topaz wherever you can, if you can do them in 2's you're better off than doing a dedicated +hit and +dmg gem. You will get one more point of damage (10 instead of 9) and the same amount of +spellhit you would with the +8 spellhit gem.

I do Intensity because it can come in handy soloing and questing. I pretty much always farm in my raid spec (PVE server). Intensity doesn't hurt to have and I would miss it more than I would miss the other two bullshit talents in the Destruction tree I could use to pad myself out to Ruin.

If you aren't going to Ruin, drop Intensity, IMO. And at your gear level, you should ignore Ruin anyway.

Destructive Reach and Bane are the most important things in Destruction for you right now.

Edit: I recommend putting points into Improved Healthstone depending on the rest of your raiding locks. I am probably dropping mine down to 1/2 because another lock is 2/2 and the other two are 0/2. But since we are probably going to start rotations on TK so we aren't stacked on warlocks, I may as well leave it 2/2. Even if I have the other 2/2 Lock with me, that is 20 big healthstones without waiting for cooldowns.
#905SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Lianya
Originally Posted by Emolate View Post
Edit: I recommend putting points into Improved Healthstone depending on the rest of your raiding locks. I am probably dropping mine down to 1/2 because another lock is 2/2 and the other two are 0/2. But since we are probably going to start rotations on TK so we aren't stacked on warlocks, I may as well leave it 2/2. Even if I have the other 2/2 Lock with me, that is 20 big healthstones without waiting for cooldowns.
Currently all our raiding locks have 2/2 in the HS, however only 2 of us have been showing up consistantly, so I'm torn on that. It would be nice to drop to 1/2, so we have 2 versions, but like you point out, if there are only 2 of us total in the raid, that's sucky for a lot of people. I think I'll try 1/2 for now, and put the other 3 in to the IMP, unless Shadow Embrace makes more sense.
#906SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by Lianya View Post
Awesome. I *think* this is what I need to do:

Spec:
Use the default Affliction spec (see Post #1) with this variant:
Drop 2/2 Intensity
Move the 2 Intensity points in to either Shadow Embrace (4/5) or remove Shadow Embrace completely and put them in to 3/3 IMP 1/2 Healthstone (Curious as to thoughts on that)


Gear:
Change my wand back to Tirisfal Wand of Ascendancy (+hit instead of +crit)
Change yellow games in pants from +crit to +hit gems
Either change gems in Robe of Oblivion to +hit or +spell damage, but get the +stam out (Or remove robe entirely)

Does that make sense? I'm interested in opinions on the blue text above, those talent points.
I have always considered 3 points into imp somewhat of a waste (high mobility fights etc). SE will help your tank out far more as it can be considered a direct 5% boost on the tank's hitpoints.

As far as gear, get more hit. Going tailoring and getting spell strike + FSW is something I would have recomended before. But if you have a T5 guild, you are likely to be getting gear fairly soon. I suggest to concentrate on your utility to the guild and wait for the gear to come in.

Also, I have seen warlocks increase their DPS by about 30% through changes in their rotations, mods etc, without changing a single piece of gear. Make sure you do things right, and at the right time. The gear will come.
#907SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Lianya
Originally Posted by Stran View Post
I have always considered 3 points into imp somewhat of a waste (high mobility fights etc). SE will help your tank out far more as it can be considered a direct 5% boost on the tank's hitpoints.

As far as gear, get more hit. Going tailoring and getting spell strike + FSW is something I would have recomended before. But if you have a T5 guild, you are likely to be getting gear fairly soon. I suggest to concentrate on your utility to the guild and wait for the gear to come in.

Also, I have seen warlocks increase their DPS by about 30% through changes in their rotations, mods etc, without changing a single piece of gear. Make sure you do things right, and at the right time. The gear will come.
I'm seeing the same thing. I'm the least geared Warlock in the guild/raid (and not a tailor, which means to get those sets I have to level that... which makes me want to cry), but yet I've been the top DPS on many of the fights. Since my gems/gear/spec is pretty terrible right now, that means we are doing something wrong.

I'm trying to fix my stuff up, and reading this board will help me a lot to guide the other locks. For me, I imagine the spell rotation I want to use is:

CoS --> UA --> Corr --> Immolate --> Shadow Bolt until DoT refresh needed. (No Siphon Life, unless I'll take periodic damage)

I saw somewhere in this thread something about not casting Immolate at that time do to the GCD from Corruption. Is there a better order? I'm trying to figure out how the GCD affects these rotations and how I should deal with it.
#908SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Spline
Here's a question I tried to answer: When is 4 piece Tier 5 better than 4 piece Tier 6?

I'll narrow the question down by using a 0/21/40 build, and focus on the Head, Shoulder, Leg, and Glove pieces. I'll use my current gear level, which is mid T5-T6. I'll cast nothing but Shadowbolt and Life Tap.

First, I found out what stats I lose by downgrading from T6 to T5. I used Rare gems for convenience. I put Runed Living Ruby wherever I couldn't get more DPS stats though a socket bonus. Difference: 33 Hit, 13 Crit, 39 Spell Damage

Using Leulier's spreadsheet, I'll equate this to 83 spell damage, or a difference of 67 dps due to stats. Since wearing T6 puts me up to 1555dps, the 4 piece bonus for T6 adds 90dps on top of this. Now, let's see what it takes for 4T5 to be worth 157dps. In its current state, 4T5 is bugged, and doesn't take the bonus spell damage of the affected Corruption into account. We'll ignore this for now.

With each Shadowbolt hit, 4t5 increases the damage of any Corruptions on the target by 10%. This damage bonus stacks additively. It's not unreasonable to expect 6 Shadowbolt hits through the duration. If the first Shadowbolt hits before the first tick, we get this list of multipliers for each tick: (110%, 120%, 130%, 140%, 150%, 160%). This gives an average of 135% per tick, or boosting the entire corruption by 135%. If the first tick goes off before recieving a shadowbolt, the average goes down to 125%. Let's say 130%.

My destruction-spec corruption does 4500 damage over 18 seconds. 30% of this is 1350 damage, or 75 damage per second. I'll fudge-factor this down to 60 damage per second, saying that I'll have to life tap at some point, there will be gaps between corruptions, etc etc.

So, I'll need at least 3 corruptions on the target, plus a fully functioning 4-set bonus, in order for 4T5 to be as good as 4T6. I apologize for all the hand-waving, and welcome any corrections or criticisms.

Last edited by Spline : 01/10/08 at 4:09 PM.
#909SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2PSGarak
Immolate is a difficult spell to model properly. For example, at my gear level (350 more shadow than fire damage) it's still more damage per cast time than shadowbolt, but it results in a dps decrease in the asymptotic case because it costs more mana and the extra time spent lifetapping means I do less damage. The biggest problem with using immolate, especially as an affliction warlock, is clipping your DoT cycle. Never refresh immolate if there is another DoT that needs refreshing instead. UA->Cor->immo will lead to immo and UA needing refreshing at the same time but that's a one-time thing that will be corrected on the next DoT cycle and re-emerge periodically no matter what you do.

As far as imp healthstone, if I were in your situation (everyone else is 2/2) I would go 0/2 instead of 1/2. The important thing is just having them, the extra heal from the talent isn't really that great. I'm sure there's somewhere else in the affliction tree that's a better home for that lonely talent point.
#910SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Silverstorm
Originally Posted by Lianya View Post
Currently all our raiding locks have 2/2 in the HS, however only 2 of us have been showing up consistantly, so I'm torn on that. It would be nice to drop to 1/2, so we have 2 versions, but like you point out, if there are only 2 of us total in the raid, that's sucky for a lot of people. I think I'll try 1/2 for now, and put the other 3 in to the IMP, unless Shadow Embrace makes more sense.
I would coordinate the healthstones with the other locks. Also, drop the soulwell periodically during trash. A couple of soulwells on the way to the boss will let the cooldown timer tick while you clear the next two trash packs. Then drop it again, clear two more packs. By the time you're engaging the boss, everyone should have all the ranks needed/wanted/available. This doesn't work so well coming back after a wipe, but most wipes don't last long enough to use all your healthstones (unless you're the tank) anyway.
#911SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Spline View Post
Here's a question I tried to answer: When is 4 piece Tier 5 better than 4 piece Tier 6?

I'll narrow the question down by using a 0/21/40 build, and focus on the Head, Shoulder, Leg, and Glove pieces. I'll use my current gear level, which is mid T5-T6. I'll cast nothing but Shadowbolt and Life Tap.
for reference:
[Hood of the Corruptor] Tier 5
[Hood of the Malefic] Tier 6

I believe it's only your own corruption, and it's only the base damage (900) you're boosting for the remaining tics.

Unless I'm wrong about that, the answer is "never ever".

Last edited by Arelenda : 01/10/08 at 4:35 PM.
#912SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Silverstorm
Originally Posted by Stran View Post
I have always considered 3 points into imp somewhat of a waste (high mobility fights etc). SE will help your tank out far more as it can be considered a direct 5% boost on the tank's hitpoints.

As far as gear, get more hit. Going tailoring and getting spell strike + FSW is something I would have recomended before. But if you have a T5 guild, you are likely to be getting gear fairly soon. I suggest to concentrate on your utility to the guild and wait for the gear to come in.

Also, I have seen warlocks increase their DPS by about 30% through changes in their rotations, mods etc, without changing a single piece of gear. Make sure you do things right, and at the right time. The gear will come.
Stran, in these high mobility fights, does the tank still have the imp parked next to him? There are very few fights where the tank will have to move significantly during a boss encounter. The fully talented Imp provides 91 Stamina, which is enhanced by Kings to be just over 100. That's also a direct 5% increase to the tank's health (assuming health around 19-20k).

If the tank has the imp already, the additional 23.1 Stamina is certainly not as helpful as 5/5 SE.
#913SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Lianya
Originally Posted by Silverstorm View Post
I would coordinate the healthstones with the other locks. Also, drop the soulwell periodically during trash. A couple of soulwells on the way to the boss will let the cooldown timer tick while you clear the next two trash packs. Then drop it again, clear two more packs. By the time you're engaging the boss, everyone should have all the ranks needed/wanted/available. This doesn't work so well coming back after a wipe, but most wipes don't last long enough to use all your healthstones (unless you're the tank) anyway.
Yeah, I thought about that and that's what I did. I forgot the default spec wasn't maxing out Suppression, which I think I still need for now, so I put 3 of the points there. Since I had 1 left over, for now I stuck it in Shadowburn, instead of putting 1/5 in Shadow Embrace. That may not have been the ideal thing, but as I get a bit more +hit I'll revisit and change up.

Also sticking in some cheap +hit gems for now, getting rid of the +crit stuff. I'll be working on getting those upgraded as well to the Veiled Noble Topaz. I hope I can replace that Robe soon, and get the Mindblade from Kara. That will help out in the DPS department a lot.

Thanks a ton for all your help (everybody who responded). Really helped me to figure out what I should be doing.

Edit:
Here's the Sandbox Link to her. Neat site. 70 Gnome Warlock

Last edited by Lianya : 01/10/08 at 4:35 PM.
#914SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by Silverstorm View Post
Stran, in these high mobility fights, does the tank still have the imp parked next to him? There are very few fights where the tank will have to move significantly during a boss encounter. The fully talented Imp provides 91 Stamina, which is enhanced by Kings to be just over 100. That's also a direct 5% increase to the tank's health (assuming health around 19-20k).

If the tank has the imp already, the additional 23.1 Stamina is certainly not as helpful as 5/5 SE.
SE does not exclude Bloodpact. It only excludes telented bloodpact. So you can have untalented imp + SE, which is better than just talented Imp.
#915SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2 tdx
Originally Posted by Shai View Post
Easy to test yourself. Install Dr. Damage, compare the expected crit values (the mod assumes 209% crits) with your own numbers for a spell like Immolate to see if they match. If they do, the multiplier is correct.
So I bit the bullet and actually tested it. With 1241 fire damage DR damage reported that my max crit should be 1888. I calculated that if the crit modifier was 3% my max crit would be 1833, so anything between the two would mean the modifier is at least above 3%.

Well my first cast was a 1886 crit. I spammed two mana bars worth of searing pain on DR Boom and couldn't get anything higher, so CSD does in fact increase your crit modifier by 9%.
#916SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Spline
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
for reference:
[Hood of the Corruptor] Tier 5
[Hood of the Malefic] Tier 6

I believe it's only your own corruption, and it's only the base damage (900) you're boosting for the remaining tics.

Unless I'm wrong about that, the answer is "never ever".
I just confirmed that it's only your own corruption.

But you know, if it ever did boost others' corruptions, and take spell damage into account...
#917SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Arelenda
Originally Posted by Spline View Post
I just confirmed that it's only your own corruption.

But you know, if it ever did boost others' corruptions, and take spell damage into account...
It is very unclear on the set bonuses, and not many people have 4p T5. Can anyone confirm that it works as I stated? I'd like to add it to the compendium.

I thought it buffed your active corruption by 10% of the base, so 90 damage over all tics. If this is true, then one SB would boost an untalented corruption by 15 per tic for the remaining tics.
#918SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
It is very unclear on the set bonuses, and not many people have 4p T5. Can anyone confirm that it works as I stated? I'd like to add it to the compendium.

I thought it buffed your active corruption by 10% of the base, so 90 damage over all tics. If this is true, then one SB would boost an untalented corruption by 15 per tic for the remaining tics.
It stacks indefinitely. For the duration of your corruption that is Each Sb boosts the BASE damage of YOUR corruption by 10%. All consequent hits of that corruption will gain the cumulative increase in damage. I will run the numbers tonight and post logs.
#919SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2dotcow
Hi,

I am currently specced 0/21/40 with 5 points in improved immolate and 5 in emberstorm. My stats are 1400 shadow damage, about 1300 or so fire damage, capped hit, 16% crit without counting talents and about 5% haste (buffed). My question is, is immolate still an important factor in my dps on boss fights as well as trash? We usually have 2-3 fire mages btw. Also is there anything I should switch around as far as stats are concerned? I can't link armory cuz I'm on my iPhone but its dotcow on us destromath if you want to take a look. Thanks
#920SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Arelenda
Originally Posted by dotcow View Post
Hi,

I am currently specced 0/21/40 with 5 points in improved immolate and 5 in emberstorm. My stats are 1400 shadow damage, about 1300 or so fire damage, capped hit, 16% crit without counting talents and about 5% haste (buffed). My question is, is immolate still an important factor in my dps on boss fights as well as trash? We usually have 2-3 fire mages btw. Also is there anything I should switch around as far as stats are concerned? I can't link armory cuz I'm on my iPhone but its dotcow on us destromath if you want to take a look. Thanks
I'd say no. Want numbers? Use Leulier's spreadsheet to find out. Or ShadowSeer. Or DrDamage. All linked in the compendium.
#921SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Experiment
Originally Posted by Emolate View Post
Spend a little bit of time, and seriously, if the spreadsheets are a pain in the ass for you (and they can be), WoWCrafter.net is a great way to get some modeling time done in a much nicer way in their Sandbox, though the talent tree data isn't 100% accurate it will let you do gear swaps/modifications all day long with a great degree of certainty.
Hi, I just wanted to point out something from above for a moment.

Emolate mentioned WoWCrafter.net, and it was completely new to me so I had to track it down. I did manage to find the site itself, which had a different name and URL then I gathered from this quick bit of information.

It's Warcrafter.net ...If I found the right thing anyway.

Thank you very much for the passing mention. It looks like a very useful site for gear and spec planning.
#922SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Breii
Originally Posted by Lianya View Post
For me, I imagine the spell rotation I want to use is:

CoS --> UA --> Corr --> Immolate --> Shadow Bolt until DoT refresh needed. (No Siphon Life, unless I'll take periodic damage)

I saw somewhere in this thread something about not casting Immolate at that time do to the GCD from Corruption. Is there a better order? I'm trying to figure out how the GCD affects these rotations and how I should deal with it.
You'll want to stick Siphon Life in there as long as you're sure it'll last its duration (ie Boss fights, long trash pulls etc). While its damage looks pretty mediocre, its damage-per-cast-time is actually a lot higher than Shadowbolt (with my gear, which is similar to yours). I'd imagine this remains true even as you hit cap and start building crit, but a few runs through the spreadsheet could answer that fairly easily. It is also one of our most mana efficient spells, which is a nice bonus.
#923SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Crepe
Originally Posted by Lianya View Post
I'm seeing the same thing. I'm the least geared Warlock in the guild/raid (and not a tailor, which means to get those sets I have to level that... which makes me want to cry), but yet I've been the top DPS on many of the fights. Since my gems/gear/spec is pretty terrible right now, that means we are doing something wrong.
Ouch, you don't have FSW and you're still out DPSing them? They are clearly doing something wrong, then.

As for tailoring, it's probably one of the cheapest and easiest professions to level. If you've got decent cash on hand (around 2-3k), you probably can power level it to 375 without much trouble and still have a lot left for shadowcloth, spellcloth, and primal mights. You'll need thousands of netherweave cloth, but its price should be around 3g/stack (or cheaper if people are stupid, which is common). I spent probably around 3-4k about 9 months ago to get full FSW/Spellstrike from 0 tailoring; the bulk of that was the shadowcloth/primal might cost. Additionally, netherweave was anywhere between 4g to 6g a stack then. Shadowcloth prices were also about double.

YMMV, of course, depending on your server's economy (ER is large, release server with a huge "casual" population, which drives prices down).
#924SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by Crepe View Post
Ouch, you don't have FSW and you're still out DPSing them? They are clearly doing something wrong, then.

As for tailoring, it's probably one of the cheapest and easiest professions to level. If you've got decent cash on hand (around 2-3k), you probably can power level it to 375 without much trouble and still have a lot left for shadowcloth, spellcloth, and primal mights. You'll need thousands of netherweave cloth, but its price should be around 3g/stack (or cheaper if people are stupid, which is common). I spent probably around 3-4k about 9 months ago to get full FSW/Spellstrike from 0 tailoring; the bulk of that was the shadowcloth/primal might cost. Additionally, netherweave was anywhere between 4g to 6g a stack then. Shadowcloth prices were also about double.

YMMV, of course, depending on your server's economy (ER is large, release server with a huge "casual" population, which drives prices down).
Like I said, I would have recommended this before, while his guild was progressing through content with worse or similar gear. FSW gets replaced with T5 gear (unless you are a shadowpriest I suppose) so instead of blowing all that gold, he could maximize his utility and slowly up the DPS as the gear comes rolling in. Spending 3k gold on gear that could potentially get upgraded in a few weeks would be silly imo.
#925SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Emolate
Originally Posted by Experiment View Post
Hi, I just wanted to point out something from above for a moment.

It's Warcrafter.net ...If I found the right thing anyway.

Thank you very much for the passing mention. It looks like a very useful site for gear and spec planning.
Good find -- sorry for the confusion. It is warcrafter.net, and I have fixed it above. I cannot tell you how useful the warcrafter Sandbox function is. It has given me back hours of gametime due it to being so easy to model new gems, plan for gear acquisitions, and fine-tune my raiding spec.

Thanks for giving the proper information, sorry for any confusion it may have caused. It will probably be a very valuable tool for any raiding Warlock.
#926SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2taybul
Originally Posted by dotcow View Post
Hi,

I am currently specced 0/21/40 with 5 points in improved immolate and 5 in emberstorm. My stats are 1400 shadow damage, about 1300 or so fire damage, capped hit, 16% crit without counting talents and about 5% haste (buffed). My question is, is immolate still an important factor in my dps on boss fights as well as trash? We usually have 2-3 fire mages btw. Also is there anything I should switch around as far as stats are concerned? I can't link armory cuz I'm on my iPhone but its dotcow on us destromath if you want to take a look. Thanks
Your crit is still pretty low for destro so you probably do want to keep immolate up. When you break about 20% (25% with talent) crit you might want to stop using it since the chance for proc'ing ISB increases and immolate won't benefit from it at all. You'll start overlapping ISB procs and eventually have it up constantly boosting other shadow users' dps as well as your own even further.

End game destro locks don't even invest that many points in fire talents but rather put them in nether prot and/or soul leech.
#927SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Necrostar
Originally Posted by taybul View Post
Your crit is still pretty low for destro so you probably do want to keep immolate up. When you break about 20% (25% with talent) crit you might want to stop using it since the chance for proc'ing ISB increases and immolate won't benefit from it at all. You'll start overlapping ISB procs and eventually have it up constantly boosting other shadow users' dps as well as your own even further.

End game destro locks don't even invest that many points in fire talents but rather put them in nether prot and/or soul leech.
I dodge all the fire related talents in my 0/21/40 build. I actually go 5/5 Cataclysm , 4/5 Aftermath , 2/3 Soul Leech & of course all the other standard Destro talents people take with this build. (Max ISB , Bane , Devastation , Ruin , Backlash , SnF) Since all I'm doing is casting shadowbolts there is no need to invest anything into fire. May as well reduce some mana , chance to stun trash , and less stress on healers.

Also another build I wanted to bring up which most remember is the old SM/Ruin. In my Kara/Gruul/Mag days I was a UA lock , but discovered I was obtaining more crit , hit , with = spell damage in the early stages of T5 content. I believe at this point Ruin > UA. I did something like a Dark Pact + Contagion + Ruin build which worked very effectively (36/4/21). I didn't feel quite ready to make the 0/21/40 jump since I was more like 150 hit / 22% crit. I feel it's a very viable build until your at 0/21/40 level gear which IMO is max hit / 25% crit minimum with talents.
#928SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2galzohar
How many people in BT/hyjal actually have their T5 chest/head... Even if you can make it to vashj/kael with subpar dps, you'll probably move on and stop running them way before everyone have their T5 tokens. Not to mention there are no T5 boots at all. Getting FSW and spellstrike is the minimum of the minimum effort I would expect from a serious raider.
#929SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Spline
Let me tell you about my fire talents...

I take 5/5 Emberstorm and 3/3 Searing Pain for tanking. I take 0/3 Nether Protection for the same reason. I take 0/3 Soul Leech because when I'm not tanking, I don't need the extra threat from the heals. I take 2/2 Pyroclasm because stunning things never gets old.

I cast Hellfire on Hyjal trash. Constantly.
#930SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by Necrostar View Post
I dodge all the fire related talents in my 0/21/40 build. I actually go 5/5 Cataclysm , 4/5 Aftermath , 2/3 Soul Leech & of course all the other standard Destro talents people take with this build. (Max ISB , Bane , Devastation , Ruin , Backlash , SnF) Since all I'm doing is casting shadowbolts there is no need to invest anything into fire. May as well reduce some mana , chance to stun trash , and less stress on healers.

Also another build I wanted to bring up which most remember is the old SM/Ruin. In my Kara/Gruul/Mag days I was a UA lock , but discovered I was obtaining more crit , hit , with = spell damage in the early stages of T5 content. I believe at this point Ruin > UA. I did something like a Dark Pact + Contagion + Ruin build which worked very effectively (36/4/21). I didn't feel quite ready to make the 0/21/40 jump since I was more like 150 hit / 22% crit. I feel it's a very viable build until your at 0/21/40 level gear which IMO is max hit / 25% crit minimum with talents.
May I sugest going 3/3 Nether Protection? I take 0 in Aftermath as it's fairly useless in pve and marginal in pvp (and I never pvp in 21/40). I pick up 1 in Imp SP just for filler, as I do use SP in raids (Tanking frost wyrms etc) 3/3 in Nether protection have saved me in raids before.

I'll name some fights on top of my head where it helps:

MH Trash (marginal utility but has prevented some damage at least)
Anatheron (Infernal and Swarm are both covered under it. Obviously only works for swarm if infernal procs it. I THINK sleep is also shadow)
Azgalor (Rain of fire, not that you should ever be hit by it.)
Archimonde (Fear, Grip and Doomfire can all proc it) I've had fear proc it and run me through a doom fire unharmed. I've had a grip proc it and cause 0 damage for 4 ticks before my slow decurser got to me :P

BT: First true benefit was on Terron. Last kill it proced 15 times in a 5 minute fight.

Haven't been past here but I assume it could be usefull on RoS, Mother and Illidan.

Anyways, marginal utility but far better than 4/5 Aftermath IMO.
#931SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Stran
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
How many people in BT/hyjal actually have their T5 chest/head... Even if you can make it to vashj/kael with subpar dps, you'll probably move on and stop running them way before everyone have their T5 tokens. Not to mention there are no T5 boots at all. Getting FSW and spellstrike is the minimum of the minimum effort I would expect from a serious raider.
You do not need to be a tailor to have spellstrike. The bonus helps but is doable without. That covers helm. Also tinkering offers a better one, as does Fel reaver. Vashj and Kael drop a robe better than FSW, and I even wore Hydross robe prior to T5. Boots of Shifting Nightmare are IMO superior to FSW as they let you move to Destro. T6 also offers a number of easy to get good options (Blue Suede, Naj boots). And most guilds have T5 pants on majority of members before seeing T6. I have not worn my FWS since early SSC, with only the robe sticking around for a longer amount of time. And while the robe would be better than whats readily available, is that single upgrade worth 3k gold investment this late in progression? Likely not.

Even T4 robe, with an extra slot, it is 21 spell damage lacking compared to FSW. But it has 13 hit rating which equates to 17 spell damage according to my calculations. Is 4 damage worth the time and money necesary to invest in FSW when it will soon be replaced? Likely not. And if the robe is what gives you the 4pc or 2 pc bonus, all of a suden it is even better.

Robe of Hatefull Echoes closes the gap even further, although it has crit instead of hit so it's non-damage bonus is much more build dependent.

Last edited by Stran : 01/11/08 at 5:01 PM.
#932SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Necrostar
Originally Posted by Stran View Post
May I sugest going 3/3 Nether Protection? I take 0 in Aftermath as it's fairly useless in pve and marginal in pvp (and I never pvp in 21/40). I pick up 1 in Imp SP just for filler, as I do use SP in raids (Tanking frost wyrms etc) 3/3 in Nether protection have saved me in raids before.

I'll name some fights on top of my head where it helps:

MH Trash (marginal utility but has prevented some damage at least)
Anatheron (Infernal and Swarm are both covered under it. Obviously only works for swarm if infernal procs it. I THINK sleep is also shadow)
Azgalor (Rain of fire, not that you should ever be hit by it.)
Archimonde (Fear, Grip and Doomfire can all proc it) I've had fear proc it and run me through a doom fire unharmed. I've had a grip proc it and cause 0 damage for 4 ticks before my slow decurser got to me :P

BT: First true benefit was on Terron. Last kill it proced 15 times in a 5 minute fight.

Haven't been past here but I assume it could be usefull on RoS, Mother and Illidan.

Anyways, marginal utility but far better than 4/5 Aftermath IMO.
Your naming fights I have yet to do =] , My guild is 3/4 TK , 4/6 SSC . Just started working on Fathom-lord & of course still have yet to do Kael / Vashj. But, reading up on BT/Hyjal I can see where NP can be effective.
#933SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Suggestive
Originally Posted by Stran View Post
May I sugest going 3/3 Nether Protection? I take 0 in Aftermath as it's fairly useless in pve and marginal in pvp (and I never pvp in 21/40). I pick up 1 in Imp SP just for filler, as I do use SP in raids (Tanking frost wyrms etc) 3/3 in Nether protection have saved me in raids before.

I'll name some fights on top of my head where it helps:

MH Trash (marginal utility but has prevented some damage at least)
Anatheron (Infernal and Swarm are both covered under it. Obviously only works for swarm if infernal procs it. I THINK sleep is also shadow)
Azgalor (Rain of fire, not that you should ever be hit by it.)
Archimonde (Fear, Grip and Doomfire can all proc it) I've had fear proc it and run me through a doom fire unharmed. I've had a grip proc it and cause 0 damage for 4 ticks before my slow decurser got to me :P

BT: First true benefit was on Terron. Last kill it proced 15 times in a 5 minute fight.

Haven't been past here but I assume it could be usefull on RoS, Mother and Illidan.

Anyways, marginal utility but far better than 4/5 Aftermath IMO.
If he's tanking, he doesn't want nether protection. Those points are a matter of choice, there really is no wrong place to put them in my opinion.
#934SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by Suggestive View Post
If he's tanking, he doesn't want nether protection. Those points are a matter of choice, there really is no wrong place to put them in my opinion.
For tanking fights I go demo anyways but I do agree. While a /cancelaura on your SP macro helps a ton, it's still not optimal and trying to tank capernian with NP resulted in a quick run to Ironforge for a respec. However, all points are a matter of choice and I'm just providing some evidence that given you are not tanking, NP is better for raiding locks than 4/5 aftermath.
#935SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2clavarnway
What is the opinion on Boots of Blasting vs FSW Boots for Destruction? Destro scales so damn well with +damage, they are pretty darn good even for Destro. Currently I have FSW with 2 Veiled Noble Topaz.
#936SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Necrostar
Originally Posted by clavarnway View Post
What is the opinion on Boots of Blasting vs FSW Boots for Destruction? Destro scales so damn well with +damage, they are pretty darn good even for Destro. Currently I have FSW with 2 Veiled Noble Topaz.
Boots of Shifting Nightmare > Boots of Blasting > FSW Boots , IMO

If you have the crit then go Shifting Nightmare. Basically your giving up 25 crit for 20 spell damage with a stam boost. FSW has great spell power, but rather weak stats - so weak I'd have to pass. No substantial hit or crit either.
#937SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2taybul
Originally Posted by clavarnway View Post
What is the opinion on Boots of Blasting vs FSW Boots for Destruction? Destro scales so damn well with +damage, they are pretty darn good even for Destro. Currently I have FSW with 2 Veiled Noble Topaz.
Hit is more important to you in the end and even if you can socket the FSW boots you should still go for blasting if nothing else, for the crit the FSW lacks.
#938SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by clavarnway View Post
What is the opinion on Boots of Blasting vs FSW Boots for Destruction? Destro scales so damn well with +damage, they are pretty darn good even for Destro. Currently I have FSW with 2 Veiled Noble Topaz.
They are very comparable. I chose blasting as my hit was lacking at the time, and the added crit helped ISB uptime. But both are solid choices.
#939SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Silverstorm
Originally Posted by Breii View Post
You'll want to stick Siphon Life in there as long as you're sure it'll last its duration (ie Boss fights, long trash pulls etc). While its damage looks pretty mediocre, its damage-per-cast-time is actually a lot higher than Shadowbolt (with my gear, which is similar to yours). I'd imagine this remains true even as you hit cap and start building crit, but a few runs through the spreadsheet could answer that fairly easily. It is also one of our most mana efficient spells, which is a nice bonus.
Not to mention the self-healing, which should easily cover any lifetaps you need. This is fight-dependent, of course. Mine generally ticks between 300 and 350 on a boss, dealing 3000-3500 damage over 30 seconds. For a cast time of 1.5 seconds, that's 2000-2333 DPCT. Shadowbolts would have to regularly hit for 5000-5833 to match that (and Affliction shadowbolts just won't).
#940SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2doogless
If you're hit capped without your boot slot, FSW are better than Shifting Nightmare. In that same situation, I'd place FSW with 2 12 damage gems (81 total damage) over Boots of Blasting (39 damage and 25 crit). Obviously it depends on your other gear and how much spell hit rating the rest of your stuff has.
#941SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Necrostar
Originally Posted by doogless View Post
If you're hit capped without your boot slot, FSW are better than Shifting Nightmare. In that same situation, I'd place FSW with 2 12 damage gems (81 total damage) over Boots of Blasting (39 damage and 25 crit). Obviously it depends on your other gear and how much spell hit rating the rest of your stuff has.
260 HP / 195 Mana / 18 Hit > 22 Spell Damage (even less if you have no access to BT gems)

I'd rather lose hit on another piece. You just get too good a itemization on Shifting Nightmare.
#942SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2galzohar
Remember that even pre-T6, capping hit via gems is not hard if your other gear doesn't totally suck (like, you have stuff like CE exalted ring, aran wand, arena weapon etc). Once capped, assuming you're using 5 dmg 4 hit gems to reach that cap, gaining 4 hit rating on an item means 1 of those 5 dmg 4 hit gems can turn into a 9 dmg gem providing extra 4 spell dmg. This is far lower than the "I'm not hitcapped" spell dmg equivalent of hit, and is a more realistic way to look at it, as you *should* be hit capped even in pre-raid gear via gems. Even if your hit sucks so bad that you need 8 hit gems in gear to cap hit, you still only gain 5 dmg by gaining 4 hit from an item, still lower than your 1.3 dmg equivalent for 1 hit rating. The higher your gear level is the even worse hit rating becomes as you have more and better options you can use to cap hit.
#943SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Krazen
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Remember that even pre-T6, capping hit via gems is not hard if your other gear doesn't totally suck (like, you have stuff like CE exalted ring, aran wand, arena weapon etc). Once capped, assuming you're using 5 dmg 4 hit gems to reach that cap, gaining 4 hit rating on an item means 1 of those 5 dmg 4 hit gems can turn into a 9 dmg gem providing extra 4 spell dmg. This is far lower than the "I'm not hitcapped" spell dmg equivalent of hit, and is a more realistic way to look at it, as you *should* be hit capped even in pre-raid gear via gems. Even if your hit sucks so bad that you need 8 hit gems in gear to cap hit, you still only gain 5 dmg by gaining 4 hit from an item, still lower than your 1.3 dmg equivalent for 1 hit rating. The higher your gear level is the even worse hit rating becomes as you have more and better options you can use to cap hit.
That's true, except warlock gear has an abundance of yellow slots and very few red ones. Making this gem switch probably costs you a socket bonus as well.

That said, hitcapping when you are at Hydross costs you a lot of crit/dmg through both gear selection and gems. The [Boots of the Shifting Nightmare] do allow you to swap out something like a [Scryer's Bloodgem]
#944SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
 Sservis
Responding to post #340

Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
If we find the optimal time for the last shatter (the most important since it drops the most threat/fight), we can determine the best times to shatter in general.

Aims:
1) End fight at 130% threat of tank.
2) Only shatter when at 130% of tank.

(realistically you'd shatter JUST before 130%... but for the sake of simplicity I'll use 1.3)

Fight length = 1
Time of last shatter = N
Tank's threat gen = 1/unit-time
Lock's threat gen = W/unit-time

At time=N, we're at 130% of tank, shatter and in the length of time (1-N) we generate enough threat to get back to 130% of the tank.

At the end of the fight the tank has 1 threat, so we can have 1.3. Our threat by the end of the fight is the amount of threat we have after the last shatter (1.3 * N / 2) plus the threat generated in 1-N time (1-N)*W.

So we need:
1.3 = (1.3*N/2) + (1-N)W
or
N = (1.3-W)/(.65-W)

Since tank tps = 1, W = warlock_TPS/tank_TPS. So for any given ratio W, this shows the % through the fight when the last shatter should be. Every 5minutes previous to that should have another shatter.

So if W>1.3 (ie you generate enough threat to eventually pull), you should hold back to W=1.3 until the first shatter, at which point you can go hog wild.

Some example ratios W:
W	Boss% at last shatter
1.3	100%
1.4	87%
1.5	76%
1.6	68%
1.7	62%
In long fights, this will be shattering too late. Assume it's the W=1.6 case and a 10 minute fight with completely boringly uniform threat from both the warlock and the tank. The 1.6 case suggests the shatter should be done about 3:10 into the fight, and after that the warlock is indeed not threat capped. However the Shatter could be done as early as 2:19 into the fight and avoid being threat capped as reshatter will be possible at at 7:19.

Let w = the warrior's tps. After the first shatter, the warlock will have 1.3 * 139 * w / 2 threat. Before the second shatter the warlock will have an additional 1.6 * 300 * w threat. At the time of the second shatter, the warlock has a total of 570.35 * w threat, and the tank has 439 * w threat, and 439 * 1.3 = 570.7, and the warlock has yet to pull. By shattering 51 seconds earlier, the warlock achieves that much more time at 1.6 * w tps rather than 1.3 * w tps.

The case you overlooked was that in long fights, there's a fixed time before threat stops mattering, regardless of the fight time. In the W = 1.6 case, it's 7:19, and so first shatter is always at 2:19. Using your terminology this critical time is at 300 *(W - 1.3)/ .65 seconds. Due to this factor, fights longer than the critical time should be shattered at a specific timeframe into the fight, with followup shatters as needed.

W       dur   1st shat
------  -----  -------
1.4     346s    46s
1.5     392s    92s
1.6     438s   138s
1.7     485s   185s
I wrote up the rationale and derivation of the optimal times to use abilities (in fights that are long enough) in Optimal Threat Reductions (Vanish/Feign/Invis/SoulShatter) as it's more generally useful than just for Warlocks.

In general Warlocks should shatter at the first of your % and the times I've listed, although your % should likely be shaded a bit higher due to abilities and execute range making the last part of any bosses health go faster than the early parts.

Last edited by Sservis : 01/13/08 at 6:32 AM.
#945SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Phantasie
On the topic of threat....Just a quick clarification. Soul leech heals do give the warlock threat?
#946SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Phantasie View Post
Soul leech heals do give the warlock threat?
Just like other healing spells, this gives threat (it counts as 50% threat, plus modifies like salvation and likely the 10% threat talent as well will reduce it).

Mine has about 90% overheal, so the small 10% that it heals for is hardly any threat.
#947SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2galzohar
Remember it only gives threat when you actually need the heal. If you're threat capped on a remotely regular basis and on those fights soul leech healing doesn't do anything for survivability you should probably consider not speccing into it. Either if you spec into it or not, though, it's going to make a very small difference, both for healing and threat, as both would be very insignificant.
#948SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Kimmee
Originally Posted by Stran View Post
May I sugest going 3/3 Nether Protection? I take 0 in Aftermath as it's fairly useless in pve and marginal in pvp (and I never pvp in 21/40). I pick up 1 in Imp SP just for filler, as I do use SP in raids (Tanking frost wyrms etc) 3/3 in Nether protection have saved me in raids before.

I'll name some fights on top of my head where it helps:

MH Trash (marginal utility but has prevented some damage at least)
Anatheron (Infernal and Swarm are both covered under it. Obviously only works for swarm if infernal procs it. I THINK sleep is also shadow)
Azgalor (Rain of fire, not that you should ever be hit by it.)
Archimonde (Fear, Grip and Doomfire can all proc it) I've had fear proc it and run me through a doom fire unharmed. I've had a grip proc it and cause 0 damage for 4 ticks before my slow decurser got to me :P

BT: First true benefit was on Terron. Last kill it proced 15 times in a 5 minute fight.

Haven't been past here but I assume it could be usefull on RoS, Mother and Illidan.

Anyways, marginal utility but far better than 4/5 Aftermath IMO.
Azgalor's Rain of Fire and Archimonde's Doomfire do not proc Nether Protection. I think the silence in Azgalor procs it, which is what you probably had it mistaken for, and Grip and Fear definitely proc it on Archi. I suppose if it happens to already be up procced by a fear it could protect you from Doomfire, but unfortunately the fire itself doesn't proc it. Your best bet is to just stay away from Doomfire anyway haha.

It procs a lot on Mother though, and also in P2 Illidan. I don't think anything in RoS procs it....maybe the mana drain in P1, I can't really remember, but I know it does not proc from my own shadow damage in P2 or from the DoT in P3 where it would be really useful.

I take Nether Protection mainly because I don't ever have to tank anything, and there is nowhere else better to put the points really. It helps save a bit of healing here and there but it certainly isn't a vitally important talent to have.
#949SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Kimmee View Post
Azgalor's Rain of Fire and Archimonde's Doomfire do not proc Nether Protection. I think the silence in Azgalor procs it.

I don't think anything in RoS procs it.
Correct, the two annoying things with long DoTs (if you get hit) that the talent does nothing for. Nothing on RoS will proc it either.

This talent is also very nice in BGs, there is a lot of Fire and Shadow damage going around.


I would have the talent, but I have do tank Caperian and Illidan sometimes so I picked imp Searing Pain for my throwaway talents (I use that spell more than Immolate, but still hardy ever).
#950SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2rochan
Speaking of tanking, I've noticed late game (4/5 t6 etc) 0/21/40 that SB spam out TPSs Searing pain. For example in Hyjal you can pull a Frost Dragon off a SP warlock with SBs.

Does the Leulier spreadsheet calc. TPS?
#951SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Crepe
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
Speaking of tanking, I've noticed late game (4/5 t6 etc) 0/21/40 that SB spam out TPSs Searing pain. For example in Hyjal you can pull a Frost Dragon off a SP warlock with SBs.

Does the Leulier spreadsheet calc. TPS?
I don't think so, but you can estimate it by using SP as your filler and multiplying the DPS from it by the threat multiplier for SP - I think it's 2x threat?
#952SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Narisane
In the Eye this weekend, the de facto leader of our warlocks set up groups in a way I thought was incorrect. We had three locks, one 0/21/40, one heavy aff (43/0/18 I think) and one demo (7/43/11). The destro lock was placed in a group with the shadowpriest and some healers, and the afflock was placed in the DPS caster crew with a moonkin and elemental shaman. Demo was providing the imp to the MT group. Gear is relatively comparable for all the locks.

It's my belief that the raid as a whole would benefit more from the DS/destro lock being in the DPS caster crew, receiving the crit buff from the moonkin aura and totem of wrath, and helping to maximize ISB uptime, as well as the fact that a crit from someone with S&F and Ruin provides more raw damage than one from someone without. The other lock made that decision based on "destro needs mana regen more than aff and crit is good for aff too."

Given that I was neither playing my warlock nor leading the raid, I went with it, but for future raids I'd like to be able to give him more accurate info regarding setup. Any thoughts?
#953SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2 Eph
Seems obvious in that situation it should have been:
Affliction in tank group. He already has an Imp out.
Destruction in Moonkin/Elemental group. More personal damage from 8% more crit.
Demonology in Shadow Priest group. Helps to keep the FG up.
#954SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Krazen
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
Speaking of tanking, I've noticed late game (4/5 t6 etc) 0/21/40 that SB spam out TPSs Searing pain. For example in Hyjal you can pull a Frost Dragon off a SP warlock with SBs.

Does the Leulier spreadsheet calc. TPS?
Does that include 1 pt in imp searing pain, as well as Salvation on the SBing lock?
#955SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Trickykid
Originally Posted by Sservis View Post
Responding to post #340
In long fights, this will be shattering too late. Assume it's the W=1.6 case and a 10 minute fight with completely boringly uniform threat from both the warlock and the tank. The 1.6 case suggests the shatter should be done about 3:10 into the fight, and after that the warlock is indeed not threat capped. However the Shatter could be done as early as 2:19 into the fight and avoid being threat capped as reshatter will be possible at at 7:19.
Ah yes, you're correct for longer fights.

If you call C the time of the "first shatter" where the cooldown is 300, then we need tank's threat (multiplied by 1.3) at the end of the end of the cooldown to be greater than post-shatter lock threat plus accumulated threat:
1.3*(300+C) > 0.65*C + 300W.
or
C > (300*W/.65) - 600

So given any W, you would see the best time for "first shatter" if the fight goes another 300 seconds.

Interestingly, time N (the time of the "last shatter" from my earlier math) eventually precedes time C. For instance in a 7 minute fight (420 seconds), a warlock capable of generating W=1.6 gives N=133 seconds, and C=138seconds. Unless I'm effing up some math somewhere, that means deriving shatter time from the cooldown length is suboptimal for some fight lengths and levels of threat-gen.
#956SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2tedv
Originally Posted by Narisane View Post
In the Eye this weekend, the de facto leader of our warlocks set up groups in a way I thought was incorrect. We had three locks, one 0/21/40, one heavy aff (43/0/18 I think) and one demo (7/43/11). The destro lock was placed in a group with the shadowpriest and some healers, and the afflock was placed in the DPS caster crew with a moonkin and elemental shaman. Demo was providing the imp to the MT group. Gear is relatively comparable for all the locks.

It's my belief that the raid as a whole would benefit more from the DS/destro lock being in the DPS caster crew, receiving the crit buff from the moonkin aura and totem of wrath, and helping to maximize ISB uptime, as well as the fact that a crit from someone with S&F and Ruin provides more raw damage than one from someone without. The other lock made that decision based on "destro needs mana regen more than aff and crit is good for aff too."

Given that I was neither playing my warlock nor leading the raid, I went with it, but for future raids I'd like to be able to give him more accurate info regarding setup. Any thoughts?
The real question is why if they only have one shadow priest, they went to the healers instead of the mages. The moonkin especially was probably crying due to the lack of mana regen. Sure, when you are farming T6 content, it's hard for mages to run out of mana, so you might as well put the shadow priest with the healers and have them use less efficient heals for a better margin of error. But in T5 content? Sorry, the shadow priest goes with casters.

I'd change the setup from:

1x Elemental Shaman
1x Moonkin
1x Aff Walock
2x Mage

1x Shadow Priest
1x Destro Warlock
3x Healer

To this:

1x Elemental Shaman
1x Moonkin
2x Mage
1x Shadow Priest

1x Destro Warlock
1x Aff Walock
3x Healer

Now that said, it's true that the destruction warlock can use a shadow priest more than affliction, and they use crit better too. But in the grand scheme of things, Mages need the mana more than Warlocks do, and they use crit even better (due to ignite giving better returns than ruin). If you had one open slot in that caster group, it would go to the destro warlock over affliction though. That way they get both the shadow priest and the 8% crit.
#957SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Narisane
Originally Posted by tedv View Post
The real question is why if they only have one shadow priest, they went to the healers instead of the mages. The moonkin especially was probably crying due to the lack of mana regen. Sure, when you are farming T6 content, it's hard for mages to run out of mana, so you might as well put the shadow priest with the healers and have them use less efficient heals for a better margin of error. But in T5 content? Sorry, the shadow priest goes with casters.

<snip>

Now that said, it's true that the destruction warlock can use a shadow priest more than affliction, and they use crit better too. But in the grand scheme of things, Mages need the mana more than Warlocks do, and they use crit even better (due to ignite giving better returns than ruin). If you had one open slot in that caster group, it would go to the destro warlock over affliction though. That way they get both the shadow priest and the 8% crit.
I believe the spriest went to the healers because we were a little bit undermanned for healers on this raid, and we were asking them to work harder than usual. More time casting to make up for the healers who weren't present means a lot less time outta the 5-sec rule. There was another shadowpriest elsewhere in the raid but I'm not sure who he was feeding. One of the curses of raiding without a fixed roster, we never know who's coming along until the invites go out.
#958SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Trickykid
Originally Posted by tedv View Post
Now that said, it's true that the destruction warlock can use a shadow priest more than affliction, and they use crit better too. But in the grand scheme of things, Mages need the mana more than Warlocks do, and they use crit even better (due to ignite giving better returns than ruin). If you had one open slot in that caster group, it would go to the destro warlock over affliction though. That way they get both the shadow priest and the 8% crit.
If you include ISB charges into increased DPS per crit, a warlock will likely pull ahead of an igniting Mage on returns from crit. Using the 1.19 sheet's raid ISB addition, my toon would see 1.12% increase in DPS from 1% crit. A 210% critting mage would see 1.1%, no?
#959SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
If you include ISB charges into increased DPS per crit, a warlock will likely pull ahead of an igniting Mage on returns from crit. Using the 1.19 sheet's raid ISB addition, my toon would see 1.12% increase in DPS from 1% crit. A 210% critting mage would see 1.1%, no?
Increased ISB uptime would also contribute to raid shadow damage, and at this point the ignite 10% bonus pales in comparison.

Warlocks also scale better with +damage that the wrath of air totem would provide. Fireball has a 115% bonus damage coefficient. a 43% damage multiplier would be applied to that bonus damage. (15% Scorch, using 10% curse, 5% misery, 13% from talents) SB has a 105.71 damage coefficient. 50% Multiplier without ISB. Assuming 50% ISB availability, that would average to 60% multiplier.

With that in mind, mages gain 164.5 damage from 100 raw spell power. (no crits included) Warlocks gain 169 damage from same 100 spell power. Things change with crit and haste but I could argue they both scale as well in those stats. Scorch would also reduce mage benefit from +damage but not by much, and CoD would increase it for locks.

As long as multiple SPs are available (for both mages and locks) then destro locks should get a shaman over mages. I do agree that Ele shaman, SP, 3 mage group is better for raid sustainability and damage if only one SP is available though.

Another note, most mages are hit capped without any gems due to their 13% hit requirement (in T6 gear). Locks on the other hand could benefit more from the 3% ToW hit bonus as we could gem out hit for damage if we could count on the extra hit.
#960SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2galzohar
Warlock will gain more from crit of course, but a mage will gain a lot more by not going oom, and so will the moonkin and elemental shaman. Ele shaman, moonkin and mage are generally top priority for shadow priest, which means the moonkin/ele buff may get a bit wasted, but at least you're not killing other people's personal dps to take slightly more out of the crit buffs.

Yes warlocks get more out of the moonkin/ele shaman buffs, but the shadow priest priority dictates the group composition in this case.
#961SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Harik
Hi, I usually come to EJ for any help with classes and things, but I've recently been leveling a warlock and playing with talents.

I plan on going affl at 70 until I build up a better gear set (then switching to 21/40 destro) and I was wondering if, in a pure raiding situation, if 5/5 imp corruption to make corruption instant is really worth it. Or can you just put 2 points in it to make it less than the GCD and then throw points elsewhere?

I tried searching around, couldn't find it.

Because I am under the impression that Corruption is being made instant just for the sake of making it instant, or is there really no other spots to put points in affliction?


Thanks in advance.
#962SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2weet
Well, there are alot of non-essential raid dps talents at the lower end of the affliction tree, so being able to cast corruption while moving is generally going to be more useful for raiding and non-raid content (say, vs fel concentration in the case that you needed suppression), hence why people go 5/5 - and also the lack of needing suppression when having a high hit rating meaning there is nowhere else to put tier 1 points.
#963SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Anthraxx
Hello,

I've been raiding as affliction since Kara, and now being 4/5 MH 5/9 BT I'm thinkin' hard about going 0/21/40. I'm generally ok on dmg meters, obviously better on high mobility/multi-target dps fights, but falling behind on shorter/straight nuke Teron-like encounters.

Pretty standard UA build, 197hit, 1404 shadow dmg raid buffed w/o card trinket procs, ~18% crit not counting devastation, 4/5 T5.

The pros of this build are infinite mana and pretty good survivability with siphon life and very nice life drain ticks, malediction, shadow embrace (usually have 4/5 due to 1 point stuck in HS talent), having an imp out for low hp spanners.

If I went destro that would leave the raid with none of the features mentioned above. Is it worth it? Will my dps even increase after respeccing but with only 21% base crit...?

Where is the line after which your personal dps gain prevails over affliction dps + raid utility?
#964SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Gumibear
Originally Posted by Anthraxx View Post
...

If I went destro that would leave the raid with none of the features mentioned above. Is it worth it? Will my dps even increase after respeccing but with only 21% base crit...?
We talk about crit so much because we tend to have the best crit scaling of the caster classes, but we also have the best spell damage scaling. We should all know by now that crit is not the main stat of a destruction warlock. You will be fine with the other numbers you quoted. More crit will help you. Spell haste will help too. Good DPS is about getting the right mix of stats, not just stacking one.

Last edited by Gumibear : 01/15/08 at 7:44 AM.
#965SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Anthraxx
Well, being high on dps meters is ofc fun but will I make up for the loss of other utility skills?

How big dps/survivability impact on raid will lack of affliction lock have?

Last edited by Anthraxx : 01/15/08 at 8:42 AM.
#966SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Silaine
In my opinion, Shadow Embrace is useful when learning new encounters and when your MT has trouble staying alive. Tier 5 and 6 has plenty Stamina, so perhaps the imp buff isn't that necessary anymore. Consider changing to destro and see how the playstyle suits you and how the raid fares without SE and imp.

I'm staying affliction until I get my second tier 5 piece. Might put it off until Solarian drops Void Star Talisman...which'll happen in my dreams.
#967SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2gargosch
On the topic of threat....Just a quick clarification. Soul leech heals do give the warlock threat?
NO it only does the normal threat from damage. Use omen Life tab use Siphon Life and watch the thread. Same for Death Coil.
#968SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2notimeremains
Spell hit?

hi guys!

Arelenda thanks for creating this post, alot of mysteries revealed for me, so thanks and /salute

where i still have some mysteries about is spell hit; currently i have this /me
and i have 131 spell hit rating, i think this is excl. the suppression @ 5/5. now i wanted to change my specc from solo/pve/pvp to full pve raiding specc.
but when can i drop some points in suppression?

do i need to change my gems to + spell hit gems or not?

my second question is what do you think of my gear...
i know my main hand weapon needs an upgrade : dagger (kara) / sword (gruul) / sword (za) just wont drop.
although we do them each week. so spellblade from pvp honour is currently on my menu list... im also working on the trinket from the badges...
but apart from that what do you think?

WTB comments...

THANKS IN ADVANCE!
#969SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Katinsha
Value of CSD in terms of spell damage?

Editted it, because I found one of my answers by using the search function better.

How much would one have to value the Chaotic Skyfire Diamond in terms of a spell damage equivalent with a buffed crit rate of 30% and 1600 spell damage when 0/21/40 specced.

I ask this because it will influence the value of meta socketable items greatly.

My other question was if CSD made crits from shadow bolt do 209% damage with Ruin. Turns out it does (150% x 3% = 154.5%, with Ruin the crit damage bonus is doubled, so 209%).

Last edited by Katinsha : 01/15/08 at 12:05 PM.
#970SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Krazen
Originally Posted by Katinsha View Post
Editted it, because I found one of my answers by using the search function better.

How much would one have to value the Chaotic Skyfire Diamond in terms of a spell damage equivalent with a buffed crit rate of 30% and 1600 spell damage when 0/21/40 specced.

I ask this because it will influence the value of meta socketable items greatly.

My other question was if CSD made crits from shadow bolt do 209% damage with Ruin. Turns out it does (150% x 3% = 154.5%, with Ruin the crit damage bonus is doubled, so 209%).
Easily modeled in the leulier spreadsheet.

I get about 36 dps with your stats. For endgame locks contemplating a t6 helm, it's better than the [Hood of Hexing] in all situations.
#971SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Emolate
Originally Posted by notimeremains View Post
hi guys!

Arelenda thanks for creating this post, alot of mysteries revealed for me, so thanks and /salute

where i still have some mysteries about is spell hit; currently i have this /me
and i have 131 spell hit rating, i think this is excl. the suppression @ 5/5. now i wanted to change my specc from solo/pve/pvp to full pve raiding specc.
but when can i drop some points in suppression?

do i need to change my gems to + spell hit gems or not?

my second question is what do you think of my gear...
i know my main hand weapon needs an upgrade : dagger (kara) / sword (gruul) / sword (za) just wont drop.
although we do them each week. so spellblade from pvp honour is currently on my menu list... im also working on the trinket from the badges...
but apart from that what do you think?

WTB comments...

THANKS IN ADVANCE!
If you have read this thread then you have the answers to all of your questions.

It is stated several times in this thread, and anywhere else of any substance, that +spellhit until you are hit-capped is the first and foremost priority of any raiding Warlock. It is not even worth discussing if you need to more spellhit. Of course you do. You can stop using Suppression when it is no longer compensating for your spellhit on Affliction spells.

It is trivial to get to 200+.

Gems, the Terrokar Tablet of Vim, even the quest-reward staff from Consortium all have spellhit. Your Greatsword of Horrid Dreams has spellhit, which the Gruul sword does not. Craftable gear (Spellstrike and Frozen Shadow Weave) will put you well within the requirements for spellhit, which you have blown in order to put spelldamage gems in everything.

I would recommend you actually read this thread to answer all of your questions.

Get hit-capped. Get hit-capped. Get hit-capped.

Edit: Your URL is even on Warcrafter. It is trivial to model your Warlock by making appropriate gem and enchantment changes.

Last edited by Emolate : 01/15/08 at 12:40 PM.
#972SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Arelenda
Originally Posted by Katinsha View Post
My other question was if CSD made crits from shadow bolt do 209% damage with Ruin. Turns out it does (150% x 3% = 154.5%, with Ruin the crit damage bonus is doubled, so 209%).
I'll add this to the compendium.
#973SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2rochan
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
Does that include 1 pt in imp searing pain, as well as Salvation on the SBing lock?
Typically 1 point in searing pain or Emberstorm yes. Both locks would have salvation as it's Hyjal trash. The idea is that Shadowbolt scales so much better than searing pain that it produces more TPS in T6 content.
#974SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Ammanas
Originally Posted by Anthraxx View Post
Hello,

I've been raiding as affliction since Kara, and now being 4/5 MH 5/9 BT I'm thinkin' hard about going 0/21/40. I'm generally ok on dmg meters, obviously better on high mobility/multi-target dps fights, but falling behind on shorter/straight nuke Teron-like encounters.

Pretty standard UA build, 197hit, 1404 shadow dmg raid buffed w/o card trinket procs, ~18% crit not counting devastation, 4/5 T5.

The pros of this build are infinite mana and pretty good survivability with siphon life and very nice life drain ticks, malediction, shadow embrace (usually have 4/5 due to 1 point stuck in HS talent), having an imp out for low hp spanners.

If I went destro that would leave the raid with none of the features mentioned above. Is it worth it? Will my dps even increase after respeccing but with only 21% base crit...?

Where is the line after which your personal dps gain prevails over affliction dps + raid utility?
Most guilds that don't have Illidan on farm still run with an Affliction lock. Yes, in BT/Hyjal he is not going to be able to keep up with the other casters on the DPS meter - but Blood Pact/Shadow Embrace are huge helps on learning encounters and malediction is always nice. When you are trying to kill a boss for the first time, that 70 stam (more if talented) and 5% damage reduction can be huge. Of course, there is no reason to run more than one Affliction lock.

As far as you're personal DPS, it will go up. Alot. I went from averaging around 1000-1100 DPS as affliction to 1400-1500+ as 21/40 - and I only have ~22 paperdoll crit raid buffed. Keep in mind, a big part of this is the fact that as Affliction you are usually dropping an imp in the tank group and as 21/40 you usually get some kind of group benefit (spriest/WoA/ele sham/BM hunter/whatever).

Like Gumi said, even as 21/40 crit is still the fourth best stat for Warlocks. Because of all the multipliers (Sacced Succy/S&F) damage scales insanely well with 21/40. You are going to want to prioritize Spell Hit until capped (obviously) > Damage > Haste (much better % per point ratio than crit) > Crit. As far as the whole crit in relationship to ISB uptime thing, there has been a lot of math done in this thread(check out pages 21/22) and stacking crit doesn't help ISB uptime as much as you might think. Its also easy to forget that haste also helps ISB uptime, because you are casting more SBs.

Last edited by Ammanas : 01/15/08 at 3:07 PM.
#975SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Suggestive
Originally Posted by Emolate View Post
If you have read this thread then you have the answers to all of your questions.

It is stated several times in this thread, and anywhere else of any substance, that +spellhit until you are hit-capped is the first and foremost priority of any raiding Warlock. It is not even worth discussing if you need to more spellhit. Of course you do. You can stop using Suppression when it is no longer compensating for your spellhit on Affliction spells.

It is trivial to get to 200+.

Gems, the Terrokar Tablet of Vim, even the quest-reward staff from Consortium all have spellhit. Your Greatsword of Horrid Dreams has spellhit, which the Gruul sword does not. Craftable gear (Spellstrike and Frozen Shadow Weave) will put you well within the requirements for spellhit, which you have blown in order to put spelldamage gems in everything.

I would recommend you actually read this thread to answer all of your questions.

Get hit-capped. Get hit-capped. Get hit-capped.

Edit: Your URL is even on Warcrafter. It is trivial to model your Warlock by making appropriate gem and enchantment changes.
You would seriously advocate using the Greatsword of Horrid dreams over Bloodmaw Magus-blade just because of spell hit? I understand telling people to grab as much hit as possible through gems for example, its pretty basic, but advocating inferior items like that is pretty bad. There should be a limit to how much you worship the stat, use the spreadsheet if you need to compare values, somehow i don't see that blue being better than the Magus-blade.
#976SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Trickykid
Yeah, dropping everything for hit isn't a good idea. There were points in my upgrade path where I was able to do more damage with +12% hit due to items without hit giving more DPS.

Use the spreadsheet and do the math (or get Pawn to do the math for you) to see if an item is an upgrade.
#977SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
rochan
Originally Posted by Ammanas View Post
Most guilds that don't have Illidan on farm still run with an Affliction lock. Yes, in BT/Hyjal he is not going to be able to keep up with the other casters on the DPS meter - but Blood Pact/Shadow Embrace are huge helps on learning encounters and malediction is always nice. When you are trying to kill a boss for the first time, that 70 stam (more if talented) and 5% damage reduction can be huge. Of course, there is no reason to run more than one Affliction lock.
Hmm, looking forward to Sunwell, it would probably be advantageous to have an Aff lock for SE (+5% tank HP, guaranteed Imp) for hard hitting bosses. However, it would be less DPS to have a Dest lock spec Aff, because the DPS difference between the two specs outweighs Malediction.

This is one 'flaw' in our class that no Devs seem to notice as there have been no significant PVE changes to our talents in the past year. 40/41 demo can be great if the pet can live, however Affliction is just terrible late game. Probably 95% of Illidan-farming, non-PVP spec warlocks are 0/21/40.

Last edited by rochan : 01/15/08 at 3:59 PM.
#978SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2awakened
So we are working on Vashj now and I get to help kill the elementals plus I am on DoT duty for the elites/striders as they show up (I'm deep affliction spec). I'm in a group of 3 on the north side, grouped with a resto druid and a DPS warrior. Now if I focus on the task of killing elementals, all is good on our side. But if I take off to locate and DoT the elites/strider, the warrior and druid get overrun with elementals. Basically I'm usually way out of range of the elites/strider when the call for DoTs comes, so I have to get in range. Is there some macro or whatnot I can be using to make it easier to target the elites/strider? Tabbing only seems to grab the elementals because they are closest to me. I figure there must be a trick to this because right now it's just plain chaos.
#979SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Emolate
Originally Posted by Suggestive View Post
You would seriously advocate using the Greatsword of Horrid dreams over Bloodmaw Magus-blade just because of spell hit? I understand telling people to grab as much hit as possible through gems for example, its pretty basic, but advocating inferior items like that is pretty bad. There should be a limit to how much you worship the stat, use the spreadsheet if you need to compare values, somehow i don't see that blue being better than the Magus-blade.
You are not likely to put +40 spellpower on the Greatsword. You would be more likely to put +40 or Soulfrost on the Magus Blade.

70 spelldamage difference in the Magus Blade and the Greatsword.

Magus Blade gives crit instead of hit.

Would you rather have 12 hit, or 70 spelldamage?

Their current spellhit is 131. I didn't take time to model the gems, but it is likely they could get 20 more spellhit and still retain socket bonuses (which are frequently spellhit for FSW pieces).

So would I rather see a lock show up to a raid with 151 hit, or 131? Even if they have another 110 spelldamage from Magus Blade and +40 spelldamage enchant?

On the other hand, I just checked their enchants on gear and they're needing a tune-up, in my opinion. Get spellstrike on the gloves, for example. That would allow you to get 4 more spellhit and start using the Magus Blade.

They can use the Magus Blade if they have it. They don't. The Greatsword helps them more, at this point, IMO. The good news is that it is easy to fix most of the problems.

Right now that Warlock has medicore spellhit, needs a serious re-gemming and optimized enchantments on their gear.

The only piece of Warlock T4 I wear is the shoulders. The rest is replaced easily in Karazhan and Badge rewards with better stats than T4 gives you.
#980SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Emolate
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
Yeah, dropping everything for hit isn't a good idea. There were points in my upgrade path where I was able to do more damage with +12% hit due to items without hit giving more DPS.

Can you give us an example, please?
#981SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Trickykid
Originally Posted by Emolate View Post
Can you give us an example, please?
If +hit is only worth 1.1-1.3 spell power, the statement "cap hit before you worry about anything else" is silly, particularly for an affliction lock who can subsidize lack of hit with spare talent points into suppression.

You should always be checking the value of the item rather than following a rule of thumb like hit>all. When I was in t4ish gear, using t4 gloves/shoulders for the set bonus was better than using the attumen gloves even though I dropped about 40 hit rating. I remember being at 12% hit for some time even though I could have reached 202 since I was gaining enough other stats to make it worthwhile.
#982SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by Emolate View Post

Would you rather have 12 hit, or 70 spelldamage?
Without a doubt 70 damage.

Look at the spreadsheet, if you want to theorycraft please use the tools we all do. At my gear levels, which are significantly higher than the original posters, 1 hit is worth 1.75 spell damage. Hit scales very well with +damage and + crit that is why it's so important to max. However, you should not sacrifice too much for it. 12 hit rating would be worth 20 damage for me. For him likely even less. If he has suppression and that maxes his hit for affliction, even less.

Even if he were to put +40 spell damage on his GoHD it would not be as good as the Magus Blade.
#983SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Emolate
Originally Posted by Stran View Post
However, you should not sacrifice too much for it. 12 hit rating would be worth 20 damage for me. For him likely even less. If he has suppression and that maxes his hit for affliction, even less.

Even if he were to put +40 spell damage on his GoHD it would not be as good as the Magus Blade.
Okay, thank you. I have a very hard time modeling hit versus spelldamage for some reason. For whatever reason when I am using The Spreadsheet, I am seeing much higher returns on spellhit than on spelldamage.

Knowing 12/20 for you helps me find that point of diminishing return. I will try to model this for myself instead of trying to stay at 200 no matter what. What really kills me is that I have an affliction lock with no points in Suppression doing more damage than me, as well as missing less with Shadow Bolt. It is driving me batshit.

So clearly I am missing something critical, and I thank you guys for calling it out.
#984SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2galzohar
When I look at the spreadsheet, using 18% crit 1400 shadow 1200 fire 6% hit from gear I get 1 hit rating equivalent to 0.9 spell dmg... If you're close to the hit cap it even goes down to 0.85 spell dmg. So as affliction once you have 6% hit from gear there is pretty much no reason to gem for hit (unless the socket bonuses are actually worth it, which is not the case for frozen shadoweave and spellstrike). Some items with hit will be good anyway due to the very low value of crit and many items having either crit or hit on them, but it doesn't mean hit is important for affliction.
Not to mention fights with movement, multi-dotting, non-boss mobs etc can shift it even more against hit.

For destruction hit is so powerful you stack it regardless of how useful it's going to be, as even if it's not helping you full time it's still pretty damn strong that it's worth capping. For affliction it's the opposite - not only it's weak it's not even useful all the time anyway. at best evaluate hit for affliction at 0.9 dmg at or whatever the spreadhseet tells you. Same goes for destruction - as in the spreadsheet value for hit is the *maximum* value of it and in reality it's less because of adds.
#985SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2weet
Have to agree that prioritising hit as affliction is not really a smart thing, past 6% at low gear levels. Shadow Bolt/Immolate is around 40% of your damage, so past 6% from gear is really diminished value that point for point damage is alot stronger. Examples of upgrades that are good are say Moroes cape --> Prince Cape (-6dmg +18 hit). Example of a bad upgrade that someone taking the advice to 'prioritise hit cap before all else' as affliction, would be Orb of the Soul Eater ---> Netherspite Offhand.

Yes soulshatter can be related to this discussion, but is really not a huge thing at the gear level we are talking about.

Perhaps some discussion of this should be included in the OP?
#986SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Arelenda
Originally Posted by weet View Post
Have to agree that prioritising hit as affliction is not really a smart thing, past 6% at low gear levels. Shadow Bolt/Immolate is around 40% of your damage, so past 6% from gear is really diminished value that point for point damage is alot stronger. Examples of upgrades that are good are say Moroes cape --> Prince Cape (-6dmg +18 hit). Example of a bad upgrade that someone taking the advice to 'prioritise hit cap before all else' as affliction, would be Orb of the Soul Eater ---> Netherspite Offhand.

Yes soulshatter can be related to this discussion, but is really not a huge thing at the gear level we are talking about.

Perhaps some discussion of this should be included in the OP?
You mean, more than it is already mentioned? Sure, feel free to rewrite it so I can improve on it.
#987SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2weet
Ok, well you could just add in something like:

'Due to Suppression being able to be taken without losing core raiding talents, unlike Destruction and Demonology builds, the value of spell hit for affliction builds is lower once 6% from gear is reached. Shadowbolt and Immolate are roughly 40% of an affliction builds dps on a single target. Therefore while working towards the hit cap on all spells is ideal, +dmg should be focused on moreso.'

and in the basic gear choices:

Spell hit (to cap with suppression) > Spell damage > Spell hit (to cap without suppression) > Spell Haste & Crit
#988SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Anthraxx
Thanks for feedback guys. Having utility in 1 hand and dmg in an other I just asked tank how does he feel about taking 5% more beating and he said he could probably handle.

So... I went destro yesterday to say hello to Kaz'rogal and Azgalor and... LOL... 1-button-smashy-smashy stand there chain throwing these 8k bolts and topping meters o_O I never considered wow pve to require much skill and brain (lets say, compared to w3) but this is hilarious :P

Yes, I'll stay destro, yes I love these big numbers but come on..., this shouldn't be that easy...
#989SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Phantasie
And you did it on 2 horrile destro fights! Silence and extra taps from mana drain just lowers your dmg. Go get you some Gorefiend. Oh and watch out for that P2 RoS *wink*


Haste is a good stat, if they itemized it a little more evenly with the other stats. As of right now its kind of silly to get more than, say 80ish passive haste, because you start falling under the +hit cap and take a big hit in +dmg. If they threw some sockets on the existing haste items I wouldn't complain. Also even with the new spell queueing thing they implemented not too long ago, I notice the still existing need for stopcasting when i use drums of battle + skull of gul'dan or heroism. Seems to get worse the faster my shadowbolts are flying :/



That brings me to another topic. Not sure if warlock professions has been discussed in a while (besides omgfrozenshadowweave). I recently dropped alchemy for Leatherworking. Has any other end game locks done so? Right now I'm rocking ring enchants and [Drums of Battle]. Nice boost for myself and my group. Heroism+[The Skull of Gul'dan]+Drums= 1.66 sec shadowbolts (according to my old drdmg), add in the icon or ZA trinket for extra pew. Just skull+drums is 2.15 sec bolts. Drums last 30seconds, however use a global cooldown to cast (which the only downside).

Last edited by Phantasie : 01/16/08 at 11:18 AM.
#990SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by Phantasie View Post
That brings me to another topic. Not sure if warlock professions has been discussed in a while (besides omgfrozenshadowweave). I recently dropped alchemy for Leatherworking. Has any other end game locks done so? Right now I'm rocking ring enchants and [Drums of Battle]. Nice boost for myself and my group. Heroism+[The Skull of Gul'dan]+Drums= 1.66 sec shadowbolts (according to my old drdmg), add in the icon or ZA trinket for extra pew. Just skull+drums is 2.15 sec bolts. Drums last 30seconds, however use a global cooldown to cast (which the only downside).
Considered it, but decided against it. Rumor mill has it that there will be another wave of "Best at slot" tailoring items. I leave the drums to our elemental shamans. I have been meaning to switch to enchanting for the 24 spell damage but ... I keep hoping engineering will become more than just flavor proffesion. Granted, the goggles are serving me well having not seen a T5 helm drop or VR helm drop.
#991SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Krazen
Originally Posted by Phantasie View Post

That brings me to another topic. Not sure if warlock professions has been discussed in a while (besides omgfrozenshadowweave). I recently dropped alchemy for Leatherworking. Has any other end game locks done so? Right now I'm rocking ring enchants and [Drums of Battle]. Nice boost for myself and my group. Heroism+[The Skull of Gul'dan]+Drums= 1.66 sec shadowbolts (according to my old drdmg), add in the icon or ZA trinket for extra pew. Just skull+drums is 2.15 sec bolts. Drums last 30seconds, however use a global cooldown to cast (which the only downside).
There is a good chance sunwell will have some sort of BoP tailored item. I plan to craft it, then dump tailoring.
#992SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Triper
Sorry to break up the current train of thought here, but I'm in need of assistance from the warlock community. I'm the DPS Theorycrafter of my guild so to speak.

I'm trying to work with one warlock of mine, who has been putting out poor numbers, and last night I suggested he go affliction (seeing that with Suppression he'd be hit capped with affliction spells) and told him that using a UA -> Immo -> Corr -> SL then spamming shadow bolts until DoTs needed to be refreshed would net more dps than his former drain life spam. I also stressed how clipping off the last tick of his DoTs would be worse than a second of DoT downtime. I also gave him a macro to use his +dmg trinkets in conjunction with him casting UA, so he would get the benefit on his DoTs every time he refreshed them (and the trinket was up)

Now his gear... he was a little confused as to what he was going for. His staff isn't enchanted and his trinkets aren't good for affliction. I've told him some good upgrades for those slots and to fully enchant his gear.

He's a nice guy, and seems to like raiding. But even after this long chat he was still putting out abysmal numbers (although he did improve a bit). He went from approximately 300-350 dps to 420-475 dps. Shouldn't a warlock with his gear be putting out better numbers than that?

Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

P.S. - Don't have any WWS parses with him in them, sorry guys.

Last edited by Triper : 01/16/08 at 1:43 PM. Reason: Added more info.
#993SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2rochan
Just have him spec 0/21/40 and tell him to spam SB. If he still sucks then cut him loose.

He should be doing more like 700-1000 dps.
#994SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by Triper View Post
Sorry to break up the current train of thought here, but I'm in need of assistance from the warlock community. I'm the DPS Theorycrafter of my guild so to speak.

I'm trying to work with one warlock of mine, who has been putting out poor numbers, and last night I suggested he go affliction (seeing that with Suppression he'd be hit capped with affliction spells) and told him that using a UA -> Immo -> Corr -> SL then spamming shadow bolts until DoTs needed to be refreshed would net more dps than his former drain life spam. I also stressed how clipping off the last tick of his DoTs would be worse than a second of DoT downtime. I also gave him a macro to use his +dmg trinkets in conjunction with him casting UA, so he would get the benefit on his DoTs every time he refreshed them (and the trinket was up)

Now his gear... he was a little confused as to what he was going for. His staff isn't enchanted and his trinkets aren't good for affliction. I've told him some good upgrades for those slots and to fully enchant his gear.

He's a nice guy, and seems to like raiding. But even after this long chat he was still putting out abysmal numbers (although he did improve a bit). He went from approximately 300-350 dps to 420-475 dps. Shouldn't a warlock with his gear be putting out better numbers than that?

Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

P.S. - Don't have any WWS parses with him in them, sorry guys.
Having a WWS would go a LONG way as if he is putting out such low numbers his problem is with his play style.

Simplifying him to a 0/21/40 would go a long way as it's one spell + curse. Getting Quartz so he can account for his latency and start casting as soon as his cast is in "the red" would net about 10% to 30% dps increase depending on his latency numbers (this is anecdotal from my personal experiences).

With his gear and no additional buffs (consumables, shaman) assuming a SP in the raid he should be putting out 950 DPS in the 0/21/40 build spamming SB and being on CoE duty (no damage curse)

With CoD he could hit 1080

Affliction is a more difficult playstyle. On a single target, in his gear he should be hitting 980 dps. He would also be providing additional utility in the form of SE and Malediction. This is assuming good dot uptime, which requires anticipating UA running out and starting a cast preemptively, and using taps/dark pacts when a SB cast would cause a dot to run out for over a second.
#995SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Triper
Originally Posted by Stran View Post
Having a WWS would go a LONG way as if he is putting out such low numbers his problem is with his play style.

Simplifying him to a 0/21/40 would go a long way as it's one spell + curse. Getting Quartz so he can account for his latency and start casting as soon as his cast is in "the red" would net about 10% to 30% dps increase depending on his latency numbers (this is anecdotal from my personal experiences).

With his gear and no additional buffs (consumables, shaman) assuming a SP in the raid he should be putting out 950 DPS in the 0/21/40 build spamming SB and being on CoE duty (no damage curse)

With CoD he could hit 1080

Affliction is a more difficult playstyle. On a single target, in his gear he should be hitting 980 dps. He would also be providing additional utility in the form of SE and Malediction. This is assuming good dot uptime, which requires anticipating UA running out and starting a cast preemptively, and using taps/dark pacts when a SB cast would cause a dot to run out for over a second.
Hurm... Granted I've never played a warlock at 70, but I can see how the destro spec would be alot simpler for him to handle (as he's never done these 25 mans before)

I guess I'm putting myself into his shoes too much, I can handle multiple things going on at the same time, seeing as I'm probably the only one in my guild having done this content before. (albeit on a healer).

And I know I'll be shot for this, but we don't currently have ANY raiding shadow priests... Yeah... That's right...

I'll forward him some more tips, I guess I'll just pick up his respec for this time, seeing as I suggested the last one.

P.S. - I'll see if I can get a WWS soon.

Last edited by Triper : 01/16/08 at 2:54 PM.
#996SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Arelenda
Originally Posted by Triper View Post
Sorry to break up the current train of thought here, but I'm in need of assistance from the warlock community. I'm the DPS Theorycrafter of my guild so to speak.
..

He's a nice guy, and seems to like raiding. But even after this long chat he was still putting out abysmal numbers (although he did improve a bit). He went from approximately 300-350 dps to 420-475 dps. Shouldn't a warlock with his gear be putting out better numbers than that?

P.S. - Don't have any WWS parses with him in them, sorry guys.
I'm going to assume that you want to keep this guy, despite him sucking. There is nothing wrong with that.

As people have suggested: either make him the raid support slave (Malediction, Shadow Embrace, Imp Blood pact) and live with his crappy dps, or have him spec 0/21/40. The latter is by far the easiest build to play.

Arelenda's little guide for warlocks (that suck)
- get Omen
- get Quartz
- get a damage meter
- spec 0/21/40
- gearwise: hit = crit = damage (= haste, but that's probably not really worth mentioning)
- spam Shadowbolt. Lifetap per 3-5 bolts. Don't string multiple taps together.
- learn how to time bolts so you don't lose time to lag
#997SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
I'm going to assume that you want to keep this guy, despite him sucking. There is nothing wrong with that.

As people have suggested: either make him the raid support slave (Malediction, Shadow Embrace, Imp Blood pact) and live with his crappy dps, or have him spec 0/21/40. The latter is by far the easiest build to play.

Arelenda's little guide for warlocks (that suck)
- get Omen
- get Quartz
- get a damage meter
- spec 0/21/40
- gearwise: hit = crit = damage (= haste, but that's probably not really worth mentioning)
- spam Shadowbolt. Lifetap per 3-5 bolts. Don't string multiple taps together.
- learn how to time bolts so you don't lose time to lag
Just to expand

- tap while moving if fight requires movement (most do)
- don't tap during DPS race portions of a fight, use pots if necesary as they do not trigger a GCD
#998SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2rochan
Originally Posted by Triper View Post
And I know I'll be shot for this, but we don't currently have ANY raiding shadow priests... Yeah... That's right...

I'll forward him some more tips, I guess I'll just pick up his respec for this time, seeing as I suggested the last one.

P.S. - I'll see if I can get a WWS soon.
That's huge...16% less damage from warlocks, 5% less from all other casters. Recruit!
#999SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Necrostar
Just curious. Has anybody put together a "wish list" of gear that would put out the most dps as 0/21/40 ? I would think that 4pc T6 has to be in the equation given that it contributes 6% more to shadowbolts. The piece that you wouldn't use is something I've pondered. There are 2 items with a [151] rating , Robes of Rhonin & Cowl of The Illidari High Lord that I would consider as replacements to that 5th T6 item. Also Zhar'doom vs Tempest of Chaos + Chronicle of Dark Secrets.
#1000SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by Necrostar View Post
Just curious. Has anybody put together a "wish list" of gear that would put out the most dps as 0/21/40 ? I would think that 4pc T6 has to be in the equation given that it contributes 6% more to shadowbolts. The piece that you wouldn't use is something I've pondered. There are 2 items with a [151] rating , Robes of Rhonin & Cowl of The Illidari High Lord that I would consider as replacements to that 5th T6 item. Also Zhar'doom vs Tempest of Chaos + Chronicle of Dark Secrets.
Zhar'doom wins by a small margin in DPS. As far as the 5th T6 piece, I find Legging of the Chaneled Elements to be the best at slot.

Take a look at this. Best At Slot is my wish list of sorts, Staff is the same list with just staff subbed in.

Stran - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger
#1001SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Krazen
Originally Posted by Stran View Post
Zhar'doom wins by a small margin in DPS. As far as the 5th T6 piece, I find Legging of the Chaneled Elements to be the best at slot.

Take a look at this. Best At Slot is my wish list of sorts, Staff is the same list with just staff subbed in.

Stran - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger
I agree with this, although you're nitpicking between [Vestments of the Sea-Witch], [Cowl of the Illidari High Lord], and [Leggings of Channeled Elements].

The [Robes of Rhonin] are a sidegrade from t6 and are not worth using.

Eventually you might want all 3 in case you pick up replacements for t6 shoulders or gloves in Sunwell. That said, I grabbed the Vestments. Our pallies are getting the first batch of t6 chests.

Last edited by Krazen : 01/17/08 at 9:39 AM.
#1002SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Phantasie
To break the t6 four piece, the sunwell loot would have to be insanely good. I foresee me keeping 4piece until expansion.
#1003SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Talosh
Originally Posted by Stran View Post
Zhar'doom wins by a small margin in DPS. As far as the 5th T6 piece, I find Legging of the Chaneled Elements to be the best at slot.

Take a look at this. Best At Slot is my wish list of sorts, Staff is the same list with just staff subbed in.

Stran - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger
Also played a bit with WoWDigger before and personally focusing for this gear:
Talosh - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger
#1004SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Anthraxx
@Triper
Making a guy with 84 hit play 0/21/40 is the last resort to be honest. Try to teach him proper rotations in deep affli, it's not that hard with dot timer addon (NECB is rly good from my experience).

A bit different question: how good are the [Destruction Potion]s? 2% crit 120 dmg is SWEET, but... 15secs? seems short... And you're using your pot CD up which might hurt in these oh-shit-moments

On the other hand popping it during bloodlust... mmmmmmm, pure love!

EDIT: lets assume I'm able to squeeze out 6 sbs during this effect (no haste, zero lag). How is potential dmg gain looking compared to, lets say mana pot vs. 2 gcd of tapping + life loss.
#1005SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Anthraxx View Post
@Triper
Making a guy with 84 hit play 0/21/40 is the last resort to be honest. Try to teach him proper rotations in deep affli, it's not that hard with dot timer addon (NECB is rly good from my experience).

A bit different question: how good are the [Destruction Potion]s? 2% crit 120 dmg is SWEET, but... 15secs? seems short... And you're using your pot CD up which might hurt in these oh-shit-moments

On the other hand popping it during bloodlust... mmmmmmm, pure love!

EDIT: lets assume I'm able to squeeze out 6 sbs during this effect (no haste, zero lag). How is potential dmg gain looking compared to, lets say mana pot vs. 2 gcd of tapping + life loss.
84 is more than enough for destro.

As for the potions:
2% crit and 120 damage for 6 shadowbolts is on average the same as +12% crit and 720spellpower for one bolt, say 1200-1500 damage, and that's being very, very generous. A mana potion gives you two GCDs, or roughly a shadow bolt's worth, say 2000-2500. This is ignoring multipliers like CoS, DS, Misery, Shadoweaving, they work for both. Under normal circumstances, the mana pot will win by a mile.

Last edited by Arelenda : 01/17/08 at 7:56 AM.
#1006SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Anthraxx
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
84 is more than enough for destro.
Hmm? If I didn't see ur armory I'd simply say u're crazy, but you seems experienced so I'll try to figure why would u let any lock go destro with 84 crit...

Maybe in _this_ case that low hit won't be gamebreaking, BUT in general he'd do MUCH better as affliction after learning basic rotations.

Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
As for the potions:
2% crit and 120 damage for 6 shadowbolts is on average the same as +12% crit and 720spellpower for one bolt, say 1200-1500 damage, and that's being very, very generous. A mana potion gives you two GCDs, or roughly a shadow bolt's worth, say 2000-2500. This is ignoring multipliers like CoS, DS, Misery, Shadoweaving, they work for both. Under normal circumstances, the mana pot will win by a mile.
Not sure about ur maths, cause higher crit might influence imp sb uptime thus buffing your/raid dps by a noticable margin. As I thought, destro pots seem very situational.

Concluding...These pots will shine in short encounters like maybe Akama (no mana problems, although maybe not the boss u'll want to pot for ), Teron (pew pew like there is no tomorrow cause in 5 secs u can become the ghost) and fights where u need fast burst dmg (Kael p2 for example). For longer stuff mana pot looks better.
#1007SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Krazen
Originally Posted by Anthraxx View Post
Hmm? If I didn't see ur armory I'd simply say u're crazy, but you seems experienced so I'll try to figure why would u let any lock go destro with 84 crit...

Maybe in _this_ case that low hit won't be gamebreaking, BUT in general he'd do MUCH better as affliction after learning basic rotations.



Not sure about ur maths, cause higher crit might influence imp sb uptime thus buffing your/raid dps by a noticable margin. As I thought, destro pots seem very situational.

Concluding...These pots will shine in short encounters like maybe Akama (no mana problems, although maybe not the boss u'll want to pot for ), Teron (pew pew like there is no tomorrow cause in 5 secs u can become the ghost) and fights where u need fast burst dmg (Kael p2 for example). For longer stuff mana pot looks better.

You forgot Essence of Anger.
#1008SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Emolate
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
84 is more than enough for destro.

That would be, what, 6.5% of the 16% to be hit-capped. How is that more than enough for Destruction? When I run those digits through the spreadsheet they cry. With 6.5% hit, they would be much better served UA/Affliction with Suppression, wouldn't they?
#1009SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2jaslion
^ correct
#1010SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Krazen
Originally Posted by Anthraxx View Post
@Triper
Making a guy with 84 hit play 0/21/40 is the last resort to be honest. Try to teach him proper rotations in deep affli, it's not that hard with dot timer addon (NECB is rly good from my experience).
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if the guy was capable of maintaining a dot rotation, he'd be playing a bit better than he is.
#1011SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by Emolate View Post
That would be, what, 6.5% of the 16% to be hit-capped. How is that more than enough for Destruction? When I run those digits through the spreadsheet they cry. With 6.5% hit, they would be much better served UA/Affliction with Suppression, wouldn't they?
I ran the numbers for the guy in question. The difference in DPS between Destro and UA build for his gear setup (6.5% hit, same damage and crit as his armory) was 30 dps. UA wins by 30 DPS. I think 30 DPS is a worthy sacrifice for a build that is FAR easier to play, and it seems he needs help in that area.

Hit scales better than damage and crit, and even haste. But this deity-like worship of it is ill-conceived. It's better than damage point for point. You get the most dps increase from it. But you in no way need 16% hit to go destro and remain competitive with affliction. The more damage and crit you have, the more hit becomes important. With his 800ish damage, hit just wasn't that influential.

My numbers were all generated with the spreadsheet, this is not guesswork.
#1012SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2leye
Yesterday I read in this thread, that it would be a good idea to have my imp buffed w/ wisdom for increased mana regen. And last night during our Magtheridon run I asked one of our pally's to buff him. He told me that he could not buff him.

Am I missing something or was the information that I read incorrect? Thx
#1013SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by leye View Post
Yesterday I read in this thread, that it would be a good idea to have my imp buffed w/ wisdom for increased mana regen. And last night during our Magtheridon run I asked one of our pally's to buff him. He told me that he could not buff him.

Am I missing something or was the information that I read incorrect? Thx
The imp needs to be un-phased to be buffed. Turn off autocast on phase shift, un-phase him (right click and then left click on phase shift) and then ask for buffs. Remember to re-phase him after buffs are done. Buff the imp with spirit, MOTW and kings as well, for maximum mana regen.
#1014SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2leye
Originally Posted by Stran View Post
The imp needs to be un-phased to be buffed. Turn off autocast on phase shift, un-phase him (right click and then left click on phase shift) and then ask for buffs. Remember to re-phase him after buffs are done. Buff the imp with spirit, MOTW and kings as well, for maximum mana regen.
Nice! Thanks for the reply.
#1015SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2rochan
Originally Posted by Talosh View Post
Also played a bit with WoWDigger before and personally focusing for this gear:
Talosh - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger
I'd change around a few things:
-Nethervoid cloak over Illidari, which allows you to use Seacaller boots instead of Nightmare (imo you should only use Illidari if you have an elemental sham).
-You want to put 3 reds in your 3 slot items and two orange/purple combos in 2 slot items (for the meta gem). This maximizes DPS.

Also I was going to ask how the Exalted Hyjal Ring compares to a 2nd haste ring. I'd assume the difference is very very negligible, perhaps in favour of the haste ring. But I dont really want to spend massive points on a second ring, when the Hyjal one is free.
#1016SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Arelenda
Originally Posted by Stran View Post
I ran the numbers for the guy in question. The difference in DPS between Destro and UA build for his gear setup (6.5% hit, same damage and crit as his armory) was 30 dps. UA wins by 30 DPS. I think 30 DPS is a worthy sacrifice for a build that is FAR easier to play, and it seems he needs help in that area.

Hit scales better than damage and crit, and even haste. But this deity-like worship of it is ill-conceived. It's better than damage point for point. You get the most dps increase from it. But you in no way need 16% hit to go destro and remain competitive with affliction. The more damage and crit you have, the more hit becomes important. With his 800ish damage, hit just wasn't that influential.

My numbers were all generated with the spreadsheet, this is not guesswork.
Despite you already agreeing with me, I'd like to add that your spreadsheet experiment assumes:

- consistent damage on a boss-level creature: +hit is useless on (almost) all adds and trash.
- ideal dot rotations: clearly not the case here
- no gear swapping: he might have destro suited gear banked

Let us know how it goes!
#1017SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Despite you already agreeing with me, I'd like to add that your spreadsheet experiment assumes:

- consistent damage on a boss-level creature: +hit is useless on (almost) all adds and trash.
- ideal dot rotations: clearly not the case here
- no gear swapping: he might have destro suited gear banked

Let us know how it goes!
It also assumes single target encounter with very little movement. Affliction gets an edge if either or both of these are faulty assumptions.
#1018SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Seir
Is the latest Leulier 1.19 bugged for anyone else?

When I opened it up this morning to test the new raid ISB feature I found it filled with Err:508's.

I'm running Open Office to read the spread sheet but have never had problems with it reading XL before.
#1019SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Gumibear
Originally Posted by leye View Post
Yesterday I read in this thread, that it would be a good idea to have my imp buffed w/ wisdom for increased mana regen. And last night during our Magtheridon run I asked one of our pally's to buff him. He told me that he could not buff him.

Am I missing something or was the information that I read incorrect? Thx
If you unshift the imp when you are getting greater blessings, the game automatically applies all warlock blessings to the imp as well. The same goes for a succubus or felhunter. Voidwalkers and felguards get the same blessings as warriors.
#1020SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2PSGarak
Your imp will also pick up group buffs (stam/spt/int/mark) while unshifted. Always unshift your imp during buffs, including after wipes. It's better for you if he's buffed, and it's easier for everyone involved if he just gets the buffs when you do rather than having to redo buffs for him specifically. Int, spirit, kings, wisdom, and mark will all increase his regen, although he seems to have an extraordinarily poor spirit->regen ratio. I don't recall of the top of my head but it's in the neighborhood of 30:1, compared to 4:1 for player characters. He benefits from BoW as normal.
#1021SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Phantasie View Post
To break the t6 four piece, the sunwell loot would have to be insanely good. I foresee me keeping 4piece until expansion.
The bonus as explained on the 1.18.1 spreadsheet is 88 dps with my current gear (and can scale more if I had a better weapon).

That is pretty huge.

For Affliction it is about half the gain, so those guys will not have as much of a problem with Sunwell items.
#1022SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2fleshy
Originally Posted by Seir View Post
Is the latest Leulier 1.19 bugged for anyone else?

When I opened it up this morning to test the new raid ISB feature I found it filled with Err:508's.

I'm running Open Office to read the spread sheet but have never had problems with it reading XL before.
I recently encountered the same error. The problem does not lie with the spreadsheet. Open Office Calc did not import the named ranges causing many of the formula to break.
#1023SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Triper
I'm going to be taking some WWS from our SSC tries tonight. I'll get them posted for you guys to pick at.
#1024SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2 Eph
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
Also I was going to ask how the Exalted Hyjal Ring compares to a 2nd haste ring. I'd assume the difference is very very negligible, perhaps in favour of the haste ring. But I dont really want to spend massive points on a second ring, when the Hyjal one is free.
I think this was answered before, but I couldn't find it. I'm curious about this too now that I have both options.

From Wowhead's varied math comments it seems that the buff is actually 15s not the 10 on the tool tip, it has a 10% proc rate, and its internal CD is 45s.

Sadly I'm no scientist and really don't know how to use those numbers properly. Perhaps someone can take it from here.

The best I can do is guessimate the proc is worth about 20dmg. If thats the case, dual haste rings do seem to be the way to go, though they are really close.
#1025SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Seir
Originally Posted by fleshy View Post
I recently encountered the same error. The problem does not lie with the spreadsheet. Open Office Calc did not import the named ranges causing many of the formula to break.
:/ Thank you so I guess I'm stuck with 1.18 until it's open office is changed or the SS somehow is adjusted for OO.
#1026SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Promyvion
Hey all, I have a question about typical affliction DPS output.

I recently started raiding BT/Hyjal on my warlock after playing a hunter for a couple years, and it seems that my average DPS is lower than what it should be. I'm 41/0/20, and typically put in the tank group for blood pact, so I don't get a totem or any other group-specific buffs. Also, I use Curse of Shadows/Elements, so no Doom or CoA either. My average DPS seems to be around 1000, sometimes higher.

My usual starting DoT rotation is Immolate>>Siphon Life>>Unstable Affliction>>Corruption, then Shadow Bolts until the DoTs need to be refreshed. I have Quartz, so I can see when DoTs are about to expire, and do my best to recast so that they are reapplied as soon after the last damage tick as possible.

My best guess is that I'm screwing up my DoTs somehow, but I don't see how. Any help or advice is appreciated.

Here is my armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
And a WWS from Naj'entus: WWS Loading...

Hmm, Armory doesn't seem to be updating and shows me in PvP gear, here are my stats in case it doesn't update soon:
1219 shadow damage with fel armor
989 fire damage with fel armor
192 hit rating (15.22%)
15.18% crit
I have 3 pieces of T6, 3/3 FSW, and the rest is tier 4-5 level epics, using Quagmirran's Eye and Icon of the Silver Crescent for trinkets.
#1027SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2weet
Originally Posted by Eph View Post
I think this was answered before, but I couldn't find it. I'm curious about this too now that I have both options.

From Wowhead's varied math comments it seems that the buff is actually 15s not the 10 on the tool tip, it has a 10% proc rate, and its internal CD is 45s.

Sadly I'm no scientist and really don't know how to use those numbers properly. Perhaps someone can take it from here.

The best I can do is guessimate the proc is worth about 20dmg. If thats the case, dual haste rings do seem to be the way to go, though they are really close.
According to shadowpriest.com, the proc is worth 21.27 damage (shadowpriest.com :: View topic - Best Raiding Gear Available)

With the stats I use in the DPS spreadsheet, this would mean Haste ring would come out 0.3 dps higher on personal dps, but with Imp.SB raid contribution, Hyjal Ring is higher by around 3 dps.

So they are effectively the same assuming the 21.27 figure is near accurate (i have a feeling it is probably a little overestimated), and warlocks have a similar rate of offensive spells cast as priests. More info on the proc rate would be the best way to gauge this.

In shorter fights, the Hyjal ring will also tend to have a higher than average uptime which makes it better. But I guess it can also proc at opportune or inopportune times whereas the haste is static, so it is at more mercy of the RNG.

If given the choice I would probably wear 2x RofAK or 1x RofAK and Mana Attuned band (if hit is needed), since I would prefer to have less random stats (crit also being more random) but it really depends on what you can get, and the difference is very small either way. (ie. in my case I have 1 of each ZA/Hyjal/trash ring and currently don't need hit from rings, but will when I got the cape off of council, meaning getting a second trash ring now would only be worth it if no-one else wanted it)
#1028SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2 frmorrison
Originally Posted by weet View Post
So they are effectively the same assuming the 21.27 figure is near accurate (i have a feeling it is probably a little overestimated), and warlocks have a similar rate of offensive spells cast as priests. More info on the proc rate would be the best way to gauge this.
Shadow Priests cast a few more spells than a 21/40 Lock, so I would down estimate the proc at 17.5 +damage (including Life Taps), however for Affliction I would estimate the proc at 22.4 damage.


Anyway the 1.1% extra crit on the Hyjal ring makes the Ring noticeable better for imp SB, so your raid's shadow damage will be higher with Hyjal ring, plus the ring is "free".


Note for trash dps, nothing can beat 2 trash drop rings.
#1029SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2galzohar
Shadow priests only cast max 1 MB every 7.5 seconds in a normal rotation and SWD every 12 seconds, often a little less due to prioritization of other spells or not wanting to get killed by SWD. Rest of their spells benefit from ISB uptime but do not eat ISB charges as far as I know. Overall the result is shadow priests eat a lot less shadowbolt charges than warlocks, gain a lot due to decent amount of non-ISB-consuming dmg, but "waste" more dmg every time they eat a proc as their ISB-consuming spells aren't as powerful as shadowbolts (but they simply have to use them or their DPS will suck terribly).
#1030SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Katinsha
Originally Posted by Promyvion View Post
My usual starting DoT rotation is Immolate>>Siphon Life>>Unstable Affliction>>Corruption, then Shadow Bolts until the DoTs need to be refreshed. I have Quartz, so I can see when DoTs are about to expire, and do my best to recast so that they are reapplied as soon after the last damage tick as possible.

My best guess is that I'm screwing up my DoTs somehow, but I don't see how. Any help or advice is appreciated.
Your fellow locks outgear you by a fair margin (judging from WWS, Armory shows PvP gear). Not sure if that is your reference point, but I guess you could improve a bit. Casting UA > Corruption as priority, then Siphon Life if it suits you and perhaps Immolate (but first check on Dr. Boom if this spell gives you an actual DPS increase or not) will make sure your most damaging spells go first.

As gear choices go, I would go purely for spell damage. But it is hard judging from only numbers whether you are making gearing errors.

Last edited by Katinsha : 01/18/08 at 8:46 AM. Reason: grammar
#1031SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Arelenda
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Shadow priests only cast max 1 MB every 7.5 seconds in a normal rotation and SWD every 12 seconds, often a little less due to prioritization of other spells or not wanting to get killed by SWD. Rest of their spells benefit from ISB uptime but do not eat ISB charges as far as I know. Overall the result is shadow priests eat a lot less shadowbolt charges than warlocks, gain a lot due to decent amount of non-ISB-consuming dmg, but "waste" more dmg every time they eat a proc as their ISB-consuming spells aren't as powerful as shadowbolts (but they simply have to use them or their DPS will suck terribly).
I'm not entirely sure who you're responding to in this post, but I can confirm that what you are saying is correct.
#1032SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by Promyvion View Post
Hey all, I have a question about typical affliction DPS output.

I recently started raiding BT/Hyjal on my warlock after playing a hunter for a couple years, and it seems that my average DPS is lower than what it should be. I'm 41/0/20, and typically put in the tank group for blood pact, so I don't get a totem or any other group-specific buffs. Also, I use Curse of Shadows/Elements, so no Doom or CoA either. My average DPS seems to be around 1000, sometimes higher.

My usual starting DoT rotation is Immolate>>Siphon Life>>Unstable Affliction>>Corruption, then Shadow Bolts until the DoTs need to be refreshed. I have Quartz, so I can see when DoTs are about to expire, and do my best to recast so that they are reapplied as soon after the last damage tick as possible.

My best guess is that I'm screwing up my DoTs somehow, but I don't see how. Any help or advice is appreciated.

Here is my armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
And a WWS from Naj'entus: WWS Loading...

Hmm, Armory doesn't seem to be updating and shows me in PvP gear, here are my stats in case it doesn't update soon:
1219 shadow damage with fel armor
989 fire damage with fel armor
192 hit rating (15.22%)
15.18% crit
I have 3 pieces of T6, 3/3 FSW, and the rest is tier 4-5 level epics, using Quagmirran's Eye and Icon of the Silver Crescent for trinkets.
Najentus is not the best fight to gauge you on as the shield interfears with dot up-time, which is the key analysis for affliction locks. You had 64 ticks of corr when dividing the duration of the fight by 3 yields 84 ticks. That means you had 76% corruption uptime, which would normaly be low. The shield does account for some of this but not this much.

Keep in mind DPS is not the important stat, damage done is. As far as I know WWS still calculates DPS by dividing damage by DPS Time, as affliction your DPS time should be near 100%, where as other classes see slightly lower dps times.
#1033SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Lianya
A couple of questions.

We are about to do Leotheras and I'm going to be one of the ones getting the FR gear to tank him. I'm planning to repec Demo (this weekend), but before I changed up I wanted to ask a couple of things.

1. In the cookie-cutter specs, I see 1 point put in to Improved Corruption, but I'm not sure why this is done. I'm guessing something to do with the GCD? I tried searching the thread but wasn't able to find an answer. If I missed it, I apologize.

2. Other than for Leotheras, when I'm doing normal DPS, What is a good spell rotation? I've been Affliction almost the entire time I've been end-game raiding BC content. Would I bother to throw Corruption up anymore? Should it be something like "Curse --> Corruption --> Immolate --> Shadow bolt"?

I was considering something like this, which is a tad different than the listed specs, but wasn't sure if it was a good or bad idea, and if I was missing out on some stuff by not taking the other suggested talents.

Proposed spec

Also, if there is anything I should know about Leo that you think is interesting, please let me know. I've read up on the fight and I think I know what to do, but personal experience can always be a better teacher.

Thanks a bunch. So far, these forums have been an amazing source of info and have really helped me to change my play style / gear choices.

Last edited by Lianya : 01/18/08 at 11:58 AM.
#1034SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by Lianya View Post
A couple of questions.

We are about to do Leotheras and I'm going to be one of the ones getting the FR gear to tank him. I'm planning to repec Demo (this weekend), but before I changed up I wanted to ask a couple of things.

1. In the cookie-cutter specs, I see 1 point put in to Improved Corruption, but I'm not sure why this is done. I'm guessing something to do with the GCD? I tried searching the thread but wasn't able to find an answer. If I missed it, I apologize.

2. Other than for Leotheras, when I'm doing normal DPS, What is a good spell rotation? I've been Affliction almost the entire time I've been end-game raiding BC content. Would I bother to throw Corruption up anymore? Should it be something like "Curse --> Corruption --> Immolate --> Shadow bolt"?

I was considering something like this, which is a tad different than the listed specs, but wasn't sure if it was a good or bad idea, and if I was missing out on some stuff by not taking the other suggested talents.

Proposed spec

Also, if there is anything I should know about Leo that you think is interesting, please let me know. I've read up on the fight and I think I know what to do, but personal experience can always be a better teacher.

Thanks a bunch. So far, these forums have been an amazing source of info and have really helped me to change my play style / gear choices.
The 1 point in Imp Corruption is to make the cast time 1.6 seconds. This makes it almost on par with instant coruption, which has a 1.5 sec GCD. You just can not cast it on the run.

I have had better track record with 6/44/11 just FYI, but see what suits you better :P

As for the Leo fight ...

Buff the pet. make sure you have some hit gear, need solid hit for building threat. Spam searing pain.

When Leo becomes unbanished, immediately throw a COD on him. It will hit him just as he transitions to demon phase, building some solid agro. Keep Salv off obviously! Reapply doom during DEMON phase, at about 14 seconds left of it. this will cause it to hit at the beginning of next demon phase. Don't get hit by whirlwinds. When he splits, your threat won't need as much work, feel free to move a bit if needed to avoid whirlwind. Can also throw some dots on human Leo to help.

Pet does not get hit by the ae so can keep him following you at all times. if using SL, make sure healers know :P

Thats about it, good luck
#1035SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Lianya
Originally Posted by Stran View Post
The 1 point in Imp Corruption is to make the cast time 1.6 seconds. This makes it almost on par with instant coruption, which has a 1.5 sec GCD. You just can not cast it on the run.

I have had better track record with 6/44/11 just FYI, but see what suits you better :P

As for the Leo fight ...

Buff the pet. make sure you have some hit gear, need solid hit for building threat. Spam searing pain.

When Leo becomes unbanished, immediately throw a COD on him. It will hit him just as he transitions to demon phase, building some solid agro. Keep Salv off obviously! Reapply doom during DEMON phase, at about 14 seconds left of it. this will cause it to hit at the beginning of next demon phase. Don't get hit by whirlwinds. When he splits, your threat won't need as much work, feel free to move a bit if needed to avoid whirlwind. Can also throw some dots on human Leo to help.

Pet does not get hit by the ae so can keep him following you at all times. if using SL, make sure healers know :P

Thats about it, good luck
Oh, awesome about the Pet and AoE. I didn't know he wouldn't get hit. I was planning on parking him in a corner somewhere. It will be easier for healing if he's next to me. (Just have to watch the whirlwind like you said)
#1036SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Bogeywoman
Your spec looks pretty good for Leo. I wouldn't bother with going to ruin in destro, though, at your current gear level. Your crit level is not super high, and you will be spamming searing pain so you won't be getting interrupted or pushed back very much.

Here's how I tanked Leo:

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warlock -> Talent Calculator

Get in a group with a shaman or a paladin whose job it is to keep you and your pet alive. Also have a tree and a priest help out especially near the end of the demon phase when you have a lot of debuffs stacked on you. Put on about 10k worth of hp gear.

Park the felpuppy in a corner about 25 yards away from you. Soulstone yourself and have any other warlocks have one ready to resoulstone you in the event of your demise. Notify the healers that it will need hots during your tanking phase. At the pull, open with curse of doom -- it will land during his demon phase if you cast it every time he turns into a human. When there's a few seconds to go before demon, try to time a shadowbolt to land right as he goes into demon phase and then start spamming searing pain. At around 10k aggro you are probably uncatchable in dps by anyone else in your guild, so let them know to come in. Don't stop spamming searing pain.

If your pet dies, instant resummon, put it on stay, and move to get it safe from the explosions. Let people know what's going on. If you die, you're going to lose aggro, so all healers need to switch to the new 'tank' until you're back up.

Repeat putting curse of doom on him every time he turns into a human.

At 15%, you will be tanking the demon for the remainder of the fight. Have your dedicated healers spread out so they don't all get rended by the human form whirlwind. You have a very high probability of death during this phase due to the stacked debuffs, so the rest of the raid needs to stay calm and safe but get the fight over with as rapidly as possible. Spam searing pain for a little while, but -- here's the trick -- start dpsing the human form once you get a reasonable level of aggro, with dots and shadowbolts, to help bring him down. You may very well get rended and get full debuff stacks so the healers need to be very responsive to your needs. Fortunately you can get aggro back after soulstoning without much trouble if you fall down in this phase.

1/5 corruption is for people who figure that the first point provides the most benefit, as it improves casting time to where it fits in to a global cooldown. In practice it's dubious as to whether you cast corruption when it has a casting time. Since Imp Life Tap is a truly excellent talent for DPS, and since there aren't a lot of builds where you have 1 point floating that can't be better used on, e.g., Demonic Tactics or a Felguard, 1/5 corruption is situational at best.

The spell rotation for the listed spec is to keep the curse up, keep immolate and corruption up, and otherwise pew pew with the shadowbolts.
#1037SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Bogeywoman
Originally Posted by Stran View Post
Pet does not get hit by the ae so can keep him following you at all times.
This is false; pet can resist the aoe, but I've strayed too close to my pet and had it die.
#1038SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Stran
Originally Posted by Bogeywoman View Post
This is false; pet can resist the aoe, but I've strayed too close to my pet and had it die.
No, this is false. I have had the pet next to me for over 15 kills, not once did he die to anything except no heals due to SL or Whirlwind.

Just reviewed all of my guilds WWS parses, not once did my pet receive damage from Leothras that was not physical damage. Save for the first 3 kills when I thought pets got AEd as well, I have always had my pet on follow.

Last edited by Stran : 01/18/08 at 12:40 PM.
#1039SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by Bogeywoman View Post
At 15%, you will be tanking the demon for the remainder of the fight. Have your dedicated healers spread out so they don't all get rended by the human form whirlwind. You have a very high probability of death during this phase due to the stacked debuffs, so the rest of the raid needs to stay calm and safe but get the fight over with as rapidly as possible. Spam searing pain for a little while, but -- here's the trick -- start dpsing the human form once you get a reasonable level of aggro, with dots and shadowbolts, to help bring him down.
Something to note, to combat high level of the stack, when he begins his script, you have 10 seconds before the demon pops out (if he was in demon phase when script begins). Soulstoned paladin can Divine Intervention you, which will drop your debuffs. Promptly click it off and get ready to tank the demon.
#1040SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Bogeywoman
Originally Posted by Stran View Post
No, this is false. I have had the pet next to me for over 15 kills, not once did he die to anything except no heals due to SL or Whirlwind.

Just reviewed all of my guilds WWS parses, not once did my pet receive damage from Leothras that was not physical damage. Save for the first 3 kills when I thought pets got AEd as well, I have always had my pet on follow.
I may have been carrying over my thinking from back before the patch where pets stopped taking as much aoe damage, but I'm sure a felhunter has died on me of the aoe at some point in the past on Leo. I'll withdraw my "false" for now.
#1041SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Lianya View Post
A couple of questions.

1. In the cookie-cutter specs, I see 1 point put in to Improved Corruption, but I'm not sure why this is done. I'm guessing something to do with the GCD? I tried searching the thread but wasn't able to find an answer. If I missed it, I apologize.
If you spend 5 points it becomes instant, but because of the global cooldown you can't cast anything else for 1.5 seconds anyway. Just spending one point makes it 1.6s casting time, meaning that in standard "stand and nuke" fights you get almost the same benefit for just one talent point. I haven't gone with this myself, using the exact spec listed with a succubus, when I tried demonology with a succubus and a very specialised "only good at Leo" spec for learning the fight. Spending the point on corruption instead of crit depends on taste more than anything.


Originally Posted by Lianya View Post
2. Other than for Leotheras, when I'm doing normal DPS, What is a good spell rotation? I've been Affliction almost the entire time I've been end-game raiding BC content. Would I bother to throw Corruption up anymore? Should it be something like "Curse --> Corruption --> Immolate --> Shadow bolt"?
That sounds about right, although whether immolate and corruption are worth it depends on your gear and raid composition. Make sure they do more damage per casting time than shadowbolt before including them in your cast rotation. Judging by your progression, I'm guessing they are.


Originally Posted by Lianya View Post
I was considering something like this, which is a tad different than the listed specs, but wasn't sure if it was a good or bad idea, and if I was missing out on some stuff by not taking the other suggested talents.

Proposed spec

Also, if there is anything I should know about Leo that you think is interesting, please let me know. I've read up on the fight and I think I know what to do, but personal experience can always be a better teacher.

Thanks a bunch. So far, these forums have been an amazing source of info and have really helped me to change my play style / gear choices.
I strongly recommend not using a succubus for demo unless you have T5 2piece and/or the trinket. She dies a LOT. Using a felguard will be a lot less complicated, especially if you're not going to be this spec forever.

About Leotheras:

He alternates between 45 seconds human phase and 60 seconds demon phase. The first human phase is an exception, it lasts 60 seconds (counting from when he unbanishes)


Warlock dps on Leo:
During human phase: whirlwind every 12 seconds, with 15 seconds cooldown on it (I think, I might be a few seconds off here, it's been a long while since I tanked Leo)
- when he breaks or resets aggro you want to start applying dots (corr/CoA/immolate in that order). This is both so you don't draw aggro by nuking before the tank has aggro, and because it will allow them to run out before the 27+ second cycle finishes.

During demon phase: apply dots at the start, refresh them once. SB as filler.


Warlock tanking at Leo:
f
ocus on 365 FR (70 aura, 70 demonology, so 225 FR on gear is capped). Everything else in stamina. 14000+ health is recommended. Spellpower is useful but should not be priority. You can easily compensate for it with consumables.

Soulstones on the tanking warlock are a tremendous help. Due to the nature of the fight, if you die near the end of demon phase this allows the raid to recover, since you'll be ready by next phase. It was not uncommon for me to die once of twice on successful kills if Leo got lucky with no-resist streaks. Note that due to the stacking debuff, random people swallowing one or two bolts tend to live. Also, you are most likely to die near the end of the demon phase.

Spam Searing pain for threat. Use Curse of doom for initial aggro. It's incredibly good for it. Apply it when he unbanishes (first phase = 60 seconds), and during every demon phase with 13 seconds on the clock until human phase (13s + 45s human phase = 58 seconds, with a two second margin).

I bet you will forget COD the first few times you do this, as refreshing the CoD while watching your health bounce up and down like a yoyo is usually the last thing on your mind. Still it is definitely worth it, as 9k damage the first 2 seconds extra tends to give you a wide margin, allowing dps to go nearly all out from the start.

Have the raid time their dps so he goes below 15% at the START of the demon phase. It is definitely worth holding dps to do it, as it will ensure two things:

a. no inner demons will be up.
b. it allows Leo to be hit during the emote, allowing for 5 seconds of threat free dps. He's not targeteable if he does the emote in human phase. Do make sure people hold dps right after emote and get away because he can WW right off the bat. His WW can still be on cooldown from human phase, but even then, have people run off and let the tank get solid aggro.


At the last 15%:


Things tend to get hectic as you're tanking the demon. Make sure you do NOT get Mending, Lifebloom final tics, or Earth Shield at this stage. Leotheras resets aggro after each WW, and you can very easily get aggro on him if those things proc on the wrong time. Tanking both Leotheras and his demon at the same time is not advisable, unless you're Chuck Norris.

Apply a CoD and dots on the demon. If you die and get ressed/use SS, you can easily get him back that way. You won't have buffs, but you won't have debuffs either, buying your raid extra time.

And obviously, use searing totem. It's godly in this fight.


Alternate strategy:
If you have two warlocks with high FR, you can have a spare tank, which tends to make the fight less random. You can also do a "hand off" mid demon phase, allowing the debuffs to be spread between both tanks. This will make healing the demon damage a breeze. It requires two very aware warlocks and really good communication, though. And a warlock able to kill a demon even in FR gear (affliction locks in gimped gear might have issues).

All of these are just guidelines, of course. There are plenty of ways to do Leotheras and win.

Last edited by Arelenda : 01/18/08 at 1:13 PM.
#1042SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Lianya
Thanks so much for taking the time to write that. It's an awesome post and I will share it with my guild. It makes things a lot easier to understand the mechanics of the fight from a Warlocks perspective.

Thanks a ton.
#1043SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
genobi
Just a couple of observations on the leo fight. When our guild first began learning the fight i also specced demo (felguard) to help learn it. After a number of kills some of the things i noticed are: My healers actually had an easier time focusing on me and *just* me. Meaning that when i was specced destruction or affliction the healers said they had an easier time healing me since they could focus more on myself and not worry about a pet. The badge fr gear is loaded with stam and honestly i would forego trying to keep hit cap or anything for the fight and just put on pvp gear for more stam. If you do the fight in this manner then you can place yourself as the mt imp person and then a warrior in that party can also give you commanding shout which really boosts up your hp quick in combination with heavy stam gear and bloodpact.

Snap threat is pretty easy as mentioned if you can remind yourself to cod at the proper time. If not it will definitely be ok since searing pain does the job and without salv on you noone will catch you threat-wise even if your hit/crit rating is in the tubes from the fr gear.

A paladin healing you is fantastic for two reasons; first, they can use blessing of light to up the heal average on you from them, and secondly (i did not see this mentioned previously and obviously i am blind since i notice now it was mentioned 3 posts up =( ) they can di you to remove the chaos blast debuff. If your group pushes into leo's monologue too quickly and your debuff stack is too high make sure you have a paladin ss'ed and they di you then pop back up for the last bit. You will need to remove it quickly and get ready to pick up the demon but i think it is far smoother than dying and losing all of your buffs.

I cannot stress enough the use of searing totems in this fight(as mentioned by Arelenda). Every shaman, every spec, needs to be dropping them in the WW phases. Searing totems save lives!

The only other thing to tell your group is make sure to watch the ww timer and not throw a big nuke right at the end of it, if people can stay calm its a pretty smooth fight once you work out the details.

Last edited by genobi : 01/18/08 at 6:10 PM.
#1044SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2galzohar
Make sure you know how many chrages you take before you can get 2-shot with unlucky resists (if I remember correctly for non-SL dmg 100-200 (take max of 200) + 1650*charges). Once you're 1 charge below the "possible 2-shot" level have ALL healers (possibly except one if inner demon people still need healing alhtough by that point they often don't, and obviously exluding healers still killing their demons) cast-cancel big heals on the warlock. The chaos blast is very fast and at that point taking 2 in a row without a heal in between will get you killed. Keeping lifebloom up can guarantee some buffer at that point, however 1 charge higher and it's just not enough. If you keep getting a bit unlucky, you will get closer and closer to the "1-shot" point. Make sure no priest shields you at any point, as when you get to the point where the next hit will 1-shot you you will want that PWS to be available and should usually prevent that 1-shot (although you should verify calculating with your HP that a shield is enough). If that 1 hit as well before the phase ended, use a fire pot (and battlemaster trinket if the fire pot will not make you survive it for sure) to be able to survive 1 more hit. If you take another hit after that, well, SS/BR, nothing you could've done (except DI which has the same effect as just SSing/BRing the warlock assuming people know to buff him back up).

Make sure your warlock has as much HP as possible. Imp buff, commanding shout and full raid buffs (food at least and flask if your guild is willing to invest in easier learning of the fight). More HP will mean more debuffs before you get 1-shot, which reduces the chance you will actually get to that point within a demon phase. SL spec gives an incerdible HP buffer for the "1-shot" factor however once the fight is on farm (heck, we learned the fight with aff lock tanking, was messy but we did it) you probably won't have that.

Make sure your warlock has maxed FR (preferably using aura so you can get more HP and MD felhunter if specced, again for even more HP)! This will greatly reduce the chance for the debuff to actually stack high enough, although healers should be aware that although you avoid 75% of the attacks, you can still take 2 in a row and the attack speed seems to be 2 seconds, maybe even a bit faster than that, which is faster than most big heals, so once the debuff is stacked enough you need multiple healers spam-canceling big heals (or even not cancel at all if mana is not an issue and debuff is stacked high enough, as no matter how good of a healer you are, the warlock has more chance to survive if they don't cast-cancel, as even optimal human reaction time leaves a long time (generally well over 0.2s) after you decide to cancel the heal until you actually cancel, which is a timeframe in which the lock can get hit. When the debuff is high, play it safe and burn mana (if you can afford it, which you usually can as this is otherwise NOT a healing intensive fight at all).
#1045SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2clavarnway
Nightmare Seed and the pvp click-heal trinket both help if you get within 1 shot range on the blasts.
#1046SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Spline
For the last 15% of Leo, I've become fond of chain sacrificing Voidwalkers for the 5000 hp improved bubble. Once, I've seen 4 stacks of Chaos Blast fall off this way.
#1047SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Arelenda
Originally Posted by Spline View Post
For the last 15% of Leo, I've become fond of chain sacrificing Voidwalkers for the 5000 hp improved bubble. Once, I've seen 4 stacks of Chaos Blast fall off this way.
Stacks can fall off at any time if you resist enough spells in a row. I don't see how the bubble helps with this. They just absorb damage as far as I know.
#1048SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2galzohar
Yep if you get really lucky you can have debuffs fall off due to a lot of resists in a row. This is however pretty rare as they have quite a decently long duration that gets refreshed with every hit.
#1049SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Spline
Try it! See how many chaos blast stacks you gain while bubbled. So far, I haven't gained any! Well, I did gain a stack when he one-shotted my bubble...
#1050SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Yellowss
Hey fellow warlocks!

I am a pretty dedicated pve player and I need your help in connection to a main-character shift, which I am considering. My plan is simply in words, but complicated in practice. I want to lvl my warlock alt to 70 and gear him as fast and easy as possible, so I can continue raiding on him. The spec and gear that I am considering is THIS.
This demands a hell lot of materials, but those should be quite easy to get. Second the gear needs 25+41+25=91 badges and revered whit shatar. (plus max lvl enchanting/tailoring)
Note: First I am aware that several pvp weapons are better, but honor/arenapoints demands quite a lot work too. Second the gloves I have listed are just random aka I think I just have to hope for lucky drops in kara.(or am I wrong/do you see any better choice?)

My questions to you now are:
  • Do you se any easier(or still easy but better) gear choices than those I have listed?
  • Are my gear and spec appropriate in connection?
  • Do you think this gear is “acceptable” for a guild whit 3bosses down in hyjal and 6 in bt? (rember that i will get some raid gear relative fast and leaded the raid on the last bt bosses, which i know very well)

Last edited by Yellowss : 01/20/08 at 3:38 AM.
#1051SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2weet
You have aldor shoulder enchant + scryer ring.
#1052SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Arelenda
Some quick advice.


FSW and the spellstrike set are definitely great for what you're trying to do. Gear choice is appropriate for your spec. I didn't get the point in improving Searing Pain, consider putting it in Emberstorm instead. Although this is mostly a nitpick, they're both filler talents for this build.

Don't go overboard on +hit, though. It is better than +damage only on bosses, and does squat on everything else. When you're farming instances, or doing Hyjal, it is wasted on more than half the mobs. Don't sacrifice everything else for it.

Don't buy the badge items straight away, do Karazhan and other farms (maybe ZA?) a few times, then buy the stuff you didn't find upgrades for. There are plenty of really good offhands in Karazhan/SSC and the one off Winterchill, for example. Do not buy that blade of wizardry, it pretty much sucks.

Whether it'll be competitive: when played well, it'll do acceptable damage. Gear hardly matters in Hyjal, where it's all about SoC on trash. How high you'll be on the meter depends on your play skill and latency, other people's play skill, and their gear quality and the choices they made with it.





Originally Posted by Yellowss View Post
Hey fellow warlocks!

I am a pretty dedicated pve player and I need your help in connection to a main-character shift, which I am considering. My plan is simply in words, but complicated in practice. I want to lvl my warlock alt to 70 and gear him as fast and easy as possible, so I can continue raiding on him. The spec and gear that I am considering is THIS.
This demands a hell lot of materials, but those should be quite easy to get. Second the gear needs 25+41+25=91 badges and revered whit shatar. (plus max lvl enchanting/tailoring)
Note: First I am aware that several pvp weapons are better, but honor/arenapoints demands quite a lot work too. Second the gloves I have listed are just random aka I think I just have to hope for lucky drops in kara.(or am I wrong/do you see any better choice?)

My questions to you now are:
  • Do you se any easier(or still easy but better) gear choices than those I have listed?
  • Are my gear and spec appropriate in connection?
  • Do you think this gear is “acceptable” for a guild whit 3bosses down in hyjal and 6 in bt? (rember that i will get some raid gear relative fast and leaded the raid on the last bt bosses, which i know very well)
#1053SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Yellowss
Originally Posted by weet View Post
You have aldor shoulder enchant + scryer ring.
Ups, fixed!
#1054SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Phantasie
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Don't buy the badge items straight away, do Karazhan and other farms (maybe ZA?) a few times, then buy the stuff you didn't find upgrades for.

Get the Icon right away however, you'll use that practically forever. What raid instances do you have access to? Your gear + Hyjal ring doesn't exactly match.

Voidheart gloves are kind of bad considering - No sockets is a killer for that item. If you were going for a kara level glove I would try to pick up the [Handwraps of Flowing Thought] off Attumen instead. Will get you a bit of +hit so you can swap some of those +8hit gems for the hit/dmg noble topaz. I actually used flowing thought gloves all the way up to Tier6.

Also the badge gloves, [Studious Wraps] are nice as well, if you have the access to quick 60 badges Doomwalker has a nice pair if you can do that [Anger-Spark Gloves]. Basically I would avoid tier4 gloves unless you want the 2piece bonus and need to wear them until you pick up another piece

Last edited by Phantasie : 01/20/08 at 7:11 PM.
#1055SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Roywyn
We're currently tweaking our raid setup and specs in preparation of the Sunwell Plateau. Like everyone else
I'm particularly interested in Malediction, 13% CoE or CoS.

In particular, about the opportunity cost of speccing Affliction instead Destruction, which is a DPS loss.


I have seen people claim "Affliction does 1500 and Destruction 2100 DPS" in T6 gear content.
I plugged some numbers (1.5k damage, 1% miss, 33% total crit including talents, 5% haste) into Leuliers spreadsheat, is that a sensible estimate without a shaman?
With those numbers, Ruin is a bit ahead of UA, Immolate is barely worth casting, and the estimates are:
1540 for affliction, 1680 for destruction.

So, what would be a decent estimate of the DPS loss from destruction vs. affliction at gear of choice?
At 140 DPS difference, I can even 13% CoE make up the difference, while at 600 DPS nothing will make up the DPS difference. Increased mana/health returns can make up for it though, and you'll likely want 5/5 shadow embrace and Blood Pact when 2.4 hits anyway.
#1056SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Arelenda
Originally Posted by Roywyn View Post
We're currently tweaking our raid setup and specs in preparation of the Sunwell Plateau. Like everyone else
I'm particularly interested in Malediction, 13% CoE or CoS.
Looking forward to Sunwell myself .

I don't get the question. Is it whether to go for talented CoS or CoE? In that case, it probably depends on your raid setup, but since warlocks and shadow priests are almost exclusively shadow users, it'd have to be a strange setup for talented CoE to be worth it. Run numbers, though. WWS should provide you an overview of total Shadow+Arcane vs Fire/Frost damage done. I'll assume for the sake of the discussion that you're interested in taking a second affliction warlock for double malediction.


Originally Posted by Roywyn View Post
In particular, about the opportunity cost of speccing Affliction instead Destruction, which is a DPS loss.

I have seen people claim "Affliction does 1500 and Destruction 2100 DPS" in T6 gear content.
I plugged some numbers (1.5k damage, 1% miss, 33% total crit including talents, 5% haste) into Leuliers spreadsheat, is that a sensible estimate without a shaman?
With those numbers, Ruin is a bit ahead of UA, Immolate is barely worth casting, and the estimates are:
1540 for affliction, 1680 for destruction.
I need about 6-7 upgrades and I'm currently at about those stats (from memory: 1450 damage, 30% crit, 3-4% haste), so they're reasonable. T6 4piece makes a huge difference, though. As does, obviously, an elemental shaman. Immolate isn't worth casting for me, and I manage around 1400 dps on Theron, although my listed dps is a bit higher due to WWS calculating DPS in a funny way.

Originally Posted by Roywyn View Post
So, what would be a decent estimate of the DPS loss from destruction vs. affliction at gear of choice?
At 140 DPS difference, I can even 13% CoE make up the difference, while at 600 DPS nothing will make up the DPS difference. Increased mana/health returns can make up for it though, and you'll likely want 5/5 shadow embrace and Blood Pact when 2.4 hits anyway.
Judging by our raid WWSes, our relative damage outputs vary wildly every single evening. It is very hard to draw conclusions out of it.

Judging by the spreadsheet, the difference would be close enough to warrant a second malediction user. But as people have pointed out, the spreadsheet assumes optimal dot choice (favoring affliction), and a single target (favoring destruction).

In my experience, it depends on fights and on play skill/latency more than anything else. Affliction is about keeping an eye on all your dot timers and selecting the appropriate one. Destruction is about hitting that Shadow Bolt button on exactly the right moment, over and over. They're very different play styles, and being good at one doesn't help with the other.

To be honest, I doubt that a marginal raid dps increase or decrease will change the outcome of fights in Sunwell much.
#1057SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
To be honest, I doubt that a marginal raid dps increase or decrease will change the outcome of fights in Sunwell much.
Exactly, however 5% less physical damage + 900 health may make a difference. The big problem with Affliction is the 40 debuff limit with 3 shadow priests and 3 fire mages 40 isn't enough, so you lose dps by DoTs not running the whole duration and of course the lack off scaling on DoTs (they don't want to rebuff Corruption back to 2.0 levels due to PvP).

If blizzard fixed debuffs (by adding priority, knocking off deep wounds and Fireball's DoT), then it would help out Affliction a bit.
#1058SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Nas
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Exactly, however 5% less physical damage + 900 health may make a difference. The big problem with Affliction is the 40 debuff limit with 3 shadow priests and 3 fire mages 40 isn't enough, so you lose dps by DoTs not running the whole duration and of course the lack off scaling on DoTs (they don't want to rebuff Corruption back to 2.0 levels due to PvP).

If blizzard fixed debuffs (by adding priority, knocking off deep wounds and Fireball's DoT), then it would help out Affliction a bit.
You hit the nail on the head. I have been contemplating having someone go Affliction for the Sunwell, but the reason was 5/5 SE rather than the ~2.7% damage increase you get from Malediction. From my personal experience there would be a DPS difference of 600 DPS between the two specs on stand and nuke fights, which naturally makes speccing into Affliction for Malediction not very feasible, not to mention the boost to shadow damage a well geared Destruction Warlock would give to the raid through ISB, further increasing the DPS gap.

However, 5% less damage on the tank while learning new content is fairly huge, and could very well mean the difference between downing a boss on a night, or a week later. No amount of DPS would compensate for such utility, I feel. That being said, I agree, the debuff limit coupled with Affliction not really scaling anywhere near as well as Destruction makes it a fairly weak end-game spec for most encounters, and while I am hoping something would be done to fix that - I doubt that would happen by the time the Sunwell is released, if ever. At any rate, I believe lowering overall raid DPS by a bit to boost "raid survivability" on new content is a trade worth making.

Immolate isn't worth casting for me, and I manage around 1400 dps on Theron, although my listed dps is a bit higher due to WWS calculating DPS in a funny way.
I don't think it makes a difference on fights like Teron, unless you get the Shadow Debuff and end up having to move. It's a very static fight, and both "DPS" and "Average DPS" columns are pretty much identical for all classes.
#1059SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2PSGarak
Affliction does less damage than destro at the high end of the gear curve, but not by much. It's raid-viable personal DPS, at the very least (think: combat daggers, not shadowstep). If you're concerned about min-maxing, the reason you would spec affliction is because of Shadow Embrace. Obviously, on farm content, the 5% buffer is far less useful, but on progression content it's well worth the dps loss, and at least the last three bosses of Sunwell will be progression content upon release.

As far as malediction... it depends on your raid content. In general, it balances out the lower ISB uptime from the lower crit rate. Your personal mileage may vary. It's usually not worth specing into specifically. However, the best spec that includes shadow embrace is most likely 41/0/20 or 40/0/21, so they basically come together despite being kinda far away in the tree.
#1060SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2 frmorrison
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
Affliction does less damage than destro at the high end of the gear curve, but not by much.
Maybe I was bad at putting up DoTs, but I tried 40/0/21 with 4 Tier 6 compared to 21/40 with 4 Tier 6 and the difference is 500 dps for me (shadow bolt's scaling is that good). I was keeping up Siphon and Corruption, maybe I should drop Siphon next time I try that build.


40/0/21 is the way to go if you want 5% less damage, because Ruin does scale pretty well. I think I will bite the bullet and do that build when Sunwell comes out, tank dieing less = progression.
#1061SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Triper
Hey! It's Triper again, and I have a WWS from our Gruul kill. See if there is any way I can work with my warlocks

Wow Web Stats
#1062SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Zether
So let me get this straight just to be exact.

Once I get to 25% crit chance, should I start stacking spell damage?

100% of the time I'm in a group with an elemental shaman, so I'm usually over 25% crit, but im barely there. Usually around 25.64 or something. Should I have 25% UNBUFFED? or is buffed fine?

Here's a link to my armory. The World of Warcraft Armory

Let me know if I'm doing anything wrong.

(I know my mainhand is FAIL)
#1063SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Krazen
Originally Posted by Zether View Post
So let me get this straight just to be exact.

Once I get to 25% crit chance, should I start stacking spell damage?

100% of the time I'm in a group with an elemental shaman, so I'm usually over 25% crit, but im barely there. Usually around 25.64 or something. Should I have 25% UNBUFFED? or is buffed fine?

Here's a link to my armory. The World of Warcraft Armory

Let me know if I'm doing anything wrong.

(I know my mainhand is FAIL)
Plug your numbers into Leulier's spreadsheet and see what you get.

But your gemming is way off. At your gear level you should be putting Veiled Noble Topazes in almost everything (4 hit, 5 damage, except for items with a good socket bonus, in which you can use 5 damage, 6 stam purples in blue slots.
#1064SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Zether
I already told you that I'm in a group with an elemental shaman always, so my hit cap is already achieved by being at at least 165 hit. If anything, I can lose 4 hit.
#1065SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Zether View Post
So let me get this straight just to be exact.

Once I get to 25% crit chance, should I start stacking spell damage?
That isn't totally correct, but you would do more dps if you dropped some crit and used some spell damage. The spreadsheet can give values for each stat so you can see what is going on. Generally straight crit isn't a good gem, for example your belt has 8 crit rating, I would use 5 damage 4 crit noble topaz in that slot.

The spreadsheet says 1 damage and 0.6 for 1 crit rating for your gear, so stacking damage is the way to go for sustained dps for a long while (even at full Tier 6 1 damage is better than 1 crit, but not by much).

Of course don't use Immolate.
#1066SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Arelenda
Originally Posted by Triper View Post
Hey! It's Triper again, and I have a WWS from our Gruul kill. See if there is any way I can work with my warlocks

Wow Web Stats
A quick glance shows that your warlocks need to learn to play. They use random spells. I see lots of drain life tics, one uses Incinerate a few times (which is prettier but does less damage), one uses Soul Fire. Their gear seems pretty awful even for that progression stage, although that's just my first impression, I haven't bothered with armories and the like, and I admit it's been a while since I've been clad in blues.

I'd check their specs and gear first of all, and point them to guides. Make them understand that their purpose in a raid is doing as much damage as possible, and that it actually matters that they're not doing well. When we did Gruul, our warlocks were able to top the dps meters.

Update: Oh, I see you're not running a shadow priest. Try and get one or two, they're incredible. Especially at that stage, their damage is very good and the mana/health returns are absurd. Not to mention misery and shadow weaving.
#1067SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Triper
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
A quick glance shows that your warlocks need to learn to play. They use random spells. I see lots of drain life tics, one uses Incinerate a few times (which is prettier but does less damage), one uses Soul Fire. Their gear seems pretty awful even for that progression stage, although that's just my first impression, I haven't bothered with armories and the like, and I admit it's been a while since I've been clad in blues.

I'd check their specs and gear first of all, and point them to guides. Make them understand that their purpose in a raid is doing as much damage as possible, and that it actually matters that they're not doing well. When we did Gruul, our warlocks were able to top the dps meters.

Update: Oh, I see you're not running a shadow priest. Try and get one or two, they're incredible. Especially at that stage, their damage is very good and the mana/health returns are absurd. Not to mention misery and shadow weaving.
Yeah that WWS was a continuation post from mine on the last page, I'm specifically working with Dewvoodle atm. And yeah, I'm working on the shadow priest problem...
#1068SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Talosh
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
I'd change around a few things:
-Nethervoid cloak over Illidari, which allows you to use Seacaller boots instead of Nightmare (imo you should only use Illidari if you have an elemental sham).
-You want to put 3 reds in your 3 slot items and two orange/purple combos in 2 slot items (for the meta gem). This maximizes DPS.

Also I was going to ask how the Exalted Hyjal Ring compares to a 2nd haste ring. I'd assume the difference is very very negligible, perhaps in favour of the haste ring. But I dont really want to spend massive points on a second ring, when the Hyjal one is free.
The exchange of shoes and Cloak is a nice thought thanks.
The rings are quite cheap in our dks system (using an inverse one: itempoints / runpoints = dkp value, the one with the smallest one gets the loot, itemcost per slot between 1 and 7 points, ring costs 2).
For sure I'll take the Hyjal ring when I get the fraction up to exalted, but one may still dream for two rings.
#1069SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Talosh
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Alternate strategy:
If you have two warlocks with high FR, you can have a spare tank, which tends to make the fight less random. You can also do a "hand off" mid demon phase, allowing the debuffs to be spread between both tanks. This will make healing the demon damage a breeze. It requires two very aware warlocks and really good communication, though. And a warlock able to kill a demon even in FR gear (affliction locks in gimped gear might have issues).
We only used one Warlock with FR gear, sadly because the others are too lazy to collect theirs. Therefor I force them to overtake Leo at the beginning of the 15% phase until my debuff timed out and then let them use Soul Shatter to overtake their aggro. It makes it at least quite easier if the tanking warlock still has some stacks when entering the final phase.
#1070SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by Talosh View Post
We only used one Warlock with FR gear, sadly because the others are too lazy to collect theirs. Therefor I force them to overtake Leo at the beginning of the 15% phase until my debuff timed out and then let them use Soul Shatter to overtake their aggro. It makes it at least quite easier if the tanking warlock still has some stacks when entering the final phase.
Having a soulstoned paladin DI the tanking warlock will drop the debuff stack. The warlock can then cancel it really quick to regain aggro.
#1071SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2galzohar
I thought DI was a complete aggro wipe, unlike BoP/divine shield. That's why you can use the former for wipe prevention, but not the latter. If you get to the point where you need a DI, might as well battleres/soulstone (unless they were all used already), and do quick buffs when he comes back up (he won't need the max HP buffs until the debuff stacks up again anyway). Of course it'll take him a bit to overtake healing aggro if it's the last 15% but it's doable. If he dies during a regular demon phase he has no chance to regain aggro but if your raid survives through it he'll be up and ready to tank the next demon phases.
Of course if you run sl/sl with 13k HP you're very likely to never need SS/BR if your healers play properly and if you wait for the debuffs to wear off before you take leo to 15%. Heck even affliction or destro with 13k HP takes a rather large amount of bad luck to get 1shot, however it's much more likely to happen at least once at some point in the fight (yet it's still doable with a ss/br as it'll mostly happen at the end of the demon phase so it won't really matter as if he goes loose at that point he won't have time to kill anyone and the warlock will be back up and ready to tank by the next phase).
#1072SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
I thought DI was a complete aggro wipe, unlike BoP/divine shield. That's why you can use the former for wipe prevention, but not the latter. If you get to the point where you need a DI, might as well battleres/soulstone (unless they were all used already), and do quick buffs when he comes back up (he won't need the max HP buffs until the debuff stacks up again anyway). Of course it'll take him a bit to overtake healing aggro if it's the last 15% but it's doable. If he dies during a regular demon phase he has no chance to regain aggro but if your raid survives through it he'll be up and ready to tank the next demon phases.
Of course if you run sl/sl with 13k HP you're very likely to never need SS/BR if your healers play properly and if you wait for the debuffs to wear off before you take leo to 15%. Heck even affliction or destro with 13k HP takes a rather large amount of bad luck to get 1shot, however it's much more likely to happen at least once at some point in the fight (yet it's still doable with a ss/br as it'll mostly happen at the end of the demon phase so it won't really matter as if he goes loose at that point he won't have time to kill anyone and the warlock will be back up and ready to tank by the next phase).
Not sure if it is a complete threat wipe, I think we have used it in the middle of a fight before and we were fine. However, just due to ease of use, we do this during his script usually. This lets you drop the stacks you built up in the demon phase prior to the 15% split. This should be the only time you need this tactic as with 365 fr you should never reach a oneshot range without horrible draw on the dice. With 3 to 5 stacks coming into 15% phase though, this is very easy. Hence why we use DI.
#1073SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2galzohar
With max FR (without SL ) and 13k HP you have a decent chance to reach oneshot range once a fight. This in no way means you're going to have a good chance to wipe, though, as when you do get oneshot the demon phase will be almost over and you can SS up and/or get BRed. No real reason to use SS/BR before the warlock actually dies, though, as even if you enter the 15% phase with debuffs on you (which shouldn't be happening! get him back to human phase and lose the debuffs before you dps him down below 16%) there's a chance they'll just wear off, and if they don't and you end up getting 1shot SS up and get aggro back - if all your healers are salved up it's actually far from impossible to get it back.
I would only consider DI if all SSs/BRs were already used up and there are enough healers alive to finish the fight a pally short.
#1074SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
With max FR (without SL ) and 13k HP you have a decent chance to reach oneshot range once a fight. This in no way means you're going to have a good chance to wipe, though, as when you do get oneshot the demon phase will be almost over and you can SS up and/or get BRed. No real reason to use SS/BR before the warlock actually dies, though, as even if you enter the 15% phase with debuffs on you (which shouldn't be happening! get him back to human phase and lose the debuffs before you dps him down below 16%) there's a chance they'll just wear off, and if they don't and you end up getting 1shot SS up and get aggro back - if all your healers are salved up it's actually far from impossible to get it back.
I would only consider DI if all SSs/BRs were already used up and there are enough healers alive to finish the fight a pally short.
This is not exactly true. The issue arises from getting 3 to 5 stacks in the demon phase prior to split. This can happen as generaly it is hard to have him at exactly 16% before he switches to demon phase. We usually will call off DPS at 20% to allow for dots etc (if he was going to die in human phase). Between 20% and 15% you can build up 5 stack easily with semi-bad rolls. This could lead to you being in one shot range about half way through the 15% phase. At this point, a death would make it hard to steal agro from your main healer, especially if that healer has been healing the rest of the raid too. It is doable but he would eat some 5 to 10 bolts most likely, between your death, insta-summon pet and being healed up to building enough threat to pull.

DI simply avoids this worst case scenario from occurring. I believe you can DI and drop it without losing threat, but I can not be quoted on this. Doing it during his speech is just simple and fairly pain free.
#1075SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Krazen
Originally Posted by Zether View Post
I already told you that I'm in a group with an elemental shaman always, so my hit cap is already achieved by being at at least 165 hit. If anything, I can lose 4 hit.
But you're using bad items to get it. Remove your neckpiece and use the Rittsyn shadow damage neck. You'll soon remove that weapon and use either [Nathrezim Mindblade],[Fang of the Leviathan], or [Bloodmaw Magus-Blade]. And, of course, your Scyrer's Bloodgem could be removed for Quag's eye or the Darkmoon Card.
#1076SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Weikin
Hello guys,


I'm rather new here and could use some advice on some upgrades. Our guild is currently raiding SSC 3/6 and ZA 6/6 and we began raiding TK 1/4 aswell.

I'm still working on my hit gear but was wondering if some of the following items I will post are concidering a (major) upgrade:

Cowl of the Grand Engineer - Items - World of Warcraft OR Hood of Hexing - Items - World of Warcraft to replace my Spellstrike Hood

Blade of Twisted Visions - Items - World of Warcraft Haste ftw?

Hex Shrunken Head - Items - World of Warcraft Dont I need the hit from the Scryer trinket?

Cord of Screaming Terrors - Items - World of Warcraft to replace the belt

Which should be the next upgrade for FSW ? Chest that drops off Hydross?

What about my OH? I do need the hit, so I wont replace it by Orb of the Soul Eater will I ?


I need some advice ^^


Armory link: http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...grand&n=Kunlun
#1077SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2awakened
Okay, I know that I need 202 spell hit to hit cap for all spells. Right now I am at 130 (10.3%) with 5/5 Suppression. I've read that you don't gain anything from keeping Suppression at max once you hit cap for affliction spells. Can I move points out of Suppression now? I'm thinking I can move 2 points out of Suppression and still maintain cap for my affliction spells. Or am I wrong on this?
#1078SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Krazen
Originally Posted by Weikin View Post
Hello guys,


I'm rather new here and could use some advice on some upgrades. Our guild is currently raiding SSC 3/6 and ZA 6/6 and we began raiding TK 1/4 aswell.

I'm still working on my hit gear but was wondering if some of the following items I will post are concidering a (major) upgrade:

Cowl of the Grand Engineer - Items - World of Warcraft OR Hood of Hexing - Items - World of Warcraft to replace my Spellstrike Hood

Blade of Twisted Visions - Items - World of Warcraft Haste ftw?

Hex Shrunken Head - Items - World of Warcraft Dont I need the hit from the Scryer trinket?

Cord of Screaming Terrors - Items - World of Warcraft to replace the belt

Which should be the next upgrade for FSW ? Chest that drops off Hydross?

What about my OH? I do need the hit, so I wont replace it by Orb of the Soul Eater will I ?


I need some advice ^^


Armory link: The World of Warcraft Armory
1. The Hood of Hexing is slightly superior, but both are in the same ballpark.
2. The Nath Mindblade is a good weapon and the sword isn't a huge upgrade. Alternatives are the Leotheras Sword or the Dragonhawk dagger.
3. Craft a Belt of Blasting, which will last you deep into t6 content.
4. Hydross Chest is better, but its not a huge difference. If you can kill Vashj, the Robes she drops are better than t6 and they are an endgame item. T5 chest is also an upgrade but requires Kael.
5. Hex Shruken Head is better than the Bloodgem regardless of whether you need the hit or not. The same is true for Orb of the Soul Eater (though I would take the Primal Gods OH) over the Netherspite one.

If you could get the cloak off Prince, that would be a solid upgrade as well.



Originally Posted by awakened View Post
Okay, I know that I need 202 spell hit to hit cap for all spells. Right now I am at 130 (10.3%) with 5/5 Suppression. I've read that you don't gain anything from keeping Suppression at max once you hit cap for affliction spells. Can I move points out of Suppression now? I'm thinking I can move 2 points out of Suppression and still maintain cap for my affliction spells. Or am I wrong on this?
Correct.
#1079SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Trickykid
If you read up the page a bit, you'd know you could use the spreadsheet linked on the first page to tell you relative values for different stats.
#1080SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Weikin
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
1. The Hood of Hexing is slightly superior, but both are in the same ballpark.
2. The Nath Mindblade is a good weapon and the sword isn't a huge upgrade. Alternatives are the Leotheras Sword or the Dragonhawk dagger.
3. Craft a Belt of Blasting, which will last you deep into t6 content.
4. Hydross Chest is better, but its not a huge difference. If you can kill Vashj, the Robes she drops are better than t6 and they are an endgame item. T5 chest is also an upgrade but requires Kael.
5. Hex Shruken Head is better than the Bloodgem regardless of whether you need the hit or not. The same is true for Orb of the Soul Eater (though I would take the Primal Gods OH) over the Netherspite one.

If you could get the cloak off Prince, that would be a solid upgrade as well.





Correct.

Thank you for your response

About #2. How well is haste to see any diffference in dps? If I would take the sword from Zul'Jin and the Primal Gods OH. Would I see any difference at all?
#3: Nobody on Horde side who can craft it yet (1y old server and slow progress)
#4 Hydross, got it wont down Vashj or KT soon ...
#5 Knowing 202 is the spell hit cap, what should be the absolute minimum for when i win Hex Shrunken Head for example and take Primal Gods OH ( 2 spell hit items that I 'll replace? :<)
#1081SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2ravenlust
I've got an issue that i'd gladly take some advice on. Please dont give me the "Dps Less" either -_-.

Im a Shadowbolt Turret, through and through. Destro lock with T5 and BT/Mh gear.

I'm sitting at:

1347 Shadow Damage with Fel armor (no succy sac or shadow and flame)
193 (15.3%) hit
22.99% crit

Its nothing great, but it works. Compared to other casters my gear is equal if not slightly lower in comparison. I've always been able to manage my threat fairly well (mainly via resists lolz) However, i recently picked up the [Blind seers Icon] and the +24 hit off that gave me that little edge i needed to somehow give me problems. I normally wait till about 70-100K threat (totally fight dependent, but lets say a normal tank and spank) to soulshatter. But its getting to the point now where im having to pause 6-10 secs every bolt or dot like an affliction lock for the first 30K of the fight. I then slowly open up and get a string of 7-8K shadowbolts and immediately end up on the tanks butt with aggro. With all the multiple tank swap fights in BT this has gotten very annoying.

It used to be that i was #1 on dmg by 100K. Now i'm #3-6 because i have to sit down and play poker in between spells so i dont rip aggro. I'm about to regem for +dmg and reduce my crit. I dont want to, but i feel it may be my only option. ISP is my only friend :*(

Any suggestions? I've been crunching numbers and still no answers.
#1082SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Krazen
Originally Posted by Weikin View Post
Thank you for your response

About #2. How well is haste to see any diffference in dps? If I would take the sword from Zul'Jin and the Primal Gods OH. Would I see any difference at all?
#3: Nobody on Horde side who can craft it yet (1y old server and slow progress)
#4 Hydross, got it wont down Vashj or KT soon ...
#5 Knowing 202 is the spell hit cap, what should be the absolute minimum for when i win Hex Shrunken Head for example and take Primal Gods OH ( 2 spell hit items that I 'll replace? :<)
First, I'd suggest taking trickykid's advice and use the spreadsheet, which will give you the relative values of each stat for your specific situation.

That said, in your situation, I'd estimate ratios to be about the following:

1 hit = 1.3 damage.
1 haste = .8 damage
1 crit = .9 damage

The reason people suggest capping hit is because hit offers superior returns per point than the other stats do. That said, you need to still consider items in context of what you can replace them with.

The Scryer's Bloodgem, for example, has 32 hit, which you can consider to be the equivalent of about 42 damage for this discussion. The Hex Shrunken Head has 53 damage on it (not to mention a superior on use). Thus, you don't need a 'minimum' number of hit to swap out the Bloodgem; the Hex Head will ALWAYS be better.

You can do a similar analysis on the Netherspite offhand against the Fetish of the Primal Gods.
#1083SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Arelenda
If you're threat capped, don't use affliction dots as Destro, they're more threat than destruction spells.

I use immolate and Life tap if I'm close to the threat max and don't want to Soulshatter just yet. That's about all I can do, though.



Originally Posted by ravenlust View Post
I've got an issue that i'd gladly take some advice on. Please dont give me the "Dps Less" either -_-.

Im a Shadowbolt Turret, through and through. Destro lock with T5 and BT/Mh gear.

I'm sitting at:

1347 Shadow Damage with Fel armor (no succy sac or shadow and flame)
193 (15.3%) hit
22.99% crit

Its nothing great, but it works. Compared to other casters my gear is equal if not slightly lower in comparison. I've always been able to manage my threat fairly well (mainly via resists lolz) However, i recently picked up the [Blind seers Icon] and the +24 hit off that gave me that little edge i needed to somehow give me problems. I normally wait till about 70-100K threat (totally fight dependent, but lets say a normal tank and spank) to soulshatter. But its getting to the point now where im having to pause 6-10 secs every bolt or dot like an affliction lock for the first 30K of the fight. I then slowly open up and get a string of 7-8K shadowbolts and immediately end up on the tanks butt with aggro. With all the multiple tank swap fights in BT this has gotten very annoying.

It used to be that i was #1 on dmg by 100K. Now i'm #3-6 because i have to sit down and play poker in between spells so i dont rip aggro. I'm about to regem for +dmg and reduce my crit. I dont want to, but i feel it may be my only option. ISP is my only friend :*(

Any suggestions? I've been crunching numbers and still no answers.
#1084SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Xus
I wonder if the build below would work in BT/hyjal. i know that most locks in T6 content are DS/SnF spec due to the horrible scaling of afflic tree. but since i dont wanna go stick to that single button spam spec til blizz can be bothered to fix it. So i wanna try this one out.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

yup, i plan to use succubus as a source of dps as well, i tried felguard raiding before as well and most fights in BT/Hyjal are either impossible for pets(Archimonde, Naj'entus etc) , or just very easy. With the exception of illidari council where luck decides everything.
I wonder how much dps can a succubus of afflic lock do with the imp.LoP talent ? i dont expect it to be high but i think that surely is better than just having an imp out there waiting to be dark pacted. Although with this build it's perfectly possible to use imp as well in those totally impossible fight for pets.
would like some comments plz
#1085SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Weikin
Would rather put 2 points from impr LoP into Destructive Reach.


And this is a common 41-0-20 build, nothing special at all.
#1086SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by Weikin View Post
Would rather put 2 points from impr LoP into Destructive Reach.


And this is a common 41-0-20 build, nothing special at all.
LoP consumes ISB charges. Do not use it if you like your fellow warlocks :P
#1087SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2rochan
Originally Posted by ravenlust View Post
I've got an issue that i'd gladly take some advice on. Please dont give me the "Dps Less" either -_-.

Im a Shadowbolt Turret, through and through. Destro lock with T5 and BT/Mh gear.

I'm sitting at:

1347 Shadow Damage with Fel armor (no succy sac or shadow and flame)
193 (15.3%) hit
22.99% crit

Its nothing great, but it works. Compared to other casters my gear is equal if not slightly lower in comparison. I've always been able to manage my threat fairly well (mainly via resists lolz) However, i recently picked up the [Blind seers Icon] and the +24 hit off that gave me that little edge i needed to somehow give me problems. I normally wait till about 70-100K threat (totally fight dependent, but lets say a normal tank and spank) to soulshatter. But its getting to the point now where im having to pause 6-10 secs every bolt or dot like an affliction lock for the first 30K of the fight. I then slowly open up and get a string of 7-8K shadowbolts and immediately end up on the tanks butt with aggro. With all the multiple tank swap fights in BT this has gotten very annoying.

It used to be that i was #1 on dmg by 100K. Now i'm #3-6 because i have to sit down and play poker in between spells so i dont rip aggro. I'm about to regem for +dmg and reduce my crit. I dont want to, but i feel it may be my only option. ISP is my only friend :*(

Any suggestions? I've been crunching numbers and still no answers.
Threat capping shouldn't be this big of an issue. Keep in mind you can go up to 130%. Only fights I find where threat is an issue are lol Reaver & Bloodboil, occasionally RoS. On most other fights, I keep a ~7k threat buffer and a soulshatter at ~70% will suffice.

Only other thing I can say is that your tank needs to get more threat.
#1088SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2tdog
I'm sure this has been covered but sifting through 44 pages and all the other posts seems silly when the question I would think is simple for a few of the experts on here to answer.

I have been running as an UA lock for some time and collecting the gear necessary to switch to the 0/21/40 build. With my current gear collection I can easily exceed 202 hit rating. Realistically I can reach 250 with gear choices. Question is at what point do I stop worrying about crit and spend the time getting gems to focus on spell damage? I can hit 20% crit with gear with no trouble and that doesn't include the 5% of crit from Devastation. So basically is there a point where I should leave crit alone and focuse on increasing my spell damage? I sit around 1100-1200 unbuffed in shadow damage. I do have the full shadoweave set but am wondering if it's time to let it go or since the Shadow damage is so good should i change the gems to crit and continue to use them? I do have Boots of Blasting and Illidari Shoulderpads to replace 2 of the shadoweave sets and was thinking I would pick up Robe of Hateful Echoes off Hydross if it drops to replace the 3rd pc.

Thanks in advance

If you look me up on armory I am in my pvp gear (obviously) and pvp spec.
#1089SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stran
Originally Posted by tdog View Post
I'm sure this has been covered but sifting through 44 pages and all the other posts seems silly when the question I would think is simple for a few of the experts on here to answer.

I have been running as an UA lock for some time and collecting the gear necessary to switch to the 0/21/40 build. With my current gear collection I can easily exceed 202 hit rating. Realistically I can reach 250 with gear choices. Question is at what point do I stop worrying about crit and spend the time getting gems to focus on spell damage? I can hit 20% crit with gear with no trouble and that doesn't include the 5% of crit from Devastation. So basically is there a point where I should leave crit alone and focuse on increasing my spell damage? I sit around 1100-1200 unbuffed in shadow damage. I do have the full shadoweave set but am wondering if it's time to let it go or since the Shadow damage is so good should i change the gems to crit and continue to use them? I do have Boots of Blasting and Illidari Shoulderpads to replace 2 of the shadoweave sets and was thinking I would pick up Robe of Hateful Echoes off Hydross if it drops to replace the 3rd pc.

Thanks in advance

If you look me up on armory I am in my pvp gear (obviously) and pvp spec.
The answer is as simple as "download the spreadsheet and plug in your numbers"

The spreadsheet will calculate the value of damage, crit, hit, +shadow and haste for you.

A lot of people like you have this misconception that you max hit first then you need 25% crit then this then that.

None of that is exactly true. The ONLY truth is this. Hit, until caped, is worth the most in terms of DPS gained. Damage is second. Then things get blurry depending on your gear level. However, choosing between an item with 20 hit and 40 damage and an item with 80 damage is not really hard. 80 damage wins by far. So you never focus or one or the other. Damage is almost always (if not always) better than crit. And hit is always better than damage until you are caped. But items do not come tailor made. Also keep in mind that an item with +crit, +hit and +damage is better itemized than one with just +damage, as it makes better use of the item level. This is due to the fact that the cost of next stat is more than the previous point of the same stat. So, 40 str 40 int item would be lower ilevel than 80 sta or 80 str item.

Bottom line, get the spreadsheet, it's an invaluable tool.
#1090SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
ravenlust
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
Threat capping shouldn't be this big of an issue. Keep in mind you can go up to 130%. Only fights I find where threat is an issue are lol Reaver & Bloodboil, occasionally RoS. On most other fights, I keep a ~7k threat buffer and a soulshatter at ~70% will suffice.

Only other thing I can say is that your tank needs to get more threat.

Yea, im at the point of finding some nub guild and getting an AQ40 run for a fetish of the sand reaver. lolz


It's more or less the huge jumps in threat due to the massive numbers that i put up. A constant stream like a fire mage for example, would be easy to maintain the 130%. But i need to keep ~90% since at any given time ive got 2 bolts in the air, and will buffs/consumables i can pop 2 9K shadowbolts and become the new main tank. I may not have it long enough to pull, but i may have it long enough to screw the tank out of the immunity from an ability.

Last edited by ravenlust : 01/21/08 at 6:22 PM.
#1091SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Gofa
Originally Posted by ravenlust View Post
Yea, im at the point of finding some nub guild and getting an AQ40 run for a fetish of the sand reaver. lolz


It's more or less the huge jumps in threat due to the massive numbers that i put up. A constant stream like a fire mage for example, would be easy to maintain the 130%. But i need to keep ~90% since at any given time ive got 2 bolts in the air, and will buffs/consumables i can pop 2 9K shadowbolts and become the new main tank. I may not have it long enough to pull, but i may have it long enough to screw the tank out of the immunity from an ability.

Hm try to use soulshatter as late as possible, talk to your tanks so that they will try to put more TPS, use MD multiple times and tell your healers to give your tank more healing aggro (PoM i.e.). Other than that.. if you get a shamy, tell him to drop a tranquil air totem.


Threat really shouldn't be an issue. If your tank will do ~1000tps (should be possible for a bt tank on a bossfight) you will need 1300tps to over-aggro. Taking salvation + 10% less aggro (because of talents) into account... we will have

your TPS = Damage x 0.63


In order to gain aggro, you will need 1300 tps

1300 = D x 0.63
D = 2063.49....



So if you have a 1000tps tank, you will have to do more than 2000dps to pull aggro (assuming salvation) and you still have soulshatter. Maybe your tank is doing something wrong, but there really shouldn't be an issue with aggro.
#1092SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Gumibear
Originally Posted by tdog View Post
I'm sure this has been covered but sifting through 44 pages and all the other posts seems silly when the question I would think is simple for a few of the experts on here to answer.

I have been running as an UA lock for some time and collecting the gear necessary to switch to the 0/21/40 build. With my current gear collection I can easily exceed 202 hit rating. Realistically I can reach 250 with gear choices. Question is at what point do I stop worrying about crit and spend the time getting gems to focus on spell damage? I can hit 20% crit with gear with no trouble and that doesn't include the 5% of crit from Devastation. So basically is there a point where I should leave crit alone and focuse on increasing my spell damage? I sit around 1100-1200 unbuffed in shadow damage. I do have the full shadoweave set but am wondering if it's time to let it go or since the Shadow damage is so good should i change the gems to crit and continue to use them? I do have Boots of Blasting and Illidari Shoulderpads to replace 2 of the shadoweave sets and was thinking I would pick up Robe of Hateful Echoes off Hydross if it drops to replace the 3rd pc.

Thanks in advance

If you look me up on armory I am in my pvp gear (obviously) and pvp spec.
Magic numbers (25% crit, 1200 spell damage, etc.) generally don't work. You really need to evaluate the DPS increase from each new piece of gear. You can try to do the math, or you can use the spreadsheet everyone talks about to do the math for you. 1 spell damage may be better than 1 spell crit. That doesn't tell you anything about the value of 5 spell damage vs. 8 spell crit. All values are relative to how much of each stat you already have, so there's no universal truths.
#1093SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2PSGarak
Since it seems to come up about every three pages on average, let me explain an important thing about gear scaling.

Hokay, so, let's say you have 15% crit and 1500 shadow damage, which is unreasonably low crit for that damage level. People will often ask, what crit should I shoot for before working on damage again? The answer is the amount of crit until the dmg:crit ratio is about 1:1 again in the spreadsheet that we tell everyone to look at.
HOWEVER, there is an important thing here that most people don't seem to realize. How much damage should you now stack before going back to crit? About one. Yes, one spell damage. Then crit becomes favorable again and you should go back to stacking crit rating. For one whole crit rating. And so on. Every so often you will want two instead of one, but the point stands. You have not reached the point where crit is less good than damage, you have reached the point where it is as good as damage, and you now focus on both, not on one.

In short: If you're asking about threshold values for your gear, you're doing it wrong. Unlike hit rating, there is no point where crit magically goes from awesome to useless. The idea of "build to 25% crit and then do damage" is wrong, and not just because of the number 25 (which is too high anyways). The idea is actually "your gear favors damage to crit at 1:0.75, so you should look for gear that prefers damage over crit, regardless of what absolute values you're looking at."
#1094SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jaeydn
Originally Posted by ravenlust View Post
I've got an issue that i'd gladly take some advice on. Please dont give me the "Dps Less" either -_-.

Im a Shadowbolt Turret, through and through. Destro lock with T5 and BT/Mh gear.

I'm sitting at:

1347 Shadow Damage with Fel armor (no succy sac or shadow and flame)
193 (15.3%) hit
22.99% crit

Its nothing great, but it works. Compared to other casters my gear is equal if not slightly lower in comparison. I've always been able to manage my threat fairly well (mainly via resists lolz) However, i recently picked up the [Blind seers Icon] and the +24 hit off that gave me that little edge i needed to somehow give me problems. I normally wait till about 70-100K threat (totally fight dependent, but lets say a normal tank and spank) to soulshatter. But its getting to the point now where im having to pause 6-10 secs every bolt or dot like an affliction lock for the first 30K of the fight. I then slowly open up and get a string of 7-8K shadowbolts and immediately end up on the tanks butt with aggro. With all the multiple tank swap fights in BT this has gotten very annoying.

It used to be that i was #1 on dmg by 100K. Now i'm #3-6 because i have to sit down and play poker in between spells so i dont rip aggro. I'm about to regem for +dmg and reduce my crit. I dont want to, but i feel it may be my only option. ISP is my only friend :*(

Any suggestions? I've been crunching numbers and still no answers.
I've been facing the same issues lately, and I had to break out the Eye of Diminution form the bank. Otherwise my dps suffered terribly from sky rocketing in threat too soon into a fight then I'd have to sit on my hands and end up so far behind that It was hard to close the gap. What infuriates me even more is when I souls shatter only to climb right back up to where I was in threat in no time. The same seems to be for the other lock I raid with since we got 4 pc. T6.
#1095SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
Threat capping shouldn't be this big of an issue. Keep in mind you can go up to 130%. Only fights I find where threat is an issue are lol Reaver & Bloodboil, occasionally RoS. On most other fights, I keep a ~7k threat buffer and a soulshatter at ~70% will suffice.

Only other thing I can say is that your tank needs to get more threat.
I'd have to agree with this. I only have threat problems on these 2 fights (although I have a tremendous threat issue on RoS p2 on Ome which I haven't figured out).

To give you some numbers, this is the highest DPS I have ever done on a single target fight, and I finished at about 98% of tank threat or so (after shattering), so I still had a way to go. There are plenty of other WWSes of locks doing more damage than me as well.
#1096SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Emolate
I just moved from 0/21/40 to 0/40/21 mainly to compensate for Tank aggro. Plus, my party-mates like having a 3/3 Imp in the group a lot, and I enjoy threat reduction and more Shadow Damage than I had before.

My DPS time is way low otherwise, because I end up sitting around waiting for room for a Shadow Bolt or Immolate.
#1097SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Emolate View Post
My DPS time is way low otherwise, because I end up sitting around waiting for room for a Shadow Bolt or Immolate.
Your tank needs help. Using Curse of Reck and get Hunters to use Misdirect.

In addition, you can use lower ranks of shadow bolt so you don't get too much threat at the start (I use rank 8 for that).
#1098SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3weet
From the 'fake' patch notes posted on worldofraids boards.. (Worldofraids forums :: 2.4 on EU PTR)

- Incinerate: The cast time has been increased to 3 sec, from 2.5 sec.
- Bane: This talent now also reduces the cast time of Incinerate, but no longer reduces the cast time of Soulfire.

Assuming that this change was made, what kind of effect would it have upon fire vs shadow scaling? I do not know how to test this properly myself, but thought it was worth bringing up.. seeing as such a change is probably likely at some point in the future (in my opinion).

Given that currently the difference as quoted from page 1 of this thread is

"Incinerate and Shadowbolt gain the same from spell damage in a standard raid environnment, the only differences are ISB vs better mana efficiency (and ISB > mana efficiency).

Base coefficients :
SB : 85.6%
Inci : 71.4%

In a desctruction build, both SB and Inci gain +20% from S&F, fire gets x110% from emberstorm. And in a standard raid environnment, SB gets x110% from shadow weaving, inci gets x115% from improved scorch.

SB : (85.6+20)*1.10 = 116,16
Inci : (71.4+20)*1.15*1.10 = 115.62"

With a same base coefficient from casting time, incinerate would go up to 133.58 which seems quite substancial. as well as added gained mana efficiency.

Obviously a huge factor is improved shadowbolt, but there from first thoughts I would guess that assuming you already have say 1 40/0/21 lock, and another 0/21/40 shadow lock keeping Imp.SB up a decent amount of the time for themselves and the shadow priests, a fire lock would see good results which would be a net benefit overall. Luckily for us, the only talent needed to be dropped from a traditional shadowbolt turret build would be Cataclysm allowing one to adapt to the current raid makeup easily regardless.
#1099SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Ammanas
Originally Posted by Weikin View Post
Hello guys,


I'm rather new here and could use some advice on some upgrades. Our guild is currently raiding SSC 3/6 and ZA 6/6 and we began raiding TK 1/4 aswell.

I'm still working on my hit gear but was wondering if some of the following items I will post are concidering a (major) upgrade:

Cowl of the Grand Engineer - Items - World of Warcraft OR Hood of Hexing - Items - World of Warcraft to replace my Spellstrike Hood

Blade of Twisted Visions - Items - World of Warcraft Haste ftw?

Hex Shrunken Head - Items - World of Warcraft Dont I need the hit from the Scryer trinket?

Cord of Screaming Terrors - Items - World of Warcraft to replace the belt

Which should be the next upgrade for FSW ? Chest that drops off Hydross?

What about my OH? I do need the hit, so I wont replace it by Orb of the Soul Eater will I ?


I need some advice ^^


Armory link: The World of Warcraft Armory
I wouldn't waste DKP on the belt, the Belt of Blasting is better and with your guild regularly doing SSC/TK it should be pretty easy to get the vortexes. For the Helm, the Hood of Hexing is better (tons of hit) and would probably be "free" (I'm assuming you don't use DKP for 10 mans). That trinket is a best in slot item for a warlock (along with the Illidan one), you would certainly want to take it if it dropped. You can always regem or switch some other things around to get more hit.

As far as the mainhand, the sword is nice but I consider the Dragonhawk dagger/Leo sword to be better - and theres always the S2 mainhand (225 damage and nice +hit, pretty easy to get). For the offhand, I'm assuming you're using the Kara one with damage/hit - I would say go with the Orb of the Soul Eater. Its just so much more damage. Yes, you should prioritize hit - but only to a certain degree, you shouldn't be completely gimping your spell damage (especially if you are affliction where you have suppression to help you out). As far as FSW, T5 robe would be nice since apparently you are in desperate need of hit.

I couldn't see your armory for your spec/gear, so this is all just based off of what you said in your post. This is just general advice, the truth is you need to use the spreadsheet and evaluate each gear/gemming/enchanting choice in regards to your own current stats/spec.

Last edited by Ammanas : 01/22/08 at 8:59 PM.
#1100SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ammanas
Originally Posted by ravenlust View Post
Yea, im at the point of finding some nub guild and getting an AQ40 run for a fetish of the sand reaver. lolz


It's more or less the huge jumps in threat due to the massive numbers that i put up. A constant stream like a fire mage for example, would be easy to maintain the 130%. But i need to keep ~90% since at any given time ive got 2 bolts in the air, and will buffs/consumables i can pop 2 9K shadowbolts and become the new main tank. I may not have it long enough to pull, but i may have it long enough to screw the tank out of the immunity from an ability.
You need to know which encounters its safe to be in the 100-129% range and which encounters its not. General rule of thumb: if the boss never de-aggroes, for lack of a better word, the tank (IE: Rage/Teron) you are fine to be above him, you will never pull aggro (as long as you are under 130). Keep in mind, randomly targetting someone to cast a spell (Ice Bolt/Shadow of Death) is not de-aggroing the tank. On fights where the boss completely de-aggroes the tank (IE Bloodboil going to Fel Rage and them coming back into P1) it is not safe, when the boss goes back to his normal state he will go to the highest person on the threat list.
#1101SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3witchedwiz
a little question..
at the moment as destro shadow i'm sitting at 1340ish (incl flask+wizard oil.. excluded shammy ofc i never get one :P), 29,60% crit (incl deva), 202 spell hit...
i'm still using spellstrike hood..
currently i get to choose between t5 helm, hood of hexing and cowl of high engineer... granted that i don't have the time to raid za after lunch, what should i go after (unless i'm lucky and get in a late night ZA), cowl of the high engineer or t5 helm?
#1102SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3moghed
Originally Posted by Ammanas View Post
You need to know which encounters its safe to be in the 100-129% range and which encounters its not. General rule of thumb: if the boss never de-aggroes, for lack of a better word, the tank (IE: Rage/Teron) you are fine to be above him, you will never pull aggro (as long as you are under 130).
Is this true? I was under the impression that on Teron, the only player that couldn't be targeted for shadow of death was the person at the top of the agro list.

Originally Posted by witchedwiz

a little question..
at the moment as destro shadow i'm sitting at 1340ish (incl flask+wizard oil.. excluded shammy ofc i never get one :P), 29,60% crit (incl deva), 202 spell hit...
i'm still using spellstrike hood..
currently i get to choose between t5 helm, hood of hexing and cowl of high engineer... granted that i don't have the time to raid za after lunch, what should i go after (unless i'm lucky and get in a late night ZA), cowl of the high engineer or t5 helm?
Use the spreadsheet.
#1103SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3fip
If you are under 2 pieces of t5 I would grab the t5 helm just because the 2 piece has random rare utilities. Otherwise just grab the VW helm.
#1104SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by moghed View Post
Is this true? I was under the impression that on Teron, the only player that couldn't be targeted for shadow of death was the person at the top of the agro list.
No, that's the current target (ie main tank if you're at 129% threat).

I believe Prince is the only encounter where you need to stay below 100%, and only for the first 2 phases. After that, you're free to burn to the 129% mark.
#1105SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shadorn
Originally Posted by witchedwiz View Post
a little question..
at the moment as destro shadow i'm sitting at 1340ish (incl flask+wizard oil.. excluded shammy ofc i never get one :P), 29,60% crit (incl deva), 202 spell hit...
i'm still using spellstrike hood..
currently i get to choose between t5 helm, hood of hexing and cowl of high engineer... granted that i don't have the time to raid za after lunch, what should i go after (unless i'm lucky and get in a late night ZA), cowl of the high engineer or t5 helm?
With the golden rule of course being to consult a spreadsheet, personally i'd choose the t5 helm for the SB scaling when socketed with a [Chaotic Skyfire Diamond]. This would of course cost you spell hit given your current gear, so that's something to consider also.
#1106SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Sardaukar
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
No, that's the current target (ie main tank if you're at 129% threat).

I believe Prince is the only encounter where you need to stay below 100%, and only for the first 2 phases. After that, you're free to burn to the 129% mark.
Archimonde's air burst is the same as Prince I believe.
#1107SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3PSGarak
Originally Posted by weet View Post
From the 'fake' patch notes posted on worldofraids boards.. (Worldofraids forums :: 2.4 on EU PTR)

- Incinerate: The cast time has been increased to 3 sec, from 2.5 sec.
- Bane: This talent now also reduces the cast time of Incinerate, but no longer reduces the cast time of Soulfire.

Assuming that this change was made, what kind of effect would it have upon fire vs shadow scaling? I do not know how to test this properly myself, but thought it was worth bringing up.. seeing as such a change is probably likely at some point in the future (in my opinion).
Incinerate scaling would simply trade improved shadowbolt for emberstorm, and shadow weaving for improved schorch. You would need around 75% ISB uptime for shadowbolt to scale better, but incinerate also has better base damage when immolate is up. The question is whether or not having to cast immolate screws the spec. You also force five trash talent point to emberstorm, and probably another five to improved immolate, which might screw you out of backlash, killing another 3% scaling. Also, at least one warlock would have to remain shadow to keep ISB up on the target for the shadow priests. It would likely end up being the affliction warlock, which will result in lower ISB uptime overall, and a net raid damage decrease.

Total result: Personal and Raid DPS loss unless you have fire mages and no shadow priests, and all your warlocks do it at once, maybe (depending on immo and base damage). Adding in the conflag change, fire-destro becomes a PvP-dps spec. Which does not necessarily mean a PvP-viable spec.

Putting incinerate on bane is necessary imo, but probably not sufficient in any capacity without more fire-specific changes (unless maybe it stays 2.5s casting time, 2.0s with bane). And I'm personally convinced the patch notes are fake, although they're getting better at it.
#1108SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Yes, patch notes look fake.

If it were true, I think fire would become viable in raids. Higher base damage, lower mana cost, 10% bonus from emberstorm vs ISB, and 15% imp scorch vs 10% shadow weaving. It would be a lot closer and depending on raid setup. I'm not sure how Incinerate works with other people's immolates, though

It would probably still be inferior under most raiding circumstances. But it wouldn't be the complete joke it is now.


Also, it's way prettier.


Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
Incinerate scaling would simply trade improved shadowbolt for emberstorm, and shadow weaving for improved schorch. You would need around 75% ISB uptime for shadowbolt to scale better, but incinerate also has better base damage when immolate is up. The question is whether or not having to cast immolate screws the spec. You also force five trash talent point to emberstorm, and probably another five to improved immolate, which might screw you out of backlash, killing another 3% scaling. Also, at least one warlock would have to remain shadow to keep ISB up on the target for the shadow priests. It would likely end up being the affliction warlock, which will result in lower ISB uptime overall, and a net raid damage decrease.

Total result: Personal and Raid DPS loss unless you have fire mages and no shadow priests, and all your warlocks do it at once, maybe (depending on immo and base damage). Adding in the conflag change, fire-destro becomes a PvP-dps spec. Which does not necessarily mean a PvP-viable spec.

Putting incinerate on bane is necessary imo, but probably not sufficient in any capacity without more fire-specific changes (unless maybe it stays 2.5s casting time, 2.0s with bane). And I'm personally convinced the patch notes are fake, although they're getting better at it.
#1109SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Suggestive
It works with any immolate up on the target (unlike conflag).
#1110SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shaby
Hello all.

I've been browsing these forums a lot lately and have gathered some very useful information.

I play an affliction warlock and will probably continue to do so since spamming SB's gets boring really fast for me.
We've managed to clear all current content and still I have this question popping up.
Viability of immolate was always questionable.

I usually use CoS -> UA-> Corr ->siphon life -> immolate (only on encounters which require a lot of moving; Archimonde)
after I've applied all my debufs I start casting SB's. And from here on I reaply my debufs and spam SB's when I can.

I was wondering would it pay off to switch Immolate for Siphon life?
Is there anything wrong with my DPS cycle (I personally am not satisfied with my own output)?

Thanks for all the comments.
#1111SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Silaine
I got my second piece of tier 5 yesterday and specced demo immediately. I still don't have VST, but I'm keen to try out demo anyway.

The World of Warcraft Armory

I am not sure if I should spec instant corruption and leave the destructive reach and 2% crit from devastate. Or if I should leave points out of demonic resilience for mana feed and put the extra points into devastate.

Any advice?

PS We are starting MH tonight.
#1112SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Silaine View Post
I got my second piece of tier 5 yesterday and specced demo immediately. I still don't have VST, but I'm keen to try out demo anyway.

The World of Warcraft Armory

I am not sure if I should spec instant corruption and leave the destructive reach and 2% crit from devastate. Or if I should leave points out of demonic resilience for mana feed and put the extra points into devastate.

Any advice?

PS We are starting MH tonight.
Your profile hasn't updated yet, you're listed as affliction. I recommend the builds listed in the compendium, obviously. Instant corruption doesn't seem all that useful to me, given the amount of talent points it costs you.
#1113SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stran
Originally Posted by Silaine View Post
I got my second piece of tier 5 yesterday and specced demo immediately. I still don't have VST, but I'm keen to try out demo anyway.

The World of Warcraft Armory

I am not sure if I should spec instant corruption and leave the destructive reach and 2% crit from devastate. Or if I should leave points out of demonic resilience for mana feed and put the extra points into devastate.

Any advice?

PS We are starting MH tonight.
Instant corruption is nice, but for a PVE build I sugest getting destructive reach. It's far too valuable on some fights such as Azgalor. Casting corruption is fine and I do it. 1 point would help to make it a 1.6 sec cast, but you just can't find the point as Demonic resilience is more valuable, so is mana feed and destructive reach.
#1114SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lianya
Leo tanking.

I just wanted to say thanks for all the information around tanking Leo, from spec ideas to the actually timing of spells during the fight. Our guild got him on the 2nd try (got the enrage on the first attempt), and using CoD for threat, etc, was magic.

This board is really a tremendous source of info, and I just wanted to say thank you to you guys for taking the time to help.
#1115SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gremmik
Gear for Leo

I was wondering if anyone could post a link for the gear they used to get the 225 FR. I have searched a little on the net and on youtube and haven't been able to find a defined list.
#1116SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bogeywoman
infernoweave - Wowhead Search
#1117SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lianya
Originally Posted by Gremmik View Post
I was wondering if anyone could post a link for the gear they used to get the 225 FR. I have searched a little on the net and on youtube and haven't been able to find a defined list.
Get the Infernoweave badge items (100 Badges), link above. You then only need 25 more FR to get capped (assuming correct build). You can get this a couple of ways. You can use the Leatherworking patch applied to the 4 pieces of FR gear to add another 32 FR, but I chose to slap as much stam on those instead (150 Health to chest, +12 Stam to boots, and the Leatherworking +40 to Stam item to pants).

The other item I would use to get over the cap, is the FR ring you get from the Trial's quests that culminate by killing Mag. (I will have that item this week). So you would only need to swap out a total of 5 items using that ring, or 4 if you apply the +8 FR patches to the items.

I can provide specific links to the Ring if needed.
#1118SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Yes, patch notes look fake.

If it were true, I think fire would become viable in raids. Higher base damage, lower mana cost, 10% bonus from emberstorm vs ISB, and 15% imp scorch vs 10% shadow weaving. It would be a lot closer and depending on raid setup. I'm not sure how Incinerate works with other people's immolates, though

It would probably still be inferior under most raiding circumstances. But it wouldn't be the complete joke it is now.


Also, it's way prettier.
If Incinerate had the same +damage coefficient as Shadowbolt it would scale better with full raid buffs/debuffs. Also, if you went down that road, the talents chosen make immolate significantly higher DPCT and it is worth keeping up yourself. I tweaked the spreadsheet a bit to mimic the fake release notes and going from Shadow to Fire increased my dps by ~100. TPS is also steadier since you don't get wild crit strings with ISB anymore. And way fewer shards on progression nights
#1119SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Silverstorm
Originally Posted by Lianya View Post
Get the Infernoweave badge items (100 Badges), link above. You then only need 25 more FR to get capped (assuming correct build). You can get this a couple of ways. You can use the Leatherworking patch applied to the 4 pieces of FR gear to add another 32 FR, but I chose to slap as much stam on those instead (150 Health to chest, +12 Stam to boots, and the Leatherworking +40 to Stam item to pants).

The other item I would use to get over the cap, is the FR ring you get from the Trial's quests that culminate by killing Mag. (I will have that item this week). So you would only need to swap out a total of 5 items using that ring, or 4 if you apply the +8 FR patches to the items.

I can provide specific links to the Ring if needed.
Amulet of the Torn-heart - Items - World of Warcraft

FR Neck from the The Cipher of Damnation - Quests - World of Warcraft quest line. This chain also unlocks the Trials quests.

That will get you to 224 FR. The difference between 364 and 365 FR shouldn't be significant enough to matter.
#1120SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Sardaukar
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
If Incinerate had the same +damage coefficient as Shadowbolt it would scale better with full raid buffs/debuffs. Also, if you went down that road, the talents chosen make immolate significantly higher DPCT and it is worth keeping up yourself. I tweaked the spreadsheet a bit to mimic the fake release notes and going from Shadow to Fire increased my dps by ~100. TPS is also steadier since you don't get wild crit strings with ISB anymore. And way fewer shards on progression nights
Hehe sacing imp for free would be nice
#1121SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vinniepaz
Resistances..

Can someone point me to a guide or information that tells me what resistances I should have for the various dungeons.

So far nothing I have run actually needs any res. (Kara, Gruul, just started SSC/TK).

I'd like to be proactive and get it all together rather than reactive and die X runs before I get what I need.

Thanks.
#1122SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Vinniepaz View Post
Can someone point me to a guide or information that tells me what resistances I should have for the various dungeons.

So far nothing I have run actually needs any res. (Kara, Gruul, just started SSC/TK).

I'd like to be proactive and get it all together rather than reactive and die X runs before I get what I need.

Thanks.
Leotheras tanking requires FR gear (3rd boss in SSC)
Mother Shahraz requires Shadow res (9th? boss in BT) for the entire raid. Greenies will do.
#1123SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Zaq
You'll need a capped Fr set for Leo if you're tanking that (365 Buffed), the badge peices are wonderful for this, but a mix of greens probably works. You'll want a partial fr set for kael. And a full shadow set for BT (Much of which can be crafted once you're in t6).
#1124SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Saraa
Originally Posted by ravenlust View Post
I've got an issue that i'd gladly take some advice on. Please dont give me the "Dps Less" either -_-.

Im a Shadowbolt Turret, through and through. Destro lock with T5 and BT/Mh gear.

I'm sitting at:

1347 Shadow Damage with Fel armor (no succy sac or shadow and flame)
193 (15.3%) hit
22.99% crit

Its nothing great, but it works. Compared to other casters my gear is equal if not slightly lower in comparison. I've always been able to manage my threat fairly well (mainly via resists lolz) However, i recently picked up the [Blind seers Icon] and the +24 hit off that gave me that little edge i needed to somehow give me problems. I normally wait till about 70-100K threat (totally fight dependent, but lets say a normal tank and spank) to soulshatter. But its getting to the point now where im having to pause 6-10 secs every bolt or dot like an affliction lock for the first 30K of the fight. I then slowly open up and get a string of 7-8K shadowbolts and immediately end up on the tanks butt with aggro. With all the multiple tank swap fights in BT this has gotten very annoying.

It used to be that i was #1 on dmg by 100K. Now i'm #3-6 because i have to sit down and play poker in between spells so i dont rip aggro. I'm about to regem for +dmg and reduce my crit. I dont want to, but i feel it may be my only option. ISP is my only friend :*(

Any suggestions? I've been crunching numbers and still no answers.

You may enjoy the benefits of Prism of Inner Calm of off Vashj. Sorry that I am unable to make a live link, but it reduces threat from your crits. I am also curious what the community thinks of this item. I won one in a random roll because no one wanted to spend DKP on it. I did a forum search but did not find anything. My gear is not good enough to warrant equipping it at this point, but I think it may be useful down the road. I have also heard rumors that the item may be looked at for a buff.
#1125SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vlar
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Yes, patch notes look fake.

If it were true, I think fire would become viable in raids. Higher base damage, lower mana cost, 10% bonus from emberstorm vs ISB, and 15% imp scorch vs 10% shadow weaving. It would be a lot closer and depending on raid setup. I'm not sure how Incinerate works with other people's immolates, though

It would probably still be inferior under most raiding circumstances. But it wouldn't be the complete joke it is now.


Also, it's way prettier.

What do you think about the idea of adding to ISB to include fire damage and making Incinerate proc it as well? Would it be too powerful with emberstorm?
#1126SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Vlar View Post
What do you think about the idea of adding to ISB to include fire damage and making Incinerate proc it as well? Would it be too powerful with emberstorm?
They'd need to re-fit Mages in response to that. Given that just changing the coefficient on Incinerate pushes it at the level of (or beyond) Shadow... adding another 10-15% damage on top of that isn't likely.
#1127SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
calisti
Originally Posted by Gremmik View Post
I was wondering if anyone could post a link for the gear they used to get the 225 FR. I have searched a little on the net and on youtube and haven't been able to find a defined list.
Here is my current fire resist set for Leotheras the Blind. I actually use a Felguard instead of a Fel Hunter, so I only get +35 resist from master demonologist instead of +70. As such, i had to compensate and add a little more fire resist gear than most people use. The set itself is designed to maximize fire resist and stamina. Most of the non-FR pieces were chosen due to their high stamina values. This actually gives me 23 more fire resist than I need, but I opted to go this route because the fire resist items give more stamina than my normal DPS set.

Head: [Collar of Cho'gall] (Glyph of Power: +22 spell damage / +14 spell hit)
Amulet: [Amulet of the Torn-heart]
Shoulders: [Mantle of the Corruptor] (Greater Orb of Inscription: +12 spell damage / +15 spell crit)
Chest: [Infernoweave Robe] (+150 hp)
Back: [Wyrmcultist's Cloak] (Greater Fire Resist: +15 FR)
Wrists: [Fury of the Ursine] (Spellpower: +15 spell damage)
Gloves: [Infernoweave Gloves] (Spellpower: +20 Spell damage)
Belt: [Nethershard Girdle]
Pants: [Infernoweave Leggings]
Boots: [Infernoweave Boots] (Fortitude: +12 Stamina)
Ring 1:[Phoenix-fire Band]
Ring 2: [Ashyen's Gift]
Trinket 1: [Commander's Badge]
Trinket 2: [Darkmoon Card: Crusade]
Weapon: [Staff of Infinite Mysteries] (Greater Spellpower: +40 spell damage)

Alternate item in case you're missing one of the other fire resist pieces:

Wrists: [Flameheart Bracers]

Last edited by calisti : 01/23/08 at 7:58 PM.
#1128SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shadorn
Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
You'll need a capped Fr set for Leo if you're tanking that (365 Buffed), the badge peices are wonderful for this, but a mix of greens probably works. You'll want a partial fr set for kael. And a full shadow set for BT (Much of which can be crafted once you're in t6).
I've never had a problem tanking Capernian (Kael encounter) with 0 FR, spam heals in phase 1 (get a pally aura if you're struggling) and the mace buff for phase 3 make FR a wasted stat.
#1129SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nicarras
Yeah I used to tank Leo for awhile in the beginning of our SSC days. But towards the end we just threw a feral druid on it in full FR gear and I just dps'd. It seemed easier on the healers for some reason.

Kael'thas, never wear FR you are right, healers should be fine on phase 1 and then in phase 3 it should take 2 healers max to keep you up.
#1130SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3nathanrahl
If ISB affected Incinerate you'd have to loose out on alot of things to get it with a traditional 0/21/40 build so no the dmg difference wouldnt be staggering... i'd assume it would be a choice based on your crit % and loosing imp immolate or semothing to trade for it
#1131SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3legionaus
Question about dot rotation.
i am not sure if this has been asked before but i wanted to know what spell rotation locks use?

Affliction 41/0/20
UA > Corruption > siphon Life > Agony > spam SB > reapply as they fall off, and SB when not dotting.

when i was affliction that would be my rotation. i wasn't sure if anyone had done any theorycrafting for the highest dps dot rotation?

Destro build 0/21/40
COD > corruption > immolate > Spam shadow bold and reapply cod when it falls off.
#1132SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Nicarras
Optimal Aff Lock Rotation I found was.

(curse) UA -> Corr -> Immo -> SL, then SB filler

Optimal Dest (0/21/40) Rotation is.

(curse) SB, refresh curse when neeeded, LT when needed.

Use the spreadsheet you find for Dest, casting anything other than curse+sb turns into less dps.

Last edited by Nicarras : 01/24/08 at 12:54 AM.
#1133SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gumibear
Originally Posted by nathanrahl View Post
If ISB affected Incinerate you'd have to loose out on alot of things to get it with a traditional 0/21/40 build so no the dmg difference wouldnt be staggering... i'd assume it would be a choice based on your crit % and loosing imp immolate or semothing to trade for it
If 1 Warlock's Immolate works for all Warlocks as stated earlier, a raid could have one Warlock designated as the Immolate bitch. Though I'm pretty sure the benefit of ISB-for-fire damage and the other crit talents would outweigh the benefit of Improved Immolate if one had to choose.
#1134SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Talosh
Originally Posted by Silaine View Post
I got my second piece of tier 5 yesterday and specced demo immediately. I still don't have VST, but I'm keen to try out demo anyway.

The World of Warcraft Armory

I am not sure if I should spec instant corruption and leave the destructive reach and 2% crit from devastate. Or if I should leave points out of demonic resilience for mana feed and put the extra points into devastate.

Any advice?

PS We are starting MH tonight.
For pure PvE the spec you choose is the best for Demo.
Since I am doing a bit of PvP too and am too greedy to respec I have 6/44/11.
Sure it results in less DPS, but the main aspect is to learn to keep your felguard alive.
You'll notice later on, that some encounters are not playable as a Demo (e.g. Najentus and Kaz'rogal),
but demo is much more fun than the simple SB-spam.
#1135SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Eternal One
Greetings my fellow warlocks.

Please advice - what kind of gear upgrades should I consider for my character? Currently Our guild is farming SSC/TK. Also, I'm at the point quite satisfied with my damage output (top 1-2 dps is enough for me . Will item upgrades from SSC/TK be worth the time and dkp spent farming them? Difference seems negligible.

The World of Warcraft Armory

My thoughts:
[Boots of the Shifting Nightmare]
[Mantle of the Corruptor]
[Robe of Hateful Echoes] (probably not going to get Robe from Vashj, should I wait for T5 or get this one?)
[Nathrezim Mindblade] and [Orb of the Soul-Eater]
Should I consider T5 helm or [Cowl of the Grand Engineer]. Or there's almost no difference? Should I even consider them if I have a [Spellstrike Hood]?
#1136SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Fafhrd
Re Demonology in MH: If a guild is truly serious about progression in T6 content, I don't see how a demo warlock would have a place. You want one affliction warlock and the rest specced for max dps, i.e. DS/S&F. Demo is also a problem when learning the "hardest" encounters on MH/BT - where you don't need the distraction of keeping a pet alive/resummon etc.
#1137SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Talosh
Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
Re Demonology in MH: If a guild is truly serious about progression in T6 content, I don't see how a demo warlock would have a place. You want one affliction warlock and the rest specced for max dps, i.e. DS/S&F. Demo is also a problem when learning the "hardest" encounters on MH/BT - where you don't need the distraction of keeping a pet alive/resummon etc.
Depends. For trashmobs Demo is better for CC of the Necromancer since the Felguard can intercept one of their shadowbolts. For the gargoyles which the warlocks pulls them to the zombies for AoE you get less damage with Soul Link and keep your pet alive with the DoTs.
And especially fights like Archimonde and Illidan are absolutely no dps race. The main aspect is to stay alive and you can absorb more damage with soul link, your pet needs no healing because of the T5 bonus.
For encounters like Bloodboil you have the advantage to burst more dps with the felguard because you produce less aggro.

But in general you are right, with destro my dps is higher, but since we have both instances on farm, the pure sb-spam got a bit boring for me.
#1138SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Crepe
Originally Posted by Nicarras View Post
Yeah I used to tank Leo for awhile in the beginning of our SSC days. But towards the end we just threw a feral druid on it in full FR gear and I just dps'd. It seemed easier on the healers for some reason.

Kael'thas, never wear FR you are right, healers should be fine on phase 1 and then in phase 3 it should take 2 healers max to keep you up.
Druid likely has more HP due to bear scaling. We had the same issue: I was high-threat, but hard to heal (smaller HP pool, bigger chance of one-shot). Our prot paladin took over and was way easier to heal (reduced magic damage, higher HP, self-bubble to remove debuff stack at 15%), but less threat as a result.
#1139SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Yes, that is correct. Bears typically are more reliable, having more hp. Warlocks tanking on Leo can work, but plenty of people choose to use other classes to tank the demon.
#1140SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Eternal One View Post
Greetings my fellow warlocks.

Please advice - what kind of gear upgrades should I consider for my character? Currently Our guild is farming SSC/TK. Also, I'm at the point quite satisfied with my damage output (top 1-2 dps is enough for me . Will item upgrades from SSC/TK be worth the time and dkp spent farming them? Difference seems negligible.

The World of Warcraft Armory

My thoughts:
[Boots of the Shifting Nightmare]
[Mantle of the Corruptor]
[Robe of Hateful Echoes] (probably not going to get Robe from Vashj, should I wait for T5 or get this one?)
[Nathrezim Mindblade] and [Orb of the Soul-Eater]
Should I consider T5 helm or [Cowl of the Grand Engineer]. Or there's almost no difference? Should I even consider them if I have a [Spellstrike Hood]?
Most upgrades in SSC/TK are usually comparable to gear you have. The boots of the shifting nightmare and Vashj robes tend to be exceptions.

Last edited by Arelenda : 01/24/08 at 4:12 PM.
#1141SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nicarras
Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
Re Demonology in MH: If a guild is truly serious about progression in T6 content, I don't see how a demo warlock would have a place. You want one affliction warlock and the rest specced for max dps, i.e. DS/S&F. Demo is also a problem when learning the "hardest" encounters on MH/BT - where you don't need the distraction of keeping a pet alive/resummon etc.
We will use one Demo lock occasionally, but he still beats most of the Mages so I think we'll let it go.
#1142SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ammanas
Originally Posted by Eternal One View Post
Greetings my fellow warlocks.

Please advice - what kind of gear upgrades should I consider for my character? Currently Our guild is farming SSC/TK. Also, I'm at the point quite satisfied with my damage output (top 1-2 dps is enough for me . Will item upgrades from SSC/TK be worth the time and dkp spent farming them? Difference seems negligible.

The World of Warcraft Armory

My thoughts:
[Boots of the Shifting Nightmare]
[Mantle of the Corruptor]
[Robe of Hateful Echoes] (probably not going to get Robe from Vashj, should I wait for T5 or get this one?)
[Nathrezim Mindblade] and [Orb of the Soul-Eater]
Should I consider T5 helm or [Cowl of the Grand Engineer]. Or there's almost no difference? Should I even consider them if I have a [Spellstrike Hood]?
Use the spreadsheet! Not being a dick, but honestly plugging your stats/gear/spec into a program that does all of the correct math for you is going to get better results than asking on a forum and getting responses from idiots like me. I will say this: the Vashj robe is THE best chest in the game (and the only SSC/TK piece you will never replace), so if you want to think on those terms most definitely save DKP for it. Since you're guild is farming T5 content I'm assuming you're going to be starting Bt/Hyjal soon, so you might want to keep in mind what items are easily replacable from there and which items are not. For example the only robes that drop come from Archimonde and Illidan, so you probably won't be seeing those for awhile.

Spreadsheet link: WoW Warlock DPS Spreadsheet by Leulier
#1143SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Eternal One
Well, basicly the Spreadsheet says:
1) don't ever stack crit
2) don't stack haste until 1500 sSPD.
3) stack hit until 16.

#1144SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3TheSorcerer
I'm raidleader in a guild currently progressing through MH and BT. Recently I had a discussion with our warlocks about the benefit of Malediction. We have an affliction warlock for providing imp to our tanks and debuffing bosses with Shadow Embrace. All of the other warlocks are specced to destruction (0/21/40). Currently or destrcution locks provide CoS, CoR and CoE. Our warlocks argue, that an affliction Warlock using CoA will loose too much dps if speccing Malediction and using CoS instead. However, this seemed very odd to me, so I made the numbers and want to get some feedback here if I'm correct and might missed something.

I used our latest TK raid for numbers (yes, alot of stuff went wrongt that night). Our affliction lock (Psyckoo) gets about 200 dps from using a specced CoA. One of our destruction locks used CoD a few times and got about 160 dps from it (roughly 10k hits). That's mere 40 dps difference, thus a from Malediction improved CoS would only need to provide a 40 dps increase to have it be applied by an affliction lock instead of a destruction lock. Well, our Voidreaver kill that night had more than 4,5k shadow and arcane dps, that would sum up to more than 130 dps gain from Malediction.

My conclusion: having CoS with Malediction applied by an affliction warlock instead of a destruction warlock which uses CoD for dps instead will increase raid dps. Am I right?
#1145SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Eternal One
Originally Posted by TheSorcerer View Post
I'm raidleader in a guild currently progressing through MH and BT. Recently I had a discussion with our warlocks about the benefit of Malediction. We have an affliction warlock for providing imp to our tanks and debuffing bosses with Shadow Embrace. All of the other warlocks are specced to destruction (0/21/40). Currently or destrcution locks provide CoS, CoR and CoE. Our warlocks argue, that an affliction Warlock using CoA will loose too much dps if speccing Malediction and using CoS instead. However, this seemed very odd to me, so I made the numbers and want to get some feedback here if I'm correct and might missed something.

I used our latest TK raid for numbers (yes, alot of stuff went wrongt that night). Our affliction lock (Psyckoo) gets about 200 dps from using a specced CoA. One of our destruction locks used CoD a few times and got about 160 dps from it (roughly 10k hits). That's mere 40 dps difference, thus a from Malediction improved CoS would only need to provide a 40 dps increase to have it be applied by an affliction lock instead of a destruction lock. Well, our Voidreaver kill that night had more than 4,5k shadow and arcane dps, that would sum up to more than 130 dps gain from Malediction.

My conclusion: having CoS with Malediction applied by an affliction warlock instead of a destruction warlock which uses CoD for dps instead will increase raid dps. Am I right?
- Can come with Malediction, which scales with the amount of Shadow/Arcane users in the raid. It adds 2.7% over the untalented CoS. (113% talented, 110% untalented, 1.13/1.1 = 102.73%)

It's actually 122.85. And of course it inscreases raid dps. But the question is, if affliction lock specs destro and does 500 more dps, will it justify the difference from improved CoS, blood pact and VE?

Last edited by Eternal One : 01/25/08 at 5:29 AM.
#1146SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Borodin
I think it's still worth having a "Raid Support" Warlock with talents such Improved Imp, Malediction and of course Shadow Embrace.
They will still deliver good if not exceptional damage and the -5% Physical damage from SE is very useful in encounters like Gurtogg (Fel Rage).
Of course you really only need 1 such Warlock, the rest can safely spec full on 0/21/40 or similar raid DPS builds.
#1147SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
I don't see how you guys are speccing into imp imp. 43 in affliction is a must and 17 in destro is a must as well, leaving only 1 point for it. Only talents you could drop from affliction are from the 4th tier onwards, but all talents from there on are dps talents (note I didn't even take CoEx nor imp howl, but took evertyhing else). Only thing you could MAYBE drop is nightfall or the range talent, however I don't think they're really worth 14 more stamina to your tank. Range helps stay alive and nightfall is not too bad of a dps increase. Although I suppose if you *really* want you can give up one of those and get that imp maxed.
#1148SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
I don't see how you guys are speccing into imp imp. 43 in affliction is a must and 17 in destro is a must as well, leaving only 1 point for it. Only talents you could drop from affliction are from the 4th tier onwards, but all talents from there on are dps talents (note I didn't even take CoEx nor imp howl, but took evertyhing else). Only thing you could MAYBE drop is nightfall or the range talent, however I don't think they're really worth 14 more stamina to your tank. Range helps stay alive and nightfall is not too bad of a dps increase. Although I suppose if you *really* want you can give up one of those and get that imp maxed.
Nightfall is the clear option. Otherwise you are stuck with the dubious distinction of having Destruction Range but not affliction range.

You might as well drop Destructive Reach as well in this situation; Affliction locks don't really need the threat reduction.
#1149SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Emolate
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
I don't see how you guys are speccing into imp imp. 43 in affliction is a must and 17 in destro is a must as well, leaving only 1 point for it. Only talents you could drop from affliction are from the 4th tier onwards, but all talents from there on are dps talents (note I didn't even take CoEx nor imp howl, but took evertyhing else). Only thing you could MAYBE drop is nightfall or the range talent, however I don't think they're really worth 14 more stamina to your tank. Range helps stay alive and nightfall is not too bad of a dps increase. Although I suppose if you *really* want you can give up one of those and get that imp maxed.
Like this.

I don't see why 43 points in Affliction is a must for a support Warlock. At all.

A Maledicted CoS and spamming Shadowbolts along with the Destruction Warlocks while keeping up Immolate and Corruption isn't exactly a slouch.

Both range-extending talents. Both threat-reduction talents. Shadow Mastery, Malediction, Imp Imp 3/3, a buffed Healthstone, and Intensity.

Imp Imp gives your party members nearly 900 Health. Since Affliction locks are almost guaranteed to have an Imp out at all times, putting 3 points there is a no-brainer, in my opinion.
#1150SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Emolate View Post
Like this.

I don't see why 43 points in Affliction is a must for a support Warlock. At all.

A Maledicted CoS and spamming Shadowbolts along with the Destruction Warlocks while keeping up Immolate and Corruption isn't exactly a slouch.

Both range-extending talents. Both threat-reduction talents. Shadow Mastery, Malediction, Imp Imp 3/3, a buffed Healthstone, and Intensity.

Imp Imp gives your party members nearly 900 Health. Since Affliction locks are almost guaranteed to have an Imp out at all times, putting 3 points there is a no-brainer, in my opinion.

Err, you lost both UA and Ruin.....that player will do the same dps as the tank.
#1151SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3deadlights
Okay so keeping in this line of qeustions regarding a support warlock. I'm struggling with a decision myself on whether to become said support warlock. A little backround:

Let me first say we have a warlock heavy raid. We have 5 locks with high attendence and usually at least four of us are in the raid if not all. Now, going back some months ago prior to our first Vashj kill, all our warlocks were affliction except for myself. In the interests of the raid I was specced demo to make tanking leo easier since I was the only one with a full FR set. My intention was to go back to affliction once I had the gear to support the lack of mitigation and our raid had the gear to make the enrage a non issue, but then I noticed that we were reaching the debuff limit and pushing eachother's DoT's off.

I made the decision then to spec destruction rather than add to the issue with the debuff limit and in the process increase ISB up time. Fast forward to today. Now all the hardcore "I'll never leave affliction locks" saw the dmg that destro could output and all wanted to switch (they initially didn't think affliction could be beaten for dps) which they have. All except one who remains affliction but will not pick up malediction or shadow embrace.

The question is this: Is it worth it for me to respec back to affliction and become the utility lock since no one else seems to want to, even though I am currently the top dpsing lock and quite often the top DPS for the entire raid?
#1152SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
Err, you lost both UA and Ruin.....that player will do the same dps as the tank.
Agreed. The linked spec will have terrible dps.
I don't know how other people's experience is about this, but switching from my paladin back to my mage I notice a huge increase in time when I can actually do stuff due to the extra range (as the paladin needs to be in range of the tank rather than the boss which is often closer to the boss than I'm used to being on my mage). At the end the extra range greatly increases your dps time in just about any fight that has any kind of movement, and will result in a noticeable dps increase. So it's pretty much a question of nightfall vs 14 more stam on your tank - worth it?
#1153SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Eternal One View Post
- Can come with Malediction, which scales with the amount of Shadow/Arcane users in the raid. It adds 2.7% over the untalented CoS. (113% talented, 110% untalented, 1.13/1.1 = 102.73%)

It's actually 122.85. And of course it inscreases raid dps. But the question is, if affliction lock specs destro and does 500 more dps, will it justify the difference from improved CoS, blood pact and VE?
It is 122.85? Explain why so I can update the compendium.
#1154SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by deadlights View Post
Okay so keeping in this line of qeustions regarding a support warlock. I'm struggling with a decision myself on whether to become said support warlock. A little backround:

Let me first say we have a warlock heavy raid. We have 5 locks with high attendence and usually at least four of us are in the raid if not all. Now, going back some months ago prior to our first Vashj kill, all our warlocks were affliction except for myself. In the interests of the raid I was specced demo to make tanking leo easier since I was the only one with a full FR set. My intention was to go back to affliction once I had the gear to support the lack of mitigation and our raid had the gear to make the enrage a non issue, but then I noticed that we were reaching the debuff limit and pushing eachother's DoT's off.

I made the decision then to spec destruction rather than add to the issue with the debuff limit and in the process increase ISB up time. Fast forward to today. Now all the hardcore "I'll never leave affliction locks" saw the dmg that destro could output and all wanted to switch (they initially didn't think affliction could be beaten for dps) which they have. All except one who remains affliction but will not pick up malediction or shadow embrace.

The question is this: Is it worth it for me to respec back to affliction and become the utility lock since no one else seems to want to, even though I am currently the top dpsing lock and quite often the top DPS for the entire raid?
It might be. However..

Having SE and Malediction is not _required_. Once you're passed Kael'thas raw dps hardly matters, really. You can easily stay your spec and it'll hardly matter on outcome of the fights.

But to be honest, I'd have serious issues with a warlock that doesn't pick up malediction and shadow embrace despite being affliction, given the fact you have five warlocks in the raid.
#1155SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Emolate
Like this.

I don't see why 43 points in Affliction is a must for a support Warlock. At all.

A Maledicted CoS and spamming Shadowbolts along with the Destruction Warlocks while keeping up Immolate and Corruption isn't exactly a slouch.

Both range-extending talents. Both threat-reduction talents. Shadow Mastery, Malediction, Imp Imp 3/3, a buffed Healthstone, and Intensity.

Imp Imp gives your party members nearly 900 Health. Since Affliction locks are almost guaranteed to have an Imp out at all times, putting 3 points there is a no-brainer, in my opinion.
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
Err, you lost both UA and Ruin.....that player will do the same dps as the tank.
I'd personally lose the healthstone and a point in blood pact to pick up Ruin, but both my version and the original are sensible choices in my opinion. Gear quality and raid makeup will be determining factors in choosing between them, as well.

Let's not exaggerate, keep comments constructive. If a warlock needs Ruin or Unstable affliction to outdps a tank, I think the problem exists between keyboard and chair.
#1156SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3deadlights
Yeah maybe I'll drop a bug in the affy lock's ear but the subject has been brought up before so I'm not optimistic. If it won't improve much overall I might as well stick destro though especially now that I can see the tier 6 four piece bonuses looming on the horizon.

As far as picking up Ruin I thought most math has shown that it wasn't possible for a deep affliction build with ruin to out perform UA with gear currently available.
#1157SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Eph
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

The best spec I could come up with for the utility minded Affliction lock. Though all our locks are Destruction at the moment, we will probably have one go Affliction for Sunwell. I'd have to do some math considering the gear to see if stretching over to get Ruin instead of UA (at the cost of 2points in Contagion and 1point Imp Imp perhaps) would be worth it.
#1158SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
If you decide to drop UA, you'll find Contagion is remarkably low DPS/talent-point. Since you will be on CoS/CoE, it yields only 1% increase in the Corruptions per point. Very easy to drop, in my opinion.
#1159SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Eph
Originally Posted by deadlights View Post
As far as picking up Ruin I thought most math has shown that it wasn't possible for a deep affliction build with ruin to out perform UA with gear currently available.
I think the new metagem and 4pt6 help to push it over. It's also one less debuff.
#1160SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
I've seen people saying with their gear ruin gives mroe dps on the spreadsheet than UA, but that requires that you pretty much have the whole game on farm already, and the dps increase is small on single target and when you take any kind of multi-dotting into account you probably do less with ruin. Not to mention ruin still means you need 38 in aff and 21 in destro leaving only 2/3 for imp so you only gained 7 sta on your tank, who probably is already in full T6 if you're considering a malediction/ruin build.
#1161SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Eph View Post
I think the new metagem and 4pt6 help to push it over. It's also one less debuff.
Even without the Meta gem/4 piece, Ruin will beat UA due to a number of factors, lack of debuff slots, increased imp SB uptime, easier time maintaining DoT stack (due to being smaller), and haste/crit not affecting UA.


Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
leaving only 2/3 for imp so you only gained 7 sta on your tank.
2/3 imp imp is an extra 14 stamina (blood pact is 70 stamina sans talents), but the stamina isn't the reason for Affliction, it is Malediction and Shadow Embrace.
#1162SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
A UA warlock can already put 1/3 imp imp, so 2/3 is only 7 stam more than that.
#1163SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
A UA warlock can already put 1/3 imp imp, so 2/3 is only 7 stam more than that.
A UA Lock can also get 3/3 imp, with 47/3/11 (getting all the nice Affliction utility talents, getting 1/2 in the threat talent), while a 38/2/21 can only get 2/3.
#1164SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3PSGarak
Devestation is essentially a required raiding talent, especially if you have other shadow casters in the raid, or you're killing your ISB uptime. 47/3/11 ends up being a rather odd spec, since you're sacrificing a big raid utility (ISB) for a small one (bloodpact). It's certainly not raid-optimal, although it might have uses if your imp's firebolt is in play a significant amount of the time (solo farming? PvP?).

Even without the Meta gem/4 piece, Ruin will beat UA due to a number of factors, lack of debuff slots, increased imp SB uptime, easier time maintaining DoT stack (due to being smaller), and haste/crit not affecting UA.
ISB uptime is not affected by ruin itself unless your affliction build doesn't include devestate, or your ruin build includes backlash, neither of which is the case in comparing 43/0/18 to 38/2/21. The rest of the factors don't make a Ruin build actually do more damage, they just make it easier to reach your peak compared to a UA build. If you're good at juggling DoTs, UA will tend to outperform. And those arguements should be framed against the mobility and multi-target arguements, since we're talking deviations from ideal conditions.
#1165SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3moghed
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
Easily modeled in the leulier spreadsheet.

I get about 36 dps with your stats. For endgame locks contemplating a t6 helm, it's better than the [Hood of Hexing] in all situations.

I realize this is an older post but I have a question regarding CSD.

I'm not extremely good with spreadsheets, so would you mind saying how you modeled this? I'm trying to compare several different gear sets with varying crit and hit and I'd like to know how to get the spreadsheet to model the bonus to crit from this gem.
#1166SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Eph
There was a rumor on the WoW forums (far from reliable, I know) about Devastation being bugged not working with Shadow Bolt, has anyone seen any evidence to this? I don't have any recent WWSs to look at my self.
#1167SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gumibear
Gumibear - WWS
http://wowwebstats.com/umj54wl6uew3u?a=3

Those are my WWS for this week's Hyjal and BT. Both nights I averaged a 28% crit rate on Shadowbolt. I'm grouped with an elemental shaman so I get Totem of Wrath, so I should expect about a 33% crit rate. This probably is not enough data on its own to make a conclusion, but if everyone is seeing a lower than expected crit rate, something could be up. Is a 5% deviation significant over full clears of Hyjal and BT?
#1168SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shai
I've observed lower than expected crit rates for a long time now, but I've always attributed it to bad luck with the RNG.

This is the latest WWS we have, but I'm unsure how useful it is since I was grouped with a Moonkin on some fights and he likes running in and out of aura range. My normal crit rate should be ~30%.

http://wowwebstats.com/ydlimvj3rrlse

Good example of the randomness of crits: On Kaz'rogal I was in full SR but had a 39% crit rate.
#1169SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Brissa
Originally Posted by deadlights View Post
The question is this: Is it worth it for me to respec back to affliction and become the utility lock since no one else seems to want to, even though I am currently the top dpsing lock and quite often the top DPS for the entire raid?
Since your havent beaten the game and are still making progression raids: YES, either that or threaten to kick the fucker who wont respec to help his guild.
#1170SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Problem is that "the fucker that will not respec to help his guild" is also "the fucker who doesn't show up" and "the fucker that can't do much more than shadowbolt spam". Unless you want all your warlocks affliction so you can be destruction, or have them respec daily based on the other warlocks' attendance, you need to be the affliction warlock if your attendance is actually consistant and you can actually not mess up your dps as affliction. Make one of them spec aff and you either get stuck on a raid he doesn't show up or his dps will just suck as he's already bad and on top you make him play a spec that's harder to play making him even worse.
#1171SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3weet
Regarding possible devastation bug, perhaps the best way to determine this would be to compare shadowbolt crit percentage vs Seed of Corruption.

I only have some old wws's of my own to look at (from November)

#1
Shadow Bolt (Shadow) 840 hits 29% crit
Seed of Corruption (Shadow) 297 hits 24% crit

#2
Sb 157 hits 28% crit
Seed 553 hits 23% crit

#3
sb 156 hits 31% crit
seed 334 hits 27% crit


Yet if you look at the WWS of the raid that Shai just linked 3 warlocks
1 has same crit rate for both spells
1 has sb crit rate 2% higher
1 has seed crit rate 1% higher

And Gumibears WWS
Gumibear 1% higher crit on seed
Nickerbocker 1% higher crit on sbolt
Alesha 2% higher crit on sbolt

I looked through some others quickly but could not find a lot of reports with a high seed usage, but it did seem that sb was often 4% higher crit so shrug.

So it is probably worth looking into anyway, considering if it does exist it is possible to have popped up in a recent patch.
#1172SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3zelman
Originally Posted by weet View Post
Regarding possible devastation bug, perhaps the best way to determine this would be to compare shadowbolt crit percentage vs Seed of Corruption.

I only have some old wws's of my own to look at (from November)

#1
Shadow Bolt (Shadow) 840 hits 29% crit
Seed of Corruption (Shadow) 297 hits 24% crit

#2
Sb 157 hits 28% crit
Seed 553 hits 23% crit

#3
sb 156 hits 31% crit
seed 334 hits 27% crit


Yet if you look at the WWS of the raid that Shai just linked 3 warlocks
1 has same crit rate for both spells
1 has sb crit rate 2% higher
1 has seed crit rate 1% higher

And Gumibears WWS
Gumibear 1% higher crit on seed
Nickerbocker 1% higher crit on sbolt
Alesha 2% higher crit on sbolt

I looked through some others quickly but could not find a lot of reports with a high seed usage, but it did seem that sb was often 4% higher crit so shrug.

So it is probably worth looking into anyway, considering if it does exist it is possible to have popped up in a recent patch.
Seed of Corruption is an affliction spell and therefore not affected by Devastation.
#1173SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3weet
I am aware of this hence the interesting numbers in the recent wws's linked where the crit rate is the same, as opposed to mine from a couple of months ago where the close to 5% difference is present. Why else would I be comparing the two spells?
#1174SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shai
Originally Posted by weet View Post
Regarding possible devastation bug, perhaps the best way to determine this would be to compare shadowbolt crit percentage vs Seed of Corruption.
This sounds like a good approach. I'm just not certain the WWS report I linked is a good baseline for comparison. As I said, there was a Moonkin present, but from what I can tell, WWS isn't able to reliably show who had the aura at what time. You would need consistent theoretical crit rates for such a comparision.
#1175SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Caps
Maximizing my DPS.

First off, Hello. I am new here... i am hoping this is the right spot to pot this =D

My name is Caps and im a 21/40 sac/destro lock

I am trying to get the most damage out of my class via gear & spell rotation (lol sb spam? :P)


Anyways this post may get long i apologize.

The current "end game" set i am aiming for is as followed.

T6 Head/Gloves/Chest/Shoulders
with my off set piece being Legguards of Channeled Elements

Neck: Translucent Spellthread Necklace
Waist: Anetheron's Noose
Back: Cloak of the Illidari Council
Feet: Slippers of the Seacaller
Wrist: Cuffs of Devastation
Ring 1: Band of the Eternal Sage
Ring 2: Ring of Captured Storms
Trinket 1: Hex Shrunken Head
Trinket 2: The Skull of Gul'dan
Main Hand: Tempest of Chaos
Off Hand: Chronicle of Dark Secrets
Ranged: Wand of the Forgotten Star

All of my sockets will be 12 spell damage gems with the exception of my wrists (they have a 14 spell dmg gem as i am a jewel crafter) and 2 glowing shadowsong amethyst in order to make my meta gem work.


The enchants are all the basic spell damage enchants, my weapon will have soulfrost.


Now according to wowequip

this leaves me at 1336
16.80% spell hit
16.31% spell crit
0 haste
(unbuffed)


So my first question is to other locks raiding bt/hyjal with their full end game set, how does your differ from mine? Is there anything i can switch around gear wise to produce more damage?



My second question is what is your take on haste rating? -- Yes i know haste is awesome and nice, but with destro locks they need that 202 hit cap, and sadly with most of the haste gear floating around it takes away hit & crit. Have any of you tried a haste set and seen a increase or decrease in dps?



annnd my last question..
Spell Rotation ^.^
What are you guys doing to get the most out of the class?
For me i mostly Shadow Bolt spam and Curse of Doom.

Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats

those are a few of my WWS reports that i have posted.


I would link my armory but i am pretty sure that would be pointless at this point since for the weekend i am sl/sl spec and kickin it in my pvp gear ^^


Anyways, any feedback would be fantastic.

and sorry if this is not the place to post this =D
#1176SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pidge
So, given: 4p T6, CSD, and increased ISB uptime from casting more Shadowbolts, does Ruin ever surpass UA in straight up DPS? And if not, how close is it?
#1177SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by moghed View Post
I realize this is an older post but I have a question regarding CSD.

I'm not extremely good with spreadsheets, so would you mind saying how you modeled this? I'm trying to compare several different gear sets with varying crit and hit and I'd like to know how to get the spreadsheet to model the bonus to crit from this gem.
There is a selection on one of the tabs to choose your metagem. Plug your stats in, note your dps, activate the metagem, and note your dps again. Subtract the 2 values.
#1178SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3gargosch
Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
So, given: 4p T6, CSD, and increased ISB uptime from casting more Shadowbolts, does Ruin ever surpass UA in straight up DPS? And if not, how close is it?

Maybe you need to be a bit more specific with your question. Do you mean is there any gearset where Ruin is better then UA. Then the anser is easy. Yes just pick every hight crit item and you will see that Ruin do a lot more damage then UA.

Or do you mean with the best gear for a UA spec and the best gear for a Affliction&Ruin spec is there a gear level where Ruin get better. This is a lot harder to say. Maybe even NP hard to slove, but ofc it's not imposible.

I played Affliction&Ruin because I had destro gear and we need Shadow Embrance. If I take my stats and enter they into a spreadsheet it show me that the diffrence is realy small between Affliction&Ruin and a UA build.

My gear(all Tier 5 or lower, buffed)
Shadow Damage: 1383
Crit: 21.9
Hit: 14.7
Haste: 25

dps diffrence(don't including ISB debuff from extra SB): 24

Lets just switch one gear part. Take in Vestments of the Sea-Witch instead of Frozen Shadoweave Robe and the diffrence go down to 15 dps. Anyway I would call it close.
#1179SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Suggestive
I've seen the claim about Devastation being bugged a few times since TBC started, and even wasted my time tossing 1000 shadowbolts at dr. boom a few times to test it out. As far as i can tell it still works. I've had parses with a 25% crit rate despite having ~35 raid buffed, and i've seen a few with a 40% crit rate. It happens, especially with tiny sample sizes. I don't think devastation is bugged at all, and i generally don't trust those forums anyway.
#1180SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gumibear
Can anyone who is good at statistics figure out a standard deviation for shadowbolt crit rate so we know what's not a big deal when WWS reports a crit rate lower than our expected? I can't even remember how to start determining that, I sucked at statistics.
#1181SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
First forgive me if my termination is wrong, as I did not learn statistics in english
Assuming you cast a lot of shadowbolts (will refer to what's "a lot" at the end), you can say that your # of crits has a normal deviation.
Summing up a lot of shadowbolts, each shadowbolt has C chance to crit. Call X=1 if it crit and X=0 if it did not, and E(X)=C. Var(X)=E(X^2)-E(X)^2=C-C^2.
Casting N shadowbolts, E(average crit over N bolts)=E(X)=C (obviously, on average with 20% crit rate casting 100 shadowbolts you'd crit 20).
Var(average crit over N bolts) = Var(X)/N = (C-C^2)/N
The deviation would be Var^0.5.

For 100 shdowbolts and 25% crit rate, [(0.25-0.25^2)/100]^0.5=~5.6%, which means you have ~63% chance to have your crit rate between 19.4% and 30.6% if you only cast 100 shadowbolts. So getting 30% crit or 20% crit if you only casted 100 shadowbolts is very possible.

To reduce the deviation to 1% with 25% crit rate you need to resolve:
[0.1875/N]^0.5=0.01
0.1875/N=0.0001
0.1875=0.0001N
N=1875
So if you cast less than 1875 shadowbolts expect to get at least 1% deviation in your crit chance with 25% crit. Not to mention even with 1875 shadowbolts you only have ~63% chance to be within 24% to 26% crit chance and still have some chance to be a bit further than that, however you have well over 99% chance to be within 22% to 28% if you cast 1875 shadowbolts.
In other words, I wouldn't call "bug" unless your results are further than 3*deviation than the average.

As for the "many shadowbolts", it's because everything here is an approximation that gets better and better the more shadowbolts you cast, however it would be rather close to the accurate deviations if you cast like 80+ shadowbolts with a realistic crit chance. Cast more and it gets more and more accurate for calculating the deviation.
#1182SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Not only that. Unless I'm wrong about this, your crit rate is listed against level 70s. That means that you have less chance to crit against a boss.

Take a typical Hyjal log. Since seed spam will consistently be against 70s, and shadow bolt for the large part on bosses, you would expect to see a reduced crit chance.

I'm 100% sure that when I wrote ShadowSeer, crit rating was indeed what you would expect it to be for Shadow Bolt and SoC. Now it is possible that a bug along the way has crept in there, but a mere quick glance at some logs would not be sufficient to convince me. If you see less than a 5% gap between SoC and SB, I can only say: it is supposed to be like that. It would be surprising if it wouldn't.

I'm just arguing for caution here, and for good math.


Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
First forgive me if my termination is wrong, as I did not learn statistics in english
Assuming you cast a lot of shadowbolts (will refer to what's "a lot" at the end), you can say that your # of crits has a normal deviation.
Summing up a lot of shadowbolts, each shadowbolt has C chance to crit. Call X=1 if it crit and X=0 if it did not, and E(X)=C. Var(X)=E(X^2)-E(X)^2=C-C^2.
Casting N shadowbolts, E(average crit over N bolts)=E(X)=C (obviously, on average with 20% crit rate casting 100 shadowbolts you'd crit 20).
Var(average crit over N bolts) = Var(X)/N = (C-C^2)/N
The deviation would be Var^0.5.

For 100 shdowbolts and 25% crit rate, [(0.25-0.25^2)/100]^0.5=~5.6%, which means you have ~63% chance to have your crit rate between 19.4% and 30.6% if you only cast 100 shadowbolts. So getting 30% crit or 20% crit if you only casted 100 shadowbolts is very possible.

To reduce the deviation to 1% with 25% crit rate you need to resolve:
[0.1875/N]^0.5=0.01
0.1875/N=0.0001
0.1875=0.0001N
N=1875
So if you cast less than 1875 shadowbolts expect to get at least 1% deviation in your crit chance with 25% crit. Not to mention even with 1875 shadowbolts you only have ~63% chance to be within 24% to 26% crit chance and still have some chance to be a bit further than that, however you have well over 99% chance to be within 22% to 28% if you cast 1875 shadowbolts.
In other words, I wouldn't call "bug" unless your results are further than 3*deviation than the average.

As for the "many shadowbolts", it's because everything here is an approximation that gets better and better the more shadowbolts you cast, however it would be rather close to the accurate deviations if you cast like 80+ shadowbolts with a realistic crit chance. Cast more and it gets more and more accurate for calculating the deviation.
#1183SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3weet
Ah yeah I forgot about the fact that seed would be mostly vs lower level mobs, that would definately explain a common less than 5% gap.

re: People talking about their crit rage being lower than they expect (not in comparison with other spells, just lower), as Arelenda said it is pretty obvious there is some sort of crit depreciation vs higher level mobs. From my observation I expect my crit to be lower than my char sheet suggest, simply because over a long time while raiding I have seen that while I can reach my expected crit, and sometimes exceed it, overall it tends to fall slightly below the expected rate and is alot more likely to drop below than above.
#1184SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shai
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Not only that. Unless I'm wrong about this, your crit rate is listed against level 70s. That means that you have less chance to crit against a boss.
I thought that was the case for melee due to weapon skill and defense, but not for spells. Spells have the miss/resist mechanic that can potentially lower crit rate against higher level targets, but beyond that? Was there ever official word from Blizzard concerning spell crit versus bosses?
#1185SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Shai View Post
Was there ever official word from Blizzard concerning spell crit versus bosses?
Nope, however I defiantly see the crit depression against 73s using spells. There was this one Arcane mage that used Arcane Missiles for a few hours on Dr. Boom (when he was 64, so there would be the 3 level difference). It showed crit being less than the tooltip crit.

I estimate it at taking away 3% crit (I have a 27% tooltip crit, and WWS most of the time shows 24% crit).
#1186SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Soul
Originally Posted by Shai View Post
I thought that was the case for melee due to weapon skill and defense, but not for spells. Spells have the miss/resist mechanic that can potentially lower crit rate against higher level targets, but beyond that? Was there ever official word from Blizzard concerning spell crit versus bosses?
No official word, but we did thousands of spellcasts in this thread and got some pretty convincing evidence that spell crit rate versus higher level mobs is lower than reported.
#1187SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
It also just makes sense. Your crit chance is influenced by your crit rating by a % determined by level. Whether this is by target level or by your level isn't stated explicitly, but it would be fairly logical to assume it is by target level.
#1188SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3PSGarak
Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
So, given: 4p T6, CSD, and increased ISB uptime from casting more Shadowbolts, does Ruin ever surpass UA in straight up DPS? And if not, how close is it?
I'm assuming you mean higher personal ISB uptime from casting more shadowbolts instead of UA. In short, it usually doesn't.

If there are about two or more warlocks (or shadow preists if they're using mind blast and shadow word: death), the duration of ISB doesn't come into play because it's no longer the limiting factor. The model developed based on that assumption is common so I won't belabor the details. The point is, you have 3% less crit than the destro warlocks from talents, maybe more from gear and group setups. If you're concerned about ISB uptime you actually want to be casting less, not more, because your shadowbolts, on average, eat up more ISB procs than they consume.
If you have shadow priests in your raid it's a bit more complicated. In general, if your personal crit is less than the raid-weighted-average-shadow-ISB-proc-chance-thingy-number, you want to be casting less shadowbolts if possible, and if it's higher you want to be casting more. In either case UA is one full shadowbolt per 30 seconds, excepting mana, so it's not going to make a hell of a lot of difference. But if you're going to consider ISB uptime make sure your contribution is actually in the right direction.

Galzo: thanks for dregging that crap up, I intentionally forgot it as fast as I could =P. The english terms are "expectation value" "standard deviation" and "variance" ("normal" in probability usually refers specifically to a Gaussian distribution). Also, if you want, this forum supports LaTeX formatting.
#1189SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pullo
Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
So, given: 4p T6, CSD, and increased ISB uptime from casting more Shadowbolts, does Ruin ever surpass UA in straight up DPS? And if not, how close is it?
I don't have CSD because I happen to have hood of hexing as my helm. I do have 4-piece Tier 6 though and I did some testing and made a post with the results on "another" forum. I got mostly mindless crap as a response with a few exceptions.

I'll share the results here and I'll let you decide.

Pasted below:

Ok, I realize the math on Leulier's spreadsheet shows that UA is better than ruin on affliction spec and that you should be casting immolate in every spec except for destro until you get enough BT/MH drops.

I've been skeptical since almost every test I've tried shows me losing dps when I add immo to my rotation.

I was bored and curious and did some testing on the PTR last night.

The testing sample is Dr. Boom. I used a flask, oil and spell dmg food and used Curse of Shadow for every sample below. The tests were always taking Dr. Boom from 100-0 percent, as to get a fair sample and recreate having to use life tap and siphon to regen mana. I figured this kind of sample would offset if I got a lucky string of crits or nightfall procs. This seemed to work pretty well since I crit 22-18 percent in every sample.

This is using the methods Vivvid stated in a previous post here about keeping all four dots up for the maximum time, not refreshing until they've ended as to not lose dps from the last tick.

1480 Shadow Damage
1318 Fire Damage (I lose +162 fire dmg using kara neck, frozen shadoweave boots and soulfrost)
16.44 Crit
Hit Capped

First test
Spells used: Curse of Shadows, UA, Corruption, Immolate (shadowbolt filler, dark pact, life tap and siphon life only to keep mana up)
Result: 1197.4 dps (21 crit rate on shadowbolt)
Comments: I seemed to get quite a few nightfall procs on this test, but not very many when Improved Shadowbolt is up and not very many trinketed crits when ISB was up. I decide that I'm not satisfied with this test so I do it again.


Second test
Spells used: same as previous
Result: 1219.7 dps (22 crit rate on shadowbolt)
Comments: Not as many nightfall procs, but the timing of my crits seemed to be favorable. Still, I don't like casting immolate when I've just crit on a shadowbolt. I can't help but suspect I could be doing better without immolate, so I decide to try do a test without using immolate, to take advantage of my extra 162 shadow dmg and 4-piece tier 4 bonus buff to shadowbolts.

Third test

Spells used: Curse of Shadows, UA, Corruption, (shadowbolt filler, dark pact, life tap and siphon life only to keep mana up)
Result: 1250.5 dps (20 crit rate on shadowbolt)
Comments: I find that not casting immolate gives me more opportunities to cast shadowbolt, improving ISB uptime. I didn't get very many nightfall procs and my crit rate is only 20 percent, but I still manage to significantly increase my dps -- without using immolate. I'm tempted to test this rotation again, but I'm too eager to try my next rotation. (With the thought in mind that I could probably improve my performance).

Fourth test
(respec required to drop UA and pick up Ruin -- yay for PTR respecs)
Spells used: Curse of Shadows, Corruption, (shadowbolt filler, dark pact, life tap and siphon life only to keep mana up)
Result: 1278 dps (18 crit rate on shadowbolt)
Comments: Obviously I'm a little disappointed in my crit rate (only 20 percent after seeing 22 on one of my UA/Immo samples). I got off to a really slow start, but I get a few crits on the end. Still, I've beaten my third test sample (UA/no immolate rotation) by 28 dps with a crappy bad-luck crit sample. Obviously I'm going to try this test again. Clearly Tier 6 4-piece bonus is putting ruin ahead for me.

Fifth test
(for @#%ts and giggles)
Spells used: Curse of Shadows, Corruption, (shadowbolt filler, dark pact, life tap and siphon life only to keep mana up)
Result: 1323 dps (22 crit rate)
Comments: I'm able to get a nice crit rate (22 percent) and you can see the difference. A hunter decides to land right on top of me at around 20 percent (but doesn't dps Dr. Boom during my test, thanks btw). I do my best to not be distracted (and I'm not). Dr. Boom dies with 6 seconds left on my trinket cooldown or it could have been even better.

So take it for what it's worth. I did my best to try to follow what the annointed experts say that immolate is a must for affliction and UA>Ruin. But yet, both proved (at least for my playstyle and gear) to be incorrect in this scenario.

Say what you will about the test sample. I realize there are fights and situations where using immo will improve my dps (Archimonde, Supremus kite phase come to mind). Also realize that we have fire mages so COE and scorch debuff will help immolate dps a bit. But also realize that there was no shadoweaving debuff on Dr. Boom either, which would increase my shadow damage even more. Misery is another factor not in this sample.

So my conclusion is using immolate isn't terrible, but for many fights, not using it is better dps. In addition, with Tier 6 four-piece bonus, Ruin has shown it can be better dps than UA.

One other minor reason for using Ruin over UA. UA and immo is terribad for most trash. I know, I know, who cares about trash. Unless maybe you're trying to do a ZA timed run for a bear mount. Then speed on trash is a little important.
#1190SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Pullo View Post
So my conclusion is using immolate isn't terrible, but for many fights, not using it is better dps. In addition, with Tier 6 four-piece bonus, Ruin has shown it can be better dps than UA.
Casting so many DoTs means you will lose DoT uptime, so dropping Immolate makes it easier to maintain your DoTs.

Same thing for Ruin > UA, you cast even less DoTs for easier upkeep of the other ones.


It is very easy to cast shadow bolts at around 2.6 seconds each, but you have to watch the GCD closely to make sure you cast another DoT right at 1.5 seconds, which is not as easy.
#1191SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Caps
Originally Posted by Caps View Post
First off, Hello. I am new here... i am hoping this is the right spot to pot this =D

My name is Caps and im a 21/40 sac/destro lock

I am trying to get the most damage out of my class via gear & spell rotation (lol sb spam? :P)


Anyways this post may get long i apologize.

The current "end game" set i am aiming for is as followed.

T6 Head/Gloves/Chest/Shoulders
with my off set piece being Legguards of Channeled Elements

Neck: Translucent Spellthread Necklace
Waist: Anetheron's Noose
Back: Cloak of the Illidari Council
Feet: Slippers of the Seacaller
Wrist: Cuffs of Devastation
Ring 1: Band of the Eternal Sage
Ring 2: Ring of Captured Storms
Trinket 1: Hex Shrunken Head
Trinket 2: The Skull of Gul'dan
Main Hand: Tempest of Chaos
Off Hand: Chronicle of Dark Secrets
Ranged: Wand of the Forgotten Star

All of my sockets will be 12 spell damage gems with the exception of my wrists (they have a 14 spell dmg gem as i am a jewel crafter) and 2 glowing shadowsong amethyst in order to make my meta gem work.


The enchants are all the basic spell damage enchants, my weapon will have soulfrost.


Now according to wowequip

this leaves me at 1336
16.80% spell hit
16.31% spell crit
0 haste
(unbuffed)


So my first question is to other locks raiding bt/hyjal with their full end game set, how does your differ from mine? Is there anything i can switch around gear wise to produce more damage?



My second question is what is your take on haste rating? -- Yes i know haste is awesome and nice, but with destro locks they need that 202 hit cap, and sadly with most of the haste gear floating around it takes away hit & crit. Have any of you tried a haste set and seen a increase or decrease in dps?



annnd my last question..
Spell Rotation ^.^
What are you guys doing to get the most out of the class?
For me i mostly Shadow Bolt spam and Curse of Doom.

Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats

those are a few of my WWS reports that i have posted.


I would link my armory but i am pretty sure that would be pointless at this point since for the weekend i am sl/sl spec and kickin it in my pvp gear ^^


Anyways, any feedback would be fantastic.

and sorry if this is not the place to post this =D


bumping this cause im still lookin for some input <3 =)
#1192SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3weet
For what it's worth I value haste relatively highly due to the effective mp/5 I have while raiding and the fact that most fights have downtime in which to life tap.

weetbix - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger - We've got your back!
Is my ideal gear set currently, not sure about hyjal ring or ring of ancient knowledge.. depends on the specific fight.
#1193SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Awesome. Thanks for doing this.

I'm sure that with imp scorch up and shadoweaving, any build with immolate will be better than the listed values here. But it still shows that it depends on the fight and raid setup, in my opinion.


Originally Posted by Pullo View Post
I don't have CSD because I happen to have hood of hexing as my helm. I do have 4-piece Tier 6 though and I did some testing and made a post with the results on "another" forum. I got mostly mindless crap as a response with a few exceptions.

I'll share the results here and I'll let you decide.

Pasted below:

Ok, I realize the math on Leulier's spreadsheet shows that UA is better than ruin on affliction spec and that you should be casting immolate in every spec except for destro until you get enough BT/MH drops.

I've been skeptical since almost every test I've tried shows me losing dps when I add immo to my rotation.

I was bored and curious and did some testing on the PTR last night.

The testing sample is Dr. Boom. I used a flask, oil and spell dmg food and used Curse of Shadow for every sample below. The tests were always taking Dr. Boom from 100-0 percent, as to get a fair sample and recreate having to use life tap and siphon to regen mana. I figured this kind of sample would offset if I got a lucky string of crits or nightfall procs. This seemed to work pretty well since I crit 22-18 percent in every sample.

This is using the methods Vivvid stated in a previous post here about keeping all four dots up for the maximum time, not refreshing until they've ended as to not lose dps from the last tick.

1480 Shadow Damage
1318 Fire Damage (I lose +162 fire dmg using kara neck, frozen shadoweave boots and soulfrost)
16.44 Crit
Hit Capped

First test
Spells used: Curse of Shadows, UA, Corruption, Immolate (shadowbolt filler, dark pact, life tap and siphon life only to keep mana up)
Result: 1197.4 dps (21 crit rate on shadowbolt)
Comments: I seemed to get quite a few nightfall procs on this test, but not very many when Improved Shadowbolt is up and not very many trinketed crits when ISB was up. I decide that I'm not satisfied with this test so I do it again.


Second test
Spells used: same as previous
Result: 1219.7 dps (22 crit rate on shadowbolt)
Comments: Not as many nightfall procs, but the timing of my crits seemed to be favorable. Still, I don't like casting immolate when I've just crit on a shadowbolt. I can't help but suspect I could be doing better without immolate, so I decide to try do a test without using immolate, to take advantage of my extra 162 shadow dmg and 4-piece tier 4 bonus buff to shadowbolts.

Third test

Spells used: Curse of Shadows, UA, Corruption, (shadowbolt filler, dark pact, life tap and siphon life only to keep mana up)
Result: 1250.5 dps (20 crit rate on shadowbolt)
Comments: I find that not casting immolate gives me more opportunities to cast shadowbolt, improving ISB uptime. I didn't get very many nightfall procs and my crit rate is only 20 percent, but I still manage to significantly increase my dps -- without using immolate. I'm tempted to test this rotation again, but I'm too eager to try my next rotation. (With the thought in mind that I could probably improve my performance).

Fourth test
(respec required to drop UA and pick up Ruin -- yay for PTR respecs)
Spells used: Curse of Shadows, Corruption, (shadowbolt filler, dark pact, life tap and siphon life only to keep mana up)
Result: 1278 dps (18 crit rate on shadowbolt)
Comments: Obviously I'm a little disappointed in my crit rate (only 20 percent after seeing 22 on one of my UA/Immo samples). I got off to a really slow start, but I get a few crits on the end. Still, I've beaten my third test sample (UA/no immolate rotation) by 28 dps with a crappy bad-luck crit sample. Obviously I'm going to try this test again. Clearly Tier 6 4-piece bonus is putting ruin ahead for me.

Fifth test
(for @#%ts and giggles)
Spells used: Curse of Shadows, Corruption, (shadowbolt filler, dark pact, life tap and siphon life only to keep mana up)
Result: 1323 dps (22 crit rate)
Comments: I'm able to get a nice crit rate (22 percent) and you can see the difference. A hunter decides to land right on top of me at around 20 percent (but doesn't dps Dr. Boom during my test, thanks btw). I do my best to not be distracted (and I'm not). Dr. Boom dies with 6 seconds left on my trinket cooldown or it could have been even better.

So take it for what it's worth. I did my best to try to follow what the annointed experts say that immolate is a must for affliction and UA>Ruin. But yet, both proved (at least for my playstyle and gear) to be incorrect in this scenario.

Say what you will about the test sample. I realize there are fights and situations where using immo will improve my dps (Archimonde, Supremus kite phase come to mind). Also realize that we have fire mages so COE and scorch debuff will help immolate dps a bit. But also realize that there was no shadoweaving debuff on Dr. Boom either, which would increase my shadow damage even more. Misery is another factor not in this sample.

So my conclusion is using immolate isn't terrible, but for many fights, not using it is better dps. In addition, with Tier 6 four-piece bonus, Ruin has shown it can be better dps than UA.

One other minor reason for using Ruin over UA. UA and immo is terribad for most trash. I know, I know, who cares about trash. Unless maybe you're trying to do a ZA timed run for a bear mount. Then speed on trash is a little important.
#1194SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nicarras
Originally Posted by weet View Post
For what it's worth I value haste relatively highly due to the effective mp/5 I have while raiding and the fact that most fights have downtime in which to life tap.

weetbix - Character - World of Warcraft - WoWDigger - We've got your back!
Is my ideal gear set currently, not sure about hyjal ring or ring of ancient knowledge.. depends on the specific fight.

I'm still going to lean with conventional thought and say that crit is AS valuable as haste, no one stat more than the other. You stack too much haste then you are more a drain on healers, if you have less crit as a result you may become an ISB drain rather than a benefit also.

Granted to really stack haste you need two items off Illidian, so its gonna take some work.
#1195SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Spline
Originally Posted by Nicarras View Post
I'm still going to lean with conventional thought and say that crit is AS valuable as haste, no one stat more than the other. You stack too much haste then you are more a drain on healers, if you have less crit as a result you may become an ISB drain rather than a benefit also.

Granted to really stack haste you need two items off Illidian, so its gonna take some work.
One important thing to consider is that there's no random component to haste rating. Stacked haste will generally give more consistent returns than stacked crit.
#1196SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3weet
Well the gearset i linked has 3 haste items + skull, thats hardly stacking in favour of crit, it is using superior items to the alternatives - you will still be at 31-32% destruction crit with raid buffs (int/motw/kings).. not sure what you are trying to say.
#1197SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Nicarras View Post
I'm still going to lean with conventional thought and say that crit is AS valuable as haste, no one stat more than the other. You stack too much haste then you are more a drain on healers, if you have less crit as a result you may become an ISB drain rather than a benefit also.

Granted to really stack haste you need two items off Illidian, so its gonna take some work.
It's not really about it being a drain on healers, it's about having to life tap more, which is not affected by haste. But other than that, I completely agree.
#1198SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Botvinnik
ISB uptime

I have been reading TONS of threads about theorycrafting/predicting ISB uptime. It seems extremely difficult to calculate ISB uptime because you have to take into account the crit/haste/spec/rotation of all the shadowpriest and warlocks in the entire raid. I think a much more practical approach would be to find out ISB uptime for one of your raids. Is there an addon that measures/explain ISB uptime for a raiding lock? If I could find out an approximate ISB percentage during raids, I could then decide if shadowpriests can get away with using mindblast or if that is eating up a valuable ISB charge, also how valuable crit is for the raid, etc. etc. I know this is fairly specific question, but I can't make threads yet as a just signed up on the website. Thanks a bunch.
#1199SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gumibear
Originally Posted by Soul View Post
No official word, but we did thousands of spellcasts in this thread and got some pretty convincing evidence that spell crit rate versus higher level mobs is lower than reported.
Does leulier's spreadsheet take this information about spell crit it account? I already do not value spell crit highly, but I'd like to see further evidence to point my fellow warlocks towards spell haste.
#1200SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Botvinnik View Post
I have been reading TONS of threads about theorycrafting/predicting ISB uptime. It seems extremely difficult to calculate ISB uptime because you have to take into account the crit/haste/spec/rotation of all the shadowpriest and warlocks in the entire raid. I think a much more practical approach would be to find out ISB uptime for one of your raids. Is there an addon that measures/explain ISB uptime for a raiding lock? If I could find out an approximate ISB percentage during raids, I could then decide if shadowpriests can get away with using mindblast or if that is eating up a valuable ISB charge, also how valuable crit is for the raid, etc. etc. I know this is fairly specific question, but I can't make threads yet as a just signed up on the website. Thanks a bunch.
ShadowSeer measures total damage amped by ISB, but is only accurate when you're close enough to the target. Currently it is the best you can do.

Screenshot at http://wowui.incgamers.com/uploads/1...57689911-1.jpg
#1201SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3PSGarak
Originally Posted by Gumibear View Post
Does leulier's spreadsheet take this information about spell crit it account? I already do not value spell crit highly, but I'd like to see further evidence to point my fellow warlocks towards spell haste.
No, it doesn't.

We still don't have a quantitative analysis of it. We know that your crit chance lowers, but we don't know the exactly mechanism behind it. There are at least three possibilities: subtractive penalty (-5%), multaplicative penalty (your crit rate goes down 1/10), and a revaluing of crit rating (and possibly int->crit as well) by the level 73 conversions instead of level 70. Note that the last two may actually resolve to be the same, minus an additive constant. No testing has been done, and the testing required to get a quantitative analysis would be prohibitively enourmous, compared to the qualitative testing to show that something was happening.
#1202SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Fimotik
Following some controvery regarding Immolate in a guild that I raid an alt with, I had a look through a couple of months worth of WWS on my main (this lock). Theorycrafting is great, but it can be funny how things work out in practice.

By way of background, my guild is in the first half of BT, so I had access to WWS for all TK/SSC bosses, 4/5 Hyjal and 3/9 BT bosses. This toon is UA Affliction, so the results relate only to this build.


What I found was a huge variance in the DPS output of both Shadow Bolt and Immolate. Our raid composition is fairly consistent, 3-4 locks, 3-4 mages (all fire or frost), 1-2 Shadow Priests (mostly 1, and I excluded those raids where no SPriest was present).

Things that had a big impact: Miss rate variances between Immolate & SB, partial resist rate variances between Immolate & SB and crit rate variance between the two. Sometimes Shadow Bolt would crit at a rate 10% or more than Immolate, and the DPS increase in SB was huge (due to ISB procs). Conversely sometimes Immolate would crit much more than Shadow Bolt, making its damage per cast time value much higher than the SB average hit.

Where miss, partial resist and crit rates did not differ signficantly, Immolate had competite damage per cast time.

What I learnt from a fairly cursory glance through WWS was that whether to cast Immolate or not for an Affliction lock is a very complex issue, being greatly affected by one's own gear (crit in particular), the composition of the raid (number of warlocks, their specs and gear; presence and number of Shadow Priests; presence of a fire mage; plus other raid/party buffers like Moonkin, ele shammies etc.

For example, with several locks with low crit rates, ISB uptime is going to be low. Add a couple of Shadow Priests and ISB uptime falls even further. Assuming a fire mage is in the raid, Immolate would have to be very appealing. Start changing the composition, have 2 locks with high crit rates, 1 SPriest, a Moonkin in their party and no fire mage, then Shadow Bolt really gets boosted. Unfortunately, no simple, one-size-fits-all answer to this debate it seems.
#1203SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Botvinnik
I've used shadow seer but that just tells you about your on SB, I'm looking for something that measures raid ISB uptime. Any idea?
#1204SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Botvinnik View Post
I've used shadow seer but that just tells you about your on SB, I'm looking for something that measures raid ISB uptime. Any idea?
Shadowseer tells you everyone's damage increase by ISB and how much damage they contributed through their ISB debuffs. I don't see what more you could possibly want.

If you just want a simple number that says %, you can look up the total raid shadow damage. It'll have (x% boosted by ISB) behind it. Divide x by 20% and there you have your uptime. For example, 10% damage boosted by ISB means 50% (=10/20) uptime.
#1205SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bolche
Originally Posted by Gumibear View Post
Does leulier's spreadsheet take this information about spell crit it account? I already do not value spell crit highly, but I'd like to see further evidence to point my fellow warlocks towards spell haste.
No it does not. If you know for sure that your crit rate is 3% lower against a boss, you can juste decrease it in the crit cell.

Originally Posted by Botvinnik View Post
I have been reading TONS of threads about theorycrafting/predicting ISB uptime. It seems extremely difficult to calculate ISB uptime because you have to take into account the crit/haste/spec/rotation of all the shadowpriest and warlocks in the entire raid. I think a much more practical approach would be to find out ISB uptime for one of your raids. Is there an addon that measures/explain ISB uptime for a raiding lock? If I could find out an approximate ISB percentage during raids, I could then decide if shadowpriests can get away with using mindblast or if that is eating up a valuable ISB charge, also how valuable crit is for the raid, etc. etc. I know this is fairly specific question, but I can't make threads yet as a just signed up on the website. Thanks a bunch.
As Arelenda said, ShadowSeer is a very nice addon to measure you raid ISB effect.

As for more thorical approach, you can check the "Raid ISB" tab of my spreadsheet, it tries to factor SPs & warlocks cycles, and I beleave the results are pretty accurate.

Lastly, you can try my ISB uptime simulator.
#1206SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Bolche View Post
As Arelenda said, ShadowSeer is a very nice addon to measure you raid ISB effect.

As for more theorethical approach, you can check the "Raid ISB" tab of my spreadsheet, it tries to factor SPs & warlocks cycles, and I beleave the results are pretty accurate.

Lastly, you can try my ISB uptime simulator.
There you have it. Either you get real data from shadowseer (which can be flawed due to the sillyness that is the Blizzard Combat Events System) or you get theorethical data from Leulier (which can be flawed if people suck, or on movementy fights).

I'm kind of hoping that 2.4 will allow me to rewrite ShadowSeer so that it posts 100% accurate data all the time. Not only when fighting enemies with non-identical names in your 30 yard range.
#1207SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Eph
Are my numbers off some how or is [Brooch of Nature's Mercy] the best neck for the hit capped destro lock?
#1208SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Eph View Post
Are my numbers off some how or is [Brooch of Nature's Mercy] the best neck for the hit capped destro lock?
Err, from the same instance, you get [Loop of Cursed Bones].

If you are hit capped, it is a tossup between that, [The Sun King's Talisman], and [Translucent Spellthread Necklace]

I plug in my stats, and the Nature's Mercy neck is about equal to those 3, but 2 of those have stamina.

With my gear, they are all between +55 and +57 dps.
#1209SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Eph
On my sheet I've got:

[Brooch of Nature's Mercy] is 65.07 (counting the spirit as 3.8dmg)
[Loop of Cursed Bones] is 61.45
[The Sun King's Talisman] is 60.36

The stamina loss is really a non issue since I'm not using any gear with low or no stamina (Belt of Blasting, FSW, etc).
#1210SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Eph View Post
On my sheet I've got:

[Brooch of Nature's Mercy] is 65.07 (counting the spirit as 3.8dmg)
[Loop of Cursed Bones] is 61.45
[The Sun King's Talisman] is 60.36

The stamina loss is really a non issue since I'm not using any gear with low or no stamina (Belt of Blasting, FSW, etc).
Well, you have a rather curious gear selection if you are hitting 12% hit (with ele shaman) without those items.

My raids rarely run with imp divine spirit, but I thought it was a 10% return, not a 20%? But if it is you might be correct.

FWIW, though, I think the increased ISB uptime from Kael's or the RoS neck would put it close to on par with the Brooch. Plus with some regemming you could make use of the +hit on the latter.
#1211SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Necrostar
Could it get better than this as a Shadow Destro Lock ?

70 Undead Warlock

Pop trinket for 2 sec bolts. I'm curious to know if BL would even reduce it under 2 sec ? Does BL and Haste stack ? Even if it doesn't I just can't see a better set of gear for 0/21/40.
#1212SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Aliah_KT
Has anyone looked into the accuracy of WOW Webstats and/or the Warcraft character sheet's accuracy on critical strike rating? I've noticed that my critical strike rating is almost always significantly less on WWS sheets than what it should be according to my calculations. I know WWS isn't exactly gospel, but perhaps someone could explain the reasoning for the following:

The World of Warcraft Armory
(My Armory link, which indicates a spell critical strike rating of 26.03% [18.03 from Intellect and bonus crit rating, 8.00 from talents])

Wow Web Stats
(A WWS parse of me and 200ish Shadow Bolts vs. Dr. Boom, which indicates a critical strike rating of 20.45%)

I am wearing the same gear (except for maybe a slightly different damage trinket--no change in spell critical strike rating) on my character that I did during the Dr. Boom test. Two hundred seems like a reasonable sample size to see a relatively close correlation (+/- 2%) in critical strike rating, but this analysis seems to indicate a statistically significant discontinuity. If anyone has any insight on this, I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks!
#1213SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
First forgive me if my termination is wrong, as I did not learn statistics in english
Assuming you cast a lot of shadowbolts (will refer to what's "a lot" at the end), you can say that your # of crits has a normal deviation.
Summing up a lot of shadowbolts, each shadowbolt has C chance to crit. Call X=1 if it crit and X=0 if it did not, and E(X)=C. Var(X)=E(X^2)-E(X)^2=C-C^2.
Casting N shadowbolts, E(average crit over N bolts)=E(X)=C (obviously, on average with 20% crit rate casting 100 shadowbolts you'd crit 20).
Var(average crit over N bolts) = Var(X)/N = (C-C^2)/N
The deviation would be Var^0.5.

For 100 shdowbolts and 25% crit rate, [(0.25-0.25^2)/100]^0.5=~5.6%, which means you have ~63% chance to have your crit rate between 19.4% and 30.6% if you only cast 100 shadowbolts. So getting 30% crit or 20% crit if you only casted 100 shadowbolts is very possible.

To reduce the deviation to 1% with 25% crit rate you need to resolve:
[0.1875/N]^0.5=0.01
0.1875/N=0.0001
0.1875=0.0001N
N=1875
So if you cast less than 1875 shadowbolts expect to get at least 1% deviation in your crit chance with 25% crit. Not to mention even with 1875 shadowbolts you only have ~63% chance to be within 24% to 26% crit chance and still have some chance to be a bit further than that, however you have well over 99% chance to be within 22% to 28% if you cast 1875 shadowbolts.
In other words, I wouldn't call "bug" unless your results are further than 3*deviation than the average.

As for the "many shadowbolts", it's because everything here is an approximation that gets better and better the more shadowbolts you cast, however it would be rather close to the accurate deviations if you cast like 80+ shadowbolts with a realistic crit chance. Cast more and it gets more and more accurate for calculating the deviation.
In short, expect big deviation in your crit chance if you're not casting over 1875 bolts or something like that.

As for the "always lower", make sure you don't "forget" the WWS parses where it was higher. People tend to quickly forget those.
#1214SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Aliah_KT
Thanks for the statistics--very informative. While it does make me feel better about my numbers' variance, I'm still not 100% convinced we're seeing the whole picture. I'm sure it's only in my head, but I can't seem to remember a single time where I looked at my critical strike statistics and found the rate significantly higher (certainly nowhere near 5-10%) than what I expected. Perhaps I am just unlucky. It would be interesting to see if anyone has ever done a test on the order of a thousand or more spell strikes to more accurately gauge Blizzard's numbers. Seeing as how major a factor spell critical strikes are for our highest-DPS class raiding build (0/21/40), as well as other classes', I'd be surprised if there wasn't some more hard experimental data available.

Thanks again, and I'd welcome anyone else's input into this.
#1215SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Keep in mind that even if your crit was 5% less, assuming it's just 5% less but still you gain 1% per 22.1 and per point in devastation etc, your stat choices would be nearly the same. And it's probably not the case anyway - feel free to sit on DR. boom and shoot 2000+ shadowbolts and provide wws. And if lower crit on bosses is the case, then it must be small enough for people to not notice, and again a fixed reduction to crit will make very little change on how you look at stats.
#1216SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kalle
Originally Posted by Aliah_KT
(My Armory link, which indicates a spell critical strike rating of 26.03% [18.03 from Intellect and bonus crit rating, 8.00 from talents])
The tooltip already includes backlash. The reason why it doesn't include devastation is simply because devastation only increases your critchance with destruction spells whereas backlash increases your total critchance.

For a sample of N casts the standard deviation for the critchance is
\sqrt{\frac{c(1-c)}{N}},
where c is the critchance. So for c=0.2303 and a sample size of 220 the standard deviation is as large as 2.8%.
#1217SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Emolate
Originally Posted by Necrostar View Post

Pop trinket for 2 sec bolts. I'm curious to know if BL would even reduce it under 2 sec ? Does BL and Haste stack ? Even if it doesn't I just can't see a better set of gear for 0/21/40.
Bloodlust/Heroism is Haste, not Reduction, so the usual rules about Haste apply.
#1218SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Aliah_KT
Originally Posted by Kalle View Post
The tooltip already includes backlash.
Thanks for letting me know this. That makes a lot more sense and gives me a better feeling about being slightly lower with my critical strike rate. Being off by 2-3% does not bother me nearly as much as 5-6% for that many attempts.
#1219SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Roywyn
Originally Posted by Necrostar View Post
Could it get better than this as a Shadow Destro Lock ?

70 Undead Warlock

Pop trinket for 2 sec bolts. I'm curious to know if BL would even reduce it under 2 sec ? Does BL and Haste stack ? Even if it doesn't I just can't see a better set of gear for 0/21/40.
You gem for hit, that means you're doing something wrong with your gear setup.
Get [Belt of Blasting] with spinels, [mana-attuned band], replace orange gems with [Potent Pyrestone] and get [Shroud of the Highborne] (or [Cloak of the Illidari Council]) for a ~15 DPS upgrade in the sandbox sheet.
#1220SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pentamorfi
I've seen a lot of people talk about using [Vestments of the Sea-Witch] over [Robe of the Malefic]. This would mean people would drop [Leggings of Channeled Elements] for [Leggings of the Malefic], in order to maintain 4pc T6.

I don't see the reasoning behind it. Assuming you gem every available gem slot with crimson spinels, you're giving up 30 spell damage for 34 crit rating. Even in a destro spec, 1 crit is worth about 0.7 damage, resulting in what looks like a DPS loss. What am I missing?
#1221SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Necrostar
Originally Posted by Roywyn View Post
You gem for hit, that means you're doing something wrong with your gear setup.
Get [Belt of Blasting] with spinels, [mana-attuned band], replace orange gems with [Potent Pyrestone] and get [Shroud of the Highborne] (or [Cloak of the Illidari Council]) for a ~15 DPS upgrade in the sandbox sheet.
You fail to calculate the fact that I have haste items (5 items with haste) & there is no such thing as haste gems ... That's why I have hit gems.

Sure, I could put BoB on this, but if you want to get a decent haste rating your gonna have to sacrifice some items. The important thing is to stay hit capped , improve haste rating w/o saccing too much spell/crit.
#1222SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Pentamorfi View Post
I've seen a lot of people talk about using [Vestments of the Sea-Witch] over [Robe of the Malefic]. This would mean people would drop [Leggings of Channeled Elements] for [Leggings of the Malefic], in order to maintain 4pc T6.

I don't see the reasoning behind it. Assuming you gem every available gem slot with crimson spinels, you're giving up 30 spell damage for 34 crit rating. Even in a destro spec, 1 crit is worth about 0.7 damage, resulting in what looks like a DPS loss. What am I missing?
It's 27 damage, not 30. The Channeled Elements combo is slightly better for personal dps, but only by 1-2 dps for my gear. I took the Vestments so I don't have to go back to Hyjal 100 times for a high demand item.
#1223SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Eph
http://elitistjerks.com/573011-post567.html

This post from the past also lists a bit more info about 4/5 t6 setups. I remember coming to the conclusion that [Vestments of the Sea-Witch] were the way to go, though looking back now I can't remember why. [Leggings of Channeled Elements] also have 5.6dmg worth of spirit, pushing it even further ahead.

It seems that there are many ideas about the best gear setup. This mostly comes from the cap on hit and the fact that there is so much hit available you have to choose which item slots should have any. I think I'm going to load up some numbers comparing total sets instead of just between items and see if I can find what the overall optimum setup would be.
#1224SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Improved Divine Spirit Rank 2

Your Divine Spirit and Prayer of Spirit spells also increase the target's spell damage and healing by an amount equal to 10% of their total Spirit.


Also don't forget somewhere around 80 int gives 1% crit, so int is even less neglicible than spirit for your dps, as with kings 1 int gives something like 0.3 crit rating, and when items have 20-40 int on them it's far from neglicible.
#1225SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ammanas
Originally Posted by Necrostar View Post
Could it get better than this as a Shadow Destro Lock ?

70 Undead Warlock

Pop trinket for 2 sec bolts. I'm curious to know if BL would even reduce it under 2 sec ? Does BL and Haste stack ? Even if it doesn't I just can't see a better set of gear for 0/21/40.
At some point you can have too much haste, because you're SBs will be incredibly hasted which will cause more mana usage but your life taps will still be at the 1.5 sec GCD no matter how much haste you have. The extra SBs you gain from the haste will be canceled out by the extra GCDs you are using life tapping. I'm not bashing haste - its a great stat and all 21/40 locks should have a healthy amount - but you don't want to have too much, especially at the cost of other stats.

I would personally never consider using the Supremus belt, the Anetheron one with its sockets is a much better belt (just so much more damage) and the Belt of Blasting is the only other alternative (if you need hit). You could even it out a little by picking up the Anetheron belt, the Najentus ring (or the ZA chest one if you prefer it still has haste), and re-gemming you're oranges as crit/damage gems.

As far as you're other question, yes Blood Lust works like all other haste and would stack with the trinket/passive haste.
#1226SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Eph
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Improved Divine Spirit Rank 2

Your Divine Spirit and Prayer of Spirit spells also increase the target's spell damage and healing by an amount equal to 10% of their total Spirit.
I forgot it was 10%, my last post and one before it put it at 20%.


70 Human Warlock

And, finally, I believe this is the best gear set for a warlock with an elemental shaman, other raid buffs, and food/flask/oil, though no shadow priest which only matters on the spreadsheet's mp5. After entering all the data to the spreadsheet I got 2222.85dps. After tinkering with this for quite a while I found most dps changes were within 5dps of each other, with only one set at 14dps difference, so most gear setups will probably all perform the same with all endgame gear. Though if anyone see's a better option I'd be glad to try it.

Last edited by Eph : 01/29/08 at 9:28 PM.
#1227SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3weet
You should definately drop Nethervoid Cloak for council/illidan cape and swap in a Mana Attuned Band or Belt of Blasting.
#1228SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Eph
Originally Posted by weet View Post
You should definately drop Nethervoid Cloak for council/illidan cape and swap in a Mana Attuned Band or Belt of Blasting.
EDIT Cloak + Belt of Blasting actually increased dps by 0.56. Updating outfit link above.

Last edited by Eph : 01/29/08 at 5:51 PM.
#1229SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Nas View Post
Would it be worth adding [Hex Shrunken Head] to the list of trinkets, as well as [The Skull of Gul'dan] ? I'm looking through a couple of threads to find out which would be better - even though in the end, one would ideally want to use both.
I want to say the skull is superior, even if you don't need the +hit, mainly because the skull can be used to magnify your Icon.

I'm actually considering going for the Skull before Zhar'doom.
#1230SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
galzohar
Anyone done the math on immolate for affliction? As in wether it's worth refreshing early to get 100% uptime or just refreshing it after every time you refresh UA+corruption? I've seen this brought up before but no answer was found.
Basically 2 possible rotations:

UA-corruption-immolate-bolt/tap/pact/dance-repeat

-OR-

UA-corruption-immolate-bolt/etc-immolate-UA-corruption... In a way that your UA and corruption will not be delayed (as in, the early immolate will be finished casting 3 seconds before it wore off losing 1 tick and 1.5s of shadowbolt spam time). Then every rotation the immolate will move closer and closer to the UA-corruption portion and when it needs casting immidiately after the UA-corruption the loop starts over.

Every you get:
-1.5s shadowbolting ever 4 rotations (=15/3-1) (and +mana cost affiliated with it)
+immolate direct damage every 4 rotations (and -mana cost affiliated with it)
+immolate tick every 4 rotations

Of course since all the gains and losses only happne once every 4 rotations the fact it's every 4 rotations doesn't matter at all.
I will do the math myself to verify of course but I want to make sure I'm getting it right. Overall seems to be a DPS loss regardless of your stats and you should just let immolate fall off and refresh it after UA+corruption as shadowboltX1.5/2.5>immolate tick+immolate hit

Last edited by galzohar : 01/30/08 at 7:10 PM.
#1231SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3PSGarak
If you're using immolate at all, you should be refreshing it as soon as it drops off. You cast it because it has higher DPCT than shadowbolt, and if it does you want to take advantage of that higher DPCT as often as possible. You will, in general, prioritize UA and corruption and just about every other spell in your spellbook as a higher priority except shadowbolt. It will have a higher DoT-gap than any of your other DoTs, which means that it's increasing your damage by less than its theoretical max, but still more than refreshing it every 18 seconds.

Whether or not immolate is worth casting in general depends on everything. I believe the presence or absence of frost mages in your guild is about the only thing that doesn't affect whether or not immolate is worth casting. It tends to hover on the edge of worth casting, being pushed to one side or the other by just about everything.
#1232SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
If you're using immolate at all, you should be refreshing it as soon as it drops off. You cast it because it has higher DPCT than shadowbolt, and if it does you want to take advantage of that higher DPCT as often as possible. You will, in general, prioritize UA and corruption and just about every other spell in your spellbook as a higher priority except shadowbolt. It will have a higher DoT-gap than any of your other DoTs, which means that it's increasing your damage by less than its theoretical max, but still more than refreshing it every 18 seconds.

Whether or not immolate is worth casting in general depends on everything. I believe the presence or absence of frost mages in your guild is about the only thing that doesn't affect whether or not immolate is worth casting. It tends to hover on the edge of worth casting, being pushed to one side or the other by just about everything.
Basically my experience. I tend to avoid it (except on shahraz) just to simplify my play. 4 pc t6, though, should push immo over to the 'don't cast' side.
#1233SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Drained
Perfecting DPS

I have begun to read over the compendium and even after a considerable amount of time I have not made a dent in the information presented here. For this reason I wanted to directly ask the community a few simple questions. A little background info before I list my questions though. First, my guild is rapidly progressing and is 2/5 Hyjal thus far since our conception 3 weeks ago. Second, our raids usually consist of 2-3 fire mages, 1-2 spriests, 1 ele shammy, and anywhere from 2-4 locks (50% aff, 50% destro). Third, my self-buffed (fel armor only, no consumables) stats are as follows: 203 hit, 1223 shdw dmg, 1115 fire dmg, 14.83% crit.

My questions are:

1)Should I effectively be able to go destro with these stats? I tried it out on a full SSC clear and a Rage kill in Hyjal but was unimpressed. My crit felt low, thus not taking advantage of Ruin that often (cast sequence was Imm>SB spam). Or was my cast sequence garbage?

2)If destro cannot be pulled off with these stats, what spell rotation would be most beneficial to my spec (42/1/18)? I currently use CoA>UA>Corr>Imm>SB spam till first dots fall off>repeat.

3)Is haste worth it when I switch to destro? When I say worth it, I would be taking the Waistwrap of Infinity, Nimble Thought Bracers, and Ring of Ancient Knowledge. Or would it be better to go with pure dmg/crit over these items? It seems like haste would not be worth it if I stuck to the Imm>SB spam rotation because I would not be able to obtain enough haste to squeeze in an extra SB before reapplying Imm, hence rendering any haste virtually useless (using a rough calculation, I came up with ~185 haste rating needed to be able to squeeze in 6 SBs without losing a tick of Imm. This may be way off though.).

I apologize in advance if this has all been covered. I am asking because I am extremely competitive and have noticed being passed up by a destro lock, and an arcane mage (surprisingly enough) on the meters. Please offer any and all advice you can. Thanks in advance for the help.

Last edited by Drained : 01/31/08 at 10:07 AM.
#1234SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3moghed
We recently had a new warlock app who was speced destruction. His gear seemed slightly low for it, so I plugged it into the spreadsheet. Turned out destro was better. Slightly.

The World of Warcraft Armory

It's a very good illustration of the gear level you need for destro to be better. And it is late kara/early SSC.
#1235SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shai
Your crit rate as destro would be closer to 25% after talents and raid buffs, which is perfectly fine for that spec, as is the rest of your stats.

Why you were still below other casters can have many reasons, a look at a WWS parse would probably answer that best.
#1236SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Fafhrd
Originally Posted by Drained View Post
I have begun to read over the compendium and even after a considerable amount of time I have not made a dent in the information presented here. For this reason I wanted to directly ask the community a few simple questions.
-
My questions are:

1)Should I effectively be able to go destro with these stats?

2)If destro cannot be pulled off with these stats, what spell rotation would be most beneficial to my spec (42/1/18)? I currently use CoA>UA>Corr>Imm>SB spam till first dots fall off>repeat.

3)Is haste worth it when I switch to destro?
1) Basically yes. However you should take into account the upcoming bosses. Azgalor is much better as affliction, so is Archimonde and Supremus. In my opinion, don't go affliction until you have those bosses down unless you have huge problems with debuff slots. The threat reduction to affliction spells will also help you a lot on the trash.

2) Siphon Life is also worth casting.

3) Yes, up to 5-6% haste (in my experience). But drop Immolate, it's a distraction.

One thing that isn't mentioned much here: Your dps depends most of all on how good a player you are. If you want to max your dps you can't lose any time at all not casting a dps spell. That means
- always always having a Shadow Bolt going
- plan when to use trinkets
- discuss when to use drums and Bloodlust with your group
- macro your mana pot use and plan Life Taps for breaks in the action or if you are high on threat

Every boss is different and you want a personal and raid wide strategy for each.
#1237SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bolche
Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
- macro your mana pot use and plan Life Taps for breaks in the action or if you are high on threat
Can you explain this please ?
#1238SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Emolate
Originally Posted by Drained View Post
1)Should I effectively be able to go destro with these stats? I tried it out on a full SSC clear and a Rage kill in Hyjal but was unimpressed. My crit felt low, thus not taking advantage of Ruin that often (cast sequence was Imm>SB spam). Or was my cast sequence garbage?

2)If destro cannot be pulled off with these stats, what spell rotation would be most beneficial to my spec (42/1/18)? I currently use CoA>UA>Corr>Imm>SB spam till first dots fall off>repeat.

3)Is haste worth it when I switch to destro? When I say worth it, I would be taking the Waistwrap of Infinity, Nimble Thought Bracers, and Ring of Ancient Knowledge. Or would it be better to go with pure dmg/crit over these items? It seems like haste would not be worth it if I stuck to the Imm>SB spam rotation because I would not be able to obtain enough haste to squeeze in an extra SB before reapplying Imm, hence rendering any haste useless (using a rough calculation, I came up with ~185 haste rating needed to be able to squeeze in 6 SBs without losing a tick of Imm. This may be way off though.).
First off, /wave to another server-mate. Hardly ever see people from Eitrigg here.

1) Yes, you can be very effective at Destruction with those stats. The only reason I am not 0/21/40 anymore is that my guild needs a 3/3 Improved Imp and I need threat reduction or I spend 40-50% of a fight threat-locked.

3) Check the spreadsheet. You can find out what the rate of return on spellhaste is for your specific builds, specific stats. You can also play around in Warcrafter for the sake of easily changing out gear/gems/enchantments if nothing else. I generally find that going out of my way to stack spellhaste in my gear level (craftables/kara/gruul/tk) is not as valuable as stacking damage. This is something that changes frequently with gear acquisitions.

I use two spellhaste items because they work best for me. I use the badge-reward bracers because they do 3 more spelldamage than the ones I got in Karazhan, and I use the Fetish of the Primal Gods because it has a stamina boost that Orb of the Soul Eater does not. I switch between those two off-hands.

While it would be nice to be able to really use spellhaste gear and stack it, I know from using the spreadsheet that raw damage helps me more.

For what it's worth, I have never gone out of my way to stack spellcrit on any gear. Most people find spellhaste and crit are about the same in DPS value, though spelldamage is typically going to end up being your best place for improvement.
#1239SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Drained
1) Basically yes. However you should take into account the upcoming bosses. Azgalor is much better as affliction, so is Archimonde and Supremus. In my opinion, don't go affliction until you have those bosses down unless you have huge problems with debuff slots. The threat reduction to affliction spells will also help you a lot on the trash.

2) Siphon Life is also worth casting.

3) Yes, up to 5-6% haste (in my experience). But drop Immolate, it's a distraction.
First of all, thanks everyone for the quick responses. Keep them coming! Few questions though:

1) I assume you meant "...don't go destro until you have these bosses down...". Are you suggesting do the fights the first time through as affilction, then respec destro when our guild has them down?

2) If I do add SL to my DoT rotation, when would be the best time to cast it?

3) Can dropping immolate and just pure SB nuking really add to DPS? I have always heard immolate is worth casting. Very interested to hear any math/reasoning behind this.

Thanks again for the help!
#1240SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Emolate
Originally Posted by Drained View Post


2) If I do add SL to my DoT rotation, when would be the best time to cast it?

3) Can dropping immolate and just pure SB nuking really add to DPS? I have always heard immolate is worth casting. Very interested to hear any math/reasoning behind this.

Thanks again for the help!
2) When you have time to do so. The initial "rotation" doesn't mean much when you are going to be juggling them all from every point onwards. In a long fight you aren't going to have a rotation, you're going to be playing Whack-a-mole and filling the gaps with Shadow Bolts.

3) Check the spreadsheet?

It is very dependent upon the individual. The math is on the first post in this thread, as is a link to the spreadsheet.

There is even information on the very first post about Immolate versus Shadowbolt. I'll even quote it for you:


Immolate vs Shadow Bolt

Immolate has a much higher base damage then Shadow Bolt, and both have around the same spellpower coefficient (85%). For this reason, at low amounts of spellpower, keeping Immolate up is clearly a better choice. Some well geared warlocks drop this spell in favor of Shadow Bolt due to any combination of these factors:

- Higher hit/crit/haste rating benefits Shadowbolt.
- ISB debuff
- Most debuffs tend to favor SB instead (absence of CoE, Imp Scorch, CoS, ISB)
- More talents into SB (Shadow Mastery, Demonic Sacrifice, Shadow And Flame)
- More items that benefit SB ([Ritssyn's Lost Pendant], [Orb of the Soul-Eater], [Nethervoid Cloak], [Boots of the Shifting Nightmare], FSW and Soulfrost)
- Debuff slot shortage
- Higher mana cost per point of damage, so more life tap down time

Whether it's worth it for you should be checked with the appropriate tools: ShadowSeer, Leulier's sheet, DrDamage (all linked below). Even a lower damage-per-casting-time, it is worth it occasionally if you don't think you'll have the time to get a SB off or can't risk threat bursts.
#1241SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Cohren
There is no reason to wait for boss xx to be on farm. Doing high DPS as Destruction is just like doing high DPS with Affliction, you need to learn the spec and the play style. Also it comes down to what Fafhrd said, you need to be a skilled player. If your going to spec Destruction then try it over a period of time, not one clear of an instance.
#1242SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Bolche View Post
Can you explain this please ?
I'm pretty sure he just means remember to pot as destro in order to minimize your DPS-time spent Life Tapping. Saving life tap for non-DPS times (or lower DPS times) will increase your damage by a fair amount. Just be mindful of upcoming movement, BLs, drums, trinket cds, "Stop DPS" calls, etc.
#1243SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Knasen
I wonder why felguard gets so little attention. The personal dps is alot better than destro in early t6, do the ISB uptime really do so much for the raid? Sure, the felguard is useless on Archi and Najentus but on the rest of the fight he really shines (done up to Bloodboil). I don't dare to think of what petscaling would give the specc.
#1244SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Drained View Post
3)Is haste worth it when I switch to destro? When I say worth it, I would be taking the Waistwrap of Infinity, Nimble Thought Bracers, and Ring of Ancient Knowledge. Or would it be better to go with pure dmg/crit over these items? It seems like haste would not be worth it if I stuck to the Imm>SB spam rotation because I would not be able to obtain enough haste to squeeze in an extra SB before reapplying Imm, hence rendering any haste virtually useless (using a rough calculation, I came up with ~185 haste rating needed to be able to squeeze in 6 SBs without losing a tick of Imm. This may be way off though.).

I apologize in advance if this has all been covered. I am asking because I am extremely competitive and have noticed being passed up by a destro lock, and an arcane mage (surprisingly enough) on the meters. Please offer any and all advice you can. Thanks in advance for the help.
The [Waistwrap of Infinity] is a lousy belt. Stick with your Belt of Blasting.
#1245SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Knasen View Post
I wonder why felguard gets so little attention. The personal dps is alot better than destro in early t6, do the ISB uptime really do so much for the raid? Sure, the felguard is useless on Archi and Najentus but on the rest of the fight he really shines (done up to Bloodboil). I don't dare to think of what petscaling would give the specc.
I think it has received proper attention. There was plenty of talk of it in the previous Warlock thread and posts describing strategies on how to use it effectively in different fights. I think it gets held back long term as it requires you to keep 2PT5 and maybe even the Solarian trinket to keep the guy alive. Once you have access to 4PT6 that hurts even more since you see lower return from the SB-buff. For me, I won't spec into it since the upcoming difficult fights (and hardest farm fights) don't favor pets at all.
#1246SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Fafhrd
Originally Posted by Bolche View Post
Can you explain this please ?
Use a simple macro for taking mana pots, minimizing time lost casting:
-
/use Super Mana Potion
/cast Shadow Bolt
-
For Life Taps, sometimes it's more beneficial to do a tap as soon as you can to fill the mana bar up, but you should plan it so you have enough mana to go all out during Bloodlust/drums/trinkets. This also depends on if you can expect healing or expect to take damage.

About using Immolate: On paper it's often a few dps more than just SB - even taking ISB uptime in account, but in real life it often interferes with your timing and you lose either casting time or part of a dot. If there's movement in the fight I usually put it up before moving though.

Last edited by Fafhrd : 01/31/08 at 1:43 PM.
#1247SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
For affliction it seems on the spreadsheet to not really matter what variables you try to change, immolate is always worth casting. For destruction I agree it's different.

As for dot juggling, since you always cast UA+corruption together (unless you get a resist), no matter when you cast immolate, sooner or later (in fact, in the 5th UA+corruption cast at most if you're not moving every time UA+corruption need refreshing), immolate will run out at the same time as UA+corruption. At that point you obviously choose to refresh UA+corruption first and immolate later. However I was looking into the option of refreshing immolate too early instead of too late so that it has 100% uptime without losing any UA/corruption damage, however it just doesn't seem worth it. The result is if you stand and shoot you will always refresh immolate right after UA+corruption (ignoring resists), which means once every 18 seconds (plus whatever dot gap you have that applies to all dots). There is no way around this that will actually increase your DPS.
#1248SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vreki
Originally Posted by Eph View Post
I forgot it was 10%, my last post and one before it put it at 20%.


70 Human Warlock

And, finally, I believe this is the best gear set for a warlock with an elemental shaman, other raid buffs, and food/flask/oil, though no shadow priest which only matters on the spreadsheet's mp5. After entering all the data to the spreadsheet I got 2222.85dps. After tinkering with this for quite a while I found most dps changes were within 5dps of each other, with only one set at 14dps difference, so most gear setups will probably all perform the same with all endgame gear. Though if anyone see's a better option I'd be glad to try it.
Per that setup right now the meta gem is inactive, remember to swap the boot or shoulder gems.
#1249SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Eph
Originally Posted by vreki View Post
Per that setup right now the meta gem is inactive, remember to swap the boot or shoulder gems.
Two blue? Belt + Wand. Or am I missing something?
#1250SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shai
Was Darkmoon Card: Crusade changed to proc on all SoC hits or did it always do that? I seem to remember it only added a charge on the initial spell hit, but while doing Hyjal trash I just noticed it goes from 0 to 10 in one explosion.
#1251SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Eph
Originally Posted by Shai View Post
Was Darkmoon Card: Crusade changed to proc on all SoC hits or did it always do that? I seem to remember it only added a charge on the initial spell hit, but while doing Hyjal trash I just noticed it goes from 0 to 10 in one explosion.
Don't know that it was changed, as far as I know it always has.
#1252SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vreki
Originally Posted by Eph View Post
Two blue? Belt + Wand. Or am I missing something?
Oh, sorry, I missed the wand. Not used to seeing that one instead of the TK one!
#1253SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Eph
Originally Posted by vreki View Post
Oh, sorry, I missed the wand. Not used to seeing that one instead of the TK one!
Yeah, and in your case as horde that TK one would be better since your shaman don't give the 1% Hit Aura.
#1254SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
aphro1
Meta of choice for end game raiding?

Hi everyone, just a quick question, i wanted to know if anyone has tried the meta gem entitled [Bracing Earthstorm Diamond] in end game raiding (BT/MH)

I was under the impression it would not work properly with caster dps, althou when looking at it, in theory it might work. The benefits would in theory be only 9 spelldamage and -2% threat, (i would only loose out 3 spelldamage and minor run speed on my current choice of meta) which whilst added to destructive reach and subtlety enchant, shud be quite nice, (-14% threat), especially for insane agro generating destro locks.

Has anyone tried it ?

thanks in advance

aph

edit: the item link is out of date, the current stats of the gem is 26 healing and 9 spelldamage, and 2% reduced threat., also the gem requirements are "more red than blue".
Bracing Earthstorm Diamond @ wowhead

Last edited by aphro1 : 01/31/08 at 6:18 PM.
#1255SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 frmorrison
The BED does give 9 damage as well as 2% threat and has very easy gem requirements.

If you need the -threat (i.e. have poor tanks), then it is an option.
#1256SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Alonso
Hi guys just a quick question. I heard of 21/40 build in terms of shadow, and I understand that understand that it would require at least 1000 shadow damage, 202 spell hit and 20% spell critical.

I have a few questions
20% spell critical includes talents?
I do understand that warlocks need 202 spell hit on level 73 bosses.
If i would have 190 spell hit, does it means that my shadow bolt is not getting full damage? or is it just 2% chance missing when up against a level 73 boss.

I have viewed many end game locks in armory and seen many locks do not have 20% crit UNTALENTED, they are mainly in BT.
How much does crit out dps spell damage in end games?

I have recently tried to hit 202 spell hit, 20% crit, and 1000 shadow damage(unbuff.)

Can I get help/suggestions on my current gear/spec best on my gear.
The World of Warcraft Armory
Currently my shadowbolts hit for 2.6k average and 4k when crit, is this normal? How much a 21/40 warlock damages when shadow bolting?
Seeking for help to improved raiding.
Thank you.
#1257SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ammanas
It could conceivably be an option and might be worth adding to the meta section in the OP, but you would have to be in really dire straits to take it over the CSD. You're better off trying to get a TA totem or getting a shaman in your tank group to help with threat, but if you don't have any other options you could check it out... but if you're having such horrible threat problems that you are considering this I doubt the 2% threat reduction is going to be that big of a benefit. Just my opinion though.
#1258SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Ele'
[Edit] My bad, I mistaked the T6 helm for the Illidan one... so let me delete this useless post and blame that on the lack of coffee :'(

Last edited by Ele' : 02/01/08 at 4:04 AM.
#1259SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Talosh
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
I think it has received proper attention. There was plenty of talk of it in the previous Warlock thread and posts describing strategies on how to use it effectively in different fights. I think it gets held back long term as it requires you to keep 2PT5 and maybe even the Solarian trinket to keep the guy alive. Once you have access to 4PT6 that hurts even more since you see lower return from the SB-buff. For me, I won't spec into it since the upcoming difficult fights (and hardest farm fights) don't favor pets at all.
The 2PT5 is fair enough for playing demo and it can compete in most fights in MH/BT. Felguard-Raiding is much more fun than the sb-artillery, but you need to know more details for the boss encounters (e.g. call back the demon for a moment when Illidan is casting flame crash) which aren't of any interest when being destro. In my eyes its also a bit stronger in movement fights like Supremus and Archimonde, but for pure single target tank & spank destro beats it due to the 4PT6. ISB-uptime is absolutely no argument for or against Felguardspec since you have the same spellrotation on boss fights (Curse, SB SB SB SB, reapply Curse, ...).

One of the best advantages of destro is when learning fights, since you don't have to watch your DoTimer and can concentrate much more on the encounter itself (Illidan Council is a very good example to avoid the AoE effects).
#1260SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Xzal
Offtanking Illidan

Couldnt find a specific thread for this, but all the strats didnt say anything about whether or not Netherprotection is a go or no-go when offtanking. i know it makes me immune, but not totally positive if that'll make me temp break aggro while its procced
#1261SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Codpiece
Token Affliction lock chiming in here! Sorry if this has allready been covered a million times, but I'm wondering if I should switch over to 40/0/21. Putting my numbers in the spreadsheets give me lower DPS, but I was thinking if the spec would actually give me better utility (like dps on trash, less pushback on bolts) and maybe even more dps. I was thinking that since the spreadsheet measures perfect play, and less dots are "easier" to play that I actually would be able to put out more dps in real encounters.

Also, I'm guessing that when putting nubers into the spreadsheet I should do so raid buffed, as that's the situation I'm trying to measure. I guess I'm looking for people who has experience with this spec and could tell me if my gear was up for the switch. I'm intentionally a little low on hit as supression helps me out a great deal. This factor will of course diminish slightly if I made the switch.

I'd love to do a little more DPS, annoys the hell out of me that having more stuff to do gimps my dps. Ah well, at least I'm enjoying it. Tried destro for some time, and I guess the big numbers are fun :P

<- armory profile at the avatar space
#1262SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Actually with the "DoT gap" in the spreadsheet sometimes it actually undervalues your ability to play well, as the default is set to 2 seconds which is probably too high considering on average it'd be 1/2 a shadowbolt + safety measure (where safety measure should be (<max latency> - <minimum latency>), which is generally a rather small number), and even less if you do a tap/pact when you see the gap with shadowbolt would be >1s, so if you can actually get mana from LT/DP at that point every time it happens your dot gap will actually go down to an average of 0.75s+safety. Anyway I don't see a reason for average 2s dot gap other than simply bad play or very very movement intensive fight, which would hurt your shadowbolts more than it hurts your DoTs anyway.

Also the ruin build will also gain a lot less from fights that allow multi-dotting and will lose more on fights where you need to move, but will gain more from fights with just enough pushback to make UA builds lose a lot of dps time but not extreme pushback as that would make you unable to cast much more than your DoTs anyway (although such a high level of pushback is quite unrealistic in most fights at least, so overall you can say the ruin build is more pushback resistant).
#1263SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Codpiece
I never even noticed that option, that spreadsheet is more elaborate than I thought

Thanks for the reply, I'm guessing that means that I have no reason to switch over. It seems as if i need several pieces of BT/MH pieces to spec out of UA. Was just wondering since the spec was mentioned in the OP. 0/21/40 is not really an option as I'm the malediction/imp/SE bitch.
#1264SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
ISB simulator and results

Just figured I'd post what I got playing with the ISB simulator, considering how much sampling it took and that such experiements weren't really done before to evaluate the extra value of crit that comes from ISB:

Baseline: 1 aff lock (20% crit), 2 destro locks (2% haste each. 30% crit), 3 shadow priests.

ISB uptime: 55.62 +-0.13 %

Adding 3% crit to the aff lock:
ISB uptime: 56.53 +-0.13 %

Adding 3% to a destro lock (instead of the aff lock):
ISB uptime: 57.05 +-0.11 %

Note that the '+-' is because of variance, I ran the simulator at max fight length 50 times for each setup to get those results. Would take much longer to significantly reduce the error.

ISB increase for adding 3% to the aff lock: 0.9 +-0.19 %
ISB increase for adding 3% to the destro lock: 1.42 +-0.17 %

Assuming the ISB time is approximately linear to the crit chance at this range (as in, I know it's not linear, but assuming it's close enough to linear when you only change crit chance by 3%) allows to say:

ISB increase per crit rating for the aff lock: 0.0045 +-0.0029 %
ISB increase per crit rating for the destro lock: 0.0215 +-0.0026 %

Assuming DPS for the shadow priests and destruction warlocks and multiplying the total by the ISB increase * 0.2 (since ISB is 20% increase when it's up) yields a noticeable increase in crit value in comparison to spell damage. My baseline affliction warlock for example goes up from 0.22 dmg per 1 crit rating to 0.33, and the destruction lock goes from 0.6 spell dmg per crit rating up to 1. Playing with different stats slightly changes this, of course, but the bottom line is ISB is a rather significant factor when it comes for determining the value of crit rating for all warlocks (even affliction), and 1 crit rating can actually beat 1 spell damage (or at least come very close). This still means +12 damage gems are the best but items with yellow sockets and a good socket bonus suddenly become something worth considering (for example 2 dmg bonus for yellow socket makes 6 dmg 5 crit superior to 12 damage in that socket).

I do wish the simulator would allow you to run much longer fights to reduce the variance in the results, though, as going over it 50 times was bad enough, improving it noticeably would require at least 200 measurements (150 more for each setup!)... Since it's just a loop that repeats itself I see no reason to just allow it to run longer, however as of now there is still a maximum.

On a side note the huge variance in ISB uptime on such a long measurement means it's completely pointless to use any WWS/combatlog or any kind of in-game measurements to determine the value of ISB, even if it actually becomes possible to do so accurately in 2.4.
#1265SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Talosh View Post
The 2PT5 is fair enough for playing demo and it can compete in most fights in MH/BT. Felguard-Raiding is much more fun than the sb-artillery, but you need to know more details for the boss encounters (e.g. call back the demon for a moment when Illidan is casting flame crash) which aren't of any interest when being destro. In my eyes its also a bit stronger in movement fights like Supremus and Archimonde, but for pure single target tank & spank destro beats it due to the 4PT6. ISB-uptime is absolutely no argument for or against Felguardspec since you have the same spellrotation on boss fights (Curse, SB SB SB SB, reapply Curse, ...).
Hmm, as FG-demo you should really take a look at your DPCT on corruption and immolate, as I can almost guarantee they are worth casting. Depending on the spec, you can end up with more crit than any other spec, but since you're casting the dots it's a wash. It's certainly more fun than destro though ... if you screw up just a little and your demon eats damage too quick to dismiss without his buffs, you'll likely be in for a painful rest of the fight.

Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
ISB increase for adding 3% to the aff lock: 0.9 +-0.19 %
ISB increase for adding 3% to the destro lock: 1.42 +-0.17 %
...
My baseline affliction warlock for example goes up from 0.22 dmg per 1 crit rating to 0.33, and the destruction lock goes from 0.6 spell dmg per crit rating up to 1. Playing with different stats slightly changes this, of course, but the bottom line is ISB is a rather significant factor when it comes for determining the value of crit rating for all warlocks (even affliction), and 1 crit rating can actually beat 1 spell damage (or at least come very close).
...
I do wish the simulator would allow you to run much longer fights to reduce the variance in the results, though, as going over it 50 times was bad enough, improving it noticeably would require at least 200 measurements (150 more for each setup!)... Since it's just a loop that repeats itself I see no reason to just allow it to run longer, however as of now there is still a maximum..
Those numbers match up almost exactly to the modeled (non-sim) numbers I've been using for months I didn't dig around to find the exact "destro" and "aff" cast-ratios, but using 90% destro, 50% aff->
Isb increase by adding 3% crit to:
Aff: 0.94
Dest: 1.67

Given that, the simulator really doesn't need to be stretched much more since it seems to be agreeing with modeled numbers pretty damn well (which are included in the latest spreadsheet). I've been using a number between 0.9-1.05 for crit for a while depending on the typical raid composition.
#1266SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Finally a buff for in 2.4 Affliction Locks (too bad Destro still scales better with haste), with 520 spell haste rating you can cast your DoTs 0.5 seconds faster .

I need to pickup a ring of ancient knowledge now.
#1267SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
galzohar
The reason the simulator needs to be stretched a LOT is that I needed to run it 50 times at max length just to get ~0.1-0.15% error. Increase the max to 250-1000 times as much as it is now and you can get rather reliable results by just running it once.
Remember that assuming something that we know is not linear scales linearly is only approximately true when your value doesn't change much. At first I wanted to run it with 1% crit difference however I ended up with a deviation too close to the actual difference and thus the results were meaningless.
If the simulator could give a deviation of the uptime as well it would be awesome too, so you don't have to run it several times to see how accurate it is. If you go to the simulator and run it a couple times you'll see what I mean.

Anyway the bottom line is it makes crit more or less on par with spell dmg point for point for destruction, which is noticeably higher than the spreadsheet shows. And for affliction it's more like 0.33 rather than 0.22, which while still low is a significant difference.


EDIT: Looking at the formulas the spreadsheet does seem to assume SWD is being cast every 12 seconds, which set my results off a little. Wish you could set overall shadow damage spells frequency for shadow priest that I can get from a shadow priest simulator, considering VT and probably SWP are still a priority for MB/SWD.

Last edited by galzohar : 02/01/08 at 7:46 PM.
#1268SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
The reason the simulator needs to be stretched a LOT is that I needed to run it 50 times at max length just to get ~0.1-0.15% error. Increase the max to 250-1000 times as much as it is now and you can get rather reliable results by just running it once.
Remember that assuming something that we know is not linear scales linearly is only approximately true when your value doesn't change much. At first I wanted to run it with 1% crit difference however I ended up with a deviation too close to the actual difference and thus the results were meaningless.
If the simulator could give a deviation of the uptime as well it would be awesome too, so you don't have to run it several times to see how accurate it is. If you go to the simulator and run it a couple times you'll see what I mean.

Anyway the bottom line is it makes crit more or less on par with spell dmg point for point for destruction, which is noticeably higher than the spreadsheet shows. And for affliction it's more like 0.33 rather than 0.22, which while still low is a significant difference.
I understand that it's not super accurate at telling you next-stat comparisons unless it's run many times. My point is that since running it many times matches up very well with the models created for ISB-uptime, we can just use the models instead of running a simulation 10,000 times.

Are you using the latest version of the spreadsheet? Mine puts crit at roughly the same value as spell damage if you use the Raid ISB tab. If anything the model slightly OVER-emphasizes crit compared to the sims.
#1269SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Fafhrd
Made some quick calculations, and the buff to spell haste affecting GCD is about 1% buff to dps for a 0/21/40 warlock with 5% spell haste ratings, maybe 1.5%.
#1270SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
I was using an older version that didn't have the "Raid TNS" option. Looking at the default raid ISB settings you need to change a lot there to match a real raid (for example SWDs not counted, do 1/(1/MBCD+1/SWDCD) to get real average time between shadow spells for shadow priest, but remember sometimes it doesn't sync so it's actually a little longer than that). Using that I get exactly 1 crit = 1 dmg, which is pretty much what I got using the old spreadsheet version modifying crit myself.
So yeah no point with the simulator when the model works just fine and doesn't have variance ;p

The practical conclusion remains the same, 1 crit is more or less equal to 1 spell dmg for a destruction warlock, which is much higher than how good crit is for any other class (even fire mages only get 0.7-0.85 or so).
#1271SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Suggestive
Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
Made some quick calculations, and the buff to spell haste affecting GCD is about 1% buff to dps for a 0/21/40 warlock with 5% spell haste ratings, maybe 1.5%.
I figured it would be a non issue till i remembered lifetap will get affected by it too. Its not the biggest DPS increase in the world, but it makes stacking haste much less of a liability than it used to be.
#1272SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
galzohar
2.4 changes will actually make it a lot more realistic to get 2XUA/corruption inside a 20s trinket, but that would require actually equip haste which isn't exactly a top stat for you considering it doesn't make dots tick any faster ;p

Haste for destruction will probably see a nice small improvement, and will chage the point where immolate turns from worth casting to not worth casting if you have any haste.


Looking at the effect casting immolate has on ISB, it makes it pretty break-even with full fire talents, scorch and CoE if you consider the ISB drop, although with stats close to default it's still a very (VERY) small DPS gain. With extremely high spell dmg and/or 4/6 T6 it becomes just a waste of a spot on your castbar.

Last edited by galzohar : 02/01/08 at 7:52 PM.
#1273SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Brachamul
Hi, just a quick question about Shadow and Fire destro.

It is said in the original post that, thanks to ISB, Shadow scales better than Fire. However Fire also gets a bonus from the mage's +15% debuff thanks to Scorch. In the end though I guess Shadow also gains 10% from priests that Fire doesn't get...

I'm confused about which between Fire and Shadow is the better DPS. I've calculated that just spamming SB can bring a Lock with SSC/TK gear to 1600 dps, and that seems kinda... lame.
#1274SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Brachamul View Post
Hi, just a quick question about Shadow and Fire destro.

It is said in the original post that, thanks to ISB, Shadow scales better than Fire. However Fire also gets a bonus from the mage's +15% debuff thanks to Scorch. In the end though I guess Shadow also gains 10% from priests that Fire doesn't get...

I'm confused about which between Fire and Shadow is the better DPS. I've calculated that just spamming SB can bring a Lock with SSC/TK gear to 1600 dps, and that seems kinda... lame.
So your question is, should you be lame and just spam SB and do more damage or be less lame and cast immolate and then spam Incinerate? With the current modifiers, Shadow scales better than Fire. You can verify this by plugging numbers into the spreadsheet with maxed out debuffs.
#1275SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pentamorfi
Originally Posted by Alonso View Post
Hi guys just a quick question. I heard of 21/40 build in terms of shadow, and I understand that understand that it would require at least 1000 shadow damage, 202 spell hit and 20% spell critical.

I have a few questions
20% spell critical includes talents?
I do understand that warlocks need 202 spell hit on level 73 bosses.
If i would have 190 spell hit, does it means that my shadow bolt is not getting full damage? or is it just 2% chance missing when up against a level 73 boss.

I have viewed many end game locks in armory and seen many locks do not have 20% crit UNTALENTED, they are mainly in BT.
How much does crit out dps spell damage in end games?

I have recently tried to hit 202 spell hit, 20% crit, and 1000 shadow damage(unbuff.)

Can I get help/suggestions on my current gear/spec best on my gear.
The World of Warcraft Armory
Currently my shadowbolts hit for 2.6k average and 4k when crit, is this normal? How much a 21/40 warlock damages when shadow bolting?
Seeking for help to improved raiding.
Thank you.
To answer your questions:

About crit, theorycraft will tell you that 20% talented crit will be enough for Destro, in practice though I've found that anything shy of 25% "feels" quite lame. You'll be getting long streaks of 3k bolts, and I found that boring and demoralising, even when compared to the steady damage Affliction does.

190 hit rating means that roughly 2% of your spells will be resisted completely, not partially. Spell hit doesn't help with partial resists, spell penetration does, and you get all you need with CoE/CoS most of the time.

Yeah, your numbers sound normal considering you don't have Ruin. A destro lock in your gear would see hits of around 2.9k and crits of 5.8k+.

Looking at your gear, don't forget that damage amplifies your DPS more than crit ever will. If I were you, I'd change those crit and crit/dmg gems for pure damage and drop Xiri's gift for the badges or the ZA trinket. And I'd wait a bit longer before speccing Destro, to be honest. That's just my personal opinion though, not gospel.
#1276SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
I don't see the point of saying a spec is "dull" in a thread that's supposed to be about how to play effectively. If you find something superior boring in comparison to the inferior choice, nobody will ever be able to convince you otherwise, as "interest" is a very personal thing. If you want to play "what's interesting" instead of "what's effective" why are you even reading those forums? As you're obviously ignoring what actually effects your dps...

Bottom line, you can theorycraft what will do most dps, you can't theorycraft what will be most fun, so I wouldn't even bother trying
#1277SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nerull
Any warlock also has questions about how the supposed change with haste in regards to global cooldown is going to affect affliction dps ? ( Haste will reduce the GCD in 2.4 )

Can it be a significant improvement for affliction dps ? I am troubled by it as now spellhaste will affect ALL spells so it should ( ? ) be better than crit point for point, but thing that troubles me is that you are going to lose imp. SB uptime which means a dps loss again. Other problem is is that you are going to have an about normal amount of crit ( BT geared : 20% raidbuffed ? ) and then take spellhaste gear , I feel that you are going to lose too much spelldamage to gain any benefit from it at all in fact I think you will even lose quite some.

So question : Is pumping up spellhaste even a good way to go despite the changes that might favor it ? Or is there an ideal amount of spellhaste to go for ?

Im sorry I havent been able to provide any math, I admit it is too complicated for me. Basicly what I want to know is at what crit% does spellhase become more important than crit and is there gear obtainable to have both without losing spelldamage ( which still seems most important stat to me ).

Variables :

Spelldamage ( assuming 1500 raidbuffed in BT gear ? )
Crit rating
Haste rating

Many thanks in advance !
#1278SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Your DoTs will not tick any faster and thus the extra haste will only mean a reduction to time spent casting 1.5s spells on top of what it was already giving, meaning you can fill in more shadowbolts. According to lieuler's spreadsheet in tank group aff lock would spend about 10% of the time DP/LT, and ~44% casting non-shadowbolt spells, so haste will be quite better for aff than it is now. However:
On a X minute fight, 1% haste will increase cast time used on *shadowbolts* by X/100, and still not a 1% dps increase. Since with the stats I put in shadowbolts are only 1221 dps, 1% haste will increase the overall dps by 12.2 which is less than 1% of the total 1455 dps. Since this is just for showing the general idea I'm not going to go into mana costs.

Overall modifying lieuler's spreadsheet to account for the change should be pretty easy, except for "the next stat" part since I'm not sure how that is calculated.
#1279SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3PSGarak
The haste change will make 1% haste give a full 1% damage increase to destro locks, instead of the sub-1% they used to see because of lifetap, bringing them in line with mage types for haste scaling. For affliction warlocks the picture is considerably more complicated, but I can tell you flat out that 1% haste will be noticeably less than 1% damage. Until haste starts accelerating the rate at which DoTs tick, you are still hard-capped on how often you can refresh your DoTs. They will still do the same damage. The haste-GCD means haste now allows you to cram more additional shadowbolts, although realistically the additional shadowbolts will not come out to one full shadowbolt, except in bloodlust/heroism situations, meaning no real benefit.

Note that while 1% haste means more than 1% additional shadowbolts in an affliction (or otherwise cooldown-limited or pseudo-cooldown-limited) situation, some quick and easy thought experiments can easily show that without duration hasting, it will always be less than 1% raw damage so long as the cooldown-limited spells are worth casting at all (ie better DPCT than the filler).
#1280SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
I already said it was fight length X1% spent on shadowbolt casting rather than 1% more shadowbolts, which is still less than a 1% DPS increase since the DoTs are higher DPCT and you're not casting more DoTs.
#1281SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Talosh
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
Hmm, as FG-demo you should really take a look at your DPCT on corruption and immolate, as I can almost guarantee they are worth casting. Depending on the spec, you can end up with more crit than any other spec, but since you're casting the dots it's a wash. It's certainly more fun than destro though ... if you screw up just a little and your demon eats damage too quick to dismiss without his buffs, you'll likely be in for a painful rest of the fight.
For DPCT sure, but two aspects why I personally don't:
- more ISB-uptime, more raiddps
- the stupidity of a one-button-spam allows me to care more for the felguard

Haste and its reduction of the GCD
It will be a buff for Affliction and Mages, but not that much.
It only results, that all kind of caster classes are going for the haste items no matter if its even less worthy than for another raid member (in my guild now ALL mages and warlocks wants the trinket and the staff, before the news were released only one fire mage and me were interested in the haste items).

Last edited by Talosh : 02/04/08 at 3:53 AM.
#1282SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Talosh View Post
For DPCT sure, but two aspects why I personally don't:
- more ISB-uptime, more raiddps
- the stupidity of a one-button-spam allows me to care more for the felguard
You need to watch the line between ISB uptime and personal DPS. Include it in your calculations, but dropping spells which will easily up your DPS is probably detrimental to overall Raid DPS. The SB-spam out of a FG spec isn't that spectacular, so I would suggest making sure you're casting the right spells. An extra DoT or two isn't going to sap too much attention from pet management.
#1283SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Yugra
I'm looking for advice on increasing my DPS, given the roles that I currently fill in raids - Strider kiter and Leotheras tank. My current spec.

A little background: I'm in a raiding organization, not a guild - so our raid composition can vary greatly from night to night, and I've respecced to support both my Leo tanking and Strider kiting roles. When I was 21/40 (before we got to Vashj, our first kill was last night), I could put out around 1.2k DPS on a non-AE fight with my current gear (no frozen shadoweave) and often troubled connection. On the same fights now, my DPS is down in the 750-850 range - and so I'm feeling pretty gimped.

I've got CoEx to help keep the striders slowed (and DoT boosting talents to help with threat), and improved searing pain for Leotheras (and the striders, when netted). CoEx is pretty necessary here, as I need to run with the assumption that the only other slowing/immobilizing effect will be nets (we usually have more slows, however I need to spec for the worst-case scenario).

Are there any suggestions as to how I can increase my DPS - perhaps an improved spec that allows me to support both roles? Or am I pretty much stuck with my current performance level given my raiding situation?

Thanks.
(armory may not be accurately reflecting my gear for boss fights, so please don't yell about my spellhit >_>)

Last edited by Yugra : 02/04/08 at 3:19 PM.
#1284SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Yugra View Post
I'm looking for advice on increasing my DPS, given the roles that I currently fill in raids - Strider kiter and Leotheras tank. My current spec.

A little background: I'm in a raiding organization, not a guild - so our raid composition can vary greatly from night to night, and I've respecced to support both my Leo tanking and Strider kiting roles. When I was 21/40 (before we got to Vashj, our first kill was last night), I could put out around 1.2k DPS on a non-AE fight with my current gear (no frozen shadoweave) and often troubled connection. On the same fights now, my DPS is down in the 750-850 range - and so I'm feeling pretty gimped.

I've got CoEx to help keep the striders slowed (and DoT boosting talents to help with threat), and improved searing pain for Leotheras (and the striders, when netted). CoEx is pretty necessary here, as I need to run with the assumption that the only other slowing/immobilizing effect will be nets (we usually have more slows, however I need to spec for the worst-case scenario).

Are there any suggestions as to how I can increase my DPS - perhaps an improved spec that allows me to support both roles? Or am I pretty much stuck with my current performance level given my raiding situation?

Thanks.
(armory may not be accurately reflecting my gear for boss fights, so please don't yell about my spellhit >_>)
I would say that since you have Vashj down, Leo is probably not too hard for your guild. At that point you really don't need to worry about speccing for the fight anymore as any of the lock specs works fine as long as healers know what to do. Given that you can spec to do DPS as well as kite striders. For this I'd argue you only really need to pick up CoEx, which means you could go the typical 43/0/18 type spec. You should do fine holding aggro and this lets your DPS not suck for the rest of the fights
#1285SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Valgasha
Affliction and Hit Rating

Apologies if this has been asked before, a search of the thread produced nothing -

I am looking for some further commentary / verification of the first post's claim that Affliction is better off with 76 spell hit and 5/5 Suppression, gemming for +damage, than gemming for hit cap. I've recently been switched from 0/21/40 to the Affliction utility Warlock; I am still gemmed with a good number of +8s for the hitcap. I'm wondering if it's worth it to re-gem. Price is no object, just whether +9 spell damage gems are worth more, point-for-point, than +8 spell hit gems.
#1286SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
You need 44 in affliction to get CoEx and keep all the basic raiding talents.
#1287SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bogeywoman
Originally Posted by Valgasha View Post
Apologies if this has been asked before, a search of the thread produced nothing -

I am looking for some further commentary / verification of the first post's claim that Affliction is better off with 76 spell hit and 5/5 Suppression, gemming for +damage, than gemming for hit cap. I've recently been switched from 0/21/40 to the Affliction utility Warlock; I am still gemmed with a good number of +8s for the hitcap. I'm wondering if it's worth it to re-gem. Price is no object, just whether +9 spell damage gems are worth more, point-for-point, than +8 spell hit gems.
40% of affliction's damage comes from shadowbolts, and in several fights, threat cap may come into play. If you're OK with having 10% of your shadowbolts resist, and having a 10% chance to have your soulshatter resist, then go for pure damage, but that's risky play imo.
#1288SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
If your tanks can't out-threat an "imp-bitch" affliction warlock then you have bigger issues. If you're speccing for dps rather than imp/shadow embrace might as well consider destruction, as it will add more raid dps than affliction assuming your gear doesn't completely suck (and if it does you won't be threat capped anyway).
Shadowbolts resisting is perfectly fine as in the end you're doing more dps with stacking damage - you lose some shadowbolt dps and gain quite a bit of dot damage in comparision when you drop hit for dmg. Overall it's a net increase in DPS.
Banishes and any other CC are never done on "boss" mobs, so your 6% hit that even affliction with 5/5 suppression should have will more than hit-cap you on level 72 mobs.
The only thing you're losing is avoiding soulshatter resists, which shouldn't really be a problem not to mention even if you cap your hit it'll still have a 1% chance to resist. So even with 6% hit it'll resist on 10/100 fights, out of the many many more fights where you actually need it. See warrior thread for more about threat capping.
#1289SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
If we know the AOE caps can they be included in the main post with explanations?
#1290SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
If we know the AOE caps can they be included in the main post with explanations?
I'd love to add this if we have definitive data.
#1291SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
rochan
I have roughly calculated the new gains from haste. Assuming ~115 Haste, 1600 shadow dmg, you'll gain about 20 dps from the quicker lifetap and IF they make it so haste affects dot duration (which it should) your CoD will go down to ~55 seconds, which is an improvement of ~20 dps also. Man that would be pretty sweet.

edit, although looking at it again, unless they decrease the CoD cooldown, it won't actually gain much benefit.

Last edited by rochan : 02/05/08 at 10:38 AM.
#1292SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Indaril
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this should be absolute end-gear for 0/21/40 atm?

70 Human Warlock

Last edited by Indaril : 02/05/08 at 10:37 AM.
#1293SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Roywyn
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
I'd love to add this if we have definitive data.
WoW Forums -> Sunday morning PTR AoE Cap testing

Post 50

Seed of Corruption AoE cap is 13580.

Cap is the total amount of non-crit damage on all targets that are hit and didn't resist. The cap includes +damage gear and talents, and damage buffs like zone buffs, arcane power, power infusion and (most likely, needs a quick test demonic sacrifice.
Crit allows to go over the cap. Debuffs on the target might allow to go over the cap as well (CoE/CoS/Misery/Vulnerability) - debuffed targets in a pack take more damage than non-debuffed ones.


That should still be up to date, I hope.
#1294SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Roywyn
Originally Posted by Indaril View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this should be absolute end-gear for 0/21/40 atm?

70 Human Warlock
Get Belt of Blasting, Mana-attuned Band and use Zhar'doom.
Use a dmg/crit orange gem in your hat. Maybe into your gloves too.

Try the Illidari Council cloak, you should be able to bridge the hit cap with the Ring of Captured Storms or a dmg/hit gem in one slot. You need to experiment a bit there.
#1295SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Eph
Originally Posted by Roywyn View Post
Get Belt of Blasting, Mana-attuned Band and use Zhar'doom.
Use a dmg/crit orange gem in your hat. Maybe into your gloves too.

Try the Illidari Council cloak, you should be able to bridge the hit cap with the Ring of Captured Storms or a dmg/hit gem in one slot. You need to experiment a bit there.
Try getting the socket bonus in the helm and meeting the gem requirements for the meta.

I posted the ideal set for a lock with an elemental shaman a few pages back ( 70 Human Warlock ), for a lock without one I believe the only changes were [Tempest of Chaos], [Chronicle of Dark Secrets], [Wand of the Forgotten Star] and getting socked bonus in the gloves and shoulders for max dps. Both of these setups were tested with every other gear change I could think of and compared on the spreadsheet. I could have missed something though.
#1296SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Indaril
Originally Posted by Roywyn View Post
Get Belt of Blasting, Mana-attuned Band and use Zhar'doom.
Use a dmg/crit orange gem in your hat. Maybe into your gloves too.

Try the Illidari Council cloak, you should be able to bridge the hit cap with the Ring of Captured Storms or a dmg/hit gem in one slot. You need to experiment a bit there.
  • Zhar'doom is worse then the main/off-hand combination...according to leulier's table, its about 15 dps lower. In that calculation, i wasn't even considering losing 36 hit.
  • Belt of Blasting is 5dps worse then Anetheron's Noose as well.
  • Considering I'm already at the hit-cap, ring of captured storms is 10 dps lower then Ring of Ancient Knowledge...Mana Attuned Band is only usefull as well when you need hit else its almost 10 dps lower then RoAK
  • Illidari Council Cloak would in fact be better, I'm gonna compensate for the hit using veiled pyrestones to add to the 2 blue gems in shoulder and feet(changed)
  • The gem in the head is my bad, as well as I forgot about the 2 blues for the CSD. (changed)

Wanted to get 202 hit simply because I didn't want to really rely on a shaman in my group.

So the link is updated, any more feedback?

70 Human Warlock
#1297SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bogeywoman
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
If your tanks can't out-threat an "imp-bitch" affliction warlock then you have bigger issues. (...)
The only thing you're losing is avoiding soulshatter resists, which shouldn't really be a problem not to mention even if you cap your hit it'll still have a 1% chance to resist. So even with 6% hit it'll resist on 10/100 fights, out of the many many more fights where you actually need it. See warrior thread for more about threat capping.
There are several fights -- Void Reaver in particular -- which occasionally halve main tank threat. Even with soulshatter and maxed hit, I find myself spending a lot of time examining the scenery. 10% extra chance to resist 40% of your damage (i.e., a 4% drop in hits and ISB proc chances) is probably not as good as going for 7% hit and gemming the rest for damage, for personal dps, but the randomness of having 11% chance to get resisted on threat cap fights and where you've accidentally pulled aggro is a bit much.

Remember, there's damage meters, and there's dead bosses. You want to maximize the latter.
#1298SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Eph
Originally Posted by Indaril View Post
  • Zhar'doom is worse then the main/off-hand combination...according to leulier's table, its about 15 dps lower. In that calculation, i wasn't even considering losing 36 hit.
  • Belt of Blasting is 5dps worse then Anetheron's Noose as well.
  • Considering I'm already at the hit-cap, ring of captured storms is 10 dps lower then Ring of Ancient Knowledge...Mana Attuned Band is only usefull as well when you need hit else its almost 10 dps lower then RoAK
  • Illidari Council Cloak would in fact be better, I'm gonna compensate for the hit using veiled pyrestones to add to the 2 blue gems in shoulder and feet(changed)
  • The gem in the head is my bad, as well as I forgot about the 2 blues for the CSD. (changed)

Wanted to get 202 hit simply because I didn't want to really rely on a shaman in my group.

So the link is updated, any more feedback?

70 Human Warlock
Gotta be careful with comparing say [Belt of Blasting] and [Anetheron's Noose] without trying other gear changes at the same time. Try all combinations of neck/belt/back and see which comes out on top. It'll be a minor dps difference, but if you are going for the best you'll want it to be the best.
#1299SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wraithscythe
Hey I'm wondering if there is anything I can change in my gear and spec to improve my raid dps. Any suggestions would be helpful.

Talented Crit chance - 23.99% is this to much for the raid Affliction warlock?
203 hit rating this is maxed.
1181 shadow damage with just Fel Armor on. Guessing this should be alot higher.

Armory Link
#1300SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Wraithscythe View Post
Hey I'm wondering if there is anything I can change in my gear and spec to improve my raid dps. Any suggestions would be helpful.

Talented Crit chance - 23.99% is this to much for the raid Affliction warlock?
203 hit rating this is maxed.
1181 shadow damage with just Fel Armor on. Guessing this should be alot higher.

Armory Link
Spec 0/21/40.
Replace neckpiece with Rittsyn's, ZJ neck, or Kael neck.
Make a Belt of Blasting.
Replace t5 gloves with badge gloves.
#1301SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Originally Posted by Bogeywoman View Post
There are several fights -- Void Reaver in particular -- which occasionally halve main tank threat. Even with soulshatter and maxed hit, I find myself spending a lot of time examining the scenery. 10% extra chance to resist 40% of your damage (i.e., a 4% drop in hits and ISB proc chances) is probably not as good as going for 7% hit and gemming the rest for damage, for personal dps, but the randomness of having 11% chance to get resisted on threat cap fights and where you've accidentally pulled aggro is a bit much.

Remember, there's damage meters, and there's dead bosses. You want to maximize the latter.
I agree that on void reaver hit for soulshatter would be your top priority. But considering that's probably 1 of the easiest 25-man fights I wouldn't base my gear on that. If you really want you could swap gear for that fight only but I wouldn't gimp myself on most other fights where soulshatter isn't needed.
#1302SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Silverstorm
Originally Posted by Valgasha View Post
Apologies if this has been asked before, a search of the thread produced nothing -

I am looking for some further commentary / verification of the first post's claim that Affliction is better off with 76 spell hit and 5/5 Suppression, gemming for +damage, than gemming for hit cap. I've recently been switched from 0/21/40 to the Affliction utility Warlock; I am still gemmed with a good number of +8s for the hitcap. I'm wondering if it's worth it to re-gem. Price is no object, just whether +9 spell damage gems are worth more, point-for-point, than +8 spell hit gems.
I personally can't imagine having 5/5 Suppression in a raiding build for a guild that's cleared Black Temple. The gear available to you at that point pretty much covers your +hit. At that level of +dmg, Immolate is questionable whether or not you cast it (and with 5/5 Suppression, and 76 hit, I wouldn't). Without Immolate, 50% of your damage is likely Shadowbolt, so you drop 10% hit on those shadowbolts (5% of your damage) to pick up a little more +dmg. I don't know how much more +dmg you'd need to cover that gap of 50-60 DPS, but I'm sure someone here can figure it out. According to the first post, it's somewhat less than 126 (202-76). Even if you get it, why do that? You'd do the same DPS but lose out on soulshatter resists which effectively lowers your DPS anyway.

Given your current gear (as of now in Armory), you're over the hit cap by 14. I would at least change all those +8 hit gems to the +4 hit/+5 dmg versions. That would drop 20 hit, and put you just under. With the T5 robe you have 3 yellow sockets for more +4 hit/+5 dmg gems which probably opens up some of the other sockets for +9 dmg to meet socket bonuses where possible. They aren't all good, but if your gems let you meet them with good stats, why not?
#1303SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wraithscythe
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
Spec 0/21/40.
Replace neckpiece with Rittsyn's, ZJ neck, or Kael neck.
Make a Belt of Blasting.
Replace t5 gloves with badge gloves.
I would go Destruction but no other warlock in the raid will go Affliction. Is it that raid viable? Malediction is nice because we carry on average 2 Shadow priests and 4 Warlocks sometimes 5 if the mages forget to come. About the Crit chance as a Aff Lock is it 20% gear or 20% talented base chance? Right now I sit at 18.99% crit just in gear without the 5% chance from the destruction tree. With it it puts me well over 20% so I'm basically wondering if I should drop some crit and stack on more +dmg.
#1304SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3gunit12
Enchants

I've searched all 53 pages of this thread and was unable to find my question, so here goes.

As a 0/21/40 Destruction Warlock, which weapon enchant should I use?
Soulfrost? or +40 Spell Damage?

While the soulfrost gives me an extra 12 shadow damage, obviously... I use immolate in my rotation, so which is greater:
+40 shadow, +40 fire
or
+52 shadow

Most of the time I am spamming SBs, but is the +12 going to increase my dps over the +40 fire to my immolate? 40 seems like quite a lot.
#1305SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3filthlord
Hey guys.. i notice you say partial resists are estimated to be 6 percent on bosses.

I have been recording partials for 4 warlocks dps on bosses in BT and Hyjal for about 4 months now.
It has been a very consistant 15 percent partial resist for around 3 percent dmg mitigation all locks all bosses
for many many fights. Curse of shadows always up. Any info on how someone figured 6 percent?
#1306SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stran
Originally Posted by gunit12 View Post
I've searched all 51 pages of this thread and was unable to find my question, so here goes.

As a 0/21/40 Destruction Warlock, which weapon enchant should I use?
Soulfrost? or +40 Spell Damage?

While the soulfrost gives me an extra 12 shadow damage, obviously... I use immolate in my rotation, so which is greater:
+40 shadow, +40 fire
or
+52 shadow

Most of the time I am spamming SBs, but is the +12 going to increase my dps over the +40 fire to my immolate? 40 seems like quite a lot.
Use the spreadsheet. The answer is heavily dependent on your current gear and rotation. In fact, Immolation usage in your rotation is also dependent on your gear so I would check that out too :P I gain 3.2 DPS from Immo, theoretically, but lose far more unless it's a heavy movement fight.
#1307SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nicarras
Yeah Stran is right on.

Once you reach a gear point (T6), Immolate is a decrease in DPS and RaidISB/DPS, so it isnt even worth to cast.

Quick answer for you. If you are going to use that weapon for a very long time, say it is the Leo sword or an S3 weapon, then I'd put Soulfrost on it.
#1308SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3gunit12
I'm not to T6 yet, is it the 4-piece bonus that makes immolate obsolete? I've been topping the meters on the Vashj fight using immolate so I think its working well for me atm... although the only 25 man drop I have is the Cowl of the Grand Engineer.
#1309SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3LockApologist
Originally Posted by gunit12 View Post
I'm not to T6 yet, is it the 4-piece bonus that makes immolate obsolete? I've been topping the meters on the Vashj fight using immolate so I think its working well for me atm... although the only 25 man drop I have is the Cowl of the Grand Engineer.

Vashj is not a DPS fight, and your DPS output is heavily dependent on what your job is, and your luck on charges, p2 jobs, and general p3 stuff. If I'm doing Elem, I have 100% DPS time, and I'm very hard to beat 2-3 shotting the elems. If I'm on striders, my dps is much lower as the threat cap isn't there, plus movement reduces dps time.

P3 you can get rooted OOR. P1 you can waste a good deal of time moving for static charge.

But, to your question, yes, t6 bonus is that good. But, even at t5 level, I find immo questionable unless movement is involved. Faster mana usage, and fewer debuffs to take advantage of.
#1310SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nicarras
Originally Posted by gunit12 View Post
I'm not to T6 yet, is it the 4-piece bonus that makes immolate obsolete? I've been topping the meters on the Vashj fight using immolate so I think its working well for me atm... although the only 25 man drop I have is the Cowl of the Grand Engineer.
Grab the spreadsheet, and check for yourself. Immolate dies very early in a T5 Dest Locks career, even with fire talents its just a bad use of a GCD. It prevents you from putting up another ISB, and it gives someone a chance to take down ISB, so it lowers RaidISB. And by T6 I mean just getting any T6 quality loot (like a point in time in your raiding career), not just the bonus when you are farming most of the content already.

Like they said above Vashj is not a DPS fight at all. Also, #1 DPS in your guild is great, but doesnt mean you cant be 2-4% better !

Keep up the good work but grab the spreadsheet and throw your data in there and play with the spell rotations, find the best one for your gear ATM.
#1311SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wraithscythe
What amount of crit does a Affliction lock need? I've heard 20% but is that non talented or talented.
#1312SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pentamorfi
Don't worry about crit. Get your spell hit capped, grab as much +damage as possible, and crit will come by itself through better gear.
#1313SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wraithscythe
I am hit capped and I'm in full T5 with some T6 pieces thrown in.

203 Hit rating
23.99% talented crit chance
1181 shadow damage with fel armor up
#1314SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Originally Posted by Pentamorfi View Post
Don't worry about crit. Get your spell hit capped, grab as much +damage as possible, and crit will come by itself through better gear.
Or just download lieuler's spreadsheet (www.lieuler.com also linked on the main post that you should've read) and see how good each stat is and know exactly how much dps an item is going to do for you/your raid given your stats and your raid composition.
#1315SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nicarras
Originally Posted by Wraithscythe View Post
What amount of crit does a Affliction lock need? I've heard 20% but is that non talented or talented.
Need for what?

If you mean just to be affliction, crit isnt something you stack. If you mean to switch to dest, then yes 20.
#1316SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Or just download lieuler's spreadsheet (www.lieuler.com also linked on the main post that you should've read) and see how good each stat is and know exactly how much dps an item is going to do for you/your raid given your stats and your raid composition.
Sometimes I wonder how short this thread would be if every poster asked himself if "Check the spreadsheet." would answer his question.
Originally Posted by Nicarras View Post
Need for what?

If you mean just to be affliction, crit isnt something you stack. If you mean to switch to dest, then yes 20.
I realize once upon a time someone said the number 20 to this issue, but there is no magic crit percent you need to make destro work for you. If somehow you do have some math that backs up this claim, I'd love to see it, but otherwise arbitrary lines in the sand don't affect locks.

I imagine early on someone thought that 20% from gear and 5% from talents gives ISB a near perfect uptime and the number has managed to survive to now... but really every stat plays a factor continuously (aside from hit) along all gear levels. The spreadsheet can be manipulated to show you almost every scenario and you can see for yourself what gear is best and when respeccing is likely to increase/lower your damage output. Also you might just try doing an extra hour of farming and respec for a night/week! See if you like the build more or if your needle moves at all.
#1317SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ammanas
Originally Posted by Wraithscythe View Post
I am hit capped and I'm in full T5 with some T6 pieces thrown in.

203 Hit rating
23.99% talented crit chance
1181 shadow damage with fel armor up
You have a very high crit rate for affliction, especially relative to your gear level (mostly T5). You need to work on your shadow damage, lose the crit gems. You want to gem for pure +damage (assuming hit capped), the crit will come with gear - and as affliction you don't prioritize crit at all. With your gear you would up your DPS pretty substantially by going 21/40, and since you have the 4 piece T5 and lots of crit 40/0/21 might also be worth running some numbers on.

Even as 21/40, shadow damage is still the best way to increase your DPS (again assuming you stay hit capped) so you should definitely do some re-gemming.
#1318SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
genchaos55
Your opinions and thoughts please.

First let me say that this is an extremely helpful site and is much appreciated.
I have been trying to find more information about the 40/0/21 spec.
char:
The World of Warcraft Armory
spec : WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warlock -> Talent Calculator
i realize it is a bit of an odd spec in that it has improved dots as well as high crit SB's. the idea was to have at least one lock with this spec to keep ISB up at all times, amongst other advantages. I tend to out dps most of the raid and am in at least the top 5 fairly consistently. This is especially true for long fights and fights with no aggro table, IE alar. this is even with my crappy gear.
basically, i am wondering what you guys think about this build and if there is a better direction to go gear wise or a better suited build. i was going for a build that was a nice mix of good quick dmg as well as good duration fighting. the only thing that has been a slight challenge is the high aggro from crit'ing every 4th SB. Thus far it has not been much of a problem. also, 6k+ SB crits are pretty cool and not super uncommon in raids. lastly, should i bother upping my +hit, or is it about right with the suppression? i think i'm only a few off, i wasn't sure if it was worth replacing a socketor something.
any information y'all could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Last edited by genchaos55 : 02/05/08 at 7:43 PM.
#1319SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
If you actually bother to look at the spreadsheet you'll easily see shadow embrace+ruin specs are not viable until very high gear levels (generally 4/5 T6 and/or gear with similar stats). If you want to be an imp/SE-bitch you should be full affliction (43/0/17 with last point either in CoEx, improved imp or 35% pushback protection).

Since destruction scales better than affliction with every stat in the game (as in, the dps increase for 1 spell dmg, 1 crit rating, 1 hit rating and 1 spell haste rating are all bigger for destruction than affliction) the crit chance you "need" for destruction to outdps affliction will depend on your other stats - the more spell damage/hit/haste you have the less crit is required to make destruction beat affliction. Then again I've yet to see anyone who actually bothered to pick up reasonable gear for both specs that would do more DPS as affliction than destruction.
#1320SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Arelenda
Originally Posted by filthlord View Post
Hey guys.. i notice you say partial resists are estimated to be 6 percent on bosses.

I have been recording partials for 4 warlocks dps on bosses in BT and Hyjal for about 4 months now.
It has been a very consistant 15 percent partial resist for around 3 percent dmg mitigation all locks all bosses
for many many fights. Curse of shadows always up. Any info on how someone figured 6 percent?
15% seems a lot. I'll do some quick checks.

Update: 15% for around 3% seems a fair enough estimate. Compendium updated. Additional information welcome.

Last edited by Arelenda : 02/05/08 at 8:12 PM.
#1321SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Note that the chnace for partial resist is rather noticeable, but at the end since it only resists 25% of the damage most of the times it actually resists, the overall damage reduction seems to end up as ~5%.
#1322SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nicarras
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
Sometimes I wonder how short this thread would be if every poster asked himself if "Check the spreadsheet." would answer his question.

I realize once upon a time someone said the number 20 to this issue, but there is no magic crit percent you need to make destro work for you. If somehow you do have some math that backs up this claim, I'd love to see it, but otherwise arbitrary lines in the sand don't affect locks.

I imagine early on someone thought that 20% from gear and 5% from talents gives ISB a near perfect uptime and the number has managed to survive to now... but really every stat plays a factor continuously (aside from hit) along all gear levels. The spreadsheet can be manipulated to show you almost every scenario and you can see for yourself what gear is best and when respeccing is likely to increase/lower your damage output. Also you might just try doing an extra hour of farming and respec for a night/week! See if you like the build more or if your needle moves at all.
I think that 20 from gear is an easy number for aff locks to hit coming out of aff gear to make the switch. It is what I shot for when I switched and I didnt see a decrease in my dmg output from when I was aff. No it's late and that's not a math answer, but real raiding experience is better than mathcraft anyway.
#1323SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nerull
Sorry to bring this back up again : Spellhaste for affliction.

I have checked latest leulier with the implementation of spellhaste for 2.4 patch.
It seems that that spellhaste at my level roughly equals 1 spelldamage when Im raidbuffed, the value of spelldamage varies from 1,02 per point to 1,09. Considering that spellhaste is probably cheaper budgetted, it seems like the way to go ?

Example : Bracers of nimble thought suddenly becomes truly awesome compared to any other bracer available in slot at the moment.

My raidbuffed stats : 1550 shadowdamage ( with 10 stacks of darkmoonfaire up ) , 22% crit ( although Im going to lose some in favor of haste ofc ).

I intend to go 4 piece tier 6 , Zuljin neck ( maybe not that much better compared to RoS neck, but I like items with stats over statless items as warlock ) , bracers of nimble thought, mojo boots from ZA seems like a very nice upgrade from FSW boots considering this. Also the ring of trash from BT with spellhaste seems unrivaled compared to any other ring ?

Anyone else played with the leulier sheet with the haste changes for affliction dps ? Anyone else have any other item that seems to become very very powerfull under the assumption of 1 haste equals 1 spelldamage ? Seems not worth breaking 4 piece tier 6 for though.
#1324SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Kalle
Originally Posted by filthlord View Post
Hey guys.. i notice you say partial resists are estimated to be 6 percent on bosses.

I have been recording partials for 4 warlocks dps on bosses in BT and Hyjal for about 4 months now.
It has been a very consistant 15 percent partial resist for around 3 percent dmg mitigation all locks all bosses
for many many fights. Curse of shadows always up. Any info on how someone figured 6 percent?
I think this post might be what you're looking for. However, it's 6% resisted damage and not 6% of your spells which do less than full damage.

Data from BT will be skewed because of the chromatic resistance aura from the illidari council's paladin.

EDIT: I don't know how you recorded your values, but if you used WWS, you might find this post interesting.

Last edited by Kalle : 02/06/08 at 5:29 AM.
#1325SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bogeywoman
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
I agree that on void reaver hit for soulshatter would be your top priority. But considering that's probably 1 of the easiest 25-man fights I wouldn't base my gear on that. If you really want you could swap gear for that fight only but I wouldn't gimp myself on most other fights where soulshatter isn't needed.
Void Reaver's just one example. If I had 6g for every time soulshatter saved my repair costs when a mob gets loose in the Hyjal trash wave aoe pulls, then I...wait, I do have 6g for every time that happens, because I'm hit capped.
#1326SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Originally Posted by Bogeywoman View Post
Void Reaver's just one example. If I had 6g for every time soulshatter saved my repair costs when a mob gets loose in the Hyjal trash wave aoe pulls, then I...wait, I do have 6g for every time that happens, because I'm hit capped.
Those mobs are lvl72 at the highest, though, which means you'll be hit capped with 5% hit from gear. Considering even affliction warlocks should have minimum 6% for bosses (becuase under that hit is actually the best stat to get as your affliction spells also become uncapped), and how trivial it is to have such a low minimum required +hit, I wouldn't get 16% hit just to soulshatter on trash - it simply provides 0 benefit.
#1327SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Nicarras View Post
I think that 20 from gear is an easy number for aff locks to hit coming out of aff gear to make the switch. It is what I shot for when I switched and I didnt see a decrease in my dmg output from when I was aff. No it's late and that's not a math answer, but real raiding experience is better than mathcraft anyway.
I'm not saying 20% from gear is hard to get. I'm also not saying you saw a DPS decrease if you used that value "to shoot for" before you switched. What I'm saying is that there is nothing behind the arbitrary "minimum stats" for destro. Wear the best gear you can based on your spec, arbitrary minimums with no backing don't matter. If you're curious about switching from affliction to destro, check your gear in the spreaedsheet and respec to see how it pans out in practice.
#1328SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Does anyone have any further insight into crit % vs lvl 73 mobs, and how it relates to what you see in the character screen?
#1329SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bogeywoman
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Those mobs are lvl72 at the highest, though, which means you'll be hit capped with 5% hit from gear. Considering even affliction warlocks should have minimum 6% for bosses (becuase under that hit is actually the best stat to get as your affliction spells also become uncapped), and how trivial it is to have such a low minimum required +hit, I wouldn't get 16% hit just to soulshatter on trash - it simply provides 0 benefit.
Hmm, good point, I had forgotten that they were lower level. That does raise the possibility of an affliction lock going strong on damage. Having had the rest of my arguments shot down from now, let me end with "but the amount of damage you'll get and the gemming you have to do to get there is probably not cost effective if you ever intend on going to any other spec at any time."
#1330SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Spline
Originally Posted by Krazen
Does anyone have any further insight into crit % vs lvl 73 mobs, and how it relates to what you see in the character screen?
Not unless someone volunteers thousands of play-hours for testing. I'm no statistician, so I've got no idea exactly how many hours are needed to get useful results.

Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
We still don't have a quantitative analysis of it. We know that your crit chance lowers, but we don't know the exactly mechanism behind it. There are at least three possibilities: subtractive penalty (-5%), multaplicative penalty (your crit rate goes down 1/10), and a revaluing of crit rating (and possibly int->crit as well) by the level 73 conversions instead of level 70. Note that the last two may actually resolve to be the same, minus an additive constant. No testing has been done, and the testing required to get a quantitative analysis would be prohibitively enourmous, compared to the qualitative testing to show that something was happening.
#1331SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Humanwarlock
Should a destruction specced warlock be drinking mana potions or destruction potions for max dps? I think I heard somewhere that the time gained from not having to lifetap as often when chainchugging mana pots increases dps more than chainchugging destro pots would.
#1332SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Humanwarlock View Post
Should a destruction specced warlock be drinking mana potions or destruction potions for max dps? I think I heard somewhere that the time gained from not having to lifetap as often when chainchugging mana pots increases dps more than chainchugging destro pots would.
100 mp5 versus 0.25% crit and 15 spell power on the spreadsheet.

In general: if you need to lifetap when you could have been dealing damage, mana pots will win. You might be able to make a destro-pot win if you stacked it on top of heroism and skull of gul'dan, though.
#1333SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Also any fight with movement will allow you to lifetap with 0 dps loss, making destro potions better if you move often enough. Just carry both mana and destruction potions and use whichever suits the fight better. But yeah according to the spreadsheet if you're just standing and nuking mana pots win.
#1334SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Moghedian
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
100 mp5 versus 0.25% crit and 15 spell power on the spreadsheet.

In general: if you need to lifetap when you could have been dealing damage, mana pots will win. You might be able to make a destro-pot win if you stacked it on top of heroism and skull of gul'dan, though.
Well, even if its not higher dps I use gul'dan + desto pot + clicky trinket for big huge pew pew numbers. min/maxing the fun quotient is worth doing too
#1335SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morwen
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
100 mp5 versus 0.25% crit and 15 spell power on the spreadsheet.

In general: if you need to lifetap when you could have been dealing damage, mana pots will win. You might be able to make a destro-pot win if you stacked it on top of heroism and skull of gul'dan, though.
As an extension, you 'waste' the mana pot if you end the fight with extra mana. The mana pot will win if it actually does save you that lifetap in practice (especially for vulnerability phases). If at the end of a nuke phase you still have 3k mana left over then it turns out you didn't get any savings from the mana pot at all.

Mana pots would also generate some extra threat, something to consider if you are closely riding the line.
#1336SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Trickykid
Originally Posted by Morwen View Post
As an extension, you 'waste' the mana pot if you end the fight with extra mana. The mana pot will win if it actually does save you that lifetap in practice (especially for vulnerability phases). If at the end of a nuke phase you still have 3k mana left over then it turns out you didn't get any savings from the mana pot at all.

Mana pots would also generate some extra threat, something to consider if you are closely riding the line.
For destro, a mana pot not only saves you the GCD but also the life needed to lifetap... so in a way it's also preventing you from losing 2400 HP which can be nice when you're low on life and can't afford to dip into raid-damage 1shot range. On that note, super rejuv pots give only 200 less mana but bring more HP than a super healing pot.

Last edited by Trickykid : 02/06/08 at 8:47 PM. Reason: Removed incorrect assumption.
#1337SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
For destro, a mana pot not only saves you the GCD but also the life needed to lifetap... so in a way it's also preventing you from losing 2400 HP which can be nice when you're low on life and can't afford to dip into raid-damage 1shot range. On that note, super rejuv pots give only 200 less mana but bring more HP than a super healing pot.

Also to the point about threat... any threat you might have gained from a mana pot you would be getting from LTing anyway, no?
LTing doesn't generate threat.
#1338SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyth
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
On that note, super rejuv pots give only 200 less mana but bring more HP than a super healing pot.
I can't recommend super rejuv pots enough, particularly for the T6 fights.

Just don't forget what other mana users learned long ago: use your pot cooldown early so that it's up again sooner in the fight.
#1339SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dakalro
With the amount of raid healing done on most bosses these days I'd much rather use mana pots, but again we rarely have less than 7 healers out of which 2 resto sham, 1-2 resto druids, 2-4 CoH priests (one specced CoH when someone suggested they try then all of them followed ... never seen spi in a 25 man ever since ), fill up with palas.

But unless you're in a double spriest group destro pots won't come close to mana pots. For healing there's 3xHealthstone, and ~1700 heal death coil and soul leech which can give some very nice healing when lucky (close to 4k a pop max).
#1340SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Blackranger
Greetings,

I know these patch-notes are not confirmed yet, but I thought it'd be still interesting to see the numbers for these changes.
WARLOCK
- Improved Shadow Bolt now only works for the warlock who casted the bolt.
- ISB reduced to 15% at max rank
I'm a terrible theory-crafter, but I've been hearing a lot of moaning and whining going on about how big of a nerf this would be to warlocks. But actually, I'm getting the feeling this wouldn't even be a nerf, maybe even a slight buff. I assume of course, that because imp SB only works for the warlock who casted it, shadowpriests and other warlocks will not be able to eat up the charges anymore. Depending on the amount of shadowpriests (and probably affliction locks with less crit than you have) would this not mean it would even out the 5% damage loss from the talent?

This seems more like a shadowpriest nerf than a lock nerf to me.

Is there anyone with enough knowledge of math to do the numbers for this?
#1341SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Blackranger View Post
Greetings,

I know these patch-notes are not confirmed yet, but I thought it'd be still interesting to see the numbers for these changes.


I'm a terrible theory-crafter, but I've been hearing a lot of moaning and whining going on about how big of a nerf this would be to warlocks. But actually, I'm getting the feeling this wouldn't even be a nerf, maybe even a slight buff. I assume of course, that because imp SB only works for the warlock who casted it, shadowpriests and other warlocks will not be able to eat up the charges anymore. Depending on the amount of shadowpriests (and probably affliction locks with less crit than you have) would this not mean it would even out the 5% damage loss from the talent?

This seems more like a shadowpriest nerf than a lock nerf to me.

Is there anyone with enough knowledge of math to do the numbers for this?
This would be a horrible nerf. Our main advantage over other classes is ISB and the incredible bonus it gives to all shadow users. Do remember that ISB affects all shadow damage. It buffs all shadow dots as well, without consuming charges. When you crit, you're boosting all SW:Pains, CoAs, UAs, Corruptions and SLs ticking on the target for the duration of the ISB debuff.

If this were to happen, affliction locks and shadow priests would take a very hard hit (which I estimate at 5% and 7%, respectively), destro locks will probably take a somewhat lower hit in personal damage (estimated at 3%), and raid damage would suffer. It is nowhere near a buff to any class or spec involved, unless you're obsessed by your own personal damage to the point where you would deliberately lower other people's dps to make sure you win on the meter.

It is definitely not a good idea. If anything needs nerfing, it's not shadow priest or affliction dps.

Disclaimer: these are rough estimates, based on ISB data from our last raid. Given how finicky ISB is, they might be off a bit. But I'm 100% sure about my conclusion.

Last edited by Arelenda : 02/07/08 at 8:27 AM.
#1342SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Blackranger
That's why I said: This seems more like a shadowpriest nerf than a lock nerf to me.

I'm not saying it's a good thing, I just wanted to know how much it's an actual destro lock nerf.
#1343SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dakalro
Might be 0, might even be a slight buff (well, if you compare to current without a spriest in group, ~1%), might be a slight nerf (~1%). But you will see wild variations in dps due to crit streaks added to current crit% variations. I mean in theory you'd have it at 100% uptime anytime you go over 25% crit if crits were evenly spread and you always got exact crit rates .

Unless you didn't use spriests/affli locks this won't be a nerf. Life Tap would, so would regen loss from spriests, so would uptime loss for affli. But hey, fire was already close to shadow, a nice buff to coefficient and we'll all turn from skull missile shooting monkeys to ground burning fire shooting ones . Though they better buff spriests/affliction if they do this.

Fortunately if these changes do show up on PTR at some point there will be plenty of people and numbers to show their effects as possibly Sunwell could even be farmed on PTR by the time it goes live. And there's always Rage right there to do some dps testing so until some official explanations show up, no need to worry.
#1344SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pintofbrew
No, you will not have 100% uptime with 25% crit, particularly in theory. Casting four spells at 25% crit does not mean you have 4*25=100% chance to refresh your ISB.

The chance you have to refresh it is in fact 1-(0.75^3)=69.4%. Even with 99% crit you wouldn't have a guaranteed refresh.

I'm curious how while you gentlemen noticed "ISB narf" none of you noticed in the same alleged notes "Incinerate coef. incerased". Bearing in mind 0.21.40 imp-saccing benefits from delicious talents like Emberstorm, and imp. Scorch combined with Misery is 20% which is signifficantly ahead than Shadow Weaving+Misery at 15%.

We all know how kinky percentile increments are... I can't wait till we start considering maledicted CoE as a DPS optimizer.
#1345SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
dakalro
You said:

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew View Post
No, you will not have 100% uptime with 25% crit, particularly in theory. Casting four spells at 25% crit does not mean you have 4*25=100% chance to refresh your ISB.

The chance you have to refresh it is in fact 1-(0.75^3)=69.4%. Even with 99% crit you wouldn't have a guaranteed refresh.
I said:
I mean in theory you'd have it at 100% uptime anytime you go over 25% crit if crits were evenly spread and you always got exact crit rates.

You said:
Originally Posted by Pintofbrew View Post
I'm curious how while you gentlemen noticed "ISB narf" none of you noticed in the same alleged notes "Incinerate coef. incerased". Bearing in mind 0.21.40 imp-saccing benefits from delicious talents like Emberstorm, and imp. Scorch combined with Misery is 20% which is signifficantly ahead than Shadow Weaving+Misery at 15%.

We all know how kinky percentile increments are... I can't wait till we start considering maledicted CoE as a DPS optimizer.
I said:
But hey, fire was already close to shadow, a nice buff to coefficient and we'll all turn from skull missile shooting monkeys to ground burning fire shooting ones.

New stuff:
And at this point Fire, even before ISB is accounted for is about 4% behind shadow. Removing ISB raid buff certainly makes fire not only viable but with a coefficient increase of at least 5-10% even better (it's what, 61-62 mana cheaper than SB with Cataclysm on?). Inci starts at 85%, SB at 102% with S&F ... big difference here. From crappy calc it would seem they need to bring Inci from 71% base to 80% to be slightly under SB at scaling, not damage/cast but that's prolly offset by the mana cost.
It's been a long time since we last had an affliction warlock in raid, can't even remember, but I always give mages CoE, if only just to delay my "always at the start of fights 9k-10k crit streaks that always force me to soulshatter therefore doing nothing for a large part of the fight". Plus they whine, big time, not a big as spriests for locks to get more crit though .

Visit to the opthamologist required or just skipping what you don't want to read? :P

Last edited by dakalro : 02/07/08 at 10:41 AM.
#1346SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pentamorfi
Originally Posted by Pintofbrew View Post
I'm curious how while you gentlemen noticed "ISB narf" none of you noticed in the same alleged notes "Incinerate coef. incerased". Bearing in mind 0.21.40 imp-saccing benefits from delicious talents like Emberstorm, and imp. Scorch combined with Misery is 20% which is signifficantly ahead than Shadow Weaving+Misery at 15%.

We all know how kinky percentile increments are... I can't wait till we start considering maledicted CoE as a DPS optimizer.
I did notice this. Generally, the difference between shadow and fire destro was ISB uptime (plus bigger mana returns by shadowpriests) . We don't have an idea of how much the Incinerate coefficient will be increased, but I'm going to assume Blizzard wants to bring the two specs more in line with each other. If this turns out to be true, you'll essentially be doing the same damage both as fire and destro, only without the aggro spikes of ISB-fueled mega crits. It just seems like a backwards way of achieving this, since affliction locks and shadow priests hardly need a DPS nerf.
#1347SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Krazen
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
100 mp5 versus 0.25% crit and 15 spell power on the spreadsheet.

In general: if you need to lifetap when you could have been dealing damage, mana pots will win. You might be able to make a destro-pot win if you stacked it on top of heroism and skull of gul'dan, though.
Plugging these values in the spreadsheet shows that the mana pots are more than twice as good (about 13.51 for the destro pot and 28.97 for the manas).

I can only conclude that destro pots can never be better if you ever lifetap when you could nuke otherwise; Heroism and Skull don't double your damage.

Last edited by Krazen : 02/07/08 at 12:04 PM.
#1348SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stran
Originally Posted by Pentamorfi View Post
I did notice this. Generally, the difference between shadow and fire destro was ISB uptime (plus bigger mana returns by shadowpriests) . We don't have an idea of how much the Incinerate coefficient will be increased, but I'm going to assume Blizzard wants to bring the two specs more in line with each other. If this turns out to be true, you'll essentially be doing the same damage both as fire and destro, only without the aggro spikes of ISB-fueled mega crits. It just seems like a backwards way of achieving this, since affliction locks and shadow priests hardly need a DPS nerf.
Smaller crits will also help out on RoS. And Doom + ROS = bad.
#1349SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morwen
Originally Posted by dakalro View Post
I mean in theory you'd have it at 100% uptime anytime you go over 25% crit if crits were evenly spread and you always got exact crit rates.

...

It's been a long time since we last had an affliction warlock in raid, can't even remember, but I always give mages CoE, if only just to delay my "always at the start of fights 9k-10k crit streaks that always force me to soulshatter therefore doing nothing for a large part of the fight". Plus they whine, big time, not a big as spriests for locks to get more crit though .
1. I think on this board by 'in theory' we tend to mean 'mathematically expected over the long term', rather than the 'Communism works in theory' usage.

2. Going off on a tangent, if you are forced to do nothing for some period of time post-soulshatter then the optimal play would have been to wait longer to soulshatter and move the do-nothing period towards the start of the fight.
#1350SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Doing some quick numbers with reasonable raids and ~25-30% crit warlock, the personal DPS gained by ISB will be pretty damn close to what it is now. You'll have more personal ISB time but gain less damage from it, and if you do the math you'll see that your dps doesn't really change with this patch change.

So what does it really do?

Well first thing it makes modeling so much easier ISB uptime will be 1-(1-crit)^4 for spamming shadowbolts continuously (slightly less if you have to move when ISB charges are up, and say, only get 3 shadowbolts during those 12 seconds).

Shadow priests will be losing massive DPS with such a change. In my normal raid ISB should be up 50-60% of the time which would mean a 10-12% DPS loss to shadow priests.

For affliction warlocks' personal dps it'll really depend on their personal crit. Since they often have 12 second intervals where less than 4 shadowbolts are being cast, yet damage is still being dealt via DoTs, calculating ISB uptime becomes a bit complicated, and the DPS increase from it even more complicated. No longer should you be able to make the approximation of "dps increase = uptime * 0.2" although it might still be reasonable close - it needs more looking into.

This does give a side-effect buff to affliction as destruction warlocks no longer bring any increase to raid dps over affliction aside from their personal dps, while affliction brings malediction. Right now the ISB increase from going from aff to destro actually increases raid dps a bit more than malediction would, making affliction pretty much a purely "imp+SE bitch". So while I'm not sure how the personal dps of affliction warlocks will change with this (although I am sure that wether it's an increase or decrease depends on the affliction warlock's crit chance), affliction warlocks will at least increase the DPS of other shadow users better than destruction warlocks would.

Overall I would expect raid dps to go down if such a change would be implemented, even before taking into account the secondary effect the lower regen shadow priests would have.
#1351SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 SSJones
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post

This does give a side-effect buff to affliction as destruction warlocks no longer bring any increase to raid dps over affliction aside from their personal dps, while affliction brings malediction. Right now the ISB increase from going from aff to destro actually increases raid dps a bit more than malediction would, making affliction pretty much a purely "imp+SE bitch". So while I'm not sure how the personal dps of affliction warlocks will change with this (although I am sure that wether it's an increase or decrease depends on the affliction warlock's crit chance), affliction warlocks will at least increase the DPS of other shadow users better than destruction warlocks would.
Assuming Shadow Destruction DPS doesn't decrease, there would still be very little reason to prioritize Malediction in a raid. Even if you have 10,000 shadow/arcane raid DPS, the 2.7% more you'd get from Malediction instead of normal CoS is... 270 DPS, correct? Meaning if your affliction warlock does greater than 270 DPS more when specced Destruction, he's actually bringing raid DPS DOWN by speccing into malediction instead. Nothing about this possible change affects that calculation if I understand it correctly.

The extra mana returns returns from an extra 2.7% shadow damage is also probably minimal. An extra 37.8 DPS to your shadow priest if they are running 1400 DPS. So an extra 9.45 MP5 for their group.

I believe that's accurate?

Edit: Forgot to mention.. I believe 10,000 shadow/arcane DPS as a raid is a really high number, but that is guesswork.
#1352SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Limeball
The Shadow Bolt Debuff

It's very important to keep the Improved Shadow Bolt Debuff (ISB) up as much as possible, since it provides 20% extra shadow damage to the entire raid while it is active. (including dots - this is a common misconception). Destruction warlocks consequently put a higher value on crit rating than other builds do, since it helps with ISB uptime..

Is that tru? I only noticed me getting the buff in raids
#1353SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Limeball View Post
It's very important to keep the Improved Shadow Bolt Debuff (ISB) up as much as possible, since it provides 20% extra shadow damage to the entire raid while it is active. (including dots - this is a common misconception). Destruction warlocks consequently put a higher value on crit rating than other builds do, since it helps with ISB uptime..

Is that tru? I only noticed me getting the buff in raids
It's a debuff, not a buff. And yes, it is true.
#1354SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Originally Posted by SSJones View Post
Assuming Shadow Destruction DPS doesn't decrease, there would still be very little reason to prioritize Malediction in a raid. Even if you have 10,000 shadow/arcane raid DPS, the 2.7% more you'd get from Malediction instead of normal CoS is... 270 DPS, correct? Meaning if your affliction warlock does greater than 270 DPS more when specced Destruction, he's actually bringing raid DPS DOWN by speccing into malediction instead. Nothing about this possible change affects that calculation if I understand it correctly.

The extra mana returns returns from an extra 2.7% shadow damage is also probably minimal. An extra 37.8 DPS to your shadow priest if they are running 1400 DPS. So an extra 9.45 MP5 for their group.

I believe that's accurate?

Edit: Forgot to mention.. I believe 10,000 shadow/arcane DPS as a raid is a really high number, but that is guesswork.
The correctness of what you're saying strictly depends on the DPS difference of affliction and destruction after you apply the change, which can vary depending on gear level and the effects of the changes on affliction personal dps (either increase or decrease his dps depending on his crit chance).
The extra regen gives my baseline ~1550 dps destruction warlock ~3 more dps. Granted it's a secondary effect and isn't big but it's there and should be taken into account if your affliciton dps + malediction dps are close under the destruction dps.
Note that the DPS difference I get currently between my affliction setup and destruction setup on lieuler is ~50 dps with equal group buffs, and lose additional ~150dps by moving to the tank group. However if you're considering switching your aff lock to destro assuming the aff lock is in the tank group is flawed - as if you want an imp in the tank group you want an affliction warlock regardless of his dps (unless he can't even beat a destro lock running an imp in the tank group... which realistically won't ever happen as far as I know). And if you want imp you probably want shadow embrace even more (as it's actually more useful than imp more often than not, so if you find imp important you definitely find shadow embrace important).

At the end such a change, just like I said, would make destruction warlocks add 0 raid dps over affliction while affliction warlocks will add raid dps, so there will be a breakpoint where affliction will add more raid dps than destruction. Where that breakpoint is depends on a lot of things, including how the change would affect the affliction warlock's personal dps.
#1355SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Kyth
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Note that the DPS difference I get currently between my affliction setup and destruction setup on lieuler is ~50 dps with equal group buffs, and lose additional ~150dps by moving to the tank group.
At what gear level?

(According to your guild forums your guild has only just downed Vashj, and according to your info here your Paladin is your main, so I'm suspecting your lock is in the gear where affliction is far far stronger than the crit-based T5/T6 gear that people are usually talking about.)
#1356SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Lock is at the gear that gives ~1500dps on lieuler's, basically ~t5 level, so yeah it's not as big of a dps drop as the people in full T6 that have everything in the game, but the bottom line is there is a breakpoint somewhere in between wher the personal dps starts to beat malediction. Before that there was no breakpoint - if your gear didn't totally suck your ISB contribution would beat the malediction contribution to the raid, and thus affliction would always drop raid dps on top of the personal dps. If this change is to happen, it makes affliction actually have a realistic point where it's worth having, while currently the only point where affliction is worth having is at a gear level of someone who probably doesn't even know how to cast DoTs properly.
#1357SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Fafhrd
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
If this change is to happen, it makes affliction actually have a realistic point where it's worth having, while currently the only point where affliction is worth having is at a gear level of someone who probably doesn't even know how to cast DoTs properly.
Affliction not worth having? In my opinion Malediction is just a bonus your Affliction Warlock gives the raid, after contributing progression-essential talents like Shadow Embrace and Imp, so Malediction vs Destro is an academic discussion. If you don't need SE/Imp, then you have TBC on farm anyway.
#1358SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
I never said not worth having, I said won't increase raid DPS. There's a difference.
#1359SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vondem
I'm curious to see how exactly a destro warlock is to socket their gear. Right now I've got t6 robe/gloves/helm and around 30% destro crit, fully hit capped, with ~1300 shadow damage.
I'm eventually getting t6 shoulders for 4 piece, Tempest of Chaos (ONCE IT FINALLY DROPS =\), leggings of channeled elements, and the slippers of the seacaller (my boots are the most terrible boots out there with random heroic gems, it is only temporary)
With those pieces I'll be at around 32% destro crit with over 1400 shadow damage while staying hit capped.

I have looked up many warlocks in hope to get an answer on how to socket my gear, +12 spell damage gems vs +5 crit 6 damage gems.

Right now I have a majority of my gear socketed with +12 spell damage gems, as I see many end-game destro locks with those gems in almost every socket in their gear. The way I looked at it was if I socketed with 5 crit 6 damage gems, i would gain around 1.4 to about 2% crit over losing a bit of spell damage, but as this spec on a 25 man raid boss with shadow priests, a malediction lock with CoS, t6 4 piece, Imp shadow bolt, as well as the talents in shadow and flame/demo sac, your spell damage scales a lot. (I'm not sure how they work, but if they're additive, it will be around 89% extra shadow bolt damage)
If the talents/debuffs scale like this, that would mean that a 12 spell damage gem = virtually 22.68 spell damage and a 5 crit (.23%) 6 spell damage gem = virtually 5 crit rating (.23%) and 11.34 spell damage

I was wondering if anyone can clear this up for me. Thank you guys.
#1360SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
galzohar
Originally Posted by Vondem View Post
I was wondering if anyone can clear this up for me. Thank you guys.
http://www.leulier.com/ should have all the answers. Overall with any realistic raid 12 damage gems win on total raid dps, although not by a huge margin, as 1 crit rating is more or less equal to 1 spell dmg, even slightly above it.

Last edited by galzohar : 02/08/08 at 9:13 PM. Reason: link fixed, however it does show on the main post!!!!
#1361SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Johnneke
For my own gem choices I always try to get the socket bonus with the orange crit/dmg and dmg/stam purple gems. This mainly since on highend gear the socket bonus is mostly worth it.

What I do miss here and frankly on alot of places is that Screech (Owl/Bat hunter pet ability) stacks with demo shout. Since the AP of a raid boss is around ~350 having a hunter with a owl or bat in your raid will bring the boss its attack power to 0 even when you have CoR up, meaning CoR can be safely used on every raid boss where you can keep the screech and demo shout debuff active on the boss.
#1362SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vondem
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
www.lieuler.com should have all the answers. Overall with any realistic raid 12 damage gems win on total raid dps, although not by a huge margin, as 1 crit rating is more or less equal to 1 spell dmg, even slightly above it.
That's really weird, for some reason that link isn't working for me. I tried google searching it and nothing came up either lol.
#1363SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Most yellow/blue items seem to have a 4 dmg socket bonus. So you're effectively losing a bit under 7 spell dmg if you're taking crit as slightly above dmg to gain 4 dmg and 7 stamina. Not really a tradeoff I'd be willing to make unless my guild absolutely cannot supply spinels *or* if I need the blue gem to activate the meta.

yellow/yellow/blue items seem to have 5 dmg socket bonus which is about the same tradeoff as the yellow/blue items.

Use the spreadsheet and/or similar logic to figure out items socketed differently...
#1364SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Johnneke
Here is the post I made for my old guild forum a while back for locks that are interested in it.



What we know!

Maximum Attack Power Reduction on Raid Bosses: 340AP

Roar, Demoralizing Shout & Curse of Weakness DONT Stack
Screech (Owl/Bat Hunter Pet) is the ONLY AP Reducement Ability that does stack with the above

Attack Power Reduction from Roar: 240AP
Attack Power Reduction from Demoralizing Shout 0/5: 300AP
Attack Power Reduction from Demoralizing Shout 2/5: 348AP
Attack Power Reduction from Demoralizing Shout 5/5: 420AP
Attack Power Reduction from Curse of Weakness 0/2: 350AP
Attack Power Reduction from Screech (Rank 5): 210AP

Attack Power Increase from Curse of Recklessness: 135AP

What can we make from this!

A Raid Boss Without Curse of Recklessness has: 340AP
- Debuffed with 0/5 Demoralizing Shout: 40AP
- Debuffed with 2/5 Demoralizing Shout: 0AP
- Debuffed with 5/5 Demoralizing Shout: 0AP
- Debuffed with Roar: 100AP
- Debuffed with 0/2 Curse of Weakness: 0AP

A Raid Boss with the Debuff Curse of Recklessness has: 475AP
- Debuffed with 0/5 Demoralizing Shout: 165AP (With Screech: 0AP)
- Debuffed with 2/5 Demoralizing Shout: 117AP (With Screech: 0AP)
- Debuffed with 5/5 Demoralizing Shout: 55AP (With Screech: 0AP)
- Debuffed with Roar: 235AP (With Screech: 20AP)
- Debuffed with 0/2 Curse of Weakness: 125AP (With Screech: 0AP)

Synopsis

- When we have a hunter with a Owl or Bat pet with Screech (Rank 5) Curse of Recklessness can be used safely on ALL bosses while still getting the MAXIMUM Attack Power Reduction Possible (Exempt: Roar)

- When we do NOT have a hunter with a Owl or Bat pet with Screech (Rank 5) Curse of Recklessness can be used safely on most bosses depending on if we have a warrior with 5/5 imp ds or not. Bosses we do NOT want to use CoR on currently are: Azgalor, Mother Shahraz and Illidan, Reliquary of Sould (Phase 1).

Resources:
Wowhead: NOM NOM NOM
A brief primer on Attack Power - TheorySpot
Demoralizing shout et al.
Demoralizing Shout - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

All above information can be found through these and other various resources.

Last edited by Johnneke : 02/08/08 at 9:09 PM.
#1365SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vondem
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Most yellow/blue items seem to have a 4 dmg socket bonus. So you're effectively losing a bit under 7 spell dmg if you're taking crit as slightly above dmg to gain 4 dmg and 7 stamina. Not really a tradeoff I'd be willing to make unless my guild absolutely cannot supply spinels *or* if I need the blue gem to activate the meta.

yellow/yellow/blue items seem to have 5 dmg socket bonus which is about the same tradeoff as the yellow/blue items.

Use the spreadsheet and/or similar logic to figure out items socketed differently...
Can you give me a working link to the spreadsheet? Thank you

Edit: Nevermind, I found a working link, you mispelled lieulier lol. Thank you though.
#1366SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3oscredwin
New topic: How good are the new dawnstones(8 spell haste rating) and topazes(5 spelldamage and 4 haste rating) with haste? Aside from the raw data that the spreadsheets and shadowseer give us, are they better then runed living rubies? runed crimson spinels? was i stupid for buying out all the dawnstones i could at 30g a pop?

It seems that the Quick dawnstone is the new runed living ruby, at least for destruction.
#1367SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
galzohar
What I wonder is how to model lieuler's to adjust haste to affect the GCD of lifetapping. Although you can simply calculate 15.7 haste rating = 1% DPS increase for destruction shadowbolt spamming.
Scratch that, X% dps in fact causes more than X% increase in lifetapping:
mana consumption = regen + lifetapping
And therefore: (x>1)
x*mana consumption =/= regen + x*lifetapping
x*mana consumption = regen + y*lifetapping (y>x)

So the more regen you have the less % dps increase per haste rating you'll get... but still do more # DPS per haste rating you'll get.
The idea is that with more regen haste multiplies a smaller portion of what allows you do to damage (doesn't multiply your regen! only your lifetapping) but your damage that does get multiplied is bigger to start with which more than makes up for it, so more regen means you'll see less %dps and more #dps per haset rating.

If you're going to spinel anything in the near future, I would wait to see the finalized patch notes first!

Last edited by galzohar : 02/09/08 at 3:58 AM.
#1368SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 frmorrison
I doubt they are adding "epic" versions of the new haste cuts to BT, so 12 damage is still king.

However, the haste/damage topaz is better for 21/40 than Runed with the new GCD reduction.


Note the patch is a while aways.
#1369SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Oh I didn't notice it didn't include the epic version, although you may never know.

But yeah 5 damage 4 haste is definitely the best non-epic gem for destruction.
#1370SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3blecap
Hi guys i just downloaded an addon call " ItemValue" basically its to calculate the item value of the gear so as to select the best gear. Therefore i've search the forum and can't seem to find the gear formula to put it into the addon. Some help will be appreciated =p thanks!
#1371SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Faldrath
Interesting development, the 8-piece T6... now demo locks will be able to keep 2T5 and still get 4T6, should make them more efficient. And I almost wonder if someone will try to keep 2T4 and 4T6 to get the two best set bonuses.
#1372SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Cuddle
If I were (which I am) a casual PvE raider with no plans on ever seeing MH/BT before the next expansion how would I value haste rating as a warlock with the new 2.4 change incoming?

The thing is that with the "new" badge rewards, ZA and Sunwell 5-man drops and factionrewards I am seeing an increase in items with spell haste on them. As a hit capped (w/o suppression) affliction warlock (42/2/17) I'm feeling kind of content with chasing more +damage and the occational +crit boost (I have an abyssmal 12% crit but 1200 shadowdmg) and I'm worried that spell haste will mess up my cast cycle (UA, Corr, Curse, Immo, SL, SB-spam) but I'm even more worried that I miss out on a very important stat. Is spell haste of spellhit-ish importance for raiding and something I should strive towards and perhaps even sacrifice +dmg for? SB is after all almost 50% of my damage output.

So my first question is, as a warlock just starting slow progress into SSC/TK should I sacrifice spelldamage for spellhaste?
- EDIT: This has already been partially answered in this thread. I'd appreciate some further input though.

My second questsion: I've always thought that 1000+ dmg, hit capped and 20%+ crit would be some kind of treshhold before I starting trying destro in raid. Now that spell haste has become more accessible outside of MH/BT should I change this treshhold in any way to incorporate spellhaste as a possible substitute for some dmg or crit? (It's no easy thing to reach 1000dmg, 20%crit and hitcap with loot from Kara/ZA/Maggy/Gruul and heroics, believe me., so I'm hoping that the addition of easy access spell haste will make destro valid sooner)

I'm horrible with theorycrafting so I don't know if there is anyway to theoretically check the importance of spell haste after 2.4 but perhaps someone with alot of theory experience could make an estimate.

/Cuddle

Last edited by Cuddle : 02/10/08 at 12:11 PM.
#1373SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3fip
Cuddle, your first question depends on spec. Since you are currently Affliction I will answer with a solid: it depends. Are you Affliction with Ruin or Affliction with UA? If you are UA then the answer is: haste is still not good for you. Your instant dots will go on the target slightly more quickly with a lowered GCD and sure, some haste will make your bolts go faster, but you won't gain as much benefit from it as more +dmg. If you have Ruin instead of UA however (which is a better choice for Affliction at higher gear levels) then you will want some haste because I have seen 1300 dps parses of a Warlock in t6, spec'd affliction, but really wearing destro gear and something like 60% of his dmg was Shadowbolts. Even when I was spec'd affliction in t4, 40-50% of my damage was still from Shadowbolts. Haste will always be useful, you just don't need to aim for it if you're UA.

The only comment I would make about your 2nd question is that the 20% crit is dependent on the other Warlocks in your raid, namely: what is the ISB uptime for your guild? In my guild we will stack 4-5 Destro warlocks into a raid and our ISB uptime is something close to 90%. I was therefore able to go Destro prior to 20% crit because I was essentially able to mooch off of them. Why not just go Destro for a week? Does your guild use WWS or at least have some form of "reliable" damage meter that is tracked and watched? Just let the guild know that you are trying it for a week and want to see how it goes, then compare your results to your affliction dps. As a general rule of thumb from theorycrafting I did, your Destro dps needs to be at least +250 from your affliction dps for it to be worth the swap. That is going purely off Malediction and a shadow-heavy raid.
#1374SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3fip
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
I doubt they are adding "epic" versions of the new haste cuts to BT, so 12 damage is still king.

However, the haste/damage topaz is better for 21/40 than Runed with the new GCD reduction.


Note the patch is a while aways.
Personally I'm not anywhere near the GCD with my Shadowbolts, so going purely off your "with the new GCD reduction" comment, how does reducing the GCD help destro at all? GCD reduction is being put in place to help all those classes that use instants, such as the affliction spec. Unless you have so much haste that your bolts are dropping below GCD? If so, how much haste is that...
#1375SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by fip View Post
how does reducing the GCD help destro at all?
I cast Life Tap about 10%-15% of the time as well as some Curse. Having those spells go faster than 1.5 seconds will help my dps.
#1376SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rochan
I've been looking at the new items, upgrading my gear to the new stuff yields roughly 125 dmg, 20 crit, 125 haste, but -30 hit, still pretty good! Thats about 250 dps gain.
#1377SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
With 10-15% of the time spent lifetapping, haste will be exactly 10-15% more effective than it is now. That's not a big change, but it's nice, and depending on your current stats, can turn haste from being worse than spell damage per itemization point to better - which only really matters for gem choices and even there this change isn't a major factor - all it could mean is that haste gems are slightly better than damage gems instead of slightly worse (if at all).
#1378SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rochan
Indeed, if they put a 6dmg/5haste gem in the game, it may be worth socketing those instead of spinels for socket bonuses.
#1379SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
If a socket bonus is good enough for 6 dmg 5 haste, it's probably also good enough for the slightly inferior 6 dmg 5 crit gem. However it seems most yellow socket bonuses also require a blue which makes them worthless as 6 dmg loss is already too much.
#1380SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 frmorrison
The new caster gear has red and yellow sockets, so the devs finally see that dps generally don't like blue gems (just the 2 blue to get the meta), however healers enjoy blue gems (Royal).

With the yellow and red sockets, it should be worth it to meet the socket bonus.
#1381SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Sardaukar
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
I've been looking at the new items, upgrading my gear to the new stuff yields roughly 125 dmg, 20 crit, 125 haste, but -30 hit, still pretty good! Thats about 250 dps gain.
It seems a lot of the new gear is devoid of spell hit in favor of crit/haste. While great, is anyone planning on picking up some gear with hit they had not planned on to make sure they have enough? For example, I had not planed on getting Translucent Spellthread Neck since I have the Kael neck and didn't really *need* the hit, but now I'm thinking I may try to get that. I could see someone dropping Vestaments of the Seawitch for the new Sunfire crafted robes, Archi sword for the new dagger and a few other trades and suddenly being 30 spell hit under cap instead of 30 over.
#1382SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Sardaukar View Post
It seems a lot of the new gear is devoid of spell hit in favor of crit/haste. While great, is anyone planning on picking up some gear with hit they had not planned on to make sure they have enough? For example, I had not planed on getting Translucent Spellthread Neck since I have the Kael neck and didn't really *need* the hit, but now I'm thinking I may try to get that. I could see someone dropping Vestaments of the Seawitch for the new Sunfire crafted robes, Archi sword for the new dagger and a few other trades and suddenly being 30 spell hit under cap instead of 30 over.
Yep, I plan on picking up Tempest of Chaos instead of Zhar'doom now. I also plan on getting both [Ring of Captured Storms] and [Mana Attuned Band], and I've dropped [Cloak of the Illidari Council] from my wishlist.

The Sea Witch Robes are pretty close to the Ghostly Hatred Robes (you trade 27 haste and 13 damage for 27 hit), but theyre inferior to the crafted ones.
#1383SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lerker
With the release of the new gear for 2.4, I figured I'd come out of hiding and post rather than /troll the forums.

I've noticed a severe lack of +spell hit rating on 2.4 gear in favor of more haste and crit rating. With destro being quite hit reliant because of the high cap required (compared to other specs and classes) I'm wondering if this will impact destro DPS much, or if at all?

I'm only in SSC / TK at the moment, so I don't quite have BT/Hyjal gear to know quite how much +hit I'll be looking at nor how much I'll be dropping. Haven't really seen any talk about this the last few posts.

Edit: Just as I post a few posts on this topic are above me I missed
#1384SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Hit is still a very important stat, so that means some items become more powerful (bracers/off-hand from Akama and spell hit wand from Bloodboil) in Sunwell than they are now.

Also it further solidifies some items like Skull and Spellthread Neck as best in-game.
#1385SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Sardaukar
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Hit is still a very important stat, so that means some items become more powerful (bracers/off-hand from Akama and spell hit wand from Bloodboil) in Sunwell than they are now.

Also it further solidifies some items like Skull and Spellthread Neck as best in-game.
Especially since there appears to be a lack of jewelery in Sunwell. I don't think I saw a single +damage caster ring or neck in the loot list?
#1386SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Lerker View Post
With the release of the new gear for 2.4, I figured I'd come out of hiding and post rather than /troll the forums.

I've noticed a severe lack of +spell hit rating on 2.4 gear in favor of more haste and crit rating. With destro being quite hit reliant because of the high cap required (compared to other specs and classes) I'm wondering if this will impact destro DPS much, or if at all?

I'm only in SSC / TK at the moment, so I don't quite have BT/Hyjal gear to know quite how much +hit I'll be looking at nor how much I'll be dropping. Haven't really seen any talk about this the last few posts.

Edit: Just as I post a few posts on this topic are above me I missed
It really doesn't. most T6 wearing warlocks have problems with the hit cap, some really good loot BT/Hyjal comes with +hit. The last thing I need is more +hit on my gear. I'd welcome pieces that have crit, damage and haste.

update: for clarity: I'm currently at 220 hit rating, and have an elemental shaman in my group most of the time. it's a tremendous waste of stats, but I don't have replacement gear yet, been unlucky with drops lately.

Last edited by Arelenda : 02/12/08 at 11:46 AM.
#1387SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lerker
Originally Posted by Sardaukar View Post
Especially since there appears to be a lack of jewelery in Sunwell. I don't think I saw a single +damage caster ring or neck in the loot list?
Theres a decent BoE Ring and neck for jewelcrafting, BoE so far;

Link to MMO Champ Image
#1388SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Sardaukar
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
It really doesn't. most T6 wearing warlocks have problems with the hit cap, some really good loot BT/Hyjal comes with +hit. The last thing I need is more +hit on my gear. I'd welcome pieces that have crit, damage and haste.
The point of his post is that the sunwell largely has no hit on it at all. Start swapping out your hyjal/bt loot with +hit for sunwell loot with no +hit and its possible that you may suddenly need to balance gear to keep your cap. Some of the items mentioned that are currently merely good because the hit on them isn't really needed (Ring of Captured Storms comes to mind) might become more important when you are trying to adjust for losing lots of hit.
#1389SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Suggestive
So you gem for hit. It simply shifts your optimum gem choice, and your optimal choice of gear a little. [Mana Attuned Band] (which isn't far off from best in game) is suddenly a lot more attractive than [Ring of Ancient Knowledge] for example, and of course there's the new JC ring. You have to re-evaluate gear everytime a new instance comes out, that's nothing new.
Edit: Long story short, i don't see how it really affects DPS. Every stat has its value, and as long as those items are upgrades despite the lack of hit, and if you can make up the hit in other slots or through gems without too much trouble, you're still gaining DPS.

Last edited by Suggestive : 02/12/08 at 12:26 AM.
#1390SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mezmaron
Originally Posted by Suggestive View Post
So you gem for hit. It simply shifts your optimum gem choice, and your optimal choice of gear a little. [Mana Attuned Band] (which isn't far off from best in game) is suddenly a lot more attractive than [Ring of Ancient Knowledge] for example, and of course there's the new JC ring. You have to re-evaluate gear everytime a new instance comes out, that's nothing new.
Edit: Long story short, i don't see how it really affects DPS. Every stat has its value, and as long as those items are upgrades despite the lack of hit, and if you can make up the hit in other slots or through gems without too much trouble, you're still gaining DPS.
While I agree with you, it really annoys me to see all this spirit on items that could be hit rating (or any other stat useful to us). I know they are making 'universal caster dps' gear but aside from maybe shadow priests and arcane mages spirit is practically useless for mages and warlocks. I'm guessing shadow priests would even prefer +dmg over the spirit and I don't think most mages are raiding arcane anymore, so I don't really get the spirit thing.
#1391SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Mezmaron View Post
I don't think most mages are raiding arcane anymore, so I don't really get the spirit thing.
If the devs didn't put spirit on the gear, they most likely would put it into stam/int. Remember that 10% of your spirit counts as damage (assuming you have some 23 Disc Priests around), so it isn't that bad.

All you are losing is like 10 stam/int for 30 spirit, it is a wash either way.
#1392SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
The crit gained by +10 int is about as much of a dps increase as 30 spirit with improved divine spirit for destruction.
#1393SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Suggestive View Post
So you gem for hit. It simply shifts your optimum gem choice, and your optimal choice of gear a little. [Mana Attuned Band] (which isn't far off from best in game) is suddenly a lot more attractive than [Ring of Ancient Knowledge] for example, and of course there's the new JC ring. You have to re-evaluate gear everytime a new instance comes out, that's nothing new.
Edit: Long story short, i don't see how it really affects DPS. Every stat has its value, and as long as those items are upgrades despite the lack of hit, and if you can make up the hit in other slots or through gems without too much trouble, you're still gaining DPS.
Unfortunately, this doesn't take into the account the cost of gemming and regemming gear. One thing to consider is that heroic gems are no longer Unique, so I'll be farming heroic SP a lot for some [Vivid Chrysoprase].
#1394SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Pstar
On the front post, it says crits with ruin and a chaotic skyfire will be 209%. Shouldn't it be 206%? Untalented crit strike bonus is 50%, increase that bonus by 100% to make it +100% or 200% of normal, increase the 200% crit by 3% to get 206%.... am I crazy?

Edit: No, Bliz just uses some intergalactic math I guess.... I found this explanation off wowhead to be slightly more illuminating:

For Warlocks your crit is 209% (tested) with this gem and the math that blizzard uses to determine this is as follows...

With Ruin your Critical strike Damage bonus is 100% more than what your critical strikes are without it, so you take the Damage increase from a critical strike and multiply it by 2. Now the gem says 3% increased critical damage, which doesn't mean +3% bonus damage it means 3% more total, so you take the damage a critical strike would do and then add 3% to that value.

Thus

150% x 1.03 = 154.5% (Total damage from a crit with this gem but without ruin)
154.5% - 100% = 54.5% (Bonus damage from a crit with this gem but without ruin)
54.5% X 2 = 109% (bonus damage with ruin and gem)
100%+109% = 209% (damage done by a critical with gem and ruin)

Last edited by Pstar : 02/12/08 at 2:18 AM. Reason: oh
#1395SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vazu
With the influx of gear heavy in haste and low or lacking completely in hit, I wonder where Eye of Magtheridon ranks. I'm almost always in a caster group with a Draenei. Our raid is crammed with them. Both of our holy Priests, four Shaman, and one Paladin are Draenei. Because of this, and how our groups are setup, I frequently benefit from their 1% spell hit racial. According to this link, Magtheridon's Eye ranks #4 overall for 0/21/40. I see it's value going up substantially. A way for me to gear up in haste and down to 11% in spell hit rating. I want one more than ever now, after a glimpse of Sunwell itemization.
#1396SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Spoonman
Originally Posted by Vazu View Post
With the influx of gear heavy in haste and low or lacking completely in hit, I wonder where Eye of Magtheridon ranks. I'm almost always in a caster group with a Draenei. Our raid is crammed with them. Both of our holy Priests, four Shaman, and one Paladin are Draenei. Because of this, and how our groups are setup, I frequently benefit from their 1% spell hit racial. According to this link, Magtheridon's Eye ranks #4 overall for 0/21/40. I see it's value going up substantially. A way for me to gear up in haste and down to 11% in spell hit rating. I want one more than ever now, after a glimpse of Sunwell itemization.
Magtheridon's Eye at 12% hit is worth 75.3 spell dmg, yes. However, what people tend to ignore when looking at that table is that dropping to 12% hit is worth -67.8, giving you a net of 7.5 spell dmg plus whatever you gain from gear and gems. Assuming the 4% hit you dropped is converted point-for-point to spell damage, that's 50.5 additional spell dmg, giving you a total of 58. Basically, you're better off capping your hit and using Quag's Eye instead. Why would its value go up substantially? There's no change being made to the spell hit mechanic, so Mag's Eye will be worth the same as it always has been.
#1397SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Kyth
Don't forget that dropping spellhit increases the chance of a soulshatter resist as well.
#1398SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vazu
Originally Posted by Spoonman View Post
Basically, you're better off capping your hit and using Quag's Eye instead. Why would its value go up substantially? There's no change being made to the spell hit mechanic, so Mag's Eye will be worth the same as it always has been.
I guess mostly I'm just tired of looking at 200-202 in my spell hit rating box while drooling at the haste gear in Sunwell. Piece by piece I go through it, and not a drop of hit. Which means I either end up re-gemming for hit (and lose spellpower/crit) to work in new items, or figure out a way to dump some spell hit. Think about it in terms of gear combinations. How different would your gear / gem selections be if Suppression affected destruction spells? Really consider what your end-game raid set looks like. Where are you getting spell hit rating from? Are you wearing a specific piece of loot because you need it to reach the cap, even though you know there's a higher overall DPS drop in it's place? How many times have you taken a drop and then been forced to gem back up to 202?

I'm just saying, from the drops I've seen so far, maybe the trinket has a place now.

Edit: The poster above mentioning Soulshatter resists is the biggest downfall of Magtheridon's Eye for sure.
#1399SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Spoonman
Originally Posted by Vazu View Post
I guess mostly I'm just tired of looking at 200-202 in my spell hit rating box while drooling at the haste gear in Sunwell. Piece by piece I go through it, and not a drop of hit. Which means I either end up re-gemming for hit (and lose spellpower/crit) to work in new items, or figure out a way to dump some spell hit. Think about it in terms of gear combinations. How different would your gear / gem selections be if Suppression affected destruction spells? Really consider what your end-game raid set looks like. Where are you getting spell hit rating from? Are you wearing a specific piece of loot because you need it to reach the cap, even though you know there's a higher overall DPS drop in it's place? How many times have you taken a drop and then been forced to gem back up to 202?

I'm just saying, from the drops I've seen so far, maybe the trinket has a place now.

Edit: The poster above mentioning Soulshatter resists is the biggest downfall of Magtheridon's Eye for sure.
But, uh, if you need an item to reach the hitcap, then another item that goes in its place is not going to give you higher dps (assuming same ilvl) because spell hit is the cheapest dps stat that casters have. Going from Vestments of the Sea-witch (27 hit) to the new tailoring robe (0 hit) means you'd have to socket with two lionseyes and a dawnstone to maintain your hitcap (assuming you have no buffer above 202 currently). Guess what - that's still a dps increase. If you're not hitcapped, the biggest DPS increase is going to come from socketing for spell hit until you are.

To your question "Are you wearing a specific piece of loot because you need it to reach the cap, even though you know there's a higher overall DPS drop in it's place?" - yeah, I'm wearing Belt of Blasting instead of Anetheron's Noose. Assuming I'm hitcapped, the noose has slightly more spell dmg and crit, so is higher dps. But hey - all that spell hit on the belt means I can wear a different item elsewhere, and gain much more while remaining hit capped. As an addendum, I would personally say that the biggest downside to Mag's Eye is that it gives less dps than two-three other more easily available trinkets (Icon, Darkmoon:Crusade and HSH).

Edit: maybe I'm arguing something that you're not necessarily disagreeing with. If you want to stack haste, dmg and crit and ignore hit, who am I to stop you? If that's what will make the game more fun for you then go for it. if you want to know that you're doing the best dps you can do, though, staying at 202 hit is massively important.

Last edited by Spoonman : 02/12/08 at 5:40 AM.
#1400SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ammanas
Like previous posters have said, the main difference is going to be in slots where an item is only an upgrade because the hit you gain from another item is wasted. For example, the council cloak is only better DPS-wise than the Nethervoid Cloak if you are at 202 hit and gaining nothing from the hit. With what we've seen from 2.4 so far, I can't imagine wanting the council cloak over the Nethervoid anymore - theres so many awesome damage/haste/crit pieces in other slots. Also, the 2x RoAK route will probably not be optimal anymore since the Ring of Captured Storms and Mana Attuned Band are going to be places where you can pick up the extra hit you might need without losing much in the damage/crit/haste departments.

I would also think this puts the Tempest of Chaos/Chronicle combo substantially ahead of the Illidan staff, since the hit from the combo will allow you to use 2.4 gear that will more than make up for the loss of haste from the staff.

Its going to be interesting to see if they implement epic versions of the haste gems, because a damage/haste epic gem could certainly make a run at replacing the +12 damage gems as the best option.
#1401SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rochan
A couple notes:
-Mana Attuned Band (ZA Timed Chest) and the new Jewel Crafting Ring (has this dropped for anyone yet?) seem like solid rings due to the hit that we'll all need.
-I think my strategy will be to socket +12s in reds and 4d/5hit in yellows (noble topazes), until my gear is almost set and I can figure out how you'll reach the hit cap.
-Bust out your Scryer Bloodgems =P Gul'Dan/Bloodgem will be a great trinket combo.
-Tempest/Chronicle definately looks to be the best now, but remember you'll get a new weapon eventually, and possibly the haste offhand (dropped from Brutallus I think)
#1402SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lanzoni
I got this posted to me by a guild mate, it's about gemming T6 chest. Spinels vs "the rest"

Are these calculations correct?

According to simulation craft you gain 0.760 per spell damage and 0.492 per crit rating (ignoring other shadow casters so your Imp.SB is not increasing as much if you are by yourself).

10crit + 12 spell + 6 spell + 5 spell + 7 stamina = 23 spell damage + 10 crit + 7 stamina = 22.4 dps + 7 stamina

36 spell damage = 27.36 dps

Again from simulation craft, looking at Imp SB uptime with 2 shadow priests and 2 destruction warlocks, you have on 8% increased ImpSB uptime going from 200 to 300 rating and 4% increased ImpSB uptime gong from 300 to 400 crit rating. So lets assume you are going to see a 0.6% uptime increase at the 300 crit rating mark with 10 crit rating.

0.6% uptime at 20% damage increase is 0.12% damage increase overall for all shadow casters. We already assumed 4 shadow casters, say at 1250 dps which gives 5000k dps total. 0.12% of that is 6 dps. So the revised numbers look like this:

10crit + 12 spell + 6 spell + 5 spell + 7 stamina = 23 spell damage + 10 crit + 7 stamina = 22.4 dps + 7 stamina + 6 raid dps = 28.4 total dps + 7 stamina

36 spell damage = 27.36 dps
#1403SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Ammanas
Just a rough and very preliminary list of the interesting announced as-of-now 2.4 loot as far as warlocks are concerned:

Weapons:
[Sunflare] Not much to say but wow, we can safely assume its probably from Kil'jaeden.
[Grand Magister's Staff of Torrents] Intriguing because of the massive +hit, which could be useful in replacing the hit that is missing on a lot of the 2.4 gear.

New T6 Pieces:
[Bracers of the Malefic] Clearly a big upgrade over the previous best-in-slot (crafted BT bracers). Although the Akama hit bracers are looking more viable with the aforementioned lack of hit on the 2.4 gear we've seen so far.
[Boots of the Malefic] Again, another clear-cut upgrade over the Naj boots. Between the Boots/Bracers it should be pretty easy to upgrade some of the weaker T6 pieces (chest/legs) while maintaining the 4pc.
[Belt of the Malefic] The hit and haste are nice, but a damage downgrade from the BoB and the Noose.

Crafted Pieces:
[Sunfire Robe] Wow, this thing completely blows away the T6 robe/Vashj robes. Hard to imagine anything beating this out.
[Sunfire Handwraps] Tons of damage and crit, but no hit or possible T6 bonus.
[Pendant of Sunfire] Decent upgrade over the RoS neck, but with the lack of hit it may not be viable.
[Loop of Forged Power] Very similar to the ZA ring, is a nice potential source of hit.
[Annihilator Holo-Gogs] Tons of damage/crit and a penalty-free blue socket, worth considering for engineers.

Sunwell Cloth Drops:
[Leggings of Calamity] Ridiculous amounts of damage/crit/haste and nice sockets to boot, looks like a run away winner as best in slot legs to me.

Misc. Drops
[Wand of the Demonsoul] I personally think the two hit wands (Gurtogg/Solarian) are going to be better with all of the haste available elsewhere, but we'll see. 34 damage and 18 haste is nothing to laugh at on a wand.
[Timbal's Focusing Crystal] Looks like a great trinket for affliction locks, pretty useless for destro locks. Its going to be interesting to see exactly how the mechanics of it work, and whether or not it will be able to beat out the HSH/DMC:C.

I didn't include any of the "Raid Vendor" cloth dps gear, since it seems to be more geared towards shadow priest/mage gear with all of the spirit. The [Robes of Ghostly Hatred] are interesting as they are a clear upgrade over the T6/Vashj chests and it should take a while to have the necessary pattern/sunmotes drop to make the Sunfire chest (which will be in high demand).

This is obviously far from final loot table since everything is still on the PTR and in very early stages, but just at first glance it looks like the best possible 4 piece combination would be the Bracers/Boots/Shoulders and either the Helm or the Belt. Possibly the gloves, if you end up needing the hit. Using the non-set [Sunfire Robe] and [Leggings of Calamity] seem like pretty obvious choices to me. Its also nice to see all the red sockets on the new caster gear. Of course, this is all just for fun as everything is very preliminary and as more drops are either discovered or changed all of this speculation will probably become moot.

Last edited by Ammanas : 02/12/08 at 4:48 PM.
#1404SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Ludwig
Originally Posted by Ammanas View Post
Its going to be interesting to see if they implement epic versions of the haste gems, because a damage/haste epic gem could certainly make a run at replacing the +12 damage gems as the best option.
I think an epic version of the [Reckless Noble Topaz], assuming 5 haste/6 damage, will most certainly be better than [Runed Crimson Spinel]. Not only that, it seems like an epic version of [Quick Dawnstone], assuming +10 haste, will be better than the two.

Playing around with the new haste change of Leulier's spreadsheet with input stats of around 1500 spell damage, 30% crit, and 5% haste with 0/21/40, the following is what I got for the dps conversion per stat.
1 spell damage = 0.89 dps
1 crit rating = 0.89 dps
1 haste rating = 1.10 dps

This would in turn give:
2x [Runed Crimson Spinel] 21.36 dps
2x Reckless Pyrestone (if it exists) 21.68 dps
2x Quick Lionseye (if it exists) 22 dps

I calculated it in terms of 2 gems because Reckless (and Potent and Veiled as well), i.e. orange gems in general, have more "stat point" than their yellow gem counter part. This is why people advocated [Veiled Noble Topaz] over [Great Dawnstone] back in the day since [Noble Topaz] have 11 "stat point" over the Dawnstone's 10, assuming you'll be at 202 hit rating at the end of the day.

In this model, 2x Quick Lionseye (20 "stat point" total) gives more dps than the 2x [Runed Crimson Spinel] (24 "stat point" total) and 2x Reckless Pyrestone (22 "stat point" total). This is all of course very speculative and theoretical and assumes full benefit from spell haste.

Last edited by Ludwig : 02/12/08 at 4:55 PM.
#1405SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Knasen
Yes, there is a big lack of spellhit on all the gear we have seen so far but since all sockets are red or yellow its not that hard to put in +hit gems there to compensate? At the same time different gems will be used so you arent forced to stand in queue for 3 months for a spinel.

I really hope a another trinket turns up with +dmg and spellhit, the gap between scryers bloodgem and the illidan trinket is kinda big:P. Turning a rare drop from best to indispensible feels kinda bad. Putting those rare trinkets on the BT-rep vendor and let them be bought at exalted for gold wouldnt be too bad.
#1406SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Ammanas View Post
I didn't include any of the "Raid Vendor" cloth dps gear, since it seems to be more geared towards shadow priest/mage gear with all of the spirit. The [Robes of Ghostly Hatred] are interesting as they are a clear upgrade over the T6/Vashj chests and it should take a while to have the necessary pattern/sunmotes drop to make the Sunfire chest (which will be in high demand).
The "raid vendor" items are currently unknown how to get the non-sunmote, but they aren't better than T6 anyway.

The Ghost is just slightly better than Vashj (shows how well itemized that robe is).

The sunfire robe's mats are *very* easy, no sunmotes (I bet the mats will change), just need 375 tailoring. However, every caster will want the pattern.
#1407SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ludwig
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
The "raid vendor" items are currently unknown how to get the non-sunmote, but they aren't better than T6 anyway.

The Ghost is just slightly better than Vashj (shows how well itemized that robe is).

The sunfire robe's mats are *very* easy, no sunmotes (I bet the mats will change), just need 375 tailoring. However, every caster will want the pattern.
According to MMO-Champion and World of Raids, the non-sunmote token for the vendor are actual usable gear drop from the bosses. I.e. trade in a [Pantaloons of Calming Strife] and a sunmote for a [Pantaloons of Growing Strife]
#1408SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ashegorath
I've been really disappointed with the lack of warlock-focused gear (aside from Sunfire Robes and other choice pieces), so to keep myself sane I can only put down the lack of decent itemization to the gear being the best gear for leveling in WotLK. Massive crit/haste/damage w/o a thought of hit just points to that with some useless Spirit on the side. Do whatever it takes to get the 202 spell hit rating in the mean time.
#1409SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3weet
Well given that Leggings of Calamity showed up off of a boss (and were not previously found) and there are already 'token legs' with similar stats + spirit, it is quite likely that there is more non-set cloth drops which are not linked to the token vendor which have not been seen yet. So I would not simply judge all the gear as what our class was given yet.

Perhaps the token hand-in versions that have been seen are all somewhat of a 'refund' version that you can get if the healing one drops yet is not really useful for your raid, yet are not the best-in-game version for a dps caster. Also good as levelling gear when the expansion hits, as a healer can simply hand in all their healing gear for superior dps versions.
#1410SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3RunsWithScissors
Originally Posted by Ashegorath View Post
I've been really disappointed with the lack of warlock-focused gear (aside from Sunfire Robes and other choice pieces), so to keep myself sane I can only put down the lack of decent itemization to the gear being the best gear for leveling in WotLK. Massive crit/haste/damage w/o a thought of hit just points to that with some useless Spirit on the side. Do whatever it takes to get the 202 spell hit rating in the mean time.
What I am disappointed with is that both of the new dps tailoring pieces require spellcloth (12 and 6) and 0 shadowcloth each. I really hope they add something requiring shadowcloth or change some of the costs around
#1411SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyth
Originally Posted by Knasen View Post
Yes, there is a big lack of spellhit on all the gear we have seen so far but since all sockets are red or yellow its not that hard to put in +hit gems there to compensate? At the same time different gems will be used so you arent forced to stand in queue for 3 months for a spinel.
This was a lot simpler argument to make when swapping gems around willy nilly involved "only" your own gold.

Gems are not really a good solution to +hit problems due to the cap (high value up to 202, zero value after that point.)

When you're talking epic gems, you basically have to gem way over hitcap and just deal, so you're not wasting gems as you swap back and forth as gear changes (like I at least used to, when gearing through T4/T5.)
#1412SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Nerull
Originally Posted by Ammanas View Post
Weapons:

[Grand Magister's Staff of Torrents] Intriguing because of the massive +hit, which could be useful in replacing the hit that is missing on a lot of the 2.4 gear.

[Belt of the Malefic] The hit and haste are nice, but a damage downgrade from the BoB and the Noose.
I disagree with both statements.

The +hit is lacking on the gear, but the reason is pretty obvious, once you take the best in slot pieces [Hood of Hexing] ( from affliction point of view - stacked with 12 spelldamage gems ) , [Nethervoid Cloak] , [Tempest of Chaos] or [Vengeful Gladiator's Spellblade] , [Chronicle of Dark Secrets] or [Blind-Seers Icon], 4 piece tier 6, its actually quite hard to NOT be over the hitcap. Hence I understand the choice of blizzard to not put massive +hit on most items and its simply not needed.

The belt of the malefic vs anetheron's nose : I say that belt of the malefic is better if you can somehow manage to be under the hitcap so that you are actually using the hit on this item. To judge what is better you just take a look in the spreadsheet of leulier.com what 1 spellhit is worth, 1 haste , etc and then add it to a raw spelldamage value. As UA lock crit is usually around 0,3 , making [Anetheron's Noose] effectively 87 spelldamage, while with the changes in 2.4 regarding haste ( according to leulier 1 spellhaste is worth a little bit more than 1 spelldamage even for affliction ! ) make the [Belt of the Malefic] 111 spelldamage ( 50 + 29 from spellhaste + 20 from hit + 12 from epic gem ) making it considerably better. Even when you dont use the hit, it nets 91 damage which is more than anetherons noose !

Last edited by Nerull : 02/13/08 at 11:19 AM.
#1413SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Laquistifah
Does anyone know how valuable spell haste will be for Affliction and Destruction Warlocks, compared to crit/dmg, once it reduces the global cooldown? I'd like to know if I should start sacrificing damage and crit for haste and how, on a point to point basis, it compares to crit and damage.
#1414SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Laquistifah View Post
Does anyone know how valuable spell haste will be for Affliction and Destruction Warlocks, compared to crit/dmg, once it reduces the global cooldown? I'd like to know if I should start sacrificing damage and crit for haste and how, on a point to point basis, it compares to crit and damage.
For affliction: good.

For destruction: great. Obviously, it depends on how much of each stat you already have. For me it beats any other stat, at the moment. Compendium will be updated when the patch is released.
#1415SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Laquistifah
thanks
#1416SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ammanas
Originally Posted by Nerull View Post
I disagree with both statements.

The +hit is lacking on the gear, but the reason is pretty obvious, once you take the best in slot pieces [Hood of Hexing] ( from affliction point of view - stacked with 12 spelldamage gems ) , [Nethervoid Cloak] , [Tempest of Chaos] or [Vengeful Gladiator's Spellblade] , [Chronicle of Dark Secrets] or [Blind-Seers Icon], 4 piece tier 6, its actually quite hard to NOT be over the hitcap. Hence I understand the choice of blizzard to not put massive +hit on most items and its simply not needed.
Yeah, with the current best-in-slot gear its hard not to be over the hit cap. But looking at the gear we've seen from 2.4 so far, the Sunfire pieces, Sunflare dagger, ECT a lot of the current best-in-slot pieces with hit are going to be replaced (T6 or Vashj robe, ToC, ect ect) by pieces with tons of damage/crit/haste but that are lacking in hit. The lost hit is going to have to be replaced somewhere.


Originally Posted by Laquistifah View Post
Does anyone know how valuable spell haste will be for Affliction and Destruction Warlocks, compared to crit/dmg, once it reduces the global cooldown? I'd like to know if I should start sacrificing damage and crit for haste and how, on a point to point basis, it compares to crit and damage.
Even pre-2.4, haste is worth more point for point for me right now than damage (1.08 haste to damage). This is mainly because I have a ton of damage (~1620 fully raid buffed) and only 27 haste, but it should still give you a good idea of just how valuable haste is.
#1417SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lerker
One thing that recently came to mind but hasn't really been mentioned here, is 2.4 affliction vs destro.

With +dmg and haste becoming the dominant stats in 2.4 gear, is it possible that affliction could out perform sac destro with 2.4 gear and become the most prominent heavy DPS spec?

What I'm thinking is that with the lack of hit, a few of the really good 2.4 items will be pushed aside to maintain the hit cap, where as with affliction these could be picked up for a hefty +dmg and haste upgrade.

Of course my mind may be completely out of the ballpark.. thoughts?
#1418SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morwen
Originally Posted by Lerker View Post
With +dmg and haste becoming the dominant stats in 2.4 gear, is it possible that affliction could out perform sac destro with 2.4 gear and become the most prominent heavy DPS spec?
The answer is no because:
1. Destruction scales better with +hit (Fully usable)
2. Destruction scales better with +crit (Ruin)
3. Destruction scales better with +dmg (Shadow and Flame beats out DoT coefficients)
4. Destruction scales better with +haste (Uniform time compression)

Until some of these issues are addressed we should not expect affliction to win out at the high end.
#1419SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Lerker View Post
One thing that recently came to mind but hasn't really been mentioned here, is 2.4 affliction vs destro.

With +dmg and haste becoming the dominant stats in 2.4 gear, is it possible that affliction could out perform sac destro with 2.4 gear and become the most prominent heavy DPS spec?

What I'm thinking is that with the lack of hit, a few of the really good 2.4 items will be pushed aside to maintain the hit cap, where as with affliction these could be picked up for a hefty +dmg and haste upgrade.

Of course my mind may be completely out of the ballpark.. thoughts?
what the other guy said: it's the other way around. Sac destro will outpace affliction even more, since better gear becomes available and the spec simply scales better. Anything that simply gives a combination of +hit, +crit, +haste and +damage will _always_ be better for destro. For it to become more attractive, they'd need to make affliction-specific gear or bonuses. Or make dots affected by haste to some extent.

Besides, destro locks give up a pet, instant dots and their self-sufficiency, making that tradeoff has to result in increased damage output or the tree becomes utterly useless.

Also, on a personal note: as a BT farming destrolock, getting upgrades that don't feature a gazillion hit is a godsend. I'll finally be able to use all the really good items that I'm passing on now because they have wasted +hit on them.

Last edited by Arelenda : 02/13/08 at 7:54 PM.
#1420SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Ammanas View Post
Yeah, with the current best-in-slot gear its hard not to be over the hit cap. But looking at the gear we've seen from 2.4 so far, the Sunfire pieces, Sunflare dagger, ECT a lot of the current best-in-slot pieces with hit are going to be replaced (T6 or Vashj robe, ToC, ect ect) by pieces with tons of damage/crit/haste but that are lacking in hit. The lost hit is going to have to be replaced somewhere.
After looking at some of the gear preliminarily (and obviously the numbers may be tweaked), I'm finding that the three new t6 are "less bad" than their alternatives in-slot and that the new gear is likely to surpass most of the current gear (less than half the slots have pre2.4 gear). With the current gear I'm seeing the 3 new t6 + shoulders for 4p and then best in slot for the rest (illidan's helm actually coming in use?!). This isn't so bad for me (since I'm still in t5ish gear), but means a lot of the farmed bt/mh gear is going to be replaced...
#1421SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Sardaukar
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
After looking at some of the gear preliminarily (and obviously the numbers may be tweaked), I'm finding that the three new t6 are "less bad" than their alternatives in-slot and that the new gear is likely to surpass most of the current gear (less than half the slots have pre2.4 gear). With the current gear I'm seeing the 3 new t6 + shoulders for 4p and then best in slot for the rest (illidan's helm actually coming in use?!). This isn't so bad for me (since I'm still in t5ish gear), but means a lot of the farmed bt/mh gear is going to be replaced...
With bosses now dropping 3 tokens and the belt/bracer/boot tokens coming off the first 3 bosses in Sunwell, I don't think it will be long before most everyone has most of their pieces.
#1422SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Turbo Moses
Haste appears to be superior to +damage at even considerably lower levels of gear but seems to suffer from diminishing returns (according to Leulier's spreadsheet, which is oftentimes pretty screwy if you're messing with a lot of numbers), which isn't making a whole lot of sense to me. I was trying to get exact numbers at how much better haste is at BT gear levels, but as I increased haste, it seemed to worsen and worsen, which didn't make a whole lot of sense to me, since it seems that a flat % increase would stay a consistent increase in DPS, but it appears that it isn't, doesn't hit sort of work in the same fashion? As you approach the cap, the increase you get in DPS per point seems to get smaller. Anyway, at higher gear levels (like 1600 damage+) the returns on haste seem to be better until haste is at near ludicrous levels anyway (~30%+) so it seems like a non-issue. For lesser geared locks, they seem to approach that ceiling faster.

With this information in mind, it seems like us locks should start stocking up on the Dawnstones/Lionseyes and regemming all our gear with straight haste instead of even oranges, and much less straight reds. Perhaps socket bonuses would be worth sticking an orange or two in there, since damage is still very good, but it appears that as far as destro locks are concerned, that haste is the way to go.


I do have some questions regarding demo locks though, I myself am a demo lock, and I'm interested to see more of the armor come out so I can make some mock sets and see the DPS myself. I have a feeling then that trying to stretch things like the 2/5 T5 bonus will start to go too far, and demo will be decreasingly viable. While it can hold it's own in BT, I think it'll be difficult to maintain that sort of status in Sunwell. There's no real substantial increase in white stats, which is the only thing that really scales better than destro (given, it's not something you gear for, but something that you get a lot of, especially on lock sets, so it's far from a null point) and a much larger increase in things like crit and especially haste, which still does absolutely nothing for demons, so his DPS won't see much of a boost either. I'm guessing I'm going to have to turn in that demo badge soon. I suppose some concrete numbers would be nice, but some changes to demo are going to be necessary if it ever wants to compare at higher levels of gear. But my guess is that's not going to happen till 3.0 anyway, so best not get my hopes up. Any other raiding demo locks have more definite numbers than me?
#1423SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Turbo Moses View Post
as I increased haste, it seemed to worsen and worsen, which didn't make a whole lot of sense to me, since it seems that a flat % increase would stay a consistent increase in DPS, but it appears that it isn't, doesn't hit sort of work in the same fashion? As you approach the cap, the increase you get in DPS per point seems to get smaller. Anyway, at higher gear levels (like 1600 damage+) the returns on haste seem to be better until haste is at near ludicrous levels anyway (~30%+) so it seems like a non-issue. For lesser geared locks, they seem to approach that ceiling faster.
In 2.3, haste doesn't affect the percent of time you're casting instant spells, so it should diminish with more points. Hit works completely different as for the most part it stays at a very high value until it reaches a true ceiling. Haste doesn't have a realistic ceiling it just sees decreasing returns as you stack it.
#1424SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Turbo Moses View Post
Haste appears to be superior to +damage at even considerably lower levels of gear but seems to suffer from diminishing returns (according to Leulier's spreadsheet, which is oftentimes pretty screwy if you're messing with a lot of numbers), which isn't making a whole lot of sense to me. I was trying to get exact numbers at how much better haste is at BT gear levels, but as I increased haste, it seemed to worsen and worsen, which didn't make a whole lot of sense to me, since it seems that a flat % increase would stay a consistent increase in DPS, but it appears that it isn't, doesn't hit sort of work in the same fashion? As you approach the cap, the increase you get in DPS per point seems to get smaller. Anyway, at higher gear levels (like 1600 damage+) the returns on haste seem to be better until haste is at near ludicrous levels anyway (~30%+) so it seems like a non-issue. For lesser geared locks, they seem to approach that ceiling faster.

With this information in mind, it seems like us locks should start stocking up on the Dawnstones/Lionseyes and regemming all our gear with straight haste instead of even oranges, and much less straight reds. Perhaps socket bonuses would be worth sticking an orange or two in there, since damage is still very good, but it appears that as far as destro locks are concerned, that haste is the way to go.
This will pretty much be my approach with the new gear. I don't know if I'll switch from straight reds to straight yellows (thus likely creating a shortage of yellows rather than a shortage of reds), but 1 haste does seem to be better than 1.2 damage at most achievable gear levels.
#1425SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
All linear stats will diminish (very) slowly as you stack them. Haste diminshest very slightly faster than normal becuase it increases mana consumption while it doesn't increase the regen, so a higer % of your casts will be liftaps. If you had 0 regen haste would have no diminishing returns as you'd lifetap every X shadowbolts, and while haste would not be a straight +% damage, the dps you'd get from haste with 0 haste is equal to the dps you'd gain with a million haste. Either way haste, just like any linear stat, will be worth less and less spell damage the more you stack it. At the end though those difference are rather minoric and only change the value of 1 haste rating by less than 0.1 spell damage equivalent compared to what it would be with different gear/setup.
#1426SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Turbo Moses
Ah yes, the fact that haste doesn't technically increase your damage, just the rate at which you deal it had slipped my mind when I was writing that. Regardless, I'm ecstatic that haste is finally a gemmable stat, something I've been hoping for since it first started popping up on items, given, in my head, I woulda thought it more useful to have it on blues or something to make those blue/purple/green gems more valuable, as well as their slots, but it's nice to know that most Sunwell caster gear is devoid of blue slots anyway. I'm glad Blizzard has gotten itemization down much better these days. Plus it'd be hard to get those Sapphires and Amethysts away from other classes anyway.
#1427SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nektheritos
Bringing the subject onto gemable haste, what gem will now be better for an affliction warlock at the affliction hit-cap to gem for when looking for yellow sockets (when the socketbonus is just too tasty to not ignore), dmg/hit or dmg/haste? The hit would only really benefit the immolates/shadow bolts while haste would now help with the GCD, even though the gain from it seems slightly less in comparision.
#1428SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bokkie
Even for affliction locks, the shadow bolts will be a very big portion of your total dps. So hit is still very important as stated already several times in this thread.
Also, lowering the global cooldown, will give affliction locks effectively more shadowbolt time between keeping up dots, making hit for your bolts even a bigger factor in the equation.

Given that, I would surely go for hitcap on shadowbolts before taking in haste. But you can use the sheet now, since it was updated with the 2.4 haste model, to see what stat is more beneficial to you with your current gear and stats.
#1429SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by Morwen View Post
The answer is no because:
1. Destruction scales better with +hit (Fully usable)
2. Destruction scales better with +crit (Ruin)
3. Destruction scales better with +dmg (Shadow and Flame beats out DoT coefficients)
4. Destruction scales better with +haste (Uniform time compression)

Until some of these issues are addressed we should not expect affliction to win out at the high end.
I am not so sure number 3 is true... However, until you find gear that has only damage with no hit/crit/haste it will always be true that destro locks scale better.
#1430SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Cerine
Even then, due to the item cost of stacking a single stat, you'll get less out of an item with only damage than someone who can use dam, crit & haste and uses an item of the same item level with damage crit & haste.
#1431SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
I am not so sure number 3 is true... However, until you find gear that has only damage with no hit/crit/haste it will always be true that destro locks scale better.
Destro gets around 106% on shadowbolt, which is what they spam the entire time. Plus, it can crit, effectively doubling your spellpower bonus in that case. At end game, 30-35 crit chance is pretty common for destro (raid buffed). So roughly 130-140% (106*1.30) is a good estimate.

Affliction gets more than that on UA and Corruption (150%ish, roughly? I'm sure people will be able to give me the right numbers), which they cast every 18 seconds, but significantly less on SB (3/3.5=86%), which they use in between.

I'd say destro wins but barely. I'm sure people can run the numbers, I did it a while ago but didn't keep the calculations.
#1432SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3doogless
It's more than 86% because of Shadow Mastery.
#1433SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
A couple notes:
-Mana Attuned Band (ZA Timed Chest) and the new Jewel Crafting Ring (has this dropped for anyone yet?) seem like solid rings due to the hit that we'll all need.
-I think my strategy will be to socket +12s in reds and 4d/5hit in yellows (noble topazes), until my gear is almost set and I can figure out how you'll reach the hit cap.
-Bust out your Scryer Bloodgems =P Gul'Dan/Bloodgem will be a great trinket combo.
-Tempest/Chronicle definately looks to be the best now, but remember you'll get a new weapon eventually, and possibly the haste offhand (dropped from Brutallus I think)
Gul'dan + Bloodgem will still be a lousy combo, compared to Gul'dan + Icon. The power of the Icon is magnified by its more powerful on use that can always be synced up with Gul'dan's haste buff.
#1434SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Looking at lieuler's spreadsheet with my baseline stats (with some adjustments for aff/destro switches), taking out all the buffs for destruction for sake of comparison (as affliction usually lacks buffs due to being in the tank group):

Destruction: 0.823 dps/spelldmg
Affliction: 0.715 dps/spelldmg

So yes, afflction scales much worse with hit/crit/haste and doesn't even scale as well with spell damage. The only way for afflction to do any good dps is to spam DoTs on multiple targets, which just doesn't happen usually, and even when it does, depending on your gear level, may not be enough of a DPS gain to warrant affliction spec especially when considering it'll cause less spells to benefit from improved shadowbolt. for personal dps at least.

Affliction might scale better than destruction with spell damage with multi-dotting, though, but it doesn't really matter since even if it did scale better with spell damage it still doesn't scale with the gear upgrades that exist in the game.
#1435SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gugarasch
Since I started to read this thread and since my guild started to have one Destro Lock in the Raid, there always occured the same question to me. How can you do proper DPS as Destro without a Shadowpriest? Maybe it's just our Destros, who wont stop whining, if they are not in a SP Group. But you can also see it in our WWS Records. Destro never has 100% DPS Time on an encounter, because of Life Tap and DPS Time e.g. Damage Output gets lower if he has no Shadowpriest in his group due to more Life Tap if Pots are on CD.

Me as an Affliction Lock with tanks as groupmembers do lower DPS but I don't have to be supported that much. We only got two SP slots in our Raidsetup and that is why we got only one Destro in the Raid and keep having 2 Affliction. So how is it possible to do DPS without SP as destro? Or doesn't a Destro without Shadowpriest become as *weak* as affliction?
#1436SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Andeh-N
Originally Posted by Gugarasch View Post
So how is it possible to do DPS without SP as destro?
Whilst I rarely have to raid without a Shadow Priest in my group, on the occasion that I do it isn't really the end of the world. Just looking over some of our WWS reports, I get about 10k mana back on average for most Hyjal & BT fights, that's about 5-6 Life Taps for me personally, I'd imagine it isn't too far off of what it'd be for another Warlock too.

So if you figure that you have to LT 7 times extra in a fight without a Shadow Priest, which is about 10.5 seconds, though realistically it'd be safe to say about 12, due to lag. It doesn't cut into Destruction DPS so much so that it renders you useless.

TL;DR answer is 'Use pots (which you should anyway!)'
#1437SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3ankido
I have a question for everyone. There's a debate going on in the guild about Immolation. Does immolation fit in a warlocks rotation as a 21-40 raiding spec? Someone in the guild did the math and came up with an outragous number showing that immolation does more damage then spamming shadow bolt. Can someone please help me out here and help end this debate with SB vs Immo. Are these two spells good to use together or is it best to ditch immo and spam SB?
#1438SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Gugarasch View Post
Since I started to read this thread and since my guild started to have one Destro Lock in the Raid, there always occured the same question to me. How can you do proper DPS as Destro without a Shadowpriest? Maybe it's just our Destros, who wont stop whining, if they are not in a SP Group. But you can also see it in our WWS Records. Destro never has 100% DPS Time on an encounter, because of Life Tap and DPS Time e.g. Damage Output gets lower if he has no Shadowpriest in his group due to more Life Tap if Pots are on CD.

Me as an Affliction Lock with tanks as groupmembers do lower DPS but I don't have to be supported that much. We only got two SP slots in our Raidsetup and that is why we got only one Destro in the Raid and keep having 2 Affliction. So how is it possible to do DPS without SP as destro? Or doesn't a Destro without Shadowpriest become as *weak* as affliction?
DPS is very unreliable as a meter, just measure total damage done and compare that.

Destrolocks do benefit from a shadow priest, but I'd reckon any other class would benefit more from it, except for maybe an enhancement shaman. Any other class is severely gimped without mana.

However, if a destro lock gets _no_ healing whatsoever, their dps takes a giant dive as they resort to bandage or drain life. I only had that on Naj'entus, when we were learning him. Usually it's not a problem, and as long as you're smart about when to LT it works fine. After all, a raid typically has 6-8 people in it that spec and gear themselves to be mana batteries with efficient heals. The occasional hot fuels your life taps comfortably.

For comparison, if I get a shadow priest that gives me 9k mana during a fight (by doing 200k damage), I gain about 3 SB's worth (5 lifetaps at 1800 mana each). Roughly 15k extra damage in total. Assuming I do 150% of what the SP does, you can estimate my damage at 300k, 315k with the 3 extra bolts. Roughly 5% increased DPS. This is in best case scenario, assuming Lifetap GCD as 100% wasted time.

So a shadow priest gives me 5% extra damage.
A shaman (non elemental) gives me 100 spellpower, which is also 5%.
Moonkin gives me 5% crit, also 5%.
Elemental Draenei shaman would increase it with 13%. (4% hit, 3% crit, 100 damage)

These are _rough_ estimates with a lot of assumptions being made. But I hope they give you an idea of what helps destrolocks and by how much.
#1439SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by ankido View Post
I have a question for everyone. There's a debate going on in the guild about Immolation. Does immolation fit in a warlocks rotation as a 21-40 raiding spec? Someone in the guild did the math and came up with an outragous number showing that immolation does more damage then spamming shadow bolt. Can someone please help me out here and help end this debate with SB vs Immo. Are these two spells good to use together or is it best to ditch immo and spam SB?
I would recommend reading the warlock compendium, which is found somewhere on the EJ forum.
#1440SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Andeh-N View Post
Whilst I rarely have to raid without a Shadow Priest in my group, on the occasion that I do it isn't really the end of the world. Just looking over some of our WWS reports, I get about 10k mana back on average for most Hyjal & BT fights, that's about 5-6 Life Taps for me personally, I'd imagine it isn't too far off of what it'd be for another Warlock too.

So if you figure that you have to LT 7 times extra in a fight without a Shadow Priest, which is about 10.5 seconds, though realistically it'd be safe to say about 12, due to lag. It doesn't cut into Destruction DPS so much so that it renders you useless.

TL;DR answer is 'Use pots (which you should anyway!)'
The spreadsheet shows that the 300 mp5 given by a spriest is about equal to 90 or so dps. It won't make or break your destrolocks.

Keep in mind that a spiest is far less useful on any fight with 'safe' movement or 'safe' downtime, such as Alar p1's movement, or Illidan's phase change.
#1441SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyth
It does, however, make it far safer for them to lifetap on AE-heavy fights in, e.g., T6, because they don't need to tap every 13 seconds and risk an AE at the same time. Council is downright boring when I have a spriest because I'm not close to dying multiple times in the fight unless I get unlucky on envenom + wrath or something silly.

Keep in mind, while it's "just" 90 dps, that's still a pretty solid increase, and is on par with many of the group-based buffs. Especially since we're the main class who can turn that mana regen directly into dps rather than simply into more longevity.

Also warlocks can consume the "full" regen from a spriest (i.e. none is wasted.) The only other class that can come close to claiming that (unless you're running with arcane mages or something) would be healers, if they can find people to heal pretty much constantly.

If you are willing to take the overhead, things like swapping groups around mid-fight to feed half a spriest to the other mana-using classes while keeping your destruction locks with one full time is actually a pretty good use for the spriest.


That said, you *can* raid as destruction without a spriest, particularly in the T4/T5 content, but definitely in T6 also, it's just a lot more exciting when you tap and immediately afterwards envenom lands .
#1442SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Kyth
Professions in 2.4

(paraphrased from my post at Profession choices for 2.4 - Fusion)


This isn't 100% rigorous, but it's an approximation: what kind of dps contribution can I expect to get from my second (non-leatherworking) profession given what we know about 2.4 already?

There's some more detailed information in the post above (including my specific stats), but the conclusion I came to was:

Enchanting: +24 dps (ring enchants)
Tailoring: +36 dps ([Sunfire Robe] versus [Robes of Ghostly Hatred])
JC: +38 dps ([Pendant of Sunfire] versus [Translucent Spellthread Necklace])

i.e.: not a helluva lot of difference. Good work on that, Blizzard .


(this was all assuming you were at hitcap already, i.e. the worst-case for the +hit gear. The difference for JC is less if you actually need the +hit on the RoS neck to reach hitcap.)



(edit) I should probably clarify: since Leatherworking is giving you a good 80-100 RDPS per person with it, I'm not going to drop LW no matter what. It's more than worth its profession slot.

Last edited by Kyth : Yesterday at 7:01 AM.
#1443SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Roywyn
Originally Posted by Kyth View Post
This isn't 100% rigorous, but it's an approximation: what kind of dps contribution can I expect to get from my second (non-leatherworking) profession given what we know about 2.4 already?

There's some more detailed information in the post above (including my specific stats), but the conclusion I came to was:

Enchanting: +24 dps (ring enchants)
Tailoring: +36 dps ([Sunfire Robe] versus [Robes of Ghostly Hatred])
JC: +38 dps ([Pendant of Sunfire] versus [Translucent Spellthread Necklace])

i.e.: not a helluva lot of difference. Good work on that, Blizzard .

(this was all assuming you were at hitcap already, i.e. the worst-case for the +hit gear. The difference for JC is less if you actually need the +hit on the RoS neck to reach hitcap.)
Hm, I did the same thing for mages, and got Ench (+24) > Tai (+21) > JC (+17), number are +spell damage equivalents. Although mages are not warlocks, there's are few things that I think could help you.

The difficult part is the stat weighting.

1 damage is 1 damage. 1 haste and 1 crit are worth whatever +damage the spreadsheet tells you.

The value of hit completely depends on the available gear and buffs.
From the things we've seen so far, it seems we won't cap hit from gear alone. I count ~9% hit from best-in-slot (head enchant, ZA+JC ring, Skull, Chronicle*), ~12% with the 50-hit-stick. Warlocks have another 1.5% more from one of the new T6 pieces. That means we'll have to gem to reach the hit cap.

So, our gems will feature 2 purples for the CSD meta, and a mix or yellow/orange/red gems with hit and damage to cap.
If we now get another +10 hit from one item, we cap swap one +10 hit gem for one +12 damage gem.
Thus, +1 spell hit should be valued as +1.2 damage for gear comparison.

With this in mind, every socket should be valued as +12 damage, and every item can get its socket bonus.
The top of the line gear doesn't have more than 2 blue sockets, so blue sockets aren't worse than others since you need 2 for the CSD.
And red/yellow/orange gems are all worth +12 damage as we weighted hit vs. dmg with that in mind.


With those weights, for mages it ends up as: Ench (+24) > Tai (+21) > JC (+17)
Note that the values of Tai/JC will drop if a proper (no spirit) Sunwell robe or necklace appear.

I'm quite surprised that 14crit+13haste (robe) are so much better for you than 24dmg (ring enchants).
#1444SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Kyth
I used Leulier's spreadsheet for the lock calculations which does what you're saying: gives weightings for each stat.

To answer your "how in the world..." question:

STAT                  DPS BONUS
+1 shadow dmg	1.02
+1 fire dmg	0.00
+1 dmg	1.02
+1 hit rating	0.00
+1 crit rating	1.07
+1 haste rating	1.27

For locks with no +hit talent, we're actually going to lean extremely heavily on the yellow sockets to put orange hit/dmg gems in them. Otherwise we can't reach the required 16%. But either way I'm not sure why you brought up sockets, as there's no real decisions to make in any of the pieces I was talking about. I'm pretty familiar with how to evaluate gear, I was posting what I'd come up with in case I was (a) wrong for destruction locks or (b) it could save someone else some effort, not because I needed help understanding gear stats .

If you get a Grand Magister's Staff, of course, the hit considerations change, but every mage and warlock will want one, and if it follows the drop rate of Illidan staffs for us (3 in 6 months) I'm not going to design gear expecting it.


Now, the value of the stats change relative to the particular balance you have at any given moment. So technically, for example, my low haste gear (~7%) is not characteristic of end-of-sunwell gear (~18% probably), so this is, as I said, an approximation. What I haven't done yet is put the full new gearset into Leulier's, but I pointed that out at the start.

My main point really was not that JC > Tailor or whatever, but that they were all damn close and while I will generally spend any amount of money on a dps boost, at this point with so little information about what tradeskills I'll want in TBC, I'll stick with my current set (LW/Ench.)

There's been some angst around our guild, particularly from those who dropped tailoring to pick up leatherworking, and I was trying to show it wasn't warrented.



And, this may help you: keep in mind the tailoring robe also gets an additional +5 due to the socket colors being more favorable for the bonus if you have enough hit.

Last edited by Kyth : Yesterday at 8:08 AM.
#1445SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Bolche
It would be nice to add the profession comparision to the compendium (and add LW : ~27 haste rating if drums are chained I beleave)
#1446SourcePosted on<=2.0.0weet
Originally Posted by Kyth View Post
I will generally spend any amount of money on a dps boost
Well my plan is to keep Tailoring until I can craft the robe, then drop for JC to make neck and the 14dmg/12crit gems, and then to leatherworking (which I already had mats for but wanted to see what was in 2.4 first). Best of everything (Illidan helm > Engi t2) and gold is really meh especially with the expected inflation at 80.
#1447SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Bolche View Post
It would be nice to add the profession comparision to the compendium (and add LW : ~27 haste rating if drums are chained I beleave)
Good idea.

I'm going to wait with writing that until the patch goes live. Feel free to contribute yourself, though. I'll merge it in that case.
#1448SourcePosted on<=2.0.0 Eph
Don't forget engineering, or am I wrong in thinking the t2 goggles are best in slot (from what's been discovered at least)? My current plan is to make the robe, drop tailoring, and pick up the goggles. I suppose JC or LW could be an even higher dps increase though.

edit: JC also has a +14dmg gem so that bumps it up just slightly as well.

Last edited by Eph : Yesterday at 11:14 AM.
#1449SourcePosted on<=2.0.0 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Eph View Post
Don't forget engineering, or am I wrong in thinking the t2 goggles are best in slot
You are wrong, not having spell hit when most of the new gear is lacking in that hurts the damage/crit bonuses of Eng Helm. However, it is pretty competitive, just not best.
#1450SourcePosted on<=2.0.0 Eph
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
You are wrong, not having spell hit when most of the new gear is lacking in that hurts the damage/crit bonuses of Eng Helm. However, it is pretty competitive, just not best.
Ah, you're right I was thinking best in slot from 2.4. The [Cowl of the Illidari High Lord] is still better when considering the hit.
#1451SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3weebey
I tried searching this thread for my answer, but wasn't able to find anything solid on how many fire/frost users it takes to make curse of the elements worthwhile. Our raids aren't always overflowing with mages, so I'm not sure how many it takes to make up for the loss of DPS by not using CoD. Only one of our locks has 3/3 Malediction and he will almost always be better served using it on Curse of Shadows.

I've been tossing up CoS whenever there are two more shadow users, which is every raid.

My apologies if this has been gone over already.
#1452SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by weebey View Post
I tried searching this thread for my answer, but wasn't able to find anything solid on how many fire/frost users it takes to make curse of the elements worthwhile. Our raids aren't always overflowing with mages, so I'm not sure how many it takes to make up for the loss of DPS by not using CoD. Only one of our locks has 3/3 Malediction and he will almost always be better served using it on Curse of Shadows.

I've been tossing up CoS whenever there are two more shadow users, which is every raid.

My apologies if this has been gone over already.
Coe last 5mins, increases frost/fire by 10%.

If you cast CoD instead, you have to refresh it 5 times. Costs about 3 shadow bolts worth of casts due to GCD.

So it's worth it if : fire/frost damage over 5 mins / 10 + 3 * SB damage > 5 * CoD

Or roughly 1100 dps worth of frost/fire is required if I plug my stats in.
#1453SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by weebey View Post
I tried searching this thread for my answer, but wasn't able to find anything solid on how many fire/frost users it takes to make curse of the elements worthwhile. Our raids aren't always overflowing with mages, so I'm not sure how many it takes to make up for the loss of DPS by not using CoD. Only one of our locks has 3/3 Malediction and he will almost always be better served using it on Curse of Shadows.

I've been tossing up CoS whenever there are two more shadow users, which is every raid.

My apologies if this has been gone over already.
General rule of thumb:

1 frost mage = CoE
1 fire mage = CoD, swap to CoE at or about the 20% mark.
2 mages = CoE
#1454SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ammanas
They posted pretty good rules about CoE, but keep in mind CoR should take priority over CoE and CoD since every raid will have at least 7-8 melee including the tanks/hunters. Its safe to use on almost every fight if you keep Demo Shout up.
#1455SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Chersuine
Tank group Imp buff

A lot of the posts touched on this, but there was not a lot of discussion on the topic.

Does it make sense to keep one lock affliction to maintain the Imp buff in the Tank group? We have 3 locks that raid regularly and our last affliction lock respecced to Destruction. If any of the current locks respec back to affliction they are going to see a reduction in DPS. Needless to say none of us want to do it -- we currently take turns playing with our imp rather than a sacrificed pet.

Is there a discussion on the benefits of keeping an Imp available even with the loss of DPS? Or is this simply a raid preference, dependent on the raid leaders?
#1456SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Chaley
Originally Posted by Chersuine View Post
A lot of the posts touched on this, but there was not a lot of discussion on the topic.

Does it make sense to keep one lock affliction to maintain the Imp buff in the Tank group? We have 3 locks that raid regularly and our last affliction lock respecced to Destruction. If any of the current locks respec back to affliction they are going to see a reduction in DPS. Needless to say none of us want to do it -- we currently take turns playing with our imp rather than a sacrificed pet.

Is there a discussion on the benefits of keeping an Imp available even with the loss of DPS? Or is this simply a raid preference, dependent on the raid leaders?
It depends on your progression and your tank's gear. My guild just downed Illidan this past week, and we haven't had an imp in the tank group since Azgalor/Teron. We found that more DPS is more important, and your main tank should be given every single upgrade that drops no matter how minor. If your tank doesn't have the minimum health requirement for a boss I think it's pretty safe to say that your DPS/Healers don't have the gear for it either.

Still having an affliction warlock has its uses. I am our Malediction/Ruin specced warlock, and I put out respectable dps (#1 on the charts for our first Illidan kill) along with providing an Imp for Najentus/Council where having more HP on certain classes (Priests in particular) helps a lot. It also makes you easier to stay alive with dark pact instead of life tap. Gear choices have to be made in certain ways for an affliction warlock to pull some good numbers, but if you are in BT/Hyjal you have access to all the best affliction pieces.

One thing you shouldn't be worried about is personal DPS, nor should you worry about boosting your tank's health. One of your warlocks should be affliction just for the 5/5 SE and 3/3 Malediction debuffs as they can be pretty huge for certain raid groups or certain encounters. If personal DPS is a huge issue that can't be gotten around, figure out how much the extra 3% from Malediction would give the raid and add it to that warlock's damage. You'll see that if you look at it that way that warlock really doesn't lose damage.
#1457SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Chaley
I shouldn't drink while posting =).

Last edited by Chaley : 02/19/08 at 10:38 PM.
#1458SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Chaley View Post
One thing I was wondering (and didn't see it posted in this thread yet) was if the Int -> Spirit regen was going to give us any kind of OO5SR regen. Although we are extremely mana inefficient compared to every other caster any regen means less lifetaps/dark pacts, and thus would increase our damage however slight it would be. If anyone has any numbers or speculations I'd like to hear about it.
I don't know about you, but I'm never not-casting for more than 5 seconds. Shouldn't affect locks too much since the time is better spent LTing.
#1459SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Chersuine View Post
A lot of the posts touched on this, but there was not a lot of discussion on the topic.

Does it make sense to keep one lock affliction to maintain the Imp buff in the Tank group? We have 3 locks that raid regularly and our last affliction lock respecced to Destruction. If any of the current locks respec back to affliction they are going to see a reduction in DPS. Needless to say none of us want to do it -- we currently take turns playing with our imp rather than a sacrificed pet.

Is there a discussion on the benefits of keeping an Imp available even with the loss of DPS? Or is this simply a raid preference, dependent on the raid leaders?
If you've killed Illidan, my opinion is you don't need the affliction lock until Sunwell.
#1460SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
If you've killed Illidan, my opinion is you don't need the affliction lock until Sunwell.
This, no point in gimping your dps if you already beat the game, at least until the next patch.


Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
I don't know about you, but I'm never not-casting for more than 5 seconds. Shouldn't affect locks too much since the time is better spent LTing.
2 instances every Lock is out of the 5SR, during the freeze when Illidan is 30%, and in between trash pulls. Still ignorable, but it isn't bad to have spirit.
#1461SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
If you're still having trouble with any fight (which is mostly what we all gear/spec for, no? If everything is on farm things start to not matter as much although you could go for max dps but still the important discussion is what to do for progression), you should have affliction warlock in your raids. Especially if you think imp in the tank group is important enough to make a destruction warlock do it, you'd actually gain dps if that destruction warlock goes affliction since destruction with 15% less damage sucks. Not to mention when you're progressing you probably don't lose a lot of DPS for going affliction. It takes quite a bit of gear for destruction to outdps affliction+malediction, and a lot more gear than that for the dps increase of destruction to be worth the loss of shadow embrace and imp in the tank group (and again destruction with imp will probably do less dps than affliction at most/all gear levels).

To sum it up unless you have insane gear and everything in the game on farm, you should be affliction if your raid doesn't have one already. This goes all the way from SSC to killing illidan and will probably be applicable for sunwell as well. Just like you prioritize loot to the MT, you also prioritize people speccing into a spec that will contribute less dps to the raid but give a huge buff to the tank's survivability and lower tank dead tank and oom healer wipes.


Remember that the causes for wipes, from most common to least common (with a rather big difference between them), is:

-People handle special fight mechanics wrong and get themselves or others killed.

-Tank died to a random burst, either combined with healers not being able to heal at that very moment or not. While only a few bosses hit hard enough to have a small chance to deal an unhealable burst, lots of bosses do enough damage to have a chance to burst your tank enough to kill him if your healers also had other issues with the fight (be it handling mechanics wrong but not in a "instant wipe" way, too much raid healing and not healing the tank, or anything else that has to do with learning the fight). This is the most common wipe reason that can be patched with gear.

-Healers went oom. Usually when you're lacking shadow priests and/or raid is simply taking excessive damage from fight mechanics they're not used to - not enough to actually die and wipe but enough to run healers dry. This is rather rare though as people that take more damage than intended usually die.

-Not enough DPS. This is by far the rarest of all, as if everyone is alive they need to have pretty terrible skills and gear in order to not have enough dps to kill the boss before enrage. Usually people that are bad enough to not do enough DPS are also so bad they'll die to fight mechanics way before their lack of dps shows as a problem - it's that easy to have enough dps (or at least that much easier than the "staying alive" part).

Since having an affliction warlock helps with the most common reason for wiping by a lot while making the least common reason for wiping a little more possible (if at all, you do need pretty good gear for destruction to out-do affliction+malediction even counting destruction ISB raid dps increase), it's always a good idea to have one in your raid, unless you're just farming everything in the game, have so much gear that affliction will be a more noticeable raid DPS loss and just want to get faster timed clears.
#1462SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nerull
I think the effect of imp is getting more and more marginal.
When your 3/3 improved imp gave the tank 1k HP if you include kings which was at karazhan levels close to 10%, now with BT gear the imp has scaled down to only a 4,5% hp increase considering a non tauren MT of 21-22k HP buffed.

Aside that, my personal experience with wipes is at least my current guild that the MT pretty much dies last, pretty much never the MT dies for whatever reason , its usually another keyplayer who dies that is causing things to go downhill rapidly.

That all said, the only reason, which is still _very_ much valid and pretty much mandatory to have 1 affliction lock in sunwell is shadow embrace. The debuff is serious stuff.

If everything is on farm, as said earlier however, it doesnt matter what you spec , just play what you like most ? Im sure that if you are a reliable nice person the raid leaders wont mind you do 300 dps less than the destro locks when everything is on farm. Again that said when everything is on farm you spend most of your time in an instance on trash by far and that is where affliction can really shine. Despite being affliction I have been top 3 damage in almost all raids and thats mostly due to the fact that I pretty much raped everyone on trash.
#1463SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nerull
Destro spec and G15 keyboard

I also have a question about destro locks. After always been afflcition in raiding, I recently went destro as there was no more need of an affliction lock since everything is on farm.

The biggest things to optimize dps as destro is to make sure your shadowbolts are cast with the least delay possible , other than that you pretty much cant go wrong with the mechanics I figured.

To optimze the time casting shadowbolts I figured you can either get used to your rythm, or just spam the button after it has passed the 2 second line of the cast bar. I guess some will prefer the rythm thing, I guess thats most enjoyable to play, but if Im thinking in terms of maxing ( Im going destro now to max, Im still in love with affliction for the more complex gameplay ) , then the spam becomes more viable (?). Now instead of spam pressing my keyboard like a semi retard for 3-4 hours long, I decided to make a macro in my G15 keyaboard that passible spams the shadowbolt and trinket buttons like a maniac ( on a 0,02 second interval ) .

I now have fun watching the environment and enjoying the big number show instead of pressing it like a maniac.

My questions now are :

- Does anyone know if this considered legit or exploit ?
- If its considered exploit , is it detectable by blizzard ?
- Do you feel it takes the fun away from the spec that to be most effective you have to resort to this ?
#1464SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bahkauv
The G15's Macros are not illegal. If you use a macro that allows you to be afk for a certain time, it is illegal if you do so.

As long as you sit in front of your computer, it is not illegal. It is of course detectable, a guy pressing a button every 0,02sec and not answering to a GM and still pressing that button after the target is death/oor/whatever is quite suspicious ;-)

Regarding the fun thing: Destro spec is the least fun spec to play, at least in my opinion. No dots to refresh, no Felguard to save, just a button to press over and over again. Automating that task can´t reduce the fun, because there is no fun.
#1465SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Fafhrd
Destro isn't just pressing one button, if you're doing that, you're doing something wrong.

1. Spam shadow bolt, curses.
2. Keep track of aggro, plan for shatter, be ready for an emergency shatter
3. Plan your Life Taps
4. Plan your mana pots/destruction pots
5. Sync Bloodlust with trinkets
6. Sync your drum usage with the others in the group
7. Keep track of the particulars of the encounter
#1466SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bahkauv
2-5 and 7 is the stuff that every Warlock has to do during any encounter, and as you learn it, it becomes some kind of automatism. There is at least no difference between the different specs.

6 is something for Leatherworkers, which I am not.

1 is the point I was talking about. Of course I vastly exaggerated when I reduced it to shadow bolt spamming and not mentioning keeping a curse up ;-)
#1467SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Nerull
Im not sure if you are cynical about your analasys fafhrd or not, a serious reply here there though. It wasnt ment in a way like : Press macro and go watch tv while doing archimonde. Having build in the nobrainers as default , the only thing that remains as a big point for optimizing is the timing of SB bolting, which human reaction cant hope to optimze as much as a macro spam.

Most points are no brainers, only point I see for serious improvement is timing the trinket(s) on bloodlusts ( As said I was afflcition until a few days ago and not used to getting bloodlusts in MT group ).

Mana pot usage is something that although it slightly increases dps ( about 30-40 according to leulier ) , in encounters where the raid takes damage I prefer to keep it for the healing pot ( Bloodboil fel rage, RoS P3, Mother FA, Council the lovely envenom - flamestrike , Illidan P2 darkbarrage and healers not adapting appropriatly ). I do understand it gives more dps due to not having GCD and saving you from a lifetap. Can I shout at healers/other players to pay attention to my healthbar more ? Yeah I could, or I can just prevent dieing altogether , HP Pot + stone + deathcoil and if you arent healed up by then, then it is time for a chat yeah

When I dont have to pay attention to the castingbar at all, I feel I actually have more time to properly watch the encounter , environment and omen.

Last edited by Nerull : 02/20/08 at 6:14 AM.
#1468SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Kyth
Originally Posted by Nerull View Post
Mana pot usage is something that although it slightly increases dps ( about 30-40 according to leulier ) , in encounters where the raid takes damage I prefer to keep it for the healing pot
If you have the money, use Super Rejuvs.
#1469SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Fafhrd
It's true that every Warlock has too keep track of the things I posted, in addition to pet management, clipping dots, Dark Pact etc. And it's true it get's automatic after a while when you're have bosses on farm-status. I was just countering the statement that destruction is just SB spam.

Anyway, I'm probably influenced by doing new stuff in Sunwell, especially Brutallus, where you currently need all the dps you can squeeze out of every single player.

Nerull: With the new spell queueing mechanic I doubt you will get more dps out of your keyboard. You might save your SB finger from undue wear though.
#1470SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dakalro
If you don't use mana pots and don't get shadow priest then you won't see the huge dps increase you're supposed to get. On the other hand you should have been using mana pots even as affli, it's not a matter of spec, mana usage is about the same. Anyway mana opts also allow you more freedom on when you're LTing so you can view them as a reverse hp pot, you just can't control when you use it. But HS + DC is oh-shit enough, it's a 4.3-6.5k boost in hp after all (<3 HS crits and lately it seems more like theyr'e critting at my own crit rate).
#1471SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Madlax
I will cross post this here as well because many might be interested in the actual weighting:
ImageShack - Hosting :: warlockhastezo2.jpg

Started at
hitrating = 100;
critrating = 442;
shadowdam = 1400;
spellhaste = 0;
Going up by 1 by 1 for each stat and calcing DPS over a 60000(to get some flattened numbers) seconds cycle.

Picture should speak for itself.
=> http://elitistjerks.com/646902-post407.html
#1472SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nerull
Originally Posted by Madlax View Post
I will cross post this here as well because many might be interested in the actual weighting:
ImageShack - Hosting :: warlockhastezo2.jpg

Started at
hitrating = 100;
critrating = 442;
shadowdam = 1400;
spellhaste = 0;
Going up by 1 by 1 for each stat and calcing DPS over a 60000(to get some flattened numbers) seconds cycle.

Picture should speak for itself.
=> http://elitistjerks.com/646902-post407.html
That basicly confirms what everyone has been saying regarding +hit from post one.
Its the best stat point per point and it has the additional benefit of being budgetted in cheapest of all.

Crit is slightly over +damage, but I dont think the comparison is fair considering that +crit is a lot harder to get through item budgetting.

+Haste scaling best is something Ive seen in the Leulier spreadsheet also, however , its not like : Ok, lets stack haste now and ignore the rest. At some point the value of crit is going up a lot more than haste at which time you need to invest in crit again until the situation is reversed. Ive personally taken the Zuljin neck and bracers of nimble thought recently instead of the crit alternatives.
#1473SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Madlax
Ye, just keep in mind that in my calculation it´s a single warlock spamming SBs.
No other warlocks or shadowpriests there to leech - which would inevitably reduce the crit bonus again.

At some point the value of crit is going up a lot more than haste at which time you need to invest in crit again until the situation is reversed.
Haven´t found that point yet nor can I verify that it´s there.

Just doing another edit:
ImageShack - Hosting :: warlockdsyu1.jpg

Thats Demonic Sacrifice, no Improved Life Tap.
hitrating = 202;
critrating = 442;
shadowdam = 1300;
spellhasterating = 0;
As starting values.

Last edited by Madlax : 02/20/08 at 9:08 AM.
#1474SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ammanas
Originally Posted by Madlax View Post
Ye, just keep in mind that in my calculation it´s a single warlock spamming SBs.
No other warlocks or shadowpriests there to leech - which would inevitably reduce the crit bonus again.


Haven´t found that point yet nor can I verify that it´s there.

Just doing another edit:
ImageShack - Hosting :: warlockdsyu1.jpg

Thats Demonic Sacrifice, no Improved Life Tap.
hitrating = 202;
critrating = 442;
shadowdam = 1300;
spellhasterating = 0;
As starting values.
Yeah, its very nicely done and everything matches up with the numbers I've been getting from leulier except for crit. When I plug in my current raid-buffed stats (1630 damage 202 hit ~25 crit 2.7% haste) I still get damage as superior to crit at 1:.81 clip. Like you said though, the limitations to your calculations probably account for that. I really like the idea behind the graph, its a nice visual representation. The 2nd graph seems to be more in-line with my own personal findings via the spreadsheet.
#1475SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
As you can see from the WWS linked a few posts back and the discussion that follows, the main thing about DPSing is actually DPSing. Granted it's important to time your spell damage cooldowns and not clip them with lifetaps (ilfetap doesn't scale nearly as much with spell damage as shadowbolt, although at least it scales just as well with haste come 2.4), and preferably lifetap when you have to move anyway. And picking the right gear is also very important. But all of those factors dwarf in comparison to the importance of knowing how to actually not lose any casts and just stand there and dps as much as possible. That is, in fact, the main thing that seperates the good from the bad.
#1476SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Spuncan
Regarding Ritual of Summoning's tool-tip not mentioning soul shards:

Originally Posted by Hortus
This is a bug, Ritual of Summoning should require a soul shard.
WoW Forums -> [BUG] Ritual of Summoning

Oh well, there goes that dream.
#1477SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Cohren
Looks like our combined T6 Bracers/Boots/Belt changes are:

-120 Stamina
+52 Crit rating
+28 Hit rating

Going to take Praetorian's assumption that the stam was removed to discourage the use of 4 piece T6 in the arena and say that I for one am tired of PvP affecting PvE in ways like this.
#1478SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 frmorrison
While the 3 pieces lost 150ish stam (raid buffed with 21/40), which is 1,500 health while nice to have, there are only a few times with another 1500 health would make a difference. It is a nice dps increase and pre-changes the T6 belt was a sidegrade to Blasting, now no competitive to the "new" T6.
#1479SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Benafflock
Assuming the change to Emberstorm -- the first point now grants a 2% decrease in Incinerate casting time -- is the only significant talent change we will be receiving, is this enough to push an Incinerate 0/21/40 build ahead of a Shadowbolt one? I would guess that the answer is no; however, this change seems to indicate Blizzard will be further increasing the viability of an Incinerate build.

Pardon the ignorance, but what exactly is a G15 macro?
#1480SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Madlax
OT for Bena:
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/ke.../3498&cl=us,en

Ill throw those numbers into my calculation tomorrow and gonna tell you whether or not it´s gonna make a change.
You gonna get CoE, 15% improved scorch and 5% misery, immolate and 10% emberstorm + 10% casting speed.
This is gonna get interesting actually, though I doubt incinerate is gonna pull ahead.
#1481SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mordekhuul
Originally Posted by Madlax View Post
OT for Bena:
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/ke.../3498&cl=us,en

Ill throw those numbers into my calculation tomorrow and gonna tell you whether or not it´s gonna make a change.
You gonna get CoE, 15% improved scorch and 5% misery, immolate and 10% emberstorm + 10% casting speed.
This is gonna get interesting actually, though I doubt incinerate is gonna pull ahead.
Its not 10% casting speed increase. It is just 2%. mmo-champion's posting says that, strangely, only the first talent point increases cast time by 2% (along with the 2% fire dmg increase, and the remaining points just increase fire damage done as normal.

I suppose you might assume it is bugged on the PTR, and that the remaining 4 points are supposed to increase the cast time by 10% though.
#1482SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gumibear
Originally Posted by Mordekhuul View Post
Its not 10% casting speed increase. It is just 2%. mmo-champion's posting says that, strangely, only the first talent point increases cast time by 2% (along with the 2% fire dmg increase, and the remaining points just increase fire damage done as normal.

I suppose you might assume it is bugged on the PTR, and that the remaining 4 points are supposed to increase the cast time by 10% though.
It's almost surely bugged. I actually don't have the 2% speed increase with 4 points in Emberstorm.
#1483SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Turbo Moses
Yeah, I would run the numbers myself, but I'm studying for midterms...anyway, also take into account +15% from a sacced imp and the +25% from improved immolate. It should be interesting to see how things turn up, I'm pretty sure it'd result in a higher personal DPS, but unless imp SB is changed, shadow DPS might be preferred for greater raid DPS. Tough to determine right now, they'll be comparable anyway, and also, fire destro seems like a lot more fun to play than shadow destro. This seems like the probable build to use for 0/21/40 fire: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
#1484SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nerull
Originally Posted by Benafflock View Post
Assuming the change to Emberstorm -- the first point now grants a 2% decrease in Incinerate casting time -- is the only significant talent change we will be receiving, is this enough to push an Incinerate 0/21/40 build ahead of a Shadowbolt one? I would guess that the answer is no; however, this change seems to indicate Blizzard will be further increasing the viability of an Incinerate build.

Pardon the ignorance, but what exactly is a G15 macro?
The G15 is a programmable keyboard from Logitech.
You can program it so that the key spams the shadowbolt button , so all you have to do is press the key once you get close to the end and it will cast with the most precision possible - as soon as the game allows it. You can program it so that it only spams when you actually press the key which is preferred, or that the thing just keeps pressing it for infinity until you press the macro button again, which would work in some cases, but again , not preferred. Now if human error gives about 0,1 ms extra casting time, you are effectively increasing your dps by 4%, the more haste you have however, the more significant the difference becomes.

Played a bit with it yesterday and worked like a charm.
#1485SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Ncj
Originally Posted by Nerull View Post
The G15 is a programmable keyboard from Logitech.
You can program it so that the key spams the shadowbolt button , so all you have to do is press the key once you get close to the end and it will cast with the most precision possible - as soon as the game allows it. You can program it so that it only spams when you actually press the key which is preferred, or that the thing just keeps pressing it for infinity until you press the macro button again, which would work in some cases, but again , not preferred. Now if human error gives about 0,1 ms extra casting time, you are effectively increasing your dps by 4%, the more haste you have however, the more significant the difference becomes.

Played a bit with it yesterday and worked like a charm.
When I tried something similar it seemed to cause a bunch of casting lag instead of helping dps. Simply the lag reported by quartz was always a lot higher when having the SB button spammed compared to just 1-2 clicks. That was my experience but obviously do your own testing.
#1486SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ele'
Originally Posted by Nerull View Post
Now if human error gives about 0,1 ms extra casting time, you are effectively increasing your dps by 4%, the more haste you have however, the more significant the difference becomes.
Played a bit with it yesterday and worked like a charm.
Well, actually if you press to key to cast your next shadowbolt a bit before the completion of the current one (a bit before its completion according to Quartz latency bar), it will be casted as soon as possible. You don't need to spam the key, simply pressing it once a bit before the completion of the spell will work. (I doubt this can be imputed to the lag, I have almost none).
#1487SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Sympathy
Originally Posted by Turbo Moses View Post
Yeah, I would run the numbers myself, but I'm studying for midterms...anyway, also take into account +15% from a sacced imp and the +25% from improved immolate. It should be interesting to see how things turn up, I'm pretty sure it'd result in a higher personal DPS, but unless imp SB is changed, shadow DPS might be preferred for greater raid DPS. Tough to determine right now, they'll be comparable anyway, and also, fire destro seems like a lot more fun to play than shadow destro. This seems like the probable build to use for 0/21/40 fire: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
I'm terrible at calculations, but I would *assume* that Shadow DPS would still be more preferrable.
The question I'd like answered is if all raid conditions are optimal for both Shadow & Incinerate DPS, that Emberstorm 5/5 results in an increase in casting speed by 10%, and that the "rumoured" ISB changes go through (Only works for the warlock, and increases Shadow damage by 15% instead of 20%), what would the coefficient incease of Incinerate need to be to result in Fire being the best for personal DPS?

The reason I would ask is because with ISB possibly only affecting the warlock, the uptime of ISB would be inconsequential to the raid group as a whole, and with another "rumoured" Warlock change being a 'Incinerate spell coefficient increased by $', if that coefficient would be a ballpark figure of < 10%, then the rumoured coefficient change would make sense.

With the change in haste mechanics, and +haste on items being prevalent in SWP, the change to Incinerate and ISB would indicate Blizzard's desire to really push this relatively new stat onto players in replacement to crit.
#1488SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyth
Originally Posted by Sympathy View Post
The reason I would ask is because with ISB possibly only affecting the warlock, the uptime of ISB would be inconsequential to the raid group as a whole, and with another "rumoured" Warlock change being a 'Incinerate spell coefficient increased by $', if that coefficient would be a ballpark figure of < 10%, then the rumoured coefficient change would make sense.

With the change in haste mechanics, and +haste on items being prevalent in SWP, the change to Incinerate and ISB would indicate Blizzard's desire to really push this relatively new stat onto players in replacement to crit.
Given how haste works (or rather doesn't work) with dot ticks, fire spec is not going to be fun with haste in the game.

We don't even have a filler spell to help out on the rotations: conflag is a dps loss, recasting immolate early is a dps loss, searing pain is double threat, and an incinerate where immolate wears off halfway through is a dps loss.
#1489SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3elrac
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
While the 3 pieces lost 150ish stam (raid buffed with 21/40), which is 1,500 health while nice to have, there are only a few times with another 1500 health would make a difference. It is a nice dps increase and pre-changes the T6 belt was a sidegrade to Blasting, now no competitive to the "new" T6.
well considering everyone and their uncle will want the sunfire robes, leggings of calamity, and either the haste gloves or sunfire gloves, and sunflare, this is gonna be a pretty significant health loss overall
#1490SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Krazen
With the new Skull nerf, how does [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] compare to [Icon of the Silver Crescent]?

When synced with the Skull every activation, I was pretty convinced Icon was superior, but I don't know if that is still the case.

Currently, with my ~100 haste, I get 8 Shadow Bolts under the 20 second duration of the Icon, or 10 when paired with the skull. This effectively boosts the 26 dmg on use of the skull by 25%, to 32 damage. Heroism further boosts this effect.

Last edited by Krazen : 02/21/08 at 11:54 AM.
#1491SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rochan
Yes, I think now I will use Crusade over Icon for fights like Brutallus (100% probability you will keep Crusade up), 80dmg vs 69.

Regarding incinerate/emberstorm: Obviously the talent is broken, however, I don't think the 2% with one point works. I have 1 pt in emberstorm and my incinerate had the same cast time as shadowbolt (2.34s).

Oh and elrac, add the Eredar Twins shoulders to that list =)
#1492SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
I just fiddled with the spreadsheet's cast-time on incinerate. If Emberstorm gives 10% haste, a lock with maxed 2.4 gear would see slightly higher personal DPS with a fire spec. They outperform shadow by more if they can't use CoD, so if you're in raids where you always are on CoS/E/R, fire will be even slightly better. However, you don't contribute to ISB uptime. It certainly would push fire back into a decent raid spec though, if a slightly selfish one. :P
#1493SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3PSGarak
But if you're not casting Curse of Doom, your contribution to ISB uptime increases, so you would want to be using shadow instead of fire...
Addressing the lack of Bane affecting incinerate is a good thing. But until something compares to Improved Shadowbolt, or shadow priests start going out of style, fire would have to completely blow shadow out of the water to be worth using. I suppose it makes fire-destro acceptable for 5-mans and 10-mans, which is more than you can say for it now.
#1494SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Idk
Originally Posted by Kyth View Post
an incinerate where immolate wears off halfway through is a dps loss.
I'm almost certain that this is not true. I believe that if immolate is up when you begin casting (and wears off before you finish casting) that you still get credit for immolate being "up" for the purpose of additional incinerate damage. I can't provide any hard evidence for this but I do use fire (sacced imp destro) on a limited number of fights and have found this to be the case.

Also, incinerate is affected by any immolate on the target.. so if you have even 1 other lock using immolate the probability of immolate being down is going to be quite low.
#1495SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Idk
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
But if you're not casting Curse of Doom, your contribution to ISB uptime increases, so you would want to be using shadow instead of fire...
Addressing the lack of Bane affecting incinerate is a good thing. But until something compares to Improved Shadowbolt, or shadow priests start going out of style, fire would have to completely blow shadow out of the water to be worth using. I suppose it makes fire-destro acceptable for 5-mans and 10-mans, which is more than you can say for it now.
If ISB still affects the raid then your assessment is spot on. However, if ISB no longer affects the raid then personal DPS is the only metric for a warlock's contribution to the raid (beyond their curse).. given this, if fire is better personal dps \then fire will be the way to go.
#1496SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Tahapenes
Originally Posted by Sympathy View Post
I'm terrible at calculations, but I would *assume* that Shadow DPS would still be more preferrable.
The question I'd like answered is if all raid conditions are optimal for both Shadow & Incinerate DPS, that Emberstorm 5/5 results in an increase in casting speed by 10%, and that the "rumoured" ISB changes go through (Only works for the warlock, and increases Shadow damage by 15% instead of 20%), what would the coefficient incease of Incinerate need to be to result in Fire being the best for personal DPS?

The reason I would ask is because with ISB possibly only affecting the warlock, the uptime of ISB would be inconsequential to the raid group as a whole, and with another "rumoured" Warlock change being a 'Incinerate spell coefficient increased by $', if that coefficient would be a ballpark figure of < 10%, then the rumoured coefficient change would make sense.

With the change in haste mechanics, and +haste on items being prevalent in SWP, the change to Incinerate and ISB would indicate Blizzard's desire to really push this relatively new stat onto players in replacement to crit.
I calculated that back before the PTR went live and the change requires that the coefficient for Incinerate be increased by about 0.21 or 0.22 to pull equal with SB even with the change to ISB.
#1497SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
But if you're not casting Curse of Doom, your contribution to ISB uptime increases, so you would want to be using shadow instead of fire...
Addressing the lack of Bane affecting incinerate is a good thing. But until something compares to Improved Shadowbolt, or shadow priests start going out of style, fire would have to completely blow shadow out of the water to be worth using. I suppose it makes fire-destro acceptable for 5-mans and 10-mans, which is more than you can say for it now.
While feeding SPs (and therefore their groups) is great, if a raid moves from shadow-locks to fire-locks, the raid-DPS from losing ISB isn't that great. Also, if most guilds are keeping an affliction lock for utility, they are still providing some ISB buffage to the raid.

If you had 2 SPs at 1200dps, going from 65% uptime to even 25% uptime drops the SP's individual DPS by less than 100 each, so it wouldn't be hard to make that up in personal gains.

Obviously it's all speculation depending on the talent, but the loss from ISB wouldn't be that huge.
#1498SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pidge
The damage on Incinerate is locked after the spell is cast. If immolate drops before the bolt hits the target, you'll still get the bonus, but if it drops before you finish casting, you won't.
#1499SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
The damage on Incinerate is locked after the spell is cast. If immolate drops before the bolt hits the target, you'll still get the bonus, but if it drops before you finish casting, you won't.
My understanding of the tooltip on incinerate is that it doesn't need to be your immolate either, just "target is afflicted by immolate". This means that with multiple locks even if personal uptime is low, it'll likely still be afflicted by the spell.
#1500SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Turbo Moses
Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
The damage on Incinerate is locked after the spell is cast. If immolate drops before the bolt hits the target, you'll still get the bonus, but if it drops before you finish casting, you won't.
So if you watch your DoTtimers close enough, there should be no real DPS loss, as far as incinerate goes, the only DPS loss would be either if you cast it slightly too early and the last tick of immolate doesn't hit, or if you hit it slightly too late, and the time lost where there's nothing ticking between immolates, regardless, nothing ENORMOUS. What actually might be an interesting mod is an attachment to Dottimers that shows right before a dot ticks off, a horizontal bar, with a mark in the middle that calculates your haste that points out the exact perfect time to start recasting a dot or something. If any of you have ever played CABAL online, perhaps somewhat like the combo meter. I don't know, something to chew on for a mod idea. But might be too limited in use to be worth programming. Would just be a nice visual representation of when to recast dots.
#1501SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gumibear
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
I just fiddled with the spreadsheet's cast-time on incinerate. If Emberstorm gives 10% haste, a lock with maxed 2.4 gear would see slightly higher personal DPS with a fire spec. They outperform shadow by more if they can't use CoD, so if you're in raids where you always are on CoS/E/R, fire will be even slightly better. However, you don't contribute to ISB uptime. It certainly would push fire back into a decent raid spec though, if a slightly selfish one. :P
Can you post your modified spreadsheet? Nothing I'm doing on leulier's 2.4 spreadsheet will make Incinerate come ahead of Shadowbolt. I even modified my ISB talent points to 4/5 and set myself up as the only shadow user in the raid ISB tab to simulate the ISB nerf from the "fake" patch notes, and my DPS went up.
#1502SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Unless you'll be running with more than 1 fire lock on the same target, having to refresh immolate befoer the last tick needs to be taken into account when calculating dps. If you're running multiple warlocks, though, that effect is greatly reduced but there's still a small chance for an incinerate to land without an immolate being up if you rely on the other warlock to cover your immolate dot-gap.
#1503SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Gumibear View Post
Can you post your modified spreadsheet? Nothing I'm doing on leulier's 2.4 spreadsheet will make Incinerate come ahead of Shadowbolt. I even modified my ISB talent points to 4/5 and set myself up as the only shadow user in the raid ISB tab to simulate the ISB nerf from the "fake" patch notes, and my DPS went up.
Don't have a place to upload things, but:
Go to the Lists tab and in every entry for Incinerate replace 2.5 with:
(2.5/(1+0.02*ember))

Check the raid debuffs for Imp Scorch and CoE/misery. Choose Imp as pet, 5 pts in emberstorm, 5 in imp immo and put immo in the casting list. I have CSD and t6 on in that version. With this as the stats:
Add shad 1,701.81
Add fire 1,647.81
Total crit % 32.64
Hit % from gear 16.00
Stamina 600
Intellect 671.33
Haste % 21.97
mp5 161.9798
HP 9000
Mana 10069.95

I might have made a mistake, but don't think I did... Let me know if that works out on yours.

Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Unless you'll be running with more than 1 fire lock on the same target, having to refresh immolate befoer the last tick needs to be taken into account when calculating dps. If you're running multiple warlocks, though, that effect is greatly reduced but there's still a small chance for an incinerate to land without an immolate being up if you rely on the other warlock to cover your immolate dot-gap.
The affliction lock is probably casting as well. Even so, the "haste" of the fire build would make the dot uptime pretty easy. Choosing between life tap or a close to 2s cast nuke means it'd be pretty easy to line it up. The probability of the gaps overlapping would be a pretty small dps loss.
#1504SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
In fact, if you actually need the liftap mana (which I would guess is reasonable but need to do the numbers to make sure) you could completely eliminate the dot-gap effect I mentioned even as a single lock if you just lifetap once when you know your next incinerate will fire up after your immolate wears off - then you can recast immolate without clipping.
The only way this would not work is if you had enough mana/regen for the fight duration to not need to lifetap every immolate.
#1505SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Gumibear
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
Don't have a place to upload things, but:
Go to the Lists tab and in every entry for Incinerate replace 2.5 with:
(2.5/(1+0.02*ember))

Check the raid debuffs for Imp Scorch and CoE/misery. Choose Imp as pet, 5 pts in emberstorm, 5 in imp immo and put immo in the casting list. I have CSD and t6 on in that version. With this as the stats:
Add shad 1,701.81
Add fire 1,647.81
Total crit % 32.64
Hit % from gear 16.00
Stamina 600
Intellect 671.33
Haste % 21.97 You really have that much haste or did you account for the Incinerate buff twice?
mp5 161.9798
HP 9000
Mana 10069.95

I might have made a mistake, but don't think I did... Let me know if that works out on yours.



The affliction lock is probably casting as well. Even so, the "haste" of the fire build would make the dot uptime pretty easy. Choosing between life tap or a close to 2s cast nuke means it'd be pretty easy to line it up. The probability of the gaps overlapping would be a pretty small dps loss.
I editted as you said.

In my original copy of the spreadsheet (for SB comparison), my stats are:

Shadow: 1726
Fire: 1609
Crit: 32%
Hit: 16%
Haste: 7.23%
mp5: 411.7 (accounting conservatively for VT and super mana pots)
HP: 10507
MP: 9388
custom lifetap OOM time: 360 seconds

In the second copy which has the Incinerate edit, to account for changing my cloak and weapon enchant, I changed:

Shadow: 1651
Fire: 1701
Crit: 33.13%

I'm getting 2289.31 for a Shadowbolt spamming build and 2081.34 for Incinerate with 5/5 Emberstorm and 5/5 Improved Immolate.

EDIT: Nevermind, forgot to turn on Improved Scorch. I thought it was turned on by default. Getting 2393.55 with the new Emberstorm.

Last edited by Gumibear : 02/22/08 at 12:55 AM.
#1506SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Gumibear View Post
You really have that much haste or did you account for the Incinerate buff twice?
...
EDIT: Nevermind, forgot to turn on Improved Scorch. I thought it was turned on by default. Getting 2393.55 with the new Emberstorm.
Doh, that was testing out using a ton of the haste gear... Sounds like I didn't miscalc though, just had to get that 15% scorch buff. Again it's not a HUGE dps increase from shadow, but it is definitely an increase.
#1507SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gumibear
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
Doh, that was testing out using a ton of the haste gear... Sounds like I didn't miscalc though, just had to get that 15% scorch buff. Again it's not a HUGE dps increase from shadow, but it is definitely an increase.
Now we have to wait and see if that ISB nerf comes true. My raids have about 65% ISB up time, so it would only take about 2400 DPS combined from both Shadow Priests in the raid to equal the gain from 3 Destruction Warlocks going from shadow to fire. 1200 DPS per Shadow Priest doesn't sound like too much to expect.
#1508SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Silaine
A quick sideways jump from the Fire-spec discussion.

My guild is currently working on Bloodboil in BT. We have cleared MH. I've been Demo for a long time but the fights seem so unfriendly for a pet. Destruction is definitely not working for me.

Can I get some advice regarding a spec for the rest of the bosses in BT?
#1509SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Turbo Moses
Originally Posted by Silaine View Post
A quick sideways jump from the Fire-spec discussion.

My guild is currently working on Bloodboil in BT. We have cleared MH. I've been Demo for a long time but the fights seem so unfriendly for a pet. Destruction is definitely not working for me.

Can I get some advice regarding a spec for the rest of the bosses in BT?

Well, I mean, you could be the guild's affliction bitch, but aside from that, what real options do you have?
#1510SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Silaine
Well, I mean, you could be the guild's affliction bitch, but aside from that, what real options do you have?
I guess I will just stay as destro and eventually I'll get items that'll make the spec shine. And in the meantime I'll gather +fire dmg items, just in case.
#1511SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3tack
Anyone been doing any thinking regarding taking out Neltharions Tear from the bank again in SW? Might be an item to take into consideration for even the balance out, before getting your hands on the hit-gear that will be needed to maintain hitcap when taking the first couple of upgrades in SW.
#1512SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Madlax
T6 Belt - 20
T6 Boots - 28
Head: Illidan head - 21+14
Rings: Captured Storms and JC crafted - 38
T6 Shoulders(seems best for 4 part bonus) - 21
Nethervoid cloak - 18
---
160 hit

And there's plenty of room to play with still
#1513SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Suggestive
Considering there are multiple trinkets out there better than [Neltharion's Tear], even if you aren't hitcapped, no not really. You shouldn't be considering that or the [Scryer's Bloodgem] at all. And you really shouldn't need either.
#1514SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Gumibear View Post
Now we have to wait and see if that ISB nerf comes true. My raids have about 65% ISB up time, so it would only take about 2400 DPS combined from both Shadow Priests in the raid to equal the gain from 3 Destruction Warlocks going from shadow to fire. 1200 DPS per Shadow Priest doesn't sound like too much to expect.
Yeah, it would depend on how many SPs are in a typical raid. We usually have just one SP and 3-4 locks, so the DPS increase wouldn't have to be as large to make it worth the swap. When you did the quick math in the quoted post did you include 1 affliction lock or are all of your locks destro at this point? One affliction lock working against 2 SPs shows ~30% isb uptime.

Originally Posted by Silaine View Post
I guess I will just stay as destro and eventually I'll get items that'll make the spec shine. And in the meantime I'll gather +fire dmg items, just in case.
You can definitely "shine" in t5/badge gear if your guild is still working through BT. I'd look into other reasons for lack of DPS than the gear.
#1515SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3imalock
It seems like [Eye of Magtheridon] is not mentioned that much anymore but I have a question. Is it still good enough to be worn if I am hit capped? Or just wear Icon + Crusade (at 16% hit)? My friend keeps telling me that I should drop my spellhit% from 16% down to 12% according to the DPS trinket website(sorry, can't remember the website's name) if i want to keep using Mag's eye.

Some say even if I am using Mag's eye i have to get 16% spellhit and others say I have to drop down to 12%. >.< I am confused. Currently my hit is 203. I am 1/45/15. I am also using icon + mag's eye for now and swap out icon with VST if the boss has AoE skills.
#1516SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Madlax View Post
T6 Belt - 20
T6 Boots - 28
Head: Illidan head - 21+14
Rings: Captured Storms and JC crafted - 38
T6 Shoulders(seems best for 4 part bonus) - 21
Nethervoid cloak - 18
---
160 hit

And there's plenty of room to play with still
No, the new shoulders released off Eredar Twins are far superior to T6 shoulders. Given current known gear, if you aren't an engineer, t6 helm is the best in slot of the old pieces.

You also want to use the Skull of Guldan in these calculations.
#1517SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by imalock View Post
It seems like [Eye of Magtheridon] is not mentioned that much anymore but I have a question. Is it still good enough to be worn if I am hit capped? Or just wear Icon + Crusade (at 16% hit)? My friend keeps telling me that I should drop my spellhit% from 16% down to 12% according to the DPS trinket website(sorry, can't remember the website's name) if i want to keep using Mag's eye.

Some say even if I am using Mag's eye i have to get 16% spellhit and others say I have to drop down to 12%. >.< I am confused. Currently my hit is 203. I am 1/45/15. I am also using icon + mag's eye for now and swap out icon with VST if the boss has AoE skills.
Gimping your hit to 12% will result in a far greater DPS loss than the gain that the mag's eye proc will give you. Use Icon + Crusade.
#1518SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3imalock
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
Gimping your hit to 12% will result in a far greater DPS loss than the gain that the mag's eye proc will give you. Use Icon + Crusade.
I forgot to mention that i don't have crusade atm. I currently have Icon and Mag's eye(DPS trinkets that i have so far). So i take it that you meant I should just stay at 16%spellhit even if I am using Icon + Mag's eye?

Thanks in advance.
#1519SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by imalock View Post
I forgot to mention that i don't have crusade atm. I currently have Icon and Mag's eye(DPS trinkets that i have so far). So i take it that you meant I should just stay at 16%spellhit even if I am using Icon + Mag's eye?

Thanks in advance.
Yep, although there are superior trinkets to Mag's eye that you can use instead when you get them.
#1520SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Gumibear
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
Yeah, it would depend on how many SPs are in a typical raid. We usually have just one SP and 3-4 locks, so the DPS increase wouldn't have to be as large to make it worth the swap. When you did the quick math in the quoted post did you include 1 affliction lock or are all of your locks destro at this point? One affliction lock working against 2 SPs shows ~30% isb uptime.
All Destruction Warlocks. I'm around 32% crit raid buffed (I'm in an elemental shaman group), our other long-time raiding Warlock is at about 30%, and our newest app is at something like 35% last I checked.

Last edited by Gumibear : 02/22/08 at 4:27 PM.
#1521SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Trickykid
Originally Posted by Gumibear View Post
All Destruction Warlocks. I'm around 32% crit raid buffed (I'm in an elemental shaman group), our other long-time raiding Warlock is at about 30%, and our newest app is at something like 35% last I checked.
If there were a significant DPS increase from going to Fire, it would still be worth having one shadow to buff the SPs and their VT. Whether that's in the form of Affliction or Destro is up to the locks/raid. The changes depend quite a bit on the actual mechanics of any changes that occur, so speculation now I guess is a little silly, since the deltas on personal-gain versus raid loss are so close.

EDIT:
Originally Posted by Gumibear View Post
Would it be worthwhile for one Warlock to spam Shadowbolts to keep ISB up for Shadow Priests while the rest of the Warlocks use Incinerate?
Your ninja edit made my point... damn you. Keep in mind the Shadow-lock v 2xSP ISB uptime becomes very dependent upon the amount of nukes the SPs are spitting out. That number can change quite a bit if I'm not mistaken. Regardless, the FIRST ISB-lock is very influential, so having one around is going to be a good idea assuming the "fake" patch notes remain fake.

Last edited by Trickykid : 02/22/08 at 6:52 PM.
#1522SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Cohren
Are all these Shadow vs. Fire calculations being made with the assumption that Emberstorm will give a 10% decrease to Incinerate cast time? Unless I'm mistaken it is still unconfirmed if it is indeed meant to be 10% and not 2%. I know its good to do all the calculations beforehand but can do you believe that they would make a buff as big as 10% decreased cast speed AND nerf raid utility by making ISB only effect the Warlock that proc's it? Honestly if both of these changes are true then all that is happening is that Shadow and Fire are swapping places and they will need to do something to Destruction Shadow to make it more competitive as every Destro lock will then be fire.

If your going to theorycraft about Fire vs. Shadow there should be number crunching of only a 2% decrease as well as 10% until it is known what Blizzard intends with that change.
#1523SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gumibear
I'm accounting for 10% casting speed increase on Incinerate but not accounting for the potential ISB nerf. 2% seems absurd. There's no rationale for the first rank of a talent doing something different than all other ranks, and I wouldn't even be considering 2% as something that could push Incinerate ahead of Shadowbolt.

The 2% is currently a display bug on the PTR, as several people have reported there's no decrease in casting time from having that single point in Emberstorm, and further ranks don't show the 2% haste at all from the first rank.
#1524SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gumibear
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
EDIT:

Your ninja edit made my point... damn you. Keep in mind the Shadow-lock v 2xSP ISB uptime becomes very dependent upon the amount of nukes the SPs are spitting out. That number can change quite a bit if I'm not mistaken. Regardless, the FIRST ISB-lock is very influential, so having one around is going to be a good idea assuming the "fake" patch notes remain fake.
I ninja editted because the numbers were horribly wrong. After I figured out why ISB time was going up, I adjusted the ISB tab so it wasn't making Shadow Priests put up ISB. The correct number was about 50% ISB uptime on my own.

Shadowbolt does still scale ahead of Incinerate eventually, but I'm uncertain if something like 30% haste with 40% crit is obtainable or even optimal. It really looks like scaling is in Shadowbolt's favor still because of the increase of ISB and Bane vs. Emberstorm, but higher base damage on the Fire rotation is harder to overcome now.
#1525SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Cohren
There is no rational behind making fire a viable option. If they want fire to be viable, then the change to Emberstorm shouldn't be a decrease to Incinerates cast time but rather Transform: Mage. If they want different options in the end game raiding then they should work on having affliction scale with haste/crit gear.
#1526SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Cohren View Post
There is no rational behind making fire a viable option. If they want fire to be viable, then the change to Emberstorm shouldn't be a decrease to Incinerates cast time but rather Transform: Mage. If they want different options in the end game raiding then they should work on having affliction scale with haste/crit gear.
Fire has more talents in destruction than shadow does... so I'm not sure how you figure that. The rationale for making it viable (in raids) could be that they want to add more options along the spectrum of Raid-utility<--->Personal-DPS. As it stands now the best personal DPS also still benefits the raid quite a bit with ISB. I could see them adding a purely selfish spec to the "right" of that that helps the raid zero, but does more damage.
#1527SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Murdoch
I think the emberstorm change is there to buff PvP, making a destro arena build a bit less stupid.

Unless of course the ISB nerf is added, then the above statement becomes null, as ISB synergy is alot of the raid-buff reason to spec destro in the first place.

Lets hope they don't nerf ISB; a talent that has been all but unchanged in the 3 years I've played (expect for the buff that made dot ticks no burn a charge) and otherwise a mainstay of the raiding spec. And for more than one class.
#1528SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Emberstorm (Rank 5) reduces the cast time of your Incinerate spell by 10%, that is now in the patch notes.

This is great for those that like the animation plus helps Destro PvP, plus maybe Mage buff. A lot of Mages say their squishiness and lack of utility would be fine if they had CoE, buffing Incinerate may make a CoE end up on the mob.
#1529SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Thebeefe
This still isn't gonna change PvE Warlocks. ISB is invaluable to the raid, Aff is still as weak as ever on the DPS front. I guess its another few months with 21/40 or bust!
#1530SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3DaveA50
Lifetap now converts a % of your base health and mana.
Newest change on the PTRs.

How much will this obvious PVP change effect the sustainability of raiding locks. It seems like the less health, and more mana, the more efficient that it will be.
#1531SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3NanoHaxial
Originally Posted by DaveA50 View Post
Newest change on the PTRs.

How much will this obvious PVP change effect the sustainability of raiding locks. It seems like the less health, and more mana, the more efficient that it will be.
I hope it's not intended, but I wouldn't be surprised. If it is, it's a horrible change. You'd want to sacrifice a lot of Stamina, but with the amount of AoE/Raid Damage in encounters, sacrificing too much would get you killed quickly, and on top of that Life Tapping would be even more dangerous than before.
#1532SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vetinari
Right now, its 15% of your max health, for 15% of your current mana:

So I would guess its bugged.

Pretty massive PVP nerf though, since a 14k hp warlock, with 8k or so mana, will lose 3.6k hp, to gain 2k mana. I'm glad I only log in to raid.
#1533SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Thebeefe View Post
This still isn't gonna change PvE Warlocks. ISB is invaluable to the raid, Aff is still as weak as ever on the DPS front. I guess its another few months with 21/40 or bust!
Actual ISB is very easy to value as it adds an expected %increase to shadow damage. And if that increase isn't greater than a potential DPS increase from switching to fire, it's not valuable enough to keep.
#1534SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Drade
Originally Posted by Vetinari View Post
Right now, its 15% of your max health, for 15% of your current mana:

So I would guess its bugged.

Pretty massive PVP nerf though, since a 14k hp warlock, with 8k or so mana, will lose 3.6k hp, to gain 2k mana. I'm glad I only log in to raid.
Its actually at 26% of health into 26% mana on the PTR o.O...and doesnt appear to be doing that even. Obviously bugged.
#1535SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Emberstorm (Rank 5) reduces the cast time of your Incinerate spell by 10%, that is now in the patch notes.

This is great for those that like the animation plus helps Destro PvP, plus maybe Mage buff. A lot of Mages say their squishiness and lack of utility would be fine if they had CoE, buffing Incinerate may make a CoE end up on the mob.
That wording of the talent makes the cast time 2.5*0.9=2.25. I thought it was "increases casting speed by 10%", which woudl be 2.5/1.1=2.27.

Can tweak the sheet by changing the incinerate cast-time lists to
list_filler:

[top](2.5*(1-0.02*ember))/(1+haste/100)+lag
list_filler_haste:


(2.5*(1-0.02*ember))/(1+tns_haste/100)+lag
#1536SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Drade
The actual tooltip in-game says 2.25 seconds.
#1537SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Lumines
New lifetap change is really going to gimp us so bad. I went on PTRs and my lifetap gave me 850 mana compared to my original 1700+ mana on live

edit: tapping for 1290 now, forgot to get talents

Last edited by Lumines : 02/22/08 at 10:55 PM.
#1538SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Indaril
nvm...been posted before
#1539SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3scottemad123
after a couple restarts on the PTR it seemed to be fixed, now it actually gives mana back when low.
#1540SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 frmorrison
Scaling Life Tap and making SPriests viable were the two huge TBC buffs to Locks.

I tested with PvE gear (1400 shadow damage) 1600 Taps.

With S2/S3 gear (1000 damage) 1680 Taps.


My tooltip said 26% of health into mana.

Last edited by frmorrison : 02/22/08 at 10:49 PM.
#1541SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Madlax
Pardon the fact that this post is gonna blow some poor 17" away

I took the liberty to run let emberstorm run through my calculation bot.
Setup: 21/40 SB vs 21/40 Incinerate
SB with ISB, no cataclysm
Incinerate with cacatlysm
All possible raid buffs + t64part
10000 base mana
360 seconds duration
1000 cycles(to get average DPS)
Warlock is getting all his ISB for himself(granted he hits)
Immolate is up the whole time(from another warlock, NOT self cast)

Y-axis is DPS, X-axis is spelldamge scaling from 0-1800
(Yes for the theorycrafters, for each point in spelldamage it does 1000 cycles of 360 seconds)

I don´t dare to say that my calculation is 100% flawless, but it looks very close to reality.

Picture 1:
202hit, 0 crit, 0 haste, OLD emberstorm
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/6421/warlock1pl8.jpg

Picture 2:
202hit, 600 crit, 0 haste, OLD emberstorm
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/6317/warlock2md4.jpg

Picture 3:
202 hit, 0 crit, 300 haste, OLD emberstorm
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/2710/warlock3dn7.jpg

Picture 4:
202 hit, 600 crit, 300 haste, OLD emberstorm
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/2831/warlock4vv2.jpg

Picture 5:
202hit, 0 crit, 0 haste, NEW emberstorm
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/2982/warlock5fc2.jpg

Picture 6:
202hit, 600 crit, 0 haste, NEW emberstorm
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/2038/warlock6cz8.jpg

Picture 7:
202 hit, 0 crit, 300 haste, NEW emberstorm
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9357/warlock7id9.jpg

Picture 8:
202 hit, 600 crit, 300 haste, NEW emberstorm
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/3569/warlock8aj3.jpg

Picture 9:
202 hit, 600 crit, 300 haste, NEW emberstorm, NO mana used
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/9166/warlock9wb6.jpg

Picture 10:
202 hit, 600 crit, 300 haste, NEW emberstorm, SB without ISB
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/6...rlock10zc0.jpg

I´ll check for errors and see if I can tune the Mp5 into it next, or the Life Tap changes.

Conclusion?
From what the calculations give away it doesn´t seem to matter much whether you use SB or IC in endgame.
ISB is what pushes SB slightly ahead(mind a calculation with cataclysm might change values a little).
Both scale equally with haste, SB scales better with crit(what a surprise).
The margin that keeps SB ahead seems to be ISB - but this calculation is not done with shadowpriests and other warlocks in mind.

Note: Compare #8 and #10 and you will see that ISB accounts for roughly 400 DPS at 1800 spelldam.
Feedback is welcome
#Edit - pictures removed for new calculations

Last edited by Madlax : 02/23/08 at 9:40 AM.
#1542SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 frmorrison
The new 2.25 Incinerate is really very nice for leveling with emberstorm, with cheaper mana cost plus similar SB damage you do better than live's fire spells.

I wonder how incinerate's buff works with haste.
It is 10% off the casting time so 0.25 seconds off normally. With haste making Incinerate 2.42 (with 55 haste rating) it would be a 2.178 cast time, so it looks as you gain more haste Emberstorm doesn't give the same benefit as with 0 haste.
#1543SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Suggestive
This doesn't really mean anything since most locks don't raid in these circumstances. It might have been better to model 15% ISB against the change to emberstorm, but we all know how that will work out anyway.
#1544SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gumibear
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
The new 2.25 Incinerate is really very nice for leveling with emberstorm, with cheaper mana cost plus similar SB damage you do better than live's fire spells.

I wonder how incinerate's buff works with haste.
It is 10% off the casting time so 0.25 seconds off normally. With haste making Incinerate 2.42 (with 55 haste rating) it would be a 2.178 cast time, so it looks as you gain more haste Emberstorm doesn't give the same benefit as with 0 haste.
I have 114 haste rating on test. Shadowbolt is 2.33 on the tooltip and Incinerate is a flat 2.1. I just bring up this example because it makes the 10% really obvious.
#1545SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Flamingcloud
If the 15% isb with charges only usable by you happens, there won't be a shadow lock left.
#1546SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3RPZip
Originally Posted by Madlax View Post
Immolate is up the whole time(from another warlock, NOT self cast)
Perhaps a dumb question, but why would you assume this? Casting your own Immolates after they tick out should be more damage than continuing to Incinerate, even assuming that there are Immolates present for the bonus to Incinerate. Assuming a 30% crit rate, it's 1.5s to deal 409 + .25 * SD * 1.3 + ..65 * SD versus 2.25s to deal 923 + .91 * SD * 1.3, or (409 + .25 * X * 1.3 + .65 * X) / 1.5 = (923 + .91 * X * 1.3) / 2.25.

(409 + .25 * X * 1.3 + .65 * X) / 1.5 = (923 + .91 * X * 1.3) / 2.25
920.25 + 0.73 * X + 1.46 * X = 1384.5 + 1.77 * X
920.25 + 2.19 * X = 1384.5 + 1.77 * X
.42 * X = 464.25
X = 1105.36


According to my math, with 30% crit at any level of SD above ~1100 you should gain some damage by throwing your own Immolates in there after it's ticked out. I understand it'll make some of graphing more of a pain (most likely, the way in which you reference haste) but you're ignoring a fairly key part of the difference without factoring that in.
#1547SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3PSGarak
Just to transfer some info from the 2.4 thread to here, regarding new lifetap:
It's 15% (or maybe 16%). 26% is a display error. If you link the spell to a non-warlock they will see the correct value.
Mana return is currently working off of current mana, not maximum mana. Health cost is still max health. We assume this is a bug and will be fixed. Please keep in mind when reporting numbers from the test realm.
Reports are that improved lifetap is functional at the moment.

My hope is that the two percents become decoupled. Something like 15% health for 20% mana seems appropriate for a normal warlock's health to mana ratio. That depends on what the actual reason for the change is though, because I can identify at least three posibilities. Changing how lifetap scales with gear, an arena PvP nerf, or making INT more desireable for warlocks. On that note, what will it take for leulier's spreadsheet to include INT as a DPS stat, in terms of lowering time spent lifetapping?
#1548SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3KrmtDfrog
I just wanted to thank the OP for this post. My lock hits 70 soon and it's nice to have all the stuff - even the obvious crap everyone should know - laid out in a very simple, easy-to-read post.
#1549SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3KrmtDfrog
Originally Posted by Madlax View Post

I took the liberty to run let emberstorm run through my calculation bot.

....

Warlock is getting all his ISB for himself(granted he hits)
Immolate is up the whole time(from another warlock, NOT self cast)
Unless i'm missing someting, both of these are semi-unrealistic scenarios,
#1550SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3tetracycloide
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
On that note, what will it take for leulier's spreadsheet to include INT as a DPS stat, in terms of lowering time spent lifetapping?
Adding the new formula would take maybe 2 mins and maybe another 20 mins of work adding a sheet in to calculate TNS for INT. The custom life tap frequency setting would ignore the adjustments but all of the other options would adjust accordingly automatically as soon as the formula was updated.

Originally Posted by KrmtDfrog View Post
Unless i'm missing someting, both of these are semi-unrealistic scenarios,
You are not missing anything, both of those assumptions are skewed towards incinerate DPS considerably.
#1551SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Kyth
Originally Posted by Cohren View Post
There is no rational behind making fire a viable option.
Despite the fire talents in the destruction tree, I agree with you. Not having a fire-damage curse or any other dots beyond immolate feels exceedingly unwarlocky.

The lack of a fire-based curse in particular rubs me the wrong way for some reason (despite the fact that our current curse design means I rarely get to cast CoD.)
#1552SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Slake
The new Emberstorm/Incinerate talent change is exactly analogous to Bane/Shadow Bolt, in that it reduces the base cast time on Incinerate to 2.25 seconds. This changes the rate at which haste scales the spell, while not affecting the coefficient of Incinerate.

Collecting a lot of data on the PTR shows that it's pretty much 0.9*2.5/(1 + haste) for the cast time, rather than 2.5/(1.1*(1 + haste)), so the talent actually scales better than if it worked the other way around.
#1553SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kirion
Originally Posted by tetracycloide View Post
You are not missing anything, both of those assumptions are skewed towards incinerate DPS considerably.

If i got it right, this calculations are without scorch debuff on mob?
#1554SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Madlax
Fixing the ISB-consumptions to a given percent should not be too hard no, I´ll see about that later today.
Immolate will be harder to model yes and I didn't have any thoughts about whether it would improve or reduce DPS due to Incinerate simply being not used by now.
Taking small adjustments is easy but requires some more feedback from you.

As for the theory crafters:
What would an adjusted ISB rather look like then - going from a Brutallus viewpoint with 3 locks and 1 spriest.
15% ISB bonus? 3 instead of 4 charges?
Note: I'm calcing it based on a realistic model as I randomize each and every SB.

Incinerate base build:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Seems ok.

SB base build:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Immolate + Incinerate
I recall Incinerate getting full bonus of Immolation when cast, even if Immolation expires during the cast.
That correct or does it have to be on the target while the IC hits? *which I don't think*

But hey, were getting there.

#Update: Found a error in the cataclysm calculation.
Immolate ~60% done, need to play with values a little to check.
Adding 18 resistances aswell in the end calculation.

Last edited by Madlax : 02/23/08 at 10:24 AM.
#1555SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by tetracycloide View Post
Adding the new formula would take maybe 2 mins and maybe another 20 mins of work adding a sheet in to calculate TNS for INT. The custom life tap frequency setting would ignore the adjustments but all of the other options would adjust accordingly automatically as soon as the formula was updated.



You are not missing anything, both of those assumptions are skewed towards incinerate DPS considerably.
The spreadsheet doesn't need int added, just utilize the health and mana fields more.

Immolate is a dps upgrade if you have every fire talent and the new haste reducing global cooldown is in, so I don't see how that skews to incin... And I certainly don't see how getting to consume every sb tick you produce (I assume you also meant no overlap) is helpful to incin.

You can basicly test it right now on the spreadsheet by just doing +10% haste when your in incin spec. It is obviously close enough that one more nerf to shadow/isb would make incin considerably better.
#1556SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Drade
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
Just to transfer some info from the 2.4 thread to here, regarding new lifetap:
It's 15% (or maybe 16%). 26% is a display error. If you link the spell to a non-warlock they will see the correct value.
Mana return is currently working off of current mana, not maximum mana. Health cost is still max health. We assume this is a bug and will be fixed. Please keep in mind when reporting numbers from the test realm.
Reports are that improved lifetap is functional at the moment.
Its currently 15% off of maximum mana and health.

Lifetap subtracts 1501 hp, gives 1358 mana (10001/9234 hp/mana) on the current PTR build.

10001*.15=1500.1
9234*.15=1385.1

Both numbers are consistent regardless of what my current hp/mana is. Didnt test with Imp LT, but you mentioned it was working properly.
#1557SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3weet
I played around with the numbers yesterday with fire vs shadow with raid buffs + shaman + shadowpriest (what i personally raid with). This is without factoring in the lifetap change which has not been modelled yet afaik. I left coe and cos at both 1.10 modifiers. So effective mp5 was 419, and fight length was 360 seconds (Brut length, i see no reason to model anything longer as nothing thus far is longer without any movement time).
2.3 endgame sets see a 130dps increase from fire --> shadow
2.4 endgame sets see a 100-110 dps increase from fire --> shadow

One thing I was expecting was a lower lifetap time needed for fire specs, but once you add in immolate into the rotation, a shadow build only lifetapped once every 32 seconds as opposed to 33 for fire. Adding Judgement of Wisdom and mana pots (so roughly 600 mp5) gave 64 seconds per lifetap for shadow and 70 for fire.

So the difference in efficiency is really not that big. The real question for me is assuming one 38/2/21 shadow lock as a base, how much does each 21/40 lock contribute to raid dps due to ISB uptime given either 2 or 3 shadow priests? I find this work out so help would be appreciated, but I am guessing that in reality it is basically even. So unless we see another shadow related nerf most will probably stay as is.
#1558SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3tetracycloide
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
The spreadsheet doesn't need int added, just utilize the health and mana fields more.

Immolate is a dps upgrade if you have every fire talent and the new haste reducing global cooldown is in, so I don't see how that skews to incin... And I certainly don't see how getting to consume every sb tick you produce (I assume you also meant no overlap) is helpful to incin.

You can basicly test it right now on the spreadsheet by just doing +10% haste when your in incin spec. It is obviously close enough that one more nerf to shadow/isb would make incin considerably better.
Mana is derived from INT so I'm not sure what the difference is using one over the other. INT is already a field on the sheet and adding a TNS value for it would also allow the extra crit from int to be factored in as well.

ISB uptime goes up when adding an additional lock, not down, therefor only benefiting from your own ISB is a DPS reduction from a typical raid scenario. I'm assuming the model was correctly allowing ISB to time out after 12 secs if not consumed which, in a shadowbolt spam build like 21/40, would result in benefiting from fewer ISB charges than you would in a raid scenario.

Adding immolate to the incinerate rotation is not necessarily a DPS downgrade but it throws off the scaling rates for haste and crit. Obviously with a much smaller portion of the spell being capable of the crit bonus immolate will always scale worse with crit. Haste is a little trickier after the 2.4 GCD change, basically will divide the blocks of spam time available into staggered blocks. Now the current sheet averages all of that out across infinity so it will not show there but there will be points where adding haste to a shadowbolt build will add DPS that will not add DPS to the immolate + incinerate model. Shadow builds will have greater flexibility in their cast sequencing because the do no require a debuff to be recast on the target at fixed intervals to deal full damage.
#1559SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Madlax
Well, took a while to get some logic into the calculation.

Thats Incinerate + Immolate vs SB with all ISB self consumed(we want to make this biased again yes!)

And this
Is a sample output of the cast rotation.
1400spelldam, 600 crit, 300 haste, 360 secs duration, all talents how they should be.

Trade-offs?
140.07 Hit 3438
140.57 Immolate stops burning here
141.96 Hit 3490
143.22 tapped for IM @ 313 Mana left.
144.48 Immolated 5251

And yes, I cheated on the Immolate - all damage at the inital cast(cba to do timestamps and threads currently)
Could be better, still not perfect.

And I am desperate to hear quality conclusions now - mine goes towards using Incinerate.

Last edited by Madlax : 02/23/08 at 10:45 PM.
#1560SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3hackmage
I tried searching and I didn't see anything posted on a 40/21 spec. It's really popular with some of my guild's locks and one of the best geared locks on our server. I tried it and thought it was horrible, but I may not have had enough crit. to make it work. It goes down to SL and DK in demo and down to Ruin in destro. Has anyone seen this kind of spec. work, and what kind of stats do you need for it? And would it be better to just go classic 21/40?
#1561SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Zether
At what point should I stop worrying about the 2 piece t4 bonus?

I was using the t4 helm, t4 robe, along with the studious wraps.

Just the other day I won the Cowl of the Grand Engineer from VR.

I immediately socketed it with 3 runed living rubies and lost the meta gem of the t4 helm. I also replaced the studious wraps with the t4 gloves to keep the 2 piece bonus.

Should I say screw the 2 piece bonus, and put the studious wraps back on? or should I say screw the Cowl and put the t4 helm on, so i can use studious wraps again?

I'm at barely over 1100 shadow damage unbuffed, barely over 22% crit unbuffed, and 167 spell hit (im ALWAYS in a group with an elem shaman so that's all i need right?)

I just don't know these fine lines yet. And my guild is about to kill KT so we're almost in hyjal/BT
#1562SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by hackmage View Post
I tried searching and I didn't see anything posted on a 40/21 spec. It's really popular with some of my guild's locks and one of the best geared locks on our server. I tried it and thought it was horrible, but I may not have had enough crit. to make it work. It goes down to SL and DK in demo and down to Ruin in destro. Has anyone seen this kind of spec. work, and what kind of stats do you need for it? And would it be better to just go classic 21/40?
Demo with a Succubus?

It's listed in the compendium and I've tried this build myself, it's a personal favorite. I enjoyed playing it.

In the end I went back to 0/21/40 because I got tired of buffing issues, and I wanted full focus on encounters at hand, and having to focus on a succubus distracted me from that. We were learning BT at the time. And I didn't have a talisman.

With around 200-250 spellpower gained from DK and 5% crit from DT, combined with the 15.5% damage bonus you get from Soul Linked Succubus that still can dps, it is a powerful build. That power comes at a price: the succubus dies easily. It requires _very_ good control of your pet to pull off. I don't recommend it for people without 2p T5 2p and a [Void Star Talisman].

At _very_ high gear levels 0/21/40 probably outdoes it consistently, because SnF simply scales better than anything else and the demonic tactics bonus barely scales with gear. I say probably, because if the succubus is allowed to dps it might be close. No lash of pain, though. That's a major ISB sin.
#1563SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Zether View Post
At what point should I stop worrying about the 2 piece t4 bonus?

I was using the t4 helm, t4 robe, along with the studious wraps.

Just the other day I won the Cowl of the Grand Engineer from VR.

I immediately socketed it with 3 runed living rubies and lost the meta gem of the t4 helm. I also replaced the studious wraps with the t4 gloves to keep the 2 piece bonus.

Should I say screw the 2 piece bonus, and put the studious wraps back on? or should I say screw the Cowl and put the t4 helm on, so i can use studious wraps again?

I'm at barely over 1100 shadow damage unbuffed, barely over 22% crit unbuffed, and 167 spell hit (im ALWAYS in a group with an elem shaman so that's all i need right?)

I just don't know these fine lines yet. And my guild is about to kill KT so we're almost in hyjal/BT
ShadowSeer tells you that stuff, under procs. It hasn't been updated in a while because I got fed with damage reporting not being consistent, but that particular thing it measures well. It'll tell you what % of spells were affected and assign and overall spellpower bonus to it.

I've been holding off the rewrite until 2.4.
#1564SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3tusaki
I have a question for all you theorycrafters who are better with math than me.

I've been trying to figure out how much +shadowdamage you must get (buffed) to see 10K shadowbolt crits assuming 0/21/40, 4 piece T6, chaotic meta gem. (against +3 boss)

Also, if you figure it out, could you also post the math? I've been wondering what I'm doing wrong. Here's my attempt:

D = max_shadowbolt_damage + (SDbuffed*coef) * curse_multiplier * shadowpriest_multiplier * crit_multiplier * gem_multiplier * ISB_multiplier * Succubus_multiplier * T6_Bonus.

max_shadowbolt_damage = 603
SDbuffed = what we want to know
coef = 105.71% (shadow and flame)
curse_multiplier = 110% (no malediction here)
shadowpriest_multiplier = 105%
crit_multiplier = 200%
gem_multiplier = 103%
ISB_multiplier = 120%
Succubus_multiplier = 115%
T6_Bonus = 106%


10000 = (603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571)) * 1.10 * 1.05 * 2.00 * 1.03 * 1.20 * 1.15 * 1.06 | / 1.06
9433 = (603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571)) * 1.10 * 1.05 * 2.00 * 1.03 * 1.20 * 1.15 | / 1.15
8203 = (603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571)) * 1.10 * 1.05 * 2.00 * 1.03 * 1.20 | / 1.20
6836 = (603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571)) * 1.10 * 1.05 * 2.00 * 1.03 | / 1.03
6637 = (603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571)) * 1.10 * 1.05 * 2.00 | / 2.00
3318 = (603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571)) * 1.10 * 1.05 | / 1.05
3160 = (603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571)) * 1.10 | / 1.10
2873 = 603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571) | - 603
2270 = SDBuffed * 1.0571 | / 1.0571
2147 = SDBuffed

I must be doing something wrong since it seems just a tad too high :S probably some things are additive or there is a certain order?
#1565SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3tsuKii
Originally Posted by tusaki View Post
I have a question for all you theorycrafters who are better with math than me.

I've been trying to figure out how much +shadowdamage you must get (buffed) to see 10K shadowbolt crits assuming 0/21/40, 4 piece T6, chaotic meta gem. (against +3 boss)

Also, if you figure it out, could you also post the math? I've been wondering what I'm doing wrong. Here's my attempt:

D = max_shadowbolt_damage + (SDbuffed*coef) * curse_multiplier * shadowpriest_multiplier * crit_multiplier * gem_multiplier * ISB_multiplier * Succubus_multiplier * T6_Bonus.

max_shadowbolt_damage = 603
SDbuffed = what we want to know
coef = 105.71% (shadow and flame)
curse_multiplier = 110% (no malediction here)
shadowpriest_multiplier = 105%
crit_multiplier = 200%
gem_multiplier = 103%
ISB_multiplier = 120%
Succubus_multiplier = 115%
T6_Bonus = 106%


10000 = (603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571)) * 1.10 * 1.05 * 2.00 * 1.03 * 1.20 * 1.15 * 1.06 | / 1.06
9433 = (603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571)) * 1.10 * 1.05 * 2.00 * 1.03 * 1.20 * 1.15 | / 1.15
8203 = (603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571)) * 1.10 * 1.05 * 2.00 * 1.03 * 1.20 | / 1.20
6836 = (603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571)) * 1.10 * 1.05 * 2.00 * 1.03 | / 1.03
6637 = (603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571)) * 1.10 * 1.05 * 2.00 | / 2.00
3318 = (603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571)) * 1.10 * 1.05 | / 1.05
3160 = (603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571)) * 1.10 | / 1.10
2873 = 603 + (SDBuffed*1.0571) | - 603
2270 = SDBuffed * 1.0571 | / 1.0571
2147 = SDBuffed

I must be doing something wrong since it seems just a tad too high :S probably some things are additive or there is a certain order?
Seems you only add 5% for shadowpriest, should be 15%, 5% is just only misery?
#1566SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dakalro
From what I've calculated fast the LT change isn't that huge, just bad, like 30-50 dps, makes the difference between healer group and spriest group higher and will probably scale down with sunwell loot.

Very retarded way to nerf something, I'd rather it kept current scaling just make it a higher ratio of hp (20%?, Imp LT would bring it in line) or just increase the % more and do rest of the tuning once WotLK comes and gear gets reitemized (at this point I've gained ~15% mana from upgrades while getting ~25% more damage while fully buffed).

Just wish they'd explain the change and think it through a bit better, there certainly is plenty of time left on PTR to get it right and ideas from players that know exactly what's desired of the change would be a lot better than anything a dev that doesn't play would achieve.
#1567SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Spoonman
You can also up the curse modifier from 1.1 to 1.13 to allow for Malediction. Also I think you should possibly change crit modifier and gem modifier to a single modifier of 2.09, which I believe is how the CSD and Ruin actually stack. This seems to put the shadow damage required at 1811.
#1568SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Zakalwe
Originally Posted by tsuKii View Post
Seems you only add 5% for shadowpriest, should be 15%, 5% is just only misery?
Also, due to the way the gem is implemented, it actually gives a 4.5% buff when you have Ruin. Looks like the correct number is 1865 or so?
#1569SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dakalro
Originally Posted by Zakalwe View Post
Also, due to the way the gem is implemented, it actually gives a 4.5% buff when you have Ruin. Looks like the correct number is 1865 or so?
Yup, got 10k+ crits with ISB up and ring + Icon on, rare but fun
#1570SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Flamingcloud
The 2.4 end game set doesn't have anywhere near 600 crit rating.. Are you converting base, and the 8% crit from talents into crit rating?

Edit: Oh and spriests give 10% and 5% not 15%, 10% and 5% is better.

Last edited by Flamingcloud : 02/24/08 at 12:26 PM.
#1571SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Morwen
Originally Posted by tusaki View Post
crit_multiplier = 200%
gem_multiplier = 103%
CSD-Ruin crits are 209% instead of 2*1.03.

Edit: beaten badly, so I'll just add that the actual multiplier with Shadow Weaving and Malediction taken into account is
1.13 (CoS) * 1.05 (Misery) * 1.10 (Weaving) * 2.09 (crit) * 1.20 (ISB) * 1.15 (DS) * 1.06 (T6) = 3.99, that means buffed shadow damage at 1801 should be enough to make it a possibility.

Last edited by Morwen : 02/24/08 at 1:16 PM.
#1572SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by Morwen View Post
CSD-Ruin crits are 209% instead of 2*1.03.
Pretty sure I remember a patch notes fixing that.
#1573SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Roywyn
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
Pretty sure I remember a patch notes fixing that.
Um, I don't think so.

They fixed this and the effect of resilience on crit talents for the RED meta gem, the melee one.
After that, they made RED not affect spells.
And after that, they added the CSD with the mechanics of the old RED before it was patched.

Easy way to test? Cast Immolate until it crits, it does fixed damage. Check if it's 209% or less (206%/203%).
#1574SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Flamingcloud
Sure appears to be 209% although my immolate seemed to like to hit for different amounts abit (but the highest amount * 209% seemed to match the crit)
#1575SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Emolate
Originally Posted by hackmage View Post
I tried searching and I didn't see anything posted on a 40/21 spec. It's really popular with some of my guild's locks and one of the best geared locks on our server. I tried it and thought it was horrible, but I may not have had enough crit. to make it work. It goes down to SL and DK in demo and down to Ruin in destro. Has anyone seen this kind of spec. work, and what kind of stats do you need for it? And would it be better to just go classic 21/40?
I've never gone out of my way to stack +crit.

The 0/40/21 build is great for a couple of things:

* You sometimes need a lot less threat to stay alive. Having the Imp out guarantees you a spot 10 rows down from the Main Tank.
* Your raid group cries incessantly about needing an Improved Blood Pact and you're tired of hearing about it.
* When you can keep the Succubus alive, it's nice to have that percentage bump.
* When you are in need of resistance and a lot of health via Soul Link, Felhunter is available.
Having an Improved Imp will bump your spelldamage up about 300 points. That's pretty awesome, and the cheapest way to stack damage.

The Succubus is a great damage buff on top of the (less-than-Imp) damage bonus you get from having her active, but it is too difficult to keep her alive in many cases. Dragonhawk avatar in Zul'aman, for example. Any fight with AoE. You will not be able to get a Soul Link benefit off her except in very specific situations, because she can't take much of you getting hit.

With raid buffs my Imp has around 3400+ health and gives party members around 800 health.

I bounce back and forth between 0/40/21 and 0/21/40, depending on my tanks.

If for some horrible reason I need to have the Imp out in 0/21/40, I can still churn out around 1000 dps of Shadow Bolts and my gear is nothing special. The 0/40/21 build is the only reason I didn't claw my eyes out fighting Void Reaver, however.

As for "what stats do you need for it" questions, your best bet is to just put yours into the spreadsheet and model them yourself. You could even play around on Warcrafter and change your talent spec, gear, gems, and buffs to get a pretty good idea of what you could do with what you've already got, and what you should focus on first.

Unless your armory isn't your raiding gear --

I will say that the reason you found 0/40/21 horrible, and why you would find 0/21/40 even more horrible, is that you're wearing a bunch of PVP gear and have no spellhit.

PVP gear looks almost like the real thing, but it certainly doesn't work as well.

You're also not carrying nearly enough points in Suppression to compensate for your lack of gear.

You're doing 5/5 Shadow Embrace though, which at your gear level is one of the best things you can do for the raid, since your Shadow Bolts are going to miss too much to benefit from going into the other two trees. If you put points into Suppression and take them out of improved Curse of Agony you wouldn't have to re-cast Unstable Affliction and your dots, too.

In short -- stacking crit is probably the worst possible thing you could do at this point.

If that isn't what you show up to raids in, it would be helpful to have that available, or just run the numbers yourself in Warcrafter or the various spreadsheets (in the first post in this thread).

Last edited by Emolate : 02/24/08 at 3:12 PM.
#1576SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 frmorrison
The big issues with 40/21 is the Succy's shadow attack eats imp SB and she has low health so you can't run with Soul link much.


If imp SB is changed to only affect the Warlock that made the crit, that makes Fire a more attractive spec to me. I doubt imp SB changed will happen. Even if imp SB is changed to 15% (instead of 20), Shadow is better to me due to buffing raid dps.
#1577SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pidge
So, assuming Life Tap gives 16% mana back, INT would not only adds DPS by increasing crit, but also by increasing the return on Life Tap. My question is how much INT do you need to equal 1 Dam. I'm pretty sure the ratio is very crummy, but I was hoping for a definitive number to deflate the "stack more Int" argument for keeping this Life Tap nerf.
#1578SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
So, assuming Life Tap gives 16% mana back, INT would not only adds DPS by increasing crit, but also by increasing the return on Life Tap. My question is how much INT do you need to equal 1 Dam. I'm pretty sure the ratio is very crummy, but I was hoping for a definitive number to deflate the "stack more Int" argument for keeping this Life Tap nerf.
Well, 1 crit rating = about 1 damage, and 1 int adds about 1/4 of a crit rating. Even if you double the value, int offers a poor return.
#1579SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bolche
I have just updated my 2.0-beta2 spreadsheet to reflect the LT change.
With the default 0/21/40 build + T5 gear level I get :
2.3 LT :
1 int = 0.30 damage
2.4 LT :
1 int = 0.53 damage
#1580SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3TheSorcerer
I read the introduction post and searched the thread but asn't able to find what I as looking for. Are there numbers on how much chain chuggin mana potions as a destruction lock will increase your personal dps? I believe it should be something around 2 * 1.5 * personal DPS / pot cooldown, because a pot gives you close to twice Lifetap mana and thus allows you to skip two Lifetaps each pot cooldown. That means if your warlock has 1400 DPS you can calculate:

2 * 1.5 * 1400 / 120 = 4200 / 120 = 35 DPS Increase

Are my numbers correct? Wouldn't it make sense to mention that in the inital post (there's nothing on chain chugging mana potions as a destruction lock there at all).
#1581SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by TheSorcerer View Post
I read the introduction post and searched the thread but asn't able to find what I as looking for. Are there numbers on how much chain chuggin mana potions as a destruction lock will increase your personal dps? I believe it should be something around 2 * 1.5 * personal DPS / pot cooldown, because a pot gives you close to twice Lifetap mana and thus allows you to skip two Lifetaps each pot cooldown. That means if your warlock has 1400 DPS you can calculate:

2 * 1.5 * 1400 / 120 = 4200 / 120 = 35 DPS Increase

Are my numbers correct? Wouldn't it make sense to mention that in the inital post (there's nothing on chain chugging mana potions as a destruction lock there at all).
That is more or less correct, although this is best case scenario. Most fights require you to move, and those are ideal for sneaking in a Life Tap. It works the other way around, too. If you end up having to LT, you have 1.5 seconds to reposition.
#1582SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Chimera
Originally Posted by TheSorcerer View Post
Are my numbers correct? Wouldn't it make sense to mention that in the inital post (there's nothing on chain chugging mana potions as a destruction lock there at all).
Since there are so many little tweaks like this that can be done, I think it makes more sense to (as the OP does already) link to the DPS spreadsheet. People can use that to tweak with all kinds of setups if they like. For example for mana potions, you just add 100 MP5 to the sheet, and you get the DPS bonus from chaining mana pots.

A comprehensive list of every question that might ever be asked drowns out the important ones. In my opinion the OP does a great job of giving the broad strokes and covering the important questions that might be non-obvious to a beginning warlock raider. It also provides links to other resources that can answer more specific questions, for example the link to leulier's spreadsheet to answer the question "how much DPS do I gain by spamming mana potions?"

I think the more apt question, however, should be "do I gain more DPS by spamming mana potions or destruction potions?" For me the answer is that mana potions are better than destruction potions on any fight longer than two and a half minutes, assuming the fight doesn't have down time where I can lifetap "for free." I encourage you to check the spreadsheet to find out what the answer is for your particular gear set.
#1583SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3roksharoo
hi guys i wanted to ask a few qustions:

1.where did u read about the upcoming ISB nerf?
2.if fire becomes raideble will the spellfire set be any good?
#1584SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Fizwidget
1. The ISB change is a rumor based on fake patch notes.

However the prevalence of lock/spriest 2s teams in arena and the PvP-centric LT nerf we are discussing lends credence to the idea of another drastic PVE nerf for PvP balance. Its just grist for the mill, as they say.

2. Affliction still shines at T4 (where you'll have FSW) and loses ground once ridiculous amounts of hit, crit and haste start showing up on drops; i.e. late T5 and most of T6/Sunwell. But it is slightly *more* viable, if you have your heart set on the flaming snake of doom. The real question is the converse: Will fire be viable at T4 with Spellfire? Considering the lack of hit and crit on the three peices, and the fact that the spellfire belt locks you out of [Girdle of Ruination] or the 2.4-badge-reward [Belt of Blasting], I'm going to give a preliminary no, but its a bit early to call.

Edit: Item Tags

Last edited by Fizwidget : 02/25/08 at 10:57 AM.
#1585SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Spoonman
Originally Posted by Fizwidget View Post
1. The ISB change is a rumor based on fake patch notes.

However the prevalence of lock/spriest 2s teams in arena and the PvP-centric LT nerf we are discussing lends credence to the idea of another drastic PVE nerf for PvP balance. Its just grist for the mill, as they say.

2. Affliction still shines at T4 (where you'll have FSW) and loses ground once ridiculous amounts of hit, crit and haste start showing up on drops; i.e. late T5 and most of T6/Sunwell. But it is slightly *more* viable, if you have your heart set on the flaming snake of doom. The real question is the converse: Will fire be viable at T4 with Spellfire? Considering the lack of hit and crit on the three peices, and the fact that the spellfire belt locks you out of Girdle of Ruination or the 2.4-badge-reward Belt of Blasting, I'm going to give a preliminary no, but its a bit early to call.
Eh? All three pieces of Spellfire have crit on. The fact that none have any hit on is the main problem, but you can always socket for it.
#1586SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Fizwidget
I stand corrected. I suppose the [Belt of Blasting] vs. the Spellfire set bonus is where the meat is here. Moreso with the lifetap change.
#1587SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3roksharoo
One more thing about the leo tanking... I haven't yet to get there but i was wandering if the spellstone can remove the staking of the debuff he dose on you? I am sorry if this is stupid its just something that cross my mind
#1588SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Emolate
Originally Posted by Kyth View Post
Despite the fire talents in the destruction tree, I agree with you. Not having a fire-damage curse or any other dots beyond immolate feels exceedingly unwarlocky.

The lack of a fire-based curse in particular rubs me the wrong way for some reason (despite the fact that our current curse design means I rarely get to cast CoD.)
What, Curse of Elements doesn't affect fire now?

Affliction is the DoT tree. If you're in deep destruction, you're also in Demonology. Why would you be casting DoTs at that level of gear/progression? If I cast even just Corruption on Void Reaver I lose DPS and gain too much threat.
#1589SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Quizart
Originally Posted by roksharoo View Post
One more thing about the leo tanking... I haven't yet to get there but i was wandering if the spellstone can remove the staking of the debuff he dose on you? I am sorry if this is stupid its just something that cross my mind
No, spellstones only work on things regular dispel magic would work on.

The only way to get rid of the debuffs is to either die, or to have a paladin divine intervention on you (which is what we use so we don't have to stop dps waiting for my debuffs to wear off.)

Last edited by Quizart : 02/27/08 at 9:53 AM.
#1590SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Eph
Originally Posted by Emolate View Post
What, Curse of Elements doesn't affect fire now?
I believe she meant something like a Curse of Fiery Agony or Curse of Fiery Doom. Which would be cast in a destruction spec if the COS/R/E was done by other locks.
#1591SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Tacitus
Eyonix confirmed that the Life Tap change was intetional at 16%
WoW Forums -> Imp Lifetap Changed??

I think I'll go cry in a corner now.



EDIT:

OMFG, IT WAS A ****ING PVP NERF:
Originally Posted by Eyonix

Quite honestly, we wanted warlocks to take a larger hit to their hit points when lifetapping in PvP. While in PvP, this means they will take a bigger hit to their health, in PvE it will have smaller impact (and actually can be gamed for an improvement via higher intelligence and lower stamina).

Last edited by Tacitus : 02/25/08 at 2:05 PM.
#1592SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Turbo Moses
"Quite honestly, we wanted warlocks to take a larger hit to their hit points when lifetapping in PvP. While in PvP, this means they will take a bigger hit to their health, in PvE it will have smaller impact (and actually can be gamed for an improvement via higher intelligence and lower stamina)."


Because we all know how prominent intellect is on our *PVE* set pieces. As well as talents, and buffs etc.
#1593SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Fizwidget
Demonic Embrace now increases the health cost of lifetap by 3/6/9/12/15% (not exactly, but close)

Fel Stamina too. I don't know if I'm going to skip these talents in 2.4, but it illustrates they built warlocks to be a high-stam class that cares little for the size of their mana pool *because* they can convert health to mana. This change is a pretty significant detour from that vision. Stacking stam only requires us to be healed more, making us a healing burden or requiring a sPriest with VE. Now, the more int you have and the less stam over the requirements of the fight, the better you are. This is totally counter-intuitive. Stam is now bad?

There has to be a better way to accomplish this PvP fix, without killing my PvE lifetaps. As a warlock my health is way above my mana, thats the way the gear was built. We don't gem for stam (except to activate CSD with Glowing purples) or int, so "Gaming" this isn't really an "advantage".
#1594SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3scottemad123
so how is this going to effecting lock tanking gear. Do they plan on changing some itemization around or tweaking fights? I love having around 7.5k mana in my tank gear and only getting 16% of that back when I'll have 13k health and dropping 16% of that per tap. Nice job blizz
#1595SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wednesday
Originally Posted by Fizwidget View Post
Stam is now bad?
Stam isn't bad, stacking stam and forgetting int is. You already lose more health per life-tap the more spell damage you get, so it's not like it's anything new to have a higher healing burden as you gear up. The change seems to be in line with the increased emphasis on int for PvE, given how regen is changing to take int into account.
#1596SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Fizwidget
On any fight where you lifetap 7 or more times (100/16 = 6.25) you now have net negative HP from stacking STA. Fort is now a debuff for 'locks. As well as the above-mentioned talents.

Stam = bad
#1597SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wednesday
Originally Posted by Fizwidget View Post
On any fight where you lifetap 7 or more times (100/16 = 6.25) you now have net negative HP from stacking STA. Fort is now a debuff for 'locks. As well as the above-mentioned talents.

Stam = bad
Not quite. If you lifetap once with fort once without fort, you'll still end up with more hp remaining after the tap if you have fort. You just lose more health from a tap the more health you have to lose.

I agree that the new mechanic is wonky at best, but it's not like you're going to want to raid with 6k hp.
#1598SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pidge
So I am correct in assuming that being "gamed" for Int is a DPS loss over other gems, like spell damage.

And I agree, no Warlock is going to want to de-stack Stamina. But it is the only spell/ability that actively gets worse the more you increase a stat.

You know what I want to see in a patch note?

"Warlocks can no longer enter Battlegrounds or Arenas."
#1599SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tacitus
Originally Posted by Wednesday View Post
Not quite. If you lifetap once with fort once without fort, you'll still end up with more hp remaining after the tap if you have fort. You just lose more health from a tap the more health you have to lose.

I agree that the new mechanic is wonky at best, but it's not like you're going to want to raid with 6k hp.
I'm not entirely sure if I'm getting your point, but the only fight where I have tapped once is Shade of Akama after Akama begins to tank it (provided that I was at or near full mana).
#1600SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Turbo Moses
Originally Posted by Wednesday View Post
Not quite. If you lifetap once with fort once without fort, you'll still end up with more hp remaining after the tap if you have fort. You just lose more health from a tap the more health you have to lose.

I agree that the new mechanic is wonky at best, but it's not like you're going to want to raid with 6k hp.
Name one PvE encounter where you're only going to find yourself tapping once. It's just frustrating also because the only way to increase the amount we get from life tap is based off of int, which was just above spirit in stats warlocks looked for, and not spell damage anymore. If Life tap took away more HP than Mana, that'd be fine too, because HP is so much easier to gain back than mana, it SHOULD cost us more HP than mana returned. As long as it wasn't reversing our itemization. That is why the warlock community has completely exploded, this transcends the majority of nerfs in the game. Not saying it's the most crippling nerf in the game, in fact, in it's current state, it's not really that crippling at all, warlocks without healers don't tap like mad in PvP anyway, so the classes we still eat, we'll still eat, and the classes we still get destroyed by, will still destroy us. It doesn't accomplish much but destroy our itemization.

EDIT: Tacitus, in my first sentence, I was gonna add (Except Akama), but decided against it because I know I find myself tapping more than once...haha.
#1601SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Bandoer
Stam is a detrimental stat after you have enough to survive. Currently extra stam is merely useless or superfluous.

Last edited by Bandoer : 02/25/08 at 4:40 PM.
#1602SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wednesday
Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
I'm not entirely sure if I'm getting your point, but the only fight where I have tapped once is Shade of Akama after Akama begins to tank it (provided that I was at or near full mana).
It doesn't matter how many times you lifetap. Say you lifetap three times, it takes away 45% of your health. 55% of 12k hp is more than 55% of 10k hp. Yes, you lose more hp to lifetap as you gain stamina, but it's not like you're in a worse position with 55% of 12k hp vs. 55% of 10k.
#1603SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Fizwidget
The key is 7 or more times (which is pretty low for a 7-10 min fight) After 7 times, you've tapped your entire health pool once. At that point you no longer have a net positive effect from stamina.

I'm having trouble trying to illustrate the effect.

The amount of health lost goes up for every point in stamina. Your total health pool will be tapped away several times in a fight, if you've tapped your entire health bar, your maximum health is moot. Much like your maximum mana was almost moot because you could lifetap it back at a fixed rate. So any stamina at all above the minimum requirements for a particular fight is bad. Warlock gear stacks absurdly high amounts of stam where spirit may have lived in another class' set. This is an extremely frustrating change.
#1604SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morwen
You can always be hit by more randomly targeted damage than you anticipated, so I don't buy the argument that anything over the minimum is superfluous in a real fight. Stamina will still be important for reasons other than life tap.
#1605SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wednesday
Originally Posted by Fizwidget View Post
The key is 7 or more times (which is pretty low for a 7-10 min fight) After 7 times, you've tapped your entire health pool once. At that point you no longer have a net positive effect from stamina.

I'm having trouble trying to illustrate the effect.

The amount of health lost goes up for every point in stamina. Your total health pool will be tapped away several times in a fight, if you've tapped your entire health bar, your maximum health is moot. Much like your maximum mana was almost moot because you could lifetap it back at a fixed rate. So any stamina at all above the minimum requirements for a particular fight is bad. Warlock gear stacks absurdly high amounts of stam where spirit may have lived in another class' set. This is an extremely frustrating change.
Yes, the major problem with this change is the way current lock gear is itemized. Hopefully this will be addressed should the change go live.
#1606SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Quizart
While I'm certainly part of the QQ parade on the WoW forums for other reasons on this change, honestly it barely affects pve raiding. I can't remember the last time I wasn't over-healed for a lifetap, healers probably won't notice the difference.

It's in pvp and especially solo/5-man pve that this is really rediculous. But this is a PVE Raiding compendium, can save it for another topic.

I'm more off-set pieces than tier 4, and my hp/mana are almost exactly equal raid-buffed, so I won't personally notice much of a difference anyway.

Quizart

Last edited by Quizart : 02/25/08 at 5:04 PM.
#1607SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Tacitus
Originally Posted by Turbo Moses View Post
EDIT: Tacitus, in my first sentence, I was gonna add (Except Akama), but decided against it because I know I find myself tapping more than once...haha.

You know what they say... great minds think alike :p
#1608SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Bandoer View Post
Stam is a detrimental stat after you have enough to survive. Currently extra stam is merely useless or superfluous.
There wasn't a DPS-increase from stam before. If the change goes in there won't be a DPS-decrease from stam. I don't see much of a change there. Given that, I'd rather have more HPs to survive raid damage. The important part is what %of mana they finally settle on, since that determines if it will be nerfing our mana gained per life tap.
#1609SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Spoonman
Originally Posted by Quizart View Post
While I'm certainly part of the QQ parade on the WoW forums for other reasons on this change, honestly it barely affects pve raiding. I can't remember the last time I wasn't over-healed for a lifetap, healers probably won't notice the difference.
This mostly sums up my sentiments - having it cost more health is not a huge issue. The way that LT no longer scales with spell damage is incredibly irritating though, dropping from 2k return as affliction to 1.6k and 1.6k to 1.3k as destro means I'll have to tap much more, decreasing my dps and drawing a greater frequency of heals, as well as requiring more healing per tap. I'm chaining mana pots on most encounters as it is and still end tapping in order to be able to cast, this change will just make it worse. :<

Edit; it will also make farming as destro a lot less fun - currently I sac my voidwalker and run around, using LT to regen mana and the void buff + death coil + soul leech to regen that health deficit.
#1610SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Quizart
Originally Posted by Spoonman View Post
This mostly sums up my sentiments - having it cost more health is not a huge issue. The way that LT no longer scales with spell damage is incredibly irritating though, dropping from 2k return as affliction to 1.6k and 1.6k to 1.3k as destro means I'll have to tap much more, decreasing my dps and drawing a greater frequency of heals, as well as requiring more healing per tap. I'm chaining mana pots on most encounters as it is and still end tapping in order to be able to cast, this change will just make it worse. :<
It's a bit of a nerf yeah, most warlocks will be getting less mana back then they were before for more health cost - but it isn't a huge nerf for pve raiding, one that I can deal with, shouldn't have to tap that much more often. Although I'll probably be increasing my Super Rejuv Pot chugging ratio.

Now if self-only ISB goes through on the other hand...

Quizart
#1611SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Tacitus
This is offtopic, but Quizart, will you please stop signing your posts, it's annoying, not needed since we can see your name on the left side and as a bonus
Originally Posted by Boethius
#
# If you "sign" your posts, you will be mocked. You have a profile in which you can and should put all relevant information such that it already appears next to every post. Personally I think the mockery itself and the herd mentality that gives rise to it are as stupid as the thing being mocked, but nevertheless, you don't want to type your name or your initials or some fancy symbol at the bottom of every post. People here will probably ignore what you posted and just make fun of you. It's like being a fat kid.
#1612SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Madlax
Well, look at some numbers:
chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta (doesn´t have all SW gear yet)
10205 mana with 518 int
+40 arcane intellect
+18 imp motw
+10% bok
=> 1734 extra mana

11939 mana *1.03 from Fel Intellect
=> 12297 total mana

12297*0.15 = 1844 LT

With the old values:
1200 => 1540
1300 => 1620
1400 => 1700
1500 => 1780
1600 => 1860
1700 => 1940

Honestly, that might be a slight "mid-game-PvE-nerf" but it doesn´t matter at all in "end-game-PvE".
#1613SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Flamingcloud
Shhh if we get it turned into 20% we can have a dps buff =p
#1614SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Idk
Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
This is offtopic, but Quizart, will you please stop signing your posts, it's annoying, not needed since we can see your name on the left side and as a bonus
This is too funny coming from a person with an abnormally large and offtopic signature. Fortunately we can at least turn those off..
#1615SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Don't forget as a Gnome with Sunwell gear you will have another 600 mana, so another 90 mana in your Taps with top gear.

The nerf still is bad, because until you get the stamina weaker Sunwell gear, your Life Taps aren't going to be as good.


Another change with this is you don't want 150 HP to chest anymore, more like 6mp5 or 6 to all stats.
#1616SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Devourment
Honestly I hadn't seen this as anything short of a buff to warlock raiding in general. As it stands currently, I lifetap for ~1670 mana. Full raid buffed, as described above I sit at approximately 12000. 26% of maximum mana (as the notes say lifetap will now restore) of 12000 is over 3000, so I cannot for the life of me see this as an end-game pve nerf. Basically it is a double lifetap. This is a pvp nerf, as all other nerfs/buffs have been in recent and upcoming patches...except this one seems to positively affect pve raiding, for once.
#1617SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3LockApologist
Originally Posted by Devourment View Post
Honestly I hadn't seen this as anything short of a buff to warlock raiding in general. As it stands currently, I lifetap for ~1670 mana. Full raid buffed, as described above I sit at approximately 12000. 26% of maximum mana (as the notes say lifetap will now restore) of 12000 is over 3000, so I cannot for the life of me see this as an end-game pve nerf. Basically it is a double lifetap. This is a pvp nerf, as all other nerfs/buffs have been in recent and upcoming patches...except this one seems to positively affect pve raiding, for once.
26% is a typo. It's 15/18% without/with talents. so, it's more than likely a nerf for the majority of locks. But, if you really do have 12000 mp (which doesn't look likely, as you have 8700 in armory. 12k hp, sure. mp, no), it will probably be a buff.
#1618SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Devourment
How could they have a typo that terribad? Hahaha wow. And yeah I guess I never really paid attention to my mana in raids (for the reason explained by a previous post) which is most likely closer to 10.5k. Basically my mana returned will be about the same as it is now, and this makes intellect a much more appealing stat.
#1619SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Turbo Moses
For all intents and purposes though, from a raiding perspective, it's cool to have int as a more desirable stat. That said, it'd be cooler if our talents and gear reflected that. The crit and extra mana and mana regen from int makes it quite a bit more desirable...but it's in a shitty state in it's current form. Blah.

Also, 1 is close to 2, and 5 is close to 6, so I guess I could see someone pulling a 26 instead of 15.
#1620SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nerull
I have calculated for myself if I would gain mana or lose with the new lifetap.
It came down to a difference of maybe 50 mana in favor of the new life tap - fully raidbuffed.
When playing solo then the new lifetap is a bit worse than the current one I have.

For reference, my gear currently consists of mostly tier 6 level gear and some items from ZA / S3 dagger ( Curse archimonde.... ) .

What im wondering is if people are considering changing gear / enchants to work around this in pve.

Examples :

Ring of captured storms , Translucent Spellthread Necklace are becoming nono's ? ( Loop of Cursed Bones as neck alternative, mana attuned band as ring alternative ? ) . Basicly : Are you considering changing out statless items for alternatives with slightly less damage ( if any ) , but more stats to buff your tapping ?

+6 all stats seems to be the best investment as chest enchant now as I can see it, +100 mana doesnt seem to be worth 10 mana for 90 hp, 6 mana per 5 gives less mana ( at least for me ) :

1760 mana per lifetap
Lifetap needed once per : 1760 / 399 * 2,4 = 10,6 seconds to sustain mana consumption assuming SB spam only.
Mana gained per lifetap from +6 all stats enchant : 90 * 1,03 * 1,10 * 0,15 = 15,3 mana
In a complete cycle of 12 seconds ( 10,6 + 1,44 from lifetap ) gain from +6 stats = 15,3
From 6 mana per 5 you gain 14,4 mana per 12 seconds

The difference is fairly small, but +6 all stats also gives stamina, plus if you use a pet , it scales with it.
#1621SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3SchLing
The Lifetap change seems to be very good from a raid point of view, and it's pretty clear that Blizzard want int to mean something for warlocks. Even though most of the raiding warlocks out there are currently not really geared for the change I don't think it will take long before most people are geared for the change. Taking a look at the new Tier 6 pieces you can allready see that they have more int than stamina, and I belive that we will see more of that in the future. With this change you could potensially gain more mana back than life sacrificed without any talents. I ran the numbers though Warlock DPS Spreadsheet and from that is was pretty clear that int would now acutally give you quite a lot of DPS increase, and more substained DPS. (From just upping my unbuffed mana pool from 9k to 10k I acutally gained 30DPS on the spreadsheet.)

The Health Talents like Demonic Embrace will still be usefull because you will not have to stack up on Health gear, but you become free to get more int on it instead. In addition 16% of 1000HP is 840, while 16% of 2000HP is 1680. So even if feel that getting more stamina will not make each Lifetap as effective it will still leave you with a bigger HP pool, making you more likely to survive random damage.
#1622SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3TheSorcerer
Originally Posted by Chimera View Post
A comprehensive list of every question that might ever be asked drowns out the important ones. In my opinion the OP does a great job of giving the broad strokes and covering the important questions that might be non-obvious to a beginning warlock raider. It also provides links to other resources that can answer more specific questions, for example the link to leulier's spreadsheet to answer the question "how much DPS do I gain by spamming mana potions?"
However, I still think the OP should at least mention that a way to increase your dps is to chain chug manapotions, I believe that is a non obvious fact to a beginning warlock raider. If you search the OP for "potion" the only references you fin are, that you should bring potions to your raid (a clearly non-obvious fact) and should use health potions if you're low on hp (I believe a lot more warlocks would die if this wasn't mentioned). I hope you realize I am beeing a little bit sarcastic. I do not want to discredit the OP, but I really believe that it should mention chain chugging manapotions is a way to increase your dps and you can verify it by increasing your mp5 by 100 on the spreadsheet.

I think the more apt question, however, should be "do I gain more DPS by spamming mana potions or destruction potions?" For me the answer is that mana potions are better than destruction potions on any fight longer than two and a half minutes, assuming the fight doesn't have down time where I can lifetap "for free." I encourage you to check the spreadsheet to find out what the answer is for your particular gear set.
I was asking not to improve my own dps, but was looking for some numbers to convince my warlocks to do so. Currently if I ask them "Are you chain chuggin manapotions?" their answer is "Why should I, I have lifetap!". And we currently are in Tier 6 content with only Illidan left for completition. Obviously not only entry level warlocks do not recognize the dps gain from chain chugging manapotions. I still believe this should be mentioned in the OP.

Thank you.
#1623SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Kyth
Originally Posted by Emolate View Post
What, Curse of Elements doesn't affect fire now?

Affliction is the DoT tree. If you're in deep destruction, you're also in Demonology. Why would you be casting DoTs at that level of gear/progression? If I cast even just Corruption on Void Reaver I lose DPS and gain too much threat.
Damage-based curse. CoE isn't a fire curse, it's a utility curse -- my explicit example was "like CoD/CoA" to be clear.

It was a philosophical point :p, I know how to play my class.

What I said is I don't feel like fire is set up to be a 'warlock' element despite what the talent points say because all but two of our spells are school-based in shadow.


Call it the misguided dreams of an affliction warlock trapped in a destruction body, I dunno.

Last edited by Kyth : 02/26/08 at 6:40 AM.
#1624SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
dakalro
Originally Posted by TheSorcerer View Post
However, I still think the OP should at least mention that a way to increase your dps is to chain chug manapotions, I believe that is a non obvious fact to a beginning warlock raider. If you search the OP for "potion" the only references you fin are, that you should bring potions to your raid (a clearly non-obvious fact) and should use health potions if you're low on hp (I believe a lot more warlocks would die if this wasn't mentioned). I hope you realize I am beeing a little bit sarcastic. I do not want to discredit the OP, but I really believe that it should mention chain chugging manapotions is a way to increase your dps and you can verify it by increasing your mp5 by 100 on the spreadsheet.



I was asking not to improve my own dps, but was looking for some numbers to convince my warlocks to do so. Currently if I ask them "Are you chain chuggin manapotions?" their answer is "Why should I, I have lifetap!". And we currently are in Tier 6 content with only Illidan left for completition. Obviously not only entry level warlocks do not recognize the dps gain from chain chugging manapotions. I still believe this should be mentioned in the OP.

Thank you.
Hmm, don't think anyone serious about their dps on encounters where it matters would simply rely on lifetap, 100 mp5 is alot no matter how you put it. Nobody mentions it because it's common sense for a class going on -800mp5 usage (yes, Cataclysm is a very good talent ).

As for destro pots vs mana pots, same thing, clear winner in mana simply because we go through mana like candy and we don't dps while LTing. And while movement sometimes allows us to Life Tap it's not always safe/sane to do so because most of the time you move out of death's way and moving just to LT is kind of moot point.
If there's no death around just a safer place to go, yes, you might want to move while LT gcd is on because you'll have to move anyway at some point. So majority of times I move during LT not LT during movement.

Originally Posted by Nerull View Post
I have calculated for myself if I would gain mana or lose with the new lifetap.
It came down to a difference of maybe 50 mana in favor of the new life tap - fully raidbuffed.
When playing solo then the new lifetap is a bit worse than the current one I have.
I have 10500 mana fully buffed, losing 300 mana with the change, fully raid buffed. You will get 1680 mana fully raid buffed from new LT, you're still losing mana, about 150-200 I'd say. Only ones that won't lose mana from LT with this are gnomes in t6 gear that don't use statless items, kinda specific don't you think? It's 15% not 16% at this point.

And again, the fact that LT won't scale anymore until WotLK is the bad part, not the small nerf. Anyone that played a warlock pre-TBC will still remember the fun that was 500 mana/LT that always stayed constant.
And if TBC is any indication int scaling between first tier and last tier is small, a lot smaller than +dmg scaling.
So we'll yet again start powerfull and while most will upgrade, our LT will stay almost constant providing an ever increasing dps barrier that will keep our dps from scaling enough, that's my nightmare that while I haven't lived to see in Naxx (Pwerk 1st kill was with 5 locks chaining Major Rejuv Pots) I've heard horror stories about.

While increasing % would fix it for now it's not enough if they'll keep the same itemization in next expansion or even the same int scaling. I'd pretty much be in favor of 2 ranks, one 15-16% or w/e they want and one (Rank 2, at 60 or so) with exact same formula for mana gain as now just scaled up health cost according to how much hp/mana you have, as in allow low levels to still LT, prevent PvPers from downscaling under 15% hp or so, let PvE-ers keep their scaling.

Or, for another option,
mana_return= %of_base_mana_(to equal 570 atm) + 0.8 * max(damage_bonuses)
hp_cost = max_hp/max_mana * mana_return
And you only need 1 rank this way and scale it vs +dmg. Of course if they do change itemization of stats to scale the same way as dmg does (about 40-60% or more from T4 to T6?) without impacting other stats then sure, go ahead and change LT if they can provide us with the gear.

Last edited by dakalro : 02/26/08 at 9:12 AM.
#1625SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nerull
Hmm I stand corrected about the raidbuffed mana tap now vs 2.4, it seems that you will need 13k+ to get anywhere near the current lifetaps. A weird change considering this was suppose to be a nerf for pvp.

to make up for the 200 mana you would need to get 20% haste rating, so thats not really likely to happen.

Drat, everytime I get excited about getting even a minor buff, it turns out to be a nerf anyway for warlocks
#1626SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Chimera
Perhaps a mention of how best to use your 2 min potion cooldown does belong in the OP after all.
Originally Posted by dakalro View Post
As for destro pots vs mana pots, same thing, clear winner in mana simply because we go through mana like candy and we don't dps while LTing. And while movement sometimes allows us to Life Tap it's not always safe/sane to do so because most of the time you move out of death's way and moving just to LT is kind of moot point.
This is a good point. A nice example of a fight where you could lifetap because you're forced to move a lot, but where it's probably wiser not to, would be illidari council. That fight will force you to move relatively frequently, but you're always taking damgae when it forces a move, making lifetap dangerous.

However, fights like Supremus, Lurker, Al'ar, Voidreaver, Illidan, and Kael'thas, provide multiple opportunities to safely life tap, where you wouldn't be able to be DPSing the boss anyway.

When we were learning Illidan I think the only time I used mana pots was in phase 2. In phase 1 I would use a destro pot, then lifetap to full in the transition between phase 1 and phase 2. In phase 3 onward, I would lifetap immediately following the first fire barage while running to a safe distance, and use destro pots in his humanoid phase (or in phase 5 use destro pots when he goes into a trap).

"Mana pot spam is best," works for stand and burn fights, but on more interesting execution fights you need to think about how the fight is going to play out, and pick the potion scheme that fits best with that particular fight. The only T6 fight where I consider mana pot spam mandatory is Kaz'rogal.
#1627SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3LockApologist
Originally Posted by dakalro View Post
Or, for another option,
mana_return= %of_base_mana_(to equal 570 atm) + 0.8 * max(damage_bonuses)
hp_cost = max_hp/max_mana * mana_return
And you only need 1 rank this way and scale it vs +dmg. Of course if they do change itemization of stats to scale the same way as dmg does (about 40-60% or more from T4 to T6?) without impacting other stats then sure, go ahead and change LT if they can provide us with the gear.
This change makes perfect sense to me. Slight annoyance for pve, nerf for pvp, while maintaining scaling and current regen rates.
#1628SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rochan
Originally Posted by Chimera View Post
Perhaps a mention of how best to use your 2 min potion cooldown does belong in the OP after all.This is a good point. A nice example of a fight where you could lifetap because you're forced to move a lot, but where it's probably wiser not to, would be illidari council. That fight will force you to move relatively frequently, but you're always taking damgae when it forces a move, making lifetap dangerous.

However, fights like Supremus, Lurker, Al'ar, Voidreaver, Illidan, and Kael'thas, provide multiple opportunities to safely life tap, where you wouldn't be able to be DPSing the boss anyway.

When we were learning Illidan I think the only time I used mana pots was in phase 2. In phase 1 I would use a destro pot, then lifetap to full in the transition between phase 1 and phase 2. In phase 3 onward, I would lifetap immediately following the first fire barage while running to a safe distance, and use destro pots in his humanoid phase (or in phase 5 use destro pots when he goes into a trap).

"Mana pot spam is best," works for stand and burn fights, but on more interesting execution fights you need to think about how the fight is going to play out, and pick the potion scheme that fits best with that particular fight. The only T6 fight where I consider mana pot spam mandatory is Kaz'rogal.
Kaz'rogal...why? I would be careful here about misleading new warlocks into thinking potting is mandatory and wasting gold. In almost all fights you can lifetap without losing damage. The bonus you gain from mana potting is so small compared to the cost. The only fight I'd consider it on would be Brutallus.

Also, why on Earth would you use pots in Illidan phase 1/2, it's not a dps race at all.
#1629SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bogeywoman
Another thing to ponder is that in the expansion, stamina went up on gear drastically more than int did. I now have 2x the hit points of an old-WoW main tank, buffed, in my survival gear, but I only have 1.4x or so the mana.

So in WotLK, given current gear and trending levels, raiding warlocks will have around 20k hp, and maybe 12k mana, and stam set locks will have 25-28k hp and 10k mana. A lifetap for that latter guy will hit him for 4200 damage and return 1500 mana.
#1630SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
Kaz'rogal...why? I would be careful here about misleading new warlocks into thinking potting is mandatory and wasting gold. In almost all fights you can lifetap without losing damage. The bonus you gain from mana potting is so small compared to the cost. The only fight I'd consider it on would be Brutallus.

Also, why on Earth would you use pots in Illidan phase 1/2, it's not a dps race at all.
Most players have more gold than they know what to do with, or are capable of acquiring more gold than they know what to do with.

I wouldn't say its mandatory to kill the boss, if that's all you want to do. But if you want to push your max dps you should be chain potting something or another.
#1631SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Roywyn
Originally Posted by Nerull View Post
Hmm I stand corrected about the raidbuffed mana tap now vs 2.4, it seems that you will need 13k+ to get anywhere near the current lifetaps. A weird change considering this was suppose to be a nerf for pvp.

to make up for the 200 mana you would need to get 20% haste rating, so thats not really likely to happen.
With sunwell gear, you'll get over 20% unavoidable haste via best-in-slot gear. Around 22/23% for mages, it depends a bit for you class specific 4T6.

So, you'll get there again, eventually.


[E]: Hm, then 18%, still close to 20%! Realised I was counting tailoring robes, and some items are sidegrades with haste.


[Edit]: The gnome intellect is a multiplier that applies to your intellect. The intellect of a gnome mage with Blessing of Kings and the +15% intellect arcance talent is (base_int + gear_int) * (1.05 gnome) * (1.1 BoK) * (1.15 talent). This has been tested and verified by me and others.

Last edited by Roywyn : 02/26/08 at 6:34 PM.
#1632SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Murdoch
Unless I'm mistaken the Gnomish bonus to Int (+5%) only applies to your base Int, not total. For me this is approximately 300 more mana, not the 600 some are referencing. So it's not as big a difference as you think.
#1633SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Chimera
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
Kaz'rogal...why? I would be careful here about misleading new warlocks into thinking potting is mandatory and wasting gold. In almost all fights you can lifetap without losing damage. The bonus you gain from mana potting is so small compared to the cost. The only fight I'd consider it on would be Brutallus.

Also, why on Earth would you use pots in Illidan phase 1/2, it's not a dps race at all.
I appologize if I was not sufficiently specific, I said "while learning." I don't use mana pots or destro pots on most farm content unless I'm trying to set a record of some kind. (By the way, exactly when on Kaz'rogal can you supposedly life tap without losing damage?)

That said, Illidan phase 2 is definitely a DPS race. The faster you get out of that phase, the better.

I agree that so far in sunwell Brutallus is definitely a mana potion spam fight. I also used them on Kalecgos, although that's mostly just because I copied 20 injectors to test and probably won't be able to use them all up before they take it down. There's a lot of AoE damage flying around on that fight so using mana pots is pretty reasonable, even though there are repositioning times where you could lifetap.

It's not like mana potions really cost anything, if you're not using your potion timer for something else, you might as well be using them.
#1634SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by Roywyn View Post
With sunwell gear, you'll get over 20% unavoidable haste via best-in-slot gear. Around 22/23% for mages, it depends a bit for you class specific 4T6.

So, you'll get there again, eventually.
My calculation for best in slot stats is currently 1570dmg 31.8%crit max hit 18.5%haste.(That is 4pc bonus using helm)

If there is trinkets/neck/cloak to be had somewhere the stats will most likely increase
#1635SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Fizwidget
So they're going back to the drawing board on the LT changes. Hopefully this was in response to the negative scaling and they will address this with whatever new PvP nerf they are coming up with. Re-itemizing every piece of lock raiding gear and mucking about with several of our talents obviously didn't look attractive.

However, I do remember saying something like "They'll never revamp every other piece of T5 and T6 just to balance FSW" after the Frozen Shadoweave nerf hit the PTR, and was wholeheartedly rejected by the community.

https://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/t...ageNo=145#2885

Last edited by Fizwidget : 02/26/08 at 2:29 PM.
#1636SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3tedv
Originally Posted by Murdoch View Post
Unless I'm mistaken the Gnomish bonus to Int (+5%) only applies to your base Int, not total. For me this is approximately 300 more mana, not the 600 some are referencing. So it's not as big a difference as you think.
I'd find that surprising, since the human spirit bonus (+10% Spirit) and tauren health bonus (+5% stamina) are both to overall stats, not base stats.
#1637SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Flamingcloud
lol I like how we create a 145 page post about a 2-3% dps nerf in a matter of days.. Makes me feel that they could never in a million years sneak in a real warlock nerf.. The imp sb change won't happen if they can't get a pve lifetap nerf through. I have a feeling this is gonna come back at 15% health for 20% mana and will actually end up as a buff.
#1638SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dakalro
Nah, I have no issues with the Imp SB nerf if it comes with a very juicy Shadow Priest nerf. Inci has already been put ahead of SB for next patch and furthermore it even has a much more stable dps outcome, only based on crit and not ISB uptime, ISB uptime luck, itchy finger shadow priests and crit . Even with 1 ISB/lock SB dps is still more luck prone.
#1639SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Flamingcloud
Put ahead by not enough to offset the loss of shadow priest dps/utility.. I personally don't want to loot a new cape and pay for a sunfire enchant.

Yes I realize the imp sb nerf would almost exclusively affect spriest dps, but there are many a retard out there that won't see it this way and block any attempt to make such a change. Plus if mages ever all switched out of fire(like say.. if their mana regen was good enough to be arcane) both our options would be gimped all of a sudden.

Also why would you want spriests to be nerfed? They don't compete with us on raid spots.. They are a utility class we are a dps class.


My conclusion: PvE Warlocks are unnerfable if we end up with a PvE lifetap buff.
#1640SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Amonette
An ISB nerf would just clear up muddy waters as to which is better fire/shadow.
As for LT, I could see a single % coming in, as in "Converts 15% of your total Hp into mana."
#1641SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Flamingcloud
That would also be pretty awesome, although I am pretty sure they will still keep the pvp nerf portion in. All I really care about is getting as much or more mana back per-tap then I did before, don't care if it is less efficient. Your way, my way, 18 or 20%.., all upgrades. I mean the only way this will not work out for the better at this point is if they revert to live values and lower the coefficient.(lowered coefficient was the original change in those notes ages ago)
#1642SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mallahet
Originally Posted by Amonette View Post
As for LT, I could see a single % coming in, as in "Converts 15% of your total Hp into mana."
Exactly what I was thinking.

The ISB "nerf" would also make it easier to manage game balance in WOTLK.
#1643SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
dakalro
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
Put ahead by not enough to offset the loss of shadow priest dps/utility.. I personally don't want to loot a new cape and pay for a sunfire enchant.

Yes I realize the imp sb nerf would almost exclusively affect spriest dps, but there are many a retard out there that won't see it this way and block any attempt to make such a change. Plus if mages ever all switched out of fire(like say.. if their mana regen was good enough to be arcane) both our options would be gimped all of a sudden.

Also why would you want spriests to be nerfed? They don't compete with us on raid spots.. They are a utility class we are a dps class.


My conclusion: PvE Warlocks are unnerfable if we end up with a PvE lifetap buff.
I only said it won't matter if shadow priests get a juicy nerf worth the ISB loss, nothing else.
Oh boy was I dead then, really, really meant buff )

Last edited by dakalro : 02/27/08 at 2:22 AM. Reason: stupidity
#1644SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Flamingcloud
We all know in wotlk we will be back to affliction until we get mid range gear again then switch to destro (or maybe demo).. There is no way affliction will ever be the best as long as it scales so horrible with haste/crit/hit. Until they make dots scale 100% with crit/haste it will be a broken tree.

Oh and shadow priests need a utility nerf not a dps nerf.

Originally Posted by Chimera View Post
"Mana pot spam is best," works for stand and burn fights, but on more interesting execution fights you need to think about how the fight is going to play out, and pick the potion scheme that fits best with that particular fight. The only T6 fight where I consider mana pot spam mandatory is Kaz'rogal.
Um you realize no matter what fight it is one mana pot basically eliminates one lifetap freeing up 1.5 seconds of shadowbolting.. It doesn't matter what proportion of the fight is spent lifetapping.. There is only two things that could influence potting imo..

1. Healers can't afford to heal you.
2. That marginal dps upgrade (like 2 shadowbolts on a 6minute fight) might actually make the difference between winning and wiping.

Last edited by Flamingcloud : 02/26/08 at 3:13 PM.
#1645SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Chaley
Originally Posted by Amonette View Post
An ISB nerf would just clear up muddy waters as to which is better fire/shadow.
As for LT, I could see a single % coming in, as in "Converts 15% of your total Hp into mana."
That would buff what it currently is for PvP, and they wanted to nerf it for PvP.
#1646SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gumibear
Originally Posted by dakalro View Post
Nah, I have no issues with the Imp SB nerf if it comes with a very juicy Shadow Priest nerf. Inci has already been put ahead of SB for next patch and furthermore it even has a much more stable dps outcome, only based on crit and not ISB uptime, ISB uptime luck, itchy finger shadow priests and crit . Even with 1 ISB/lock SB dps is still more luck prone.
You really shouldn't wish for any nerfs to your raid's DPS. Even if you desperately want to be fire.
#1647SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
The fact you go through mana like candy is completely irrelevant for the potion choice. Assuming you actaully can't lifetap for "free", it depends wether 100 mp5 gives you more than having extra damage and crit on a couple spells every 2 minutes. While the answer is still "100 mp5 will give you more" it has nothing to do with the mana consumption, it has to do with the amount of damage lost by spending X duration on lifetaps being a bigger loss than the extra spell dmg/crit from the destruction potion.

Going oom doesn't immidiately mean more mana is better. It might, but the fact you go oom is far from enough to determine the usefullness of extra mana. What you can do with that extra mana VS what you lose to get that mana is what really matters.
#1648SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Murdoch View Post
Unless I'm mistaken the Gnomish bonus to Int (+5%) only applies to your base Int, not total. .
I don't know about your Gnome, but mine gets 5% more Int than a non-Gnome Warlock has; it adds up to like 20 int with Tier 6 gear, so that is hardy something to worry about non-Gnomes.


I am interested to see the new Life Tap when it comes.
#1649SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3PSGarak
Originally Posted by Bogeywoman View Post
Another thing to ponder is that in the expansion, stamina went up on gear drastically more than int did. I now have 2x the hit points of an old-WoW main tank, buffed, in my survival gear, but I only have 1.4x or so the mana.

So in WotLK, given current gear and trending levels, raiding warlocks will have around 20k hp, and maybe 12k mana, and stam set locks will have 25-28k hp and 10k mana. A lifetap for that latter guy will hit him for 4200 damage and return 1500 mana.
In WLK they actually redesigned the item formulas to give everyone significantly more survivability, and upped people's base stats as well. There's no reason to think that stamina's item cost is getting cut by half again in the next expansion, especially since arena is nowhere near being World of TwoShotCraft like BGs were pre-TBC. Expect your health and mana ratios to remain relatively constant for the next expansion. The absolute values will probably skyrocket, to keep in line with damage and new talents, but the ratios should stay about where they are.

...of course that very well may not matter next patch. I eagerly await a version of lifetap that does not have negative scaling. I fully expect it to be a heinous nerf for at least PvP, and possibly PvE, and I really can't say I blame them.
#1650SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dakalro
Originally Posted by Gumibear View Post
You really shouldn't wish for any nerfs to your raid's DPS. Even if you desperately want to be fire.
As I edited my 1st post above also, I actually meant buff but think i was kinda sleeping back when I wrote that I even had no idea why people kept telling me I shouldn't wish for nerfs
#1651SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3alhill
One thing I am curious about in WOTLK is whether deep demo locks will still be running around in two piece t5. The health link scales perfectly and could theoretically be used for many expansions to come. If Blizzard does not provide similar gear with the same function, deep demo locks may find t5 to be superior even taking into account the inferior stats.

Same issue with mage 2 piece t5, actually, which also scales perfectly, particularly if arcane at some point in the future becomes the "it" build for mages, like fire is now. I'm sure there's some other sets that may also have useful and scaleable bonuses at a relatively low "number of pieces of gimp gear" cost.

I know some of the old pre-BC raiding sets had useful and scaleable bonuses, but none of the best bonuses were available at a cost of only two pieces. I am interested to see what happens in the expansion with some of these raiding sets.
#1652SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3gunit12
Gear/Gem Selection

I was considering regemming my gear from spell dmg/crit gems to pure spell dmg gems, but am worried about my spell crit... will it be too low? Also any other general gearing tips would be appreciated. My guild is just starting the first few bosses in MH and BT.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...Staghelm&n=Kut
#1653SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Idk
Originally Posted by alhill View Post
One thing I am curious about in WOTLK is whether deep demo locks will still be running around in two piece t5. The health link scales perfectly and could theoretically be used for many expansions to come. If Blizzard does not provide similar gear with the same function, deep demo locks may find t5 to be superior even taking into account the inferior stats.

Same issue with mage 2 piece t5, actually, which also scales perfectly, particularly if arcane at some point in the future becomes the "it" build for mages, like fire is now. I'm sure there's some other sets that may also have useful and scaleable bonuses at a relatively low "number of pieces of gimp gear" cost.

I know some of the old pre-BC raiding sets had useful and scaleable bonuses, but none of the best bonuses were available at a cost of only two pieces. I am interested to see what happens in the expansion with some of these raiding sets.
Well, one could argue that the old 3-piece set bonuses of T1/T2 (out of 8 total pieces) are synonymous with the 2-piece bonuses of T4/T5/T6 (out of 5 total pieces). Many of the bonuses from those sets were changed.. the one I can think of right off the bat is T2 druid 3-piece being changed from +15% mana regen while casting to a static 20 mp5.

There's a chance that they'll keep the set bonuses around but I highly doubt it. I think Blizzard made a strong effort to ensure that no piece of pre-TBC equipment would be irreplaceable in the expansion. There are a few items from pre-TBC that continue to be useful (I'm looking at you, BWL trinkets) but I don't think that any of them are necessary/irreplaceable.

Just my .02.
#1654SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Flamingcloud
It is gonna take some mighty powerful items to offset 4pc t6 for a destro lock. Belt/Bracer/Shoulder/Boot together takes about 32% of your item budgeting(and result in much less than 32% of your final stats..) So for an item to overtake those stats +6% increase on all stats(and base).. It might take items in those slots double the stats of each of those pieces.
#1655SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Idk
I haven't seen any discussion about the changes to the MSD metagem.. so I put together some back of the envelope math.

Old MSD - chance to have the next spell cast at 50% cast time.

- Spreadsheet shows me getting a proc every 57.31s with my toon's 2.37s shadowbolt.
- This means 1 shadowbolt at 1.5s every 57.31s.
- You could call this a 36.7% haste buff for 1.5s (since we're currently capped by the GCD at 1.5s).
- 36.7% haste = 576 haste rating.
So 576 haste rating * (1.5 / 57.31) = average 15.1 haste rating over the 57.31 seconds.

New MSD - 4 sec buff of 320 haste.

- My 2.37s shadowbolt becomes a 1.87s shadowbolt.
- Assume the proc chance stays the same.. 15% chance, 45s cooldown.. still getting 1 proc every 57.31 seconds.
- However, since my new shadowbolt is 1.87s and the buff is a flat 4s, I can start 3 casts within that 4s window. 1.87 * 3 = 5.61s of effective buff.
- The new MSD buff is a confirmed 320 haste rating
So 320 haste rating * (5.61 / 57.31) = average 31.3 haste rating over the 57.31 seconds.

---

Is this the right way to calculate the value of the meta? I think there's great potential for this to be quite a bit better than the old one (despite the pissing and moaning from a huge chunk of the community)... I'm not sure it will outpace the CSD for destro locks but there's a very likely chance that it will be better for afflic and demo specced locks.
#1656SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Idk View Post

New MSD - 4 sec buff of 320 haste.

- My 2.37s shadowbolt becomes a 1.87s shadowbolt.
- Assume the proc chance stays the same.. 15% chance, 45s cooldown.. still getting 1 proc every 57.31 seconds.
- However, since my new shadowbolt is 1.87s and the buff is a flat 4s, I can start 3 casts within that 4s window. 1.87 * 3 = 5.61s of effective buff.
- The new MSD buff is a confirmed 320 haste rating
So 320 haste rating * (5.61 / 57.31) = average 31.3 haste rating over the 57.31 seconds.

---

Is this the right way to calculate the value of the meta? I think there's great potential for this to be quite a bit better than the old one (despite the pissing and moaning from a huge chunk of the community)... I'm not sure it will outpace the CSD for destro locks but there's a very likely chance that it will be better for afflic and demo specced locks.

Assuming you are chaincasting, it'll be very difficult to get 3 casts in that 4 second window, given that the proc will go off midcast a lot of the time.
#1657SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by gunit12 View Post
I was considering regemming my gear from spell dmg/crit gems to pure spell dmg gems, but am worried about my spell crit... will it be too low? Also any other general gearing tips would be appreciated. My guild is just starting the first few bosses in MH and BT.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...Staghelm&n=Kut
The most accurate answers will come from the spreadsheet linked on the original post. The difference between those gems is very close so it depends not only on your gear but on your raid setup (to determine values on crit from ISB).

Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
It is gonna take some mighty powerful items to offset 4pc t6 for a destro lock. Belt/Bracer/Shoulder/Boot together takes about 32% of your item budgeting(and result in much less than 32% of your final stats..) So for an item to overtake those stats +6% increase on all stats(and base).. It might take items in those slots double the stats of each of those pieces.
If they intend to stick with 8pc tiers with only 4pc bonuses... you could potentially have both. I imagine they would make a higher-piece bonus offset the drop in nuke buffage.
#1658SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Idk
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
Assuming you are chaincasting, it'll be very difficult to get 3 casts in that 4 second window, given that the proc will go off midcast a lot of the time.
I've never had an MSD.. does the proc calculation happen when you begin casting or when you finish casting. I would assume the latter.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to be chaincasting shadowbolts as a destro lock. Presumably you could ensure that you always have 1200 mana so that if an MSD proc happens you have the mana for 3 straight shadowbolts. If you really wanted to ensure effective use of the meta, you could try to perform all of your tapping needs during the 45s "hidden cooldown" so that the meta never procs off a tap (meaning wasting part of the haste buff on a GCD).

I tried to calculate a haste rating number instead of a flat percentage increase because the value of haste rating can be scaled with the amount of tapping done within the 57s window. The more taps you perform within that window, the less the haste rating increases your personal DPS.
#1659SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Akj
Originally Posted by Quizart View Post
It's a bit of a nerf yeah, most warlocks will be getting less mana back then they were before for more health cost - but it isn't a huge nerf for pve raiding, one that I can deal with, shouldn't have to tap that much more often. Although I'll probably be increasing my Super Rejuv Pot chugging ratio.
Basing lifetap efficiency on hp:mp ratio is a flawed concept and it is incredibly short sighted to think that this change does not hurt PvE. Offhand I can think of the following encounters where the ratio is out of whack.

- Leotheras demon form tanking in FR gear
- Capernian tanking in FR gear
- Bloodboil felrage (nobody lifetaps during felrage but just mentioning it for completeness)
- RoS phase 2
- Mother Shahraz in SR gear
- Illidan demon form tanking in SR gear
- Twin Eredar tanking (unconfirmed, going by videos on this one)

Its easy to say that the extra healing burden will be covered by HoTs & overhealing when all content is on farm. Imagine if there were a boss like Shahraz in sunwell, would you feel confident taking locks with a 2:1 hp to mp ratio in SR gear for a healing intensive fight with a mana burn component?

Hope Blizz can come up with a fair scaling mechanism on PTR soon.
#1660SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Flamingcloud
Even if you got perfect world 3 cast every MSD proc, 31.3haste is significantly worse than CSD for destro still. Assuming your numbers are correct anyways.. Not to mention a much harder meta requirement imo(ie all red one blue, instead of mix of reds/yellows/blues)
#1661SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ammanas
Originally Posted by gunit12 View Post
I was considering regemming my gear from spell dmg/crit gems to pure spell dmg gems, but am worried about my spell crit... will it be too low? Also any other general gearing tips would be appreciated. My guild is just starting the first few bosses in MH and BT.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...Staghelm&n=Kut
There is no theoretical threshhold of crit or damage that you need to maintain, the fact is that at most realistic gear levels damage is point for point a better DPS stat than crit. When it comes to gem selection, you have complete control over what stats you are adding so there is no reason to ever take the inferior stat (crit) unless it is to obtain a socket bonus that ends up being better than a straight damage gem (IE: the T6 helm socket).

If you want to see how much of a DPS increase it would be to determine if its worth the time/money/effort, plug your current stats and then your new damage gem stats into the spreadsheet and see what you get. I ran with 19 paper doll crit for awhile when I first switched to 21/40 and was still out-DPSing the more conventional "destro needs crit" locks because they had gimped spell damage. As far as ISB contribution, crit rating has such a bad point to percent ratio that gemming for crit really is going to have a minimal impact on your ISB contribution.
#1662SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Ammanas View Post
There is no theoretical threshhold of crit or damage that you need to maintain, the fact is that at most realistic gear levels damage is point for point a better DPS stat than crit. When it comes to gem selection, you have complete control over what stats you are adding so there is no reason to ever take the inferior stat (crit) unless it is to obtain a socket bonus that ends up being better than a straight damage gem (IE: the T6 helm socket).

If you want to see how much of a DPS increase it would be to determine if its worth the time/money/effort, plug your current stats and then your new damage gem stats into the spreadsheet and see what you get. I ran with 19 paper doll crit for awhile when I first switched to 21/40 and was still out-DPSing the more conventional "destro needs crit" locks because they had gimped spell damage. As far as ISB contribution, crit rating has such a bad point to percent ratio that gemming for crit really is going to have a minimal impact on your ISB contribution.
What you're saying is true. No one should gimp their spellpower to get more crit. But at high gear levels, it's possible to get as much out of crit as spellpower. This is the case for me, I get about equal out of both.
#1663SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3richard
From the 2.4 changes topic: Lifetap now drains 5% of maximum health to return 15% of maximum mana.

This seems like a PvP buff to me, and a PvE nerf. A raiding warlock generally has about 10k mana so the return is just a flat 1.5k. The heavily reduced health cost is pretty strange, considering pretty much everyone thought it was being nerfed because of PvP, but 5% health is negligible most of the time.
#1664SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Spoonman
It's a completely bizarre change, seeing as some blue (Eyonix maybe?) posted that they wanted warlocks to take a bigger hit for life-tapping in PvP. Either that was just a lie, or they changed their minds, or this new LT version is a bug. Personally, losing 600hp to gain 1.5k mana seems ridiculous.
#1665SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Keyne
Originally Posted by Akj View Post
Basing lifetap efficiency on hp:mp ratio is a flawed concept and it is incredibly short sighted to think that this change does not hurt PvE. Offhand I can think of the following encounters where the ratio is out of whack.

- Leotheras demon form tanking in FR gear
- Capernian tanking in FR gear
- Bloodboil felrage (nobody lifetaps during felrage but just mentioning it for completeness)
- RoS phase 2
- Mother Shahraz in SR gear
- Illidan demon form tanking in SR gear
- Twin Eredar tanking (unconfirmed, going by videos on this one)

Its easy to say that the extra healing burden will be covered by HoTs & overhealing when all content is on farm. Imagine if there were a boss like Shahraz in sunwell, would you feel confident taking locks with a 2:1 hp to mp ratio in SR gear for a healing intensive fight with a mana burn component?

Hope Blizz can come up with a fair scaling mechanism on PTR soon.
Half of these situations are ones where you are essentially the main tank, and thus have one or more healers focussing solely and completely on you. You can assume that whatever capacity your healers have for overhealing you wholely or partially mitigates your argument here. So I don't really put too much stock in this concern.
#1666SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3zerdell
I think you misunderstand the nature of warlock tanking. Warlocks are used to tank bosses in resist phases, stacking high fire / shadow / whatever resist gear. What this means is that the damage you take is quite bursty. You might completely resist 3 attacks in a row, then be hit by two for full damage. Given this, and given that you can't predict when this will happen, life tapping is extremely risky. Any change that makes you have to life tap more often, for more health lost is extremely risky.
#1667SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Keyne
I understand that there is additional risk associated with more hurtful lifetaps, but my point remains that it is mitigated a lot by the fact that you are the center of the healers' attention.

Last edited by Keyne : 02/27/08 at 11:37 PM.
#1668SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Amonette
Life tap rank 1 : Coverts 5% of maximum health into 5% of maximum mana.
Life tap rank 2 : Coverts 12% of maximum health into 12% of maximum mana.
Life tap rank 3 : Coverts 20% of maximum health into 20% of maximum mana.

So all that feedback was for nothing. Stam still scales negatively. The last rank is bugged from what I can see, it gives only 15% mana.
#1669SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Faldrath
Stam scales negatively, but it's not so bad as it was, at least for PvE. I'm destro, and I currently LT for 1626 (completely unbuffed numbers, 9806HP/8755MP). If it's 20%, I'll lose 1961 health but gain 1751 mana.

And, to be honest, in my experience, whenever I lifetap I usually get a renew and/or a lifebloom almost immediately in most fights. I imagine it'll be more crippling for PvP (which I don't really do), since there isn't much healing to spare, but for raiding locks this isn't too bad.
#1670SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Eph
Also worth noting is that there are epic versions of the haste, haste/stm, haste/dmg gems. Looks like that'll lighten the load on spinel supplies as well as give us a slight dps increase.
#1671SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Amonette
Originally Posted by Eph View Post
Also worth noting is that there are epic versions of the haste, haste/stm, haste/dmg gems. Looks like that'll lighten the load on spinel supplies as well as give us a slight dps increase.
It will give all those lionseyes' in the guild bank a nice new home.
#1672SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Dalus
CoR

My guild normally raids with 3 Warlocks (usually one of each spec) and 4-5 Melee DPS. (not including the 2-3 tanks.) The warlocks refuse to put up Curse of Recklessness up under any circumstances, claiming that the gain is too minor to be worth the additional damage risk to the tank and/or to be used instead of CoA/CoD. From what I can see with the numbers, this appears to be groundless. Are they correct, is CoR sub-optimal here, or are they just being stubborn?

(P.S. My guild is working on both Vashj and Kael ATM, everything else at that level is on farm, to give you an idea of the boss situations we'd use it for.)
#1673SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Akj
Originally Posted by Keyne View Post
I understand that there is additional risk associated with more hurtful lifetaps, but my point remains that it is mitigated a lot by the fact that you are the center of the healers' attention.
You have pocket healers on Shahraz?
#1674SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3PSGarak
There's a thread on CoR and Amp/Damp magic over here When to use CoR, Amplify/Dampen Magic?
There's some empirical evidence that one fully talented Demo Shout will take a boss to zero AP, even with CoR up, which means that there is no drawback at all under those situations. If that is not the case, quite simply, it's not for the warlocks to decide on their own. If the tank/healers agree that they can take some additional damage without realistically increasing the chance of being insta-gibbed, then use CoR. 860 Armor Penetration on four to five melee will outdamage CoD, as long as the melee are assigned to the CoR target and pulling their weight.
#1675SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morwen
I'd be quite happy with a 20%-20% rank as it basically brings lifetap to the same as it was at the T6 level before in terms of mana efficiency and opens the way for future scaling that separates efficiency and damage output. That was what quite a few people pointed out, so it can hardly be said that they didn't listen.
#1676SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gumibear
Is anyone able to get ranks 2 and 3 of life tap? I'm stuck with rank 1 only and the others aren't showing up on trainers.

EDIT: On test.
#1677SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pidge
I wasn't able to. There seems to be some discrepancy across test realms. I don't know if it a difference in PvE versus PvP, or US versus EU.
#1678SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gumibear
I'm on US PVE and only have rank 1. =(
#1679SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Pidge
Okay, now that Life Tap has been scaled up to 20% mana, whats the current DPS value of Intelligence against +damage, given that Int increases crit% and lowers Life Tap frequency.

I'd also be very curious how the new Ember Skyfire Diamond meta compares to CSD with the changes to Life tap. Ember Skyfire is +14 Spell damage and +2% intellect.

Last edited by Pidge : 02/28/08 at 4:53 AM.
#1680SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyth
Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
I wasn't able to. There seems to be some discrepancy across test realms. I don't know if it a difference in PvE versus PvP, or US versus EU.
I know of someone who copied their character twice about a week ago. One character had all three ranks, one didn't. I have only one rank on both my pvp and my pve characters. The algorithm might be "when the character was copied", who knows.


Regarding the change in general:

I think it's okay. Warlocks will be at a disadvantage on fights like mother or RoS, sure, but we're an advantage of Kaz'Rogal. I think you have to look at both sides.

20% is generous, meaning T6 doesn't see a dps hit (although we probably will from what we could have had in Sunwell gear) and lower-geared locks see a dps boost.

They did listen, multiple ranks exist for pvp and for tanking.

Down the road I think it will make it easier to balance lock gear and scaling because lifetap is more fixed (I was convinced by a few folks that a scaling lifetap isn't actually a good design from Blizzard's perspective.)

I am concerned a bit about how this works with levelling-up gear (from 1, not from 70) and various gear levels for soloing.


In the end I think that, if you accept that they wanted something that scaled so pvp took a bigger stamina hit, it was going to look something like this anyways so this may be the best we can hope for.

I'm not convinced it's as terrible with respect to stamina as the PTR forums would like to make it out to be. There's plenty of other stats (like haste!) which, while you get something out of them, you also lose something and don't get "full" efficiency out of them (for haste, it's that we have to go into mana-regen mode more often.)
#1681SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ruaduun
Originally Posted by Akj View Post
Basing lifetap efficiency on hp:mp ratio is a flawed concept and it is incredibly short sighted to think that this change does not hurt PvE. Offhand I can think of the following encounters where the ratio is out of whack.

- Leotheras demon form tanking in FR gear
- Capernian tanking in FR gear
- Bloodboil felrage (nobody lifetaps during felrage but just mentioning it for completeness)
- RoS phase 2
- Mother Shahraz in SR gear
- Illidan demon form tanking in SR gear
- Twin Eredar tanking (unconfirmed, going by videos on this one)
Only been tanking Leo (full FR gear) and Capernian (no FR other than from Pet) so far - but at Leo I only tap during human phase (coordinating with my Healer so he wont get aggro) and on Capernian its also no problem since its no "race" in either phase giving me time zu warn my Healer(s) before I tap....IF I have to.

Cant coment on the other fights though since we're not there yet.
#1682SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gensil
[Bracing Earthstorm Diamond]

Can anyone explain why this would be a good gem for a lock ?
I was having this discussion in our guild as well as i saw a lock with this gem in his headslot and subtlety on cloak.
from what i remember is that threat enhancements dont stack.

it has probably been discussed but 68 are alot of pages to troll trough during work so sorry for repeating a question if it is already answered
#1683SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3whi
As far as i know they do actually stack, but its multiplicative. Anyways it was probably an affliction lock that didnt want to regem his gear to meet requirements of other meta's.

Swift Starfire Diamond - Items - World of Warcraft - 2 x yellow
Chaotic Skyfire Diamond - Items - World of Warcraft - 2 x blue
#1684SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Akj
Originally Posted by Kyth View Post

Regarding the change in general:

.....

Down the road I think it will make it easier to balance lock gear and scaling because lifetap is more fixed (I was convinced by a few folks that a scaling lifetap isn't actually a good design from Blizzard's perspective.)
I think a lot of players are missing the difference between the current version & the PTR version.

Both versions scale (current - 80% of sdmg, ptr - 20% of max hp)
Both versions cause an increasing hp penalty per lifetap as you gear up ( damage & stamina both increase as one moves up the tiers)
Both versions scale with buffs (fort, wrath of air, flasks..)

The difference is that the current version has a direct correlation between hp lost & mp gained whereas the PTR version scales off two independent stats. Its like taxing someone based on hours worked but paying them based on the hours spent watching TV.
#1685SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Nfariessence
So, assuming that the 20% max health for 20% max mana change goes live, does this mean that [Ember Skyfire Diamond] becomes a viable replacement for [Chaotic Skyfire Diamond]? Can someone better than me (and who has full access to the armory/WoW at the moment) do the math on this.

~ Chaotic gives you 14 crit rating and 3% more crit damage. I have about 25% crit from gear and 1500 spell damage self buffed. My observed crit rate is something around 33% with an elemental shaman and 1650ish spell damage while raid buffed, and my SB crits usually range from 6.5k - 9k (yes I get freak 11k crits as well, but it's not a common occurrence). That means I get 0.63% more crit and my crits hit for ~232 more damage, right?

~ Ember gives you 14 straight up spell damage, which itemizes better than crit on a point-for-point basis, but it also gives us 2% more Int which means about 46 more mana per life tap, or a free SB every 10 taps.

This is slightly further complicated by the fact that the color gem requirements of the Ember are much friendlier than they are on Chaotic. If I switched to Ember I could trade out the 2 [Glowing Shadowsong Amethyst]s that I have for 2 more [Runed Crimson Spinel]s for an extra 12 spell damage.
#1686SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Ralask
Would love some of the expert theorycrafters to take a look at the new 54 hit alch trinket. With the new lifetap changes I think drinking mana pots might become needed. Wondering if that trinket is going to replace icon or hex lord.
#1687SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bleeni
Originally Posted by Nfariessence View Post
~ Chaotic gives you 14 crit rating and 3% more crit damage. I have about 25% crit from gear and 1500 spell damage self buffed. My observed crit rate is something around 33% with an elemental shaman and 1650ish spell damage while raid buffed, and my SB crits usually range from 6.5k - 9k (yes I get freak 11k crits as well, but it's not a common occurrence). That means I get 0.63% more crit and my crits hit for ~232 more damage, right?
Hi nfar, CSD is actually 9% crit damage with ruin, which would be about 697.5 more damage per crit for 33% of your SB. Plus 0.63% more crit chance on top.

Originally Posted by Nfariessence View Post
~ Ember gives you 14 straight up spell damage, which itemizes better than crit on a point-for-point basis, but it also gives us 2% more Int which means about 46 more mana per life tap, or a free SB every 10 taps.

This is slightly further complicated by the fact that the color gem requirements of the Ember are much friendlier than they are on Chaotic. If I switched to Ember I could trade out the 2 [Glowing Shadowsong Amethyst]s that I have for 2 more [Runed Crimson Spinel]s for an extra 12 spell damage.
Effectively, ember will give you 26 damage and extra 40-ish mana per tap. But when you are tapping for 2k+ each time with 2.4 gears, you are only saving one GCD for every 50 GCD, or the time you used up spending that 100k mana. Imo, CSD still leads by far.
#1688SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3richard
With SP gear it's very easy to go under the spellhit cap (as opposed to BT/MH loot where it's very easy to go over), so the trinket might be worth it.

I'd imagine a warlock with best-in-slot items from SP would have to gem for some spellhit to stay at the cap (But I haven't really looked at any numbers).

Edit: (aimed at the alchemy trinket post)
#1689SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Caffeine
Originally Posted by Ralask View Post
With the new lifetap changes I think drinking mana pots might become needed.
Most warlocks are already chain-potting super mana on most longer fights. The new trinket is somewhat interesting for warlocks, but on some fights it seems better to use destruction potions, the trinket then loses much of its worth and I don't really see a possibility to build two gear sets around using and not using the trinket.
#1690SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Modez
I know this is pretty newb question, but I'm leveling a lock and was wondering, once I hit 70, the guild I'm going to be raiding with is starting t5 instances.. I was wondering on the meta gem choice, I'm obviously going to be starting affli mainly because the lack of gear and the fact that I'm going to be either 1 of 1 warlock or 1 of 2 warlocks raiding. What would be the best starting meta for an affli lock, also including the recent changes to life tap? I was looking at the 14 spell dmg 2% int gem, and was thinking that was probably the best way to go but I would like confirmation.
#1691SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Flamingcloud
Hooray for massive lifetap buff.. Lifetapping for 2200-2600 mana is going to be sweet. Haste affecting it aswell.. Going to be lifetapping like 40 less than on live.
#1692SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Idk
Can't find the answer for this elsewhere and I don't have the pieces to test it: will the 2-piece T5 bonus heal a phase-shifted imp? I'd like an answer from someone who actually has the pieces and has tried it.
#1693SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Necrostar
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
Can't find the answer for this elsewhere and I don't have the pieces to test it: will the 2-piece T5 bonus heal a phase-shifted imp? I'd like an answer from someone who actually has the pieces and has tried it.

Isn't that kind of moot point ?
#1694SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wednesday
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
Can't find the answer for this elsewhere and I don't have the pieces to test it: will the 2-piece T5 bonus heal a phase-shifted imp? I'd like an answer from someone who actually has the pieces and has tried it.
Yes it does, and yes it's completely useless at 100% overhealing.
#1695SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
Can't find the answer for this elsewhere and I don't have the pieces to test it: will the 2-piece T5 bonus heal a phase-shifted imp? I'd like an answer from someone who actually has the pieces and has tried it.
Yes.

Originally Posted by Ralask View Post
Would love some of the expert theorycrafters to take a look at the new 54 hit alch trinket. With the new lifetap changes I think drinking mana pots might become needed. Wondering if that trinket is going to replace icon or hex lord.
The change to LT means better mana/gcd than on Live. It also means losing more HPs, but that just means smarter Tap-placement on damage heavy fights.

As far as the trinket, 40% increased pottage means if you're using every pot cd, that bonus can be considered 40mp5 (if using Supers). It scales from there (ie using pots every 4mins would be 20mp5, etc).
#1696SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3erikdsn
0/40/21 vs 7/43/11 (succy vs. felguard)

My question is multifacted:

• I lose out on Imp Corr, should I go 5/35/21 instead of 0/40/21 for succubus spec (or also get imp lifetap)

• Is a succubus way too squishy to raid with?

• Has anyone actually compared the 2?

• I know Affliction is the best for dps, pre-BT, but I hate keeping track of 5 dots.

• I'm at work, so I cant make this initial post very long

I just hit 70, but I will prolly gear up pretty fast, my guild is raiding BT/Hyjal, my main is a feral druid. So, this question may seem a bit noob. I asked the locks in my guild and nobody seems to have tried it.
#1697SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wednesday
Originally Posted by erikdsn View Post
My question is multifacted:

• I lose out on Imp Corr, should I go 5/35/21 instead of 0/40/21 for succubus spec (or also get imp lifetap)

• Is a succubus way too squishy to raid with?

• Has anyone actually compared the 2?

• I know Affliction is the best for dps, pre-BT, but I hate keeping track of 5 dots.

• I'm at work, so I cant make this initial post very long

I just hit 70, but I will prolly gear up pretty fast, my guild is raiding BT/Hyjal, my main is a feral druid. So, this question may seem a bit noob. I asked the locks in my guild and nobody seems to have tried it.
If you don't like micromanaging dots, I don't see how you'll like micromanaging a pet. IMO if you don't have a specific reason to go demo (tanking), then you should either go destro or affliction. If you do go affliction, you'll want to pick up malediction, shadow embrace and improved imp, so there's only going to be 4 dots to juggle.
#1698SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Ralask View Post
Would love some of the expert theorycrafters to take a look at the new 54 hit alch trinket. With the new lifetap changes I think drinking mana pots might become needed. Wondering if that trinket is going to replace icon or hex lord.
I think it can replace Icon, but probably not Hex Lord

I figure that 54 hit is equal to 54 haste on the margin (since you can trade them equally via gemming), which puts it equal to about 70 spell damage for me.

I don't have the hexhead, so I plan to use Skull + Crusade with a 12% hit set (currently I have 12.5% hit, which will drop to about 12.2 once I get my last 2 pieces of t6), and swap in the new trinket as needed.

On another note, I got a working Recap on the PTR. Here's some real world fire spec testing:

ImageShack - Hosting :: 24firetestdx4.jpg

1372 dps with just self buffs and a lousy 15% crit rate.....definitely seems on par with shadow.
#1699SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Idk
A soul-linked imp takes damage via soul-link. 2-piece T5 can be used to heal the pet through any incidental damage taken via soul-link without ever having to break phase shift. My average fight dps is on the order of 1500; 15% healing means 225 healing per second to the pet. Imp takes 20% of my damage via soul-link. Imp has ~3500 hp buffed so I'd need to take 17,500 damage to one-shot him (which will kill me anyway). 1125 dps against me will counter the 225 hps that I give the imp through 2-piece T5. It seems unlikely under most circumstances that a soul-linked imp would die from soul-link if I have 2-piece T5.

I'm in a position where I'm seriously considering a 1/39/21 spec for the threat reduction from the imp. I'm currently 0/21/40 and produce massive amounts of damage and threat relative to the rest of my guild. It's exceptionally rare for me to be #1 on dps by a margin less than 20% and it's not uncommon to have 2x the damage of the person in the #2 spot. Even with a prism of inner calm equipped and with well timed soulshatters I'm still riding the threat ceiling (and hosing my dps) on at least 75% of the boss encounters* that we regularly run... it's especially bad with our warrior tank and pally tank, the bear is the only tank that can out-threat me under most circumstances. Given this, I ran numbers through the spreadsheet assuming 2.3 values (so no GCD improvements, which will benefit the imp spec much more in this case):

My 0/21/40 spec gives me the following two options:
not threat capped: shadow destro with immolate = 1961 dps
threat capped: shadow destro with immo + prism = 1902 dps and 1605 tps

The 1/39/21 spec would give me the following two options:
not threat capped: 1/39/21 with succy and soul-link = 1957 dps
threat capped: 1/39/21 with imp and soul-link, no prism = 1824 dps and 1345 tps
(the ultra rare situation where I can have my imp attack = 2169 dps and 1345 tps ... I don't plan on ever being able to do this)

The damage difference for non-threat capped situations is negligible, assuming I can keep the succy alive in a corner somewhere. For threat capped situations, I lose 78 dps in exchange for a loss of 255 tps. I have to lose 4.1% casting time with the destro spec to holding back for threat in order for it to lose damage relative to the imp-demo spec.

As a side effect (NOT my primary motivation for this) looking forward to the new lifetap changes.. using some rough numbers here: assume my toon has 10000 hp. The imp will increase my hp by about 1000, so 11000. My effective health pool is 20% more than that as a result of soul-link: 13200. However, my lifetaps will only cost 20% of 11000 or 2200 hp per tap. Assume 20 taps in a fight, that's 44,000 hp that needs to be healed. A warlock with an actual health pool of 13,200 will tap for 2640 requiring 52,800 healing. It's a minor difference, but worth mentioning I suppose.

* Fights where I have to hold back due to threat:

hydross
tidewalker
leotheras
voidreaver
solarian
kael
vashj
eagle boss timed ZA
bear boss timed ZA
lynx boss timed ZA
zul'jin
rage winterchill
hyjal trash - worth noting given our current progression

Fights where I don't have to hold back:

lurker
karathress
dragonhawk boss timed ZA

You're probably thinking I'm crazy for considering this. You probably think our tanks should generate more threat and I agree. In the meantime, I'm not sure what other option I have other than spamming rank 1 spells trying to get crits for negative threat from my prism.

Last edited by Idk : 02/28/08 at 3:49 PM.
#1700SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Necrostar
All I can say is bear tank FTW . Our MT is a bear tank & I have to hold back at times, but he allows me to keep rolling out bolts one after another.

We also use a couple of prot tanks and a prot pally for OT needs. The same just cannot be said here. I'm easily threat capped "making a sandwhich" ...
#1701SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wednesday
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
You're probably thinking I'm crazy for considering this. You probably think our tanks should generate more threat and I agree. In the meantime, I'm not sure what other option I have other than spamming rank 1 spells trying to get crits for negative threat from my prism.
Yea, unless you're doing somthing like casting CoD instead of a debuff curse, imp w/ the 2pct5 would probably be the best way to dump more threat. Interesting that I hadn't thought of that before, thanks for the tip.
#1702SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Akj
Originally Posted by Idk View Post

* Fights where I have to hold back due to threat:

hydross
tidewalker
leotheras
voidreaver
solarian
kael
vashj
eagle boss timed ZA
bear boss timed ZA
lynx boss timed ZA
zul'jin
rage winterchill
hyjal trash - worth noting given our current progression

Fights where I don't have to hold back:

lurker
karathress
dragonhawk boss timed ZA

You're probably thinking I'm crazy for considering this. You probably think our tanks should generate more threat and I agree. In the meantime, I'm not sure what other option I have other than spamming rank 1 spells trying to get crits for negative threat from my prism.
Solarian, Vashj & bear boss are tauntable, if you are pulling aggro on those fights you need to find better tanks.
Hydross, Leo, Zuljin have aggro resets, if you are pulling aggro on those then its just bad timing on your part.
On fights like rage winterchill & tidewalker a couple of misdirects in addition to the time spent not dpsing (running out of death & decay, watery grave, aoeing murlocs) should give tanks enough of a head start.

On Tidewalker, Hydross & Hyjal trash we give the warlocks tranquil air in addition to salv so they can aoe earlier. If you raid with a good number of shaman this would be a good option.
#1703SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Idk
Originally Posted by Akj View Post
Solarian, Vashj & bear boss are tauntable, if you are pulling aggro on those fights you need to find better tanks.
Hydross, Leo, Zuljin have aggro resets, if you are pulling aggro on those then its just bad timing on your part.
On fights like rage winterchill & tidewalker a couple of misdirects in addition to the time spent not dpsing (running out of death & decay, watery grave, aoeing murlocs) should give tanks enough of a head start.

On Tidewalker, Hydross & Hyjal trash we give the warlocks tranquil air in addition to salv so they can aoe earlier. If you raid with a good number of shaman this would be a good option.
1. We don't have the option of finding better tanks on our server. We're the most advanced raiding guild on our server and we downed Kael for the first time last night (talk about backwater..) I believe that our tanks are good.. they could probably be better but (aside from transferring) that's not an option.

2. Hydross, Leo, Zul'jin: yes, these bosses have aggro resets but you're mistaken if you believe that the aggro reset is the only time you can pull. I can get to the top of the threat chart after spending the first chunk of a phase seeding exclusively off of hydross herself. Phases 2, 4, and 5 of zul'jin I have to hold back considerably. Same with each leo phase. Pulling aggro at the beginning of a phase is not the issue (I understand how that _can_ be a problem, it's just not a problem for me).

The math, simplified:

destro warlock A generates X amount of damage which causes Y amount of threat.
imp-demo warlock B generates X amount of damage which causes Y * .80 amount of threat.

In any threat capped fight or phase, warlock B has the _potential_ to do up to 25% more damage than warlock A before pulling aggro. Phased fights _especially_ benefit from passive threat reductions because the soulshatter cooldown makes it so that you can rarely use soulshatter in more than 1 phase (out of 5 in the case of Zul'jin, for example).

3. I recognize that many of these fights involve movement but I'm telling you matter-of-fact: on these fights, in my guild with my players and my tanks, I end up threat-capped.. even if I have to run or tap or whatever. I recognize that many of these scenarios prevent other locks from reaching the threat ceiling, I just don't find that to be the case for me and my situation.
#1704SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
I don't see how you get improved imp without significantly gimping yourself. While shadow embrace, having an imp out and malediction are the only real reasons to even go affliction in the first place, improving that imp just costs too much - at best you will be losing range, anything else will be losing DPS.

To illustrate: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft the only talents you could argue are in the first 3 tiers of affliction, but you can only swap those to other talents within the first 3 tiers of affliction, which do not include improved imp. Anything from the 4th tier and above is pretty much a must-have for affliction raiding. 17 in destruction is also required for every warlock. Unless you want to give up range and/or dps you cannot put more than the 1 leftover point in improved imp, and even that may be better off in Intensity or maybe even CoEx. 3/3 improved imp is not possible with a viable build. The tank will live with 14 less stamina better than you managing with 2% less shadow damage to the raid if you take out malediction, 2% less damage reduction if you drop points from shadow embrace or if you lose range by dropping either of the range talents (range=survivability+dps).

Even if for some reason you have such insane gear (T6++) that malediction/ruin becomes a better build for DPS, then having to pick ruin means you're at the exact same position. In fact, you'll have 2 free points instead of 1, but will only have 2/5 contagion (3% less damage to corruption - remember to take that into account when comparing UA to ruin on the spreadsheet!).

Bottom line if you think an affliction warlock should have improved imp, you probably didn't look at the talent calculator carefully enough, or just don't care about anything other than 14 more stamina on the tank. Note that I say 14 becuase if you really want improved imp you can put your last point in there having 1/3 which already gives 7s tam out of the 21 you'd get from 3/3 improved imp.
#1705SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Akj
Originally Posted by Idk View Post

My 0/21/40 spec gives me the following two options:
not threat capped: shadow destro with immolate = 1961 dps
threat capped: shadow destro with immo + prism = 1902 dps and 1605 tps

The 1/39/21 spec would give me the following two options:
not threat capped: 1/39/21 with succy and soul-link = 1957 dps
threat capped: 1/39/21 with imp and soul-link, no prism = 1824 dps and 1345 tps

The math, simplified:

destro warlock A generates X amount of damage which causes Y amount of threat.
imp-demo warlock B generates X amount of damage which causes Y * .80 amount of threat.

In any threat capped fight or phase, warlock B has the _potential_ to do up to 25% more damage than warlock A before pulling aggro. Phased fights _especially_ benefit from passive threat reductions because the soulshatter cooldown makes it so that you can rarely use soulshatter in more than 1 phase (out of 5 in the case of Zul'jin, for example).
Problem is if lock A does X damage then lock B will only do (X/1.10) - Z dmg

1. Being imp demo will result in a significant loss in damage from not having DS-Succi & SnF that the 20% passive threat reduction might become a moot point (except on probably VR).
2. Your numbers seem way off for the gear that you have.

If you are that worried about aggro try felguard spec. Its pretty competitive in all T5 content & early-mid T6 content.
#1706SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
LockApologist
Originally Posted by Akj View Post
Problem is if lock A does X damage then lock B will only do (X/1.10) - Z dmg

1. Being imp demo will result in a significant loss in damage from not having DS-Succi & SnF that the 20% passive threat reduction might become a moot point (except on probably VR).
2. Your numbers seem way off for the gear that you have.

If you are that worried about aggro try felguard spec. Its pretty competitive in all T5 content & early-mid T6 content.
1. Agreed. Go FG if you want to reduce threat. Splitting DPS w/ a pet is a huge threat reduction. Going for imp reduces your dps significantly.
2. I thought so as well. When I put her gear in 2.0 beta 4, and turned on all grp buffs (Elem totems, Moonkin, Spriest, Malediction CoS, casting CoD + SB only, chaining super manas, full consumables, etc), I get the numbers quoted. However, I'd be extremely surprised to see that performance actually achieved anywhere. I have very similar gear (more dmg, less crit), and I get 1.2-1.4k (actual. ~1.7-1.9 in xls) dps in that situation.

Which again points to a post I made in the spreadsheet thread, where I questioned why the xls so over-estimates real world performance at the high, buffed out the wazoo gear level.

Last edited by LockApologist : 02/28/08 at 6:07 PM.
#1707SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Idk
Originally Posted by Akj View Post
Problem is if lock A does X damage then lock B will only do (X/1.10) - Z dmg

1. Being imp demo will result in a significant loss in damage from not having DS-Succi & SnF that the 20% passive threat reduction might become a moot point (except on probably VR).
2. Your numbers seem way off for the gear that you have.

If you are that worried about aggro try felguard spec. Its pretty competitive in all T5 content & early-mid T6 content.
There's no question that for a stand-and-cast fight with no threat ceiling, a destruction build will beat an imp-demo build. From the numbers I've generated on the spreadsheet, destruction is a 7.5% damage increase over the imp-demo build assuming I'm not using the prism of inner calm. If I have to use that trinket (which I presumably won't have to use with the imp) then that gap drops to 4% (that 4% figure comes from using quag's eye in my other trinket slot.. getting a VSH would further narrow that gap). I'd say that in the vast majority of fights I have to hold back by more than 4%. In situations where I don't have to hold back I can use the succubus for the extra 10% damage.

Felguard spec is a great spec and I've used it many times in the past. I have no doubt that it produces more damage and helps alleviate my threat problems. However, for progression content I just don't feel comfortable enough using it right now (especially since I don't have the VST and I only have 1-piece T5).

Anyway, you don't have to like my proposed spec. I was originally just asking about whether 2-piece T5 affected the phase-shifted imp.. and then felt the need to defend myself against the onslaught (all 2 replies =P) suggesting that there's no possible scenario under which that might be useful.
#1708SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pidge
So Incinerate is looking like it's going to beat up Shadow Bolt on personal DPS. So assuming ISB doesn't change in 2.4, will it be more effective to have your Affliction lock be the only one applying ISB as the other locks wouldn't be eating up charges with Incinerate.
#1709SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3makotospeaks
I'd love to know the same thing, as i near 70 with my lock i was sorta depressed about having to spam SB's eventually for maximum DPS when Fire is imo a bit more interesting. My only thought is that i hear Fire mages are harder to come by later on...where as Shadow priests are not(talking of course about their debuffs that effect our damage fire vs shadow)
#1710SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vagabond
Originally Posted by makotospeaks View Post
I'd love to know the same thing, as i near 70 with my lock i was sorta depressed about having to spam SB's eventually for maximum DPS when Fire is imo a bit more interesting. My only thought is that i hear Fire mages are harder to come by later on...where as Shadow priests are not(talking of course about their debuffs that effect our damage fire vs shadow)
Ehh, it takes all kinds.

I will say this. If I wanted to be a fire nuke casting, 6k hp (fictional min/maxing to maximize output due to current lifetap stupidity) cloth caster, I would have made a mage.

I would really love to once again be a "dot everything up and live while those around me slowly rot or get eaten by my pet" class. But gear and talents.... you know the drill.

O well, at least I can still be a shadowmage.... And casting 2 spells the whole fight means more forum time, even on new content!
#1711SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rouger
i was talking to lock in my guild and we talked about 2.4 damage and gear. so the big problem we were talking about is UA. yes we know that UA is not the best damage spec but it nice to up the raid damage and help the tank. so i think for a UA lock they should look for Haste and damage over other stuff. then destruction should look into damage and crit. the lock i was talking about this was saying no no the other way around witch i think is not good.
#1712SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3atvrider450r
dps spreadsheet

Long time reader, first time poster have a question regarding the dps spreadsheet

I personally use Leulier spreadsheet and love it, but a couple of my warlock friends, use maxdps.com and i was just curious what you guys think about maxdps. It seem to calc more dps then Leulier's does, so im not sure if it as good as the same.
#1713SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3SRneo
Hey guys, I just had a few questions about this "new" incinerate. Now, I know the casting time has been reduced by 10% but I also heard that the spell dmg coefficient is going to be raised a bit too. Is this true?

Now, I know for now Incinerate and Shadowbolt are pretty much on par for eachother with personal DPS, but:

If Imp. Shadowbolt does indeed get nerfed to 15% with the charges only being able to be consumed by your own Shadowbolts, which one edges out the other?

My other question is should locks go incinerate if this happens? I mean, the high end mages I know of are predominately Arcane, so there isn't anyone to put scorch up. So maybe this Imp. Shadowbolt nerf does lower raid dps, but if no one is there to put scorch up, should we still go Incinerate?
#1714SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3PSGarak
I've heard nothing about a coefficient buff for incinerate. Decreasing the cast time will give a relative coefficient boost in the same way that bane does, but no word of anything other than that.

There's also no indication the ISB changes will go through. If it does go through a couple of things change. If you have a lot of shadowpriests, and high haste, your personal ISB uptime might go up instead of down. On the other hand, since it's only your personal DPS and not the raid that's affected any more, it's okay to go fire if that ends up being more damage overall.
Without that change, grab a spreadsheet that has raid ISB damage estimation. That way you can see if the higher personal dps is costing the raid or not. It might not if you have other shadow destro locks, and your shadow preists don't nuke.

Improved Scorch should be up, because your mages should be fire. Arcane died in 2.3(?).
#1715SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Ammanas
Originally Posted by Dalus View Post
My guild normally raids with 3 Warlocks (usually one of each spec) and 4-5 Melee DPS. (not including the 2-3 tanks.) The warlocks refuse to put up Curse of Recklessness up under any circumstances, claiming that the gain is too minor to be worth the additional damage risk to the tank and/or to be used instead of CoA/CoD. From what I can see with the numbers, this appears to be groundless. Are they correct, is CoR sub-optimal here, or are they just being stubborn?

(P.S. My guild is working on both Vashj and Kael ATM, everything else at that level is on farm, to give you an idea of the boss situations we'd use it for.)
Didn't see this answered yet, and its a pretty easy answer: your warlocks are wrong. CoR should always be used over a damage curse if it is safe to do so (and if you have a warrior keeping up Imp. Demo shout it is almost always safe). Not only will it help the melee DPS greatly, it will benefit the hunters (not sure if you were including them as melee) and also result in additional threat for the tanks. It is certainly not a minor gain, and on most fights it poses basically no additional risk to the tank. Actually, if you have 5/5 Imp. Demo up and the Screech debuff from a Hunter's owl it completely nullifies the attack power gained from CoR.

Just use your better judgement, on a lot of fights its impossible to keep the boss fully debuffed the whole time and it can still result in some nasty spike damage on occasion (IE Azgalor or Mother) - but 99% of the time it is going to be safe to keep it up.

Last edited by Ammanas : 02/29/08 at 4:35 AM.
#1716SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mugorim
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
I don't see how you get improved imp without significantly gimping yourself. While shadow embrace, having an imp out and malediction are the only real reasons to even go affliction in the first place, improving that imp just costs too much - at best you will be losing range, anything else will be losing DPS.

To illustrate: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft the only talents you could argue are in the first 3 tiers of affliction, but you can only swap those to other talents within the first 3 tiers of affliction, which do not include improved imp. Anything from the 4th tier and above is pretty much a must-have for affliction raiding. 17 in destruction is also required for every warlock. Unless you want to give up range and/or dps you cannot put more than the 1 leftover point in improved imp, and even that may be better off in Intensity or maybe even CoEx. 3/3 improved imp is not possible with a viable build. The tank will live with 14 less stamina better than you managing with 2% less shadow damage to the raid if you take out malediction, 2% less damage reduction if you drop points from shadow embrace or if you lose range by dropping either of the range talents (range=survivability+dps).

Even if for some reason you have such insane gear (T6++) that malediction/ruin becomes a better build for DPS, then having to pick ruin means you're at the exact same position. In fact, you'll have 2 free points instead of 1, but will only have 2/5 contagion (3% less damage to corruption - remember to take that into account when comparing UA to ruin on the spreadsheet!).

Bottom line if you think an affliction warlock should have improved imp, you probably didn't look at the talent calculator carefully enough, or just don't care about anything other than 14 more stamina on the tank. Note that I say 14 becuase if you really want improved imp you can put your last point in there having 1/3 which already gives 7s tam out of the 21 you'd get from 3/3 improved imp.

This is how I usually do a raid focused affliction build

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

(tiers 1-3 subject to change)

I've yet to see any fights where more than 1/2 points in each of the ranged talents is all that crucial. Anything you'd want to avoid usually has a max range of around 30yrds.
#1717SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Varbaro
shadow vs fire destro after 2.4

With 1k spelldmg ( just change it to another one)

Shadow and Flame(20%) & Emberstorm(10%) & CoS/CoE ( 10% - w/o Malediction - 13%) & Shadow Weaving (10%) / Imp. Scorch (15%) & Misery (5%)

Shadowbolt
((541-603) + (1000*0.81*1.2))/*1.1/1.13)*1.1)*1.05 = 1922.26/1974.69-2001/2055.6 (653.8/671.7 DPS w/o Bane and 784.6/806 DPS with Bane)
Incinerate (/w Immol. up)
((555-642) + (1000*0.71)*1.2)*1.10)/*1.1/1.13)*1.15)*1.05 = 2055.7/2111.8-2125.8/2242.3 (836.3/870.8 DPS)

With ISB buff (20%).
((541-603) + (1000*x)*y)*1.2) = 2306.7/2369.6 - 2401.2/2466.7 ( 784.6/806 w/o Bane 821.56/967.2 with Bane)

After 2.4 incinerate cast time will 2.25sec with 5/5 Emberstorm.
Formula same, DPS: (941.5/967.5 DPS)

So max DPS after 2.4 with all:
SB - 967.2
Inci - 967.5

UPDATE
I re edited all, because i counted wrong!

Last edited by Varbaro : 02/29/08 at 1:19 PM.
#1718SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rochan
It's sort of pointless to compare at 1k spell damage. Apparently SB does 967 dps. In raids I can do 2300 dps & have 1700 spell damage.

Really, Leulier's spreadsheet should be all you need. Though it's hard to input the effect of immolate, as keeping it up will be annoying and a drain on your overall dps.
#1719SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Immolate actually should have a higher DPCT than Incinerate when you spec into fire. So it's a DPS increase to use it yourself.
#1720SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Presarc
Originally Posted by Mugorim View Post
This is how I usually do a raid focused affliction build

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

(tiers 1-3 subject to change)

I've yet to see any fights where more than 1/2 points in each of the ranged talents is all that crucial. Anything you'd want to avoid usually has a max range of around 30yrds.
Does anyone know whether or not Ruin > UA or not? I see a lot of raid DPS affliction builds going either way, and I would think that ruin would be better, but am unsure how to plug in the numbers into leulier or anything else.
#1721SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Presarc View Post
Does anyone know whether or not Ruin > UA or not? I see a lot of raid DPS affliction builds going either way, and I would think that ruin would be better, but am unsure how to plug in the numbers into leulier or anything else.
1) Set all your gear, buffs, talents and spellcasts.
2) Check ruin dps by removing UA from casts and setting Ruin to 1. Note DPS somewhere.
3) Check UA dps by adding UA to casts and setting Ruin to 0. Note DPS somewhere.
4) Compare the two numbers.
#1722SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Roywyn
Originally Posted by Varbaro View Post
UPDATE
I re edited all, because i counted wrong!
Shadow Bolt has a 86% coefficent, 106% with SnF. Incinerate has a 71% coefficient, 91% with SnF.
So, it's still all wrong Try Leulier's spreadsheet.

As for UA vs. Ruin - UA is better at early gear levels, Ruin better at later gear levels. Reason being that Ruin scales better with at least crit, haste, hit.
Do what the above poster said. Making 2 copies of a sheet is a good idea as well, you can spec UA in one and Ruin in the second. Or compare gear choices.

Last edited by Roywyn : 02/29/08 at 3:52 PM.
#1723SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Presarc
Assuming 1200 shadow damage, 16% hit, 20% crit, UA is better than Ruin by a factor of 2.53% dps (1317 vs 1283) assuming full-duration on all dots and CoA.

Assuming 1500 shadow damage, 1300 fire damage, 16% hit, 20% crit, UA is better than Ruin by a factor of 2.25% dps (1532 vs 1497) assuming full-duration on all dots and CoA.

So it looks like for you affliction warlocks, no matter how well-geared, UA is the way to go over Ruin.

EDIT: Just to be complete, I changed the crit chance from 20% to 25%, and the respective percentages (instead of what they are above) were 1.01% and 0.78% in favor of UA.

Changing the crit percentage to 30% and assuming 16% hit and 1200 or 1500s/1300f damage, Ruin finally took the cake, but it would be difficult as affliction to gear this high into crit without the help of backlash and still maintaining 1500 shadow damage.

If someone could double-check my numbers, that would be good.

Last edited by Presarc : 02/29/08 at 4:40 PM.
#1724SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Necrostar
Originally Posted by Presarc View Post
Assuming 1200 shadow damage, 16% hit, 20% crit, UA is better than Ruin by a factor of 2.53% dps (1317 vs 1283) assuming full-duration on all dots and CoA.

Assuming 1500 shadow damage, 1300 fire damage, 16% hit, 20% crit, UA is better than Ruin by a factor of 2.25% dps (1532 vs 1497) assuming full-duration on all dots and CoA.

So it looks like for you affliction warlocks, no matter how well-geared, UA is the way to go over Ruin.
w/o actually digging through the spreadsheet I have to say this cannot be accurate. I have no idea how your coming to that conclusion, but even 1000 shadow damage , 16% hit , 20% crit would blow away uA .

Obviously what makes Ruin so much better than uA is hit & if your hit capped it's almost a given that Ruin will overtake uA.
#1725SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Stryn
Originally Posted by Necrostar View Post
w/o actually digging through the spreadsheet I have to say this cannot be accurate. I have no idea how your coming to that conclusion, but even 1000 shadow damage , 16% hit , 20% crit would blow away uA .

Obviously what makes Ruin so much better than uA is hit & if your hit capped it's almost a given that Ruin will overtake uA.
Plugging the numbers you presented in the spreadsheet:

40/0/21 spec (Ruin): 1176.28
43/0/18 spec (Raid UA): 1211.95

So no, you're wrong. In the future, check your work before you go off spouting misinformation please.

Last edited by Stryn : 02/29/08 at 5:02 PM. Reason: Clarification
#1726SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Stryn View Post
Plugging the numbers you presented in the spreadsheet:

40/0/21 spec (Ruin): 1176.28
43/0/18 spec (Raid UA): 1211.95

So no, you're wrong. In the future, check your work before you go off spouting misinformation please.
One isn't better than the other at all gear levels, just check the sheet for yourself. Ruin scales better with crit and haste than UA, so at some gear/raid-buff levels it can be better. Those gear levels exist in 2.3 and will be significantly easier to reach in 2.4.
#1727SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Kyth
Originally Posted by Akj View Post
I think a lot of players are missing the difference between the current version & the PTR version.

Both versions scale (current - 80% of sdmg, ptr - 20% of max hp)
Both versions cause an increasing hp penalty per lifetap as you gear up ( damage & stamina both increase as one moves up the tiers)
Both versions scale with buffs (fort, wrath of air, flasks..)

The difference is that the current version has a direct correlation between hp lost & mp gained whereas the PTR version scales off two independent stats. Its like taxing someone based on hours worked but paying them based on the hours spent watching TV.
No, I'm not missing it, I'm just touching on a point I didn't make clear:

Go look at the gear between the tiers. Mana scales very very little, and sometimes negatively, between tiersets (and actually tends to drop once you hit tiered gear off your levelling gear as well.) The basic stats really do not change that much. +dmg, however, increases substantially from "just hit 70" to "Illidan dead for 6 months."

Just go look at the mana pools of T5 locks versus the mana pools of T6 locks and then come back and try to say that there is no scaling difference. (Heck, T4->T5 is actually a *loss* in lifetap time-efficiency due to mana decreasing if you look at the sets.)
#1728SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Stryn
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
One isn't better than the other at all gear levels, just check the sheet for yourself. Ruin scales better with crit and haste than UA, so at some gear/raid-buff levels it can be better. Those gear levels exist in 2.3 and will be significantly easier to reach in 2.4.
You're correct. I was correcting the point made that ruin "blew away UA" once the player is hit capped, which makes no sense.
#1729SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bandoer
If the spreadsheet gives only a minimal theorycraft edge for UA, I would go with Ruin.

- You get more direct damage. Less loss from dots not going to full duration, whether dots are pushed off, fight mechanics end dots, or the fight duration is ending and you shouldn't reapply dots.
- More ISB procs from casting shadowbolt instead of UA
#1730SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Necrostar
Originally Posted by Bandoer View Post
If the spreadsheet gives only a minimal theorycraft edge for UA, I would go with Ruin.

- You get more direct damage. Less loss from dots not going to full duration, whether dots are pushed off, fight mechanics end dots, or the fight duration is ending and you shouldn't reapply dots.
- More ISB procs from casting shadowbolt instead of UA
This man speaks the truth
#1731SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Presarc
Originally Posted by Bandoer View Post
If the spreadsheet gives only a minimal theorycraft edge for UA, I would go with Ruin.

- You get more direct damage. Less loss from dots not going to full duration, whether dots are pushed off, fight mechanics end dots, or the fight duration is ending and you shouldn't reapply dots.
- More ISB procs from casting shadowbolt instead of UA
Agreed. If UA gave some form of raid utility it would be worth it, but it doesn't, so even regardless of the marginal increase in dps until extreme (unreachable?) gear levels are reached from UA, Ruin is still probably the better choice.
#1732SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Necrostar
Originally Posted by Presarc View Post
Agreed. If UA gave some form of raid utility it would be worth it, but it doesn't, so even regardless of the marginal increase in dps until extreme (unreachable?) gear levels are reached from UA, Ruin is still probably the better choice.

Exactly , there is only so much the spreadsheet can mimic ... There are certain game mechanics that cannot be truly represented in a theorycraft spreadsheet.

ISB is the kicker here.

What I meant in particular about "hit" was it's an extremely vital stat that drives Ruin > uA . Well, that and crit / haste. I could have worded it better.
#1733SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Maybe it's just personal preference here, as it can't really be proven without posting a couple dozen videos of various people of different ranges, but my experience is that every bit of range you can get is a significant increase to both your DPS and survivability. Having that much bigger area where you can be and still DPS the boss is just *that* useful. If I could drop the tank's HP by 1k and give everyone in the raid a couple extra yards range on all their abilities I would probably do it on a couple fights. But yeah on some fights giving up the range (and threat reduction, which is a different discussion although I agree your tank should be good enough to hold threat off of an affliction warlock regardless..) in order to grab that improved imp. But improved imp is definitely not an obvoius talent to pick up, considering the big loss of not having full range (and a little more threat reduction).
#1734SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Idk
Originally Posted by Bandoer View Post
If the spreadsheet gives only a minimal theorycraft edge for UA, I would go with Ruin.

- You get more direct damage. Less loss from dots not going to full duration, whether dots are pushed off, fight mechanics end dots, or the fight duration is ending and you shouldn't reapply dots.
- More ISB procs from casting shadowbolt instead of UA
The statement "more ISB procs from casting shadowbolt" is a generalization and incomplete. It should be, "a ruin-specced affliction lock provides more ISB procs from casting more shadowbolts but consumes more ISB charges for the same reason." The percentage contribution to ISB (whether it's positive or negative) depends on the crit of the affliction lock, the number and crit chance of the other locks in the raid, as well as the number of shadow priests and how often they're consuming charges.

One incidental that you left out is that UA provides more damage than ruin in any situation where you're killing more than 1 thing at a time and each thing lives for more than ~18 seconds.

Bottom line (I can't understand why people don't get this) there isn't a spec that's generically and unquestionably _better_. It varies highly depending on the situation and the make-up of your raid. Fortunately we have this awesome spreadsheet by Bolche/Leulier that can tell us how to quantify most of these variables.
#1735SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Akj
Originally Posted by Kyth View Post
No, I'm not missing it, I'm just touching on a point I didn't make clear:

Go look at the gear between the tiers. Mana scales very very little, and sometimes negatively, between tiersets (and actually tends to drop once you hit tiered gear off your levelling gear as well.) The basic stats really do not change that much. +dmg, however, increases substantially from "just hit 70" to "Illidan dead for 6 months."

Just go look at the mana pools of T5 locks versus the mana pools of T6 locks and then come back and try to say that there is no scaling difference. (Heck, T4->T5 is actually a *loss* in lifetap time-efficiency due to mana decreasing if you look at the sets.)
Well maybe they do not want us to scale so much with a stat that increases rapidly (shadow damage) because it will spiral out of control in WotLK. There was also mention of making gear more generic in the recent blizzcast so maybe they want to itemize lock, mage & spriest gear in the same way.

Regardless, my argument all along is that if they do wish to change the current version then the scaling should happen off one attribute to keep cost & returns proportional (either 15% of max hp to equivalent mp, 15% of mp for equivalent hp but not 15% of max hp to 15% of max mana as on PTR).
#1736SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
In general due to how much ISB shadow priests are eating up, most realistic crit chances will put ISB up more than they eat it. The only time you'll be eating more than you put up is if you have no shadow priests and you have lower crit than the average shadowbolt crit in your raid, or if your crit rediculessly low, which it isn't if you're even thinking about aff/ruin, which does require very very high levels of gear to outperform UA, unlike full destruction which doesn't require much at all to outperform both specs - full crafted+kara+badge gear with proper gems should be enough to beat an affliction warlock with same gear available even if he tunes it for affliction.

As for more raid DPS because of ruin, dropping UA from your rotation will not be a major ISB increase, and even with the ISB increase you still need some pretty insnae gear to make ruin better than UA.

For actual numbers please use the speadsheet (should be linked in main post), it allows you to take all of these factors into account and see for yourselves.
#1737SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Idk
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
In general due to how much ISB shadow priests are eating up, most realistic crit chances will put ISB up more than they eat it. The only time you'll be eating more than you put up is if you have no shadow priests and you have lower crit than the average shadowbolt crit in your raid, or if your crit rediculessly low, which it isn't if you're even thinking about aff/ruin, which does require very very high levels of gear to outperform UA, unlike full destruction which doesn't require much at all to outperform both specs - full crafted+kara+badge gear with proper gems should be enough to beat an affliction warlock with same gear available even if he tunes it for affliction.

As for more raid DPS because of ruin, dropping UA from your rotation will not be a major ISB increase, and even with the ISB increase you still need some pretty insnae gear to make ruin better than UA.
I totally agree with this. Unfortunately, the unknowledgeable lock who's coming here for the first time may not know what that threshold (insane gear) is.. I worry they'll read something like "more shadowbolts means more ISB procs, therefore ruin > UA" which is simply too generic to be accurate.
#1738SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Marklar
Originally Posted by Nfariessence View Post
So, assuming that the 20% max health for 20% max mana change goes live, does this mean that [Ember Skyfire Diamond] becomes a viable replacement for [Chaotic Skyfire Diamond]? Can someone better than me (and who has full access to the armory/WoW at the moment) do the math on this.

~ Chaotic gives you 14 crit rating and 3% more crit damage. I have about 25% crit from gear and 1500 spell damage self buffed. My observed crit rate is something around 33% with an elemental shaman and 1650ish spell damage while raid buffed, and my SB crits usually range from 6.5k - 9k (yes I get freak 11k crits as well, but it's not a common occurrence). That means I get 0.63% more crit and my crits hit for ~232 more damage, right?

~ Ember gives you 14 straight up spell damage, which itemizes better than crit on a point-for-point basis, but it also gives us 2% more Int which means about 46 more mana per life tap, or a free SB every 10 taps.

This is slightly further complicated by the fact that the color gem requirements of the Ember are much friendlier than they are on Chaotic. If I switched to Ember I could trade out the 2 [Glowing Shadowsong Amethyst]s that I have for 2 more [Runed Crimson Spinel]s for an extra 12 spell damage.
You have a major flaw here in equating extra mana with extra shadowbolts. The major cost of a shadowbolt is cast time, not mana.

A warlock with 600 int buffed has ~11.5k mana. The gem will only add 12 int for 180 mana. This means your LT frequency goes down about 1.6%. Assuming 5 SB (2k mana) per LT, you are tapping about 11% of the time, so it saves you approximately 0.17% on casting time, which is worth ~2.7 haste rating. The crit bonus is ~0.15%, which is worth ~3 crit rating.

So with a total bonus worth perhaps 14 damage, 3 crit and 3 haste, I don't see it competing with CSD.
#1739SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3PSGarak
Whether more SBs leads to more ISB is really a matter of whether your shadowpriests cast DD nukes or not. I don't know what the situation or cutoff in that is anymore, but you used to not see much spriest direct nuking in T5. But if they don't nuke, a ruin build without backlash is at least 3% crit less than a destro build (5% than a demo/destro build) even with the same gear, so you would be dragging ISB uptime down, in the name of bringing it up. As an aff/ruin build, if you're concerned about ISB uptime you should prioritize crit over haste, compared to a destro warlock.

The arguement for ruin also leaves off the fact that UA continues to tick when you can't nuke, like movement, LoS, or CC components interfere. So realistically, deviations from an ideal brick-wall scenario favor as well as hurt UA.
#1740SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
The arguement for ruin also leaves off the fact that UA continues to tick when you can't nuke, like movement, LoS, or CC components interfere. So realistically, deviations from an ideal brick-wall scenario favor as well as hurt UA.
That argument goes both ways. If you have to move and UA is not up, you suffer more from the dot-gap.
#1741SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3nimo956
Raid dps vs. Personal DPS

I'm a 21/40 lock and I'm having trouble determining how to gauge my contribution to raid dps. For example, I have the Crusader card, the icon, and the sextant trinkets. For raids with a lot of warlocks and spriests I usually wear the Crusader with the Sextant, putting my crit up to like 32%. Is this contributing more to my raid though than if I went purely with +dmg? (Also, i have around 1200 dmg and max hit)
#1742SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Necrostar
I'd say more spell damage , Icon / Card
#1743SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morwen
Originally Posted by nimo956 View Post
I'm a 21/40 lock and I'm having trouble determining how to gauge my contribution to raid dps. For example, I have the Crusader card, the icon, and the sextant trinkets. For raids with a lot of warlocks and spriests I usually wear the Crusader with the Sextant, putting my crit up to like 32%. Is this contributing more to my raid though than if I went purely with +dmg? (Also, i have around 1200 dmg and max hit)
The spreadsheet has a simulator for raid ISB uptime where you can input the number of warlocks and shadow priests in your raid and their dps and crit frequencies and use that to calculate the next-stat value of your personal crit.
#1744SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by nimo956 View Post
I'm a 21/40 lock and I'm having trouble determining how to gauge my contribution to raid dps. For example, I have the Crusader card, the icon, and the sextant trinkets. For raids with a lot of warlocks and spriests I usually wear the Crusader with the Sextant, putting my crit up to like 32%. Is this contributing more to my raid though than if I went purely with +dmg? (Also, i have around 1200 dmg and max hit)
Crusade is probably better, except in Hyjal (it procs off SoC crits).
#1745SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by nimo956 View Post
I'm a 21/40 lock and I'm having trouble determining how to gauge my contribution to raid dps. For example, I have the Crusader card, the icon, and the sextant trinkets. For raids with a lot of warlocks and spriests I usually wear the Crusader with the Sextant, putting my crit up to like 32%. Is this contributing more to my raid though than if I went purely with +dmg? (Also, i have around 1200 dmg and max hit)
Crusade is better, except in Hyjal (sextant procs off SoC crits). Besides, crit is better when aoeing, since you're typically aoe capped. Leulier's sheet or ShadowSeer will answer it for you.

Hmm, apparently I clicked too fast, resulting in a double post. I can't seem to delete it, though.
#1746SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Flamingcloud
UA vs Ruin? did we return to march? It was concluded back then UA was better, plus 9 out of 10 smart warlocks wouldn't even have 16% hit as affliction (only those with gul'dan have any hope of this)

"If the spreadsheet gives only a minimal theorycraft edge for UA, I would go with Ruin."

Agreed. Except that it gives more than a minimal theorycraft edge, ergo Ruin is not the way to go..
#1747SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pentamorfi
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
UA vs Ruin? did we return to march? It was concluded back then UA was better, plus 9 out of 10 smart warlocks wouldn't even have 16% hit as affliction (only those with gul'dan have any hope of this)
I don't quite understand what you mean by that. I've been affliction for ages now (only recently respeced to destro with 4/5 t6 and the likes, no skull) and I've been hit capped for about as long.
#1748SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Evidicus
I haven't seen this specific discussion yet, but has anyone thought about the upgraded Alchemist Stone for casters coming in the next patch? http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...hemystones.jpg

Sorcerer's Alchemist Stone
Equip: Spell Hit +54
Equip: +40% effect from mana and healing potions

Considering the new Life Tap changes, the high hit cap for Destro, and the fact that you only need a lot of hit or to drink mana potions on boss fights, I am tempted to pursue Alchemy for this trinket. I can see swapping this trinket in for boss fights and then swapping it out on trash.

Just looking for some opinions as it looked like an interesting item that offered some unique utility.
#1749SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3PSGarak
At the very least, it allows you to gear for having an elemental shaman and only swap out one piece of gear if he's missing. I have no idea how the bonus mana regen compares to mana spring, but that's another possiblity. Also note, you can get the healer one, which is a surprisingly unretarded choice: 119 heal means 40 damage. 40 damage obviously isn't worth a trinket slot, but 40 damage and the mana regen might be.
#1750SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morakk
The trinkets gives you 960 mana per potion.

Exactly how much DPS that's worth in 2.4 depends on the size of your mana pool, but it's approximately 1/2 a life tap, or .3 shadow bolts/minute (before haste).

Also, will it be possible to swap to a lvl 70 green staff of int, with 30 int on it, and the badge wand with an epic int gem, to maximize the mana gained from life tap? CasterWeaponSwapper can do something similar for mages evocating for instance. However, lifetap is instant, so I'm not sure that it's possible to have the gcd incurred from switching weapons stack with the gcd from casting lifetap itself, and still get the benefit of the additional intellect.
#1751SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Lieuler's spreadsheet will easily account for the extra DPS you get from mana regen (assuming you set everything properly especially fight duration).
#1752SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Cerebro
Good day EJ community !!

It is my first time posting here and i would like to start of by saying that i am really bad in the math part of theory crafting etc. Hence the reason i turn to you guys. I have a small question regarding my talent spec. Since Karazhan i've always been an UA-warlock and doing very well with this spec. Even deep into t6 i am still UA, for the simple reason i like the playstyle more then a classic 0/21/40 spec.

But because of yesterdays browsing through the forums i started to think that RUIN might be more beneficial for the raid then UA, but that means i might have to make some gear changes, since atm as an UA-warlock i always fully focussed on Spell Hit > Spell Dmg and nothing more. Now with RUIN i would have to add Spell crit to that.

The guild i am in is flooded with warlocks and our general rule is that they must spec they do best dmg with. So we have some RUIN locks who specced malediction, some shadow destro warlocks and some UA-warlocks. It is a semi-casual guild sorta speak =) In general my warlock CO who is RUIN and myself who is UA are topping the dmg meters. (fight depended as well ofc)

So first i would like to give some information about my character.

Cerebro - Gnome Warlock - Member of RECKLESS - Chromaggus EU.
First my old spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (classic UA spec)
My new Ruin spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (classic RUIN spec)

My Armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory

Stats:
1393 Shadow Dmg ( In combat with darkmoon trinket fully procced)
203 Spell hit rating (16.09%)
11.87% Crit chance (plus 5/5 Devastation)

Level of Progress: Illidari Council at the moment.

My concern is that my crit rating is way to low for RUIN to out dps my UA-spec. Since i always fully focussed on dmg instead of crit.

Now my questions are;

1. Are these stats good enough for RUIN?
2. If not, Is it wise to change any gems to make it more suitable for RUIN?
3. Any general tips on how to improve my gear to make it more suitable for RUIN.

So far i only have the cloak and the wrist from t6 content because i was in-active for some time because of the birth of my daughter, but now i am back, so any suggestion for gear swaps are welcome as well. My current aim lies at the off hand from Rage.

I hope to get some tips from you guys,
Thanks in advance,
Regards.
#1753SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vazu
Any Affliction build that doesn't include UA isn't a raiding build.
Any Destruction build that doesn't include 5/5 S&F isn't a raiding build.

Those are two pretty simple rules to go by. It may be boring, but it's true. As far as gear goes, if you're on Council, I'll assume you are also killing Archimonde. Which generally means you should have good enough gear to go Destro, assuming you've been there since the beginning.
#1754SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Eph
1. Look at the spreadsheet, change your specs in it and see what wins out.
2. Gem for +dmg, unless meeting a meta requirement.
3. I can't see your armory at the moment so no specific suggestions there.

Personally I'd gain ~40 dps by choosing Ruin over UA if I were to go Affliction. However, it is a 300-400dps loss from Destruction.

Last edited by Eph : 03/01/08 at 9:51 AM.
#1755SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Madlax
Going with 12000 base mana, 6 minute dps circle of Immolate/Incinerate casts, no mp5 and always getting healed from taps:
1911 DPS - 16 taps

With 3 mana pots
1924 DPS - 14 taps

With trinket on top(same stats)
1937 DPS - 13 taps

hope that helps some of your theorycrafts for the trinket
#1756SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
If you're destruction there is no reason to gem for damage over hit if you're not capped - but yeah for affliction gems=dmg.

As for ruin I think enough had been said already. Look at the spreadsheet and find out what's most likely to be true - that you do not have the gear to make ruin affliction better than UA. Saying that affliction without UA isn't a raiding build is ignorant though, as there actually are people that have everything they could possibly wish for in the game and for them ruin is definitely better than UA if you force them to get 5/5 shadow embrace (or else they would've specced 0/21/40 like every self-respecting dps warlock that isn't required to spec shadow embrace).
#1757SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Some theorycraft about fire 2.4 locks and haste:

Note that this only applies in the case of a single lock raid due to the immolate debuff. In the event you have multiple fire locks, somebody's immolate is bound to be up.

Our new immolate/incinerate cycle operates much like a mage's scorch/fireball cycle, with the first attack debuffing the mob as a setup for the primary attack. The key difference is that we cannot renew our 'debuff' early without penalty (DoT clipping), and unless conflag is tremendously buffed, we cannot clear the debuff and restart the cycle without penalty.

The nature of the immolate debuff is also static. It lasts a flat 15 seconds.

With 0 haste, you can fit a perfect 1:6 rotation in a 15 second timeframe:

0.0 seconds: Cast immolate
1.5 seconds: immolate hits
next 13.5 seconds: Cast 6 incinerates
15 seconds: Cast immolate:
16.5 seconds: Immolate expires, new immolate hits

And so on.

As you add haste, you have extra time in the 15 second window. The problem is that that time isn't long enough for a 7th debuffed incinerate. You can obviously lifetap if needed and restart the cycle, or use the weakened incinerate cast.

So my question is: Is haste going to truly scale linearly (or approximately so on the range of acquirable gear), or are we going to see haste 'breakpoints' in which marginal gains are amplified due to the ability to move to a 1:7 or 1:8 cycle?
#1758SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Presarc
That's a great point, and really another feather in shadow's hat. I'm lazy, but do you know the exact amount of haste needed to make it a 1:7 or 1:8 cycle?
#1759SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Madlax
Depends on your haste gear and your mana pool as well as regen.
The total thing is HARD to picture, since you´d have to calculate in a bunch of factors but I can try putting the easy version down:

As you stated, but 2.25 cast time:
1.5 immolate hits
3.75 IC
6 IC
8.25 IC
10.5 IC
12.75 IC
15 IC
16.5 immolate runs out
(17.25 IC)

You would want to cast another Immolate at 15.1 in such a cycle.

Mana cost: 445 + 6/7x355 // *0.95 with cataclysm
422 + 6x337 = 2445 mana
Means, if you sit at ~12225 mana you fit into that circle, just that you miss 1.x seconds for a Life Tap to make it perfect at this point.
150 haste(no lag)
1.37 Immolated 5112
3.42 Hit 3381
5.47 Crit 6838
7.52 Hit 3362
9.58 Crit 6597
11.63 Crit 6561
13.68 Hit 3302
15.74 Potential 7th hit
16.37 Immolate stops burning here
The 6th hit + Tap Time(1.37) + Immolate cast time(1.37) need to be > 16.37
16,42 > 16.37, so yes that works.

Trying to fit a 7th Incinerate in that circle:
2782 mana required, that would be 13905 mana(without any mp5 regen!)
400 haste:
1.2 Immolated 3837
3.0 Crit 6795
4.8 Hit 3272
6.59 Hit 3338
8.38 Hit 3413
10.18 Crit 6660
11.97 Hit 3293
13.77 Crit 6663
15.56 Potential 8th hit
16.2 Immolate stops burning here
13.77 + 2x1.2 = 16.17
So at 400 haste, without calcing any lag, you´re almost managing a 7th IC in the circle.

400 haste realistic to achieve?
Top Sunwell raiding gear gives you very very close to 400 haste(with JC neck), gemmed with haste/dam and 2 blue gems only.
Is the 2781 mana/cycle achievable?
Well 12000 mana isn´t too much of a problem with TOP sunwell gear again.
The 337 additional mana in this 15 seconds cycle would mean you need to get 112 mp5 from another source. Spriest, JoW or whatever.

My 3 cents again
#1760SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Soul
Originally Posted by Morakk View Post
Also, will it be possible to swap to a lvl 70 green staff of int, with 30 int on it, and the badge wand with an epic int gem, to maximize the mana gained from life tap? CasterWeaponSwapper can do something similar for mages evocating for instance. However, lifetap is instant, so I'm not sure that it's possible to have the gcd incurred from switching weapons stack with the gcd from casting lifetap itself, and still get the benefit of the additional intellect.
That would add at least one GCD to every bout of lifetapping you do. I'm not sure if haste affects the cooldown incurred when you swap weapons, but if it does not, then it's even worse.
#1761SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3PSGarak
Depending the DPCT of immolate, and how it scales with crit and haste, it might be advantageous to assign a single immolate-bitch for a gaggle of fire-destro warlocks. Choosing which one is an interesting discussion: most damage, or least crit, or what?

As far as how it scale with haste, by doing your necessary lifetapping in the middle of the cycle instead of on the ends, you can shave multiples of three-quarters of a second, pre-haste, modulo 2.25, off the cycle and still have it fit perfectly. You're right in that there will be breakpoints where you don't actually get additional spells (or rather, you lose a tick of immolate by refreshing early if that's preferable), but they're finer than the breakpoints to a 1:7 cycle.
#1762SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3weet
Originally Posted by Vazu View Post
Any Affliction build that doesn't include UA isn't a raiding build.
Can people stop posting this as it is incorrect at high gear levels assuming single target. Even before including raid ISB benefit of more sb casts with high crit chance.

Just increases the amount of people who will go back to their guild and say 'Some guy on EJ said this' assuming it is always correct.
#1763SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Madlax
Just wanted to add another thing before someone asks:
Any relation from growing spellhaste to amounts of taps needed?
12000 mana + 0 haste: 18 taps
12000 mana + 50 haste: 19 taps
12000 mana + 150 haste: 20 taps
12000 mana + 200 haste: 21 taps
12000 mana + 300 haste: 22 taps
12000 mana + 350 haste: 23 taps
12000 mana + 400 haste: 23 taps
Again note: These are calculated cycles for a 360 seconds duration, no mp5 regen involved and from a self written(yet x times checked) program.
#1764SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Eph
Originally Posted by Madlax View Post
Just wanted to add another thing before someone asks:
Any relation from growing spellhaste to amounts of taps needed?
12000 mana + 0 haste: 18 taps
12000 mana + 50 haste: 19 taps
12000 mana + 150 haste: 20 taps
12000 mana + 200 haste: 21 taps
12000 mana + 300 haste: 22 taps
12000 mana + 350 haste: 23 taps
12000 mana + 400 haste: 23 taps
Again note: These are calculated cycles for a 360 seconds duration, no mp5 regen involved and from a self written(yet x times checked) program.
In this scenario the amount of Life Taps per 6 minutes doesn't mean a lot (unless you are thinking about healing received.) The Life Tap to damage dealt ratio should remain the same with haste if there is no other source of mana regen. Haste should only see diminishing returns in relation to mana consumption when taking Shadow Priests, Blessing of Wisdom, Mana Totems, or Super Mana Potions into account. I'd be interested in seeing numbers related to that.
#1765SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Krazen
Originally Posted by Presarc View Post
That's a great point, and really another feather in shadow's hat. I'm lazy, but do you know the exact amount of haste needed to make it a 1:7 or 1:8 cycle?
Yep, I have it barely. You need a 2.14 second incinerate to fit 7 in a 15 second window.

Keep in mind that a cycle can vary in length, slightly. You can recast immolate before it expires, trying to land it right as the previous one expires, or you can try to squeeze in that last incinerate, let immolate drop off, and recast it then.

For example, I've done some Dr. Boom testing with a 1:7 cycle, and a 2.12 second cast.

0.0 seconds: Cast immolate
1.38 seconds: immolate hits
next 14.84 seconds: Cast 7 incinerates
16.22 seconds: Cast immolate
16.38 seconds: Immolate falls off
17.60 seconds: Immolate hits

Thus, my cycle is 16.22 seconds rather than 15 seconds, but I do get the extra cast in theory. In practice, its a random chance as to whether I get the 7th cast with the bonus damage. Of course, I do lose a little over a second of immolate uptime per cycle.

But there are 2 options for lifetapping: a shorter cycle aiming for maximum immolate uptime, or a longer cycle aiming for that extra incinerate.

Including Lifetap at the end of the cycle:

0.0 seconds: Cast immolate
1.38 seconds: immolate hits
next 14.84 seconds: Cast 7 incinerates
16.22 seconds: Lifetap
16.38 seconds: Immolate falls off
17.60 seconds: Cast immolate
18.98: immolate hits

Or, including Lifetap mid cycle:

0.0 seconds: Cast immolate
1.38 seconds: immolate hits
next 12.72 seconds: Cast 6 incinerates
14.1 seconds: Lifetap
15.48: Cast immolate
16.38 Immolate falls off
16.86: Immolate hits



On my 2.4 spreadsheet, the 7 cast cycle comes out to 2099 dps, while the 6 cast one comes out to 2087 dps. Of course, it also uses more mana, as you are lifetapping less often.








In response to PSGarak: I cannot imagine any reasonable gearset in which immolate's DPCT is less than incinerate, assuming you have the 10% talent.

Last edited by Krazen : 03/01/08 at 10:06 PM.
#1766SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morakk
Originally Posted by Soul View Post
That would add at least one GCD to every bout of lifetapping you do. I'm not sure if haste affects the cooldown incurred when you swap weapons, but if it does not, then it's even worse.
I know that doing them separately would incur an extra GCD; that's why I asked if it was possible to do it with the GCDs stacked, perhaps with a macro like

/equip Greens of Int
/use Life Tap

and then switch back to normal weapons on the next SB cast.

I'd test this myself, but my efforts to log on to the PTR have all failed.
#1767SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Morakk View Post
I know that doing them separately would incur an extra GCD; that's why I asked if it was possible to do it with the GCDs stacked, perhaps with a macro like

/equip Greens of Int
/use Life Tap

and then switch back to normal weapons on the next SB cast.

I'd test this myself, but my efforts to log on to the PTR have all failed.
Uh, you can swap weapon, offhand, ranged slots without any cooldowns at all. Mages had been using the spirit weapon + evocation trick for a while, before it became int based. Warriors can swap to sword&board and a tank gun without any cooldowns incurred. Did they change it on the PTR?
#1768SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morakk
Yeah I was being dumb, there is no cooldown on swapping weapons.

I am still curious, does swapping to int weapons with a macro during the lifetap give you the benefit of the extra intellect?

If it does, you would gain 187 mana going from Tempest of Chaos + Chronicle of Dark Secrets + I forget what the Solarian wand is called, to [Ascendant's Scepter] of intellect w/ int enchant + [Draenei Crystal Rod] of int + [Carved Witch Doctor's Stick] with a 10 int gem, with kings and fel intellect.
#1769SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Spuncan
Swapping weapons while in combat does activate the GCD.

Adding it up, for me currently, swapping in INT-heavy weapons ([Amani Divining Staff] and a [Carved Witch Doctor's Stick]) would give about 300 more Mana back from a Life Tap. While you can mitigate the switch-back GCD by placing the swap after a Shadowbolt cast in a macro, I think the single 1.5 second GCD would be a greater loss than the extra 300 or so mana.
#1770SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morakk
But if you switch weapons at the same time as you lifetap, there's no extra cooldown.
#1771SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Anedris
Because lifetap is an instant, I'm not sure you can manage it. Consider:

/cast lifetap
/equip <int weapons>

Presumably this would fail since you would lifetap before swapping weapons, thus defeating the point of the exercise. Alternatively:

/equip <int weapons>
/cast lifetap

I believe the weapon swap will activate the GCD, thus preventing you from lifetapping for 1.5 seconds.

Weapon swapping with cast time spells works because spell damage is calculated at the completion of the cast, so you can begin the cast and then swap weapons. Lifetap being an instant means that this is impossible, because lifetap "casts" the moment you begin the cast (i.e., when you press the button).

I haven't actually tested this, so if someone has do correct me, but I believe that's the problem.
#1772SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morakk
For what it's worth, I just tested on my priest on live, and doing something similar to that does affect the healing done by my renew.

Off topic, but has anyone else had problems logging on to the PTR after transferring a second character?
#1773SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Eph
Originally Posted by Anedris View Post
I haven't actually tested this, so if someone has do correct me, but I believe that's the problem.
Just tried it, doesn't look like it'll work for Life Tap.
#1774SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3moghed
Originally Posted by Presarc View Post
Assuming 1200 shadow damage, 16% hit, 20% crit, UA is better than Ruin by a factor of 2.53% dps (1317 vs 1283) assuming full-duration on all dots and CoA.

Assuming 1500 shadow damage, 1300 fire damage, 16% hit, 20% crit, UA is better than Ruin by a factor of 2.25% dps (1532 vs 1497) assuming full-duration on all dots and CoA.

So it looks like for you affliction warlocks, no matter how well-geared, UA is the way to go over Ruin.

EDIT: Just to be complete, I changed the crit chance from 20% to 25%, and the respective percentages (instead of what they are above) were 1.01% and 0.78% in favor of UA.

Changing the crit percentage to 30% and assuming 16% hit and 1200 or 1500s/1300f damage, Ruin finally took the cake, but it would be difficult as affliction to gear this high into crit without the help of backlash and still maintaining 1500 shadow damage.

If someone could double-check my numbers, that would be good.
What kind of dot gap were you using? I've found that the average dot gap is the reason that Ruin overtakes UA with higher levels of gear. Not having as many dots to cast means you lose less damage due to this. It's also a good reason to have someone with marginal destruction gear switch TO destruction. It's just simply easier to play.
#1775SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Originally Posted by Spuncan View Post
Swapping weapons while in combat does activate the GCD.

Adding it up, for me currently, swapping in INT-heavy weapons ([Amani Divining Staff] and a [Carved Witch Doctor's Stick]) would give about 300 more Mana back from a Life Tap. While you can mitigate the switch-back GCD by placing the swap after a Shadowbolt cast in a macro, I think the single 1.5 second GCD would be a greater loss than the extra 300 or so mana.
Obviously losing a GCD isn't worth it, but it may be possible that losing 200-300 spell damage on your shadowbolt may be worth the extra 300 mana. Probably not though, but I wouldn't rule it out without doing the math (which should actually be rather easy).
#1776SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morakk
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Obviously losing a GCD isn't worth it, but it may be possible that losing 200-300 spell damage on your shadowbolt may be worth the extra 300 mana. Probably not though, but I wouldn't rule it out without doing the math (which should actually be rather easy).
Except you can swap back to your real weapons during the Shadowbolt cast and not lose the extra spell damage.
#1777SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3PSGarak
He's talking about the shadowbolt before, not the shadowbolt after:
1. Cast shadowbolt, swap weapons so the cooldown is finished before the spell goes off: lose shadowbolt damage
2. Lifetap and swap weapons back: gain extra mana
3. Cast next shadowbolt: normal
It's the only way to swap weapons and get extra mana out of lifetap without losing a GCD in there, since the weapon has to be swapped before casting lifetap (unlike Evocation).
#1778SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
You could also simply swap the weapons during the shadowbolt after the liftap instead of immidiately after the lifetap, eliminating possible "extra" GCD that could be caused by desync or whatever. Although it might not really matter (needs testing) the "safe" way would be to swap back the weapons during the shadowbolt rather than as soon as you lifetap.

Doing some very rough math it, looks like the dps gained by lifetapping for 2300 instead of 2000 will increase DPS by 0.75% but lose 1.5% dps due to 300 less spell dmg on shadowbolts before every lifetap. This of course could change in a noticeable way with different lifetap values (which seem to change every 2 days), different intelect gains from weapon swaps and different spell dmg / crit / hit losses.
#1779SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rublik
Hi everyone.
I wanted to ask for an advice concerning gear choices. To be precise i want to ask, what you EJ warlock community think about Hood of Hexing? I have hood of the corruptor with CSD. Will the hood of hexing outhweight the meta gem if i change gear/gems to be at 202 hit after i change headpeaces?
Here is my armory link:The World of Warcraft Armory
#1780SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Roywyn
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Doing some very rough math it, looks like the dps gained by lifetapping for 2300 instead of 2000 will increase DPS by 0.75% but lose 1.5% dps due to 300 less spell dmg on shadowbolts before every lifetap. This of course could change in a noticeable way with different lifetap values (which seem to change every 2 days), different intelect gains from weapon swaps and different spell dmg / crit / hit losses.
It's heavily dependant on your weapons. The poster mentioned having an [Amani Divining Staff]. If you have a [Zhar'doom, Greatstaff of the Devourer], you lose 42 (base) + 54 (enchant) damage, lose 5 (0.22%) crit rating, keep the 55 haste (since your Shadow Bolt cast already began) and gain 66 intellect (0.83% crit, ~18 crit rating).

So, you lose +96 damage on one cast, gain +13 crit rating on that cast and gain +218 mana on life tap.
Actually, the haste from Zhar'doom would be worth +70 mana from a life tap (in terms on mana/sec from lifetap). Zhar'doom also has a lot of intellect itself.

That feels like changing a lot with slight weapon changes.
#1781SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Even with that example it seems to maybe break even at best, and that example greatly favors the swap since you don't lose the haste (assuming there aren't any issues by swapping immidiately after the lifetap - which there might be depending on how it's handled by the server/client). It's close enough to warrant more accurate calculations but it just doesn't seem worth it.
#1782SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3wind
Speaking of new mechanics in 2.4, I am currently trying to figure out if the changes to incinerate warrant having all the destruction warlocks spec fire.
Quoting from the tooltip on the current ptr build, without haste gear:
Incinerate: 337 mana, 2.25 second cast, 488-566 base, + 122-142 if immo is up. That averages to 659 average damage, with immolate up. 292 DPCT, 1.95 DPM.
Shadowbolt: 399 mana, 2.5 second cast, 544-607 base damage. Averaging 575.5 average damage, 230 DPCT, 1.44 DPM.
With haste gear, the differences in favor of incinerate stack even more. As we usually try and stack haste to the point where spamming a spell with a decreased cast time would not make us go out of mana before being able to tap it back as part of our normal spell cycle, I see incinerate's lower mana cost and higher dpm as giving the potential to stack even more haste than a shadowbolt spamming warlock.

In a normally balanced raid, my guild usually has 2-3 mages, 2-3 shadow priests, and 4 warlocks, one of which is affliction.
I can perfectly see the single affliction warlock being both the maledictioned coe and the immolate "bitch", while all the destruction warlocks would be spamming incinerates.

I am, however, wondering how that will affect raid dps. Fire spells will benefit from the mages' improved scorch. The maledictioned curse will probably shift from cos to coe. The shadowpriest dps will drop (assuming an average 60% imp. sb uptime, shadowpriest dps will decrease by a maximum of 60% of 15% extra damage from imp. sb = 9%?) The lock dps and dps time will most likely increase, and the mage dps will probably increase as well, due to the maledictioned coe.

It seems to me that fire would become the superior build, and I was hoping you guys might come up with something that would debunk my assumptions.
#1783SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kobal
Assuming the individual DPS Gain of Fire Destro outweighs the loss to raid DPS contribution due to the missing ISB procs, I was wondering what the "correct" spec for Fire Destro will be. Since with Fire you have no filler the natural candidate would seem to be this spec.

However, there might be one option: To swap Cataclysm with Improved Shadow Bolt. Yes, Cataclysm is a DPS boost, albeit not a large one (my spreadsheet has it somewhere between 5 and 10 DPS). On the other hand with Improved Shadow Bolt you have basically all the talents needed for Shadow destro as well. This will largely improve your performance on mobs where fire damage is not an option, or only a subpar option, like

- Al'ar
- Phoenixes during the Kael'Thas Encounter
- Supremus due to his high fire resistance
- Mother Sharaz during the Prismatic Aura: Fire
- Illidan Phase 2

So what do you think, Cataclysm or Improved Shadow Bolt?
#1784SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3wind
The spec you linked is what I'm currently using on the ptr. As far as fire immune mobs go, I'd rather just respec if needed.

I guess it's all a matter of personal preference, in the end. If you're speccing for max dps, you'll get Cataclysm. If you just want to save respec costs, you'll get Imp. Shadowbolt.
#1785SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Emolate
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
You're probably thinking I'm crazy for considering this. You probably think our tanks should generate more threat and I agree. In the meantime, I'm not sure what other option I have other than spamming rank 1 spells trying to get crits for negative threat from my prism.
You're not crazy.

I switch between 0/40/21 and 0/21/40 quite a bit. Having a 3/3 Improved Imp is a big bonus to party members, and the threat reduction makes for zero downtime waiting for a bigger ceiling.

In my experience it is awfully situational in terms of personal DPS. On a fight like Void Reaver sometimes I'll pop a trinket and then get targeted for two orbs and have to run away. Plus, he sheds some aggro on knock-back so that makes it all very exciting.

If you have more Warlocks, CoR helps on Void Reaver for threat. I've been able to get my DPS time on Void Reaver up from 60% to 70% or so. I think our Tanks are getting better at threat generation and the CoR helps. I lead off with that curse on most bosses, even (especially?) if I'm the only Warlock in the raid.
#1786SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Suggestive
Originally Posted by wind View Post
Speaking of new mechanics in 2.4, I am currently trying to figure out if the changes to incinerate warrant having all the destruction warlocks spec fire.
Quoting from the tooltip on the current ptr build, without haste gear:
Incinerate: 337 mana, 2.25 second cast, 488-566 base, + 122-142 if immo is up. That averages to 659 average damage, with immolate up. 292 DPCT, 1.95 DPM.
Shadowbolt: 399 mana, 2.5 second cast, 544-607 base damage. Averaging 575.5 average damage, 230 DPCT, 1.44 DPM.
With haste gear, the differences in favor of incinerate stack even more. As we usually try and stack haste to the point where spamming a spell with a decreased cast time would not make us go out of mana before being able to tap it back as part of our normal spell cycle, I see incinerate's lower mana cost and higher dpm as giving the potential to stack even more haste than a shadowbolt spamming warlock.

In a normally balanced raid, my guild usually has 2-3 mages, 2-3 shadow priests, and 4 warlocks, one of which is affliction.
I can perfectly see the single affliction warlock being both the maledictioned coe and the immolate "bitch", while all the destruction warlocks would be spamming incinerates.

I am, however, wondering how that will affect raid dps. Fire spells will benefit from the mages' improved scorch. The maledictioned curse will probably shift from cos to coe. The shadowpriest dps will drop (assuming an average 60% imp. sb uptime, shadowpriest dps will decrease by a maximum of 60% of 15% extra damage from imp. sb = 9%?) The lock dps and dps time will most likely increase, and the mage dps will probably increase as well, due to the maledictioned coe.

It seems to me that fire would become the superior build, and I was hoping you guys might come up with something that would debunk my assumptions.
There is never a good reason for you NOT to cast immolate as long as you're fire specced. This goes double if you have any amount of haste at all, since you want to minimise the chance of a missing immolate on the target. As long as ISB stays the way it is, you want the number of shadow destro locks to at least be equal to the number of shadow priests in the raid. I'm not sure where you were going with the haste comments, so i can't answer that.

It's heavily dependant on your weapons. The poster mentioned having an [Amani Divining Staff]. If you have a [Zhar'doom, Greatstaff of the Devourer], you lose 42 (base) + 54 (enchant) damage, lose 5 (0.22%) crit rating, keep the 55 haste (since your Shadow Bolt cast already began) and gain 66 intellect (0.83% crit, ~18 crit rating).

So, you lose +96 damage on one cast, gain +13 crit rating on that cast and gain +218 mana on life tap.
Actually, the haste from Zhar'doom would be worth +70 mana from a life tap (in terms on mana/sec from lifetap). Zhar'doom also has a lot of intellect itself.
That feels like changing a lot with slight weapon changes.
You lose 55 haste if you swap during the shadowbolt after the lifetap, it might be worth it but the gains will be very marginal... You could also add another 42 damage from a weapon oil to the damage lost, but i guess you could oil both weapons. This would really only apply on a very static encounter, which is pretty much...teron or brutallus. If i have to move at all, or there is any downtime i can squeeze lifetaps into then it frankly won't make a hell of a lot of difference.

Last edited by Suggestive : 03/03/08 at 1:09 PM.
#1787SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Seems that even on some of the movement fights you still have long enough "nuke periods" where you can go from full to empty and need to tap, as well as sometimes the movement is time when you're actually taking damage as well and don't want to tap and die (like al'ar phase 2 for both patches and meteors possibly even after the meteor landed).

There are many situations where you could take advantage of no-dps times to tap, but there are also about as many situations where you can't.
#1788SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Suggestive
Yeah, something like council comes to mind as well. I'm not dismissing it out of hand, just sort of mulling over it. Its not really something you can put a number on since it will change by encounter, and possibly week to week on the same encounter based on RNG. At the very least its worth a little testing to see how it works out.
#1789SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Suggestive View Post
Yeah, something like council comes to mind as well. I'm not dismissing it out of hand, just sort of mulling over it. Its not really something you can put a number on since it will change by encounter, and possibly week to week on the same encounter based on RNG. At the very least its worth a little testing to see how it works out.
Yeah I think it's worth testing, but weapon-swapping always seems to have a mini-lag associated to it outside of any cooldown issue. Any DPS gains from more efficient life taps might go out the window if you lose even tenths/hundredths of seconds. I'll be interested to see what people report.
#1790SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Redelm
I just had a quick thought at work and its a bit out there, but I am wondering if anyone has looked into the numbers. With the introduction of the 3 extra pieces of T6, and those pieces obviously allowing you to get the 4/5 (or 4/8) bonus. Is Demo spec, using 2/5 T5 and 4/8 T6 with the Solarian trinket, a viable option in SW raiding. I understand you are not using the best gear available for your 2 T5 slots and Trinket slot. Again this was just a quick thought and was wondering if anyone had looked into the numbers or am I crazy? The latter of the two is probably true
#1791SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Cohren
Originally Posted by Redelm View Post
I just had a quick thought at work and its a bit out there, but I am wondering if anyone has looked into the numbers. With the introduction of the 3 extra pieces of T6, and those pieces obviously allowing you to get the 4/5 (or 4/8) bonus. Is Demo spec, using 2/5 T5 and 4/8 T6 with the Solarian trinket, a viable option in SW raiding. I understand you are not using the best gear available for your 2 T5 slots and Trinket slot. Again this was just a quick thought and was wondering if anyone had looked into the numbers or am I crazy? The latter of the two is probably true
Even with using those pieces I'm not sure that Demo is viable in Sunwell at least with the first 2 bosses. My experience with the fights was BM hunters were having trouble keeping their pets alive due to the massive amounts of AE dmg the fights entail which would mean it would be near impossible for us even with those items.
#1792SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Evilwilly
Does the change to haste rating make affliction spec viable again? It will scale much better with gear now...

Now that the global cooldown is being reduced in patch 2.4, has anyone given any thought behind the value of haste rating in affliciton spec?

I did some quick calcs on a modified spreadsheet, and it looks like 1 haste rating will go from being worth 0.2 spell dmg to 1.1 spell dmg for UA affliction spec.

Considering that Affliction spec gets outpaced hardcore by destruction mostly because of the itemization, now that haste rating is worth 1.1 spell dmg (if that's true), then perhaps affliction spec will scale well again, and maybe can out-dps destruction again? After all, we're talking about 3-5k DPCT dots!! Lowering the cast time, we could see 5-8k DPCT dots.

I looked back as far in this post as I could to see if this has been discussed, but couldn't find anything.
#1793SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Evilwilly
I have another quick question for you guys...

Is there a dot timer where I can click on the dot timer and it will target the mob that the dot is on?

If not, what is the best way to ensure that in 3+ pulls that all your dots are being refreshed as fast as possible. What do you guys do?
#1794SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Evilwilly View Post
Does the change to haste rating make affliction spec viable again? It will scale much better with gear now...

Now that the global cooldown is being reduced in patch 2.4, has anyone given any thought behind the value of haste rating in affliciton spec?

I did some quick calcs on a modified spreadsheet, and it looks like 1 haste rating will go from being worth 0.2 spell dmg to 1.1 spell dmg for UA affliction spec.

Considering that Affliction spec gets outpaced hardcore by destruction mostly because of the itemization, now that haste rating is worth 1.1 spell dmg (if that's true), then perhaps affliction spec will scale well again, and maybe can out-dps destruction again? After all, we're talking about 3-5k DPCT dots!! Lowering the cast time, we could see 5-8k DPCT dots.

I looked back as far in this post as I could to see if this has been discussed, but couldn't find anything.
Getting a 5k DPCT DoT to 8k DPCT would require 60% haste? This change simply means Affliction will scale better than 2.3 affliction. Destro still scales better on all the stats in the gear ranges I have seen on the sheet.

Originally Posted by Evilwilly View Post
I have another quick question for you guys...

Is there a dot timer where I can click on the dot timer and it will target the mob that the dot is on?

If not, what is the best way to ensure that in 3+ pulls that all your dots are being refreshed as fast as possible. What do you guys do?
Tab target? You get 1.5 seconds every cast to target something else, it's not too hard to tab or even click the next target.
#1795SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morwen
Originally Posted by Evilwilly View Post
I have another quick question for you guys...

Is there a dot timer where I can click on the dot timer and it will target the mob that the dot is on?

If not, what is the best way to ensure that in 3+ pulls that all your dots are being refreshed as fast as possible. What do you guys do?
As far as I know it is not possible to have a frame that dynamically updates while in combat such that you can click on it to acquire arbitrary enemy targets (being in combat locks certain functions). You can do it visually with the raid target symbols though.
#1796SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Evilwilly
When you have 3 targets that will be tanked for longer than 30 seconds (or so), then dots will run off different mobs at different times.

For example, you can CoA/corr/UA each 3 mobs to start, then siphon them all, then immolate 1, by then Corr will run out on mob 2, so you can Corr/UA it, then Corr/UA the 2nd, then you have weird things like CoA going on mob 1, Corr/UA going on mob 3, followed by CoA on mob 2, etc...

It's 100% impossible to maintain less than 1 second dot gap on 3 mobs when you have to refresh the dots on all 3. I tab target, but what would really be cool would be if a dot timer could target the mob when you click on it.... or if you could set up 3 focus frames and the dot timers would appear under each one.

I guess that was more of my question... does anything like that exist? Right now i'm just tab/click switching targets and it works okay, but can be greatly approved upon. I was just wondering if any of the T6 guild locks have anything such as that to help maintain dot gap time low on multi pull long lasting fights.
#1797SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyth
Originally Posted by Evilwilly View Post
I have another quick question for you guys...

Is there a dot timer where I can click on the dot timer and it will target the mob that the dot is on?

If not, what is the best way to ensure that in 3+ pulls that all your dots are being refreshed as fast as possible. What do you guys do?
Main tank targets. If your guild doesn't use them (e.g. Fusion doesn't) use oRA to set personal targets of all the possible tanks in your guild. Make sure you configure it to display raid symbols.
#1798SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lymphatik
You could use macro with mouseover. So you will gain the wasted time to clik but you would have to be carefull about those lovely turtle or sheep
#1799SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Evilwilly View Post
Does the change to haste rating make affliction spec viable again? It will scale much better with gear now...

Now that the global cooldown is being reduced in patch 2.4, has anyone given any thought behind the value of haste rating in affliciton spec?

I did some quick calcs on a modified spreadsheet, and it looks like 1 haste rating will go from being worth 0.2 spell dmg to 1.1 spell dmg for UA affliction spec.

Considering that Affliction spec gets outpaced hardcore by destruction mostly because of the itemization, now that haste rating is worth 1.1 spell dmg (if that's true), then perhaps affliction spec will scale well again, and maybe can out-dps destruction again? After all, we're talking about 3-5k DPCT dots!! Lowering the cast time, we could see 5-8k DPCT dots.

I looked back as far in this post as I could to see if this has been discussed, but couldn't find anything.
Affliction is viable, and it always has been. Shadow Embrace is still pretty much worth it. Malediction softens the blow. Blood pact is less important than it used to be, with tanks running around in 20k hit points.

But affliction outdps destruction? I though it obvious that now better gear becomes available, Affliction will fall even further behind.

Affliction just doesn't scale well. It never has, and it probably never will. They'd need to change a lot of core mechanics for it to be even remotely competitive at end gear level. You say it's because itemization, but it really doesn't matter how you place attributes on gear. 0/21/40 simply gains more point for point from hit, crit, spelldamage and haste.
#1800SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Evilwilly View Post
When you have 3 targets that will be tanked for longer than 30 seconds (or so), then dots will run off different mobs at different times.

For example, you can CoA/corr/UA each 3 mobs to start, then siphon them all, then immolate 1, by then Corr will run out on mob 2, so you can Corr/UA it, then Corr/UA the 2nd, then you have weird things like CoA going on mob 1, Corr/UA going on mob 3, followed by CoA on mob 2, etc...

It's 100% impossible to maintain less than 1 second dot gap on 3 mobs when you have to refresh the dots on all 3. I tab target, but what would really be cool would be if a dot timer could target the mob when you click on it.... or if you could set up 3 focus frames and the dot timers would appear under each one.

I guess that was more of my question... does anything like that exist? Right now i'm just tab/click switching targets and it works okay, but can be greatly approved upon. I was just wondering if any of the T6 guild locks have anything such as that to help maintain dot gap time low on multi pull long lasting fights.
The fact that your uptime slips a little on multiple mobs is okay as long as you spend your cast time casting the highest DPCT spell available at all times. A mod to target isn't going to change that since you still have to deal with GCDs and cast-times. DoTimers aren't that hard to watch and see what you'll need to do in the next 5 seconds, if it involves switching targets be ready to switch. You get 1.5 seconds to switch, it's not that hard if you know what you're expected to do.
#1801SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Evilwilly View Post
I have another quick question for you guys...

Is there a dot timer where I can click on the dot timer and it will target the mob that the dot is on?

If not, what is the best way to ensure that in 3+ pulls that all your dots are being refreshed as fast as possible. What do you guys do?
This is currently not possible. Maybe in 2.4.

I'm destro, so I just spam CoA on pulls (using tab target, or MT list, as has been suggested) and throw SBs after. During the 1.5 seconds of GCD you should be able to pick up a new good target.
#1802SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Even with 20k HP on the tanks blood pact simply helps *that* much. Maybe not enough for a T6 warlock to switch to affliction, but when combined with the incredible shadow embrace and the fact some of the DPS loss is made up for with malediction makes affliction more than worth it at any gear level when you want to maximize your chance to down the boss. When you already have absolutely no chance to wipe to tank death, though (which means you have everything in the game on farm for quite a while now so it doesn't really matter), you could just go for max dps to farm content in speed records... For anything else - 1 affliction warlock in the raid is pretty much a requirement if you care at all about optimizing for easiest boss kills.
#1803SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Beardyhead
Originally Posted by Evilwilly View Post
I have another quick question for you guys...

Is there a dot timer where I can click on the dot timer and it will target the mob that the dot is on?

If not, what is the best way to ensure that in 3+ pulls that all your dots are being refreshed as fast as possible. What do you guys do?
DoTimer and some sort of MT Assist mod (I, sadly, still just pull out tank frames and assist them during GCDs) simplifies the ability to keep dots up on all tanked mobs. I usually UA/Corr/CoS the raid focused target and immediately switch to other targets to get 10 stacks of Crusade as quick as possible. I tend to just DPS independently of everyone else as long as dots are ticking and the shadowlovers get their maledicted CoS.

Phase 2 on Illidan, I keep the secondary infernal focused, with the primary infernal targeted and both fully dotted. Considering our FR tanks rely a lot on MD's to get early threat to hold down the nukers, I enjoy being able to maintain relatively high DPS, self preservation (siphon life x 2, t6 2pc bonus x2 = lots of healing coming in). It's easy to tab target during GCD so that you never lose DPS time fidgeting targets.

ImprovedCamera2 and zooming out til you're a dot on the screen also trivializes the ability to target things.
#1804SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vand1
From the latest PTR build:

Lifetap changes have been reverted back to 2.3 original values.
Rank 1 to 7 - Converts 20/65/130/210/300/420/580 health into 20/65/130/210/300/420/580 mana
#1805SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lord Pendragon
Question for the experts:

Currently my (affliction) warlock is using Quagmirran's Eye. The spell damage is very good for me, while the haste has always seemed fairly worthless. Of course this changes with 2.4, where haste now has the effect of acting on the global cooldown. This means that the Eye's haste proc can still be useful to me, even if I'm in the midst of re-applying DoTs.

But where my confusion comes in is judging just HOW useful this effect is. 2.4's latest changes include an improved Alchemist's stone which provides +63 spell damage.

So, to sum it up, is a +360 haste for 6 sec proc worth more or less than a static +26 spell damage?

Thanks for any help.
#1806SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 frmorrison
26 spell damage is better, since haste even buffed in 2.4 is not the that great of a stat for Affliction. I think 0.6 for haste with spell damage 1 is about right at Tier 4-5 level.
#1807SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3SRneo
Hey guys,

I just have a quick question concerning UA and Ruin. I know at early levels UA outperforms and Ruin wins later on...But I was just wondering when? What spell damage and crit% must you have to make Ruin > UA? Of course you must be hit capped lol...I'm not THAT dumb.

Thanks for the answers.
#1808SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nas
Originally Posted by SRneo View Post
Hey guys,

I just have a quick question concerning UA and Ruin. I know at early levels UA outperforms and Ruin wins later on...But I was just wondering when? What spell damage and crit% must you have to make Ruin > UA? Of course you must be hit capped lol...I'm not THAT dumb.

Thanks for the answers.

Try playing around with the Warlock DPS Spreadsheet, should be easy enough to find the threshold there.
#1809SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Presarc
Originally Posted by SRneo View Post
Hey guys,

I just have a quick question concerning UA and Ruin. I know at early levels UA outperforms and Ruin wins later on...But I was just wondering when? What spell damage and crit% must you have to make Ruin > UA? Of course you must be hit capped lol...I'm not THAT dumb.

Thanks for the answers.
As far as theorycrafting goes, you have to be extremely well-geared for Ruin to truly out-dps UA. But the in-practice extra damage from ruin vs an extra 18 second castable dot is simply that much more. You're doing more damage at the end of the fight and all throughout unless it's a highly mobile fight. The actual numbers are something like 1500 shadow damage/30ish crit.
#1810SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shabaz
I'd love some assistance from you all on where to focus. My armory currently has me in PVP gear, so Ill just run down where I'm at. I'm a 0/21/40 build. My guild is clearing Leo, Lurker, and Hydross in SSC. We are currently working on Fathomlord and Tidewalker. I've been gearing for balance, trying to find items that had solid damage, crit, and hit. I currently gear for boss fights and end up (raid buffed) at:

203 Hit (gonna regem at some point to get that 1 point back)
31% Crit (actually 26% pure crit, but +5% from Devestation for Destruction) (I also raid with a Moonie making it effectively 36% assuming I'm not running out of aura range
1400 Shadow damage (that or thereabouts)

I tend to hit 900 to 1100 DPS (according to WOW Web Info) depending on the fights (*thats including trash...I keep meaning to run it only on bosses but havent)

So, I feel kinda stuck. I have the spreadsheets and its starting to look like crit is worth more then damage, but I'm not sure how much stock to put into that, and how high I should be trying to get my crit. Are my numbers what I should expect for my point in progression?
#1811SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Krazen
Originally Posted by Vand1 View Post
From the latest PTR build:

Lifetap changes have been reverted back to 2.3 original values.
Rank 1 to 7 - Converts 20/65/130/210/300/420/580 health into 20/65/130/210/300/420/580 mana
And it still (sadly) scales with +shadow damage. My PTR Fire build has about 100 (180 with flamecap) extra fire damage.

Last edited by Krazen : 03/07/08 at 11:48 AM.
#1812SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Emolate
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
And it still (sadly) scales with +shadow damage. My PTR Fire build has about 100 (180 with flamecap) extra fire damage, so if they want fire to be competitive, I hope they switch this.
Even with Incinerate using less mana than Shadow Bolt?
#1813SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Emolate View Post
Even with Incinerate using less mana than Shadow Bolt?
Well, that was probably irresponsible of me to say. I was pretty convinced personally that fire was better than shadow with the 20% mana based lifetap, and I haven't done the math to see how losing 100ish mana on lifetaps affects this.

Consider it to be more of an idealistic statement (I'd prefer to scale with just 1 type of damage rather than 2) rather than anything on the merits of either build.

But it would be nice if LT scaled with your highest school of magic.
#1814SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Depressio
About Fire vs. Shadow in 2.4...

The new 0/21/40: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Watch out!

That being said, the differences between Fire/Shadow in 2.4 are these:

Shadow Bolt:
+10% from Shadow Weaving
+20% from ISB (depends on how often it's up)
85.7% of +damage Coefficient before Shadow & Flame.
572 average damage base

Incinerate:
+15% from Scorch
+10% damage from Emberstorm
+10% haste from Emberstorm
71.4% of +damage Coefficient before Shadow & Flame.
598.5 average damage base (with Immolate)

Overall, they're strikingly similar. Shadow Bolt gets 5% less via SW than Incinerate gets from Scorch, but makes up for it with the higher +damage coefficient. Incinerate gets a flat 20% DPS increase via Emberstorm, but Shadow Bolt gets almost 20% from ISB (since it's not always up), but helps the raid too and does not require Immolate (which with all the fire talents, might actually be higher DPCT anyway for an Incinerate build).

As far as personal DPS, they will compete. As far as raid DPS, 1 or 2 Shadow Destruction Warlocks are necessary to keep ISB up 50-60% of the time. Additional Warlocks doing that won't really help that much since more often than not, they will be replacing each other's charges and adding minimal uptime (observe this effect via WOW ISB Uptime Simulator).

Imagine you have infinite Destruction Warlocks with 30% crit and 10% haste (about right for BT/Hyjal). Imagine you have two fixed Shadow Priests (again, about right for BT/Hyjal).

1 Warlock: 50.6% ISB uptime (50.6% increase over 0, 10.12% shadow DPS increase)
2 Warlocks: 59.07% ISB uptime (8.47% increase, 1.69% shadow DPS increase over 1 Warlock)
3 Warlocks: 64.1% ISB uptime (5.03% increase, 1.01% shadow DPS increase over 2 Warlocks)

Notice that with each Warlock you add, the ISB uptime increase is smaller. 1 Warlock responsible for ISB is the largest effect. Each additional Warlock past 1 Shadow adds a minute amount of ISB uptime and % increase to Shadow DPS. This effect is caused by overwriting ISB's; the more Warlocks you have doing it, the more ISB charges you will be overwriting. A single Warlock maximizes ISB usage and efficiency.

Bottom line: The ideal is likely going to be 1 or 2 Shadow Destruction, the rest Fire.
#1815SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Plasty
Feedback burn ect..

The World of Warcraft Armory

Hello everyone, I am looking for feedback on how to improve my guy for overall performance. I have been looking for the dr on crit and when to switch to spell dam ect.. If you have any tips at all for gear or whatever please reply below!!

I do run with 201 spell hit just for some reason wowamory is not updating
#1816SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Plasty View Post
The World of Warcraft Armory

Hello everyone, I am looking for feedback on how to improve my guy for overall performance. I have been looking for the dr on crit and when to switch to spell dam ect.. If you have any tips at all for gear or whatever please reply below!!

I do run with 201 spell hit just for some reason wowamory is not updating
The original post on this thread has some really great info, I suggest reading it from top to bottom. You may find you learn so much you could provide your own feedback! Scanning through some of the pages on this thread would also let you know that the spreadsheet has the most accurate gear-related answers to your inquiries.
#1817SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Cronjob
Originally Posted by Presarc View Post
As far as theorycrafting goes, you have to be extremely well-geared for Ruin to truly out-dps UA. But the in-practice extra damage from ruin vs an extra 18 second castable dot is simply that much more. You're doing more damage at the end of the fight and all throughout unless it's a highly mobile fight. The actual numbers are something like 1500 shadow damage/30ish crit.
Depends what you consider extremely well-geared. Up to T4 Affliction wins due to hit not being so easy to get if you run destro. T5 and certainly T6+ Destro wins and with haste the gap will be even further come 2.4.
#1818SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
Depends what you consider extremely well-geared. Up to T4 Affliction wins due to hit not being so easy to get if you run destro. T5 and certainly T6+ Destro wins and with haste the gap will be even further come 2.4.
I don't think he's comparing affliction to destro as much as UA toRuin for a malediction/SE build.
#1819SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Just the fact the 3rd warlock won't add as much ISB as the 2nd doesn't immidiately mean that it's neglicible. I suggest looking at the spreadsheet using your own raid as a baseline to get useful results rather than do guestimations.
#1820SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Depressio
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Just the fact the 3rd warlock won't add as much ISB as the 2nd doesn't immidiately mean that it's neglicible. I suggest looking at the spreadsheet using your own raid as a baseline to get useful results rather than do guestimations.
The effect is undeniable, however. The more Warlocks you add, the less each additional Warlock contributes to the overall uptime of ISB. Whether my hypothetical scenario fits yours or not is irrelevant; the effect exists.

The real question is whether Fire is higher personal DPS in 2.4 than Shadow. I feel that it will be, and in that case, the DPS difference will eclipse the added DPS from 1% increased Shadow DPS via another Shadow Warlock.
#1821SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pyralissa
How big a difference is a "fire" lock using Cataclysm versus not having Cataclysm? If a "fire" warlock picks up ISB along with the other supporting fire talents (Emberstorm, Imp. Incinerate) they could conceivably switch between shadow and fire depending on what's available for the raid (or even the encounter, although I don't know of any encounter that would force you to make such a switch based strictly off elemental damage type). If one of the shadow destruction warlocks doesn't show up, it's just a simple as a matter as switching to shadow bolt over incinerate. I don't really see a big difference in specs (except supporting talents) to force you to really block yourself into one of the specific paths.
#1822SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Cataclysm, by "talent standards", is a very weak talent. It is, however, an undeniable DPS increase. Look at the spreadsheet for exact values.
#1823SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Depressio
Originally Posted by Pyralissa View Post
How big a difference is a "fire" lock using Cataclysm versus not having Cataclysm? If a "fire" warlock picks up ISB along with the other supporting fire talents (Emberstorm, Imp. Incinerate) they could conceivably switch between shadow and fire depending on what's available for the raid (or even the encounter, although I don't know of any encounter that would force you to make such a switch based strictly off elemental damage type). If one of the shadow destruction warlocks doesn't show up, it's just a simple as a matter as switching to shadow bolt over incinerate. I don't really see a big difference in specs (except supporting talents) to force you to really block yourself into one of the specific paths.
Cataclysm is really for min/maxing as Fire. If you want to remain flexible and free of respec costs, then yes, you could swap Cataclysm and ISB.
#1824SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wingalock
I am also as eager as Pyralissa to see how much of a difference it would make for a warlock to pick up Catalysm but not Improved Immolate: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft, as opposed to pick up Improved Immolate but not Catalysm: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.
#1825SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
If you're already casting immolate, improving it seems to be significantly more dps than cataclysm. Granted I only looked at one spec and gear setup but the dps difference was quite big to make it require you to take it to some extreme for cataclysm to be better than improved immolate if you're casting immolate. If you're not casting immolate obviously imroving immolate gives 0 dps (although if it turns it into worth casting it could be somewhere in between).
#1826SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Wingalock View Post
I am also as eager as Pyralissa to see how much of a difference it would make for a warlock to pick up Catalysm but not Improved Immolate: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft, as opposed to pick up Improved Immolate but not Catalysm: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.
Improved immolate is almost twice as much DPS increase per talent point as Cataclysm for fire destro. You needn't be eager to see, you can simply test it out on the spreadsheet (as noted by a poster above).
#1827SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wingalock
Thanks, silly me, I have run the spreedsheet, and it works out that even with purely spamming Incinerate (without Immolate), the DPS will be higher than spamming SB (considering a raid setup consists of 3 Shadow Destruction Warlocks + 2 Shadow Priests), however it only increases by a small margin.
#1828SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
Depends what you consider extremely well-geared. Up to T4 Affliction wins due to hit not being so easy to get if you run destro. T5 and certainly T6+ Destro wins and with haste the gap will be even further come 2.4.
We're talking about 40/0/21 vs 41/0/20, right?

Because if you're not: you're horribly wrong.

These days, even at Karazhan levels, regular 0/21/40 seems to win by a landslide. Epic badge loot raised the bar a lot.
#1829SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Astrylian
Rawr Beta 12.1 posted!

DOWNLOAD: https://www.codeplex.com/Release/Pro...eleaseId=11483


Beta 12.1:
- Fixed a bug that would cause "Input string not in correct format" errors when Rawr was run on copies of Windows for a region where a period is not the decimal separator (ie european countries where it would be "1,23" instead of "1.23").
- For proxies that filter by user-agent, the user-agent used by Rawr is now customizable in the proxy options.
- Config settings (like recent files) are now user specific.
- Fix for occasionally not loading icons immediately even though a network connection is available. Also fixed an error when there was no network connection.
- Rawr.Mage: Added new AB-AM cycle and new AB cycles with Frostbolt/Scorch filler, added a fix for the item budget comparison, added scrolling on the options screen, added Drums of Battle stacking,
- Rawr.Warlock: Fixed issue when altering spell cycle
#1830SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Remember that the spreadsheet doesn't take into account the DPS the raid gains from your improved shadowbolt into your own DPS. It only adds raid DPS increases from ISB in the "next stat" section. If you chance your talents/spells/gear and look at your DPS difference you also have to go to the raid ISB tab and see how much ISB uptime changed and calculate [(the difference )* 0.2 * (shadow dps of the rest of your raid)] and add/substract that to/from your DPS. Then consider what happens if you raid with 3 shadow priests, or only 2 warlocks. And make one of the warlocks affliction if you really want a realistic progressing raid.
#1831SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Madlax
Throwing another topic in here: Has anyone done theorycrafts on SW gear and what to grab yet?
I came up with chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta before RAWR, and rawr also says me that these items are quite on spot in overall max dps.
Only thing I'm really not happy about is the awful lack of +hit on all that gear, even had to socket 2 items with hit/dam gems to get 200.
(Also includes being JC/Enchanter - for the neck)

As for the when-to-pick-what:
shadowpriest.com :: View topic - TEMP 2.4 Best Raiding Gear Available
Shoulders, Gloves, Wand are best on slot for Spriest as of current.
Chest - if you´re tailor pick Sunfire, else it´s a cat fight against spriest there as well.
Pros:
Leggings of Calamity we´d only have to fight mages for.

Anyone with good thoughts on this?
#1832SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Madlax View Post
Throwing another topic in here: Has anyone done theorycrafts on SW gear and what to grab yet?
I came up with chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta before RAWR, and rawr also says me that these items are quite on spot in overall max dps.
Only thing I'm really not happy about is the awful lack of +hit on all that gear, even had to socket 2 items with hit/dam gems to get 200.
(Also includes being JC/Enchanter - for the neck)

As for the when-to-pick-what:
shadowpriest.com :: View topic - TEMP 2.4 Best Raiding Gear Available
Shoulders, Gloves, Wand are best on slot for Spriest as of current.
Chest - if you´re tailor pick Sunfire, else it´s a cat fight against spriest there as well.
Pros:
Leggings of Calamity we´d only have to fight mages for.

Anyone with good thoughts on this?

New Twin Eredars neck has 15 hit. Switch to Sunfire Robe and use this neckpiece, then ungem hit.
#1833SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Madlax
That would mean 200hit, 25haste, 25crit, 36dam vs 205 hit, 32haste, 39dam
25 crit vs 2hit, 7haste and 3dam
That's a pretty fair trade with Sunfire still.
#1834SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3atvrider450r
Anyone use maxdps.com? And the ss from this post? Can i get some opinions on them on which is more preferred?
#1835SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ammanas
Originally Posted by atvrider450r View Post
Anyone use maxdps.com? And the ss from this post? Can i get some opinions on them on which is more preferred?
I messed around with it some, its pretty nice for a quick item comparison but the spreadsheet is certainly still the best option. Theres no place to imput haste rating or screw around with other options (raid debuffs, ISB uptime, set bonuses, trinket procs) .. it tells me the Illidan healing cloak is best in slot if I'm hit capped so I'd say it values haste a little too highly. Warcrafter is a similar site that does a lot of the same things and is a little more fleshed out.
#1836SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pidge
I might be wrong, but isn't 1 hit rating worth a lot more than 1 +spell damage? As such, wouldn't Great Lionseyes and Veiled Pyrestones be the highest DPS value items in a gem slot? Personally, I think the amount of hit on the Sunwell gear is fantastic because of this. It allows you to tailor your Hit requirements a lot more easily and spend your "gem budget" more efficiently.
#1837SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
I might be wrong, but isn't 1 hit rating worth a lot more than 1 +spell damage? As such, wouldn't Great Lionseyes and Veiled Pyrestones be the highest DPS value items in a gem slot? Personally, I think the amount of hit on the Sunwell gear is fantastic because of this. It allows you to tailor your Hit requirements a lot more easily and spend your "gem budget" more efficiently.
Well whats better, using hit gems and having haste/dmg gear.. or using haste gems and having hit/dmg gear? It doesn't really matter where you get the hit from, but you must get it from somewhere.

It is clearly better to get your hit from mana attuned band, translucent spellthread(or twins neck), skull of guldan, and loop of forged power than it is to use hit gems. Using these 4 items as well as best in slot in every slot (sunflare/chronicle for wep) and inspiring presence from draenei you get 208hit.

Granted if you can't get guldan(the rest shouldn't be a problem), and you are horde and don't get a free 1%(also assuming no ele shaman).. You will need to socket a great deal of hit gems. as you will be around 33 hit below the cap in ideal gear set. Which might be the best time to get the +50hit staff instead of going the 1h route, as you would lose another 17 from not having chronicle meaning you would be exactly 50hit short.. So basically horde warlocks without guldan or elemental shamans should get the staff =P


When gemming your first priority will be to make it the rest of the way to the hit cap, using the gem that matches the socket color, because socket bonus will always makeup the tiny difference between using veiled pyrestone or great lionseye, or using reckless pyrestone and quick lionseye. Blue sockets are never worth matching unless you are trying to meet a meta requirement, and even then none of the new gear has a blue socket so ideally you will socket one item that has two sockets with two blue, or 2 items that have 1 socket with a blue each, costing you a grand total of +4dmg in socket bonuses.

Last edited by Flamingcloud : 03/08/08 at 11:21 PM.
#1838SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Cronjob
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
We're talking about 40/0/21 vs 41/0/20, right?

Because if you're not: you're horribly wrong.

These days, even at Karazhan levels, regular 0/21/40 seems to win by a landslide. Epic badge loot raised the bar a lot.

I was talking about pure affliction vs Destro aka 0/21/40... The OP was asking a different question.
#1839SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
I might be wrong, but isn't 1 hit rating worth a lot more than 1 +spell damage? As such, wouldn't Great Lionseyes and Veiled Pyrestones be the highest DPS value items in a gem slot? Personally, I think the amount of hit on the Sunwell gear is fantastic because of this. It allows you to tailor your Hit requirements a lot more easily and spend your "gem budget" more efficiently.
High level items often have a lot of hit on top of a lot of other stats, to the point where in many slots you will be able to gain very little damage by swapping items (examples: belt of blasting, hyjal trash cloak), and in some slots not be able to gain anything at all (examples: T6, skull of gul'dan). Since gemming for hit with those kind of items would cause a very small damage gain, it's not worth the big damage loss of 6 dmg lost per 5 hit gained, as you'll only gain very few damage for large amounts of hit lost. If you're under the cap somehow (generally at low gear levels) then gemming for hit becomes very worthwhile, as being under the cap makes 5 hit > 6 damage. However if you have access to epic gems you usually have high enough gear level to not be able to benefit from so much hit rating, hence spell damage socketing.
#1840SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Fireye
*** moved to rawr thread ***

Last edited by Fireye : 03/10/08 at 2:37 PM. Reason: Moving to appropriate thread.
#1841SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Fireye View Post
Do you want feedback of Rawr's Warlock model here, or in another thread?
There's a thread just for that program. I imagine it's best placed there.
#1842SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Cronjob
Originally Posted by Ammanas View Post
I messed around with it some, its pretty nice for a quick item comparison but the spreadsheet is certainly still the best option. Theres no place to imput haste rating or screw around with other options (raid debuffs, ISB uptime, set bonuses, trinket procs) .. it tells me the Illidan healing cloak is best in slot if I'm hit capped so I'd say it values haste a little too highly. Warcrafter is a similar site that does a lot of the same things and is a little more fleshed out.

Wait isnt the Illidian healing cloak the best in slot assuming hit cap which if you are at at the point where you can get it you should be.

Being hit cap haste > dam > crit
#1843SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Flamingcloud
According to the spreadsheet both at my gear level, and at end of sunwell gear level, 12dmg > 6dmg 5haste > 10haste.. Of course the difference is low enough that socketing bonuses are worth seeking out.

As far as best hit-capped cloak.. I really doubt 32 haste > 19dmg 25crit. All the spreadsheets/programs I have seen have council cloak way ahead of the haste cloak.. and that healing cloak isn't that much better than the haste cloak.
#1844SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Cronjob
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
According to the spreadsheet both at my gear level, and at end of sunwell gear level, 12dmg > 6dmg 5haste > 10haste.. Of course the difference is low enough that socketing bonuses are worth seeking out.

As far as best hit-capped cloak.. I really doubt 32 haste > 19dmg 25crit. All the spreadsheets/programs I have seen have council cloak way ahead of the haste cloak.. and that healing cloak isn't that much better than the haste cloak.

Maybe I'm reading the spreadsheet incorrectly but I dont see the Shroud of he Highborne as being terribly lower if at all. I see a value of 56.69 vs 58.33. Point for point (from a destro POV) haste returns more DPM than spell damage. Currently I'm at 5% haste, 22.37 Crit and 17.64% hit. For me haste added the biggest boost.
#1845SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Sataniss
In 2.4 I'm probably going to be atleast trying out fire in raids. My main question is how should/does gemming change in 2.4? I've messed with the spreadsheet a bit but I'm still just getting used to it. Most have said that in 2.4 you should start going for the socket bonus's on your gear.

Obviously for reds I'm going to stick with the +12 dmg gem but what (in your opinion/testing) is the best yellow gem? The pure haste gem or dmg/haste? Also, would you bother putting in blue gems to obtain the socket bonus or just skip it all together?

Lastly, since we're adding in more yellow gems it's going to make using the 1/2 cast meta requirements hard to meet. What other PvE meta's would people suggest?
#1846SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
Maybe I'm reading the spreadsheet incorrectly but I dont see the Shroud of he Highborne as being terribly lower if at all. I see a value of 56.69 vs 58.33. Point for point (from a destro POV) haste returns more DPM than spell damage. Currently I'm at 5% haste, 22.37 Crit and 17.64% hit. For me haste added the biggest boost.
I said the haste cloak was alot lower, I don't even see the healing cloak on any of the spreadsheets/programs, but I would imagine it falls in the middle of council, and shadowcaster's drape. For haste to be better than +dmg, haste basically needs to be > +1.20dmg(you can look at this at the bottom of the dps tab), this will only happen at low levels of haste since haste slowly has diminshing returns. With sunwell everyone is going to get enough haste that they will see the same gem patterns.

Originally Posted by Sataniss View Post
Obviously for reds I'm going to stick with the +12 dmg gem but what (in your opinion/testing) is the best yellow gem? The pure haste gem or dmg/haste? Also, would you bother putting in blue gems to obtain the socket bonus or just skip it all together?

Lastly, since we're adding in more yellow gems it's going to make using the 1/2 cast meta requirements hard to meet. What other PvE meta's would people suggest?
Best yellow is of course the two +hit gems, assuming you are already hit capped, you should go for reckless pyrestone(6dmg 5haste). The 1/2 cast meta is bad, get chaotic skyfire diamond... destro is the only way to go... And you could put reckless pyrestone in every slot instead of any crimson spinel, if you are having a hard time getting reds.

Last edited by Flamingcloud : 03/11/08 at 11:53 AM.
#1847SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Sataniss
I have the +hit covered from gear so I don't have to gem for it luckily. Thanks for the advice on the meta choice which also opens up my gem choices further. Lastly, assuming you have equal opportunity to both red/orange gems, would you fully outfit yourself in red gems (ignoring socket bonus's) or red/orange gems to obtain the socket bonus's? I guess it may fall into some level of gear dependancy so I'm sitting in half SSC/TK, half MH/BT gear
#1848SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Cronjob
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
I said the haste cloak was alot lower, I don't even see the healing cloak on any of the spreadsheets/programs, but I would imagine it falls in the middle of council, and shadowcaster's drape. For haste to be better than +dmg, haste basically needs to be > +1.20dmg(you can look at this at the bottom of the dps tab),
I just want to make sure we are talking about the same items

[Shroud of the Highborne] item value 56.69

vs

[Cloak of the Illidari Council] item value 58.33

Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
As far as best hit-capped cloak.. I really doubt 32 haste > 19dmg 25crit. All the spreadsheets/programs I have seen have council cloak way ahead of the haste cloak.. and that healing cloak isn't that much better than the haste cloak.

Maxdps.com shows the Shroud of the highborne slightly higher(reverse of spreadsheet) than Cloak of the illidari Council. You can punch in the stats into the spreadsheet v2.2 and you'll see the Council cloak is not far ahead of the healing cloak.

I guess it depends on what spreadsheet or website you want to go by but I havent seen any that has the healing cloak significantly lower than anything else and in fact is best in slot on some...

BTW [Shadowcaster's Drape] shows an item value of 51.73 #3 best cloak atm (which Maxdps.com also shows)


EDIT: Btw Flamingcloud whats the cast time of your bolts? Looks like you have about 9% haste rating which is hot!!
#1849SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lerker
Quick question in weapon choice for 0/21/40 lock(shadow) -

I'm currently using Wub's from dragonhawk in ZA. I recently picked up the Blade of Twisted Visions from zul'jin, and have it banked for 2.4

According to leulier's spreadsheet even with the 2.4 haste changes, the DPS increase from the blade and wub's is less than 1. Is this correct? Assuming the hit from wub's is un needed. I personally would have thought the blade would be more than 1 DPS increase.
#1850SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Sataniss View Post
I have the +hit covered from gear so I don't have to gem for it luckily. Thanks for the advice on the meta choice which also opens up my gem choices further. Lastly, assuming you have equal opportunity to both red/orange gems, would you fully outfit yourself in red gems (ignoring socket bonus's) or red/orange gems to obtain the socket bonus's? I guess it may fall into some level of gear dependancy so I'm sitting in half SSC/TK, half MH/BT gear
Take the socket bonus on all sunwell items. The difference between 10 haste, 5 haste/6 dmg, and 12 dmg is small enough to go for any +dmg bonus, IMO.
#1851SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
Maxdps.com shows the Shroud of the highborne slightly higher(reverse of spreadsheet) than Cloak of the illidari Council. You can punch in the stats into the spreadsheet v2.2 and you'll see the Council cloak is not far ahead of the healing cloak.

I guess it depends on what spreadsheet or website you want to go by but I havent seen any that has the healing cloak significantly lower than anything else and in fact is best in slot on some...

EDIT: Btw Flamingcloud whats the cast time of your bolts? Looks like you have about 9% haste rating which is hot!!
Um, 2.29 in the setup I had logged off in..

I wouldn't trust maxdps for much of anything, if the spreadsheet shows council higher, i'd believe it.


Originally Posted by Lerker View Post
Quick question in weapon choice for 0/21/40 lock(shadow) -

I'm currently using Wub's from dragonhawk in ZA. I recently picked up the Blade of Twisted Visions from zul'jin, and have it banked for 2.4

According to leulier's spreadsheet even with the 2.4 haste changes, the DPS increase from the blade and wub's is less than 1. Is this correct? Assuming the hit from wub's is un needed. I personally would have thought the blade would be more than 1 DPS increase.
I show twisted at 288.41 in both fields, and wub's at 298.42 counting hit, and 272.39 not counting hit... A 16 point difference.


I found found in practice that spell haste seems to be even better than the spreadsheets indicate (ring of ancient knowledge vs band of the eternal sage)
#1852SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Eph
I too have almost always found the Healing cloak to be 2nd best in slot behind Illidari cloak.
#1853SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Darumafm
Spellcloth viable for Destro?

I have read the post by the op and was wondering if Spellcloth because of the fire damage would be a viable spec for raiding rather than shadowcloth. This was something that me and my wife who has a Shadow Priest were wondering about since Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft this posted build has is built for fire damage. I have been 70 with my Lock for awhile and had never used Elitist Jerks until it was recommended by a friend for my Shaman. So I just spec'd her with a traditional raiding spec. This is her Armory link I am new to Elititst Jerks and posting on the Forums and I hope it is ok to add this link to my post. I thought it might help. The World of Warcraft Armory

Last edited by Darumafm : 03/12/08 at 12:48 PM.
#1854SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Darumafm View Post
I have read the post by the op and was wondering if Spellcloth because of the fire damage would be a viable spec for raiding rather than shadowcloth. This was something that me and my wife who has a Shadow Priest were wondering about since Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft this posted build has is built for fire damage. I have been 70 with my Lock for awhile and had never used Elitist Jerks until it was recommended by a friend for my Shaman. So I just spec'd her with a traditional raiding spec. This is her Armory link I am new to Elititst Jerks and posting on the Forums and I hope it is ok to add this link to my post. I thought it might help. The World of Warcraft Armory

Regards,
Darumafm
Welcome to the boards. Word of advice to a first time poster: no need to sign your posts.

About your question: it's hard to tell, really. I typically don't speculate on test realms, given that they can change at any time (i.e. the life tap changes). I'll make an exception here.

Fire destro seems to be getting a nice buff, which will probably make it better than shadow in smaller groups (say a heroic or 10 man without a shadow priest). End game raiding probably will still be see shadow win, since ISB is still a main factor. But it'll be closer and very much depending on raid setup and fights. This is all hypothetical and subject to change. Currently I wouldn't bet my money either way.

I'd recommend not making the set just yet. You could level tailoring and specialize already, building a cloth supply, if you so wish.
#1855SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pyralissa
I uh... actually have a full set of crafted spellfire in my bank from early on in TBC when Incinerate looked like the new Shadow Bolt. Lots of scaling issues later.. let's just say I haven't taken the spellfire out of the bank in awhile.

I personally think the ability to switch between fire and shadow depending on the situation is going to be very useful (especially in ten mans where you might have a fire mage and not have a shadow priest, or enough warlocks to carry ISB) but lifetap not scaling through +fire damage is a fairly significant drawback.
#1856SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Brachamul
Hey all,

I've recently been dwelling a lot on Destro and I've got a question for you.

It seems to be much agreed upon that ISB is a big boost to raid DPS on top of just the Warlock's, but I'm not really convinced about that.

About shadow priests, they will munch up charges with their [Shadow Word : Death] and their [Mind Blast], these spells are very weak compared to a Warlock's [Shadow Bolt]. I was thinking, in the end, doesn't the fact that priests will sometimes stop the warlock from using a charge overall reduce the effectiveness of ISB?

I mean, if you're at 35% crit, you'll throw in about 65 charges a minute, and use you yourself about 40. That's barely 25 charges left for the priests, wouldnt they munch through that very fast in a minute's time? Especially for raids that have a lot of Shadow Priests.

Otherwise, what if there was one warlock playing Shadow with ISB, applying debuffs for the raid, and other warlocks were damaging with Fire?

I've personally found that for 1100 spell damage, hitcapped and 30% critrate (including talents), Fire would deal more damage than spamming Shadow Bolt, even if all the Bolts were boosted by ISB. This is a table recording the results of my calculations. I would post the excel file, but I don't know where to host it.


Note: By DPS I mean damage divided by cast time. Minimal cast time is 1.5 seconds, global cooldown.

This includes Scorch, Misery, Shadow Weaving, CoE, CoS, Chaotic Skyfire metagem, all interesting Destro talents and no Demonic Sacrifice.

Using these numbers, I find that an Immolate + Incinerate x5 cycle would deal 1477 dps with Sacrificed Imp, while spamming Shadow Bolt would deal only 1429 dps with Sacrificed Succubus. Also, Fire is much more Mana efficient.

Also, murdering your imp is just plainly psychologicaly satisfying.

Last edited by Brachamul : 03/12/08 at 5:34 AM.
#1857SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Brachamul View Post
Hey all,

I've recently been dwelling a lot on Destro and I've got a question for you.
You seem to be forgetting that ISB will also boost all shadow based dots. All Corruptions, CoAs, UA, SW:P, Mind Flay, VT, Siphon Lifes, everything is being boosted while ISB is up. It does not just boost the 4 spells that remove charges.

Also, you're wrong about efficiency. Incinerate is a faster spell now, thus requiring more casts. In addition, it requires Immolate which is horribly expensive.

Assuming no haste, no latency and no mana reducing talents:
Fire cycle: Immolate + 6 * Incinerate (15 sec) : 2585 mana
Shadow cycle: Shadow Bolt * 6 (15 sec) : 2520 mana

This is assuming that you can squeeze 6 incinerates into the 15 second time frame for Immolate. If you can't, you'll do 5 making it even better for the Shadow Bolt side.

In addition, Shadow users can use +shadow damage items and get more mana out of life tap. This however might change with post 2.4 itemisation, I have to admit I haven't looked at those in depth. If all best items come with generic +damage there, this argument would no longer be valid.


Myself, I'm interested to see how this plays out. I'll try and update ShadowSeer when 2.4. is out, and see what the results are. I'd love be able to play with the much prettier Incinerate for a change.

Last edited by Arelenda : 03/12/08 at 7:46 AM.
#1858SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Halens
Immolate Vs No-immolate As affliction?

I know this is a bit off topic, and is in the glossary of the Compendium however I wanted some further insight on the matter. My friend, who had my apply to his guild is 4/5 T6(Nick is Cained from Kilrogg in Still Life). I'm Spellstrike/FSW/Random pieces from TK/SSC(Minolta on armory). I am also 41/0/20 UA spec.

My friend stated his argument that because I have more shadow dmg pieces in my gear (1089 Shadowdmg, 891 Firedmg with FA) that I would benefit more from NOT using Immolate. Now at first I was skeptical, so I went to leuilir's and began calculating. According to the spreadsheet, at 1200 shadow-damage, and 1200 fire damage I would lose 25 DPS. At my current gear setting, I would lose 15 DPS. Now I'm trying weigh this between 60% more of an extra shadowbolt VS. a lesser damage Immolate. I have not gotten a chance to test it in a raid enviorment YET, however my friend is wanting me to test it out tomorrow in my trial. Is he correct and the spreadsheet wrong about the DPS gain, or is he mistaken?

In theory it make sense I just don't understand why the spreadsheet sees it other-wise.

The consumables I use are Flask of puredeath
Spelldmg food
MH spelldmg Elixir
Mana Potions/Health Potions
#1859SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3gargosch
Immolate Vs No-immolate As affliction?

Immolates base damage is 942, SB 572 so you need a lot more shadow damage, haste (befor 2.4) and crit to make SB better then immolate.

Easy solotion to check this is to use Dr. Damage. Calculate the dps in raid depending on what debuff you have on the
target. Depends a lot if you have SP, firemage, CoS(talented), CoE(talented) and ISB on the target. IF SB is close to
immolate in dps use Sb because it use less mana per second.
#1860SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pentamorfi
The general rule of thumb I've found to work in most cases is that in every 'normal gear' scenario (and by 'normal' I mean you don't have something crazy like 500 shadow damage more than fire), Immolate is a small DPS increase for affliction. On the other hand, 4/5 t6 and destro spec means you could safely drop Immolate.
#1861SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Emolate
Originally Posted by Darumafm View Post
I have read the post by the op and was wondering if Spellcloth because of the fire damage would be a viable spec for raiding rather than shadowcloth. This was something that me and my wife who has a Shadow Priest were wondering about since Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft this posted build has is built for fire damage.
Spellfire gear lacks the hit and stam that FSW has.

I have actually made the swap on the live realms already for testing and playing around a bit.

My typical 25-man raid composition will always have 2-4 mages spec'ed Icy Veins/Fire or Fire/Arcane. We may have a shadow priest. We will have another Warlock or two. One is Affliction/Ruin and the other is Demo 0/40/21.

In my 10-mans I will rarely have a Shadow Priest and frequently have a Fire Mage.

I went fire and have loved it. I have less +dmg and it is harder to get hit-capped, but I'm doing a lot more damage. I'm also doing a lot better on AoE encounters (Solarian/Jan'alai) due to Rain of Fire having less threat than Seed of Corruption, and the fire damage buffs help Rain of Fire hit harder. Since there are cases where I am the only Warlock (and I have been the sole shadow user at least once in Tempest Keep), I was putting up CoR and rotating CoE anyway, so I figure I may as well align myself with the Mages.

Even if I don't sacrifice the Imp I can push 950-1000dps out, and have been able to maintain 1100-1300 on a fight like Void Reaver, which is no small feat for someone in 2pT4 and craftable gear.

I have just the Spellfire robe, Spellstrike hood and pants, and I'm using T4 shoulders and gloves.

My other suit is Mantle of the Elven Kings, Spellstrike Hood, Voidheart Gloves & Pants.

I've been having great results with my move to Fire. It looks like it will get a nice bump in 2.4, too.
#1862SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kabale
What spec were you using as shadow? UA in FSW will beat Fire any day of the week at your gear level/progression. Probably even without a shadow priest. Not having a shadow priest in your raid is like having a dps warrior for tank - don't do it.
#1863SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Halens
Originally Posted by Kabale View Post
What spec were you using as shadow? UA in FSW will beat Fire any day of the week at your gear level/progression. Probably even without a shadow priest. Not having a shadow priest in your raid is like having a dps warrior for tank - don't do it.
Well they are just taking us to SSC/TK for a trial. They will be then gearing whoever 'wins' up in preparation for sunwell. They will have a shadowpriest but I believe there arn't any mages who stack scorch so in my case immolate would be a liability I can see. My spec is 41/0/20
#1864SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Brachamul
Easy question, do talents like the +10% shadow damage increase or the succubus' sacrifice increase the power of Life Tap by 10% or 15%?
#1865SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Fizwidget
Originally Posted by Brachamul View Post
Easy question, do talents like the +10% shadow damage increase or the succubus' sacrifice increase the power of Life Tap by 10% or 15%?
Nope, just 80% of +spell (and +Shadow) damage as listed on your character sheet.
#1866SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Emolate
Originally Posted by Kabale View Post
What spec were you using as shadow? UA in FSW will beat Fire any day of the week at your gear level/progression. Probably even without a shadow priest. Not having a shadow priest in your raid is like having a dps warrior for tank - don't do it.
I was using this spec.

Even with a Shadow Priest or two in the raid, I would have one other Warlock.

We are a very casual guild. We don't have any requirements on anyone other than survivability. This hasn't prevented us from being 2/4 TK, however.

Frankly I'm of the opinion that I'm hopelessly stupid at Affliction. I could never make it work the way other people could. I get much better results in 0/40/21 or 0/21/40 fire or shadow.
#1867SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Turbo Moses
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
Take the socket bonus on all sunwell items. The difference between 10 haste, 5 haste/6 dmg, and 12 dmg is small enough to go for any +dmg bonus, IMO.
Agreed, but if it isn't about meeting a socket/meta bonus and you're capped, go for haste. It's a larger DPS increase.
#1868SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by Turbo Moses View Post
Agreed, but if it isn't about meeting a socket/meta bonus and you're capped, go for haste. It's a larger DPS increase.
According to the spreadsheet the ranking is +12dmg, +6dmg/5haste, +10haste. (atleast at my gear level, as well as at end sunwell gear level.. didn't test a middle sunwell level)
#1869SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
According to the spreadsheet the ranking is +12dmg, +6dmg/5haste, +10haste. (atleast at my gear level, as well as at end sunwell gear level.. didn't test a middle sunwell level)
Basically my viewpoint. 10 haste might beat 12 dmg ever so slightly now, but I'm not convinced that will be the case when I have so much more haste thru gear than I do now.
#1870SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
Basically my viewpoint. 10 haste might beat 12 dmg ever so slightly now, but I'm not convinced that will be the case when I have so much more haste thru gear than I do now.
Heh diminishing returns on haste is interesting.... If my gems are a mix of reckless pyrestone, and crimson spinel, it tells me +10haste is the best gem.. If I change all my gems to 10haste.. it tells me +12dmg is the best.. Seems like the tipping point is around 16-17% haste(although this probably changes at different gear levels.. this is +1650shadow, 17%haste 16%hit 28%crit). After that point it goes +12dmg > +6dmg/+5haste > +10haste.. before that point it goes +10haste > +6dmg/5+haste >+12dmg
#1871SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3zanaris
Haste Rating in 2.4 and warlocks

I wanted to make a new thread for this because I haven't seen this kind of question truly addressed in any thread let alone a completely new one, and the GCD change with haste rating is going to affect all caster classes.

I think it's safe to say that Haste is a dps increase for all caster classes with a passive regeneration of mana. However do warlocks benefit from haste rating at all?

Lifetap will now scale with haste rating, however it will not scale nearly as well as it does with shadowbolt, ex.


Here is what 113 haste does to the GCD versus shadowbolt.

GCD - 1.5 seconds to 1.399
Shadowbolt - 2.5 seconds to 2.332

As you can see, LT obviously does not scale as well as shadowbolt does. Basically what i'm asking is, does haste even increase dps for locks?

I havent actually cranked out the numbers, just because I fear I will be too inaccurate. So I came here to see if anyone has done research on this sort of thing. The only thing i can logically come up with is spell dmg> haste because if anything, it increases our dps AND our mana regen, where as haste would increase our dps (if at all) and decrease our DPM/mana increase our mana regen (because faster lifetaps) but would need to LT more per minute thus requiring more true tapping time.

The only page i found anything about haste and warlocks was in this thread, and it linked me to Passive Haste studies. and imo this information is outdated with 2.4 being just a month or two away.

Any information looking into this would be greatly appreciated.
#1872SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dakalro
Think about it logically. In 2.3 haste increases dps and mana consumption so amount of lifetaps by let's say same %. But this is still a dps increase, on par with +dmg atm.
In 2.4 it will also reduce LT time by a %, with a gross estimation that 0 haste in 60 seconds will be exactly squeezed into a lower amount of time with haste. So even higher dps increase, basicly complete time compression for all spells of all casters (cooldown tied casters like spriests have it a bit different).

You don't have to have same amount of time reduced to make it as good for LT, if you had then it would be not as good but a lot better for LT.
For example, if atm you do some damage in 1 minute, next patch you'd do same damage in 54.5s with 10% haste.
#1873SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Cronjob
I need a bit of advice. I had been running with Robes of Rohnin but yesteday I was able to get the T6 robes and T6 helm. I was under the impression that the rhonin robes were better than T6 robes however when I punch them into the spreadsheet imy DPM and DPS goes down. I thought using the Rhonin robes and the rest T6 was better than full T6? The item value appears better but on the DPS tab when I equpt it the DPS and DPM go down.

Am I overlooking something?
#1874SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dakalro
Difference is minor. Only sensible upgrades over t6 are illidan head, leggings of channeled elements or vashj chest, with erm reverse order from highest to lowest difference.
#1875SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3zanaris
Originally Posted by dakalro View Post
Think about it logically. In 2.3 haste increases dps and mana consumption so amount of lifetaps by let's say same %. But this is still a dps increase, on par with +dmg atm.
In 2.4 it will also reduce LT time by a %, with a gross estimation that 0 haste in 60 seconds will be exactly squeezed into a lower amount of time with haste. So even higher dps increase, basicly complete time compression for all spells of all casters (cooldown tied casters like spriests have it a bit different).

You don't have to have same amount of time reduced to make it as good for LT, if you had then it would be not as good but a lot better for LT.
For example, if atm you do some damage in 1 minute, next patch you'd do same damage in 54.5s with 10% haste.
I think you missunderstood me, haste will be a dps increase, but at what level? The link i provided stated it would be an increase in dps at around 1400 spell dmg, but that value is sure to change in 2.4 with the GCD change.

However an interesting note that the link claims is that haste is almost 10% (I believe the actual value is 9.4%) more expensive than +dmg in terms of gear.

This is a very confusing subject with very intricate math, I would appreciate an explanation with math, and an explanation to that math. (The link I showed you is pretty well explained, even though confusing.)

I'd like to see something along the lines of that link, again it is
Passive Haste studies.

I realize i'm being picky, but I just want somewhere to start if no one has done anysort of math/testing on this subject.
#1876SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by zanaris View Post
I think you missunderstood me, haste will be a dps increase, but at what level? The link i provided stated it would be an increase in dps at around 1400 spell dmg, but that value is sure to change in 2.4 with the GCD change.

However an interesting note that the link claims is that haste is almost 10% (I believe the actual value is 9.4%) more expensive than +dmg in terms of gear.

This is a very confusing subject with very intricate math, I would appreciate an explanation with math, and an explanation to that math. (The link I showed you is pretty well explained, even though confusing.)

I'd like to see something along the lines of that link, again it is
Passive Haste studies.

I realize i'm being picky, but I just want somewhere to start if no one has done anysort of math/testing on this subject.
You seem to not grasp that even though 10% haste only take 0.15s off Life Tap, it still is the same benefit as taking 0.25s off Shadow Bolt. Haste is quite uniform in this aspect. I'll calculate the formula to try and explain the concept.


For destro it is fairly straightforward:
Let A be your dps with no haste. Take your total damage over a given time frame, say T seconds.
Unhasted damage = A * T.

If you now obtain haste rating B, you'll be able to cast the same spell sequence faster, doing the same damage, but in less time.
The new time is T / (1 + B / 1577)

To calculate your new dps, you divide total damage A*T by the new time frame T / (1 + B / 1577). This gives you the following formula:

hasted dps = A * (1 + B / 1577)

Mind you, there is a cap at 33% haste (500+ haste rating), because you can't speed spells up below 1 second.


For affliction it's less beneficial. Aside from reducing the dot gap, which is probably not that big of a deal, you'll have more time to cast shadow bolts which are your your lowest dps filler spell. There have been a few attempts in this thread to model it, I'm sure you can dig around in those. This is assuming one target. Multiple targets will make haste a LOT more attractive.

For demonology haste is obviously less important since it doesn't add dps to your demon. It'll still be good though.

Either way, the spreadsheet should accurately tell you what your benefit from haste is.


In my opinion haste is pretty damn good aside from the spreadsheet conclusions. It effectively lowers your reaction time with spells that have a cast time like banish/fear. It also increases your aoe abilities significantly, and none of the other stats do this.
#1877SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rochan
Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
I need a bit of advice. I had been running with Robes of Rohnin but yesteday I was able to get the T6 robes and T6 helm. I was under the impression that the rhonin robes were better than T6 robes however when I punch them into the spreadsheet imy DPM and DPS goes down. I thought using the Rhonin robes and the rest T6 was better than full T6? The item value appears better but on the DPS tab when I equpt it the DPS and DPM go down.

Am I overlooking something?
You are pretty much completely wrong there. 4pc T6 + Kazrogal Legs are "the best" closely followed by Illidan helm (but really who wants to give up their WINGS?).
#1878SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Cronjob
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
You are pretty much completely wrong there. 4pc T6 + Kazrogal Legs are "the best" closely followed by Illidan helm (but really who wants to give up their WINGS?).
I agree that the Elements pants + 4 pc T6 is "the best" but I wasn't asking about "the best" overall. I was just asking what was better full T6 or Rhonin + 4 pc T6.

On a side note is there a set lifetap rotation or ideal life tap rotation for destro locks? For example 5 bolts 2 taps or 4 bolts 3 taps. etc etc. Is there such a thing or is it too dynamic do to encounters and does the spreadsheet show this somewhere.
#1879SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
I agree that the Elements pants + 4 pc T6 is "the best" but I wasn't asking about "the best" overall. I was just asking what was better full T6 or Rhonin + 4 pc T6.

On a side note is there a set lifetap rotation or ideal life tap rotation for destro locks? For example 5 bolts 2 taps or 4 bolts 3 taps. etc etc. Is there such a thing or is it too dynamic do to encounters and does the spreadsheet show this somewhere.
The rotation is "Always be casting something" -- if you need mana, tap. In fights with lots of damage, it's probably best to sprinkle life taps over time to avoid a death. If health isn't a concern, life tap when all cooldowns are down and you're doing the least possible damage.
#1880SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
rochan
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
You seem to not grasp that even though 10% haste only take 0.15s off Life Tap, it still is the same benefit as taking 0.25s off Shadow Bolt. Haste is quite uniform in this aspect. I'll calculate the formula to try and explain the concept.


For destro it is fairly straightforward:
Let A be your dps with no haste. Take your total damage over a given time frame, say T seconds.
Unhasted damage = A * T.

If you now obtain haste rating B, you'll be able to cast the same spell sequence faster, doing the same damage, but in less time.
The new time is T / (1 + B / 1577)

To calculate your new dps, you divide total damage A*T by the new time frame T / (1 + B / 1577). This gives you the following formula:

hasted dps = A * (1 + B / 1577)

Mind you, there is a cap at 33% haste (500+ haste rating), because you can't speed spells up below 1 second.


For affliction it's less beneficial. Aside from reducing the dot gap, which is probably not that big of a deal, you'll have more time to cast shadow bolts which are your your lowest dps filler spell. There have been a few attempts in this thread to model it, I'm sure you can dig around in those. This is assuming one target. Multiple targets will make haste a LOT more attractive.

For demonology haste is obviously less important since it doesn't add dps to your demon. It'll still be good though.

Either way, the spreadsheet should accurately tell you what your benefit from haste is.


In my opinion haste is pretty damn good aside from the spreadsheet conclusions. It effectively lowers your reaction time with spells that have a cast time like banish/fear. It also increases your aoe abilities significantly, and none of the other stats do this.
Good post, but if you call 33% haste a cap you should mention other caps. 33% haste cap isn't very significant as it applies only to lifetaps. The "hard cap" would be when your shadowbolts are cast at 1 second which would be 2366 haste rating, with a "heroism hard cap" at 1456 haste rating. So basically haste is still quite effective after 500 rating.

edit: Oh yeah Galzohar is correct, LT caps at 50% haste (789 rating), not 33%.

Last edited by rochan : 03/13/08 at 12:59 PM.
#1881SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
The rotation is "Always be casting something" -- if you need mana, tap. In fights with lots of damage, it's probably best to sprinkle life taps over time to avoid a death. If health isn't a concern, life tap when all cooldowns are down and you're doing the least possible damage.
"Always be casting something" sums it up pretty nicely. Obviously don't nuke right after threat resets (that is a good time to apply dots though). I typically will use my Life Tap/curse GCD to reposition myself, and if I'm required to move, I'll typically use that to tap as well. Obviously, don't go "Tap Happy" unless you know that it is safe to do so. I also try to keep my mana pool full when I know a heroism/bloodlust is about to hit, and I usually keep my health below the max so I benefit off Soul Leech (and FSW, although that has been a while).

If healer efficiency is a factor, I typically tap once and receive a heal over time effect, and make maximum use of that. However, 95% of raiding time has healers looking for something to do.
#1882SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
haste scaling

Lifetap will reach the cap at 50% haste, not 33%. Haste is a speed increase, not a cast time reduction. And even if you magically reach that, it just means haste goes back to its almost-as-good 2.3 values (affecting everything except 1.5s cast or instants).

As for 10 haste vs spell damage, the reason changing your stats makes the "winner" actaully change is that they're already extremely close to start with. While it's not a horrible assumption to make that your haste will drop in value vs +damage as you gear up with sunwell gear, remember that:
A. Your spell damage will also go up (maybe not as much as haste, but enough to not pre-jump to conclusions about haste vs damage without further research looking at full sunwell gear).
B. They're so close that even if damage ends up surpassing haste (per itemization point, 1 haste rating is realistically always better than 1 spell damage but costs more (see: gems)), it doesn't really make a difference. So much that the inaccuracy of even the spreadsheets is probably bigger than the difference between the stats.

As for maxDPS.com, I would advise avoiding it, as I noticed a few errors in it before even seeing how it actually calculates things - and heard it also calculates things wrong (such as using a 1 roll system which had been shown to be most likely incorrect - while doesn't make much difference on results when you're near the hit cap it shows the site is unreliable). Stick to spreadsheets that actually let the public see how things are calculated and give feedback so you get minimal amount of errors.
#1883SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Eph
[Leggings of Channeled Elements] offpiece is slightly better than [Vestments of the Sea-Witch] as the offpiece which is a little bit better than [Cowl of the Illidari High Lord] as the offpiece in most spread sheet tests I've done. I can't recall off hand, but I think T6 chest is slightly behind [Robes of Rhonin] test it on the sheets with your gear to be sure.

As far as haste and mana scaling, the only area where this is an issue now that life tap speed scales is other mana regen methods (pots, blessing, totem, sp). But since the majority of our mana still comes from life tap its not as significant, but it is definitely something to think about when gathering large amounts of haste over damage.

Last edited by Eph : 03/13/08 at 1:31 PM.
#1884SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
While there are diminishing returns with haste due to taking less advantage of your mana regen from non-lifetap sources, the actual effect is quite neglicible if you look at the spreadsheet. The main thing that makes more haste cause other stats to become better is simply becuase any stat you stack will make the other stats better due to them being multipicative (dps = damage per spell * crit multiplier * debuff multiplier * speed * etc...), so the partial derivative of dps by any of your stats will be higher when you increase any other stat but not when you increase the stat itself. That means that the more you increase crit, for example, the more dps you'd gain out of hit/damage/haste/etc but crit will still give the same increase (taking first order approximation of the dps increase of those stats, which is pretty damn close to their true value for realistic item upgrade changes).
#1885SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Dragones
Gems

nvm

Last edited by Dragones : 03/15/08 at 3:23 AM.
#1886SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Eph
I've actually found that +10 haste is showing up as the best dps in my sheet.
#1887SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Dragones View Post
So what gems is going to be better in 2.4 anyone done the math? 5 haste/6 dmg or +12 dmg?
You might find the last couple pages a good read. Or even the last post.
#1888SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3LockApologist
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
You might find the last couple pages a good read. Or even the last post.
Reading a thread before you post in it? Blasphemy.

Anyone found a way to measure ISB uptime from a WWS report? I know the spreadsheets have estimated values, but I don't think my raids are getting close to that number. I often see all 4 charges used before I can get my next cast off.
#1889SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
As for 10 haste vs spell damage, the reason changing your stats makes the "winner" actaully change is that they're already extremely close to start with. While it's not a horrible assumption to make that your haste will drop in value vs +damage as you gear up with sunwell gear, remember that:
A. Your spell damage will also go up (maybe not as much as haste, but enough to not pre-jump to conclusions about haste vs damage without further research looking at full sunwell gear).
B. They're so close that even if damage ends up surpassing haste (per itemization point, 1 haste rating is realistically always better than 1 spell damage but costs more (see: gems)), it doesn't really make a difference. So much that the inaccuracy of even the spreadsheets is probably bigger than the difference between the stats.
This is probably correct. The reason I suggest 12 dmg in red sockets, and 5/6 in yellows (rather than 10 haste in yellow and 5/6 in reds) is because I figure that more lifetapping means both more healing and more chances of accidentally getting gibbed (no matter how small that chance is).

Ultimately, using any of the 3 gems, and 2 greens/purples somewhere for the meta, is going to be the best approach.
#1890SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dakalro
I know I'll be, for the first time in like, ever, socketing for bonuses. With all gear filled with reckless pyrestones/spinels.

As it stands atm T6 shoulders + Illidan Head for meta fixin' seem like the best choice, to be replaced by a probable KJ head (at least haven't found a better combo yet which is why, unless I will find it, I'm setting myself in line for a "ninja" on Illidan head, which, just like Greatstaff and RoAK, I've passed plenty of times and now there's half the casters fighting over).
#1891SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Modez
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
You seem to not grasp that even though 10% haste only take 0.15s off Life Tap, it still is the same benefit as taking 0.25s off Shadow Bolt. Haste is quite uniform in this aspect. I'll calculate the formula to try and explain the concept.


For destro it is fairly straightforward:
Let A be your dps with no haste. Take your total damage over a given time frame, say T seconds.
Unhasted damage = A * T.

If you now obtain haste rating B, you'll be able to cast the same spell sequence faster, doing the same damage, but in less time.
The new time is T / (1 + B / 1577)

To calculate your new dps, you divide total damage A*T by the new time frame T / (1 + B / 1577). This gives you the following formula:

hasted dps = A * (1 + B / 1577)

Mind you, there is a cap at 33% haste (500+ haste rating), because you can't speed spells up below 1 second.


For affliction it's less beneficial. Aside from reducing the dot gap, which is probably not that big of a deal, you'll have more time to cast shadow bolts which are your your lowest dps filler spell. There have been a few attempts in this thread to model it, I'm sure you can dig around in those. This is assuming one target. Multiple targets will make haste a LOT more attractive.

For demonology haste is obviously less important since it doesn't add dps to your demon. It'll still be good though.

Either way, the spreadsheet should accurately tell you what your benefit from haste is.


In my opinion haste is pretty damn good aside from the spreadsheet conclusions. It effectively lowers your reaction time with spells that have a cast time like banish/fear. It also increases your aoe abilities significantly, and none of the other stats do this.
So to sum it up, t5-6 destro warlocks with decent haste just got buffed. Pretty hawt.

The owner of Blizzard must play a lock
#1892SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Madlax
Hm, gemming(chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta)
1484 spelldam, 29,42 crit, 200 hit rating, 366 haste(I call this default gear)
First line is SB, 2nd line is IM+IC.
1484= DPS median: 2137
1484= DPS median: 2178

I resocket all yellow slots to 10 haste, 1418dam, 421 haste:
1418= DPS median: 2121
1418= DPS median: 2181

Even resocketting all red gems to haste/dam, 1394dam, 441 haste:
1394= DPS median: 2118
1394= DPS median: 2169

These numbers puzzle me slightly, even though I ran 10k cycles to check.
Haste seems to be worth a little less than 1.2 dam for SB and IC which would be what most people said so far.
Running the numbers again with +265 spelldam for raid environment:
1749= DPS median: 2446
1749= DPS median: 2474

1683= DPS median: 2452
1683= DPS median: 2474

1659= DPS median: 2443
1659= DPS median: 2476

Well, my calculation would say that it is kinda exactly 1.2:1 - thus it doesn't matter at all which gem you socket from 12dam/10haste/5haste&6dam
Difference in those numbers is only 28:30 life taps(from 1749:1659)
#1893SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Spoonman
Is it worth having an affliction lock in raids? Assume (in 2.4) a raid with two caster groups, both have 3 casters (fire lock/mage), a shadow priest, and a shaman. The affl lock is in the tank group, providing a 13% coe. If all the other locks/mages do about 2k dps (reasonable figure considering raid setup and full t6 etc) then the total gain is 3% of 12k dps = 360 dps. Meanwhile, the affl lock is doing considerably less than 2k dps, and in my experience, less than 1650, resulting in a net dps loss for the raid. So for max dps purposes (ignoring the gain of imp + SE), all locks should be destro. Am I missing anything here, or is this correct?
#1894SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3PSGarak
You do not bring affliction warlocks because of Malediction. I'm a hardcore aff lock, and even I admit that--the loss of ISB uptime generally evens it out (subject to restrictions, may not apply to all cases), and the loss of personal DPS usually makes up any gain you might have been able to inch out.

You bring an affliction warlock to progression content for Shadow Embrace, because it's equivalent to 5% more tank stamina and 5% more healing on the tank. And while he's there, he's blood pact bitch if you have a spare spot in your tank group. When content becomes farm content that 5% stam/heal stops mattering so much. But on farm content, I don't see the point of min-maxing so much anyways. The way I tend to think of it is, Malediction makes up over the raid for some of the sacrifice of taking SE, which is often a required talent on hard fights.

You are correct that from a DPS-only perspective, all locks should be destro. I merely point out that a DPS-only perspective is not always appropriate.
#1895SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vazu
Originally Posted by Spoonman View Post
Is it worth having an affliction lock in raids? Assume (in 2.4) a raid with two caster groups, both have 3 casters (fire lock/mage), a shadow priest, and a shaman. The affl lock is in the tank group, providing a 13% coe. If all the other locks/mages do about 2k dps (reasonable figure considering raid setup and full t6 etc) then the total gain is 3% of 12k dps = 360 dps. Meanwhile, the affl lock is doing considerably less than 2k dps, and in my experience, less than 1650, resulting in a net dps loss for the raid. So for max dps purposes (ignoring the gain of imp + SE), all locks should be destro. Am I missing anything here, or is this correct?
Eh, unless you plan on being part of those first handful of guilds clearing Sunwell in a month or two, having an Affliction Warlock in your raid probably isn't going to break anything. It's obviously better overall to have three destro Warlocks for ISB uptime, but an Imp does have some nice utility while learning new content. Again, the stamina isn't game breaking, but it's utility. Also, Malediction while not crucial either, is noticable. Especially when you raid with 3-4 Warlocks and 2 shadow Priests like we do.
#1896SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Brachamul
And boomkins!
#1897SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Dracosani
This probably falls in the stupid question category but I wanted to silence the spread of misinformation. A Warlock in my guild claims COE somehow improves Rogue damage (poisons?) and that he tested it with a guild rogue on various mobs. I just wanted a nod from you folks here that this is complete BS as he wont believe me.
#1898SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 masanbol
CoE does not affect nature damage, or Elemental shamans would benefit from it as well. They do not.
#1899SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Xiteg
sorry if i am doing this wrong since i cannot seem to make a new thread for my question.

with the new incinerate coming out in 2.4 will this actually bring fire locks to be able to compete with shadow destruction?

or is the shadow coefficients still to good?
#1900SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Dracosani View Post
This probably falls in the stupid question category but I wanted to silence the spread of misinformation. A Warlock in my guild claims COE somehow improves Rogue damage (poisons?) and that he tested it with a guild rogue on various mobs. I just wanted a nod from you folks here that this is complete BS as he wont believe me.
It does not. He probably got confused with stormstrike, which does buff it.
#1901SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Xiteg View Post
sorry if i am doing this wrong since i cannot seem to make a new thread for my question.

with the new incinerate coming out in 2.4 will this actually bring fire locks to be able to compete with shadow destruction?

or is the shadow coefficients still to good?
Someone asked this already, someone answered this already. Please look before posting. Short answer: it depends.
#1902SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Eradorn
Choosing curses

In my 25-mans, we have 2 -3 locks most of the time. I am Aff/Ruin, the others are both Desto. One consistently uses CoS, and I haven't run enough with the other to determine what she uses, but I wonder what I should be casting. I gain SIGNIFICANT dps from Agony (imp agony and contagion) and before you say get rid of imp agony, where else to put those points? Yeah.

Is there a certain threshold where I should switch to Elements/Recklessness? I have read through and it seems to be debated, and the only example on the first page is Doom vs. Rec which helps me none. Would it be even better to be the one that casts shadow and get Malediction and make the Desto lock get the other?

I want to assist the raid, but it is hard enough keeping DPS up with hunters without losing my best DPS spell.

Thanks guys.
#1903SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Eradorn View Post
In my 25-mans, we have 2 -3 locks most of the time. I am Aff/Ruin, the others are both Desto. One consistently uses CoS, and I haven't run enough with the other to determine what she uses, but I wonder what I should be casting. I gain SIGNIFICANT dps from Agony (imp agony and contagion) and before you say get rid of imp agony, where else to put those points? Yeah.

Is there a certain threshold where I should switch to Elements/Recklessness? I have read through and it seems to be debated, and the only example on the first page is Doom vs. Rec which helps me none. Would it be even better to be the one that casts shadow and get Malediction and make the Desto lock get the other?

I want to assist the raid, but it is hard enough keeping DPS up with hunters without losing my best DPS spell.

Thanks guys.
You have malediction and you cast CoA? You really should be on CoS/E if you're that deep in affliction. The other locks should look at various forms of damage going out in raids. If 10% of the frost/fire DPS is greater than the DPS of CoD, then they should include that.
#1904SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Chir
3 locks and a standard raid set-up? If so then all 3 major debuff curses should be used. CoR is not only extra damage for Melee/Hunters (+ pets) - it's also extra threat for the tanks.

Agony will be a short-term gain for you, long-term loss for the raid.

As Tricky has also noted - If someone has Malediction then it should be a clear case of that person on CoS (as long as your using a standard raid set-up i.e. a couple of Spriests & 3 x Warlocks).

Last edited by Chir : 03/14/08 at 12:51 PM. Reason: clarification
#1905SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morwen
Originally Posted by Eradorn View Post
I want to assist the raid, but it is hard enough keeping DPS up with hunters without losing my best DPS spell.
Your utility curse *is* your dps. There's no competition to look good on meters while diminishing your actual contribution. No one tells a shaman, "you're not doing enough personal dps, stop dropping windfury totem," and it should be the same with warlock dps.

As far as the thresholds:

Shadows increases shadow/arcane damage and mana returned by shadow priests by 10-13%
Elements increases fire/frost damage by 10-13%
Recklessness increases physical damage by 5-6% and threat cap by some smaller amount
Agony/Doom increases personal dps by 100-200 (depending on gear/encounter)

Rank these according to what adds the most to raid dps for your particular raid.
#1906SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Xiteg
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Someone asked this already, someone answered this already. Please look before posting. Short answer: it depends.
no need to be a smart ass. the question is probably buried deep in a thread with a different title under different names.

and yes i did look through all the thread titles in the last 4 pages.
#1907SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wednesday
Originally Posted by Eradorn View Post
In my 25-mans, we have 2 -3 locks most of the time. I am Aff/Ruin, the others are both Desto. One consistently uses CoS, and I haven't run enough with the other to determine what she uses, but I wonder what I should be casting. I gain SIGNIFICANT dps from Agony (imp agony and contagion) and before you say get rid of imp agony, where else to put those points? Yeah.

Is there a certain threshold where I should switch to Elements/Recklessness? I have read through and it seems to be debated, and the only example on the first page is Doom vs. Rec which helps me none. Would it be even better to be the one that casts shadow and get Malediction and make the Desto lock get the other?

I want to assist the raid, but it is hard enough keeping DPS up with hunters without losing my best DPS spell.

Thanks guys.
If CoS isn't up, cast CoS. If CoR isn't up (and it's not mother/gruul past grow 7/other mob where CoR is bad), cast CoR. If CoE isn't up and you have at least two fire mages, cast CoE. If all of the above are met and CoT or CoW won't make a difference, you should cast CoD or amped CoA.

If you're not Demo or Destro, you should have Malediction and Shadow Embrace. You should also take UA over Ruin.
#1908SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Xiteg View Post
no need to be a smart ass. the question is probably buried deep in a thread with a different title under different names.

and yes i did look through all the thread titles in the last 4 pages.
It's in this thread multiple times. People are likely to have come up with most questions you could come up with. It's worth verifying it's at least not in the thread in which you're asking.
#1909SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Cronjob
Originally Posted by Xiteg View Post
no need to be a smart ass. the question is probably buried deep in a thread with a different title under different names.

and yes i did look through all the thread titles in the last 4 pages.
He is not being a smart ass about it... If you had read through you would have seen it, trying looking for posts around the date that the change was announced on the PTR, you'll find lots of data and tests that were done on PTR and on spreadsheets.
#1910SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Eradorn
Thanks for the responses. This helps chose between the curses (we have 2 always, sometimes 3 locks).

As for UA vs. Ruin, I thought that Ruin scales better as per this thread (first page). Has this been reversed? Looking through, it seems like there is a LOT of disagreement here.

Thanks again for all the help.
#1911SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Eph
Originally Posted by Eradorn View Post
Thanks for the responses. This helps chose between the curses (we have 2 always, sometimes 3 locks).

As for UA vs. Ruin, I thought that Ruin scales better as per this thread (first page). Has this been reversed? Looking through, it seems like there is a LOT of disagreement here.

Thanks again for all the help.
It depends on your gear, fill out the spread sheet with what you are wearing and try different specs. For me ruin started topping UA when I had a bit of BT/HY gear.
#1912SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
It's also impossible to determine a breakpoint in gear as even if you assume hit capped, the more spell damage you have the more crit you will need for ruin to surpass UA. So as your gear goes up the minimum crit required goes up as well, but the crit required doesn't go up as fast as your actual crit chance so you will eventually reach it. Also having the 4/5 T6 bonus drops the crit requirement for ruin to top UA noticeably.

At the end remember that if in a stand and shoot fight you play the same as the spreadsheet is assuming (regarding dot-gap, delay between casts, etc), and it tells you UA and ruin builds are equal, in practice UA will be a little better due to multi-dotting and losing less DPS to movement (as you cast DoTs while standing still for 8.33% of the time while those dots do a LOT more than 8.33% of your DPS). With enough movement the crit requirement for ruin to beat UA goes up, especially if it's a lot of movement that you can choose when to do, but also if it's random there's a very high chance you will have to move in between UAs - worst case would be having to move right before needing to refresh UA you'd lose the same relative DPS as ruin would lose. Any other case would favor UA.
#1913SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wingalock
Originally Posted by Eph View Post
I've actually found that +10 haste is showing up as the best dps in my sheet.
To me, on my spreadsheet, I've found that the best dps gems are Reckless Pyrestone (5 haste/6 dmg) or Runed Crimson Spinel (12 dmg) interchangeably after hit is capped of course.
#1914SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Emolate
Originally Posted by Xiteg View Post
no need to be a smart ass. the question is probably buried deep in a thread with a different title under different names.

and yes i did look through all the thread titles in the last 4 pages.
Elitist Jerks - Announcements in Forum : Public Discussion
#1915SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhadd
Does anyone know the change to spirit increased our pet's mana regen as well? I have been trying to get on the ptr to see for myself but one of the patches kept corrupting it.
#1916SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Rhadd View Post
Does anyone know the change to spirit increased our pet's mana regen as well? I have been trying to get on the ptr to see for myself but one of the patches kept corrupting it.
As far as I know, pet mana regen is currently independent of your stats. It will be affected by the new spirit changes, so pet mana regen is likely to change a bit. And since it's Int score is boosted by yours, that will affect it.

I have to admit that I'm at a loss to find a scenario where gear based boosts to pet mana OO5SR mana regen would actually matter.
#1917SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhadd
Actually the one thing I wanted to test was if having a higher than average int value, possibly through the fel intellect talent, would be able to give higher than intended mana regen values to help out affliction warlocks to dark pact more often. It might help while leveling(as if it wasn't easy enough to level as a warlock), but you are right, there really are not many places where taking advantage of this would be beneficial.
#1918SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Akj
I remember reading a post on the wow forums about the imp having 80 odd additional mp5 due to the spirit change. With BoK, BoW, sporeling snacks, arcane intellect buffs I'm sure there'll be a notable increase in the imp's regen. I do not see it affecting affliction dps though.

Edit: Found a couple of anecdotal posts in this thread. Wish we had more numbers.

Last edited by Akj : 03/15/08 at 6:31 AM.
#1919SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Dark pact is already returning almost as little mana as life tap does in 2.3. Having the imp regen more or even having the imp out doesn't provide any dps increase worth mentioning. To clarify, on the spreadsheet I lose less than 1 DPS by disabling dark pact completely. Aside from talents that give 0 dps, dark pact is probably the worst "DPS per point" talent in the game ;p
Therefore no matter how much you increase your imp's regen, the dps increases resulting will be neglicible.
#1920SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3KnThrak
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Dark pact is already returning almost as little mana as life tap does in 2.3. Having the imp regen more or even having the imp out doesn't provide any dps increase worth mentioning. To clarify, on the spreadsheet I lose less than 1 DPS by disabling dark pact completely. Aside from talents that give 0 dps, dark pact is probably the worst "DPS per point" talent in the game ;p
Therefore no matter how much you increase your imp's regen, the dps increases resulting will be neglicible.
I think this is due to how the spreadsheet works.
If you enable Dark Pact it first drains the pet empty, then Lifetaps onwards. So if you disable Dark Pact, it "merely" replaced the existant Dark Pacts with Lifetaps, enabling Dark Pact doesn't mean you use 0 Lifetaps.

And that's the gain:
The more of your manaregen is from DP (not LT), the less healing you need. THe more the healers love you

(edit)
Erm, for clarification: Yeah, there is no DPS gain. There is a HNPS (healing needed per second) loss though
#1921SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by KnThrak View Post
I think this is due to how the spreadsheet works.
If you enable Dark Pact it first drains the pet empty, then Lifetaps onwards. So if you disable Dark Pact, it "merely" replaced the existant Dark Pacts with Lifetaps, enabling Dark Pact doesn't mean you use 0 Lifetaps.

And that's the gain:
The more of your manaregen is from DP (not LT), the less healing you need. THe more the healers love you

(edit)
Erm, for clarification: Yeah, there is no DPS gain. There is a HNPS (healing needed per second) loss though
They really should change dark pact regardless. Perhaps make it a reverse soul link; 20% of the mana cost of your spells is drained from your pet instead.
#1922SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3PSGarak
It's already the best grinding talent in the game, and in raids it completely erases one of the two disadvantages to our sole longevity tool. Not everything has to give a strict ideal-brick-wall raid-DPS increase to be a worthwhile talent. Having to damage myself is an acceptable part of the class; being able to damage myself less is a welcome benefit.
#1923SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
For grinding as affliction just go to legion hold (center area with the fast respawning warlocks) with a healer - you'll need him to loot mobs for you (ffa loot) more than you'll need him to heal you, but you will definitely consume mana way faster than your pet regenerates. I suppose using only UA and corruption (and a SL added on the few higher HP mobs around there) for spells helps the mana/sec usage go way up though
#1924SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Perestroika
I use Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft for farming legion hold warlocks. Siphon Life -> Curse of Agony -> Corruption and the mob will die. Sacrificed VW, Shadow Ward whenever it is up, Siphon Life ticks, and Death Coil will be enough to sustain your mana output and the damage you will take, with no downtime at all. Any shadow resist you can get is also godly.

There are a few useless talents in that build but it's mostly to get to the important things. With this spec and the three DoT method of farming I can do 80-100 marks an hour along with whatever cloth, greens, and armaments I get. I'm sure there are people that could do much better then me aswell.
#1925SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dakalro
Just using a simple SL/SL build for Legion Hold, Siphon->Corr->CoA with SLed Succu on defensive. 2T5 + 2T6 and some Drain Souls from time to time make for 0 downtime. Only 1 problem, needs a looter for effectiveness since the mobs seem to have a very fast despawn time.
Managed to keep about 2/3 of the place cleared when I wanted to drive other people farming away but normally, solo, it's slower since you have to loot all the long line of corpses in time.
#1926SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
With a healer you're saving yourself a global cooldown on every mob and being allowed to be completely careless on top of the main reason of having someone to loot for you. I doubt you can match 1/2 the marks/hour one could do when combined with a healer, although I'm not completely sure.
#1927SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Roaminggnome
I'm sure at some point your effective marks/hour would be limited by mob respawn time, assuming that you really can clear 2/3 of the place running solo. In fact, you might make less since you are splitting your gains with your healbot.
#1928SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dakalro
It's limited by corpse despawn time. I never kill more than 10-12 mobs continuously but when it gets too crowded I just run and dot continuously to scare away competition. Of course, most of the loot there is lost but with a looter ... that's the speed.
And if it has to be a looter then something that can also do 1-2k healing now and then would be best since sometimes you do lose hp, nothing that can't be refilled with killing 1 mob with SL+Corr+CoS + both drains but it happens (fear, a mob manages to cast the fire thingy).

As for my speed during killing, it's 7 insta casts/cycle, 2x 3 dots, 1x LT, repeat until you think corpses might start despawning or you get bored if you got someone doing the looting for you.

Also, I avoid the elite and the warlock mobs.
#1929SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
For grinding as affliction just go to legion hold (center area with the fast respawning warlocks) with a healer - you'll need him to loot mobs for you (ffa loot) more than you'll need him to heal you, but you will definitely consume mana way faster than your pet regenerates. I suppose using only UA and corruption (and a SL added on the few higher HP mobs around there) for spells helps the mana/sec usage go way up though
Can't you just put on your BT shadow res gear?
#1930SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Eph
I just keep my raid spec for grinding there and one shot if I crit. I've only been there with a healer a few times (a feral druid who helps kill a little too while giving me heals, gathering mobs, and looting everything.) Together we pretty much doubled my solo gold per hour but of course we split it in the end so there hasn't really been a gain.
#1931SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3anton
This question is for all BT-clearing/cleared warlocks and/or guilds out there:

Our guild has had Illidan on farm now for about 2 months. We're clearing BT in one night (our best so far is a little over 4 and a half hours). That said, we've been having a little discrepancies with proper grouping, mainly from the warlock PoV.

Us warlocks have seemed to viewed as the black sheep of the guild the past month. I won't get into details, but mainly, every other class is represented at the officer chat level and generally people get what they want in their group. The guild leader is a fury warrior and the 3 officers are a holy priest (she's also the raid leader), mage, and hunter.

We have been pushing for at least a shaman the past month. I've done some research and I've pretty much determined that rogues and warlocks are the 2 best DPS classes at the PvE level. We might have 2, maybe 3 spriest per raid, and we might have 2 maybe 3 resto shamans per raid. However, those 2 spriests and 2 shamans were normally reserved for the raid leader and mage officer, and rarely we would ever get one prior to having Illidan down. For the past month, we've been pushing for a shaman and we do get it for the most part. A spriest is still a treat, however they keep hinting that this will change in 2.4 (cause of the spirit change?)

It's just that every other WWS parse I've looked, the warlocks seemed to be treated like kings. They get a shaman, maybe 2 (or at least 2 bloodlusts), spriest, a leather worker or 2 (for drums, but I won't be picky, just making a point). And we don't do horrible either, damage wise, there's always a lock in the top 5 for all the bosses, maybe 2 (or more) depending on the fight.

Now, I'm not trying to bash my guild, I love my guild. We are disciplined (for as much as we screw around), we have fun, we make fun of each other, and we have an extremely light raiding schedule when we aren't pushing content, yet we progress. It's just that I think our guild is undermining the potential that us warlocks have as a class and they keep blaming us about someone pulling 2 months ago as an excuse or reason to hinder increasing our DPS in case "it happens again."

I guess my question is if I was wrong in thinking that warlocks are not a great DPS class, or that it's just a matter of standing and that I just don't have a say in the matter. Or maybe I'm right and our guild underestimates the warlock as a class, and it's potential and how they should exploit the fact that we are powerful and that I should make a point about this in a drama-free manner. Any idea/comments would be nice, thanks.
#1932SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Evidicus
I feel your pain. In my guild, Warlocks are pretty much treated as an afterthought. Mages get both a shadow priest and an elemental shaman most nights, while our Affliction lock gets put into the tank group and Destro locks such as myself go into dreaded Group 3, or as I like to call it, "The Island of Misfit DPS".

Part of the problem is that our Officer core is pretty short-sighted when it comes to Destruction specs. The guild has been around since pre-BC when locks were all Affliction and all completely self-sufficient. The concept of a warlock needing some sort of mana return is alien to them.

The other part of the problem is that our mages and elemental shaman are squeaky wheels. If they don't all get their perfectly stacked group, they start calling out for innervates. (This floored me the first time I heard it. I played pre-BC with another guild, and if a mage ever had the nerve to call out for an innervate there, he'd have had a boot put up his ass so far, he'd have tasted leather for a month.) Sure enough though, if they squeak enough, they get the grease - even if that pulls a shadow priest from the healing group. It's pretty sad. I think the real kicker is that even without any sort of group synergy I can still consistently out DPS all but one of our mages.

That's the real reason I think Blizzard reversed the change to lifetap. If they nerfed it, then the mage argument of needing mana return more than us would go out the window. If group assignments were based purely on DPS alone then it would be no contest, at least in my guild.

I guess what I am trying to say is that, as sad a state as you are in, you are not alone. Some of the more educated and less closed-minded guilds out there realize our full potential and at the very least split up their boomkin/elemental shaman/shadow priests between mages and locks so we can all get some sort of benefit. For those of us stuck in less than optimal conditions, we just have to try to be as self-sufficient as we possibly can. I have a potion spec'd alt who makes all the mana pots I chain-chug on bosses, and I'll probably drop enchanting for alchemy on this toon in 2.4 just for the caster DPS alchemist stone for the +40% potion effect. Now that the stone has been changed to +dmg instead of +hit, it's become a little more viable for me at least.
#1933SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morwen
There's a thread about caster group-stacking with some numbers
Best use of caster-buffing classes

So you might be able to make an argument that stacking the warlock group would net you x more raid dps than stacking some other group and this would give your raid a better chance to beat some soft/hard enrage.

In general, final damage out should not be your personal performance metric, because it has so many factors that are beyond your control. I know my dps varies over 30% on the same fights week to week just from group composition and crit randomness. While it's satisfying to get in the perfect group and destroy meters, the statistic I actually find useful is percent time spent casting over the encounter length. That is something you can control and it is really the only metric that makes sense for 21/40 warlocks. I'd worry less about the final output when it's not preventing you from killing bosses.
#1934SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dakalro
Initially our warlocks didn't always have shaman and spriest, actually 2-3 mages went in and maybe, maybe a warlock.
But we still did decently and once we got better attendance with 2nd spriest and a 2nd resto shaman we got them and started showing what we can do when supported.

Of course, our healers actually use pots and except for mother, RoS and gurtogg they don't take the spriests (though atm spriests get the innervates and people don't use as many pots).

In the end, yes, I have to ... idle sometimes due to threat but it's only for 2-3 seconds when I'm full mana and I can still pull 2k+ dps on plenty of fights even with idling and abysmal luck on crit (10% lower) and normal raid setup.

Oh, and ditch the affli lock to destro until next patch imo . your tank doesn't need imp either at this point, or shadow embrace.
#1935SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by anton
warlocks have seemed to viewed as the black sheep of the guild the past month. I won't get into details, but mainly, every other class is represented at the officer chat level and generally people get what they want in their group. The guild leader is a fury warrior and the 3 officers are a holy priest (she's also the raid leader), mage, and hunter.
As destro, I haven't been outdps'd by a mage for as long as I can remember. Sure, in specific fights, or when I screwed up and died. But in general? no. It's not because I'm a superior player and our mages are incompetent. Destro simply scales better than any other caster class and spec, by a large margin.

A shaman is the very least they can do for you. Wrath of Air and Bloodlust are great buffs, and the totem of wrath is a nice bonus. I wouldn't try hogging the shadow priest, since we do have life tap. It's a dps increase, but other classes do benefit more from them.

If I were you, I'd demand a trial run where a destro lock also gets all the goodies, including SP and Shaman. Then have a look at the meters.
#1936SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Kyth
Originally Posted by anton View Post
It's just that every other WWS parse I've looked, the warlocks seemed to be treated like kings. They get a shaman, maybe 2 (or at least 2 bloodlusts), spriest, a leather worker or 2 (for drums, but I won't be picky, just making a point). And we don't do horrible either, damage wise, there's always a lock in the top 5 for all the bosses, maybe 2 (or more) depending on the fight.
Keep in mind there's a good chance the warlocks *are* the leatherworkers, so they aren't being "given" LW's.

Two bloodlusts on a lock group, honestly, sounds rare. Most raids that stack BL's do it on the melee group.


That all said, it's an uphill battle. Many people have "mage" associated in their mind with "the class you buff and give everything to" regardless of what meters say (or specific people's skill in a given guild.)

The best tack I know of is to stop treating it as a class thing and to instead talk about "can we make a caster dps group with the top dps'ers regardless of class" and go with a mix of mages/locks in there depending on skill.



Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
As destro, I haven't been outdps'd by a mage for as long as I can remember. Sure, in specific fights, or when I screwed up and died. But in general? no. It's not because I'm a superior player and our mages are incompetent. Destro simply scales better than any other caster class and spec, by a large margin.
On paper mages and locks are very close (within 5%; who is the top side of that 5% depends on whether the lock has a spriest) in equivalent T6 gear. Yes, you should be beating them by a bit, but if you're outdpsing your mages by a large margin then they're probably underperforming.



Originally Posted by Morwen View Post
While it's satisfying to get in the perfect group and destroy meters, the statistic I actually find useful is percent time spent casting over the encounter length. That is something you can control and it is really the only metric that makes sense for 21/40 warlocks. I'd worry less about the final output when it's not preventing you from killing bosses.
I'm pretty sure WWS uses a "5 second rule" to determine combat actions and I *think* it doesn't include lifetap as a combat action, so tap x 2 + SB = "non-dps time". (I could be wrong, just going off what I remember when I looked into this a while ago.)

Last edited by Kyth : 03/17/08 at 5:09 AM.
#1937SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Kyth View Post
On paper mages and locks are very close (within 5%; who is the top side of that 5% depends on whether the lock has a spriest) in equivalent T6 gear. Yes, you should be beating them by a bit, but if you're outdpsing your mages by a large margin then they're probably underperforming.
This is completely different from my experience. Interesting. Our mages are decked out in 5p T6 and come nowhere close to my dps, despite me not having 4p T6. I'll look into this.
#1938SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dakalro
Given same group buffs (spriest + resto shaman for my guild) they can be very close when they do try and even beat you if they get luckier (crit rates are a pain sometimes). And yes, making a dps group of your best casters sound like the best idea but of course your current leadership will say the mages are the best if you never get into a decent group. Just make your best mage stay out of spriest/shaman group and your best lock into one of those, for a couple of resets. And pray your best lock is good enough.
#1939SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
dakalro
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
This is completely different from my experience. Interesting. Our mages are decked out in 5p T6 and come nowhere close to my dps, despite me not having 4p T6. I'll look into this.
Erm, I just saw one of those 5t6 mages, he was 50/0/11. I'd expect those to be competing more with the spriests on meters rather than any lock

To make it a bit clear, one of our mages tried that (didn't have 2t5) and he got the result I wrote above. He was also getting nice results as fire, being overall out best dps mage. Without 2t5 afaik AB isn't even higher dps compared to fireball/scorch cycle, just wastes more mana. And there's no molten fury to stack with heroism on the last % of a fight.

Just poke em and tell them they're pretty much wasting that spriest they're getting if they're arcane without 2t5 and proper gearing up, and they still won't stand a chance until next patch changes to regen I guess.

Last edited by dakalro : 03/17/08 at 8:22 AM.
#1940SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Fafhrd
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
This is completely different from my experience. Interesting. Our mages are decked out in 5p T6 and come nowhere close to my dps, despite me not having 4p T6. I'll look into this.
In my experience, mages and warlocks in "perfect" gear, with same support and with good players, are remarkably well balanced dps-wise. There aren't many encounters where you can directly compare them though; Rage Winterchill, Anetheron, Kaz'rogal, Naj'entus (disregarding dps loss due to ice tomb/sleep/spine etc). Of course, that is if the warlock don't get to use a damage curse, then he'll usually win. Although it's mostly up to who is lucky with crits.
#1941SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kremlan
Sorry if this already has been discussed and I missed it, but is spell haste any good in small amounts or do you need to stack it before you notice the benefits from it? I'm asking because of the new Sunwell gems, socketing all yellow sockets with spell haste or dmg/spell haste gems seems to the best +dmg increase in theory. But will it be worth it for me, who right now has 0 spellhaste, or should I wait until i get some from the Sunwell gear before I socket spellhaste?
#1942SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Cronjob
Originally Posted by Evidicus View Post
alchemy on this toon in 2.4 just for the caster DPS alchemist stone for the +40% potion effect. Now that the stone has been changed to +dmg instead of +hit, it's become a little more viable for me at least.

Has anyone run the numbers on this to see where it stacks up trinket wise compared to other trinkets out there.
#1943SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Evidicus View Post
I feel your pain. In my guild, Warlocks are pretty much treated as an afterthought. Mages get both a shadow priest and an elemental shaman most nights, while our Affliction lock gets put into the tank group and Destro locks such as myself go into dreaded Group 3, or as I like to call it, "The Island of Misfit DPS".

Part of the problem is that our Officer core is pretty short-sighted when it comes to Destruction specs. The guild has been around since pre-BC when locks were all Affliction and all completely self-sufficient. The concept of a warlock needing some sort of mana return is alien to them.

The other part of the problem is that our mages and elemental shaman are squeaky wheels. If they don't all get their perfectly stacked group, they start calling out for innervates. (This floored me the first time I heard it. I played pre-BC with another guild, and if a mage ever had the nerve to call out for an innervate there, he'd have had a boot put up his ass so far, he'd have tasted leather for a month.) Sure enough though, if they squeak enough, they get the grease - even if that pulls a shadow priest from the healing group. It's pretty sad. I think the real kicker is that even without any sort of group synergy I can still consistently out DPS all but one of our mages.

That's the real reason I think Blizzard reversed the change to lifetap. If they nerfed it, then the mage argument of needing mana return more than us would go out the window. If group assignments were based purely on DPS alone then it would be no contest, at least in my guild.

I guess what I am trying to say is that, as sad a state as you are in, you are not alone. Some of the more educated and less closed-minded guilds out there realize our full potential and at the very least split up their boomkin/elemental shaman/shadow priests between mages and locks so we can all get some sort of benefit. For those of us stuck in less than optimal conditions, we just have to try to be as self-sufficient as we possibly can. I have a potion spec'd alt who makes all the mana pots I chain-chug on bosses, and I'll probably drop enchanting for alchemy on this toon in 2.4 just for the caster DPS alchemist stone for the +40% potion effect. Now that the stone has been changed to +dmg instead of +hit, it's become a little more viable for me at least.

You can sort of see this effect even in the theorycrafting here on these forums. I'm not the first person to notice this, but joe schmo mage sometimes insists on a flamecap/destropot rotation and refuses to invis/evocate, because it cuts into dps uptime, while locks are expected to Soulstone (at least on Teron)/Lifetap, which also cuts into dps uptime.
#1944SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 Roped
I made it a personal crusade to see Warlocks become the "DPS" casters in the raids ever since the insult that was Naxx put us into that Imp/Curse bitch position.

The best way I found of doing this was consistently dominating every other DPS class in raids, regardless of what group I was in or what buffs I was receiving. As I began to beat every DPS nearly every fight, without buffs, while they were getting fed Heroism and Shadow Priests, it became apparent that Warlocks brought serious DPS to the table that couldn't be overlooked.

We went from running 1-2 Warlocks a raid, in the MT group with an Imp without Heroisms, drums, or Shadow Priests to running 3 Warlocks in a raid all in the Elemental Shaman/Shadow Priest group. Needless to say, the Mages are pretty emo about it.
#1945SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Spoonman
Originally Posted by Kyth View Post
That all said, it's an uphill battle. Many people have "mage" associated in their mind with "the class you buff and give everything to" regardless of what meters say (or specific people's skill in a given guild.)
I think it's also a case of people assuming that mages "need" an SP more than warlocks, when really, given the length of most boss fights, neither requires one, they simply gain DPS. Realistically, all warlocks and mages in a given raid should have a shadow priest, if your (and by "your" I mean anton) guild is remotely serious about getting the most DPS out of a raid. People seem to think that warlocks don't have mana issues because of life tap - I spend my entire mana pool plus a pot in a little over a minute and from then on my DPS drops substantially as I have to tap every few casts. Life tap only really shines when you have a very long fight like council, where classes without it can potentially go oom after using all their regen abilities/cooldowns, and then do nothing. if you don't have enough SPs for all the casters to have one, there's not really any reason to put the mages with one but not the locks. Everyone assumes that warlocks can just lifetap with no DPS loss, how often do your mages evocate during bosses?
#1946SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morwen
Originally Posted by Kyth View Post
I'm pretty sure WWS uses a "5 second rule" to determine combat actions and I *think* it doesn't include lifetap as a combat action, so tap x 2 + SB = "non-dps time". (I could be wrong, just going off what I remember when I looked into this a while ago.)
That sounds right. Personally I use ((# of shadowbolts cast * 2.5) + (# of lifetaps cast * 1.5)) / Encounter Length instead of WWS dps time, and adjust for haste effects and movement/incapacitates as applicable.
#1947SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3LockApologist
Has anyone considered (or knows of an existing) ISB uptime parser for WWS reports? Basically, a script you could point at a WWS to parse out the SB crit events and determine the actual (rather than TC'd) uptime?
#1948SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by LockApologist View Post
Has anyone considered (or knows of an existing) ISB uptime parser for WWS reports? Basically, a script you could point at a WWS to parse out the SB crit events and determine the actual (rather than TC'd) uptime?
Currently impossible. Dynamic debuffs will kill any such attempt.

In theory, if you know about all debuffs and they're static (say, on Theron, where debuffs will never fall off), you could try to make educated guesses about people's spellpower and talents, and from there determining how much of their damage was boosted. They'd still be guesses, though.

With 2.4. WWS will be changed and it might be possible. I haven't looked into it.
#1949SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
The solution is to not have a female raid leader...

On a more serious note, the whole fact you have a "leftover" group like most raid groups do means you will always have people in that group and never actually reach a point where your raid is optimal. Then it's all about deciding who gets leftover treatment. Since elemental shamans and mages (and moonkins if you actually run with them) can't run without a shadow priest, and putting any kind of shaman with the shadow priest is a good idea, the natural choice is to put all the mages with a shadow priest and a shaman (elemental if you have, resto otherwise). First shaman in the raid always goes in the melee group regardless of spec (but enhancement is priority of course), windfury is just too important for them. Tank group will optimally have improved devo aura, tree aura and an imp - buffing the tank with those buffs generally helps the raid a lot more than synergiesing that pally druid and affliction warlock.

The people that the raid leaders actually have a choice about are the healers, warlocks and hunters. Since healers don't seem really *need* a shadow priest for any (or at least almost any) fight in 25-man that is done with a reasonable gear level (as in, a good mix of t5/badge/kara gear at minimum) if they use consumeables, while DPS can always increase their DPS with more support no matter how many consumeables they use, it's generally better to buff DPS than buffing healers. If you have 3 shadow priests and 4-5 shamans in your raid (which is actually a good thing, expection being that I'm not sure about shadow priests being worth it at extreme high end gear considering the shorter fights and lower scaling, but it's generally safer to assume you need them as the extra heals from VE and extra heals from more healer mana, even if not needed, does help), you can just buff everyone. If you have less, it's generally better to buff dps over the healers. At least with a shaman, as the mana totems are nothing compared to his DPS totems in terms of raid benefit, and the DPS totems are quite wasted on healers (even wrath of air is just 100 healing which in terms of relative increases is not much compared to WoA for casters or GoA for hunters).

If all fails, show your raid leaders the spreadsheet and show them the numerical/relative DPS increase you're going to see if you were given a shaman and a shadow priest. Once you put in your base+consumeabled stats, adding mp5 for a shaman+sp and some totems and seeing the dps increase resulting is quite easy. Even seeing raid DPS increase due to added improved shadowbolt is possible to take into consideration (although a little harder as your ISB contribution is only integrated into your own DPS via the "TNS" (to next stat) part and not the actual dps it shows when you increase/reduce crit - but you can still see the change in ISB uptime and make your conclusions).
#1950SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arnath
My lock has been Tailoring/Herbalism since early TBC when I realized the Tailoring items were totally worth skilling it up. Since it seems that Tailoring will continue to be useful through Sunwell/WotLK, I'm clearly going to keep that. However, I was considering dropping Herbalism for either Jewelcrafting or Enchanting. JCing would give me a [Loop of Forged Power] which is the best ring in 2.4 as far as I can tell as well as some unique gems that would be (very) slight upgrades in certain slots. Enchanting on the other hand would be just 24 spell damage from the ring enchants. Anyone have any thoughts on the matter?
#1951SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Fizwidget
Loop is BoE, the JC neck is BoP. If you can get enough sunmotes, you can get the ring without having to spec JC.

Engineering for the helm, or enchanting for 24 dmg is the best bang for your tradeskill-slot buck. (after tailoring, of course)

[Annihilator Holo-Gogs]

I'm partial to engineering, its cheap and you get to wear goggles. On the other hand, if you can D/E, you never have to worry about finding a D/E'r for your 5-mans.

EDIT:Fixed iLink

Last edited by Fizwidget : 03/17/08 at 1:54 PM.
#1952SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Spoonman
Leatherworking is better, no? [Drums of Battle] is an effective 20 personal haste, but also 20 haste for the other four members of your group. [Sunfire Robe] has 14 crit and 13 haste over the [Robes of Ghostly Hatred], drums are a clear winner (assuming you are in a group with at least one other dps).
#1953SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vlar
Originally Posted by Fizwidget View Post
Loop is BoE, the JC neck is BoP. If you can get enough sunmotes, you can get the ring without having to spec JC.

Engineering for the helm, or enchanting for 24 dmg is the best bang for your tradeskill-slot buck. (after tailoring, of course)

[Annihilator Holo-Gogs]

I'm partial to engineering, its cheap and you get to wear goggles. On the other hand, if you can D/E, you never have to worry about finding a D/E'r for your 5-mans.

EDIT:Fixed iLink
Another couple benefits over engineering:

You do not use any equipment slots for the 24 damage basicallly making it "free"

Also, while you may upgrade the helm before the expac (not an engineer, so I do not know how powerful the helms are), you won't upgrade the ring enchants as you will be able to toss it on any upgrade you get.

Thirdly, it is REALLY nice being able to enchant your own stuff, God knows how often I have gotten annoyed that I could put the Mongoose or Executioner enchant on someone, but I have to bother someone else to get it for my warrior.
#1954SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Zaq
So I was curious what other people were planning with regards to keeping their 4T6 bonuses. I'd assume that everyone is taking the [Boots of the Malefic] and[Bracers of the Malefic] and nearly everyone is taking the [Belt of the Malefic] as well. Obviously your profession choices may dictate these somewhat, but I thought it might be interesting to see what old t6 item people considered most viable.

What then, are people considering for the following tradeoffs:

Gloves:
[Gloves of the Malefic]][Sunfire Handwraps]
Chest
[Robe of the Malefic][Robes of Ghostly Hatred][Sunfire Robe]
Shoulders:
[Mantle of the Malefic][Amice of the Convoker]
Legs:
[Leggings of the Malefic][Leggings of Calamity][Pantaloons of Growing Strife]
Helm:
[Hood of the Malefic][Cowl of the Illidari High Lord][Annihilator Holo-Gogs]

Last edited by Zaq : 03/17/08 at 2:55 PM. Reason: Formatting never hurts
#1955SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
So I was curious what other people were planning with regards to keeping their 4T6 bonuses. I'd assume that everyone is taking the [Boots of the Malefic] and[Bracers of the Malefic] and nearly everyone is taking the [Belt of the Malefic] as well. Obviously your profession choices may dictate these somewhat, but I thought it might be interesting to see what old t6 item people considered most viable.

What then, are people considering for the following tradeoffs:

Gloves:
[Gloves of the Malefic]][Sunfire Handwraps]
Chest
[Robe of the Malefic][Robes of Ghostly Hatred][Sunfire Robe]
Shoulders:
[Mantle of the Malefic][Amice of the Convoker]
Legs:
[Leggings of the Malefic][Leggings of Calamity][Pantaloons of Growing Strife]
Helm:
[Hood of the Malefic][Cowl of the Illidari High Lord][Annihilator Holo-Gogs]
The spreadsheet is your friend? But the Helm is the clear answer.
#1956SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rochan
So far, it seems like it would be "optimal" to change Enchanting to Leatherworking after you get both Mana Attuned Band & Loop of Forged Power. Unless there is an uber ring from Kil Jaeden, there is nothing better than these 2 rings. The other profession of course being Tailoring for the chest.
#1957SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dakalro
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
The spreadsheet is your friend? But the Helm is the clear answer.
Try Illidan head + t6 shoulders ( + all else you can get from Sunwell) vs t6 head + Amice. And there's also some ilvl 164 head dropping in Sunwell if I'm not mistaken (hopefully I'm not).
Most of the bonus comes from needing to fill 2 blue gems which you can get socket bonuses for in Illidan head and t6 shoulders.
#1958SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bandoer
The Tailoring Robe can drop on the way to Kalecgos, so that raises the value of tailoring since most of us would be upgrading T6 chest to Sunfire Robe. Regarding optimizing professions for progression, it's somewhat off to be considering a M'uru or Kil'Jaeden drop. JC is a similar scenario if you don't have Translucent Spellthread Necklace, as the next good neck drops of Eredar Twins, which may be a rare drop.

Kil'Jaeden loot is pretty much inconsequential because at that point you've beat the game and any further BC gear is just for dressing up.
#1959SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Zaq
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
The spreadsheet is your friend? But the Helm is the clear answer.
Right, I'm fully capable of running the spreadsheet for my stuff, but which old t6 to keep is probably the most compelling gearing choice for SP. Dakarlo also already made a suggestion somewhat different from yours, so I don't see it as a wasted discussion.
#1960SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3weet
Well for professions, tailoring will give you the biggest item upgrade early. But from a guild perspective, my guild has over 8 dps casters who are all tailors. Whereas the JC neck probably no-one can actually use at the moment, and it gives roughly half the dps upgrade that the robe does. Yet later on the robes off of M'uru will be the equivalent to sunfire (he drops same ilvl robes - not referring to the healer hand-in version seen on vendor) and the neck off of Twins is still worse than the JC one + has hit (a disadvantage for overall gearing options).

So if you are looking at ranking them with rough numbers it would go:

Pre-Muru/Twins loot options
- Leatherworking (75)
- Tailoring (50ish)
- Jewelcrafting/Enchanting (both around 25)

Then with all loot
- Leatherworking (75)
- Enchanting (25)
- Jewelcrafting (15)
- Tailoring (0-? - depends on stats of drop robe)

I am very loathe to drop enchanting for WOTLK, + the fact that there has been a boss drop healer and physical dps ring, means there should be a caster one somewhere.

So optimally one would have either tailoring or jc + enchanting then drop enchanting for LW, but really as long as you have two professions which actually contribute it is not horrible.

As it stands currently with the t6 pieces, the helm + offset shoulders is superior because illidan helm + t6 shoulders has way too much hit assuming you have the best items pre-sunwell. But then again KJ should drop a higher ilvl helm with no hit.

It is debatable whether it is 'useless' to talk about KJ item drops because, unless sunwell takes under 3 months to clear you should not expect to have all of the 3 new pieces assuming even distribution among your fellow raiders, let alone the offset pieces. All this talk about ideal pre-kj items don't really come into play until you will have the zone on farm anyway, so considering ideal gear up to a certain point is somewhat of a stupid idea, just take whatever drops that is an upgrade and once everything is on farm it is the time to work out an ideal set. Personally I already have the illidan helm so from a guild perspective it is better for me to use that + t6 shoulders until KJ helm, while letting others pick up the shoulders off of twins.
#1961SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Suggestive
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
The spreadsheet is your friend? But the Helm is the clear answer.
I've found the shoulders + illidari helm to be a better combination than using the malefic helm. I'm guessing this is because i assume i'm running without a elemental shaman, and the hit on that combo was something in the region of 30 more. Either way its a 1 DPS difference, and the optimal setup depends on your raid/group. Combined with the fact that we still haven't seen everything that drops in the sunwell, i wouldn't make any absolute statements on the best gear combination.
What chest drops off Muru?
#1962SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Proffessions seem to be all about speculating what blizzard will bring next. I mean for now leatherworking is just extremely powerful I doubt any proffession can beat it, however it's not safe to speculate that it'll stay like that in the long run (WotLK and beyond). You can almost safely assume blizzard will always give tailoring and jewelcrafting something nice for casters, and to a lesser degree engineering (I was actually disappointed although the epic goggles are kind of a rescue but far from enough - but you can never know). Leatherworking may or may not have something equivalent to drums - you can only feel safe to assume that it'll always have stuff for leather wearers but gambling WotLK will bring something equivalent to drums is just that - a gamble.

Bottom line is in the long run proffessions are a guessing game, and in that game I would play guessing tailoring/jewelcrafting or tailoring/enchanting. For right now leatherworking seem to be pretty hard to beat (I hadn't run the numbers but 80 haste rating for 4-5 people with 25% uptime (effectively 80-100 haste rating), even if it costs a global cooldown, is just a lot).
#1963SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by dakalro View Post
Try Illidan head + t6 shoulders ( + all else you can get from Sunwell) vs t6 head + Amice. And there's also some ilvl 164 head dropping in Sunwell if I'm not mistaken (hopefully I'm not).
Most of the bonus comes from needing to fill 2 blue gems which you can get socket bonuses for in Illidan head and t6 shoulders.
There is, but it had loads of spirit. [Helm of Arcane Purity]

Cowl + t6 shoulders nets you:
78 stam
53 int
42 hit
60 crit
110 damage
1 red 1 yellow 1 blue skt

Convoker + t6 helm nets you:
91 stam
64 int
16 hit
54 crit
30 haste
116 damage
1 red 2 yellow skt

Given that 1 haste can be traded for 1 hit through gemming, the t6 helm combination has more dps stats, as well as more stam/int.

The fact that there's a blue socket is moot. You're going to use either [Forceful Seaspray Emerald] or [Glowing Shadowsong Amethyst] to fulfill your meta requirements, and you can throw those in yellow/red sockets. All the t6 shoulder combo does is force you to use your 2 blues in those 2 items; with all red and yellow sockets, you can put them anywhere.

I do apologize, though, its close than I thought it would be, and I was unnecessarily snide.
#1964SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3weet
In all likelyhood KJ will drop a 'proper' caster dps helm, just as m'uru will drop robes which are not the ones with spirit.

The only reason we know of the healer helm off of KJ is because it is able to be turned into the vendor for the 'healer dps' version, so it shows up on the vendor. Just like when the PTR first came out, people were speculating that the only shoulders were the hand-in ones as well as the legs before brut and twins were killed and they dropped Leggings of Calamity/Amice of the Convoker.

Quoting my old post!

Originally Posted by weet View Post
Well given that Leggings of Calamity showed up off of a boss (and were not previously found) and there are already 'token legs' with similar stats + spirit, it is quite likely that there is more non-set cloth drops which are not linked to the token vendor which have not been seen yet. So I would not simply judge all the gear as what our class was given yet.

Perhaps the token hand-in versions that have been seen are all somewhat of a 'refund' version that you can get if the healing one drops yet is not really useful for your raid, yet are not the best-in-game version for a dps caster. Also good as levelling gear when the expansion hits, as a healer can simply hand in all their healing gear for superior dps versions.
#1965SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3anton
I thank you all for your replies about raid grouping. I will look over it and consider a course of action.

As to the one troll that reposted my exact post on my guild's forums, I hope you forever burn in a sea of warlock Hell fire. That was completely not needed.
#1966SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lord Pendragon
A quick question for the masters,

My affliction lock's current routine is to apply Unstable Affliction, Curse of Agony, Corruption, Drain Life, and Immolate, then begin spamming shadow bolts until the DoTs need to be reapplied.

However, I've noticed my dps lagging in relation to a couple of demonology/destro locks I often raid with on this character. My gear (The World of Warcraft Armory) is on-par with theirs, so I'm wondering if perhaps my spell routine is sub-optimal.

Thoughts?
#1967SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Zephro
Originally Posted by Lord Pendragon View Post
A quick question for the masters,

My affliction lock's current routine is to apply Unstable Affliction, Curse of Agony, Corruption, Drain Life, and Immolate, then begin spamming shadow bolts until the DoTs need to be reapplied.

However, I've noticed my dps lagging in relation to a couple of demonology/destro locks I often raid with on this character. My gear (The World of Warcraft Armory) is on-par with theirs, so I'm wondering if perhaps my spell routine is sub-optimal.

Thoughts?
There is no spell rotation as such for affliction warlocks, because your dots' durations are too varied. Just try to avoid having more than one dot running out at a time.

Anyway, the reason you're falling behind is that Affliction scales horribly with gear due to its overwhelming focus on just one damage stat (spellpower). Destro and demonology benefit greatly from crit and haste, neither of which do much for you. It doesn't matter how well you play, a destro-spec warlock is always going to do more damage simply because he gets more out of his gear upgrades. If you want to be competitive on damage meters, you'll have to respec (although Affliction can be useful as a raid-support spec if you take 5/5 shadow embrace and 3/3 malediction).
#1968SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Carra
Originally Posted by Lord Pendragon View Post
A quick question for the masters,

My affliction lock's current routine is to apply Unstable Affliction, Curse of Agony, Corruption, Drain Life, and Immolate, then begin spamming shadow bolts until the DoTs need to be reapplied.

However, I've noticed my dps lagging in relation to a couple of demonology/destro locks I often raid with on this character. My gear (The World of Warcraft Armory) is on-par with theirs, so I'm wondering if perhaps my spell routine is sub-optimal.

Thoughts?
As has been said, at a cerain level destruction begins to outscale affliction by a large margin. I respecced to destruction last week and saw my dps increase from around 700 a 800 to 1000 a 1100 dps using the same gear.

One advice would be to cast corruption after UA. They both have the same cooldown making them easier to cast together. And if two targets are tanked, put dots on the second one too. Your dots will do more damage then using shadowbolts.
#1969SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dakalro
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
There is, but it had loads of spirit. [Helm of Arcane Purity]

Cowl + t6 shoulders nets you:
78 stam
53 int
42 hit
60 crit
110 damage
1 red 1 yellow 1 blue skt

Convoker + t6 helm nets you:
91 stam
64 int
16 hit
54 crit
30 haste
116 damage
1 red 2 yellow skt

Given that 1 haste can be traded for 1 hit through gemming, the t6 helm combination has more dps stats, as well as more stam/int.

The fact that there's a blue socket is moot. You're going to use either [Forceful Seaspray Emerald] or [Glowing Shadowsong Amethyst] to fulfill your meta requirements, and you can throw those in yellow/red sockets. All the t6 shoulder combo does is force you to use your 2 blues in those 2 items; with all red and yellow sockets, you can put them anywhere.

I do apologize, though, its close than I thought it would be, and I was unnecessarily snide.
Considering that so far every boss dropped 1 extra item over set tokens and will maybe drop a max of 2 randomly, that spriests want amice and afaik spirit leggings are better for them I think I'll try to ninja Illidan helm (wonder how many went for offspec so far ) and dump all my dkp in the first part of the instance on leggings, tailoring chest and T6 since the 2nd half only gives a minor neck upgrade, a hat, the dagger and maybe a trinket(?!) and cloak(?!). With a 164 head it should be a better combo just hoping it won't undo a lot of stuff where hit is concerned.

On another hand I totally forgot about the useless gems becoming sort of semi not so useless. I'll have to redo sheet once I get home but afaik the difference was minor with my weirdo gemming amethysts in T6 (oops) with T6 helm + Amice.
#1970SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by weet View Post
In all likelyhood KJ will drop a 'proper' caster dps helm, just as m'uru will drop robes which are not the ones with spirit.

The only reason we know of the healer helm off of KJ is because it is able to be turned into the vendor for the 'healer dps' version, so it shows up on the vendor. Just like when the PTR first came out, people were speculating that the only shoulders were the hand-in ones as well as the legs before brut and twins were killed and they dropped Leggings of Calamity/Amice of the Convoker.

Quoting my old post!
Quite possibly. Given the similarity betweeen [Chain Links of the Tumultuous Storm] and [Leggings of Calamity], I suppose we can expect something close to [Cowl of Gul'dan] and [Garments of Crashing Shores] if something exists at all.

Keep in mind though that Elemental Shamans don't have a BoP crafted chestpiece.
#1971SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
galzohar
A WWS is more useful than an armory link, as an armory link will not show how much you're messing up your DoT refreshing and how much time you waste simply doing nothing. There have already been countless people saying their DPS doesn't match up, and the answer had always been that first they should actually try harder to dps, as they can do a lot more with that same gear if they just attack more (you'd think that's obviuos... but that's actually the #1 reason people have low dps), and 2nd (less important) is that they can fix a lot of things in their gear and spec quite easily.

You're affliction, you should never cast curse of agony on the main target in raids. And if you're off-dotting most likely some shadow priests are as well so you shouldn't CoA the off-target either. CoS (with malediction) on anything that has shadow casters attacking it - let the other warlocks cover curse of elements and curse of recklessness (which means if you have 3 or less warlocks NO warlock should be using a damage curse anyway). The DPS increase of malediction is better than any dps increase you could possibly get by using a DPS curse over another warlock who puts up CoS for you.

You are definitely not anywhere near the gear level where destruction outDPSs affliction. You are, however, most likely at the skill level where the ease of playing destruction outDPSs affliction. It doesn't mean you should be destruction unless you completely give up on learning to play...

You can easily upgrade your spell damage massively by getting frozen shadoweave and spellstrike and gem with 9 damage gems exclusively (your wand too!). Get S3 mage bracers. Replace the horseman's ring with the one from cenarion expedition exalted. Get the badge reward gloves. While you should use spellstrike, if you do use a meta gem use the 1/2 cast meta for affliction (which can be activated if you just socket everything with red except 1 purple gem). Farm a darkmoon card crusade and ditch that quag's eye.

Your spec fails by not providing the raid with shadow embrace, no imporved lifetap, no malediction, no +5% crit on shadowbolts and no +range -threat on shadowbolts. You don't need the lifedrain and curse of agony talents and you really don't need demonic embrace and really really don't need fel intelect. Consider Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft with the last point going in either CoEx, improved imp or intensity, all nice to have but not at all nescessary. Since hit caps at 16%, you can drop a point from suppression for every wated 2% hit (aka 1 point if you have 18% hit (8% from gear), 2 points if you have 20% (10% from gear) etc) - although there isn't really anywhere useful to put those points so that change won't increase your dps, however it is definitely better than having >=18% +hit as anything above 16% doesn't do anything.

Remember damage>=hit>haste>crit for affliction, with damage and hit being far above the other 2. For exact values consult with the spreadsheet.

Last edited by galzohar : 03/20/08 at 4:12 PM.
#1972SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jaeydn
Originally Posted by weet View Post
Well for professions, tailoring will give you the biggest item upgrade early. But from a guild perspective, my guild has over 8 dps casters who are all tailors. Whereas the JC neck probably no-one can actually use at the moment, and it gives roughly half the dps upgrade that the robe does. Yet later on the robes off of M'uru will be the equivalent to sunfire (he drops same ilvl robes - not referring to the healer hand-in version seen on vendor) and the neck off of Twins is still worse than the JC one + has hit (a disadvantage for overall gearing options).

So if you are looking at ranking them with rough numbers it would go:

Pre-Muru/Twins loot options
- Leatherworking (75)
- Tailoring (50ish)
- Jewelcrafting/Enchanting (both around 25)

Then with all loot
- Leatherworking (75)
- Enchanting (25)
- Jewelcrafting (15)
- Tailoring (0-? - depends on stats of drop robe)

I am very loathe to drop enchanting for WOTLK, + the fact that there has been a boss drop healer and physical dps ring, means there should be a caster one somewhere.

So optimally one would have either tailoring or jc + enchanting then drop enchanting for LW, but really as long as you have two professions which actually contribute it is not horrible.

As it stands currently with the t6 pieces, the helm + offset shoulders is superior because illidan helm + t6 shoulders has way too much hit assuming you have the best items pre-sunwell. But then again KJ should drop a higher ilvl helm with no hit.

It is debatable whether it is 'useless' to talk about KJ item drops because, unless sunwell takes under 3 months to clear you should not expect to have all of the 3 new pieces assuming even distribution among your fellow raiders, let alone the offset pieces. All this talk about ideal pre-kj items don't really come into play until you will have the zone on farm anyway, so considering ideal gear up to a certain point is somewhat of a stupid idea, just take whatever drops that is an upgrade and once everything is on farm it is the time to work out an ideal set. Personally I already have the illidan helm so from a guild perspective it is better for me to use that + t6 shoulders until KJ helm, while letting others pick up the shoulders off of twins.

On talk of professions I've not noticed anything definitive on the new Sorc Stone since it was changed from hit to damage. Any thoughts on how good it would be to take alchemy now over tailoring?
#1973SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Eph
When comparing best in slot items wouldn't the Alch trinket have to be better than the Skull of Gul'dan assuming M'uru or KJ drop a nice caster trinket? So essentially it would be 8dmg and 40mp5 vs 25hit and 29 haste.

Though this does bring it back to the argument that best in slot doesn't matter if you include items from a cleared SWP (much less since you wouldn't be chain potting as much.)

But lets just compare the second best trinket for now:

[Sorcerer's Alchemist Stone](40mp5) over [Hex Shrunken Head](25dmg) vs [Sunfire Robe](6dmg, 8haste, 14crit) over [Robes of Ghostly Hatred](3stm, 6int, 32spirit)

To find the exact dps differences we'll have to pull out the spreadsheet, but I'm going to guess that Tailoring is going to stay ahead.

Last edited by Eph : 03/18/08 at 12:54 PM.
#1974SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Lord Pendragon
Thanks very much for the advice guys, especially Galzohar. Really appreciate the time it took for that in-depth reply. Looks like I've got some work ahead of me, both in terms of gear and playstyle.

One last follow-up question. You've suggested getting Spellstrike and arena gloves. I take it then that the warlock T4 set bonuses don't impress you?

Last edited by Lord Pendragon : 03/18/08 at 1:01 PM.
#1975SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morwen
Originally Posted by Lord Pendragon View Post
One last follow-up question. You've suggested getting Spellstrike and arena gloves. I take it then that the warlock T4 set bonuses don't impress you?
The T4 bonuses are not bad, each of them is worth roughly 20-30 spell damage, but Frozen Shadoweave and Spellstrike individually beat the T4 pieces by such a margin that the bonuses don't make up for the difference, even more so after you factor in Spellstrike's own bonus proc. On the other hand you are not currently a tailor and you might not be in a guild that really values min-maxing, so you'll have to weigh the value of spending the several thousand gold to powerlevel tailoring and make those items for a noticeable but not deal-breaking dps increase. The gloves that were suggested are the badge gloves [Studious Wraps] rather than pvp ones, though the ones from Attumen/Magtheridon are fine alternatives if they happen to drop for you.
#1976SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Morwen View Post
On the other hand you are not currently a tailor and you might not be in a guild that really values min-maxing, so you'll have to weigh the value of spending the several thousand gold to powerlevel tailoring and make those items for a noticeable but not deal-breaking dps increase.
I doubt you'll need more than 1000g to level tailoring to 375 and get a full FSW kit. cloth tends to be cheapish, and at the high end there's plenty of tricks to reduce costs. 300->320 by making bolts, 325->340 by making imbued bolts, 345->355 by making bolts of soulcloth. The only expensive ones are the final ten points, and the primal fire & shadow for Shadoweave.
#1977SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Silverstorm
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
{Gear/playstyle snip}

Your spec fails by not providing the raid with shadow embrace, no imporved lifetap, no malediction, no +5% crit on shadowbolts and no +range -threat on shadowbolts. You don't need the lifedrain and curse of agony talents and you really don't need demonic embrace and really really don't need fel intelect. Consider Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft with the last point going in either CoEx, improved imp or intensity, all nice to have but not at all nescessary. Since hit caps at 16%, you can drop a point from suppression for every wated 2% hit (aka 1 point if you have 18% hit (8% from gear), 2 points if you have 20% (10% from gear) etc) - although there isn't really anywhere useful to put those points so that change won't increase your dps, however it is definitely better than having >=18% +hit as anything above 16% doesn't do anything.

Remember damage>=hit>haste>crit for affliction, with damage and hit being far above the other 2. For exact values consult with the spreadsheet.
I'll agree with the gear/playstyle/rotation comments and the majority of talent comments. There is a useful place for 2 of those points, and that's in Imp Drain Soul. More of your damage will come from affliction spells than shadowbolt, so the -10% threat there is valuable to some extent (depends on tank competence). Most likely that point in Amp Curse is useless, unless accompanied with CoEx (typically for Vashj strider kiting) or you actually get to CoA/CoD (not likely). The extra point could also go in shadowburn for lack of another place. It's saved me enough to warrant putting a point there. The single point in Imp Healthstone can also help with organizing all 3 healthstones in your raid, since a majority of builds seem to have 0 or 2 points there.

I would also posit hit > damage even for affliction. Nothing is worse to me than resisted dots that screw up the rotation. You lose the 1.5 seconds, then you lose Corruption uptime by waiting to resync with UA. I have not explicitly checked that with the spreadsheet (and it will overestimate DPS anyway).

Originally Posted by Arlenda
I doubt you'll need more than 1000g to level tailoring to 375 and get a full FSW kit. cloth tends to be cheapish, and at the high end there's plenty of tricks to reduce costs. 300->320 by making bolts, 325->340 by making imbued bolts, 345->355 by making bolts of soulcloth. The only expensive ones are the final ten points, and the primal fire & shadow for Shadoweave.
Dependent on server prices, obviously. On A-N, Water is 15g, Fire is 25g, Shadow is 15g. 13*(15+25) + 38*15 assuming zero farming and perfect use of SC transmutes is still 1090g on my server. Throw in 2-3g per stack of cloth, and the price of soul essence + arcane dust, unless you have these store en masse...pure purchasing could easily top 2000g.
#1978SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Elderx
With my gear and spec, is it better to use [Quagmirran's Eye] + [Icon of the Silver Crescent]
or [Icon of the Silver Crescent] + [Battlemaster's Audacity]
Armory link for gear The World of Warcraft Armory
#1979SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Silverstorm
Originally Posted by Elderx View Post
Use the spreadsheet; that's why it was created. It's linked in the first post.
#1980SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nicarras
Originally Posted by Elderx View Post
The quicker answer than what the person above me posted would be this.

Your spell damage and crit are incredibly low for you to be attempting Destro. I even question your dest spec due to all your points in Fire talents, and no Soul Leech. You need to switch back to Affliction until you can get more crit/dmg gear and while you are Aff, use the Battlemaster's trinket.

I know its not set it stone, but at least attempt to get to 1000 dmg and 20% crit, you are nowhere even in the ballpark.
#1981SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Deathwing
Originally Posted by Morwen View Post
The T4 bonuses are not bad, each of them is worth roughly 20-30 spell damage, but Frozen Shadoweave and Spellstrike individually beat the T4 pieces by such a margin that the bonuses don't make up for the difference, even more so after you factor in Spellstrike's own bonus proc. On the other hand you are not currently a tailor and you might not be in a guild that really values min-maxing, so you'll have to weigh the value of spending the several thousand gold to powerlevel tailoring and make those items for a noticeable but not deal-breaking dps increase. The gloves that were suggested are the badge gloves [Studious Wraps] rather than pvp ones, though the ones from Attumen/Magtheridon are fine alternatives if they happen to drop for you.
Actually, I think you'll find T4 is better in a few slots, specifically those not inhabited by spellstrike. For chest and shoulders, T4 is definitely better. Studious Wraps are better for gloves though.
#1982SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3LockApologist
Originally Posted by Nicarras View Post
The quicker answer than what the person above me posted would be this.

Your spell damage and crit are incredibly low for you to be attempting Destro. I even question your dest spec due to all your points in Fire talents, and no Soul Leech. You need to switch back to Affliction until you can get more crit/dmg gear and while you are Aff, use the Battlemaster's trinket.

I know its not set it stone, but at least attempt to get to 1000 dmg and 20% crit, you are nowhere even in the ballpark.
Have you looked at your WWS for how useful Soul leech actually is? I went back over several months of mine and could not find a report where it was not 75+% over heal. 90% of the time, I tap and get 2-3 heals before my next bolt lands.

The 5 points that you have in Nether prot/Soul leech are just filler. Almost nothing of consequence procs nether prot in PvE, and Soul leech is just a waste.

Having 5/5 Emberstorm allows you to swap to Incinerate without a huge DPS loss if a fight or raid make up favor it (fire mages + no spriest + only 1 lock, for example).
#1983SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nicarras
Originally Posted by LockApologist View Post
Have you looked at your WWS for how useful Soul leech actually is? I went back over several months of mine and could not find a report where it was not 75+% over heal. 90% of the time, I tap and get 2-3 heals before my next bolt lands.

The 5 points that you have in Nether prot/Soul leech are just filler. Almost nothing of consequence procs nether prot in PvE, and Soul leech is just a waste.

Having 5/5 Emberstorm allows you to swap to Incinerate without a huge DPS loss if a fight or raid make up favor it (fire mages + no spriest + only 1 lock, for example).
Fair enough I suppose. Granted I pretty much always raid with 3 locks 2 SPs and 2 mages. I toss an incin maybe on Mother but thats only when She's Fire Vuln. Otherwise you are never casting a fire spell ever. I have looked at WWS and 2/3 Soul Leech heals about as much as Lifebloom does over a normal fight, or they are at least always very close. I wouldnt discount the healing from SL.

Nether Prot isnt a must have, but it sure is nice for Malacrass, Archimonde, Azgalor, Gorefiend, and I'm sure others that I'm leaving out right now.

Either way SL/NP is way more beneficial then talent points that boost fire spells, when you should never be casting them except in very rare cases.
#1984SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
[quote=Silverstorm;680207]I'll agree with the gear/playstyle/rotation comments and the majority of talent comments. There is a useful place for 2 of those points, and that's in Imp Drain Soul. More of your damage will come from affliction spells than shadowbolt, so the -10% threat there is valuable to some extent (depends on tank competence). Most likely that point in Amp Curse is useless, unless accompanied with CoEx (typically for Vashj strider kiting) or you actually get to CoA/CoD (not likely). The extra point could also go in shadowburn for lack of another place. It's saved me enough to warrant putting a point there. The single point in Imp Healthstone can also help with organizing all 3 healthstones in your raid, since a majority of builds seem to have 0 or 2 points there.
QUOTE]

You're completely right for some reason I always forget to click those 2 points in improved drain soul - no matter how good your tank is it's definitely a better DPS gain than any other talent no matter how situational (think off-dotting). Amplify curse is nice for CoDing the off-dot target if not a lot of people are off-dotting it though. I find shadowburn less useful than the other options (1/3 improved imp or 1/2 intensity or CoEx). Going to try and edit the link to get threat reduction
#1985SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arelenda
Originally Posted by Nicarras View Post
Fair enough I suppose. Granted I pretty much always raid with 3 locks 2 SPs and 2 mages. I toss an incin maybe on Mother but thats only when She's Fire Vuln. Otherwise you are never casting a fire spell ever. I have looked at WWS and 2/3 Soul Leech heals about as much as Lifebloom does over a normal fight, or they are at least always very close. I wouldnt discount the healing from SL.

Nether Prot isnt a must have, but it sure is nice for Malacrass, Archimonde, Azgalor, Gorefiend, and I'm sure others that I'm leaving out right now.

Either way SL/NP is way more beneficial then talent points that boost fire spells, when you should never be casting them except in very rare cases.
I agree. Soul Leech and Nether protection, while far from key talents, are nice to have. I rarely use fire, with the occasional immolate on stuff where I can't risk a huge crit. I don't even bother with Shahraz's vulnerability since even when vulnerable I do more with SB. (usually no scorch)

I enjoy Soul Leech, and typically make sure I'm never at full health to maximize its efficiency. I enjoy Nether Protection as well, it's super against dispellable dots and procs off Archi's fear.

It's all details, though. Both NP&SL and Emberstorm/Immo are filler spells to me. Nice to have, but the key is S&F, Ruin and ISB. The rest is taste. This will probably change post 2.4. though. While ISB will still probably reign in raids, the difference will be much smaller between fire and shadow, boosting the effectiveness of fire talents.
#1986SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Deathwing
I would count Soul Leach and Nether Protection as mostly filler, situationally usefull. Most of the time, Soul Leach is going to be overheal unless your healers are really slow.

Since 2.4 will make fire better than shadow for personal dps, I see a hybrid spec that takes Emberstorm and Improved Immolate(and Conflagrate for shits and giggles, though good for solo farming and burst fights) much better than pure shadow build that takes cataclysm, soul leach, and nether protection. Where a hybrid spec will be useful is on 10 and 5 mans. Quite a good chance you'll be grouped with no other shadow users, and most likely a mage, hopefully a fire one. In that case, it is much better to use Immolate and Incinerate over SB spam. Even if you get a frost mage, it is more beneficial to put up CoE for both of you because the fire rotation is just about even with sb spam when there are no extraneous fire or shadow buffs(CoE/CoS from yourself was included when I ran the specs in the spreadsheet).
#1987SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3taybul
Soul Leech is definitely useful when there's raid-wide (RoS) or AoE damage (Council) going around. It helps your healers more than you know when you can be somewhat self-sufficient via the passive healing. I find it particularly useful on fights with temporary heal buffs (again RoS, Bloodboil).

Nether prot is also a nice utility if you don't have to tank. I never appreciated this talent more than the time I got Barraged on Illidan and someone said that it was on a Pally.
#1988SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Deathwing
I don't know, I've never found Soul Leech useful. The overheal on my fights(T4 and T5) are almost always over 70%. I also looked at WWS reports for Council, couldn't find a Shadowlock that had overheal percentage less than 70% on Soul Leech.

The other problem with both of these talents is that they are low chance. No ones going to change the way they play around Nether Protection or Soul Leech, so their impact will be very small.
#1989SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Deathwing View Post
I don't know, I've never found Soul Leech useful. The overheal on my fights(T4 and T5) are almost always over 70%. I also looked at WWS reports for Council, couldn't find a Shadowlock that had overheal percentage less than 70% on Soul Leech.

The other problem with both of these talents is that they are low chance. No ones going to change the way they play around Nether Protection or Soul Leech, so their impact will be very small.
The impact may be small but it's still a clear positive benefit. The same can't necessarily be said for the other filler talents.

70% overheal means 30% effective. That's still "free" healing that potentially saves healer mana, your life or DPS time you might have needed to waste on drain-life. There are plenty of fights with raid damage where you can use a heal but aren't at the top of the healers' list because others are more damaged. I'm glad to have an extra source of HP on any fight where tapping might push be below a safe HP level.
#1990SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3taybul
Originally Posted by Deathwing View Post
I don't know, I've never found Soul Leech useful. The overheal on my fights(T4 and T5) are almost always over 70%. I also looked at WWS reports for Council, couldn't find a Shadowlock that had overheal percentage less than 70% on Soul Leech.
I think I'd be more concerned if that overheal% was much lower as it would suggest that your healers aren't topping you off much. Regardless, even if the proc rate is fairly low, it's still greater than 0.
#1991SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nicarras
Don't know, even with the Emberstorm change, in 25 man raids I cannot see how a shadow/fire mix destro build will out damage a shadow dest build. (outside of some odd group setup)
#1992SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Deathwing
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
The impact may be small but it's still a clear positive benefit. The same can't necessarily be said for the other filler talents.

70% overheal means 30% effective. That's still "free" healing that potentially saves healer mana, your life or DPS time you might have needed to waste on drain-life. There are plenty of fights with raid damage where you can use a heal but aren't at the top of the healers' list because others are more damaged. I'm glad to have an extra source of HP on any fight where tapping might push be below a safe HP level.
You're going to count 30%*20%*20%=1.2% on average of damage done as clear positive benefit? For 5 points of a 30-point prereq talent, that is a piss-poor investment. Might as well start debating the clear positive benefits of Cataclysm(which, btw, provides less than 1% dps improvement).

Also, I would bet that it's not even 1.2%. Since the health benefit comes in somewhat large, unpredictable chunks, it pushes the incoming heals from your healer even farther into their overheal territory. Very rare is the situation where healer is able to make a clear decision fast enough that you don't need a heal now because of a Soul Leech proc.

EDIT: Nicarras: Didn't say it would. A pure fire build definitely will. My case for a hybrid build(which is basically dumping soul leech, nether protection, and cataclysm for improved immolate, emberstorm, and conflagrate) is to make a much more versatile destro build while lowering your dps by less than 1%. In situations where there aren't any other shadow users or the only other caster is a fire mage(common in 10 and 5 mans), a hybrid build will definitely do more damage than shadow.

Last edited by Deathwing : 03/21/08 at 2:46 PM.
#1993SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Cronjob
Originally Posted by Deathwing View Post
EDIT: Nicarras: Didn't say it would. A pure fire build definitely will. My case for a hybrid build(which is basically dumping soul leech, nether protection, and cataclysm for improved immolate, emberstorm, and conflagrate).
Conflag is a DPS loss no matter what...

We'll have to see how it all pans out but so far pure fire still wont out do pure shadow because of ISB. "IF" you dont calculate that into the equation then fire pulls ahead but so slight that its worth it in the long run. Fire needs to have an ISB equivalent in order to really make it on par with pure shadow.
#1994SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Deathwing
Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
Conflag is a DPS loss no matter what...

We'll have to see how it all pans out but so far pure fire still wont out do pure shadow because of ISB. "IF" you dont calculate that into the equation then fire pulls ahead but so slight that its worth it in the long run. Fire needs to have an ISB equivalent in order to really make it on par with pure shadow.
Oh, I know about Conflag. For one point though, it's a useful soloing tool, and for burst situations. Where else are you going to stick that one point?

Have you played around with Leullier's spreadsheet? He's got the 2.4 changes in there, fire does more personal dps than shadow by a fair margin, 7% to 10%. Of course that doesn't take into account ISB from OTHER warlocks, which is why I only advocate using the fire rotation when there are no other shadow users in the raid. Otherwise, ISB is indeed much more beneficial.
#1995SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Deathwing View Post
You're going to count 30%*20%*20%=1.2% on average of damage done as clear positive benefit? For 5 points of a 30-point prereq talent, that is a piss-poor investment. Might as well start debating the clear positive benefits of Cataclysm(which, btw, provides less than 1% dps improvement).

Also, I would bet that it's not even 1.2%. Since the health benefit comes in somewhat large, unpredictable chunks, it pushes the incoming heals from your healer even farther into their overheal territory. Very rare is the situation where healer is able to make a clear decision fast enough that you don't need a heal now because of a Soul Leech proc.

EDIT: Nicarras: Didn't say it would. A pure fire build definitely will. My case for a hybrid build(which is basically dumping soul leech, nether protection, and cataclysm for improved immolate, emberstorm, and conflagrate) is to make a much more versatile destro build while lowering your dps by less than 1%. In situations where there aren't any other shadow users or the only other caster is a fire mage(common in 10 and 5 mans), a hybrid build will definitely do more damage than shadow.
Yes I would consider that a positive benefit? Given the amount of damage tossed out in t6 raids, some healing is better than no healing. I consider that a clear positive. Points sunk in emberstorm when I never use incinerate is zero gain. (Since you put it as an aside like it's not a gain, cataclysm also gives DPS and requires you to tap less which means your HP doesn't drop as often).

Maybe you're confused about what I'm saying. I'm not claiming it's the best talent, just that it has a positive return on your talent points while emberstorm doesn't in t6 raiding (where there will always be at least one SP). For me, I'll choose the free hp5, chance at immunity to raid damage and fewer life taps (which means safer raiding).
#1996SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
The ISB uptime increase you cause greatly depends on the current number of shadow priests and destruction warlocks in the raid, so you have to check individually for every raid setup to really tell if fire is worth switching to. Not to mention the difference between fire and shadow's DPS also depends on the actual ISB uptime, so the less shadow priests your raid has the better shadow destruction is as ISB uptime will be higher, but then again your ISB contribution will be a little lower.

Bottom line is that fire VS shadow has a lot more to it than just "shadow has ISB". I suggest checking which spec adds more total raid DPS for your normal raid setup to know for sure what's worth speccing into.

For example with the raid setup I used on the spreadsheet with 2 dest 1 aff and 3 sp, switching to fire drops raid ISB by ~12% so 7% worth of personal DPS (delta ISB uptime multiplied by rest of raid's shadow dps divided by personal dps). That means if I'd gain 7% DPS by speccing fire it would be break even, less would be a DPS loss and more would be a DPS gain. This setup has 45.5% ISB uptime by the way. Just an example to show how much your raid setup can matter - if I would've set the shadow priests to do more DPS then it would be quite higher than 7%.
#1997SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
Conflag is a DPS loss no matter what...

We'll have to see how it all pans out but so far pure fire still wont out do pure shadow because of ISB. "IF" you dont calculate that into the equation then fire pulls ahead but so slight that its worth it in the long run. Fire needs to have an ISB equivalent in order to really make it on par with pure shadow.
Well, I wouldn't say quite that: There are 2 situations where I will use conflag.

1. In place of shadowburn as a mob is about to die.
2. On the move in a situation where I have full mana or don't want to lifetap.

My situation is probably rather rare. I have just about every offpiece in BT Hyjal that I want, and some that I don't really need, and I have only 2t6. But without 4t6, fire is comparatively a stronger build.
#1998SourcePosted on<=2.0.0menx
Spec Reco?

My lock has been an arena toon for some time now. I've decided to bring him into raids, and as such my gear is mostly arena gear with bits and pieces from kara, gruuls, and za. I've pretty much socketed my way really close to the hit cap.

Given my current gear/stats, I'd like some recommendations as to what spec I should be focused on? I believe my crit is too low for destro, which is the spec i'd like to attain. thoughts? comments?

1035 shadow damage
196 hit rating
13.66 crit %

I was thinking bout something like this?
Talent Calculator - 31/9/21
#1999SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Suggestive
That spec sucks. Use the spreadsheet, and read the first post of the thread.
#2000SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Cohren
Originally Posted by menx View Post
My lock has been an arena toon for some time now. I've decided to bring him into raids, and as such my gear is mostly arena gear with bits and pieces from kara, gruuls, and za. I've pretty much socketed my way really close to the hit cap.

Given my current gear/stats, I'd like some recommendations as to what spec I should be focused on? I believe my crit is too low for destro, which is the spec i'd like to attain. thoughts? comments?

1035 shadow damage
196 hit rating
13.66 crit %

I was thinking bout something like this?
Talent Calculator - 31/9/21
Thats about the worst spec I have ever seen posted on these forums for raiding. Either go with a heavy affliction build or the standard 0/21/40 destruction.

As for the fire vs. shadow debate with ISB unchanged the numbers are way to close for a switch to fire as whats been said before, there is still more benefit to staying shadow.
#2001SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Hozed
need some advice.

ive looked around and figured this is the best place to post this...

basically when it comes to spell haste, i have no clue whats going on.

recently i picked up footpads of madness and the loop of cursed bones out of ZA during our bear runs. ive done all the math and figured out that i will loose 43 dmg, and .10 crit to gain 52 haste, about 2.42 sb cast time. with the haste gear on it would put my dmg at 1310, and crit at 19.16%. is it worth it? ive heard the term 1 haste = 1.2 dmg if thats true then id say its def worth it.

and also, i have quag's eye, and the lock trink form tk.
a passive 37 dmg and 48 dmg. im assuming the proc off quag's eye (320 haste, 20.29% for 6 secs) out weighs the +11 dmg i get from the lock trink? im not sure what the internal CD is on the eye but im guessing it over 1 min.

thanks for the help, Cursd
#2002SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vazu
Originally Posted by menx View Post
1035 shadow damage
196 hit rating
13.66 crit %

I was thinking bout something like this?
Talent Calculator - 31/9/21
SM/Ruin is garbage in BC.

With those stats, figure out between your Warlocks who has what for Healthstone talents in the guild, and spec something like this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Now you have a debuff role with Malediction and this build has two points leftover for Imp. Drain Life or Healthstone ranks. It's a good start at least. Imp. Howl of Terror isn't "necessary", nor is Fel Concentration really but they're both good pickups for all-around play, without hurting your raid viability. Nightfall is crap for raiding. You can slowly get rid of points in Suppression as your hit gear quality increases, but it's a good filler talent for starter gear.
#2003SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
There isn't really any reason to take fel concentration, at least not over nightfall and shadow embrace. Same goes for instant howl. This is the PvE thread not PvP shadow embrace is probably by far the #1 reason to bring an affliction warlock to a raid, with imp coming somewhat behind and malediction being just a sidekick, as while increasing other people's DPS you're reducing your own by more or less (depending on gear level and number/classes of shadow users) the same amount you just increased theirs.

As for healthstone, you have better places to spend that talent point, let the destruction warlocks syncronize their healthstones as they have no better place to put those points - 1 of them should have 2/2 and the other 1/2 with you (the affliction warlock) spending that point either in intensity, improved imp or curse of exhaustion.
If you put that point there you just lost a point in one of those talents while the destruction warlock that now needs to have 0/2 improved healthstone has nothing to do with that point, so that would be a waste.
#2004SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3hypetech
Originally Posted by Hozed View Post
ive looked around and figured this is the best place to post this...

basically when it comes to spell haste, i have no clue whats going on.

recently i picked up footpads of madness and the loop of cursed bones out of ZA during our bear runs. ive done all the math and figured out that i will loose 43 dmg, and .10 crit to gain 52 haste, about 2.42 sb cast time. with the haste gear on it would put my dmg at 1310, and crit at 19.16%. is it worth it? ive heard the term 1 haste = 1.2 dmg if thats true then id say its def worth it.

and also, i have quag's eye, and the lock trink form tk.
a passive 37 dmg and 48 dmg. im assuming the proc off quag's eye (320 haste, 20.29% for 6 secs) out weighs the +11 dmg i get from the lock trink? im not sure what the internal CD is on the eye but im guessing it over 1 min.

thanks for the help, Cursd
Quag's eye is 10% chance to proc, no internal cooldown.

Thottbot World of Warcraft: Spell Haste Trinket
#2005SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
taybul
Originally Posted by Hozed View Post
ive looked around and figured this is the best place to post this...

basically when it comes to spell haste, i have no clue whats going on.

recently i picked up footpads of madness and the loop of cursed bones out of ZA during our bear runs. ive done all the math and figured out that i will loose 43 dmg, and .10 crit to gain 52 haste, about 2.42 sb cast time. with the haste gear on it would put my dmg at 1310, and crit at 19.16%. is it worth it? ive heard the term 1 haste = 1.2 dmg if thats true then id say its def worth it.

thanks for the help, Cursd
The way I see it with haste is that the percentage reduction you get from it on casting time is the same percentage increase in DPS. In other words, 1% haste should increase DPS by 1% as well. I base this solely on the haste stat alone and don't consider the trade-off with other stats. In reality though, most haste gear pre-2.4 have just haste and damage, so you'll likely be losing out on more damage and/or crit. Fortunately, 2.4 haste gear will also have crit and some hit on it as well.

As for whether they're worth it, eh...seems like you're running MH/BT so if you go by the 1 haste = 1.2 dmg, then there are better loots for those slots than these ZA items. (spellthread neck piece comes to mind if you're not hit capped).

edit: For my own edification I tried to prove the 1 haste = 1.2 dmg, here's what I did:

Given:
- 600 second fight (10 minutes)
- You can just bolt the entire time
- 0/21/40
- Your shadowbolt hits on average for 2000
- 1% haste (15.77 pts)
- damage/crit are constant, and you don't miss or crit

W/o haste:

600 / 2.5 = 240 bolts * 2000 = 480,000 damage

W/ haste:

600 / (2.5/(1+0.01)) = 242.4 bolts * 2000 = 484,800 damage

---

Taking the haste total damage, the equivalent damage per bolt without haste is (484,800 / 240) 2020, or +20 damage/bolt.

20 / 1.057 (SnF) = +18.92 equivalent damage

18.92 dmg / 15.77 haste = 1.1998 damage/haste, or 1.2 damage = 1 haste

------

Don't forget though that haste only really shines in much longer fights, and also assuming you can stand there casting for long periods of time. If you're just killing trash that shouldn't take more than a minute of combat, someone with, say 2% haste will throw just as many bolts as someone without haste, so start stacking!

Last edited by taybul : 03/24/08 at 11:08 AM.
#2006SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
There isn't really any reason to take fel concentration, at least not over nightfall and shadow embrace.
If you got Fel Raged, got the debuff during Gorefiend and during Phase 2 on RoS Fel concentration can be a life saver, and it is a great soloing (as a drain tank) and PvP talent.

There really isn't much to get if you are deep 30+ afflicition anyway.
#2007SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Madlax
Originally Posted by taybul View Post
Taking the haste total damage, the equivalent damage per bolt without haste is (484,000 / 240) 2017, or +17 damage/bolt.

17 / 1.057 (SnF) = +16.1 equivalent damage

16.1 dmg / 15.7 haste = 1.02 damage/haste, or 1.02 damage = 1 haste

The first time I did this, i actually got 1.2 damage/haste, but that was considering partially casted bolts with haste (real number of bolts was something like 242.42).
It is 1.2 in fact, you need to watch for the run time you pick and not cut numbers - which is the vital part kinda.
600/2.475 = 242.42
*2000 /240 -2000 = 20.20
/1.057 and /15.7 = 1.21

This is a question of viewpoint ye, cause it comes down to the duration of the fight.

I just wrote the following, would be glad if someone can cross-read it for me and then just stick it onto the first page.


Sends a shadowy bolt at the enemy, causing 541 to 603 Shadow damage.
I assumed a 21/40 specc for this scenario and i rounded the SB coefficient down to 100% from 105.71.
Warlock with, an imaginary 100% hit and 30% crit.

A little explaining:
Without gear and mob debuffs the very average Shadow Bolt would hit for (603+541)/2 = 572 damage.
Lets add 428 spelldam to that - leaving every Shadow Bolt at exactly 1000 damage.
In raw theory over 100 casts we would now get 70x1000 + 30x2000 damage = 130.000 damage.

Stats increase:
1% crit - 22.1 rating
69*1000 + 31*2000
131.000 damage
~0.77% DPS increase

1% haste - 15.7 rating
Would give us 101 bolts, which on average would have 1300 damage.
131.300 damage
1% DPS increase

How much damage would give us 1% DPS increase?
131.300/(70+30x2) = 1010
1010 - 1000 = 10
10 damage would give us 1% DPS increase


Lets try that again at 1428 spelldam - where we would have 260.000
1% crit - 22.1 rating
69*2000 + 31*4000
262.000 damage
~0.77% DPS increase

1% haste - 15.7 rating
Would give us 101 bolts, which on average would have 1300 damage.
262.600 damage
1% DPS increase

How much damage would give us 1% DPS increase?
262.600/(70+30x2) = 2020
2020 - 2000 = 20
20 damage would give us 1% DPS increase


Now, as this maths indicates - Crit and Haste always give you a linear DPS increase per point, at each gear level.
Raw damage on the other hand gets more expensive the higher your Shadow Bolt damage gets.

Whats the downside of Haste?
With a 2.5(2.475) seconds cast time Shadow Bolt you would need a roughly 4 minute fight to get that 1% extra damage.
As your haste goes higher, this value goes lower.
If, for example you have 20% haste already, then it would take you 200 seconds of constant casting to do 100 Shadow Bolts.
1% haste will still give you another Shadow Bolt in that time span.


Lets do this with raid stats:
30% crit. 1728 spelldam.
CoS - 10%. Misery - 5%. Shadow Weaving - 10%. Saccrificed Succubus - 15%. 4part T6 - 6%.
2300 * 1.1 * 1.05 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.06 = 3562 Default Damage.

How much damage would give us 1% DPS increase?
467.690/(70+30x2) = 3597
3597 - 3562 = 35
35/1.1/1.05/1.1/1.15/1.06 = 22.6 damage
It would require 22.6 damage for 1% DPS increase.

Conclusion:
Haste will grant you the best Statpoint : DPS increase, in fight which are as long as your Shadow Bolts cast time times 100.(That would be 4 minutes to begin with).
15.7 haste rating will always, with above point, grant you 1% DPS increase.
#2008SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3taybul
Originally Posted by Madlax View Post
It is 1.2 in fact, you need to watch for the run time you pick and not cut numbers - which is the vital part kinda.
600/2.475 = 242.42
*2000 /240 -2000 = 20.20
/1.057 and /15.7 = 1.21
Yeah I rounded to count only "whole" shadow bolts and not partial ones (0.42), though I do see what you mean.
#2009SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Liminality
Originally Posted by hypetech View Post
Quag's eye is 10% chance to proc, no internal cooldown.

Thottbot World of Warcraft: Spell Haste Trinket


This is so wrong.... it has a 45 sec internal cooldown. There is a thread in these forums somewhere about what trinkets have hidden cooldowns and what don't. Everyone who has a Quag's eye will tell you it has an internal cooldown.
#2010SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
If argue getting a talent that provides less dps becuase you need it for survivability might as well go spec felguard or something, you'll have more survivability and more DPS than a half-assed affliction spec. In other words, if you're already going affliction you'd better also provide shadow embrace and do as much dps as you actually can do with that spec, otherwise you might as well spec destruction (unless your gear level is very low). On a side note, nobody tells the destruction warlocks to spec affliction for teron gorefiend or bloodboil so they have fel concentration - they survive fine without gimping their dps to get it, and so will you. If you already have a load of hit rating on your gear without even trying to make suppression a waste then you'd have a point as you still need 15 points in the first 3 affliction tiers to reach the higher ones, but none of the 4th-and-above-tier talents (that you're supposed to take) in affliction are negotiable.
#2011SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Suggestive
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
If argue getting a talent that provides less dps becuase you need it for survivability might as well go spec felguard or something, you'll have more survivability and more DPS than a half-assed affliction spec. In other words, if you're already going affliction you'd better also provide shadow embrace and do as much dps as you actually can do with that spec, otherwise you might as well spec destruction (unless your gear level is very low). On a side note, nobody tells the destruction warlocks to spec affliction for teron gorefiend or bloodboil so they have fel concentration - they survive fine without gimping their dps to get it, and so will you. If you already have a load of hit rating on your gear without even trying to make suppression a waste then you'd have a point as you still need 15 points in the first 3 affliction tiers to reach the higher ones, but none of the 4th-and-above-tier talents (that you're supposed to take) in affliction are negotiable.
I'm not seeing your point, its quite possible to pick up fel concentration without 'gimping' anything, that's what he was talking about. Between impCoA/Cow, and amplify curse, whichever you decide to take is pretty much a wash either way. In the context he was describing anyway, not that of the person who asked the question. I'd assume if he's facing bloodboil, he doesn't need suppression. Having fel concentration does not impact your ability to pick up shadow embrace then.

Last edited by Suggestive : 03/23/08 at 8:47 PM.
#2012SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kimmee
Sacrificing a Felhunter

I searched the thread and didn't see anything about it nor have I ever seen it mentioned before anywhere, so I figured I'd bring it up.

Have any of you ever experimented with sacrificing a Felhunter instead of a Succubus for raiding in a 0/21/40 spec? I had never even considered it before but a friend of mine really likes to do this on trash, and also on Kaz'rogal to combat the mana drain. I have always used it for farming, but tried it out in ZA for the first time recently and found that it virtually eliminates the need to Life Tap ever. Obviously in boss fights where you are moving around frequently and you can just Life Tap on the move, there is no point. But in a fight like Gorefiend, Naj'entus, or Anetheron where you are standing still the whole time and taking AoE burst damage which makes Life Tap potentially dangerous, it almost seems like the DPS gain from a Felhunter would be greater than the 15% from a Succubus (particularly if you aren't lucky enough to have a shadow priest or shaman in your group).

I was just curious if anyone else here has ever sacrificed a Felhunter while raiding and what they think about it.
#2013SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3taybul
Originally Posted by Kimmee View Post
I searched the thread and didn't see anything about it nor have I ever seen it mentioned before anywhere, so I figured I'd bring it up.

Have any of you ever experimented with sacrificing a Felhunter instead of a Succubus for raiding in a 0/21/40 spec? I had never even considered it before but a friend of mine really likes to do this on trash, and also on Kaz'rogal to combat the mana drain. I have always used it for farming, but tried it out in ZA for the first time recently and found that it virtually eliminates the need to Life Tap ever. Obviously in boss fights where you are moving around frequently and you can just Life Tap on the move, there is no point. But in a fight like Gorefiend, Naj'entus, or Anetheron where you are standing still the whole time and taking AoE burst damage which makes Life Tap potentially dangerous, it almost seems like the DPS gain from a Felhunter would be greater than the 15% from a Succubus (particularly if you aren't lucky enough to have a shadow priest or shaman in your group).

I was just curious if anyone else here has ever sacrificed a Felhunter while raiding and what they think about it.
This really depends on your own tapping habits. Generally you want to tap only when you really need to (ie, < 5% mana), or when you have to move so it doesn't compromise your DPSing. Another alternative which is getting popular is chugging mana pots, which doesn't set off the GCD.

I've tried sac'ing the felhunter for kaz, but his mana drain is faster than the mana regen so I'd end up tapping anyway just so I don't blow up.
#2014SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Savetheday
Originally Posted by Kimmee View Post
I searched the thread and didn't see anything about it nor have I ever seen it mentioned before anywhere, so I figured I'd bring it up.

Have any of you ever experimented with sacrificing a Felhunter instead of a Succubus for raiding in a 0/21/40 spec? I had never even considered it before but a friend of mine really likes to do this on trash, and also on Kaz'rogal to combat the mana drain. I have always used it for farming, but tried it out in ZA for the first time recently and found that it virtually eliminates the need to Life Tap ever. Obviously in boss fights where you are moving around frequently and you can just Life Tap on the move, there is no point. But in a fight like Gorefiend, Naj'entus, or Anetheron where you are standing still the whole time and taking AoE burst damage which makes Life Tap potentially dangerous, it almost seems like the DPS gain from a Felhunter would be greater than the 15% from a Succubus (particularly if you aren't lucky enough to have a shadow priest or shaman in your group).

I was just curious if anyone else here has ever sacrificed a Felhunter while raiding and what they think about it.
There's a few fights where I've been saccing a felhunter.

Mother Sharaz: I absolutely Hate lifetapping on this fight. Fatal Attraction and different beams can lead to a huge burst, life tapping in my experience can lead to random deaths.

Kazrogal: I find I usually only need to tap 1-2 times with felhunter whereas without one im tapping alot more then shadowbolting.

I've also been trying it out on Council. There's alot of random damage which can lead to a death and also it's a very long fight, so involves more and more lifetaps. According to my WWS parses the DPS output seemed to be roughly the same, So I'm not sure.
#2015SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Vazu
I can't think of a single fight in MH/BT where a destro Warlock should sac a Felhunter. There's no such thing as an encounter with no room to Lifetap. Obviously you need to be more careful at times, but you're losing out on a tremendous amount of DPS potential over a very average amount of mana regen. This is a situation where I can honestly say your healers are probably doing a poor job managing raid healing. Especially if you're so afraid of dying that you sac a pet for mana regen as opposed to using Lifetap and getting a HOT. Unless you pull aggro, or you're already very low on HP from an Envenom or some AE affect, nothing should be 1-shotting you. Never give up saccing a a Succubus.

Also, in response to the person above who wrote that you should wait to Lifetap until you're almost OOM. That's a horrible idea. Lifetap when you need to move, or the encounter has downtime. Use Lifetap as a way for your tank to build some threat so you aren't Soulshattering so early. I'll DPS to 110% threat frequently, and LT 2-3 times. That's usually enough time to drop me back below 100%. You wanna look for opportunities where you shouldn't be DPSing to Lifetap. The only time you should wait to Lifetap until you're basically OOM is on straight up burn fights like Teron Gorefiend or Rage Winterchill. Even then, on Rage you can Lifetap when (if) he throws his AE on top of you. Move, LT until you're out of it, resume DPS. Etc etc.

Last edited by Vazu : 03/24/08 at 4:57 AM.
#2016SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kalle
Originally Posted by taybul View Post
- 1% haste (15.7 pts)
1% haste actually requires 10*82/52 ~= 15.77 haste rating (according to WoWWiki).

Originally Posted by taybul View Post
W/ haste:

600 / (2.5 * 0.99) = 242.42 bolts * 2000 = 484,848 damage
Unfortunetly that is not the way haste reduces your cast time. The hasted cast time is 2.5 / (1+haste) for SB. This does not cause a huge change to your ratio, I get +20 equivalent damage, too (before SnF, without rounding). But it is the cause of the ratio getting worse the more haste rating you stack. Using 10% haste as base, I get +18.18 equivalent damage. At 20% haste it's +16.67 dmg.

If you look at the percental increase in damage, crit also gets worse the more crit you have. Just as hit gets worse the more hit you have and damage the more damage you have.
#2017SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
rochan
Knowing when to lifetap is what separates a good warlock from a great warlock. Obviously the method you want to use differs from fight to fight. You just have to think about it logically. The more experience you have at the fights the better decisions you'll make.

Also I can understand saccing a FH on Sharraz. It would be less DPS, but if you find yourself dying a lot then it would definately increase your survivability.

Last edited by rochan : 03/24/08 at 10:21 AM.
#2018SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Cronjob
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
Well, I wouldn't say quite that: There are 2 situations where I will use conflag.

1. In place of shadowburn as a mob is about to die.
2. On the move in a situation where I have full mana or don't want to lifetap.

My situation is probably rather rare. I have just about every offpiece in BT Hyjal that I want, and some that I don't really need, and I have only 2t6. But without 4t6, fire is comparatively a stronger build.
You dont have conlfag in your current spec. But I agree in your use of it although I'd go for shadowburn instead of conflag on a dying mob. Also not sure what having full mana or "dont want to lifetap" has to do with using conflag. From a DPS loss I was talking about on a standard boss fight, not trash or soloing.

Conflag is not part of the normal spell rotation for a Destro raiding lock. Spamming bolts > Immo + Conflag
#2019SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bandoer
Originally Posted by Madlax View Post
Crit and Haste always give you a linear DPS increase per point, at each gear level.
Raw damage on the other hand gets more expensive the higher your Shadow Bolt damage gets.
You get diminishing returns on haste and crit just like damage. Going from 0 to 1% haste is a bigger dps increase than going from 10 to 11% haste. Same with crit. You made an example of comparing 428 dmg and 1428 dmg but kept haste and crit constant, which doesn't prove your conclusion.

What you do want somewhat is a balance of stats. There are inflection points where the best Next Stat for dps changes depending on your gear level.
#2020SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3taybul
Originally Posted by Kalle View Post
1% haste actually requires 10*82/52 ~= 15.77 haste rating (according to WoWWiki).


Unfortunetly that is not the way haste reduces your cast time. The hasted cast time is 2.5 / (1+haste) for SB. This does not cause a huge change to your ratio, I get +20 equivalent damage, too (before SnF, without rounding). But it is the cause of the ratio getting worse the more haste rating you stack. Using 10% haste as base, I get +18.18 equivalent damage. At 20% haste it's +16.67 dmg.

If you look at the percental increase in damage, crit also gets worse the more crit you have. Just as hit gets worse the more hit you have and damage the more damage you have.
Thanks, fixed my post.
#2021SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Spoonman
Originally Posted by Vazu View Post
That's a horrible idea. Lifetap when you need to move, or the encounter has downtime. Use Lifetap as a way for your tank to build some threat so you aren't Soulshattering so early. I'll DPS to 110% threat frequently, and LT 2-3 times. That's usually enough time to drop me back below 100%. You wanna look for opportunities where you shouldn't be DPSing to Lifetap. The only time you should wait to Lifetap until you're basically OOM is on straight up burn fights like Teron Gorefiend or Rage Winterchill. Even then, on Rage you can Lifetap when (if) he throws his AE on top of you. Move, LT until you're out of it, resume DPS. Etc etc.
In addition, you should be lifetapping so that when you trinket/get a bloodlust, you have enough mana to chain cast for the entire duration of the buffs.
#2022SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Climaxe
basic stats.

Hello,

I have a question that may or may not be easy to answer because most dps spreadsheets are based on only one or 2 stats... not all of them.

However, my question is with 23% crit..1200 damage and max hit as a destro lock, would it be worth it to sacrifice 2 % crit for 50 haste. Basically... i recently picked up 2 haste items from ZA.. the cape and the boots. If i replace both of these items with my current gear, (boots of blasting/morose neck.. i know, had some bad luck with loot) will the haste increase my overall dps, even though im losing crit. I am personally not too familiar with how to make a spreadsheet to test this... so i thought i would ask here.

What is the base crit you want to reach befor haste will outscale crit?

This probably seems somewhat vague and im sure alot of variables dictate the outcome... but any info on the topic is appreciated.

Thanks.
#2023SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Arnath
Have you looked at the warlock spreadsheet? It will let you plug stuff like this in and get a quantitative answer.
#2024SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kimmee
Originally Posted by Vazu View Post
I can't think of a single fight in MH/BT where a destro Warlock should sac a Felhunter. There's no such thing as an encounter with no room to Lifetap. Obviously you need to be more careful at times, but you're losing out on a tremendous amount of DPS potential over a very average amount of mana regen. This is a situation where I can honestly say your healers are probably doing a poor job managing raid healing. Especially if you're so afraid of dying that you sac a pet for mana regen as opposed to using Lifetap and getting a HOT. Unless you pull aggro, or you're already very low on HP from an Envenom or some AE affect, nothing should be 1-shotting you. Never give up saccing a a Succubus.

Also, in response to the person above who wrote that you should wait to Lifetap until you're almost OOM. That's a horrible idea. Lifetap when you need to move, or the encounter has downtime. Use Lifetap as a way for your tank to build some threat so you aren't Soulshattering so early. I'll DPS to 110% threat frequently, and LT 2-3 times. That's usually enough time to drop me back below 100%. You wanna look for opportunities where you shouldn't be DPSing to Lifetap. The only time you should wait to Lifetap until you're basically OOM is on straight up burn fights like Teron Gorefiend or Rage Winterchill. Even then, on Rage you can Lifetap when (if) he throws his AE on top of you. Move, LT until you're out of it, resume DPS. Etc etc.
My concern was less about the survivability aspect (I don't die on boss fights, so its not a huge issue) and more about the actual DPS loss/gain. Saccing succubus is a 15% damage increase. Saccing felhunter eliminates the need to Life Tap. So therefore if you are Life Tapping 15% of the time or more (in fights where that time would have been spent DPSing) the felhunter would be more beneficial, correct? So on those nights when we only have 1 shadow priest show up and I'm left without one, I feel like I have to Life Tap a ton even when using mana pots. But is it 15% or more?? One Life Tap gives enough mana back for something like 4.5 shadow bolts. I know it sounds like a crazy idea, but it is food for thought at least. I might try it out on a couple bosses this week and see where my DPS stacks up against the other locks.
#2025SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rochan
Originally Posted by Kimmee View Post
I know it sounds like a crazy idea, but it is food for thought at least. I might try it out on a couple bosses this week and see where my DPS stacks up against the other locks.
No need to do that. The most recent spreadsheet by Leulier will model this. It is a huge dps drop. In fact, even if saccing a felhunter gave you infinite mana, saccing a succubus would still give more dps.
#2026SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
corsair
Originally Posted by Kimmee View Post
My concern was less about the survivability aspect (I don't die on boss fights, so its not a huge issue) and more about the actual DPS loss/gain. Saccing succubus is a 15% damage increase. Saccing felhunter eliminates the need to Life Tap. So therefore if you are Life Tapping 15% of the time or more (in fights where that time would have been spent DPSing) the felhunter would be more beneficial, correct? So on those nights when we only have 1 shadow priest show up and I'm left without one, I feel like I have to Life Tap a ton even when using mana pots. But is it 15% or more?? One Life Tap gives enough mana back for something like 4.5 shadow bolts. I know it sounds like a crazy idea, but it is food for thought at least. I might try it out on a couple bosses this week and see where my DPS stacks up against the other locks.
Yeah, sorry, I think this line of thought is flawed. Just take a 25 second time frame for example.

350 mp5s from felhunter sac is 1750 mana generated. And you have 10 shadow bolt casts, which cost 4200 mana, so a net cost of 2550 mana and 15% of your dmg.

0 mp5s from pet sac is 0 mana generated. And you have 9 shadow bolt casts, which cost 3780 mana and a life tap , which generates ~2k mana (really 1.5 life taps so 3k mana but it's unneccessary to be that precise in this example). So a net loss of 1780 mana. This cost you 10% of your other damage (only 9 of 10 SB casts), but you gained 15% from the succy sac. So it's a net gain in dps, and you lose less mana.

You can generalize this to be more analysis friendly, but I learn best with examples, so hopefully this one is clear enough that you can understand why saccing a succubus is always better if your healers can support you. If you trace down the spreadsheet formulas, it also shows the math for why succy is better.

Personally, I like the felhunter on Kaz, but he's the only one, and I'm sure that I'm wrong to "feel" this way. I just don't like chain life tapping when there are still people that explode.

Last edited by corsair : 03/24/08 at 7:15 PM.
#2027SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
Originally Posted by corsair View Post
Personally, I like the felhunter on Kaz, but he's the only one, and I'm sure that I'm wrong to "feel" this way. I just don't like chain life tapping when there are still people that explode.
Spread out more not to mention you can tap way before the explosion when the raid is topped off so when you do get the mark you have more than enough mana and don't need to tap when people are actually exploding.

Regarding fel concentration, I was replying to specs that were linked that included it over the defining talent of shadow embrace as well as other talents that actually increase DPS like nightfall. Of course if it comes as your "first 15 affliction" talent there's no problem... For example if your gear happens to have +14% hit on it already something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft would be great. However it is not worth intentionally gearing for hit so you can spec out of suppression. As affliction your dps shouldn't be aggro pulling enough to warrant more hit on soulshatter at the cost of DPS, and 1 hit rating is slightly inferior to 1 spell damage for affliction, not to mention 5 hit is even more inferior to 6 spell damage. I still dont' see how you can have 5/5 and still get amp curse which is probably going to be more useful more often for CoD on an off-dot target, not to mention you're losing soul siphon - while it doesn't stop interrupts it greatly increases the amount of drains and is actually useful on the fights where you would maybe need it and actually not take any pushback (say, a bad kaz'rogal with oom healers and everyone blowing up buying that bit of extra time to finish him off). With 14% hit on gear I'd probably still take Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.


haste diminishing returns
While haste is quite close to a linear stat like all other stats and therefore its relative value diminishes the more you have of it, just like any other stat does, the fact it doesn't increase your efficiency does have a cost. Look at the relative value of haste compared to other stats on lieuler's with 350 mp5 and 0 mp5 and see that it goes down by a very small amount when you have 350 mp5. Also if you look at the actual (#) DPS increase from adding a point of haste rating when you have a little compared to when you have a lot you will notice the actual dps gain is a tiny bit smaller with higher base haste. This will not be true for spell damage or crit. This effect is extremely small though when you actually look at the numbers - so while haste does have a little extra diminishing returns over what every stat has, it has an extremely small effect.
#2028SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Krazen
Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
You dont have conlfag in your current spec. But I agree in your use of it although I'd go for shadowburn instead of conflag on a dying mob. Also not sure what having full mana or "dont want to lifetap" has to do with using conflag. From a DPS loss I was talking about on a standard boss fight, not trash or soloing.

Conflag is not part of the normal spell rotation for a Destro raiding lock. Spamming bolts > Immo + Conflag
Sorry. Key words were 'will use', ie in my 2.4 spec.

I know the jury is still out on this, but I'm personally convinced that fire will be a superior dps spec in 2.4.

During movement, there are 3-4 options:

1. Drums
2. Lifetap
3. Conflag
4. Do nothing


Sometime 1 and 2 are not possible or desirable. Conflag should be a net dps gain in this (situational) situation. Keep in mind almost every boss fight requires some kind of movement. Or it resets aggro and you want to get a last bit of damage in.

Either way, 2.4 fire Destro has a free point; you might as well take it.

Last edited by Krazen : 03/25/08 at 12:17 AM.
#2029SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
I know the jury is still out on this, but I'm personally convinced that fire will be a superior dps spec in 2.4.
Well, you will be able to find out tomorrow if this is the case for you.


From my personal testing of the spreadsheet, Fire was higher personal dps, however imp SB was up less so there would be less raid dps.
#2030SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3galzohar
You also need to move close to the end of immo or else you will easily get rid of more immo dps than you gained by conflagging, or at least close enough for it to not be worth the mana. Conflag is so rarely useful that once immolate is break-even on DPS (taking ISB into account) there's absolutely no point and there's very very little point to get it regardless. Heck 1/5 cataclysm will provide more DPS on some cases, maybe even enough to outweight conflag's talent point even for the immolate user. Not to mention if you're at the/a point where immolate isn't worth casting it makes conflag even more of a waste. Not to mention speccing into fire talents means you have exactly 1 floating point in destruction (while if you don't take fire talents you can take pretty much whatever you see fit in destruction while keeping your max dps - be it tanking talents, nether protection, 2/3 soul leech etc).
#2031SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Seir
Hi, my guilds been on Mother for about 2 weeks now and we've been trying out switching from SB to Incinerate during the ice and shadow aura's; however, because we've been on her only a short time I don't feel i have enough data to determine if its more effective then just spamming shadowbolts at her, so I was wondering if any other locks with more experience on mother has determined this yet?
#2032SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Morwen
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
From my personal testing of the spreadsheet, Fire was higher personal dps, however imp SB was up less so there would be less raid dps.
Balanced by the fact that ISB will be 'worth' less in a raid with fewer shadow users. It is pretty close for any sort of reasonable number I plug in. For a quick raid-tailored estimate, just take:

S = total current raidwide shadow dps
U = current ISB uptime
P = your personal dps
U' = ISB uptime after you switch to fire
P' = your personal dps after switching to fire

In order for fire to be worthwhile, it must be the case that

P' > S - (S-P)(1+0.2U')/(1+0.2U)

Or to put it in terms of 'how much does fire need to beat shadow by?'

P' - P > (S-P)(1 - (1+0.2U')/(1+0.2U))

A couple toy examples would be:
If there's currently 5000 shadow dps excluding you, U = 60%, and U' = 50%, then fire needs to beat shadow by 89 dps to be worth switching.
If there's currently 8000 shadow dps excluding you, U = 70%, and U' = 66%, then fire needs to beat shadow by 56 dps to be worth switching.

Last edited by Morwen : 03/24/08 at 8:23 PM.
#2033SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Trickykid
Originally Posted by Seir View Post
Hi, my guilds been on Mother for about 2 weeks now and we've been trying out switching from SB to Incinerate during the ice and shadow aura's; however, because we've been on her only a short time I don't feel i have enough data to determine if its more effective then just spamming shadowbolts at her, so I was wondering if any other locks with more experience on mother has determined this yet?
My non-crit incinerates were hitting for less than my non-crit SBs during "less shadow" and "more fire" auras so I keep to SBs now when ISB was not up. That's a lower bound too since incinerates would need to hit for ~10% more (depending on Shadow-users) than SB without ISB to be worth switching to.
#2034SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krazen
Originally Posted by Seir View Post
Hi, my guilds been on Mother for about 2 weeks now and we've been trying out switching from SB to Incinerate during the ice and shadow aura's; however, because we've been on her only a short time I don't feel i have enough data to determine if its more effective then just spamming shadowbolts at her, so I was wondering if any other locks with more experience on mother has determined this yet?
Immolate is probably worth casting during shadow/frost auras, but incinerate probably isnt. Don't be dumb about this, but try to squeeze your lifetaps in during shadow auras.
#2035SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Seir
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
Immolate is probably worth casting during shadow/frost auras, but incinerate probably isnt. Don't be dumb about this, but try to squeeze your lifetaps in during shadow auras.
Yeah, I didn't have a doubt about Immolate, and I personally tend to tap between aura changes (so if a holy aura pops i can devote the entire aura uptime to it) as well as during the Shadow Phase.

It just seems in theory it would get you greater damage but I'm tending to lose damage to the switching between the two do to mostly human error and do to the randomness of the auras its hard to tell.

I figure if no one has already figured it out for sure then I'll just keep track of my damage on shahraz, and over time draw a conclusion off of the relative frequency data.
#2036SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0weijonny
2.4 spell haste buff

since the 2.4 spell haste big buff, is it a good idea to go full spell haste SB?
then it would be point less to cast immolate, just like casting any other dots?
just wondering, if the haste can be buffed to 2sec or less per SB, then dps would be around the SB dmg you are doing.
gears depended.
#2037SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Cronjob
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
Sorry. Key words were 'will use', ie in my 2.4 spec.

I know the jury is still out on this, but I'm personally convinced that fire will be a superior dps spec in 2.4.

During movement, there are 3-4 options:

1. Drums
2. Lifetap
3. Conflag
4. Do nothing


Sometime 1 and 2 are not possible or desirable. Conflag should be a net dps gain in this (situational) situation. Keep in mind almost every boss fight requires some kind of movement. Or it resets aggro and you want to get a last bit of damage in.

Either way, 2.4 fire Destro has a free point; you might as well take it.
I guess I'm still now following or maybe I've been missing out. But in my normal rotation I never cast Immolate except on the initial blast then I go into a pure bolt spam. Occassionaly I will toss another one up after an aggro reset but for the most part I just bolt spam.

Now if what you are saying is that in 2.4 switching to fire you will be using Immolate + conflag + Incinerate then thats an interesting spell rotation although I'm not sure I'm completely sold on fire spec yet.. Soulfrost ftl
#2038SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Cohren
There was no ISB change so I don't know why Fire vs. Shadow is still being discussed. Unless your guild brings like 5+ Warlocks, they(You) all should be shadow spec'd to help the raid. Raiding has never been about the individual but rather the synergy between the different classes. There are some steep DPS fights in Sunwell and your raid is going to have to squeeze out every last drop of damage so unless the gain in DPS of a Fire lock out gain's the loss of DPS from lost ISB uptime I see no reason to spec fire for progression.
#2039SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0 Eph
Wouldn't it be difficult to keep Immolate up in an Incinerate rotation while gaining haste gear? Or would it be best to Conflag or Life Tap perhaps at the very end of the Immolate? It seems like haste's value would be more difficult to determine with this uneven rotation. Or is everyone assuming another raid member's Immolate will be up and there would be no downtime?
#2040SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Liminality
um

Originally Posted by Bandoer View Post
You get diminishing returns on haste and crit just like damage. Going from 0 to 1% haste is a bigger dps increase than going from 10 to 11% haste. Same with crit. You made an example of comparing 428 dmg and 1428 dmg but kept haste and crit constant, which doesn't prove your conclusion.

What you do want somewhat is a balance of stats. There are inflection points where the best Next Stat for dps changes depending on your gear level.

that is completely not true...


The italicised part is incredibly false...


All things kept constant, the move from 0-1% is not as big of a dps increase as 50-51%. In fact, it increases exponentially. When you move from 98% to 99%, the DPS increase is astronomical compared to even the 50-51%. I am not a math major or anything, so I wouldn't know exactly how to prove it. The increase in the number of attacks in a given time frame increases exponentially as downtime is reduced. Does that make sense?

I did play FFXI for a long time where there is a combo for Dark Knight that involves stacking haste that follows the same principle, so I am sure its right.

This is also assuming no global cooldowns and whatnot to fuck everything up


At least that's how I believe haste works, correct me if I am wrong...



As for Crit. I think the increase in DPS is linear. From 1% to 2%, the increase is static. From 98% to 99% the incrase is the same. However, more crit is more ISB uptime, which is a hidden factor that will incrase DPS (raid and individual). So I guess, ISB uptime would actually skew crit from a linear incrase in DPS to a line that curves upwards like haste, but not nearly as efficient at higher levels.

overly wordy, i know, i apologize

Last edited by Liminality : 03/25/08 at 12:56 PM. Reason: forgot something
#2041SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Krazen
Originally Posted by Eph View Post
Wouldn't it be difficult to keep Immolate up in an Incinerate rotation while gaining haste gear? Or would it be best to Conflag or Life Tap perhaps at the very end of the Immolate? It seems like haste's value would be more difficult to determine with this uneven rotation. Or is everyone assuming another raid member's Immolate will be up and there would be no downtime?
Not really. It takes a bit more brainpower than rolling the mousewheel while watching TV, but it shouldn't be considered difficult.

I posted some ideas on that a few pages back:

[Warlock] PVE Raiding Compendium


But the cycle is ultimately quite simple:

1. If Immolate isn't up, cast it.
2. If Immolate has time > (Your incin cast time), cast incinerate.
3. If Immolate has time < (Your immo cast time), cast immolate.
4. If Immolate has time between 2 and 3 (usually between 1.4 and 2.1 seconds or so for the average t6 player), lifetap, pushing you into 3. If you don't want/need to lifetap, just cast an unbuffed incinerate.
5. If you move, Lifetap (this is the same as Shadow, really). If you don't want/need to Lifetap, Conflag, and start at 1.
#2042SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Trickykid
Originally Posted by Liminality View Post
that is completely not true...


The italicised part is incredibly false...


All things kept constant, the move from 0-1% is not as big of a dps increase as 50-51%. In fact, it increases exponentially. When you move from 98% to 99%, the DPS increase is astronomical compared to even the 50-51%. I am not a math major or anything, so I wouldn't know exactly how to prove it. The increase in the number of attacks in a given time frame increases exponentially as downtime is reduced. Does that make sense?

I did play FFXI for a long time where there is a combo for Dark Knight that involves stacking haste that follows the same principle, so I am sure its right.

This is also assuming no global cooldowns and whatnot to fuck everything up


At least that's how I believe haste works, correct me if I am wrong...



As for Crit. I think the increase in DPS is linear. From 1% to 2%, the increase is static. From 98% to 99% the incrase is the same. However, more crit is more ISB uptime, which is a hidden factor that will incrase DPS (raid and individual). So I guess, ISB uptime would actually skew crit from a linear incrase in DPS to a line that curves upwards like haste, but not nearly as efficient at higher levels.

overly wordy, i know, i apologize
The DPS increase from each stat generally remains constant across levels of investment. Adding 1% haste if you have zero will add 1% of your unhasted DPS. Adding 1% if you have 10% will add 1% of your unhasted DPS. The point the previous posters were trying to make was that relative to other stats every individual stat will decrease the more you invest. In my above example, if you have 10% haste, 1% more will give you 1.11/1.1 => 0.91% increased total DPS, but an extra 1% crit gives a full 1%.

The same happens for each of the stats. As one increases, the relative value added by the other stats increases. None of them have exponential "take offs" like you say.
#2043SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0NanoHaxial
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
Not really. It takes a bit more brainpower than rolling the mousewheel while watching TV, but it shouldn't be considered difficult.

I posted some ideas on that a few pages back:

[Warlock] PVE Raiding Compendium


But the cycle is ultimately quite simple:

1. If Immolate isn't up, cast it.
2. If Immolate has time > (Your incin cast time), cast incinerate.
3. If Immolate has time < (Your immo cast time), cast immolate.
4. If Immolate has time between 2 and 3 (usually between 1.4 and 2.1 seconds or so for the average t6 player), lifetap, pushing you into 3. If you don't want/need to lifetap, just cast an unbuffed incinerate.
5. If you move, Lifetap (this is the same as Shadow, really). If you don't want/need to Lifetap, Conflag, and start at 1.
Incinerate gains a bonus damage regardless of who put up the Immolate, doesn't it? That means as long as a you had a couple Locks then it should always be up, and the only issue you'd face is that you'd have less than 100% Immo uptime yourself.
#2044SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Krazen
Originally Posted by NanoHaxial View Post
Incinerate gains a bonus damage regardless of who put up the Immolate, doesn't it? That means as long as a you had a couple Locks then it should always be up, and the only issue you'd face is that you'd have less than 100% Immo uptime yourself.
I believe it does, but that shouldn't change a whole lot, since you want to be casting Immolate for its superior DPCT. If you get a SPriest, you might not have to Lifetap, but most of us aren't that lucky and have to LT at some point anyway.
#2045SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Villeraz
Given enough other warlocks casting immolate, it should always be up, and will probably not need to be refreshed before it expires. There may be a possibility of small gaps where it isn't up, but this probability decreases rapidly to negligible past the 2nd warlock.

Someone could try to model "immolate uptime" .

A simple model would be to work with maximum overall % downtimes, which would correspond to the cast of an incinerate (factoring in haste) minus the cast time of an immolate (factoring in haste), divided by the duration of immolate (which may change with Tier 4 bonus) and the downtime calculated.. This would represent the worst-case scenario of casting an incinerate at the last possible moment before you would have the opportunity to cast a fresh immolate.

In a simple case with no haste (other than emberstorm), this is (2.25-1.5)/(15+2.25-1.5), which is ~4.76%. With two warlocks, the chance of both warlocks being in "downtime" is then ~0.23%.

You could increase the complexity of the model by factoring in the fact that incinerate is not being chain-cast, so it will not overlap entirely with the overall % downtime, although I think my model shows that with even two warlocks, the uptime on immolate is fairly good. However, it does not factor in affliction warlocks (who place immolate lower in priority than their other dots), the few occasions where a curse takes priority over immolate, and obviously, shadow destruction locks who do not cast immolate. Also, it assumes that the warlock will be able to watch timers precisely enough to know when their immolate can be renewed without overlap.
#2046SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Nicarras
Originally Posted by Seir View Post
Hi, my guilds been on Mother for about 2 weeks now and we've been trying out switching from SB to Incinerate during the ice and shadow aura's; however, because we've been on her only a short time I don't feel i have enough data to determine if its more effective then just spamming shadowbolts at her, so I was wondering if any other locks with more experience on mother has determined this yet?
I've tested this on our last 3 kills.

Even with Immo up, Incin still hits for less than my SBs do in my shadow dest spec even when shes in Shadow phase.

Silly, yes...but I just spam SBs the entire fight. I might LT more during the SR phase though.

It's a Melee fight for the most part...you are just there to provide support DPS and not kill them.
#2047SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0weijonny
spam sb

after 2.4 the haste buff would denfinatley uneven, aff lock might have a hard time to change their dots route.
if i can get all haste gears from the game, including ZA, 2.4, and sunwell etc.. then all i would do is spam SB, immolate+instant corruption from t5 bonus, then if free time, incernate.
phew phew phew phew! SB dps 2000+

CANT WAIT!!! 12:30 grrrrr
#2048SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Nicarras
At my gear level, adding Immolate to my rotation (meaning between SBs when its down) adds a whopping 2dps in the Warlock spreadsheet. And after I get my gear from Sunwell that I want (basically finish out my BC gear) I actually lose about 60 dps casting Immo.

I don't even know why we keep talking about if Immo is worth it. It is really simple.

If Aff
Then Cast Immolate
Else if Dest
Then Dont Cast Immolate

Last edited by Nicarras : 03/25/08 at 3:33 PM.
#2049SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Trickykid
Originally Posted by Nicarras View Post
At my gear level, adding Immolate to my rotation (meaning between SBs when its down) adds a whopping 2dps in the Warlock spreadsheet. And after I get my gear from Sunwell that I want (basically finish out my BC gear) I actually lose about 60 dps casting Incinerate.

I don't even know why we keep talking about if Immo is worth it. It is really simple.

If Aff
Then Cast Immolate
Else if Dest
Then Dont Cast Immolate
I think the above posters are referring to fire builds. With improved immolate, emberstorm and sacrificed Imp, immolate has a higher DPCT than incinerate.
#2050SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Goedel
raid dps with imp

Discussion about 0/21/40 raid specs in 2.4 built for sacrificing an imp and using fire damage got me to thinking about builds designed to keep the imp around. However, it has been difficult to analyze this possibility quantitatively.

Please note that I have followed the discussion here closely, and I am well aware of the phenomenon of people urging a less effective approach that has been clearly discredited, on the basis of anecdotal evidence or inappropriate comparisons (such as out-performing guildmates with less skill or other poor specs or gearing). There is a little discussion of this possibility months ago in another thread but no solid quantitative answers that I have yet found.

Oddly, the initial post of this thread mentions several unusual talent specs that I doubt see much use (Destruction with Siphon Life?), but there is no reference under either the Demonology or Destruction sections to a build for Shadowbolt or Incinerate spam alongside an imp casting Firebolt, along the lines of either this 0/21/40 or this 0/39/22 (or this variant on the latter). These certainly appear more promising than some of the builds that have been discussed. Unfortunately, finding accurate data for modeling them is difficult.

What's needed:
  • the rule for deriving the imp's spell damage
  • the rule for deriving the imp's crit rate
  • the rule for deriving the imp's hit rate (is it still 83% against raid bosses, unaffected by the master's stats?)
  • the spell damage coefficient for Firebolt (assuming that the general formula takes the same form as with a player's spells, adding [(some coefficient) * (bonus damage)] to the base spell damage)
  • the order of operations for talents that affect it
  • whether the Improved Firebolt talent silently affects spell damage coefficients the way mages' Improved Fireball and Improved Frostbolt used to
  • whether Ruin affects the imp

Possible solution: Firebolt damage = (<base Firebolt damage as indicated in tooltip> + <fixed coefficient> * <warlock's bonus damage>) * (1 + 0.1 * <points in Improved Imp>) * (1 + 0.04 * <points in Unholy Power>) * (1 + 0.05 * <points in Soul Link>) * (1 + <imp's crit rate, which is the same as master's crit rate>) * <hit rate>.

Nuking alongside the imp will be higher dps than sacrificing it as long as the imp's dps is higher than 15% of the warlock's. Actually, in the 0/39/22-style builds, it only needs to exceed 10% of the warlock's pre-Soul Link damage (though that damage may be lower than in the 0/21/40-style build). Here's one sample calculation; I hope people don't get tripped up in "but my numbers are such-and-such, so this whole conversation doesn't apply!"; you can perform the same calculation. If a warlock does, say, 1600 dps on a 30% crit rate and 1200 bonus damage, the imp would need to hit 360 damage per 1.5-sec Firebolt (after talents, including both crits and non) to exceed the dps gain from sacrificing it. Without soul link, that's 213 (base damage + C * bonus damage), which is 97 bonus damage, or a 0.08 coefficient.

So, before I attempt rigorous testing with various gear and talent combinations, can somebody point to a definitive source that has already determined the missing variables, which I have not found here or on the ever-spotty wowwiki?

Additional considerations:
  • Imps when not phase-shifted can be fragile. Talents can mitigate this. Players can be fragile, too, and many who claim to be serious about min-maxing raid dps dismiss stamina entirely or treat dps vs. survivability tradeoffs very fuzzily. The "standard" stand-and-shoot model is, as we know, hardly standard in current raid content anyway. The best approach is to determine the ideal dps for this case just as for the others and then to work out more rigorously how serious this drawback is for various fights.
  • Keeping the imp out allows one to double as a provider of fully improved Blood Pact (as long as the imp doesn't die; see above).
  • In the 0/39/22-style builds, Master Demonologist grants 20% reduced threat.
  • The imp may run out of mana. In a 0/39/22-style build, it may be possible to replenish it fast enough to keep going indefinitely at the cost of some dps; the gain through maintaining its Firebolts must be weighed against the lost dps from other talents. It is also possible to begin a fight with the imp casting and then sacrifice it when its dps contribution slows, continuing as in a normal 0/21/40 imp-sacrifice fire spec.
#2051SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Deathwing
It is REALLY easy to kill the imp through soul link.
#2052SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0rochan
Originally Posted by Goedel View Post
lol Imp DPS
It really doesn't matter, the Imp will die on pretty much every BT/MH fight & trash pull.

Not to mention its damage hardly scales at all. In full Sunwell gear when you are doing 3000 DPS, your imp will still be doing 150.

The spreadsheet models it effectively enough, and common sense will dictate that it's not worth using.
#2053SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Goedel
Rochan, do you have any idea what "hardly scales at all" means? Numbers are helpful (or symbolic math). If you cannot provide the spell coefficients, what is your justification for asserting it is not worth using? I was under the impression this was a board where quantitative reasoning was preferred over unsupported "common sense". Moreover, common sense tends to lag well behind precise understanding (if it ever matches at all). The game changes fairly often. If Blizzard released a patch with the note "spell damage coefficient for Imp's Firebolt increased by 10%", would you know how to even begin evaluating that? Maybe you would, but you have said nothing to indicate it. Personally, I'd rather know how to compute the value of different possibilities at any time than memorize (and relearn whenever applicable) a list of conclusions somebody else has derived without being able to check that derivation.

And, again, I am aware of the imp's fragility. Those who do have the numbers to fill in, consider it purely an academic exercise, if nothing else, and indulge my curiosity for figuring out exactly what its dps would be if that were not a concern.

Last edited by Goedel : 03/25/08 at 4:40 PM.
#2054SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Trickykid
Originally Posted by Goedel View Post
Rochan, do you have any idea what "hardly scales at all" means? Numbers are helpful (or symbolic math). If you cannot provide the spell coefficients, what is your justification for asserting it is not worth using? I was under the impression this was a board where quantitative reasoning was preferred over unsupported "common sense". Moreover, common sense tends to lag well behind precise understanding (if it ever matches at all). The game changes fairly often. If Blizzard released a patch with the note "spell damage coefficient for Imp's Firebolt increased by 10%", would you know how to even begin evaluating that? Maybe you would, but you have said nothing to indicate it. Personally, I'd rather know how to compute the value of different possibilities at any time than memorize (and relearn whenever applicable) a list of conclusions somebody else has derived without being able to check that derivation.

And, again, I am aware of the imp's fragility. Those who do have the numbers to fill in, consider it purely an academic exercise, if nothing else, and indulge my curiosity for figuring out exactly what its dps would be if that were not a concern.
Considerable work has been put into the spreadsheet to estimate pet DPS as well as its dependencies on your gear. So your curiosity can be indulged with currently available tools.
#2055SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Morwen
Originally Posted by Goedel View Post
Numbers are helpful (or symbolic math).
The numbers in the Leulier spreadsheet are:
- Pets get 15% of your +dmg
- Firebolts get 45% of the pet's spell damage coefficient
- Miss rate is fixed, pets do not get +hit
- Crit rate is 5% before talents, pets do not get your +crit

And it results, in the best case, in Sacrifice beating the imp by a factor of 3 to 1.
#2056SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0galzohar
Raiding with imp
Even if your crazy idea could work, you're giving up shadow embrace, which is quite more important than having an imp out. The only viable spec that has shadow embrace is 43/0/17 +1 (or with extreme gear 38/0/21 +2) and both keep an imp out anyway. While it's easier to see the benefit of extra HP on the tank, the fact is -5% of boss' melee damage is that much more important, not to mention you can simply have both. Bottom line is if your DPS is worth gimping to get an imp out, it is most definitely worth gimping to get shadow embrace!

So the ansewer to "can an imp-dps demonology spec work?" is "even if it worked it's not worth it as full affliction is better if you want to support your tank and destruction is better for DPS". Not to mention that most likely the dps loss of shadow embrace spec over your spec will provide more survavability per dps lost than your spec provides over a destruction spec, if affliction even loses dps compared to your spec in the firstplace.

Haste diminishing returns
I said this before and I'll say it again, if you have any mana regen, the more haste you gain the less #DPS you gain, however the effect is extremely slight. Compared to spell damage, which (if ignoring extra mana from lifetaps which will cause tiny *increasing* returns on spell damage) would give a fixed amount of #DPS no matter how much you have, keeping other stats constant. This effect (on both stats) is extremely tiny, though - you can check it yourself on the spreadsheet.

fire specs and raid dps support
While buffing raid DPS is nice and all, dealing more damage yourself is also more beneficial. You cannot argue warlcoks should be shadow "to support raid DPS" just like you can't argue moonkins "becuase they have good synergy" (and while I won't go into moonkin viability, we all know how many raids acccept moonkins). Due to the fire buff you will have to look at the DPS your raid will lose VS the personal DPS you will gain if you switch to fire, which is, as said many times already, depends on your actual raid composition.

conflag with fire spec
Not every movement that doesn't include a life tap should have a conflag. Remember it has a mana cost and makes you lose the DPS from immolate ticks. Optimally you would know exactly how much time you have left on moving and assuming conflag is worth the time to reapply immolate you'd conflag 1.5s before stopping to move, but often you don't know how much longer you'll be moving and thus on average you will probably lose more DPS from conflagging than you'd gain.
This is very hard to accurately calculate, though, as you can't even determine the chance for you to stop moving within less than 1.5s and how much before that etc.
Just keep in mind that mindlessly casting conflag according to the "script" (in post 2041) can definitely cause you to lose dps.
#2057SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
taybul
Conflag should really be used only if it's the last mob and it's about to die. If it's one mob of many, let that immolate tick off and put a new one on the next mob. If the next mob is sheeped, you're better off lifetapping or applying curses.

Last edited by taybul : 03/26/08 at 3:51 PM. Reason: EJ'd
#2058SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0galzohar
Obviously if it's a "mob is almost dead issue" and there's another mob, DPS other mob rather than conflag - you'll deal more dps even without taking mana cost into account.
#2059SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Seir
I personally, as a rule of thumb, only conflag on trash if it'll do the same or more damage then the remaining ticks and it won't delay a new incinerate.

I don't think it's ever of use during boss encounters because most times you might be able to gain from conflag it's probably better to just lifetap in the long run.
#2060SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Nas
Has anyone done the maths of the [Icon of the Silver Crescent] vs [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] for an Affliction Warlock? And does the proc on the trinket consume ISB at all?
#2061SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Jaydedspirit
Spell haste

Doing alot of looking around I haven't been able to find any proof of this but my current raid leader mentioned to me that spell haste now works for our dots, making them tick faster needing a refresh cast sooner. I was really wanting to know if this true considering that if this is true an affliction locks dps would increase quiet a bit if they knew how to properly control there dots and timings.
#2062SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Amathal
I haven't heard anything about that. Spell Haste does affect the global cooldown now, maybe that is what he meant?
#2063SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0armitageiii
Alright. I have read through about 40 pages of this thread to find a clear answer. I've downloaded the spread sheet etc.

My question.

With warlocks geared such as this:
One
(In pvp gear at the time i posted this)

In a raid with 2 warlocks and 2 shadow priests. What spec would increase the over all dps in the raid. 0/21/40 Shadowbolt or Incinerate. This is assuming both locks are ISB. And also assuming there is a scorch mage in the raid. On say a fight like brutallus or something.

I would really enjoy a mathematical proof or something straight forward.

Thanks in advanced!
#2064SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Darkwand3r3r
Originally Posted by armitageiii View Post
Alright. I have read through about 40 pages of this thread to find a clear answer. I've downloaded the spread sheet etc.

My question.

With warlocks geared such as this:
One
(In pvp gear at the time i posted this)

In a raid with 2 warlocks and 2 shadow priests. What spec would increase the over all dps in the raid. 0/21/40 Shadowbolt or Incinerate. This is assuming both locks are ISB. And also assuming there is a scorch mage in the raid. On say a fight like brutallus or something.

I would really enjoy a mathematical proof or something straight forward.

Thanks in advanced!
A simple fact is that ISB does increase the raid dps of your shadow users. The fire spec does not improve the raid dps of others at all. So therefore i would say, without calculations, that shadow would be better for the overall raid dps.
Fire might be more dps for yourself right now, with the new emberstorm, but the raid will loose some dps because of the lack of ISB debuff.
I can do some easy maths a bit later today to clarify. And prove my point i hope, or not ofcourse.

-----
For the above 2 posters about haste with dots. Haste does not make your dots tick faster. Only the global cooldown is affected for dotting. So it is a small increase in dps perhaps, but nothing major.
#2065SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Anthraxx
Has anyone already worked out 2.4 best gear setup for a destruction warlock?

Which 4 of the T6 pieces?

On the other note: [Quick Lionseye]/[Runed Crimson Spinel]/[Reckless Pyrestone] look just about the same dpswise to me (assuming 1 haste = 1.2 dmg in t6 lvl gear), but what about dimnishing value of haste?
#2066SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0ninielin
With the massive lack of hit on sunwell armor I don't think you ll need to socket those gems , veiled pyrestone all the way Unless there a quite a few items not known yet.
#2067SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Kobal
Originally Posted by armitageiii View Post
In a raid with 2 warlocks and 2 shadow priests. What spec would increase the over all dps in the raid. 0/21/40 Shadowbolt or Incinerate. This is assuming both locks are ISB. And also assuming there is a scorch mage in the raid. On say a fight like brutallus or something.

I would really enjoy a mathematical proof or something straight forward.
According to my own spreadsheet it is very close - less than a 5 DPS difference - as long as at least one of the warlocks is shadow specced. This was calculated with warlocks and shadow priests in good BT/Hyjal gear (including 4pc T6), but should stay roughly the same on lower gear levely. It also matters surprisingly little if the fight allows the shadow priests to use SW: D.

However, I tried out the fire spec for the first time yesterday in Hyjal, and in my subjective impression I did not observe the individual DPS gain that I should have observed according to the spreadsheets. This may be due to unfamiliarity with the spec, or due to the fact that I still have soulfrost on my weapon (I was just experimenting after all ), but I have a gut feeling that for some unknown reason theory and practice differ here. What did other destruction warlocks observe?
#2068SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0dydoe
about gear and stats

hi, I just need some advise regarding stats, as well as the new patch has added haste on the new items, btw I have some doubts before patch, just to clarify, about improvement on which items should I choose, to keep the same or better stats.

first, I'm 0/21/40 spec., you can also check my stats on the armory, but if you're lazzy I can say I have 203 hit, 1054 spelldamage unbuffed and 21% crit without bane.

I'm using lot of pvp stuff, cause I'm not a taylor, and I'm only raiding kara, gruul, magtheridon, 3 bosses from ssc and 1 of TK.

I always like to look for my own stuff via badges or heroics, cause sometimes is hard to get a neat loot when you're with +25 members, even when at least 10 are clothies.

I always test my stats browsing some sites for maximizing dps, so when I fill the blank with 202 hit so the better stuff appears to be the +crit ones. It seems that I have to improve crit, maintaining hit, isn't it? so, usually specific items are used to have +crit or +hit, but in theory, sometimes is better for example to equip legs with +crit than ones with +hit. Am I wrong?

I have noticed the best way to improve crit is to equip stuff with +crit, (at least is better than gemming it with crit gems), but at the same time I have noticed some patterns about items for each bodypart, If i'm not wrong, tier robes has no crit, idem with some other stuff.

the question is, if I have to choose between crit or hit, in stuff like robes, do I have to get the +crit one? If the robe has slots too, is not easier to get the one with crit, and gem it with +hit? or is better to choose the one with +hit and gem it with crit?

In other hand, regarding haste, do we have to gear ourselves using now hit>haste>damage>crit?

I have read crit rating should scale equally with damage, does anyone know a kind of "rule" to follow it? (for example, exagerating; if you have 6000 damage so 10% crit is too low, or if you have 50% crit then 600 damage is too low)

to finish, I'm now using 2 t4 pieces, to get the bonus, but is it really good? or should I get tehe robe and take another helm? even being a pvp helm?

I'm sorry if i'm bothering someone, but there's a lot of stuff on the web, and I came here cause this web seems to be the better one.

(I'm not a native english speaker as well :p)
#2069SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Darkwand3r3r
@Dydoe.

Yes you have to maintain a high lvl of hit rating at almost any cost. I'm not sure if you should stay capped at 202 or a bit over or lower. Depends on how many side the dice has, does it roll for 1-100 to calculate the percentage, or does it roll 1-10000 and takes every 0.01% chance into the roll? But that doesnt change the fact that hit is extremely important for a 0/21/40 lock, or any spec for that matter.

If you use the spreedsheat you can see the value of every next stat and you can decide on what to get from there. It is usualy something like this, if hit capped:
Spell dmg +1
Crit bit lower than 1, but this depends on your own stats allot and the raid setup if enabled.
Haste rating 1.3
Hit rating is the most important stat up to the cap.

On the robe choice, it really doens't matter. Just make sure you're hit is near/on/over the cap.

You can't really classify 1 stat better than the others. It's relative, meaning 30 spelldmg is allot more important if you have 500 spell dmg than 30 crit rating. Again, use the spreadsheet to determine how the stats are valued and decide according to that. Also note that even if people say get this and that, you possibly don't have acces to all items, be it on higher raid levels or them just not dropping.
The same thing with the dmg vs crit rule. There is non. It depends on your current stats.

So to summarise, keep your hit high enough, use the spreadsheet which is located in this topic. And just go with the gear you can actually get or have.

I found 0/21/40 not to work that well in early T5 instances, Affliction was still gear then. It became better during late T5 instances. Might consider speccing Affliction aswell. But do what you find most fun ofcourse. At that raiding level not optimizing your spec to your raid enviroment won't really make a ground breaking difference.

Hope I could be of any help to you.

@Kobal

You can only really compare the 2 "specs" with each other either by theory or by testing it for a very lengthy period of time. With a game that almost runs on chances, the rule of large numbers applies, this means the large the amount of result you have from testing the more accurate it is. So all in all if the theory says it does more dps, believe in that. But there might be variables that the spreadsheet does not take into account, though i don't know what, since all the data gathered is based on testing, which again doesn't have to be accurate because it is also based on chances.
If 50 warlocks try the new spec the results will varie from really crap to extremely overpowered. From a non mathematical aproach to the 2 specs, the dps should be about equel now. But that's just guessing.
#2070SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0dydoe
Darkwandered, thank you very much, I always had in mind if I want to be 21/40 then I have to be hit cap. I don't believe the sheet could help me that much, (and due to my language seems to be impossible to fully understand it), btw I feel the best way to improve is to equip the most +hit stuff of each part, cause then I can gem the slots with +damage and crit can comes with some other stuff, even with that ones with +hit and +crit.

In fact, I have got a green trinkete with +26 hit, and thinking in change the enchant of my gloves from 15 hit to 20 damage, (my actual trinkete seems to be nerfed, now that nexxus horn is not that better, so i dont care in replace it, and for pulls I use the one you get with skyward exalted, getting +80 damage between one kill) I'm working on getting the crusader mooncard, but, it will take a lot in a low quantity of players server. I'm using the icon too, and is ok.

I have never played affli, in fact I leveled being demo, till FG, and mixed FG-affli, and FG-destru, then tried 0/40/21, this one was great for 5 man in my opinion, even more when you usually have to use your succi and not your FG, and the damage you gain with SL and DK is pretty good.

now with destro I feel better.

I'll keep an eye on this forum, just to know how is going with the new patch, and to know if haste is that good.

again, thank u.
#2071SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Trickykid
Originally Posted by Darkwand3r3r View Post
A simple fact is that ISB does increase the raid dps of your shadow users. The fire spec does not improve the raid dps of others at all. So therefore i would say, without calculations, that shadow would be better for the overall raid dps.
That conclusion doesn't follow. If Fire_DPS > Shadow_DPS + Increased_Raid_DPS(from ISB), then fire wins. Other non-DPS factors like the fact that increasing SP dps further increases the DPS of his group via VT could be considered on Shadow's side as well.
#2072SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0clavarnway
On the spreadsheet for me haste shows as about 1.3-1.4 worth as +damage and crit. However haste doesn't help with ISB...so for a raiding warlock with 2-4 Warlocks and 1-2 spriest per raid, is crit worth as much as haste, or more?
#2073SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
rochan
If you actually looked hard you would see it is in the spreadsheet.
Raid TNS = 1 means it accounts for ISB from your crit/hit/haste. You can set other warlocks/sps in the Raid ISB tab.

I see crit worth slightly less than haste (1.4 vs 1.5 compared to 1.1 vs 1.45 without Raid TNS) with 3 locks/2 sp although it will depend how you set up the Raid ISB sheet.

Last edited by rochan : 03/27/08 at 1:09 PM.
#2074SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
cynics
I am a raiding Warlock up to illidan, i am spec'd destro and i am a fairly competent player.


There are a few things i want to know:
1. How does +haste and +dmg compare to each other? (meaning is +haste better than +dmg and at what point is one better than the other?)

2. I plan on replacing the gems in my chest with Reckless Pyrestone as i am over the hit cap.
2a. Should i also repalce +crit/+dmg gems with Reckless Pyrestone or even Reckless Noble Topaz aswell?
2b. Any other thoughts on my gemming choice? (typically we dont give out Epic gems for items that will be upgraded quickly and we don't give out spinnels fro anything short of T6 or equivalent)
3. i know that i should be going for 4pc T6 but due to DKP this is a ways off for me, should i replace any of the T6 slot items with non-T6 in the meantime (e.g. gloves, pants, chest, shoulders, or Helm)?

4. I hear a lot about fire build and it seems feasible if raid makeup is right but typically we typically have 1 mage in raids, and for the most part they are a wasted spot. i'd assume this would mean fire isn't as viable as Shadow in our mage makeup, is that a correct assumption?

Edit: Removed my profile link cause im a noob and didn't know it was built in to my account, Epic FAIL! GG on the infraction!

Last edited by cynics : 03/28/08 at 6:58 PM.
#2075SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0LockApologist
@cynics:

1. spreadsheet

2. spreadsheet and generally, if you already have an epic gem, it is not worth replacing, unless you have a glut of pyrestones/want to farm all the badges. the difference between 5 crit and 5 haste is minuscule.

3. I'm not sure what you would replace any of those with that was not T6 (minus getting Vashj robe or shoulders from Gurtogg/Aneth). Outside T6, your first upgrade should be the neck and wand, as both of those are not that great.

4. If you run more spriests than fire mages, it's probably better to stay shadow. But, if you run light on locks/spriest and heavy on mages (like my guild), fire is appealing.
#2076SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Audious
I'm debating on whether or not I want to craft [Sorcerer's Alchemist Stone].

I'm currently using [Icon of the Silver Crescent] & [Quagmirran's Eye] as my main trinkets.
I have [The Lightning Capacitor] sitting around collecting dust as well.

The other badge trinket's just don't seem to be worth the trade off, though I was considering picking up [Battlemaster's Alacrity].

I'm still hoping I could pick up [Hex Shrunken Head] at some point. This, [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] looks pretty neat as well.

Thoughts?

Armory Link
#2077SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
cynics
Originally Posted by LockApologist View Post
@cynics:

1. spreadsheet

2. spreadsheet and generally, if you already have an epic gem, it is not worth replacing, unless you have a glut of pyrestones/want to farm all the badges. the difference between 5 crit and 5 haste is minuscule.

3. I'm not sure what you would replace any of those with that was not T6 (minus getting Vashj robe or shoulders from Gurtogg/Aneth). Outside T6, your first upgrade should be the neck and wand, as both of those are not that great.

4. If you run more spriests than fire mages, it's probably better to stay shadow. But, if you run light on locks/spriest and heavy on mages (like my guild), fire is appealing.
i have used the spreadsheet, but once i change my gear the dps/ stats don't change not sure what i was doing wrong ill try again.

The gems in my chest and shoulders are Blue quality so that means it would be better to go from blue hit/dmg to Epic haste/dmg.

The next item i will upgrade is neck off RoS or the offhand for Chill, we rarely do TK so that wand is kinda difficult get.

Thanks for the info

EDIT: i went ahead and tried to get teh chart to work, but when i change to my current gear the values on the DPS tab never change. is there something im doing wrong? (im using excel 2003 and i have enabled macros, i also have allowed circle calculations)

EDIT2: My copy was corrupted got it working thanks for the help.

Last edited by cynics : 03/28/08 at 7:00 PM.
#2078SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0clavarnway
Originally Posted by Audious View Post
I'm debating on whether or not I want to craft [Sorcerer's Alchemist Stone].

I'm currently using [Icon of the Silver Crescent] & [Quagmirran's Eye] as my main trinkets.
I have [The Lightning Capacitor] sitting around collecting dust as well.

The other badge trinket's just don't seem to be worth the trade off, though I was considering picking up [Battlemaster's Alacrity].

I'm still hoping I could pick up [Hex Shrunken Head] at some point. This, [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] looks pretty neat as well.

Thoughts?

Armory Link
From what I know Icon is valued at about 67 +damage. The 40% more mana thing is worth 40mp/5 assuming you chain-pot Super's. So open spreadsheet and figure out how how much +dmg 40mp5 is worth and see if it's worth more than 4 damage.

This is assuming Icon is valued at 67 damage.

I'm fairly certain the alchemist trinket is also better than Eye, since as far as I know Icon is universally agreed for Warlocks to be better than Eye already.

There is also something to be said about trinkets with equip effects instead of use. Less things to worry about, the better.
#2079SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0galzohar
Keep in mind excel spreadsheets are pretty easy to "destroy" (by overwriting the box that calculates something with a constant number...). Try re-downloading the spreadsheet and if it still has problems go post on the appropriate thread (another) Warlock DPS Spreadsheet

So how do I tell if I should be fire or shadow???

The spreadsheet allows you to do that! If you didn't manage, you weren't trying hard enough.

The spreadsheet has a "raid ISB" tab at the bottom. Click on it. There you can enter the number of shadow users, their classes and % SB cast (or MB frequency for SPs - SWD (at least last version I downloaded, may had been changed by now) is assuemd to be used on cooldown). Keep in mind you will probably have 1 warlock affliction in your raid if your guild cares for progress so make sure to get the proper SB cast% for him (which can be easily done by the spreadsheet by modifying your own rotation and seeing the SB cast%). Enter the appropriate DPS (stand and shoot DPS, not WWS/damagemeters/SWS/etc DPS - consult shadowpriest.com or some other simulator for DPS of your shaodow priests). Make sure when entering the DPS of other classes to enter the fully buffed/debuffed DPS but NOT including ISB DPS! (important if you're using lieuler's spreadsheet to get the warlock's DPS (in which case put ISB to custom and 0%) or some shadowpriest simulator that takes ISB into account (again try make it calculate with 0% ISB uptime)).
Note that if you enter their DPS after ISB the results won't be skewed *too much* but you'll favor shadow by a little bit more than you should.

Go back to the main tab, spec yourself destruction and enter your fully buffed stats to get your own DPS. Choose ISB model to "Raid ISB". Write down your DPS (on paper or in a different cell) and go to the ISB tab. Look at the ISB uptime and multiply it by 1/5 of the total shadow DPS in your raid (not including yourself - as your own ISB DPS is already counted). Add that DPS to the personal DPS you got (no, that's not really how much DPS you bring to the raid, but the ISB DPS that doesn't actually belong to you will get reduced anyway in a second).

Spec yourself fire destruction and repeat the process. Still add to your personal DPS the ISB DPS! (or reduce it from the shadow DPS result...). Write down those numbers.

Grats! Now you see how much DPS you will gain/lose by swapping to fire and back (by deducting the 1st number you calculated from the 2nd one - negative would be DPS decrease to go fire destro and positive would be an increase for fire destro. You probably want to try it for more than 1 possible raid makeup, especially if your guild's makeups vary and especially if you got close results for fire and shadow.
#2080SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Trickykid
Originally Posted by clavarnway View Post
There is also something to be said about trinkets with equip effects instead of use. Less things to worry about, the better.
Err, I disagree. "Use" effects can be stacked on top of DPS phases or other group/raid/proc buffs to magnify their value. The nature of passive effects means you "waste" them on any period of time where you are doing less or no damage.
#2081SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Nas View Post
Has anyone done the maths of the [Icon of the Silver Crescent] vs [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] for an Affliction Warlock? And does the proc on the trinket consume ISB at all?
Timbal's is better than Icon, assuming you always have a DoT on your target.

Timbal's proc does not eat imp SB, and its damage is affected by it.
#2082SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0galzohar
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
Err, I disagree. "Use" effects can be stacked on top of DPS phases or other group/raid/proc buffs to magnify their value. The nature of passive effects means you "waste" them on any period of time where you are doing less or no damage.
While this effect has a rather small effect on the effectiveness of "use" trinkets, it's definitely a much more valid argument than "less to worry about". Unless you're just horrible at this game, a "use" trinket at a worst-case scenario (meaning you absolutely can't predict when it'll be good so just mashing it whenever it's up) will deal it's average damage (damage*duration/cooldown). At any realistic scenario it'll deal more than that (although most of the time only slightly more) since you're not an idiot and know the fight at least just a little bit and know when to use it to make sure to use it with bloodlust/boss vulnerability/not when needing to lifetap/not when you know you're likely to move and waste it.

While if you can't predict when it'll be good to use it can screw you over, it's just as likely to get lucky on you and give you good damage. On average, though, if you have any way to predice the "bad time to use" periods even by the slightest, you'll gain slightly more than its average damage.

Saying it's one less thing to worry about means you need some motivation and focus help in your raiding more than you need dps anyway, in which case I wonder how you ever stepped out of the void zones in Arcatraz while getting your karazan key.
#2083SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Pidge
Originally Posted by Darkwand3r3r View Post
@Dydoe.

Yes you have to maintain a high lvl of hit rating at almost any cost.
I have to disagree with that statement. Hit is a valuable DPS stat, but you don't HAVE to have it. It's simply the cheapest stat to increase DPS with.
#2084SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Touf
Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
I have to disagree with that statement. Hit is a valuable DPS stat, but you don't HAVE to have it. It's simply the cheapest stat to increase DPS with.
Soulshatter resists really, really suck.
#2085SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
TangoDigital
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Timbal's is better than Icon, assuming you always have a DoT on your target.

Timbal's proc does not eat imp SB, and its damage is affected by it.
I'd like to know how you come to this conclusion, just out of interest.

I'm not a pro at maths so I won't claim this is correct but:

If we assume a PPM of 7 for the trinket, the additional spelldmg of the proc effect should be (380*7)/60=44.3.
This would clock the trinket in at +88 dmg on averange, placing it right beside the Darkmoon Card... for a DoT-lock at least.

Can anyone confirm this or am I totally off?

Soulshatter resists really, really suck.
I'll second that. IMO hit really is the primary stat you should go for until it's capped. Not only because of the DPS-value but also because of the massive trouble you can get yourself into when your spells are resisted. Soulshatter being the obvious... but you also lose quite a bit more DPS when that DoT is resisted just before you need to start moving around. You'll not only lose a GCD per se, but also the entire DPS-time lost until you can reapply. As said if that UA gets resisted and you need to move around for 5 seconds, that's 5 seconde of UA DPS lost to the lack of hit.
So yeah... it is that important.

Last edited by TangoDigital : 03/28/08 at 6:11 AM.
#2086SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Kobal
Originally Posted by TangoDigital View Post
I'll second that. IMO hit really is the primary stat you should go for until it's capped. Not only because of the DPS-value but also because of the massive trouble you can get yourself into when your spells are resisted. Soulshatter being the obvious... but you also lose quite a bit more DPS when that DoT is resisted just before you need to start moving around. You'll not only lose a GCD per se, but also the entire DPS-time lost until you can reapply. As said if that UA gets resisted and you need to move around for 5 seconds, that's 5 seconde of UA DPS lost to the lack of hit.
So yeah... it is that important.
While this statement in itself is correct, it should be noted that there are ways to circumvent these issues without sacrificing too many other DPS-Stats for hitrating.

The problem with soulshatter resists can at least be mitigated by having an alternative weapon/ranged set that focusses solely on hitrating, and that you swap in right before the soulshatter.

An affliction warlock needs a full 6% hit for his DoTs to be capped (5% if you regularly have a draenei in your group). The suppression talent is incerdibly helpful here, as it has been noted repeatedly before that there are no really essential alternatives where to put these points.
#2087SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0TangoDigital
Originally Posted by Kobal View Post
While this statement in itself is correct, it should be noted that there are ways to circumvent these issues without sacrificing too many other DPS-Stats for hitrating.

The problem with soulshatter resists can at least be mitigated by having an alternative weapon/ranged set that focusses solely on hitrating, and that you swap in right before the soulshatter.
I believe that swapping weapons out while the Boss turns around to chop your head off can get you killed. Doing the swap "in anticipation" of overaggro will cost you at least some more DPS than a simple soulshatter cast would.

An affliction warlock needs a full 6% hit for his DoTs to be capped (5% if you regularly have a draenei in your group). The suppression talent is incerdibly helpful here, as it has been noted repeatedly before that there are no really essential alternatives where to put these points.
Suppression doesn't hitcap shadowbolt, which in itself makes for more than 40% of your damage (not factoring ISB). Also, as you hitcap via gear you can take those 5 points and apply them to some really useful talents (fel concentration, malediction,...).

This is all sorta moot anyway since a lot of our gear comes with decent hit if you make the right choices. However, if left with the choice between spelldmg/crit/haste gems versus hit I'll always prefer hit unless I'm >=202.
#2088SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0evilhacker
Value of Hit

My problem with 202 as a primary stat goal for hit is that I've found very little difference between being hit capped and raiding with 100-150 hit. I generally raid as 0/21/40 with around a 155 rating. We don't have a moonkin and I rarely have access to an elemental shaman, and yet for the most part, I do not miss against raid bosses.

I assume a large part of it is that in a given fight, I don't cast a significant number of spells. I'm no statistician, but I'd figure you'd have to cast a very large number of spells in order to feel a difference between 10% to hit and 15%. In combat, I don't think I'd notice if 1 out of 20 miss unless I got a streak of misses.

I look at hit like any other stat - it's important and it adds to DPS. Given a choice between adding 1% to hit, 1% to crit, and 1% additional spell damage, I'd probably pick crit.
#2089SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Cronjob
Well at first I thought fire was the new hotness and rolling around doing world pvp it kinda is. I tested the last two nights on Brutallus and shadow wins every time. We had mostly mages on the first night and the second night we had a better mix with two shadow priest but no matter what shadow was winning out.

We had three locks two destro one affliction and it didnt matter whether both the destros went fire or if only one, shadow was winning. The spell rotation we each were using was immo then spam incin.

Anyone else testing out fire?
#2090SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0rochan
I heard the spreadsheet tested out fire.

And evilhacker I'm not gonna sugar-coat it: what you wrote there is pretty stupid and I really hope no one takes your advice. You are just shooting yourself in the foot if you dont hit cap while destro. Hit rating is so strong, overpowered even, because you need much less rating for 1% hit than 1% crit, and spells use a 2 roll system, i.e. you have to hit in order to crit.
#2091SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Cronjob
Yeah Rochan the spreadsheet indicates fire should win out but thats not what we saw lastnight on Brut. We were even a lock short which would boost our DPS even more as shadow because ISB would be up more. But even with just me running shadow while the other destro lock did fire, I would win out.

Was hoping others were testing this out. I even went as far as removing soulfrost in favor of pure +40 spell damage on my weapon.
#2092SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Mearis
Originally Posted by evilhacker View Post
My problem with 202 as a primary stat goal for hit is that I've found very little difference between being hit capped and raiding with 100-150 hit. I generally raid as 0/21/40 with around a 155 rating. We don't have a moonkin and I rarely have access to an elemental shaman, and yet for the most part, I do not miss against raid bosses.

I assume a large part of it is that in a given fight, I don't cast a significant number of spells. I'm no statistician, but I'd figure you'd have to cast a very large number of spells in order to feel a difference between 10% to hit and 15%. In combat, I don't think I'd notice if 1 out of 20 miss unless I got a streak of misses.

I look at hit like any other stat - it's important and it adds to DPS. Given a choice between adding 1% to hit, 1% to crit, and 1% additional spell damage, I'd probably pick crit.
My problem with this post is that you are wrong.
#2093SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0 Nurru
Originally Posted by evilhacker View Post
My problem with 202 as a primary stat goal for hit is that I've found very little difference between being hit capped and raiding with 100-150 hit. I generally raid as 0/21/40 with around a 155 rating. We don't have a moonkin and I rarely have access to an elemental shaman, and yet for the most part, I do not miss against raid bosses.

I assume a large part of it is that in a given fight, I don't cast a significant number of spells. I'm no statistician, but I'd figure you'd have to cast a very large number of spells in order to feel a difference between 10% to hit and 15%. In combat, I don't think I'd notice if 1 out of 20 miss unless I got a streak of misses.

I look at hit like any other stat - it's important and it adds to DPS. Given a choice between adding 1% to hit, 1% to crit, and 1% additional spell damage, I'd probably pick crit.
Everything about this post is wrong. Please stop.
#2094SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Necrostar
Originally Posted by evilhacker View Post
My problem with 202 as a primary stat goal for hit is that I've found very little difference between being hit capped and raiding with 100-150 hit. I generally raid as 0/21/40 with around a 155 rating. We don't have a moonkin and I rarely have access to an elemental shaman, and yet for the most part, I do not miss against raid bosses.

I assume a large part of it is that in a given fight, I don't cast a significant number of spells. I'm no statistician, but I'd figure you'd have to cast a very large number of spells in order to feel a difference between 10% to hit and 15%. In combat, I don't think I'd notice if 1 out of 20 miss unless I got a streak of misses.

I look at hit like any other stat - it's important and it adds to DPS. Given a choice between adding 1% to hit, 1% to crit, and 1% additional spell damage, I'd probably pick crit.
HIT > FAILED logic
#2095SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Kobal
Originally Posted by TangoDigital View Post
I believe that swapping weapons out while the Boss turns around to chop your head off can get you killed. Doing the swap "in anticipation" of overaggro will cost you at least some more DPS than a simple soulshatter cast would.
Waiting with Soulshatter until you actually do pull agrro is very suicidal in my book. Not only that some bossses need to be positioned very precisely, there is just so much that can go unnecessarily wrong with this practice.

Originally Posted by TangoDigital View Post
Suppression doesn't hitcap shadowbolt, which in itself makes for more than 40% of your damage (not factoring ISB).
I never said hitrating was worthless, only worth less (sorry for the pun). I am sure you agree that if hitrating only affects 40% of your damage, it should be worth only 40% of what it would be worth if it would affect 100% of your damage, don't you?

Originally Posted by TangoDigital View Post
Also, as you hitcap via gear you can take those 5 points and apply them to some really useful talents (fel concentration, malediction,...).
Amongst the first three tiers (= 15 points) of the affliction tree, there are only 9 points that are mandatory for an affliction warlock (in my humble opinion).
5/5 Improved Corruption
2/2 Improved Lifetap
2/2 Improved Drain Soul

The remaining talents are nice little gimmicks, but in no way necessary for a raiding warlock. People call these "filler". So putting 5 of those 6 points into suppression will not cost you any useful talent.

Originally Posted by TangoDigital View Post
However, if left with the choice between spelldmg/crit/haste gems versus hit I'll always prefer hit unless I'm >=202.
This is personal preference then. Should I ever have to spec affliction myself, I would follow the advice of my spreadsheet and value hitrating about equal to spelldamage.
#2096SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0rochan
Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
Yeah Rochan the spreadsheet indicates fire should win out but thats not what we saw lastnight on Brut. We were even a lock short which would boost our DPS even more as shadow because ISB would be up more. But even with just me running shadow while the other destro lock did fire, I would win out.

Was hoping others were testing this out. I even went as far as removing soulfrost in favor of pure +40 spell damage on my weapon.
Yeah the spreadsheet may say fire does more damage but in practice you'll get fucked over by Immolates wearing off/casting the wrong spell/mages forgetting about scorch/mistiming a lifetap/immolate etc. With shorter spells (immolate/IC), lag will have more of an effect. You may think you Quartz it perfectly, but there's always a little delay.

There are just a lot more things that can go wrong with fire vs pure spamming one button (shadowbolt) playstyle. With practice & perfect play the specs will probably be equal, but why go through all the extra hassle, and you don't even buff the other shadow users.
#2097SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Thebeefe
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Timbal's is better than Icon, assuming you always have a DoT on your target.

Timbal's proc does not eat imp SB, and its damage is affected by it.

Can you elaborate on this?
#2098SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0witchedwiz
about timbal's proc... do those mini shadow bolt consume ImpSB? or are they affected by it?
Currently our raid is most likely 1-2 spriest, 3 (few times 2, but no lower then 2.. oftern it's rather 4 destro lock :P.. so 3 as a midline value) destru lock, 1 affli lock..
If timbal's proc consumes ISB, then it's pretty much worthless since the destru lock would have to compensate for spriest (no isb refresh)+ afflilock (low ISB refresh) + timbal's x3 (no ISB refresh), thus making it pretty useless since it would make pretty much hellish to mantain ISB up..
any help? :P (haven't dropped it so far, so i can't test firsthand..)
#2099SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0clavarnway
Originally Posted by witchedwiz View Post
about timbal's proc... do those mini shadow bolt consume ImpSB? or are they affected by it?
Currently our raid is most likely 1-2 spriest, 3 (few times 2, but no lower then 2.. oftern it's rather 4 destro lock :P.. so 3 as a midline value) destru lock, 1 affli lock..
If timbal's proc consumes ISB, then it's pretty much worthless since the destru lock would have to compensate for spriest (no isb refresh)+ afflilock (low ISB refresh) + timbal's x3 (no ISB refresh), thus making it pretty useless since it would make pretty much hellish to mantain ISB up..
any help? :P (haven't dropped it so far, so i can't test firsthand..)
This was posted on the same page...scroll up.

Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Timbal's is better than Icon, assuming you always have a DoT on your target.

Timbal's proc does not eat imp SB, and its damage is affected by it.
#2100SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0witchedwiz
Originally Posted by clavarnway View Post
This was posted on the same page...scroll up.
didn't notice it, my bad :/
thanks for answering tough.
#2101SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by evilhacker View Post
I look at hit like any other stat - it's important and it adds to DPS. Given a choice between adding 1% to hit, 1% to crit, and 1% additional spell damage, I'd probably pick crit.
This is absolutely right, I'd pick 1% crit over 1% hit too, for 0/21/40

Except rating doesn't work like that.

12.6 hit rating = 1% hit
22.1 crit rating = 1% crit

You need almost twice rating to obtain the "same" effect. (well, not same, but comparable)

Obtaining hit chance isn't more effective, but obtaining hit rating is.
#2102SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0galzohar
Yes 1% hit is already not far off from 1% crit, and costs a lot less in itemization (requires a lot less rating), resulting in hit being much better for destruction warlocks to the point where it's absolutely silly to not cap it with any realistic gear setup (at least since the introduction of hit gems quite a long time ago). If you don't feel the difference of having more hit, you'll even more not feel the difference of having more spell damage or crit. The average DPS is there, and while it has variance, it doesn't matter when it comes to choosing the stats, as the randomness can help you just as much as it can hurt you.

Keep in mind that a few extra %s to your DPS will not be incredibly noticeable, but there's no reason not to deal those few % extra DPS if you're capable of doing so. At the end how well you play will have a much more significant effect.

I wouldn't bring "difficult to play" as an argument against fire. Since I don't think there's something wrong with the spreadsheet, if it tells you fire should be better than the fire warlocks simply needs to play better, not spec to something easier. Of course for some people WoW is just too hard of a game, tell them to go play checkers or something
#2103SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Kimmee
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
I wouldn't bring "difficult to play" as an argument against fire. Since I don't think there's something wrong with the spreadsheet, if it tells you fire should be better than the fire warlocks simply needs to play better, not spec to something easier. Of course for some people WoW is just too hard of a game, tell them to go play checkers or something
I'm assuming the spreadsheet is going to calculate Immolate uptime as 100% (ideal), where in practice it won't always line up with your Incinerate casts perfectly to allow you to keep it up 100% of the time. Sometimes it will be down for 1 second or so while you finish out an Incinerate cast and there isn't anything anyone can do about that really (though arguably careful timing of Life Taps can help reduce these occurrences). So that could account for differences between spreadsheet predictions and actual outcomes. Also as previously mentioned, mages being bad and not keeping scorch up will make a difference as well.
#2104SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
cynics
Originally Posted by evilhacker View Post
I look at hit like any other stat - it's important and it adds to DPS. Given a choice between adding 1% to hit, 1% to crit, and 1% additional spell damage, I'd probably pick crit.
Yes, this is a flame

You are a terribad if you are picking crit over hit, haste, or dmg, as a destro lock raiding SSC/TK/MH/BT/SW.

Edit: in addition to this hit is a cheaper stat to get 1% so that means you are allocating those points elsewhere.

Last edited by cynics : 03/28/08 at 2:54 PM.
#2105SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Vlar
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Go back to the main tab, spec yourself destruction and enter your fully buffed stats to get your own DPS. Choose ISB model to "Raid ISB". Write down your DPS (on paper or in a different cell) and go to the ISB tab. Look at the ISB uptime and multiply it by 1/5 of the total shadow DPS in your raid (not including yourself - as your own ISB DPS is already counted). Add that DPS to the personal DPS you got (no, that's not really how much DPS you bring to the raid, but the ISB DPS that doesn't actually belong to you will get reduced anyway in a second).

Spec yourself fire destruction and repeat the process. Still add to your personal DPS the ISB DPS! (or reduce it from the shadow DPS result...). Write down those numbers.

Grats! Now you see how much DPS you will gain/lose by swapping to fire and back (by deducting the 1st number you calculated from the 2nd one - negative would be DPS decrease to go fire destro and positive would be an increase for fire destro. You probably want to try it for more than 1 possible raid makeup, especially if your guild's makeups vary and especially if you got close results for fire and shadow.
Why would you add the ISB DPS to the Fire spec?

This is DPS you are not providing to the raid. Shouldn't you subtract that amount from the Fire DPS because this is DPS that you are taking away from the raid by specc'ing fire?
#2106SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0galzohar
Change in DPS = Shadow spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire - fire spec personal DPS

Wether you calculate

(Shadow spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow) - (raid ISB DPS as fire + fire spec personal DPS)
or calculate
(Shadow spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire) - fire spec personal DPS

You would get the same results. That's why I said add the rest-of-raid ISB DPS to the fire spec's DPS as you also added that DPS to the shadow spec while that DPS would've been done even if you weren't specced shadow.


1% crit is generally > 1% hit (by a little). There's nothing stupid by taking 1% crit over 1% hit. However 1 crit rating is far inferior to 1 hit rating if you're under the hit cap due to the rating system, which is why hit rating is incredibly powerful - so much that you should generally be capped with any gearset that maximizes destruction DPS (affliction is not the same as it gains slightly more dps from 1 spell damage than 1 hit rating, although due to how little it gains from crit you will end up choosing dmg/hit item and end up close to the hit cap anyway and at a certain gear level be hit capped without even trying - but affliction has no reason to purposely cap hit as it's not as incredibly powerful as it is for destruction). Don't flame about things you don't know.
#2107SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Tornwings
justa quick question, but can anyone link me the spreadsheet?
#2108SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Vlar
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Change in DPS = Shadow spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire - fire spec personal DPS

Wether you calculate

(Shadow spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow) - (raid ISB DPS as fire + fire spec personal DPS)
or calculate
(Shadow spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire) - fire spec personal DPS

You would get the same results. That's why I said add the rest-of-raid ISB DPS to the fire spec's DPS as you also added that DPS to the shadow spec while that DPS would've been done even if you weren't specced shadow.
Ok, but you are still calculating it incorrectly.

it should be

(Shadow spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow) - (fire spec personal DPS - (raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire))

because not only are you changing your personal dps, you are also reducing the raid ISB DPS by the lack of your ISBs. You cannot ADD ISB dps to fire, because fire shows no gain and does not give any benefit to raid ISB DPS.
#2109SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0rakeling
i apologize if this was already covered, but is CoR a good idea on Gruul? do any of his special abilities put him in the same category as bosses who cleave and mortal strike? thanks
#2110SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Morwen
Originally Posted by Vlar View Post
Ok, but you are still calculating it incorrectly.

it should be

(Shadow spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow) - (fire spec personal DPS - (raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire))

because not only are you changing your personal dps, you are also reducing the raid ISB DPS by the lack of your ISBs. You cannot ADD ISB dps to fire, because fire shows no gain and does not give any benefit to raid ISB DPS.
I'm not sure what to make of that, but a sanity check for a calculation of a difference is that there's an even number of terms in the expression.
#2111SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0galzohar
Originally Posted by Vlar View Post
Ok, but you are still calculating it incorrectly.

it should be

(Shadow spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow) - (fire spec personal DPS - (raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire))

because not only are you changing your personal dps, you are also reducing the raid ISB DPS by the lack of your ISBs. You cannot ADD ISB dps to fire, because fire shows no gain and does not give any benefit to raid ISB DPS.
Re-ordering your formula gives:

Shadow spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow - fire spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire

= Shadow spec personal DPS + 2Xraid ISB DPS as shadow - fire spec personal DPS - raid ISB DPS as fire

As you can see your formula is incorrect due to counting raid ISB DPS as shadow twice.

The correct formula for DPS difference from changing from fire to shadow would be:
Shadow spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow - fire spec personal DPS - raid ISB DPS as fire
(so no 2Xraid ISB DPS as shadow)
The logic behind it is that you look at the DPS difference which means you don't count raid ISB DPS that would've happen without you towards the shadow spec. Another way to look at it is:
Shadow spec personal DPS + (raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire) - fire spec personal DPS
(brackets not needed, just for clarification)

All the (correct) formulas I posted are the exact same thing only with different ordering of elements hoping people understand at least one of them and realize it's equivalent to all the others.
#2112SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Suggestive
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Re-ordering your formula gives:

Shadow spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow - fire spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire

= Shadow spec personal DPS + 2Xraid ISB DPS as shadow - fire spec personal DPS - raid ISB DPS as fire

As you can see your formula is incorrect due to counting raid ISB DPS as shadow twice.

The correct formula for DPS difference from changing from fire to shadow would be:
Shadow spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow - fire spec personal DPS - raid ISB DPS as fire
(so no 2Xraid ISB DPS as shadow)
The logic behind it is that you look at the DPS difference which means you don't count raid ISB DPS that would've happen without you towards the shadow spec. Another way to look at it is:
Shadow spec personal DPS + (raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire) - fire spec personal DPS
(brackets not needed, just for clarification)

All the (correct) formulas I posted are the exact same thing only with different ordering of elements hoping people understand at least one of them and realize it's equivalent to all the others.
Its probably the lack of brackets throwing people off. I had to stare at that for a minute to get it.
#2113SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Vlar
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Re-ordering your formula gives:

Shadow spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow - fire spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire

= Shadow spec personal DPS + 2Xraid ISB DPS as shadow - fire spec personal DPS - raid ISB DPS as fire

As you can see your formula is incorrect due to counting raid ISB DPS as shadow twice.

The correct formula for DPS difference from changing from fire to shadow would be:
Shadow spec personal DPS + raid ISB DPS as shadow - fire spec personal DPS - raid ISB DPS as fire
(so no 2Xraid ISB DPS as shadow)
The logic behind it is that you look at the DPS difference which means you don't count raid ISB DPS that would've happen without you towards the shadow spec. Another way to look at it is:
Shadow spec personal DPS + (raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire) - fire spec personal DPS
(brackets not needed, just for clarification)

All the (correct) formulas I posted are the exact same thing only with different ordering of elements hoping people understand at least one of them and realize it's equivalent to all the others.
I admit I was incorrect, it should be

(Shadow spec personal DPS + [raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire]) - (fire spec personal DPS - [raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire])

Edit: Looking at my own, I believe I see where I was wrong, since you can you could reorder this as

Shadow DPS + Shadow ISB - Fire DPS - Fire ISB

Edit 2: Cutting it down to look less like an ass

Last edited by Vlar : 03/28/08 at 4:28 PM.
#2114SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0LockApologist
Originally Posted by Kimmee View Post
I'm assuming the spreadsheet is going to calculate Immolate uptime as 100% (ideal), where in practice it won't always line up with your Incinerate casts perfectly to allow you to keep it up 100% of the time. Sometimes it will be down for 1 second or so while you finish out an Incinerate cast and there isn't anything anyone can do about that really (though arguably careful timing of Life Taps can help reduce these occurrences). So that could account for differences between spreadsheet predictions and actual outcomes. Also as previously mentioned, mages being bad and not keeping scorch up will make a difference as well.
That's what the 'Dot Gap' field is for. I have mine set for 2 seconds, as I almost always squeeze in 7 Incinerates (results in last leaving my hands as Immo drops [still gets dmg buff, as dmg is calculated when spell fires rather than hits], giving ~1.4 seconds to reapply Immo). Additionally, we currently raid with 2 fire locks, and 3-4 mages, thus scorch and Immo have damn near 100% uptime, even if my personal Immo is 95% or whatever.
#2115SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0LockApologist
Originally Posted by Vlar View Post
I admit I was incorrect, it should be

(Shadow spec personal DPS + [raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire]) - (fire spec personal DPS - [raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire])

Edit: Looking at my own, I believe I see where I was wrong, since you can you could reorder this as

Shadow DPS + Shadow ISB - Fire DPS - Fire ISB

Edit 2: Cutting it down to look less like an ass
This is still wrong.

Combining terms, your formula gives:

= Shadow spec personal DPS + 2x [raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire] - fire spec personal DPS

you've just inflated the difference between the two specs by a factor of 2.

Galozhar's formula is correct. The raid will still have ISB dps with or without you. So, you have to factor the raid ISB dps w/o you from the raid ISB dps with you (i.e. find your contribution to ISB uptime, and thus raid ISB dps).
#2116SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
galzohar
Yeah the spreadsheet far from assumes 100% DoT uptime. Set the dot-gap time to be whatever you think is reasonable. So that's definitely not a place where "theorycraft fails the reality test".

The exact DoT-gap will depend on your haste but it should generally be quite lower than 2s, making the spreadsheet's 2s as an overestimation meaning the spreadsheet actually declares *lower* DPS than you should expect if you play properly.

Last edited by galzohar : 03/28/08 at 4:54 PM.
#2117SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Morwen
Originally Posted by LockApologist View Post
That's what the 'Dot Gap' field is for. I have mine set for 2 seconds, as I almost always squeeze in 7 Incinerates (results in last leaving my hands as Immo drops [still gets dmg buff, as dmg is calculated when spell fires rather than hits], giving ~1.4 seconds to reapply Immo). Additionally, we currently raid with 2 fire locks, and 3-4 mages, thus scorch and Immo have damn near 100% uptime, even if my personal Immo is 95% or whatever.
The casting cycle is definitely something to be considered, which the spreadsheet doesn't model. You're in the position of having almost exactly the right amount of haste (about 100 rating after accounting for casting lag) to get off the 7th incinerate in the cycle. For anyone who is the sole immolate provider in the raid, having less haste will nearly always put them in an awkward position after the 6th incinerate.
#2118SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0LockApologist
Originally Posted by Morwen View Post
The casting cycle is definitely something to be considered, which the spreadsheet doesn't model. You're in the position of having almost exactly the right amount of haste (about 100 rating after accounting for casting lag) to get off the 7th incinerate in the cycle. For anyone who is the sole immolate provider in the raid, having less haste will nearly always put them in an awkward position after the 6th incinerate.
Very true. I had been considering this recently when I was looking at how the cast cycle lined up for using the OOM time LT option. It gives a LT time of something like 24.78 seconds. Well, clearly that doesn't fit very well into any rotation with Immo/Incinerate, which are rigid around the 15 second Immo uptime.

But, regardless if you only go to 6, you are left with the option of:

a) Immo, Incinx6, LT
b) Immo, Incinx6, Incin w/o Immo
c) Immo, Incinx6, conflag/clip Immo

if you choose a), any haste you have is pretty much wasted, as you are in the same cast timeline as someone who has no haste.

Personally, I typically alternate a), b), with occasional double LT.
#2119SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0galzohar
With 5% haste on gear you have exactly 7 incinerates per immolate. In reality you'll need a little more haste than that due to losing a few fractions of a second every cast even with the new casting system.

With 0% haste on gear 6Xincinerate+(optional tap)+immo would work exactly right, with immo landing a few fractions of a second (due to lost time between casts) after it wears off if you don't life tap, and 1.5s after if you do, so the average DoT gap is 1.5*(average # of lifetaps / number of immolates) which is always lower than 1.5s.

With any more haste you have to lifetap every rotation which could, in most (but not all) group setups/fight lengths, make you have more mana than you need, which is the only way you would deal less DPS than expected.

If you have your haste higher enough than 5% to reliably get 7 incinerates between immolates you no longer have to lifetap to make the rotation work, and your DoT-gap will go up to about 1.5*(1 + average # of lifetaps / number of immolates) which is between 1.5 and 3 seconds. This number goes down a little as haste increases (even with 5% haste it would be slightly lower since GCDs are shortened by haste as well but this is close enough to get the idea through).

As long as your rotation is working (no incinerates without immolate and no leftover mana at the end of the fight) and know what DoT-gap to enter to the spreadsheet, and as long as you play properly, I don't see how you should get less DPS than theorycrafted.
#2120SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Vlar
Originally Posted by LockApologist View Post
This is still wrong.

Combining terms, your formula gives:

= Shadow spec personal DPS + 2x [raid ISB DPS as shadow - raid ISB DPS as fire] - fire spec personal DPS

you've just inflated the difference between the two specs by a factor of 2.

Galozhar's formula is correct. The raid will still have ISB dps with or without you. So, you have to factor the raid ISB dps w/o you from the raid ISB dps with you (i.e. find your contribution to ISB uptime, and thus raid ISB dps).
Your right. I need to stop responding right as I am going somewhere, I don't think about the posts as much as I should

Last edited by Vlar : 03/28/08 at 5:51 PM.
#2121SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by cynics View Post
Yes, this is a flame

You are a terribad if you are picking crit over hit, haste, or dmg, as a destro lock raiding SSC/TK/MH/BT/SW.

Edit: in addition to this hit is a cheaper stat to get 1% so that means you are allocating those points elsewhere.
Please don't flame. In addition, you're wrong.

Hit rating is better _because_ it is a cheaper stat, not in addition to it.

Let's keep this thread constructive and friendly, shall we?
#2122SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
cynics
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Please don't flame. In addition, you're wrong.

Hit rating is better _because_ it is a cheaper stat, not in addition to it.

Let's keep this thread constructive and friendly, shall we?
i am not wrong!

if we are talking about the best overall % for any of the following stats (hit, crit, haste, dmg) then until you are hit capped, hit is by far the best stat for increasing DPS. Also with how current itemization points are allocated there isn't a item with enough crit to make up for hit when you aren't hit capped.

Choosing 1% crit over 1% hit when you are not hit capped is wrong. if we go into that a bit further there might be a point at which it would be a good idea to get a crit item over a hit item (when you aren't hit capped) but there are very few if any items with those kind of points allocated like that.

"Hit rating is better _because_ it is a cheaper stat, not in addition to it."

What are you talking about reread my post. i said that hit is allocated better? let me clarify read below.

Originally Posted by cynics View Post
Yes, this is a flame

You are a terribad if you are picking crit over hit, haste, or dmg, as a destro lock raiding SSC/TK/MH/BT/SW.

Edit: in addition to what i said above ^, hit is a cheaper stat to get 1% so that means you are allocating those points elsewhere.
we good now?

i agree that flaming is lame but his post was just ignorant, but i shouldn't have got all emo, i a noob aswell; thanks calling me out i did deserve it.

Last edited by cynics : 03/28/08 at 7:00 PM.
#2123SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Thebeefe
Anyone able to elaborate on how the Mgt Heroic trinket is better than the Icon?
#2124SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0galzohar
You're still wrong. While 1 hit rating is better than 1 crit rating, 1% hit is NOT better than 1% crit. They're close with 1% crit being a bit better, making your "taking 1% crit over 1% hit when not hit capped is very bad" comment completely wrong. You're right that hit is cheaper though - that's the only reason 1 hit rating is better than 1 crit rating. But 1% crit is a little better than 1% hit.

This is all regarding if you're under the hit cap, obviously, as hit becomes much less useful once you're capped (practically as good as the spell damage you could gain by swapping out hit elsewhere).
#2125SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
rochan
You are all wrong.

The relationship of 1% hit vs 1% crit varies with levels of gear. As you gain more crit, 1% hit becomes more valuable and passes 1% crit.

At SWP gear levels, losing 1% hit will hurt your DPS more than losing 1% crit, thus, 1% hit > 1% crit.

Last edited by rochan : 03/28/08 at 7:20 PM.
#2126SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0cynics
Originally Posted by Thebeefe View Post
Anyone able to elaborate on how the Mgt Heroic trinket is better than the Icon?
For your spec it is hands down better then Quagmire's Eye it has 10% proc rate with a 30% crit rate the internal cooldown is 15 seconds DPS is ~25. In addition to this i think it gets affected by debuffs.

As far as if it is better then the Icon yes it is the icon is ~15 dps on use. There was a post on the official forums with a lot more detailed information than what i'm giving you.

Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
You're still wrong. While 1 hit rating is better than 1 crit rating, 1% hit is NOT better than 1% crit. They're close with 1% crit being a bit better, making your "taking 1% crit over 1% hit when not hit capped is very bad" comment completely wrong. You're right that hit is cheaper though - that's the only reason 1 hit rating is better than 1 crit rating. But 1% crit is a little better than 1% hit.

This is all regarding if you're under the hit cap, obviously, as hit becomes much less useful once you're capped (practically as good as the spell damage you could gain by swapping out hit elsewhere).
You need to read my posts better i SAID until you get hit capped 1% hit is always better than 1% crit.

Getting to the hit cap for raiding is the best way to increase your DPS hands down. Also if you are smart you would swap out gear for trash as you don't need 16% hit.

You are right that if you are looking at the allocation of points it takes to get 1% crit vs 1% hit then yes crit is worth more in terns of an item budget but items with % were taken out before Naxx in replace of +points, so why are we talking in percentages.
#2127SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Arnath
Timbal's Focusing Crystal (copied from a post on Wowhead):
10% proc and appears to have an internal cooldown of about 15sec--had multiple procs 17sec apart, nothing below that.
Can crit (appears to be based on personal crit%) but does not benefit from ruin--gets 150%.
Can proc from periodic damage from dots and channeled spells (e.g., drain life).
Procs are listed as "Shadow Bolt" in combat log and the animation shares the s.bolt graphic. Do not have to be facing the target for it to hit them and crits dont generate ISBs.
Not sure if it consumes ISB charges (guessing it will since it is a direct damage shadow spell).

Update: Trinket Evaluation for Raid Affliction
1) Calculate ticks per sec (affliction will have 4 ticks/3sec with immo/SL/UA/Corr--No curse)
2) Proc delay:
1/ (tick/sec * proc rate) + internal CD = 1/ (1.33*0.1) + 15 = 22.5sec per proc
3) Find average proc dmg (shadow dmg proc benefits from debuffs)--CoS boosted it above the listed dmg range so I assume all shadow debuffs work:
avg hit * cos * SW * misery * crit rate (20% for aff) * ISB uptime (50%) =
380 *1.13 * 1.1* 1.05 * (1+0.20*0.5) * (1+ 0.20*0.5) = 600
4) Trinket proc dps for an affliction lock in raid= 600/22.5 = 26.7dps
5) Equivalent +dmg: DMG Spreadsheet lists 0.76dps/1dmg, so 26.7/0.76 = 35 dmg, so the trinket is worth about 79dmg total for an affliction lock in raid setting under best case scenario.
This calculation ignores the fact that it can be resisted, but the trinket benefits from your +hit (not Suppression though) so multiply his damage value by whatever your chance to hit is. Regardless, it's worth 70+ damage and the Icon is only worth 67.
EDIT: An important consequence of the fact that it benefits from shadow damage buffs is that it's probably only better than the Icon in a raid situation (where you'll have all of CoS, Misery, Shadow Weaving, etc. up on the target).

In regards to all the other people arguing that 1% hit is > 1% crit, this continues to not be true no matter how many times you say it. Assuming you're not at the hit cap, hit rating is better than crit rating point for point. However, 1% of crit is better than 1% of hit regardless of gear level (again, assuming you're not hit capped). Look at the spreadsheet and plug in numbers if you don't believe this.
#2128SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Edhrin
Omg it's the second time I edit this post and it comes too late since someone posted it before me :p

Sorry about that.

Last edited by Edhrin : 03/28/08 at 8:29 PM.
#2129SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0 frmorrison
The "procs" from trinket such as Timbal's and lightning capacitor and the Exalted SSC necklace while being a Scryers both use your spell hit and spell crit, so that is something else to take into account when looking at these items.


It is true 1% to crit is better than 1% to hit, however the large difference in rating will alway make 1 spell hit > 1 spell crit (until 202 hit rating).
#2130SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0cynics
Originally Posted by Arnath View Post
In regards to all the other people arguing that 1% hit is > 1% crit, this continues to not be true no matter how many times you say it. Assuming you're not at the hit cap, hit rating is better than crit rating point for point. However, 1% of crit is better than 1% of hit regardless of gear level (again, assuming you're not hit capped). Look at the spreadsheet and plug in numbers if you don't believe this.
i am not sure what you are doing on the spreadsheet but see below.
1% hit = 13 hit rating
1% crit = 22 crit rating

DPS wise 1% hit is > 1% crit. (Edit: until you are hit capped) if you need me to save my sheet for you so u can see spec and gear i can do that, but im in mid T6 gear.

http://www.societymadehim.com/stuff/wrong.JPG
#2131SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0 frmorrison
Originally Posted by cynics View Post
1% hit = 13 hit rating
1% crit = 22 crit rating

http://www.societymadehim.com/stuff/wrong.JPG
Nice attempt, but 1 hit is 12.61 and 1 crit is 22.08 if you want to be exact, which is why your "wrong" SS is wrong .
#2132SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by cynics View Post
i am not sure what you are doing on the spreadsheet but see below.
1% hit = 13 hit rating
1% crit = 22 crit rating

DPS wise 1% hit is > 1% crit. (Edit: until you are hit capped) if you need me to save my sheet for you so u can see spec and gear i can do that, but im in mid T6 gear.

http://www.societymadehim.com/stuff/wrong.JPG
I suggest reading the compendium before posting.

I also suggest doing research before posting, to everyone, in general. This back and forth arguing, unbacked by sheets and proof, is getting us nowhere.

As for the hit vs crit (we're still talking 0/21/40 here):

example given: 90% hit chance (absurdly low). bolts hit for 2000 on average.

Since a crit is double damage and then some because of ISB, you can estimate crits as anywhere between 200-300% damage (since it includes dots). I'll use 220% per crit, or 4400 (2400 bonus damage per crit)

1% hit will make one of 100 bolts hit (gain over 10k bolts: 200k damage)
1% crit will make one the bolts that hit, crit (gain over 10k bolts: 9k hits, so 90 extra crits, 90x2400=216k damage)

This is not counting Soul Shatter, which is a good argument for maxing hit, but we were arguing for raw dps.

That is with 90% hit which is less than 100 hit rating, an absurdly low amount. I don't see how haste, crit or +damage would reasonably influence the outcome. Stack more hit and you'll see even more damage from increasing crit. The break even point is somewhere at 30-40 hit rating (assuming 220% crits).

If you want a more detailed overview, feel free to use the spreadsheet, you'll reach the same conclusion. If I'm wrong, I'll accept that, but I'll need to see proof.


To the person asking about Gruul: CoR is a must. Especially during the earlier phases when Gruul hits like a sissy, tanks are rage starved. If you like, you can remove it near the end, if tanks are getting pummeled bad. With the gear currently available, it's hardly an issue.
#2133SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
galzohar
1% hit gives slightly more than 1% personal DPS and 1% crit gives slightly less than 1% DPS but also gives ISB uptime. At any realistic gear level and raid setup the ISB uptime would more than make up for it if you look at the spreadsheet. While gear levels and raid setups where 1% hit could beat 1% crit those simply don't really happen in the real game.

Your speradsheet doesn't seem to take into account raid ISB DPS and already shows hit very close to crit. Adding raid ISB DPS would be enough to push crit a little over hit when you comapre 1% of each, which is what I've been saying for the last couple pages.


CoR on gruul at the start is always a good thing. The damage increase from CoR gets multiplied with the grows so sooner or later you should replace it with a different curse. The better geared your raid is the longer you can keep it up, but with every raid it should be up for some portion of the fight.

Last edited by galzohar : 03/29/08 at 9:59 AM.
#2134SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Vlar
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
If you want a more detailed overview, feel free to use the spreadsheet, you'll reach the same conclusion. If I'm wrong, I'll accept that, but I'll need to see proof.

To the person asking about Gruul: CoR is a must. Especially during the earlier phases when Gruul hits like a sissy, tanks are rage starved. If you like, you can remove it near the end, if tanks are getting pummeled bad. With the gear currently available, it's hardly an issue.
Um, wasn't the link he posted screen shots of the comparison using the spreadsheet?

But yes, thanks to the new badge gear, it is much easier to get away with tossing CoR on Gruul. Prior to that it was only really advisable for one cast. (while you were still learning the fight and didn't have much gear)
#2135SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Goedel
Arelenda, what you left out is that, just as the value of crit increases with hit and damage, the value of hit also increases with crit (and everything else). Continuing with your example numbers (starting with a 90% hit chance, 220% damage per crit, bolts hitting for 2000 on *non-crit* average), let's also assume a starting crit chance of 30%.

1% hit then, as you say, adds an average of 1 hit per 100 bolts, but, the part you omitted, that 1 hit has a 30% chance of being a crit. So, from adding 1% hit, the gain over 10k bolts (100 more hits) is not 200k damage (100 regular hits) but 272k damage (70 regular hits, 30 crits).

Now, it may still be that the raid dps gain from Improved Shadow Bolt achieved by increasing the % of hits that crit outweighs this, as galzohar says, but let's be clear about how much it needs to outweigh.
#2136SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Goedel View Post
Arelenda, what you left out is that, just as the value of crit increases with hit and damage, the value of hit also increases with crit (and everything else). Continuing with your example numbers (starting with a 90% hit chance, 220% damage per crit, bolts hitting for 2000 on *non-crit* average), let's also assume a starting crit chance of 30%.

1% hit then, as you say, adds an average of 1 hit per 100 bolts, but, the part you omitted, that 1 hit has a 30% chance of being a crit. So, from adding 1% hit, the gain over 10k bolts (100 more hits) is not 200k damage (100 regular hits) but 272k damage (70 regular hits, 30 crits).

Now, it may still be that the raid dps gain from Improved Shadow Bolt achieved by increasing the % of hits that crit outweighs this, as galzohar says, but let's be clear about how much it needs to outweigh.
Good point, I stand corrected.

Giving 25% crit chance (30% crit with 7% hit is rather odd as gear choice) and a bit higher ISB factor shows them as equal.

The spreadsheet screenshot didn't load for me, so I didn't read that part. I think the main premise still holds: the major difference is rating values. The difference shown between crit and hit is way less than the almost double price in ratings.

Last edited by Arelenda : 03/29/08 at 10:44 AM.
#2137SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Vlar
Breakdown of the screenshot:

The first thing was his base stats:

dmg: 1318
shadow: 237
fire: 80
hit: 139
crit: 210

dps: 1690

second part was adding 13 hit rating

dps: 1709

third part was adding 22 crit rating:

dps: 1707

so he gained 2 dps from adding 1% hit instead of 1% crit.
#2138SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0galzohar
Originally Posted by Vlar View Post
Breakdown of the screenshot:

The first thing was his base stats:

dmg: 1318
shadow: 237
fire: 80
hit: 139
crit: 210

dps: 1690

second part was adding 13 hit rating

dps: 1709

third part was adding 22 crit rating:

dps: 1707

so he gained 2 dps from adding 1% hit instead of 1% crit.
But lost quite a bit more than 2 DPS by losing ISB uptime for the raid.

Besides he said it's "completely dumb to take 1% crit over 1% hit" which even if it's a loss of 2 DPS is far from "completely dumb", on top of the fact you're actually gaining dps with 1% crit over 1% hit becuase of ISB.

Obviously if you ignore ISB 1% hit will have an edge over 1% crit.
#2139SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Vlar
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
But lost quite a bit more than 2 DPS by losing ISB uptime for the raid.

Besides he said it's "completely dumb to take 1% crit over 1% hit" which even if it's a loss of 2 DPS is far from "completely dumb", on top of the fact you're actually gaining dps with 1% crit over 1% hit becuase of ISB.

Obviously if you ignore ISB 1% hit will have an edge over 1% crit.
Devils Advocate:

But as said above 1% more hit is also more chances to crit.

/DA

I wonder how much ISB is effected by a 1% in crit on 1 warlock compared to 1% more chances to have the crit.
#2140SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Goedel
Vlar, adding hit for increased ISB uptime is a reasonable "devil's advocate" concern, but the thing is that misses don't consume ISB charges, while non-crit hits do. So while a greater hit chance does increase the chance of getting a crit and thereby applying ISB, it also increases the chance of getting a regular hit and thereby consuming ISB that is already up. This does not mean that adding hit chance lowers ISB uptime (some quick sanity checks at border cases can refute that idea), but it does help explain in fuzzy terms why, if the models are correct, adding crit chance is a more effective way to increase ISB uptime.
#2141SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by cynics View Post
i am not sure what you are doing on the spreadsheet but see below.
1% hit = 13 hit rating
1% crit = 22 crit rating

DPS wise 1% hit is > 1% crit. (Edit: until you are hit capped) if you need me to save my sheet for you so u can see spec and gear i can do that, but im in mid T6 gear.

http://www.societymadehim.com/stuff/wrong.JPG
Can you post results with 12.6 and 22.1 rating? I'll update the compendium with your findings.
#2142SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Vlar
Originally Posted by Goedel View Post
Vlar, adding hit for increased ISB uptime is a reasonable "devil's advocate" concern, but the thing is that misses don't consume ISB charges, while non-crit hits do. So while a greater hit chance does increase the chance of getting a crit and thereby applying ISB, it also increases the chance of getting a regular hit and thereby consuming ISB that is already up. This does not mean that adding hit chance lowers ISB uptime (some quick sanity checks at border cases can refute that idea), but it does help explain in fuzzy terms why, if the models are correct, adding crit chance is a more effective way to increase ISB uptime.
some quick calculations (if I am wrong, feel free to point it out)

Given:

Hit: 90% base
Crit: 25% base
Shadowbolt casts: 100
Damage on hit: 1000
Damage on Crit: 2000

Base:
90 hits, 22.5 of them being crits
Hit Damage: 67500
Crit Damage: 45000
Total: 112500

91% hit, 25% crit:
91 hits, 22.75 of them crits
Hit Damage: 68250
Crit Damage: 45500
Total: 113750

90% hit, 26% crit:
90 hits, 23.4 of them crits
Hit Damage: 66600
Crit Damage: 46800
Total: 113400

Difference between 1% hit and 1% crit:

you gain 350 dmg, 1 more hit and .65 less crits by taking 1% hit over 1% crit

so even then you would have almost exactly the same ISB uptime.
#2143SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0galzohar
Originally Posted by Goedel View Post
Vlar, adding hit for increased ISB uptime is a reasonable "devil's advocate" concern, but the thing is that misses don't consume ISB charges, while non-crit hits do. So while a greater hit chance does increase the chance of getting a crit and thereby applying ISB, it also increases the chance of getting a regular hit and thereby consuming ISB that is already up. This does not mean that adding hit chance lowers ISB uptime (some quick sanity checks at border cases can refute that idea), but it does help explain in fuzzy terms why, if the models are correct, adding crit chance is a more effective way to increase ISB uptime.
It's not beucase misses don't consume, it's simply because if you have, say, 25% crit, 1% hit will be as good as more or less 0.25% crit in terms of ISB uptime. Much less than 1% crit, obviously. Hit and haste (same arguments apply to haste) are much less of an increase to ISB uptime than crit is.

Hit rating though is still a much bigger DPS increase under the hit cap due to its cost. Haste rating, crit rating and spell damage are close enough to eachother to refer to the spreadsheet with your gear and raid composition to tell the difference. But comparing % to %, or 22.1 crit rating to 12.6 hit rating, crit simply comes on top by being equal to more or less equal amounts of spell damage, while 12.6 hit falls a bit lower in spell damage equivalence (how much exactly does depend).

All of this is easy to see on leuler's spreadsheet if you put in the correct stats and realistic raid composition for the ISB model.
#2144SourcePosted on<=2.0.0oscredwin
Question in practicality, how does one get 1% hit(aside from hit rating)? Preferably in some format that can be traded for crit.
#2145SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Thebeefe
Originally Posted by oscredwin View Post
Question in practicality, how does one get 1% hit(aside from hit rating)? Preferably in some format that can be traded for crit.
The talent Supression is the only other way, each point provides 2% +hit for AFFLICTION ONLY. For destruction (Shadow Bolt, Immolate etc) there is no other way other than +hit rating.
#2146SourcePosted on<=2.0.0oscredwin
That's what i thought, but is there any where in the whole wide world (of warcraft) that someone ever makes the trade off of 1% crit vs 1% hit?

More productive area of inquiry, has anyone done testing in how much spelldamage the exalted SSO proc's are worth?
#2147SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Thebeefe
Originally Posted by oscredwin View Post
That's what i thought, but is there any where in the whole wide world (of warcraft) that someone ever makes the trade off of 1% crit vs 1% hit?
Not any more, before 2.0(i think) items were giving a % of crit and hit, not a rating value. At that time you could trade 1% hit for 1% crit directly, nowadays its much more complicated, hence discussions such as this.
#2148SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Akj
Originally Posted by oscredwin View Post
That's what i thought, but is there any where in the whole wide world (of warcraft) that someone ever makes the trade off of 1% crit vs 1% hit?
Only close situation I can think of is a warlock with 14% hit choosing between an elemental shaman, moonkin (2%hit v 2% crit).
#2149SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Arelenda
Most tradeoffs in gear choice do come down to a hit vs crit in certain amounts, so it's not a completely moot point.
#2150SourcePosted on<=2.0.0PSGarak
A question that came to mind: does [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] make Immolate worth casting?
I realize this isn't relevant even to a large class of Affliction warlocks, where immolate is already worth casting. I'm actually on the borderline: with about 350 more shadow than fire, Immolate has a higher DPCT than shadowbolt but according to the spreadsheet the extra fraction of a lifetap actually means it lowers my DPS.
In any case, the more general question is: how much does Timbal's affect Immolate? (a slightly more general question is how does a fourth (or Nth) DoT affect Timbal's, which is relevant to the UA vs Ruin debate.)

So, given a 10% proc rate and a 15s internal cooldown:
Adding Immolate (or a fourth DoT of any kind) adds one tick per three seconds, bringing your expectation of the proc time from
15 + 10*(3/3) = 25
to
15 + 10*(3/4) = 22.5
This decreases the time between procs by 10% exactly, increasing the frequency of procs by 1/9 = 11%. The DPS of the proc, 380/25 = 15.2 (pre-debuffs) base, goes up by 15.2/9 =~ 1.7 (also pre-debuffs).

So Timbal's increases the value of your fourth DoT by 1.7 DPS, scaled by debuffs on the mob.

Note that due to the internal cooldown and the way fractions work, Timbal's gives higher marginal advantage to adding a third DoT and less to adding a fifth. However, most edge cases (immolate and UA vs ruin) deal with adding a fourth DoT.

Last edited by PSGarak : Yesterday at 5:57 PM.
#2151SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Darkstone
Originally Posted by Akj View Post
Only close situation I can think of is a warlock with 14% hit choosing between an elemental shaman, moonkin (2%hit v 2% crit).


Cept the shaman gives 2% crit with the hit too... :P

On the Hit vs Crit ISB uptime argument, I think there's a detail that some of the folks are missing.

If you have a 90% chance to hit, there's a 10% chance to miss.
If you have a 25% chance to crit, there's also a 10% chance to miss.


I think it would take hours of combat simulation to produce documentable solid granite evidence, but 1% to hit (if not capped) is still better for ISB uptime than 1% of crit is, for this reason alone...

Oh, and Hi EJ =)

PS: whomever made/maintains the warlock spreadsheet is my personal hero.

Edit: I suppose that could be mis-read, I don't mean that after the crit the 10% miss is applied specifically to the crit, like it gets its own roll or something.

My understanding (and that shared by folks i've theorycrafted with) is that this is how the attack rolls go:

1) Shadow Bolt Casted
2) Does it crit?
3) Does it hit?
4) Whatever on-hit or on-crit procs you may have like Soul Leech or gear procs.

Correct me if I'm wrong though =)

Last edited by Darkstone : 03/30/08 at 1:57 PM.
#2152SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Arelenda
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
A question that came to mind: does [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] make Immolate worth casting?
I realize this isn't relevant even to a large class of Affliction warlocks, where immolate is already worth casting. I'm actually on the borderline: with about 350 more shadow than fire, Immolate has a higher DPCT than shadowbolt but according to the spreadsheet the extra fraction of a lifetap actually means it lowers my DPS.
In any case, the more general question is: how much does Timbal's affect Immolate? (a slightly more general question is how does a fourth (or Nth) DoT affect Timbal's, which is relevant to the UA vs Ruin debate.)

So, given a 10% proc rate and a 5s internal cooldown:
Adding Immolate (or a fourth DoT of any kind) adds one tick per three seconds, bringing your expectation of the proc time from
15 + 10*(3/3) = 25
to
15 + 10*(3/4) = 22.5
This decreases the time between procs by 10% exactly, increasing the frequency of procs by 1/9 = 11%. The DPS of the proc, 380/25 = 15.2 (pre-debuffs) base, goes up by 15.2/9 =~ 1.7 (also pre-debuffs).

So Timbal's increases the value of your fourth DoT by 1.7 DPS, scaled by debuffs on the mob.

Note that due to the internal cooldown and the way fractions work, Timbal's gives higher marginal advantage to adding a third DoT and less to adding a fifth. However, most edge cases (immolate and UA vs ruin) deal with adding a fourth DoT.
I believe someone mentioning a 15second cooldown on it. Feel free to confirm it for us, though. I'll add it to the compendium.

Last edited by Arelenda : 03/30/08 at 5:20 PM.
#2153SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0galzohar
Originally Posted by Darkstone View Post
Cept the shaman gives 2% crit with the hit too... :P

On the Hit vs Crit ISB uptime argument, I think there's a detail that some of the folks are missing.

If you have a 90% chance to hit, there's a 10% chance to miss.
If you have a 25% chance to crit, there's also a 10% chance to miss.


I think it would take hours of combat simulation to produce documentable solid granite evidence, but 1% to hit (if not capped) is still better for ISB uptime than 1% of crit is, for this reason alone...

Oh, and Hi EJ =)

PS: whomever made/maintains the warlock spreadsheet is my personal hero.

Edit: I suppose that could be mis-read, I don't mean that after the crit the 10% miss is applied specifically to the crit, like it gets its own roll or something.

My understanding (and that shared by folks i've theorycrafted with) is that this is how the attack rolls go:

1) Shadow Bolt Casted
2) Does it crit?
3) Does it hit?
4) Whatever on-hit or on-crit procs you may have like Soul Leech or gear procs.

Correct me if I'm wrong though =)
This order is correct but your conclusion is wrong. Hit does not come even close to crit regarding ISB time increase. Your crits/second will go up significantly more by adding even 1 crit rating over 1 hit rating.
For example on lieuler's spreadsheet adding 30 crit rating would increase ISB uptime by 1.48% while losing 30 hit rating will reduce ISB uptime by 0.33%. It's no surprise as increasing the hits by even more than 2% when you have 25% crit still increases the chance of a certain spell to crit by a bit higher than 0.5%, while increasing chance to crit by 1% would increase chance for a given spell to hit and crit by almost 1%.

Again, % per % crit is clearly better, the only reason hit wins is because of the rating conversions being that much cheaper. And there's a reason they're cheaper otherwise nobody would use that stat.
#2154SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0PSGarak
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
I believe someone mentioning a 15second cooldown on it. Feel free to confirm it for us, though. I'll add it to the compendium.
Sorry, I meant to say 15 seconds. It's the number used in the calculations, I just missed a keystroke in the description. In any case, both the proc rate and cooldown was pulled from wowhead.
#2155SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Vlar
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
This order is correct but your conclusion is wrong. Hit does not come even close to crit regarding ISB time increase. Your crits/second will go up significantly more by adding even 1 crit rating over 1 hit rating.
For example on lieuler's spreadsheet adding 30 crit rating would increase ISB uptime by 1.48% while losing 30 hit rating will reduce ISB uptime by 0.33%. It's no surprise as increasing the hits by even more than 2% when you have 25% crit still increases the chance of a certain spell to crit by a bit higher than 0.5%, while increasing chance to crit by 1% would increase chance for a given spell to hit and crit by almost 1%.

Again, % per % crit is clearly better, the only reason hit wins is because of the rating conversions being that much cheaper. And there's a reason they're cheaper otherwise nobody would use that stat.

So where is my math incorrect? by the numbers I gave, at 25% crit and 90% hit, 1% hit is equal to .35% crit, making less than 1 less crit over 100 casts.

Edit: Why would it roll on crit first? Doesn't it have to hit before it can crit with spells?

Last edited by Vlar : 03/30/08 at 7:45 PM.
#2156SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Roywyn
Hm, is it possible to add a little 2-line comment in the compendium that Mana Potions are the best consumable to use for maximising DPS in a fight where some life taps/dark pacts while standing still are required?

Our warlocks were quite surprised by that, I fetched some quotes from the thread and a link to the spreadsheet, trying to convince them.

Even just a little entry near "Additional tips and tricks" would be enough, just to give that pretty vital info in an otherwise great compendium.
#2157SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0XStoliX
The World of Warcraft Armory

This is my character. My rough unbuffed stats as of now:
Spelldmg: 1097
Hitrating: 111 8.80%
Crit rating: 305 23.38%
Penetration: 44
Haste: 0

Buffed:
Crit: 25.72% (30.72 with devastation)
Hit: 8.8%
Spelldmg: 1330 (adept, bufffood, spelldmg oil fel armor and spirit buff)

Buffed + Ele schaman Draenei:
Crit: 28.72% (32.72% with devastation)
hit: 12.8%
Spelldmg: 1431 (adept, bufffood, spelldmg oil fel armor and spirit buff + totem)


This screenshot was taken a while ago, while doing Anetheron
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...308_205418.jpg

I was in the tankgroup though i was allowed to sacc sukkubus for extra damage.

I usually ride at about 1200 DPS, with a support group i can reach 1300 to a maximum of 1.4 K which was my highest so far, i dont count fights like gorefiend where i can do 1.5 1.6K dps.
As you can see im extremely low on hitrating as i do prefer crit. It seems to give me the better results dps wise, a high ISB uptime for the raid and my DPS is steady and rocking i usually am one of the better dds ranking between 1-3 in the damage done list.

I had about 18K dmg lost due to partial resists on this fight and this is not counting the 8 Shadowbolts that were completely resisted at least this is what recount showed me.

My question is the following, in terms of gems and stat allocation which stat would be ultimately superior for me in terms of pure dps, hit rating or pushing for even more crit rating and ignoring the spelldmg i.e replacing some 4 crit 5 spelldmg gems with 8 crit gems?

Im not very good at theory crafting but i Study chemistry and im pretty good at mathematics so if you have some calculations for me to do that would be awesome

I really appreciate any help.
#2158SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Thanahtos
Originally Posted by XStoliX View Post
The World of Warcraft Armory

This is my character. My rough unbuffed stats as of now:
Spelldmg: 1097
Hitrating: 111 8.80%
Crit rating: 305 23.38%
Penetration: 44
Haste: 0

Buffed:
Crit: 25.72% (30.72 with devastation)
Hit: 8.8%
Spelldmg: 1330 (adept, bufffood, spelldmg oil fel armor and spirit buff)

Buffed + Ele schaman Draenei:
Crit: 28.72% (32.72% with devastation)
hit: 12.8%
Spelldmg: 1431 (adept, bufffood, spelldmg oil fel armor and spirit buff + totem)


This screenshot was taken a while ago, while doing Anetheron
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...308_205418.jpg

I was in the tankgroup though i was allowed to sacc sukkubus for extra damage.

I usually ride at about 1200 DPS, with a support group i can reach 1300 to a maximum of 1.4 K which was my highest so far, i dont count fights like gorefiend where i can do 1.5 1.6K dps.
As you can see im extremely low on hitrating as i do prefer crit. It seems to give me the better results dps wise, a high ISB uptime for the raid and my DPS is steady and rocking i usually am one of the better dds ranking between 1-3 in the damage done list.

I had about 18K dmg lost due to partial resists on this fight and this is not counting the 8 Shadowbolts that were completely resisted at least this is what recount showed me.

My question is the following, in terms of gems and stat allocation which stat would be ultimately superior for me in terms of pure dps, hit rating or pushing for even more crit rating and ignoring the spelldmg i.e replacing some 4 crit 5 spelldmg gems with 8 crit gems?

Im not very good at theory crafting but i Study chemistry and im pretty good at mathematics so if you have some calculations for me to do that would be awesome

I really appreciate any help.
It's funny how many questions can just be answered from using the spreadsheet that Leulier made... It's going to be hit though.
#2159SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
XStoliX
I dont really like the spreadsheet due to alot of reasons, Ive used it and the numbers were way to random and unrealistic thats why i have a strong distaste towards it although it is a handy tool.

Besides the spreadsheet shows me id do about 1600 DPS which never happens =/

Last edited by XStoliX : 03/30/08 at 11:00 PM.
#2160SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by XStoliX View Post
I dont really like the spreadsheet due to alot of reasons, Ive used it and the numbers were way to random and unrealistic thats why i have a strong distaste towards it although it is a handy tool.

Besides the spreadsheet shows me id do about 1600 DPS which never happens =/
Hmm, if you'd read the compendium it'd tell you "cap hit with gems".
#2161SourcePosted on<=2.0.0XStoliX
Arelenda ive read the compendium and i play my WL since BWL :P

The problem with the theorycraft and the hit-rating concept is that its still a subject to the theory of big numbers, which means if i record my data for an infinate amount of time id see the theoretically calculated number of miss% crit% etc,
the truth is that in raiding in any given circumstances this theory becomes obsolete quickly =/ the only other WL that does comparable damage is at 160 hit rating with a tack more spelldmg and less crit. In most encounters i easily do a bit more damage than he does, sure maybe im lucky and im hitting with ISB on the mob most of the time, id have to install shadowseer to check up on that theory. But the interresting thing is how crit% and spelldmg seems more beneficial to me, even though i have 111 hitrating i resist a lot less than my buddy does, sure thats luck based, but even when our resists are on par with each other i do more damage due to stacking more crit.

And im just curious about the math here and the logic, why would i want to get more hitrating if it really doesnt make such a big difference in terms of DPS, i would love to resocket to hit and see how that affects my damage but i want to see the math first =/
#2162SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Gaborn
I would like to know your logic to stack crit. Crit is an statistical stat too and stacking it, based on your logic could not give you the results you want because the number os casts in a fight is too small.

So your logic is flawled and because of that you are wrong.
#2163SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Roywyn View Post
Hm, is it possible to add a little 2-line comment in the compendium that Mana Potions are the best consumable to use for maximising DPS in a fight where some life taps/dark pacts while standing still are required?

Our warlocks were quite surprised by that, I fetched some quotes from the thread and a link to the spreadsheet, trying to convince them.

Even just a little entry near "Additional tips and tricks" would be enough, just to give that pretty vital info in an otherwise great compendium.
Best consumable? as opposed to what? [Destruction Potion]?

Some quick math and working with the sheet showed me that for my gear and spec, [Super Mana Potion] scores about 50% better than a destro pot. The gap becomes smaller when considering Bloodlust/Heroism and high haste rates, but even then mana pots seemed to be better. Note that destro pots combined with Bloodlust/Heroism during any special phase (such as a vulnerability or wild magic or somesuch) can be the better option.

Given the relative low extra dps output from these things (less than 50dps by optimistic estimates), I think that unless you're having major trouble with an enrage, it's safer to skip the potions and have an extra emergency button in the form of a [Super Healing Potion] or [Super Rejuvenation Potion] or a [Mad Alchemist's Potion]. I'll update the compendium when I have some more time.
#2164SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by XStoliX View Post
Arelenda ive read the compendium and i play my WL since BWL :P

The problem with the theorycraft and the hit-rating concept is that its still a subject to the theory of big numbers, which means if i record my data for an infinate amount of time id see the theoretically calculated number of miss% crit% etc,
the truth is that in raiding in any given circumstances this theory becomes obsolete quickly =/ the only other WL that does comparable damage is at 160 hit rating with a tack more spelldmg and less crit. In most encounters i easily do a bit more damage than he does, sure maybe im lucky and im hitting with ISB on the mob most of the time, id have to install shadowseer to check up on that theory. But the interresting thing is how crit% and spelldmg seems more beneficial to me, even though i have 111 hitrating i resist a lot less than my buddy does, sure thats luck based, but even when our resists are on par with each other i do more damage due to stacking more crit.

And im just curious about the math here and the logic, why would i want to get more hitrating if it really doesnt make such a big difference in terms of DPS, i would love to resocket to hit and see how that affects my damage but i want to see the math first =/
I can answer this one pretty easily.

If you're looking at damage meters for one fight, they won't be representative. If you take them from an entire raid's worth, it'll contain about half as much trash damage as boss damage, depending on how much time you spent on each. Except on trash, the hit cap is 50ish. Hit is useless against the majority of the mobs you're fighting. If you fought bosses exclusively, the difference would be much more noticeable.

The main premise for stacking hit is that it is the best way to increase your dps against bosses, which is where dps matters. While one could make some valid points against this, this is why people tell you to stack hit.

I don't recommend using ShadowSeer at this point, it needs a rewrite for 2.4, which is not something I'll work on soon. I want 2.4 to stabilize first.

Last edited by Arelenda : Yesterday at 3:13 AM.
#2165SourcePosted on<=2.0.0SchLing
Originally Posted by XStoliX View Post
I dont really like the spreadsheet due to alot of reasons, Ive used it and the numbers were way to random and unrealistic thats why i have a strong distaste towards it although it is a handy tool.

Besides the spreadsheet shows me id do about 1600 DPS which never happens =/

The spreadsheet is using math under optimal conditions, and so it will also give you the optimal number of your DPS. I doesn't take account for lag, movement and the players ability to play his character effectivly.

In addition, if you take your stats and set your hit up from 8% to 16% you will see that you gain 1700DPS instead for 1600DPS. So, even if the spreadsheet is giving you number you can not live up to in a real enviroment it still shows you that over time hit will give more damage. And in the long run average wins.
#2166SourcePosted on<=2.0.0ChrisTheLock
Quick Question

I might be in the wrong forum, if i am i apologize, my question is i currently have 2 pc T4 and Spellstrike Set, i was wondering what is my next step to improve my dps. If someone could armory and let me know in their opnion what is the next step i would need to take. Or what gear i should be shooting for.

Ty in advance
#2167SourcePosted on<=2.0.0 masanbol
Originally Posted by ChrisTheLock View Post
I might be in the wrong forum, if i am i apologize, my question is i currently have 2 pc T4 and Spellstrike Set, i was wondering what is my next step to improve my dps. If someone could armory and let me know in their opnion what is the next step i would need to take. Or what gear i should be shooting for.

Ty in advance
Read the first post, use the spreadsheet, use the search function. There's a lot of posts by a lot of people asking questions that you can answer yourself just by being nonlazy and reading the top of the thread.

Originally Posted by XStoliX View Post
Arelenda ive read the compendium and i play my WL since BWL :P

The problem with the theorycraft and the hit-rating concept is that its still a subject to the theory of big numbers, which means if i record my data for an infinate amount of time id see the theoretically calculated number of miss% crit% etc,
the truth is that in raiding in any given circumstances this theory becomes obsolete quickly =/ the only other WL that does comparable damage is at 160 hit rating with a tack more spelldmg and less crit. In most encounters i easily do a bit more damage than he does, sure maybe im lucky and im hitting with ISB on the mob most of the time, id have to install shadowseer to check up on that theory. But the interresting thing is how crit% and spelldmg seems more beneficial to me, even though i have 111 hitrating i resist a lot less than my buddy does, sure thats luck based, but even when our resists are on par with each other i do more damage due to stacking more crit.

And im just curious about the math here and the logic, why would i want to get more hitrating if it really doesnt make such a big difference in terms of DPS, i would love to resocket to hit and see how that affects my damage but i want to see the math first =/
I'm wondering what you're expecting to hear from this forum if you're unwilling to listen to the advice that's being given. Everyone here is going to tell you the same thing: hit is best until you're capped, use the spreadsheet to model what you need next.

The spreadsheet will never tell you exactly down to the last DPS point exactly what you will put out on a given fight, but it's a great way to model a perfect situation. Just because it can't tell you perfectly what you're capable of doesn't make it useless. It's easily the most effective tool for a warlock to model ideal DPS for our specs, and if it gave you an answer you didn't like or didn't want to hear, there isn't very much we can do about it, and we aren't here to validate your assumptions.
#2168SourcePosted on<=2.0.0ChrisTheLock
Originally Posted by masanbol View Post
Read the first post, use the spreadsheet, use the search function. There's a lot of posts by a lot of people asking questions that you can answer yourself just by being nonlazy and reading the top of the thread.
.
I have read and tried all this mixing matching placin and replacing. I was asking for own personal experience what someone would suggest. I guess you can take it as im a perfectionist.
#2169SourcePosted on<=2.0.0 masanbol
Originally Posted by ChrisTheLock View Post
I have read and tried all this mixing matching placin and replacing. I was asking for own personal experience what someone would suggest. I guess you can take it as im a perfectionist.
The spreadsheet will tell you exactly what stat is best to next improve your DPS. The first post in this thread has links to the spreadsheet as well as plenty of other good information about gearing.
#2170SourcePosted on<=2.0.0shed
Sorry if this has been asked before, I couldn't find it. But at which point do incinerate spec'd warlocks provide more raid dps than shadowbolt/impsb locks when scorch is up.

Scenario is something like :

-all curses up
-2 spriests in raid
-2-3 fire mages
-3 destro locks
-1 affliction lock
#2171SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Vlar
Originally Posted by shed View Post
Sorry if this has been asked before, I couldn't find it. But at which point do incinerate spec'd warlocks provide more raid dps than shadowbolt/impsb locks when scorch is up.

Scenario is something like :

-all curses up
-2 spriests in raid
-2-3 fire mages
-3 destro locks
-1 affliction lock
The spreadsheet could prolly do this for you.
#2172SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Bandoer
Looking over WWS parses for Brutallus, the best fire and the best shadow performances were about the same, around 2300 dps.

Wow Web Stats
#2173SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Cronjob
Originally Posted by Bandoer View Post
Looking over WWS parses for Brutallus, the best fire and the best shadow performances were about the same, around 2300 dps.

Wow Web Stats
Which specifically are you looking at? I found that on Brut shadow out paced fire. We downed him lastnight and all our locks were shadow bolt 1 affliction.
#2174SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Bandoer
Draxyl - WWS - 2315 dps as fire
Xelnag - WWS - 2200 dps as fire

That was just from the top 2 parses.

Most locks are still shadow but the few that were fire were pretty much on par with shadow.
#2175SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Vlar
Originally Posted by Bandoer View Post
Draxyl - WWS - 2315 dps as fire
Xelnag - WWS - 2200 dps as fire

That was just from the top 2 parses.

Most locks are still shadow but the few that were fire were pretty much on par with shadow.
As to the first one...

Durcyn - 2295 dps as shadow, 34% crit adding on to:

Zuran - 1477 dps Shadow Priest

-and-

Werp - 1934 dps affliction warlock with 25% crit on bolts

If we take the dps difference between the fire lock and the shadow lock and divide it by the combined dps of the shadow dps'ers, shouldnt it show the percent of dps for each which ISB needed to provide to make up the difference? (If I am completely off, I will edit this out)

DPS difference = 20
Combined Shadow = 5706 dps
20/5706 = .003505

So ISB would have needed to make up 0.35% of each of there dps to equal the fire lock. (does that sound correct?)

Edit: as to the second one, there were no shadowlocks in that kill to compare to.

Edit 2: added Werp's crit rate

Edit 3: more of my usual bad math skills.

Last edited by Vlar : Yesterday at 3:29 PM.
#2176SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Bandoer View Post
Draxyl - WWS - 2315 dps as fire
Xelnag - WWS - 2200 dps as fire

That was just from the top 2 parses.

Most locks are still shadow but the few that were fire were pretty much on par with shadow.
If fire locks in raid do as much damage as shadow ones, they're better off as shadow for ISB.
#2177SourcePosted on<=2.0.0cynics
i was talking to Durcyn about that attempt and he said:

<cyn> durcyn, do you typically get out out dps'd by firelocks
<cyn> cause i noticed your dps time was 97% where as draxyl was 100%
* bump is now known as bumpmeetingbump
<durcyn> there was some movement on that attempt, iirc
<cyn> ah
<durcyn> and no, he's just recently gone fire, and has picked up more haste, so it's a bit early to tell
#2178SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Cronjob
Originally Posted by Bandoer View Post
Draxyl - WWS - 2315 dps as fire
Xelnag - WWS - 2200 dps as fire

That was just from the top 2 parses.

Most locks are still shadow but the few that were fire were pretty much on par with shadow.
Just for ref here is ours..

Wow Web Stats

I was looking at the DPS but also the total damage out for comparison purposes. Number of bolts etc.

EDIT: I noticed I matched their damage out but not in DPS.(not sure how that impacts anything) Also both have the same damage out. Our top lock however is insane.
#2179SourcePosted on<=2.0.0 kendra
Originally Posted by Vlar View Post
Werp - 1934 dps affliction warlock with 25% crit on bolts
hmm.. no unstable affliction .. thats affliction with ruin skilled ?
#2180SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Tornwings
Sorry if this has been answered before but I can't find it in the main post or in the pages i've read so far. How much of a dps is increase is the exalted hyjal caster ring over the revered one? I also can't find it in the spreadsheet, since it's a proc and not a stat.
#2181SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Vlar
Originally Posted by kendra View Post
hmm.. no unstable affliction .. thats affliction with ruin skilled ?
Reading the first post helps...

Optimally just one warlock in the raid should have them. The UA support build is recommended at starting levels, with the Ruin support build likely to perform a bit better at end level raiding, due to high amounts of hit and crit rating on pieces at that level.
Last time I saw the theorycraft, Ruin outdps'ed UA at approximately 25% crit.
#2182SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Vlar
Originally Posted by Tornwings View Post
Sorry if this has been answered before but I can't find it in the main post or in the pages i've read so far. How much of a dps is increase is the exalted hyjal caster ring over the revered one? I also can't find it in the spreadsheet, since it's a proc and not a stat.
One thing you can do is switch them out in the spreadsheet while changing nothing else. I believe that the proc is accounted for.
#2183SourcePosted on<=2.0.0calisti
Originally Posted by Tornwings View Post
Sorry if this has been answered before but I can't find it in the main post or in the pages i've read so far. How much of a dps is increase is the exalted hyjal caster ring over the revered one? I also can't find it in the spreadsheet, since it's a proc and not a stat.
Fortunately, the DPS spreadsheet contains a formula for determining the damage value of an item proc. On the advanced infos tab you will find the following:

Avg proc period for a CD proc: CD + [attack period] * (1-proc%) / proc%

You'll also find the +damage value of the proc on this tab. The spreadsheet then takes the average damage bonus of the proc and adds it to the overall spell damage bonus for the ring. Note that this value actually varies depending upon your your talent spec and spell timing. And in case you're wondering, my spreadsheet lists the average value of the proc as +14.41 damage.
#2184SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
Just for ref here is ours..

Wow Web Stats

I was looking at the DPS but also the total damage out for comparison purposes. Number of bolts etc.

EDIT: I noticed I matched their damage out but not in DPS.(not sure how that impacts anything) Also both have the same damage out. Our top lock however is insane.
The "dps" number is totally unreliable. Just look at total damage done over the fight, it's the best measure you'll get.
#2185SourcePosted on<=2.0.0galzohar
Actually, if you gave a spreadsheet enough data it would give you the DPS down to the point at least up to the level of randomness. However the time in a fight you spend not DPSing, and the luck or lack of luck you get on hits/crits, will have little to no effect on optimal gear choices, which is why the spreadsheet is so great.

If you waste little time not dpsing in a fight and play up to the level the spreadsheet is expecting you to play, you'll actually come pretty close to the DPS listed there. This isn't possible on all fights though, but still aside from small mana regen factors that still work while moving, in a fight where you DPS 80% of the time you should more or less get 80% of the spreadsheet's listed DPS. And remember an error of up to 5% (or even more on shorter fights) is very reasonable due to randomness of crits, but it doesn't change the way you pick stats as increasing the average increases not only the average but also the minimum and maximum reasonable expected DPS, helping both during "reasonable bad luck" and "reasonable good luck".

As for ignoring hit, that's going to do great on trash meters but isn't going to do good on bosses. While % per % crit is much stronger (which you can see on the spreadsheet by adding your DPS increase from 1% crit and raid ISB DPS increase and comparing to what you'd get from your DPS increase and raid ISB DPS increase if you add 1% hit), you need much more crit rating than hit rating to gain 1% which makes hit rating the ultimate stat for boss DPS until capped. Bosses is what makes progress though, and therefore that's what people theorycraft for. If you want to farm faster (especially outside of raids) it'd take a completely different kind of theorycraft which will give quite different results (favoring spell damage a lot more and hit a lot less and giving damage/crit different weighting depending how much either would help to actually kill a mob in less spells depending on its HP etc). Trash meters, while requring similar gearing to boss gearing, are completely independant of hit rating (+5% hit on gear would cap you on everything that's not a boss) and therefore looking at full instance clears will greatly discourage hit capping.

Not to mention that you need to remember at the end, any theorycrafting is very hard to measure in practice due to a lot of reasons with the main ones being play skill, non-DPS fight elements and luck of the dice, but it doesn't make them any less valid, as on average (and in the long run) going by the theorycraft *will* increase the DPS you're dealing.
#2186SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Gnomish
Having a little trouble with the speadsheet.

***Edit. Moved this question to a different thread.***
#2187SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Vlar
Originally Posted by galzohar;693780
As for ignoring hit, that's going to do great [B
on trash meters [/b]but isn't going to do good on bosses. While % per % crit is much stronger (which you can see on the spreadsheet by adding your DPS increase from 1% crit and raid ISB DPS increase and comparing to what you'd get from your DPS increase and raid ISB DPS increase if you add 1% hit), you need much more crit rating than hit rating to gain 1% which makes hit rating the ultimate stat for boss DPS until capped. Bosses is what makes progress though, and therefore that's what people theorycraft for. If you want to farm faster (especially outside of raids) it'd take a completely different kind of theorycraft which will give quite different results (favoring spell damage a lot more and hit a lot less and giving damage/crit different weighting depending how much either would help to actually kill a mob in less spells depending on its HP etc). Trash meters, while requring similar gearing to boss gearing, are completely independant of hit rating (+5% hit on gear would cap you on everything that's not a boss) and therefore looking at full instance clears will greatly discourage hit capping.
These are the numbers going by Leulier 2.2 which I got at various crit levels

ISB DPS (copied and pasted, not sure how the formating will go):

Number of shadow users 5 Raid Setup
You SU 2 SU 3 SU 4 SU 5
type warlock warlock SP SP
crit 21 15 25 0 0
hit 14 16 16 16 16
SB cast time 2.38 2.5 2.4
SB cast % 93.82% 60% 94%
MB Freq (s) 7.5 7.5
Shadow DPS 1728.3 1200 1100 1100 1100



Base:
+Damage: 1616
Crit: 10
Hit: 14
DPS:1549.32
ISB: 39.73%

+1% hit:

DPS: 1565.25
ISB: 39.72%

+1% crit

DPS: 1665.5
ISB: 40.45%

Base:
+Damage: 1616
Crit: 15
Hit: 14
DPS:1630.41
ISB: 43.2%

+1% hit:

DPS: 1647.26
ISB: 43.3%

+1% crit

DPS: 1646.68
ISB: 43.98%

Base:
+Damage: 1616
Crit: 20
Hit: 14
DPS:1711.93
ISB: 46.68%

+1% hit:

DPS: 1729.7
ISB: 46.72%

+1% crit

DPS: 1646.68
ISB: 47.34%

Results:
By choosing 1% hit instead of 1% crit

10% crit shows a loss of .73% ISB uptime

15% crit shows a loss of .68% ISB uptime

20% crit shows a loss if .62% ISB uptime

So at multiple gear levels, there will be an insignificant change in ISB uptime (about 7 crits every 1000 casts).

Edit: clarification

Edit 2: ISB is the Total Shadow DPS under the Raid ISB Tab (removed)

Edit 3: ISB changed to ISB Uptime.

Last edited by Vlar : Yesterday at 7:49 PM.
#2188SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Trickykid
Originally Posted by Vlar View Post
Edit 2: ISB is the Total Shadow DPS under the Raid ISB Tab
Some of that ISB contribution to your DPS is already included in your personal DPS. You may be double counting that part if you're summing raid shadow DPS.
#2189SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Vlar
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
Some of that ISB contribution to your DPS is already included in your personal DPS. You may be double counting that part if you're summing raid shadow DPS.
If his assertion that % crit is greater than % hit due to an increase in ISB DPS, wouldn't that skew the results in his favor?

Edit: the ISB I posted is useless, ignore it while I update.

Last edited by Vlar : Yesterday at 7:37 PM.
#2201SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1cladnin
I suppose that helps, seems like something that could be useful to be listed however. However, I see nothing mentioned about a spreadsheet on any of the first lines before he goes into spec detail, smart ass.

'm going to try and attempt to summarize the vast wealth of information going around.

Note that the compendium will be updated once the 2.4. patch goes live. Feel free to discuss patch changes in this thread, but I will only keep track of live changes in compendium itself.


Warlocks have many great talents, and there is lots of room for customizing your spec. Consequently there are many viable hybrid builds, each requiring a different play style. To keep this guide short, I'll focus on the three main tiers and their most sensible pve raid builds. Even within those there are a lot of variations possible.
#2202SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Vlar
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
I don't see what's there to argue about. 1% crit > 1% hit, but 1 hit rating > 1 crit rating. I thought everyone already knew that except the person that posted saying "1% crit over 1% hit is stupid" which wasn't correct. The spreadsheet and all evidence brought here only help to my point, showing that if you count ISB 1% crit is definitely better than 1% hit, with the problem with crit being that it takes >1.7X the amount of rating (or itemization points) to get the same %s, and 1% crit is only a bit better than hit, not even close to 1.7X better.
The numbers I posted above your post are from the spreadsheet.

If it is such a huge difference because of ISB uptime, why is the uptime effected by less than 1%?
#2203SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Thanahtos
Originally Posted by cladnin View Post
Went through the first few pages and it definitely wasn't answered there, and I think it should be on the first post personally. UA vs Ruin: what's better damage?
First, use the spreadsheet, second, it's UA, it was proved multiple times throughout this thread...

edit: Name-calling will get you no where Cladnin, there's another thread in the Class Mechanics forums called "another Warlock DPS Spreadsheet" or something like that. Use that spreadsheet, it will answer all your questions that were asked at least twenty times before.
#2204SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Vlar
Originally Posted by cladnin View Post
I suppose that helps, seems like something that could be useful to be listed however. However, I see nothing mentioned about a spreadsheet on any of the first lines before he goes into spec detail, smart ass.

It is in the first post.

Optimally just one warlock in the raid should have them. The UA support build is recommended at starting levels, with the Ruin support build likely to perform a bit better at end level raiding, due to high amounts of hit and crit rating on pieces at that level.
#2205SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1cladnin
Originally Posted by Thanahtos View Post
First, use the spreadsheet, second, it's UA, it was proved multiple times throughout this thread...
Obviously the warlock data is a bit confused, now isn't it? Kind of getting a mixed review here. The spreadsheet said ruin over UA.
#2206SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Thanahtos
Originally Posted by cladnin View Post
Obviously the warlock data is a bit confused, now isn't it? Kind of getting a mixed review here. The spreadsheet said ruin over UA.
You gave us no indication on your gear level. Seeing as you're a mage, I would assume it's for someone else in your guild. Also, going Ruin removes the possibility of an Improved Imp, which is one of the main reasons for an Affliction Warlock. (Along with SE and Malediction)

edit: If you want a warlock to do the optimum DPS, he should spec DS/S&F. If you want support, he should go UA Affliction, with 5/5 SE, 3/3 Malediction, and 3/3 Improved Imp.
#2207SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1dsl1
Difference between Fire and Shadow Destro at high gear levels is too minimal to switch.

Shadow scales better with damage and sunwell gear supports that.
#2208SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Vlar
Link: Hit/Crit Comparison from the the Spreadsheet

Edit: to make link more noticeable.

Last edited by Vlar : 04/01/08 at 1:55 PM.
#2209SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Derezzed
I love the spreadsheet (it will be taking away a lot of valuable work time) but what I don't get is that, no matter what I seem to do, or what variations on gear I select, Felguard is always the most DPS.

I've changed from FSW/Spellstrike to T4 and T5 and T6, but the 2 Felguard specs are always the highest dps.

Am I doing something wrong? I will admit I need to play around with it a bit more, but no matter how much gear I change around, Demo/Destro is always number one. If I have 30% crit or 5% crit, it doesn't matter.

oh yeah, and fire locks are higher DPS than shadow as well. I am confused.
#2210SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Vlar
Originally Posted by Derezzed View Post
oh yeah, and fire locks are higher DPS than shadow as well. I am confused.

As noted earlier, Fire is higher DPS, but a loss of ISB.
#2211SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Flamingcloud
I plug incin spec for my gear(changing cloak/wep enchant obv and adding a few veiled pyrestone to makeup for cloak hit) and get a 30dps gain(and this is assuming magic 100% immolate uptime), lose 8% ISB uptime, lose nether protection, lose soul leech. Draw conclusions from that as you will..
#2212SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Deathwing
Originally Posted by Derezzed View Post
I love the spreadsheet (it will be taking away a lot of valuable work time) but what I don't get is that, no matter what I seem to do, or what variations on gear I select, Felguard is always the most DPS.

I've changed from FSW/Spellstrike to T4 and T5 and T6, but the 2 Felguard specs are always the highest dps.

Am I doing something wrong? I will admit I need to play around with it a bit more, but no matter how much gear I change around, Demo/Destro is always number one. If I have 30% crit or 5% crit, it doesn't matter.
You're wondering why a spec that takes the most amount of support and attention is #1 dps, and yet still can't be used on all boss fights?
#2213SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
Originally Posted by Vlar View Post
The numbers I posted above your post are from the spreadsheet.

If it is such a huge difference because of ISB uptime, why is the uptime effected by less than 1%?
I don't understand what you were expecting, ISB from 1% crit to be significantly higher than 1%? Sorry man but you're not looking at it properly.

The so called "less than 1% ISB uptime increase" is more than enough raid DPS increase to make 1% crit better than 1% hit. Just look at the final numbers after inserting all data to see what gives you more if you can't just look at the bigger picture and see that 1% hit is barely more personal DPS than 1% crit but noticeably less raid DPS from ISB uptime.

Remember even 0.5% ISB increase is 0.1% DPS per shadow user which is kind of equivalent to 0.5% DPS increase to a single shadow user, which is slightly less than 1/2 of the benefit of 1% hit. Add that to the "almost as good as 1% hit" DPS you get from 1% crit and you get clearly more total raid DPS from 1% crit than 1% hit.

But again, hit rating is so much cheaper even with crit being in the area of 1.5X (more or less... but not even close to high enough margin of error to make it lower than 1) better than hit, hit is still about 1.7X cheaper due to the rating system (itemization cost) and thus better to stack until cap.

Just because you get a small number doesn't mean it's insignificant. A near-zero number multiplied by a near-infinity number can give both a near-zero number, a finite number or even an infinite number. Where it falls depends on how close to zero VS how close to infinity. In the case of crit and ISB the tiny increase of ISB uptime is multiplying multiple players' DPS and the result, while not anything huge, quite far from zero as well and it's definitely big enough that you cannot neglect it and get good theorycrafting results.
#2214SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Vlar
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
I don't understand what you were expecting, ISB from 1% crit to be significantly higher than 1%? Sorry man but you're not looking at it properly.

The so called "less than 1% ISB uptime increase" is more than enough raid DPS increase to make 1% crit better than 1% hit. Just look at the final numbers after inserting all data to see what gives you more if you can't just look at the bigger picture and see that 1% hit is barely more personal DPS than 1% crit but noticeably less raid DPS from ISB uptime.

Remember even 0.5% ISB increase is 0.1% DPS per shadow user which is kind of equivalent to 0.5% DPS increase to a single shadow user, which is slightly less than 1/2 of the benefit of 1% hit. Add that to the "almost as good as 1% hit" DPS you get from 1% crit and you get clearly more total raid DPS from 1% crit than 1% hit.

But again, hit rating is so much cheaper even with crit being in the area of 1.5X (more or less... but not even close to high enough margin of error to make it lower than 1) better than hit, hit is still about 1.7X cheaper due to the rating system (itemization cost) and thus better to stack until cap.

Just because you get a small number doesn't mean it's insignificant. A near-zero number multiplied by a near-infinity number can give both a near-zero number, a finite number or even an infinite number. Where it falls depends on how close to zero VS how close to infinity. In the case of crit and ISB the tiny increase of ISB uptime is multiplying multiple players' DPS and the result, while not anything huge, quite far from zero as well and it's definitely big enough that you cannot neglect it and get good theorycrafting results.
Again...

Originally Posted by Vlar View Post
Link: Hit/Crit Comparison from the the Spreadsheet

Edit: to make link more noticeable.
Note where the Totals for hit % + ISP DPS change are greater than the crit % + ISB DPS change

Edit: this is from the spreadsheet.
#2215SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Updated the compendium with some patch things. Let me know if you find any mistakes or if something could be cleared up. Next update will include gems, they're on the "to-do" list.
#2216SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Bolche
Originally Posted by Vlar View Post
I think you are mixing 2 differents numbers.
For exemple if we look at the first table (10% crit, 14% hit) :
16.18 is the dps you gain from 1% hit, while 0.742 is the dps the raid gains from 1 hit rating.
#2217SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Vlar
Originally Posted by Bolche View Post
I think you are mixing 2 differents numbers.
For exemple if we look at the first table (10% crit, 14% hit) :
16.18 is the dps you gain from 1% hit, while 0.742 is the dps the raid gains from 1 hit rating.
Ok, I just went back and manually changed the % in the spreadsheet too see the differnce in actual raid dps.

Base (10% Crit/14% Hit): ISB DPS: 6049.3
11% Crit: 6065.5
15% Hit: 6065.3

personal DPS gained of 1% hit over 1% crit previously posted: 1.91

Base (15% Crit/14% Hit): ISB DPS: 6130.4
16% Crit: 6146.7
15% Hit: 6147.3

personal DPS gained of 1% hit over 1% crit previously posted: 2.64


Base (20% Crit/14% Hit): ISB DPS: 6211.9
21% Crit: 6228.3
15% Hit: 6229.7

personal DPS gained of 1% hit over 1% crit previously posted: 3.38

What am I looking at wrong on the spreadsheet? By switching it manually % for % I am still showing 1% Hit > 1% Crit

Edit: Bolche, I am getting these numbers from Cell L11 of the Raid ISB Tab
#2218SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Trickykid
Originally Posted by Vlar View Post
Edit: Bolche, I am getting these numbers from Cell L11 of the Raid ISB Tab
That cell doesn't take into account ISB for anyone except you.

Set Raid TNS to 1 to include ISB changes in your "Next Stat" Table. Compare cell C40*12.6 to C41*22.08.

This conversation has gone on a really long time now considering the size of the variables by raid. There won't be a useful generic answer to this so I'm not sure how productive this is -- everyone should be using the values for their own raid group (with a unique mix of stats per shadow DPSer and number of Locks v SPs) and go from there.
#2219SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Vlar
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
That cell doesn't take into account ISB for anyone except you.

Set Raid TNS to 1 to include ISB changes in your "Next Stat" Table. Compare cell C40*12.6 to C41*22.08.

This conversation has gone on a really long time now considering the size of the variables by raid. There won't be a useful generic answer to this so I'm not sure how productive this is -- everyone should be using the values for their own raid group (with a unique mix of stats per shadow DPSer and number of Locks v SPs) and go from there.
So where on the Spreadsheet does it give you the Raid DPS increase by ISB?

The cells you listed give the amount of damage that the TNS is worth, not the change in Raid ISB DPS. People are stating that the spreadsheet shows that 1% Crit is better than 1% Hit because the DPS increase from the increased ISB uptime, so how do they see that?

Last edited by Vlar : 04/01/08 at 6:53 PM.
#2220SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Trickykid
Originally Posted by Vlar View Post
So where on the Spreadsheet does it give you the Raid DPS increase by ISB?
In the next stat section, which includes the increased DPS from 1 point in each of the stats via your own damage and raid damage from ISB.
#2221SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Vlar
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
In the next stat section, which includes the increased DPS from 1 point in each of the stats via your own damage and raid damage from ISB.
Are you sure? That looks more like a comparison to adding 1 damage.

Edit, Grammar
#2222SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Trickykid
Originally Posted by Vlar View Post
Are you sure, that looks more like a comparison to adding 1 damage.
Same thing... X/Y = (X/Z)/(Y/Z).

EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, setting Raid TNS = 1 includes the increase in DPS via ISB.
#2223SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Vlar
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
Same thing... X/Y = (X/Z)/(Y/Z).

EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, setting Raid TNS = 1 includes the increase in DPS via ISB.
With that, wouldn't you have to then compare it to the non ISB values to get the difference (the actual increase by ISB)?
#2224SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Trickykid
Originally Posted by Vlar View Post
With that, wouldn't you have to then compare it to the non ISB values to get the difference (the actual increase by ISB)?
If you wanted JUST the increase from ISB, yes. But the issue was total value to the raid (personal and ISB-contributions) per stat point. That's exactly what 'The Next Stat' section does. You may be trying to make this more difficult than it is.
#2225SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Vlar
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
If you wanted JUST the increase from ISB, yes. But the issue was total value to the raid (personal and ISB-contributions) per stat point. That's exactly what 'The Next Stat' section does. You may be trying to make this more difficult than it is.
Ok, I might understand it now:

1% Hit provides a personal DPS increase with a > .73% Decrease in ISB uptime.

A 20% increase in damage .73% of the time is the only difference in Raid DPS between crit and hit, making it (.2*.0073) .146% of the Raid's Shadow DPS.

So if the Raid's Shadow DPS is 5000, the ISB dps increase from 1% crit over 1% hit is 7.3.

This would then be added to the personal DPS 1% crit and compared to the personal DPS of 1% hit.

Am I on the correct path at least?

Edit: Clarification.

Last edited by Vlar : 04/01/08 at 8:06 PM.
#2226SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Vvandort
As Nether Vortexes are sold for badges and not bound since p2.4 (i.e. anyone can get and trade them pre-raid), [Belt of Blasting] should be added to the list of craftable gear. Too easy to get now, and just too good.
#2227SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Deuel
Sunwell question

So i have a question for some of you doing the sunwell. We have recently reached Brutallus in the sunwell, and have a pretty optimal group set up. One of our warlocks at the time is still spec'd ua for this encounter, we have not totally decided if the need for him to go destro is there or not. While doing our attempts we had talked about some ways to up his dps for the encounter with his current spec, so that he wouldn't be to gimped there. So my question is, would a regular dot roation of ua, corruption, immo, and sl be better or just a ua, corr and bolt spam be more beneficial here ?

The World of Warcraft Armory

Here is a link to his amory to help reference his gear. I had him try some points in shadow embrace for our Kalecgos video, and atm he's trying the haste offhand to the Orb offhand. He's a real strong aff lock and i think could do well for this fight as this spec (or close to this spec with some possible changes), but is also willing to spec destro if needed.
#2228SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Darkwand3r3r
Originally Posted by Deuel View Post
So i have a question for some of you doing the sunwell. We have recently reached Brutallus in the sunwell, and have a pretty optimal group set up. One of our warlocks at the time is still spec'd ua for this encounter, we have not totally decided if the need for him to go destro is there or not. While doing our attempts we had talked about some ways to up his dps for the encounter with his current spec, so that he wouldn't be to gimped there. So my question is, would a regular dot roation of ua, corruption, immo, and sl be better or just a ua, corr and bolt spam be more beneficial here ?

The World of Warcraft Armory

Here is a link to his amory to help reference his gear. I had him try some points in shadow embrace for our Kalecgos video, and atm he's trying the haste offhand to the Orb offhand. He's a real strong aff lock and i think could do well for this fight as this spec (or close to this spec with some possible changes), but is also willing to spec destro if needed.
Use the dps spreadsheet for that question. As far as i know using all dots does more dps and spam Sbolt as a filler.
And if you really want some results on dps, then he needs to spec 0/21/40.
#2229SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Fizwidget
5/5 Devastate will serve you much better on Brutallus than Shadowburn, for starters.

I would also recommend getting 5/5 SE for the raid. The two reasons to take an affliction lock to a raid at T6+ are 5/5 SE and 3/3 Malediction. Rescue a point from Grim Reach to fill up on SE. If you are having healing problems leave him affliction. If you have several shadow casters receiving a benefit from 13% malediction, you may also want to consider keeping an affliction lock on the Brutallus roster. If you are only considering this warlock's personal DPS, than 0/21/40 is the way to go.

Affliction DPS is always based on the DPSCT of your DoTs. For affliction, your DoTs will always have a higher DPSCT than shadow bolt, even SL. Affliction locks should always refresh DoTs as they fall off, there is no true "rotation" because of the differences in DoT length. (see first page)
#2230SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
1. Destruction will do more DPS, especially at sunwell gear levels. There's no way around it. And DoT rotations are harder to perform over shadowbolt/lifetap on top of that.

2. Unless your tanks and healers have absolutely no issues, shadow embrace is very useful, and the only real reason to spec affliction. Having an imp out in the tank group and malediction are nice extras but probably not enough to justify the lower DPS of affliction. 5% reduction to boss damage, while harder to actually notice, is actually a lot more useful both for reducing the required healing and effectively increasing the HP of the tank by significant amount (generally more than an imp would). This means drop a point from intensity and shadowburn for a point in shadow embrace and devastation.

3. He could use some easy gear fixes. MSD > 14 spell damage. CSD is better than both for destruction but not for affliction. Same goes for the 51 damage offhand from badges which is better than the haste offhand (remember DoTs don't tick any faster even though you lower the GCD so a noticeable benefit of haste is lost even in 2.4).

At the end while the raid may lose a bit of DPS (not as much as his personal DPS loss as malediction is somewhat better than the extra ISBs destruction provides over affliction for most raid setups), but gain a lot of survivability on the tank in return. in 99/100 progression fights it's simply more than worth it, it seems. If your tanks don't need those increases and you're having DPS issues you should most likely just replace a healer with a DPSer...
#2231SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Morwen
I would spec for Ruin over UA with that gear, easily (say, wowhead 40/0/21). It will result in about 40-50 more personal/raid dps in theory, and in practice it is probably even better because you're less likely to hit your UA max potential because of increased DoT gaps, UA suffering from pushback, and the debuff limit. Don't give up Intensity for Brutallus either, each point there is worth another 30ish dps.

Unless you have an exceptionally shadow-heavy raid, Malediction will not beat the benefits of being Destruction. Malediction is 2.7% above a normal CoS, so assuming about a 300 dps gap between personal affliction and destruction, you'd need well over 11000 shadow dps excluding yourself even before accounting for ISB differences, and that's not going to happen unless you're the 7th shadow user. Malediction is not so much support as it is a talent to make affliction dps tolerable for the one person who's getting Shadow Embrace anyway.
#2232SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
I suppose if a fight is extremely movement-light and pushback-heavy you could drop a point from affliction range talent instead of dropping a point from intensity.

I never said malediction will beat destructions, but the survivability gains on the tank are probably more than worth it unless tank survival/healing/threat on that fight is a lot more trivial than people make it sound. Remember a dead tank causing a wipe is a lot more common than lack of even 300 total raid DPS (and the difference in reality will probably not be as high due to malediction).

Heck, 11000 shadow DPS is not that extreme anyway (say 3X 1300DPS SP + 2X 2000 DPS lock + 1600 DPS aff lock give 9500, and with top-end gear it's possible to get higher), but even if you only get 6000 shadow DPS which is less than I'd expect for a sunwell raid that only brings 2XSP and 2Xlock with one of the locks being aff, it already makes up for 150 out of the 300 lost DPS. There's more to it than that though, refer to the spreadsheet to see the exact DPS differences (that also answer your ruin VS UA question). Again I'm not saying malediction will beat destruction in terms of total raid DPS (at least in most realistic cases), but the DPS gain is probably not worth the tank support loss.

Just ask your tank/healers what they would give for +700 HP as well as +5.26% effective HP (for physical damage). If multiple people in your raid are losing DPS due to threat it's even more useful as it allows the tank to trade more survivability for more threat, although that shouldn't be the primary issue, but tank death wipes just really suck.

Regarding UA VS ruin, go purely by the spreadsheet, but make sure to enter the correct DoT gap you're expecting. That way you won't be able to say "but UA does less than spreadsheet-dps due to DoT-gap"... In fact the default dot-gap on the spreadsheet is 2s which is probably quite higher than reality if you're actually focusing on DPSing to your max, so UA DPS is actually (slightly) under-estimated in my opinion. Remeber it needs to be the average gap you get, not the maximum.


At the end if your tank never dies and your healers never have issues healing and nobody in the raid is threat capped *but* there is no way you're doing this fight with 1 less healer, then go ahead and spec destruction instead. If your raid actually meets all of those conditions then destruction would help you get through the fight better than affliction.
#2233SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1burnz68
Soothing Kiss

Hey guys, this is a quasi-tanking question, but since it is a warlock ability, and I'm the warlock asking, I'll pose the question here first.

The question is "when should I use Soothing Kiss?" and it is primarily addressed to tanks, since it is a melee attack speed debuff. In particular, I'd like to know when this would help the most, particularly on MH/BT bosses, which is where I'm at for progression.

I'm a 5/35/21 and so from my perspective I use a succubus already, but mostly on passive simply for the added damage buffs and the shield of soul link. Since I already have her out, maintaining Soothing Kiss on a boss is quite easy, with rare exceptions like where death and decay spawns and there is so much AOE that she dies too easily to keep her in melee range.

Here's the relevant description in the tooltip, for those that may have overlooked it. "decreases melee attack speed by 10% for 10 sec". As far as her mana pool is concerned, I can cast it indefinitely as long as I can keep her alive.

A good example of a fight where I'd expect it to be very valuable is Azgalor. An example of a fight where I'd expect it to be useless is Kael, (or any caster-style boss, for that matter).

It does take up a debuff slot, but it also gets over-written quickly by stronger debuffs as it is a very low-priority debuff, so I don't think that's a concern for anyone to worry about too much.

Thoughts?
#2234SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Gumibear
Soothing Kiss is weaker than Thunderclap and can't stack with it. I wouldn't bother.
#2235SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
burnz68
Originally Posted by Gumibear View Post
Soothing Kiss is weaker than Thunderclap and can't stack with it. I wouldn't bother.
So I'm guessing when I do successfully apply it on a boss, that means Thunderclap isn't up? Edit: since it is also a -threat modifier, I bet it can be up simultaneously, it just doesn't carry an effect. Thanks for the heads up, this is just the sort of feedback I was looking for.

I do know that a druid has nothing equivalent to a Thunderclap, and I'm guessing prot pallies as well. So, if I had one of them tanking, probably not so useless?

Last edited by burnz68 : 04/02/08 at 2:58 PM.
#2236SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1corsair
Originally Posted by burnz68 View Post
I do know that a druid has nothing equivalent to a Thunderclap, and I'm guessing prot pallies as well. So, if I had one of them tanking, probably not so useless?
Well in raid scenarios there should probably be a dps warrior responsible for getting TC (and other debuffs) up, but I'm glad you asked your original question, as I searched around for the answer a bit ago and didn't find anything.
#2237SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by burnz68 View Post
So I'm guessing when I do successfully apply it on a boss, that means Thunderclap isn't up? Edit: since it is also a -threat modifier, I bet it can be up simultaneously, it just doesn't carry an effect. Thanks for the heads up, this is just the sort of feedback I was looking for.

I do know that a druid has nothing equivalent to a Thunderclap, and I'm guessing prot pallies as well. So, if I had one of them tanking, probably not so useless?
This all makes sense, can I get confirmation on TC overwriting Soothing Kiss, before I add it to the OP?
#2238SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Vlar
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
This all makes sense, can I get confirmation on TC overwriting Soothing Kiss, before I add it to the OP?
It is too bad that the Voidwalkers special debuff has such a crappy CD.

I wonder if the debuff would be worth the DPS loss in the beginning of a fight to reduce initial spike damage or a few extra seconds during an enrage.

Suffering - Spells - World of Warcraft
#2239SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Akj
Originally Posted by Vlar View Post
It is too bad that the Voidwalkers special debuff has such a crappy CD.

I wonder if the debuff would be worth the DPS loss in the beginning of a fight to reduce initial spike damage or a few extra seconds during an enrage.

Suffering - Spells - World of Warcraft
Unless it was changed recently, I do not believe it works on bosses.
#2240SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Cronjob
Originally Posted by Deuel View Post
So i have a question for some of you doing the sunwell. We have recently reached Brutallus in the sunwell, and have a pretty optimal group set up. One of our warlocks at the time is still spec'd ua for this encounter, we have not totally decided if the need for him to go destro is there or not. While doing our attempts we had talked about some ways to up his dps for the encounter with his current spec, so that he wouldn't be to gimped there. So my question is, would a regular dot roation of ua, corruption, immo, and sl be better or just a ua, corr and bolt spam be more beneficial here ?

The World of Warcraft Armory

Here is a link to his amory to help reference his gear. I had him try some points in shadow embrace for our Kalecgos video, and atm he's trying the haste offhand to the Orb offhand. He's a real strong aff lock and i think could do well for this fight as this spec (or close to this spec with some possible changes), but is also willing to spec destro if needed.

Are you guys even hitting the enrage timer? If so are you doing it consistantly? We carry one affliction lock in our raid for Brut. You can scroll back a few pages and check out the WWS log of our attempts and the one of us killing him. Every lil bit of damage reduction we can get helps us for that fight. So having him for the SE and Mal for the shadow priests is pretty helpful lets us Desto locks DPS pretty much non stop.
#2241SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
galzohar
You're mixing shadow embrace with malediction's extra mana regen from shadow priests. While shadow embrace is a huge benefit, the extra mp5 you get by giving malediction to the shadow priests is equivalent to like 6 mp5 per warlock... That's quite tiny of a benefit and the last argument I'd bring in favor of having an affliction warlock.

This is supposed to keep things in proportion. Affliction warlocks are great to have, but the reason is not the fact they help the shadow priests regen some more mana for the raid.

Last edited by galzohar : 04/03/08 at 12:12 PM.
#2242SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Cronjob
I was talking about the VE we get back lets us lifetap without too much fear of being slashed to death which helps us DPS pretty much non stop and allows the healers to concentrate on other things besides keeping our group up.
#2243SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
You're mixing shadow embrace with malediction's extra mana regen from shadow priests. While shadow embrace is a huge benefit, the extra mp5 you get by giving malediction to the shadow priests is equivalent to like 6 mp5 per warlock... That's quite tiny of a benefit and the last argument I'd bring in favor of having an affliction warlock
I believe it's common knowledge by now that affliction is all about Shadow Embrace. Imp Blood Pact helps but is by no means vital (unless your tanks are very undergeared) and Malediction helps offset the dps loss due to being affliction.

Shadow Embrace is incredibly useful for progression if you're having issues with tank deaths, which tends to be the number one concern anyway in raids. Especially given the current buff to bosses in Sunwell and how much physical damage they dish out.
#2244SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Cronjob
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Shadow Embrace is incredibly useful for progression if you're having issues with tank deaths, which tends to be the number one concern anyway in raids. Especially given the current buff to bosses in Sunwell and how much physical damage they dish out.

I agree, Brut is definately the Patchwork of TBC.. Unless you've attempted him you wont understand. Every little bit of survivability you can give your tanks the better. Just like everything you can do to increase raid DPS the better. Personally I dropped herbalism for Leatherworking for the drums. Although I didnt have them last week when we downed him it wont hurt having them this week.
#2245SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Parzifal
some observations and questions

First time poster here... You all have a very valuable collection of information here. Between this and Leulier's spreadsheet, I've learned an awful lot about fine tuning a lock.

First, a question: although there is a lot of discussion about the impact on ISB uptime to a raid's dps, this does not appear to be a particularly painless process via the spreadsheet. Is there a general rule of thumb for this? i.e., in SSC, generally 1% increased ISB uptime -> 20 dps or something of the kind? I'd like to be able to assess my total contribution to the raid more easily. Even a ballpark figure would tell me more than I know now.

I have an observation about a realistic casting sequence, something not currently addressed by the spreadsheet. Because being threat-capped is a real problem for me (I'll talk to this more below), I tend to begin fights with CoA, Corruption and Immolate, followed relatively soon by Lifetaps to keep my mana up near 100% so that once the tank firmly establishes aggro, I can spam SB for longer without worry for flying past him. After all, early on, an SB crit for 5-6k is a much larger percentage change in aggro than it is later on. As far as I can tell, while working with a "threat-challenged" tank, this is a good strategy. Any comments?

Also, I think it's worth noting if it hasn't already been said, Fire doesn't seem to me to be as viable as shadow in pre-T5 gear levels since +shadow is considerably easier to come by (viz., FSW, Ritssyn's, Dalaran, etc.)

Ok, one final question... but first some explanation... Though I enjoy raiding, my six week old daughter doesn't allow it much now. As such, I spend 95% of my time outside of raids and am consequently mired in slightly different issues than I might be with the guild raids. As my +shadow rose over 1200, I've found that most tanks in 5 and 10 man pugs (and even guild runs) are not the aggro-machines that raiding tanks are. As a result, my dps suffers greatly since I have to frequently wait for the tank to build aggro.

So my question is this: are there any tactics for 21/40 (other than what I mentioned above) that would mitigate the problem or should I respec to the attractive (and potentially more dps) 7/43/11 demo or something similar? Mind you, I'm most interested in non-raids, so if you all don't mind the brief diversion from raid theorycrafting, I'd appreciate some more generally applicable spec advice. Thanks in advance!
#2246SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1LockApologist
Originally Posted by Parzifal View Post
First time poster here... You all have a very valuable collection of information here. Between this and Leulier's spreadsheet, I've learned an awful lot about fine tuning a lock.

First, a question: although there is a lot of discussion about the impact on ISB uptime to a raid's dps, this does not appear to be a particularly painless process via the spreadsheet. Is there a general rule of thumb for this? i.e., in SSC, generally 1% increased ISB uptime -> 20 dps or something of the kind? I'd like to be able to assess my total contribution to the raid more easily. Even a ballpark figure would tell me more than I know now.

I have an observation about a realistic casting sequence, something not currently addressed by the spreadsheet. Because being threat-capped is a real problem for me (I'll talk to this more below), I tend to begin fights with CoA, Corruption and Immolate, followed relatively soon by Lifetaps to keep my mana up near 100% so that once the tank firmly establishes aggro, I can spam SB for longer without worry for flying past him. After all, early on, an SB crit for 5-6k is a much larger percentage change in aggro than it is later on. As far as I can tell, while working with a "threat-challenged" tank, this is a good strategy. Any comments?

Also, I think it's worth noting if it hasn't already been said, Fire doesn't seem to me to be as viable as shadow in pre-T5 gear levels since +shadow is considerably easier to come by (viz., FSW, Ritssyn's, Dalaran, etc.)

Ok, one final question... but first some explanation... Though I enjoy raiding, my six week old daughter doesn't allow it much now. As such, I spend 95% of my time outside of raids and am consequently mired in slightly different issues than I might be with the guild raids. As my +shadow rose over 1200, I've found that most tanks in 5 and 10 man pugs (and even guild runs) are not the aggro-machines that raiding tanks are. As a result, my dps suffers greatly since I have to frequently wait for the tank to build aggro.

So my question is this: are there any tactics for 21/40 (other than what I mentioned above) that would mitigate the problem or should I respec to the attractive (and potentially more dps) 7/43/11 demo or something similar? Mind you, I'm most interested in non-raids, so if you all don't mind the brief diversion from raid theorycrafting, I'd appreciate some more generally applicable spec advice. Thanks in advance!
For 5/10 mans, some variation of Felguard spec does well, as will UA. Unless you can kill the mob in the time it takes for it to move from the tank to you, 21/40 doesn't make sense. If you really want to stay destro, I would choose something like 7/7/47 (aka pvp destro).

5 mans are not about make dps/efficiency. More about coordination.
#2247SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
For 5-mans if your tank can't generate a lot of threat at least team up with people who help you kite the mobs (rogue stuns/crip poison, frostshock, frostbolt or just frost nova/blastwave/DB etc etc). With good enough DPS you should be able to intentionally pull aggro knowing the mob will die before it gets to you or you'll be able to run away from it without dying while others are killing it. Remember when something doesn't need to be tanked not only you can do more DPS, but so can the other group memebers, if they're actually good enough to do more DPS than the tank can generate threat of course. Worst case the instances are easy enough for slow DPS to be good enough to clear it - other than pulling aggro and killing the mob without a tank there's absolutely nothing you can do to help it (other than soulshattering every 5 minutes...).

While multi-dotting with affliction sounds really nice for 5-mans, the fact is it gets that much less effective to pull aggro and nuke more than 1 target at a time. Not to mention the focused mob generally takes significantly less time to die than the time it takes DoTs to tick off, even worse for the DoTs that were applied last.
Felguard may be a sweet alternative for being threat efficient but will not nescessary help your cause over destruction.

In 10-mans there's no way out of it. Bad tank = bad DPS = slow run and even wipes if the group is bad enough. Run 10-mans with good players of face the concenquences, there's no way around it.

Fire is indeed pretty pointless at FSW gear levels maybe unless you're willing to respec spellfire but even then the raid ISB losses may be bigger than the DPS increase of fire depending on your raid and gear.


The spreadsheet already counts ISB uptime into the part that tells you how good it would be to add 1 point of each stat (TNS - To Next Stat) if you enable it to use raid ISB model and add raid ISB DPS to TNS. If you just change your crit chance in your base stats part it won't include the raid ISB DPS in your own so you'll have to just go look at the ISB uptime change and multiply it by 0.2 of the shadow DPS of the rest of the shadow users in the raid (your own extra ISB DPS is already accounted for). And obviously crit's effect on ISB depends quite significantly on what other shadow users are in your raid - their DPS, the warlock:SP ratio, and warlocks' spec and crit chance matter. Just remember when you parse their DPS on WWS look at your own DPS as well - WWS DPS is usually lower than theorycrafted DPS but the spreadsheet requires you to enter their theorycrafted DPS (assuming they lose as much DPS as you to skill/movement/etc issues). You could also multiply your own DPS by the inverse of that factor but that would be harder to actually do on the spreadsheet.


This makes me think it would be nice to add an option on the spreadsheet that would take your input of "WWS DPS" value and assume the reason it's lower than the theorycrafted DPS is because you only spend X% of the time actually casting, and calculate TNS accordingly.
#2248SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Clandestine
Originally Posted by Parzifal View Post
Also, I think it's worth noting if it hasn't already been said, Fire doesn't seem to me to be as viable as shadow in pre-T5 gear levels since +shadow is considerably easier to come by (viz., FSW, Ritssyn's, Dalaran, etc.)
[Shadow-Cloak of Dalaran] is not actually a shadow damage only cloak, you're just an idiot.
#2249SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Lite
Hi, I was wondering what my warlocks spell hit cap would be if I only had 1/5 in suppression.
#2250SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Parzifal View Post
First, a question: although there is a lot of discussion about the impact on ISB uptime to a raid's dps, this does not appear to be a particularly painless process via the spreadsheet. Is there a general rule of thumb for this? i.e., in SSC, generally 1% increased ISB uptime -> 20 dps or something of the kind? I'd like to be able to assess my total contribution to the raid more easily. Even a ballpark figure would tell me more than I know now.
I wrote ShadowSeer for this. The data I got varied wildly per fight. ISB differs tons on trash and bosses, and it's insanely hard to model. I'm currently rewriting ShadowSeer for 2.4 so you may want to check it out when it's done, and see for yourself who's contributing to ISB and who's gaining from it. I'm fairly convinced that the spreadsheet does a reasonable estimation and you won't get much better than that.


Originally Posted by Parzifal View Post
I have an observation about a realistic casting sequence, something not currently addressed by the spreadsheet. Because being threat-capped is a real problem for me (I'll talk to this more below), I tend to begin fights with CoA, Corruption and Immolate, followed relatively soon by Lifetaps to keep my mana up near 100% so that once the tank firmly establishes aggro, I can spam SB for longer without worry for flying past him. After all, early on, an SB crit for 5-6k is a much larger percentage change in aggro than it is later on. As far as I can tell, while working with a "threat-challenged" tank, this is a good strategy. Any comments?
If you have long term aggro issues, the last thing you want to do is cast affliction spells, they're more threat per damage than destruction spells (assuming 0/21/40). Start with Immolate, and a debuff curse like CoR/CoS if applicable. Corruption and Agony are only useful when you don't care about long term aggro, but can't risk an immediate threat burst.

If you find you're consistently going over the tank's threat, I'd suggest any of the following.
- get a better tank
- teach your current tank how to play
- on trash: make sure to divide your damage over tanked targets. Spam CoA on all offtanked ones before bolting.
- make sure the tank's not overgeared and therefore not getting rage, have him adjust his gear accordingly
- use coR
- Misdirect / Prayer of Mending / Earth Shield
- go demonology with imp and get the -20% threat reduction
- just wait a bit longer. Unless you risk enrage timer, you simply shouldn't risk pulling aggro.
- Enchant Cloak: Subtlety




Originally Posted by Parzifal View Post
Also, I think it's worth noting if it hasn't already been said, Fire doesn't seem to me to be as viable as shadow in pre-T5 gear levels since +shadow is considerably easier to come by (viz., FSW, Ritssyn's, Dalaran, etc.)
It currently looks as it's raid setup dependent. There are indeed quite a few bits that are really good and only do shadow damage, not to mention the Soulfrost Enchant. I haven't bothered with experimenting with fire yet for exactly the reason you mentioned.


Originally Posted by Parzifal View Post
Ok, one final question... but first some explanation... Though I enjoy raiding, my six week old daughter doesn't allow it much now. As such, I spend 95% of my time outside of raids and am consequently mired in slightly different issues than I might be with the guild raids. As my +shadow rose over 1200, I've found that most tanks in 5 and 10 man pugs (and even guild runs) are not the aggro-machines that raiding tanks are. As a result, my dps suffers greatly since I have to frequently wait for the tank to build aggro.

So my question is this: are there any tactics for 21/40 (other than what I mentioned above) that would mitigate the problem or should I respec to the attractive (and potentially more dps) 7/43/11 demo or something similar? Mind you, I'm most interested in non-raids, so if you all don't mind the brief diversion from raid theorycrafting, I'd appreciate some more generally applicable spec advice. Thanks in advance!
For 5-10 mans: These aren't exactly gear tests, these days. I'd opt away from a 0/21/40 to obtain some more versatility and variation. My choice would be a x/x/40 or x/x/41, or a demonology hybrid (x/40/x, x/21/x, x/41+/x)

Here's a quick overview of my opinions on the subject:

Destro: Destro nukes things, hard. You need to be careful with aggro as a consequence. When the party lends itself to it, I prefer a "don't tank skull" strategy, where on each pull the group focus fires on one untanked target while the tank grabs everything else. When done right, the target dies too fast to be able to do real damage. Works in low level pugs and in heroics alike. Death Coil, Shadowburn, Succubus Seduction and tailor nets work nice with this. Not super for soloing as longevity is an issue, resulting in a bit of downtime.

Affliction: Affliction excels in pvp and for solo grinding. It is just not very effective in parties -my main reason for disliking the play style- due to the points made by previous posters. Typically groups will try to do maximum burst damage and affliction sorely lacks this. If you're going for a 5 man spec I'd recommend against heavy affliction.

Demonology: Demonology is all about having a demon out (or sacrificing it) and making good use of that. Good demon selection and management is what separates the good from the average demonologists. Especially the succubus is notoriously hard to use effectively, and will require good micro management. There are multiple good ways of going demo for 5mans, from all out Felguard to any form of hybrid in between. Any sensible spec will serve.

Last edited by Arelenda : 04/03/08 at 7:27 PM.
#2251SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Noree
Quick question...

Taking into consideration how much of a buff Spell Haste got in 2.4,

Say you are a Warlock in a raid environment spec'd 0/21/40 with about 30% crit, 1550 shadow damage and 16% haste rating (fully raid buffed, full consumables, etc.)

What would be more preferable...

A gain of 87 spell damage or a gain of 56 haste rating (approximately 3.50%)
#2252SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Noree View Post
What would be more preferable...

A gain of 87 spell damage or a gain of 56 haste rating (approximately 3.50%)
The spreadsheet can tell you, but even as Destro the 87 damage is better.
#2253SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arnath
Originally Posted by Lite View Post
Hi, I was wondering what my warlocks spell hit cap would be if I only had 1/5 in suppression.
I don't really understand what you mean by this. The hit cap is always 16% for level 73 mobs, points in Suppression don't change that in any way.

Please read existing threads before posting.
#2254SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Lite
Originally Posted by Arnath View Post
I don't really understand what you mean by this. The hit cap is always 16% for level 73 mobs, points in Suppression don't change that in any way.

Please read existing threads before posting.
After obtaining 76 hit rating with 5/5 Suppression, warlock dots are hit capped. Further extra hit rating only affects Shadow Bolts/Immolate, and is worth less than spell damage on a point-for-point basis.


Sorry, I must've misunderstood..
#2255SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Ralyc
hi, just a quick question

as a classic shadow-destro lock what increase the dps more.. the 2 12 spelldmg from enchanter or using drums of battle on cooldown ?
#2256SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Thanahtos
Originally Posted by Ralyc View Post
hi, just a quick question

as a classic shadow-destro lock what increase the dps more.. the 2 12 spelldmg from enchanter or using drums of battle on cooldown ?
/facepalm

Use the spreadsheet.
#2257SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Cronjob
Originally Posted by Lite View Post
After obtaining 76 hit rating with 5/5 Suppression, warlock dots are hit capped. Further extra hit rating only affects Shadow Bolts/Immolate, and is worth less than spell damage on a point-for-point basis.


Sorry, I must've misunderstood..

Your question was not worded correctly. Your actual hit cap wont change with 1/5 suppression. The cap is always 10% for affliction 16% for destro. I think what you meant to ask was what will my hit rating be with 1/5 suppresion, which is 2%.
#2258SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arnath
Originally Posted by Lite View Post
After obtaining 76 hit rating with 5/5 Suppression, warlock dots are hit capped. Further extra hit rating only affects Shadow Bolts/Immolate, and is worth less than spell damage on a point-for-point basis.


Sorry, I must've misunderstood..
Like the above poster said, your question was worded oddly. With 1/5 Suppression, you have 2% to hit with dots so you need another 14% from items. This is something close to 168 hit rating (it's a little more than 168, I just used 12 hit rating = 1% hit as an approximation where really it's 12.something).
#2259SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Parzifal
Thanks to Arelenda and the others for your thoughtful replies to my questions and comments (except for one person, obviously.. lol). As has been typical here, some of the insights given were new to me and will be useful. I'll definitely respec demo now and try it out.

I do have one more follow-on question: what's the best spec / item choices for farming? Since I was 21/40, I've been sacrificing my voidwalker and have very much enjoyed the total lack of downtime that comes with it, spending about 7 seconds on each mob (2-3 SBs, wait for the last SB to land, if none of them crit then Shadowburn). Is there a more efficient way of doing this? With two instant DoTs and a mini-tank that follows me around in the form of my Felguard, I suspect that x/41+/x will be considerably better since multiple mobs may be taken on simultaneously. Farming in my mind is all about speed, so if there's a faster way to take things down, I'd be very interested to hear it.
#2260SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Mirya
What type of mod is everyone using to keep track of curse and DOT timers these days? I used to use DoTimer for a long time, and it was great. But it hasn't been updated for the 2.4 patch. Are there any reliable DOT timers that are still being regularly updated?
#2261SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Faldrath
Originally Posted by Mirya View Post
What type of mod is everyone using to keep track of curse and DOT timers these days? I used to use DoTimer for a long time, and it was great. But it hasn't been updated for the 2.4 patch. Are there any reliable DOT timers that are still being regularly updated?
I still use DoTimer, actually. At least for me, it still works well in 2.4 (I don't use all of its modules, though, only DoTimer and Cooldowns).
#2262SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Cronjob
Originally Posted by Parzifal View Post
Thanks to Arelenda and the others for your thoughtful replies to my questions and comments (except for one person, obviously.. lol). As has been typical here, some of the insights given were new to me and will be useful. I'll definitely respec demo now and try it out.

I do have one more follow-on question: what's the best spec / item choices for farming? Since I was 21/40, I've been sacrificing my voidwalker and have very much enjoyed the total lack of downtime that comes with it, spending about 7 seconds on each mob (2-3 SBs, wait for the last SB to land, if none of them crit then Shadowburn). Is there a more efficient way of doing this? With two instant DoTs and a mini-tank that follows me around in the form of my Felguard, I suspect that x/41+/x will be considerably better since multiple mobs may be taken on simultaneously. Farming in my mind is all about speed, so if there's a faster way to take things down, I'd be very interested to hear it.
Gonna really depend on what you are farming and your gear really. I run 0/21/40 and farm in pve spec, most stuff dies to one or two bolts max.
#2263SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Thanahtos
Originally Posted by Mirya View Post
What type of mod is everyone using to keep track of curse and DOT timers these days? I used to use DoTimer for a long time, and it was great. But it hasn't been updated for the 2.4 patch. Are there any reliable DOT timers that are still being regularly updated?
ClassTimer works great for me.
#2264SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by Parzifal View Post
I do have one more follow-on question: what's the best spec / item choices for farming? Since I was 21/40, I've been sacrificing my voidwalker and have very much enjoyed the total lack of downtime that comes with it, spending about 7 seconds on each mob (2-3 SBs, wait for the last SB to land, if none of them crit then Shadowburn). Is there a more efficient way of doing this? With two instant DoTs and a mini-tank that follows me around in the form of my Felguard, I suspect that x/41+/x will be considerably better since multiple mobs may be taken on simultaneously. Farming in my mind is all about speed, so if there's a faster way to take things down, I'd be very interested to hear it.
To be honest, I rarely farm. My funds come from having 3 alchemists transmute masters transmuting a primal earth to water each day. But when I do farm as 0/21/40, it's with a sacced Felhunter or Voidwalker. It's been ages since I farmed as anything else, but affliction will just dot everything in sight up and live through whatever damage they take through Siphon Life and Drain Life (and Dark Pact replacing Life Tap). When done right it's likely faster than Destro with less down time.

It'll be spawn rate, mob type and gear dependant, obviously.

With the current end game gear available (including MgP which has ridiculously good loot), most things outside die so fast that you spend most of your time moving from one target to the next.
#2265SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Cohren
Originally Posted by Mirya View Post
What type of mod is everyone using to keep track of curse and DOT timers these days? I used to use DoTimer for a long time, and it was great. But it hasn't been updated for the 2.4 patch. Are there any reliable DOT timers that are still being regularly updated?
Forte Warlock, even keeps track of other Warlock's ISB proc's.
#2266SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Nicarras
Originally Posted by Parzifal View Post
First time poster here... You all have a very valuable collection of information here. Between this and Leulier's spreadsheet, I've learned an awful lot about fine tuning a lock.

First, a question: although there is a lot of discussion about the impact on ISB uptime to a raid's dps, this does not appear to be a particularly painless process via the spreadsheet. Is there a general rule of thumb for this? i.e., in SSC, generally 1% increased ISB uptime -> 20 dps or something of the kind? I'd like to be able to assess my total contribution to the raid more easily. Even a ballpark figure would tell me more than I know now.

I have an observation about a realistic casting sequence, something not currently addressed by the spreadsheet. Because being threat-capped is a real problem for me (I'll talk to this more below), I tend to begin fights with CoA, Corruption and Immolate, followed relatively soon by Lifetaps to keep my mana up near 100% so that once the tank firmly establishes aggro, I can spam SB for longer without worry for flying past him. After all, early on, an SB crit for 5-6k is a much larger percentage change in aggro than it is later on. As far as I can tell, while working with a "threat-challenged" tank, this is a good strategy. Any comments?

Also, I think it's worth noting if it hasn't already been said, Fire doesn't seem to me to be as viable as shadow in pre-T5 gear levels since +shadow is considerably easier to come by (viz., FSW, Ritssyn's, Dalaran, etc.)

Ok, one final question... but first some explanation... Though I enjoy raiding, my six week old daughter doesn't allow it much now. As such, I spend 95% of my time outside of raids and am consequently mired in slightly different issues than I might be with the guild raids. As my +shadow rose over 1200, I've found that most tanks in 5 and 10 man pugs (and even guild runs) are not the aggro-machines that raiding tanks are. As a result, my dps suffers greatly since I have to frequently wait for the tank to build aggro.

So my question is this: are there any tactics for 21/40 (other than what I mentioned above) that would mitigate the problem or should I respec to the attractive (and potentially more dps) 7/43/11 demo or something similar? Mind you, I'm most interested in non-raids, so if you all don't mind the brief diversion from raid theorycrafting, I'd appreciate some more generally applicable spec advice. Thanks in advance!
You dont have the gear for Destruction. For a raid you are actually hurting ISB by having your crit so low, and it gets magnified by each shadow priest you have in the raid with you as well.

Your best bet would be to spec UA for your 5/10 mans and that way juggling dots and random SB filler should keep you a little more manageable on your threat issues. Heck even PVE felguard would work, granted PVE felguard you still want a decent amount crit, which you are lacking.

You did find a problem though, it is very easy to scale our damage very quickly at 70. Its just all the other stats you need to work on now....hit/crit/stam/int, thats basically all you gain until you start getting into haste gear.

I remember waiting for tanks to 'catch up' in gear so I wouldnt be so threat capped...it sucked, but they do catch up
#2267SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1bigbell
Shadow or Fire?

Hi guys,

Im having trouble with the spreadsheet i think. I understood from reading posts here that Shadow was still best for endgame warlocks. However, the spreadsheet seems to be telling me something different, incinerate spam is beating shadowbolt by a large margin. Around 200+dps more.

I guess my question is this. Am I doing something completely wrong when entering data into the spreadsheet? Or are others getting similar results? I have noticed on WWS parses on brutallus etc that there seems to be more warlocks going with fire.


If anyone can help it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
#2268SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Gumibear
Originally Posted by Parzifal View Post
Thanks to Arelenda and the others for your thoughtful replies to my questions and comments (except for one person, obviously.. lol). As has been typical here, some of the insights given were new to me and will be useful. I'll definitely respec demo now and try it out.

I do have one more follow-on question: what's the best spec / item choices for farming? Since I was 21/40, I've been sacrificing my voidwalker and have very much enjoyed the total lack of downtime that comes with it, spending about 7 seconds on each mob (2-3 SBs, wait for the last SB to land, if none of them crit then Shadowburn). Is there a more efficient way of doing this? With two instant DoTs and a mini-tank that follows me around in the form of my Felguard, I suspect that x/41+/x will be considerably better since multiple mobs may be taken on simultaneously. Farming in my mind is all about speed, so if there's a faster way to take things down, I'd be very interested to hear it.
A farming spec depends on gear. Felguard spec was great when I was in tier 5 gear since the 2 piece bonus would heal my pet. Now in full BT gear, I'm farming faster with 0/21/40. 2-3 incinerates kill just about anything I'd farm, and a sacrificed voidwalker makes my downtime non-existant. Even in 2 piece 5, I had to slow down from time to time to drain life to keep going or to summon a new Felguard after the last one died.

Originally Posted by bigbell View Post
Hi guys,

Im having trouble with the spreadsheet i think. I understood from reading posts here that Shadow was still best for endgame warlocks. However, the spreadsheet seems to be telling me something different, incinerate spam is beating shadowbolt by a large margin. Around 200+dps more.

I guess my question is this. Am I doing something completely wrong when entering data into the spreadsheet? Or are others getting similar results? I have noticed on WWS parses on brutallus etc that there seems to be more warlocks going with fire.


If anyone can help it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Patch 2.4 changed Emberstorm in a way that changed our opinion of fire. In general, fire is better personal DPS, and a 200 DPS difference in favor of fire is not unreasonable.

Raid compositions like 3 warlocks with 2 shadow priests still warrant just 1 warlock using shadow bolt for better raid DPS via ISB.
#2269SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
ninielin
200 + dps difference? mm wouldn't a SB build scale better anyway? ( haste/ + dmg?)

edit: I only get around 30 dps in favor of fire using the spreadsheet ( full BT/hyjal). Sounds like you forgot to change your pet when you switched the filler spell and kept imp for the shadow build.

Last edited by ninielin : 04/05/08 at 5:30 AM.
#2270SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
Originally Posted by ninielin View Post
200 + dps difference? mm wouldn't a SB build scale better anyway? ( haste/ + dmg?)

edit: I only get around 30 dps in favor of fire using the spreadsheet ( full BT/hyjal). Sounds like you forgot to change your pet when you switched the filler spell and kept imp for the shadow build.
While it would be funny if that's the reason people got 200 more dps with fire than shadow, I wouldn't jump to that conclusion.

Make sure you're enabling 5/5 scorch from fire mages (or otherwise why would you consider fire in the firstplace...) and use proper ISB modeling (raid ISB option and fill the stats of the shadow users in your raid in the raid ISB tab and check how much ISB DPS they lose when you swtich to fire). I think the default is no improved scorch on target in the spreadsheet.
#2271SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1clavarnway
The dps difference between Fire and Shadow Destruction on the spreadsheet may not be mirrored in game play - Shadow Destruction, you just spam Shadow Bolt to match spreadsheet DPS, for Fire Destruction you have to make sure Immolate always hits as soon as it expires, and every Incinerate that hits has an Immolate on the target when it hits. Doesn't sound like much, but I raided as Affliction for a long ass time, and I'm very familiar with how being human can reduce dps from the spreadsheet.

Has anybody had any experience speccing Fire and trying it out, and seeing actual results? I would like to see how people are doing compared to their spreadsheet DPS as Fire.
#2272SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by clavarnway View Post
The dps difference between Fire and Shadow Destruction on the spreadsheet may not be mirrored in game play - Shadow Destruction, you just spam Shadow Bolt to match spreadsheet DPS, for Fire Destruction you have to make sure Immolate always hits as soon as it expires, and every Incinerate that hits has an Immolate on the target when it hits. Doesn't sound like much, but I raided as Affliction for a long ass time, and I'm very familiar with how being human can reduce dps from the spreadsheet.

Has anybody had any experience speccing Fire and trying it out, and seeing actual results? I would like to see how people are doing compared to their spreadsheet DPS as Fire.
I respecced and am currently testing it.

I did a ZA run as shadow destro, and since we had no shadow priests the next day, I tried it as fire destro. In both runs we got a boar mount.

I did somewhat less good with fire, but I can easily attribute it to me not being used to the spec. Another factor in ZA is trash. Having to start with Immolate is very inefficient on stuff that dies in seconds. I'm mentioning it because I thought that since Fire Destro can go both Shadow and Fire, I figured it'd be more versatile in 5/10mans where one of those is usually gimped due to no SP or Fire Mage present. Fire is not effective on things that are not worth Immolating.

It is however, not trivial to time your spells around Immolate. Where I used to be able to focus on timing my SB perfectly and watching what's going on with the fight, as Fire I had to try and time my Incinerates around my Immolate. Considering the dynamic haste in our ZA run (3 drum people and 3 shamans for Heroism) this wasn't that easy.

Another factor is gear. I had Soulfrost and was using green +59 fire damage boots from the AH to replace [Boots of the Shifting Nightmare].

In short, my experience:
- Playing fire effectively is harder than using Shadow effectively. On farm content this is hardly an issue though.
- It is a major pain to compare them fairly as it requires some regearing.
- Shadow and Fire are decently close, which shows good design on Blizzard's part.

I'm currently trying to rewrite ShadowSeer for 2.4 so I can measure ISB uptime in game accurately. This would help us decide what's better. For now I think both specs are definitely viable and reasonably close no matter what. Even if Fire turns out to be higher overall dps, Shadow definitely has some advantages that would mitigate that.
#2273SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Flamingcloud
Well fire vs shadow was already discussed fairly heavily in the other thread (another spreadsheet thread), and basically concluded there are very few circumstances in which having a fire lock is better, especially if you don't want to spam flame caps. To summarize..

Fire
Pro
- Higher Personal Dps

Con
- CoE always has to be up no matter how many fire mages, thus you always need atleast 3 locks.
- Extra debuff slots for immolates
- Numbers are going to be lower than spreadsheet due to no 100% immolate uptime unless you had more than 1 immo casting lock.
- Sucks if you have an affliction lock and a shadow destro lock, because 1.13 CoS will make shadow better
- Having to farm/buy flame caps
- Decreased isb uptime means that if you have 3 destro locks, probably only 1 can/should go fire
- No Netherprotection or Soul Leech
- paying for a sunfire enchant and getting a new cloak
- Less mana returned for shadowpriests due to less isb uptime
- There is more fire resistant/immune bosses (I know this hardly matters)
- You have to press more than 2 and watch DoTimer
- Higher Threat Generation

Last edited by Flamingcloud : 04/05/08 at 11:49 AM.
#2274SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
ninielin
Well with every single debuff on the target, full bt/hyjal set ( forgot to change sunfire/soulfrost first time) as well as most raid buffs ( aside from no shaman elem) I get 2360 dps as shadow ( casting CoE 3 locks in our usual raid setup) and 2497 with fire. Considering you won't get as much due to the human factor, I don't really think its worth it unless your raid has almost no warlock/spriest.

Running with 3 locks and 2 spriest fire is definitely not a viable option.


edit: the fire number include 1.13 CoE which in practice isn't really going to happens. using 1.1 I get 2395 dps I.E next to no dps boost ( and a fair dps loss when you consider ISB )

Last edited by ninielin : 04/05/08 at 12:29 PM.
#2275SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Given all this I think it's fair to assess that with a high amount of spriests/warlocks in the raid (3+), it's probably best to stick with Shadow. While additional shadow destro locks will have diminishing returns on ISB uptime, that is compensated by the fact it affects more sources. Upping ISB uptime by 5% for 5 people is the same as upping it by 25% for just one. Until given solid evidence to the contrary, I'm going to assume Shadow wins through scaling better with extra shadow users.

They require significantly different gear choices. Fire destro will see a lot less benefit on crit gear, probably wanting to focus more on haste after capping hit. Not to mention school specific enchants and items.

Assuming two affliction warlocks is not realistic, so you can have either 13% CoE or 13% CoS.

my conclusion: the difference is not that high and dependent on gear and raid setup, but with high amounts of Shadow Users, shadow will win out in overall dps and synergy.
#2276SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1PSGarak
It's basically dependent on the ratio of shadow priests to total shadow casters, not the number of shadow casters overall. If you have no shadow priests, and enough warlocks that an ISB proc won't last the full 12 seconds anyways, uptime becomes extremely resilient to adding more warlocks: adding one with the raid-average crit has 0 effect, and adding one with lower crit chance will lower it. When you add in shadow priests, you now have shadow casters that eat more charges than they put up, so having more casters that put them up will actually affect uptime (this assumes they cast mind blast and shadow word: death).
#2277SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1jendead
99% lurker here, but I've been having a hard time figuring out how to adjust my gear (yes, I use the spreadsheet). So far, my biggest problem has been trying to balance around +hit, and a few little quirks here and there.

As my armory will point out, I'm still using a [Neltharion's Tear] and glove socket for hit.. I know this is bad. I have a few items in the bank that I can swap around: [Blue Suede Shoes], [Quagmirran's Eye], and a crapton of badges for an Icon or phase 3 stuff. The next few items in my future are: Malefic belt or boots, new Eng helm, or alc stone.

Anyway, my question is trinket related, because I think I can figure the other stuff out on my own.

A few pages back, someone posted how the Icon is known to be better than the Eye.. but in the spreadsheet, the Eye beats the Icon by 5dps, and the Alchemist stone by 11dps. Kind of disheartening, as I've been working on SSO rep but it doesn't even seem worth it. Why is the Icon better? Is it due to being able to control the click effect? Is the Stone seriously that inferior to the Eye? I don't know if I should just blindly follow the DPS number in the spreadsheet and pick the highest possible combination or not. I also haven't found a clear answer on how having 2 clickable trinkets will work (AFAIK, using one activates a CD on the other, but only for the duration of the effect?).

It seems like a really obvious thing that I should know, but I'd rather not buy the Icon and find out I can't use it.. or that I should have just switched the Eye in

Thanks for any advice, this thread is like my bible :p
#2278SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
When comparing items with procs I would carefully verify the proc is properly modeled. It had been tested on these forums (not by me!) already that quag's eye has a 45s hidden cooldown which isn't listed on wowhead. So if you just model it based on the wowhead data it'll look a lot more powerful than it's supposed to be. Unless there's some mistake here, the eye should lose out clearly (but not by a huge margin as far as I remember) to the icon and darkmoon card, not to mention hex shrunken head, so shoot for those 2 of those 3 trinkets until you can get your hands on a skull of gul'dan.

As for nelthalion's tear, it's so bad it's worth gemming hit just so you don't have to use it. It's at a similar level to a scryer's bloodgem - both of these items don't really need to be used due to how easy it is to gem hit insetad. The day you get a skull of gul'dan of course you can regem back to spell damage. Hopefully you don't have +12s in all your sockets yet
#2279SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Carnate
Quagmirran's Eye shows up stronger due to the spread sheet adding ISB damage from the crit. Icon is better personal dps but may fall behind on raid dps. I would just save up for skull instead of going for Icon.

At your gear level you should not be using Tear or blue trinkets, as said already gemming for it is best. The reason you fall behind at hit is that big goose egg on the staff. But it is a good reason.
#2280SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by jendead View Post
I also haven't found a clear answer on how having 2 clickable trinkets will work (AFAIK, using one activates a CD on the other, but only for the duration of the effect?
That's exactly how it works. I personally am looking for a second trinket that doesn't have an on use cause I find annoying. Currently using ZA trinket and the Icon. As far the advice, I'd definitely say the Icon is better, but also consider the new one from MGT, depending on your spec.
#2281SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Nas
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
That's exactly how it works. I personally am looking for a second trinket that doesn't have an on use cause I find annoying. Currently using ZA trinket and the Icon. As far the advice, I'd definitely say the Icon is better, but also consider the new one from MGT, depending on your spec.
I am under the impression that the MGT trinket proc may consume ISBs, is that the case from your testing? If so, do you think it is still a good choice to have given the fact?

Secondly, my guild is going to be working on Brutallus for the first time tonight - we only have two Warlocks attending, one of which is going to be in the MT group as Affliction, and only 1 Shadow Priest, on the other side is two Fire Mages, which makes Fire Destro with CoE the obvious choice. To be honest this is the first time I've given Fire Destro a serious go in a raid since the Karazhan days, so I figured I would ask what other Fire Locks have been doing on Brutallus, have you been giving priority to Immolate over Incinerate and casting it whenver it's about to run out (this is assuming someone else is keeping up Immolate anyway, so the only reason you'd cast it is for its damage, not the boost it gives Incinirate) - or have you just been Incinerate spamming and refreshing Immolate whenever you felt it was falling off?

Hours of Dr Boom somehow gave me the impression that straight up Incinerate spamming with another lock keeping up Immolate is better DPS, but I thought I'd ask people who have actually put this into practice.

Another thing is what I have been hearing about Brutallus having high resistance to Fire - is it Resistant enough to make having Spell Penetration to cloak on my "fire cloak" a DPS boost? Thanks.
#2282SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Krazen
Originally Posted by Nas View Post
I am under the impression that the MGT trinket proc may consume ISBs, is that the case from your testing? If so, do you think it is still a good choice to have given the fact?

Secondly, my guild is going to be working on Brutallus for the first time tonight - we only have two Warlocks attending, one of which is going to be in the MT group as Affliction, and only 1 Shadow Priest, on the other side is two Fire Mages, which makes Fire Destro with CoE the obvious choice. To be honest this is the first time I've given Fire Destro a serious go in a raid since the Karazhan days, so I figured I would ask what other Fire Locks have been doing on Brutallus, have you been giving priority to Immolate over Incinerate and casting it whenver it's about to run out (this is assuming someone else is keeping up Immolate anyway, so the only reason you'd cast it is for its damage, not the boost it gives Incinirate) - or have you just been Incinerate spamming and refreshing Immolate whenever you felt it was falling off?

Hours of Dr Boom somehow gave me the impression that straight up Incinerate spamming with another lock keeping up Immolate is better DPS, but I thought I'd ask people who have actually put this into practice.

Another thing is what I have been hearing about Brutallus having high resistance to Fire - is it Resistant enough to make having Spell Penetration to cloak on my "fire cloak" a DPS boost? Thanks.
Immo should be a superior dpct under most circumstances, or at least comparable. I would be very cautious not to clip it, but I would still cast it in your rotation.
#2283SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Nas
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
Immo should be a superior dpct under most circumstances, or at least comparable. I would be very cautious not to clip it, but I would still cast it in your rotation.
Yeah that is what surprised me - I knew that Immo was better DPCT, however as I said I spent a fair bit of time on Dr. Boom and the results were in favor of Incinerate - maybe it was due to the DPM when I was not raid buffed at all, perhaps it has something to do with Incinerate's superior scaling with crit. I am sure I had 100% immolate uptime, without clipping any of them along with optimal lifetap timing, still Incinerate won in the end. Has anyone else noticed that? Or should I expect it to change with raid buffs (although I don't see how, more crit and damage would further favor Incinerate with Ruin and SnF).
#2284SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
jendead
Originally Posted by Carnate View Post
Quagmirran's Eye shows up stronger due to the spread sheet adding ISB damage from the crit. Icon is better personal dps but may fall behind on raid dps. I would just save up for skull instead of going for Icon.

At your gear level you should not be using Tear or blue trinkets, as said already gemming for it is best. The reason you fall behind at hit is that big goose egg on the staff. But it is a good reason.
Unfortunately, saving up for a Skull might not be an option for quite some time.. if at all. I don't know if we'll be going back to BT - everyone is completely burnt on it so attendance would be pretty rough. I'm hoping people will be open to the idea once Sunwell is a bit smoother. Hoping to down Brutallus tomorrow and start working on Felmyst.

Also, we use EPGP which is not conducive to saving up for a specific item.. not going to threadjack with my thoughts about it though. :o

Me getting a skull is practically a guild joke at this point.. we have bad luck with those things (popped 3, but 1 retired and 1 gquit already)

Last edited by jendead : 04/06/08 at 1:54 AM. Reason: forgot something :o
#2285SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Vazu
I realize with spreadsheets being available and so forth that I risk being stoned to death for asking this, but here goes.

We currently raid with 2 shadow Priests and on many nights 1 affliction Warlock and 3 destro Warlocks. With that much shadow damage being thrown around, between ISB uptime and so forth, I'm curious about the new gems. I have an opportunity to regem all of my gear very soon. I'm getting rid of the crit/spellpower stuff and I can't decide basically between 10 spell haste gems in all of my yellow slots or 5 haste/6 spellpower. The math says 10 haste, but I'm curious to hear from the community here. Is there a good arguement for either based on raid composition? Basically it's 110 spell haste or 66 spellpower/55 spell haste. Is the 110 option better for a raid with 2 shadow Priests, an affliction Warlock and 3 destro Warlocks?

(I also have a Skull of Gul'dan and I'm a LW with Drums of Battle. If that matters in terms of hitting the 1.5 second GCD wall for spamming Shadowbolt.)

Last edited by Vazu : 04/06/08 at 5:04 AM.
#2286SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Krazen
Originally Posted by Vazu View Post
I realize with spreadsheets being available and so forth that I risk being stoned to death for asking this, but here goes.

We currently raid with 2 shadow Priests and on many nights 1 affliction Warlock and 3 destro Warlocks. With that much shadow damage being thrown around, between ISB uptime and so forth, I'm curious about the new gems. I have an opportunity to regem all of my gear very soon. I'm getting rid of the crit/spellpower stuff and I can't decide basically between 10 spell haste gems in all of my yellow slots or 5 haste/6 spellpower. The math says 10 haste, but I'm curious to hear from the community here. Is there a good arguement for either based on raid composition? Basically it's 110 spell haste or 66 spellpower/55 spell haste. Is the 110 option better for a raid with 2 shadow Priests, an affliction Warlock and 3 destro Warlocks?

(I also have a Skull of Gul'dan and I'm a LW with Drums of Battle. If that matters in terms of hitting the 1.5 second GCD wall for spamming Shadowbolt.)
If you're putting 12 dmg in your red sockets, 5 haste/6 dmg is the logical choice for your yellows. Ultimately, 5 haste v 6 damage is close enough with most t6 gear sets that I would rather have the damage.

Sunwell loot has an abundance of haste rating, and not a whole lot more of +dmg. Haste does have some negative scaling, and I figure going for more haste = more lifetaps, and I'd rather avoid that.

Is it worth regemming everything? Probably wouldn't use guild gems, but if you have badges, knock yourself out.
#2287SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Gumibear
Originally Posted by Vazu View Post
I realize with spreadsheets being available and so forth that I risk being stoned to death for asking this, but here goes.

We currently raid with 2 shadow Priests and on many nights 1 affliction Warlock and 3 destro Warlocks. With that much shadow damage being thrown around, between ISB uptime and so forth, I'm curious about the new gems. I have an opportunity to regem all of my gear very soon. I'm getting rid of the crit/spellpower stuff and I can't decide basically between 10 spell haste gems in all of my yellow slots or 5 haste/6 spellpower. The math says 10 haste, but I'm curious to hear from the community here. Is there a good arguement for either based on raid composition? Basically it's 110 spell haste or 66 spellpower/55 spell haste. Is the 110 option better for a raid with 2 shadow Priests, an affliction Warlock and 3 destro Warlocks?

(I also have a Skull of Gul'dan and I'm a LW with Drums of Battle. If that matters in terms of hitting the 1.5 second GCD wall for spamming Shadowbolt.)
I've seen that the difference between spell haste gems and damage gems is so close that gemming reds will make the spreadsheet tell you yellows are better, and gemming yellows will make the the spreadsheet say reds are better. I think this is one of the few times we can say go with personal preference.
#2288SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1 frmorrison
I am doing 5 haste 6 damage for yellows (on new gear, keeping the crit/damage ones I have now), I wouldn't do 10 haste because the increase in number of Life Taps, damage per mana is important as well.
#2289SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1 Eph
Originally Posted by Vazu View Post
(I also have a Skull of Gul'dan and I'm a LW with Drums of Battle. If that matters in terms of hitting the 1.5 second GCD wall for spamming Shadowbolt.)
Isn't it 1 second now?
#2290SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Thanahtos
Originally Posted by Eph View Post
Isn't it 1 second now?
Yes, it is 1 second.
#2291SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1TommiHelm
Hi. I wasnt sure if I should post this in the spreadsheet thread or here, but I hope this is right. The questions are really more in general about haste and destruction.

I'm a regular 0/21/40 warlock and my gear is mostly mostly Karazhan (T4) level with a few SSC/TK pieces, like the T5 shoulders which is what my question is about. We got a couple of Mantle of Nimble Thought patterns when we tried farming some Hyjal trash tonight.

I plotted my gear into the spreadsheet (with gems and every buff I use in raids), and I was a bit surprised that the T5 shoulders came out at 4-5 DPS higher than the Hyjal pattern. I can see the pattern have less potential stats (less crit rating mainly, and of course 2 sockets less), but shouldnt that much haste rating be really good for a destruction warlock?

I assume the spreadsheet is right of course, but would it still be wise for the warlocks in the community to make these for the future? Will they be better once we start getting T6 quality gear in other slots? I always assumed Tier 6 would fill the shoulder slot eventually.

Cheers.
#2292SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1rochan
That about sums it up flamingcloud. I don't know why people are still adamant about fire spec, it is 100x more difficult to play due to both reasons you can and can't control.

Tommihelm the T5 shoulders are better because you need the +hit. Generally you'd only use Nimble thought once you are hitcapped, say trading the T5 or T6 shoulders for them (but really no one uses the shoulders of nimble thought).
#2293SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1TommiHelm
Ah of course. I entered the gear I use on trash, not what I use on bosses. I do have the gear to be hit capped on bosses even if I swap the shoulders for Nimble Thought. I tried that in the spreadsheet and get a 20 DPS increase from swapping to Nimble Thought actually now.

So then it is worth making them I guess? But you say noone really uses them? So the "optimal" way to go on T6 level is using haste in other slots instead?

Cheers.
#2294SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Anedris
Basically, if your guild is planning ahead they will have noticed that they need 150 hearts of darkness to beat Shahraz (not literally, some people can get by with less than cap, or can scrounge a lot of greens, but that's a good mark to shoot for). This means that you won't have any spare hearts for a long time, and by the time you do t6 shoulders will be just around the corner (plus the ones from Anetheron will be available - unsure how they compare).
#2295SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by TommiHelm View Post
Ah of course. I entered the gear I use on trash, not what I use on bosses. I do have the gear to be hit capped on bosses even if I swap the shoulders for Nimble Thought. I tried that in the spreadsheet and get a 20 DPS increase from swapping to Nimble Thought actually now.

So then it is worth making them I guess? But you say noone really uses them? So the "optimal" way to go on T6 level is using haste in other slots instead?

Cheers.
I have them, I learned the pattern when I misread them being bop. They're not bad but definitely not super either.

The only thing that will provide a major difference to you at your gear level is the 4p T6 set bonus. Anything else will be small upgrades (that combined make a difference, obviously). Unfortunately, the T6 piece in MH/BT aren't that good by themselves.
#2296SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Thanahtos
Originally Posted by TommiHelm View Post
Ah of course. I entered the gear I use on trash, not what I use on bosses. I do have the gear to be hit capped on bosses even if I swap the shoulders for Nimble Thought. I tried that in the spreadsheet and get a 20 DPS increase from swapping to Nimble Thought actually now.

So then it is worth making them I guess? But you say noone really uses them? So the "optimal" way to go on T6 level is using haste in other slots instead?

Cheers.
Basically, if you can either procure your own Hearts or have your guild provide them, a 20 DPS increase is very nice. However, Hatefury Mantle (from Anetheron) is around equal to them and as Anedris said, you could use those Hearts for resist gear to get your tier 6 shoulders.
#2297SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
I am doing 5 haste 6 damage for yellows (on new gear, keeping the crit/damage ones I have now), I wouldn't do 10 haste because the increase in number of Life Taps, damage per mana is important as well.
Well I have 165 haste atm, and I only lifetapped on our Brutallus kill 6 times, and it would have been less if my spriest didn't die at 20%.. Thats a bad reason for not doing 10haste.. Also lionseye are easier to get then pyrestone atm in my guild anyways.
#2298SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Painton
I had two quick questions:

First about warlock spell rotation ( yes I read the former pages)

Today I found I got more dps as affliction by using Cos>UA>corr>immo>SL the entire raid rather than use CoA. Is this a poor choice? my spec can be found here :

The World of Warcraft Armory

too add, I don't have maxed hit, it's sitting at 155 atm. Would this also be a large part of the dps lost when using CoA? There was only one other destrolock in the raid.


Second, is there anyway I would be able to stay affliction going into endgame raids? Or does the gear scale too poorly with affliction? Thanks.
#2299SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Painton View Post
I had two quick questions:

First about warlock spell rotation ( yes I read the former pages)

Today I found I got more dps as affliction by using Cos>UA>corr>immo>SL the entire raid rather than use CoA. Is this a poor choice? my spec can be found here :

The World of Warcraft Armory

too add, I don't have maxed hit, it's sitting at 155 atm. Would this also be a large part of the dps lost when using CoA? There was only one other destrolock in the raid.


Second, is there anyway I would be able to stay affliction going into endgame raids? Or does the gear scale too poorly with affliction? Thanks.
Your spec is a pvp spec, or somesuch. If you want to optimal raid performance, get 5/5 Shadow Embrace, and 3/3 Malediction. You're choosing the gimped dps tree, at least get the talents that are useful for the raid.

Affliction is viable, given those two talents.

Use 13% CoS on everything the raid is dpsing, CoA is ok on offtanked stuff if you like.

Last edited by Arelenda : 04/07/08 at 4:26 AM.
#2300SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Parzifal
Originally Posted by Nicarras View Post
You dont have the gear for Destruction. For a raid you are actually hurting ISB by having your crit so low, and it gets magnified by each shadow priest you have in the raid with you as well.

Your best bet would be to spec UA for your 5/10 mans and that way juggling dots and random SB filler should keep you a little more manageable on your threat issues. Heck even PVE felguard would work, granted PVE felguard you still want a decent amount crit, which you are lacking.

You did find a problem though, it is very easy to scale our damage very quickly at 70. Its just all the other stats you need to work on now....hit/crit/stam/int, thats basically all you gain until you start getting into haste gear.

I remember waiting for tanks to 'catch up' in gear so I wouldnt be so threat capped...it sucked, but they do catch up
Thanks for the feedback. Crit is something that I'm starting to think about now. I plan on getting the Demonsoul Robes and Boots of Blasting, which will help that cause. My equipment improved over the weekend and I now have about 1470 shadow self-buffed (food, oil, fel armor).

According to the spreadsheet, UA spec is about a +5 dps change from 21/40... but that assumes perfect DoT timing and all DoTs going to the last tick, right? In practice, when I was UA specced, my dps just wasn't good at all -- and the spec isn't good for farming or PVP, imho.

I switched to 7/43/11 demo this weekend and was blown away by how superior the spec is for farming. I can literally send the felguard in, do the two instant cast DoTs while I'm looking for another target, repeat, and then clean up the loot after 3-4 creatures. For the first time in a long time, I need bigger bags for all the junk that drops! The raw dps isn't really that much better -- but my dots and pet are still doing damage while I'm looking for targets and cleaning up loot -- making the spec MUCH faster for farming. In fact, amusingly, I end up using Drain Life at times since it ticks for about the same as a netherweave bandage, and as such, keeps me from having to stop to heal after the fight.

It's about the same dps in an instance from what I've seen so far, though far better on trash and much easier to control threat with on bosses. The only disadvantage as noted here before is that micromanaging the pet is important -- but it's also fun (being a shadowbolt turret is only so entertaining).

The worst issue I have now with it is replenishing my demon's mana - the felguard goes through mana very quickly. Although I have 1/3 mana feed, he needs mana more often than I need to lifetap. Any suggestions?

As a final comedic note - it's amazing how people squirm after someone posts a dps meter to raid chat, isn't it?
#2301SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1clavarnway
From what I've gathered by talking to people who've been Demonology, they just summon a new Felguard when the old one is OOM. They also have 1 point in mana feed, to keep his mana up during raids.

If your Destruction DPS via the spreadsheet is only 5 dps less than UA dps on the spreadsheet, you're better off going Destruction (based on my experience). Human error plays a pretty big part in bringing UA down from the spreadsheet DPS, though that amount varies from person to person and encounter to encounter.
#2302SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1rutiene
Originally Posted by clavarnway View Post
From what I've gathered by talking to people who've been Demonology, they just summon a new Felguard when the old one is OOM. They also have 1 point in mana feed, to keep his mana up during raids.

If your Destruction DPS via the spreadsheet is only 5 dps less than UA dps on the spreadsheet, you're better off going Destruction (based on my experience). Human error plays a pretty big part in bringing UA down from the spreadsheet DPS, though that amount varies from person to person and encounter to encounter.
This would be highly dependent on the fight. Since most of the higher end bosses (that I have encountered at least) require quite a bit of mobility, I would argue that UA is easier to keep up due to the fact that most of the spells have a much lower cast time than Destruction, including three instant casts. My main issue when I specced destruction was trying to find a place where I could spam Shadowbolt, and I sincerely felt this restriction had a negative effect on my DPS.
#2303SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Nicarras
Originally Posted by Parzifal View Post
Thanks for the feedback. Crit is something that I'm starting to think about now. I plan on getting the Demonsoul Robes and Boots of Blasting, which will help that cause. My equipment improved over the weekend and I now have about 1470 shadow self-buffed (food, oil, fel armor).

According to the spreadsheet, UA spec is about a +5 dps change from 21/40... but that assumes perfect DoT timing and all DoTs going to the last tick, right? In practice, when I was UA specced, my dps just wasn't good at all -- and the spec isn't good for farming or PVP, imho.

I switched to 7/43/11 demo this weekend and was blown away by how superior the spec is for farming. I can literally send the felguard in, do the two instant cast DoTs while I'm looking for another target, repeat, and then clean up the loot after 3-4 creatures. For the first time in a long time, I need bigger bags for all the junk that drops! The raw dps isn't really that much better -- but my dots and pet are still doing damage while I'm looking for targets and cleaning up loot -- making the spec MUCH faster for farming. In fact, amusingly, I end up using Drain Life at times since it ticks for about the same as a netherweave bandage, and as such, keeps me from having to stop to heal after the fight.

It's about the same dps in an instance from what I've seen so far, though far better on trash and much easier to control threat with on bosses. The only disadvantage as noted here before is that micromanaging the pet is important -- but it's also fun (being a shadowbolt turret is only so entertaining).

The worst issue I have now with it is replenishing my demon's mana - the felguard goes through mana very quickly. Although I have 1/3 mana feed, he needs mana more often than I need to lifetap. Any suggestions?

As a final comedic note - it's amazing how people squirm after someone posts a dps meter to raid chat, isn't it?
Cool, as always play what is fun for you!

Although be careful with trying to fine some 'perfect' spec that allows you to PvE/PvP/Grind and do all of them really well. It doesnt really exist...especially if you play your Lock a lot, 'cause you'll see the differences in spec's even more.

PvP I'll spec SL/SL or Felguard/Sburn
PvE I'll spec shadow or fire dest
Grinding I can pull off in my PvE spec well enough (even better if I two box with my priest behind me), but if I want to power solo grind...Affliction is the best.

As for the mana problems of your pet...I'm not sure, I've never really raided with a Felguard, I guess you could switch the spec around to have 2/3 Feed. Aside from that are you just leaving all his spells on autocast?
#2304SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Parzifal
Two good things here: Il'l have to try resummoning the felguard after he's OOM and yes, I have been leaving his spells on autocast (I didn't think about either of these things). After using the quick-summon talent once, though, I wonder if it's really faster to resummon or just to tap and bandage. As for leaving his spells on autocast, this is probably a noobish mistake for my first time with demo. Are there any that I can leave off that would make a big difference without adversely affecting his dps/utility?

Nicarras, you're right about there not being a panacea spec... I really just want something that I can use at least for raid/instance and farming work without having to respec. Now that I think about it, it's been so long since I was heavy aff, it probably is great for a similar kind of grind that demo is good for (though I wonder if blueberry's toughness is a problem since the Felguard can take hits from 4 mobs for a little while without dying).
#2305SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Nicarras
Yeah when I grind as Aff I grind with an Imp out and drain tank like 4-5 mobs, tada dead.

Intercept you can turn off...so when you send him it hes not doing anything, plus you really only need that stun in pvp/grinding.

Was Felguard Cleave fixed in the patch in regards to breaking CC? I havent spec'd that way since the patch.
#2306SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Deathwing
Originally Posted by Nicarras View Post
Yeah when I grind as Aff I grind with an Imp out and drain tank like 4-5 mobs, tada dead.

Intercept you can turn off...so when you send him it hes not doing anything, plus you really only need that stun in pvp/grinding.

Was Felguard Cleave fixed in the patch in regards to breaking CC? I havent spec'd that way since the patch.
Only thing that stuck that way was Avenger's Shield. Everything else was reverted.
#2307SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
Ah of course. I entered the gear I use on trash, not what I use on bosses. I do have the gear to be hit capped on bosses even if I swap the shoulders for Nimble Thought. I tried that in the spreadsheet and get a 20 DPS increase from swapping to Nimble Thought actually now.
Remember it's not nescessarily a 20 DPS increase. To gain the hit you're losing from T5 you're losing spell damage and/or other stats elsewhere, so in reality the DPS increase is quite lower than 20 DPS (and possibly even a decrease but most likely not). Therefore you have to see how much DPS you could gain from the hit on T5 and substract that from the 20 DPS gain on mantle of nimble thought.

At the end nobody uses it because of heart cost and the fact you're going to need 4pcT6, and at least pre-2.4 you could only get away with 1 non-T6 piece, and having the chest from vashj, legs from archimonde or helm from illidan are all going to serve you better and require you to wear T6 shoulders anyway. Even after 2.4 you can simply use more than just 1 of those 3 items and still use T6 which will be better than using nimble thought. So save the hearts for shadow resist and once that is done with use them for bracers of nible thought and other more useful items.

Originally Posted by Parzifal View Post
According to the spreadsheet, UA spec is about a +5 dps change from 21/40... but that assumes perfect DoT timing and all DoTs going to the last tick, right? In practice, when I was UA specced, my dps just wasn't good at all -- and the spec isn't good for farming or PVP, imho.
No, it is assuming that the dot-gap in game is the same as the dot-gap you entered on the spreadsheet in the appropriate field. By defualt this is set to 2 seconds which is probably quite higher than what you should get if you try hard enough, so in reality your dps should be a little higher than the DPS the spreadsheet lists for affliction.
#2308SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Deathwing
Dot gap in the spreadsheet is at 1 second. Can someone explain what exactly dot gap is? I've always assumed it was the mathematical model of "human" error causing dots to not be reapplied immediately after they end.
#2309SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
DoTs don't only delay because of human error, they also delay becuase of shadowbolt's casting time, other DoTs' casting time and the GCD.
#2310SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Vlar
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Remember it's not nescessarily a 20 DPS increase. To gain the hit you're losing from T5 you're losing spell damage and/or other stats elsewhere, so in reality the DPS increase is quite lower than 20 DPS (and possibly even a decrease but most likely not). Therefore you have to see how much DPS you could gain from the hit on T5 and substract that from the 20 DPS gain on mantle of nimble thought.

At the end nobody uses it because of heart cost and the fact you're going to need 4pcT6, and at least pre-2.4 you could only get away with 1 non-T6 piece, and having the chest from vashj, legs from archimonde or helm from illidan are all going to serve you better and require you to wear T6 shoulders anyway. Even after 2.4 you can simply use more than just 1 of those 3 items and still use T6 which will be better than using nimble thought. So save the hearts for shadow resist and once that is done with use them for bracers of nible thought and other more useful items.
I made mine while we thought that it would take us a while to get that far... then less then a month later we were 4/5 MH and 4/9 BT, so no other hearts were given out (that and the fact that we got lucky with a crapload on the first night, without having another night like that again).

That would be easy to test with the spread sheet, I did a quick test on the T6 level gear, lowered the hit til I hit 202 with the T5 shoulders, and then switched to the haste ones, regemming with same quality gems (blue for blue, purple for purple) and found a 5 dps difference. This is with BT quality gems in the T5, since those should be widely available soon. With out regemming, I saw a 17 dps difference.

If we had realized how much the hearts would be needed and how crappy the drop rate really is, I never would have made them, but they are technically an upgrade (Although, if you wanted to make a spell haste set for fun, they would work well).
#2311SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Cronjob
Originally Posted by rutiene View Post
This would be highly dependent on the fight. Since most of the higher end bosses (that I have encountered at least) require quite a bit of mobility, I would argue that UA is easier to keep up due to the fact that most of the spells have a much lower cast time than Destruction, including three instant casts. My main issue when I specced destruction was trying to find a place where I could spam Shadowbolt, and I sincerely felt this restriction had a negative effect on my DPS.
Depends on gear really. Movement doesnt matter much when you are hitting 8-10k bolts back to back to back, in fact it helps a bit because you drop in aggro a bit. Also trinket/group setup will boost a destro lock more than a affliction lock. Blood lust, Shadow sissy
#2312SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Jadari
Hi there =)

I have used the spreadsheet extensively, but I still have some questions. 0/21/40.

I see all the Sunwell warlocks using pure 10 haste gems, however, my spreadsheet says

Rune Crimson Spinel is worth 10.35 DPS
Reckless Pyrestone is worth 10.31
Quick Lionseye is worth 10.26

I'm just entering BT, but have the absolute best before that, I think. Why does my SS say the opposite of what I'm always told / always observe people using.

The same people telling me to use +10 Haste tell me to use the spreadsheet, which tells me NOT to use +10 haste. Also, should I be using Forceful (haste/stamina) gems instead of Glowing gems now? For socket bonuses.

Last edited by Jadari : 04/07/08 at 5:31 PM.
#2313SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
Affliction builds live by their DoTs, as for 1.5s cast UA/corruption are in the 4k damage area, but can only be casted every 18 seconds. Immolate and SL are also good damage per cast time but can't be casted often. Your shadowbolts are significantly less DPCT.
So taking it to the extreme, if you only have time to UA/corruption, affliction will definitely always win. If you just stand still at all time, at all reasonably high gear levels, destruction wins hands down.
Therefore there's a certain amount of movement in a fight that would be the break-even point between affliction and destruction. As it seems though, at the higher gear levels at least, that the movement is simply not nearly intensive enough to hurt destruction enough to go under affliction's DPS. And at the lower gear levels affliction warlocks seem to simply not be skilled enough to take full advantage of their DPS (you hear every so often that kara/gruul-farming warlock that gained 200-300 DPS by switching to destruction even though for his gear the specs should be more or less equal DPS).
#2314SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by Jadari View Post
Hi there =)

I have used the spreadsheet extensively, but I still have some questions. 0/21/40.

I see all the Sunwell warlocks using pure 10 haste gems, however, my spreadsheet says

Rune Crimson Spinel is worth 10.35 DPS
Reckless Pyrestone is worth 10.31
Quick Lionseye is worth 10.26

I'm just entering BT, but have the absolute best before that, I think. Why does my SS say the opposite of what I'm always told / always observe people using.

The same people telling me to use +10 Haste tell me to use the spreadsheet, which tells me NOT to use +10 haste. Also, should I be using Forceful (haste/stamina) gems instead of Glowing gems now? For socket bonuses.
It might be because those guys have tons better gear than you do. For them haste might be better.

The difference isn't that big in the first place, so you can see how a different gear setup would alter the relative values. I haven't checked this out myself, but I'm guessing that'd be the answer.
#2315SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Jadari
Hmm, that makes a ton more sense. I'm confuzzled as to what I should do still, perhaps I'll just stick with 10 haste.
#2316SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1LockApologist
In general, the relative value of crit, haste, and damage fluctuates based on your current gear. However, as you enter BT/MH, Lionseye will likely be a low demand gem, while spinels and pyrestones are much higher demand. When you've been farming for months (and when your realm gets the anvil), it won't really matter.
#2317SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Vlar
Originally Posted by Jadari View Post
Hi there =)

I have used the spreadsheet extensively, but I still have some questions. 0/21/40.

I see all the Sunwell warlocks using pure 10 haste gems, however, my spreadsheet says

Rune Crimson Spinel is worth 10.35 DPS
Reckless Pyrestone is worth 10.31
Quick Lionseye is worth 10.26

I'm just entering BT, but have the absolute best before that, I think. Why does my SS say the opposite of what I'm always told / always observe people using.

The same people telling me to use +10 Haste tell me to use the spreadsheet, which tells me NOT to use +10 haste. Also, should I be using Forceful (haste/stamina) gems instead of Glowing gems now? For socket bonuses.

Perhaps I am blind, but I see that your posting toon is a warrior, and I don't see a link to your warlock. A view of your armory, while narrow would provide a better understanding than "but have the absolute best before that, I think."

I would say go by the spreadsheet, it should start leaning more towards haste as +spell damage increases.
#2318SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by Jadari View Post
Hmm, that makes a ton more sense. I'm confuzzled as to what I should do still, perhaps I'll just stick with 10 haste.
They're less than 1% apart, and they're gems. A minor difference on an item that makes minor difference in the first place will not make any measurable difference. Get whatever your guild can part with, there's usually shortage on the red ones, or go with your personal preference if you have a choice.

No offense, but I think you're losing sight of the big picture here. Raid dps is in the 10-20k ballpark, and you're fussing over 0.1dps difference. I understand wanting to min-max, but if you're looking to boost raid success there's probably other areas that could be improved.
#2319SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Christian
130% Aggro-Rule

Hey guys, i have a question concerning the 130% aggro-rule and bt/mh/sunwell-bosses. As of now, my dps is severely crippled by my raid not allowing me to go over the 100% aggro-line, which, of course, the tank holds. Now i know that you don't get the boss attacking you as long as you don't go over 130% of the tanks aggro, however, my raidlead insists that you still make the boss use it's special abilities in a different way when having between 101% and 129% aggro. an example would be azgalor, where the boss-tank could get this doom-like curse which kills you instantly after some seconds. i highly doubt that.

now my question is this: am i right, that you could go right up to the 130% line and still nothing changes regarding boss, tank and special abilities (let's put bloodboil aside)? if not, which encounters need you to stay below the 100% aggro of the tank? thanks for your help!
#2320SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Anthraxx
Mentioned gems are very close in terms of DPS, but I think you're overlooking one more thing.

After certain amount of haste your latency (faster casts -> more gaps between them) and mana (more casts -> higher mana consumption -> possibly more tapping) might be a significant factor of your dps.

I'd say go 12 dmg wherever you can
#2321SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Fafhrd
Originally Posted by Christian View Post
Hey guys, i have a question concerning the 130% aggro-rule and bt/mh/sunwell-bosses. As of now, my dps is severely crippled by my raid not allowing me to go over the 100% aggro-line, which, of course, the tank holds. Now i know that you don't get the boss attacking you as long as you don't go over 130% of the tanks aggro, however, my raidlead insists that you still make the boss use it's special abilities in a different way when having between 101% and 129% aggro. an example would be azgalor, where the boss-tank could get this doom-like curse which kills you instantly after some seconds. i highly doubt that.

now my question is this: am i right, that you could go right up to the 130% line and still nothing changes regarding boss, tank and special abilities (let's put bloodboil aside)? if not, which encounters need you to stay below the 100% aggro of the tank? thanks for your help!
You are correct, there are no problems with being at 129% tank threat in any bossfight except Prince Malchezaar, where I've heard that the MT could get Enfeeble if you are above his threat. I think that's been fixed though. Your raidleader is wrong.

(However there are some encounters where you might suddenly find yourself in melee range of the boss, and then it can be very bad to be above 110%.)
#2322SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Aphex-
Affliction DPS

Due to the great mix/max efforts that the challenges of Sunwell face our raids, particularly Brutallus, I've taken it upon myself to spec as our guild's affliction warlock, as the benefits of Malediction + Shadow Embrace outweigh (IMO) the benefits of additional DPS from the standard destro bulid. Self sustainability is also a perk, as being to Drain Life for +1000/sec at times is invaluable. Having been disappointed in the amount of DPS an affliction warlock could do with a UA spec while remaining in a tank group with zero synergy(for imp, part of our strategy to max tank HP), I chose to try out a different spec and was surprised at the results.

38/2/21, based on the old-school SM/RUIN builds, takes all the affliction goodies (Malediction, 5/5 Embrace, Dark Pact), along with Ruin and 2/3 improved imp. While my gear at the moment was sub-optimal for the spec (wrong meta, gimp boots), I was able to pull off higher than I expected DPS.
WWS: Wow Web Stats

My question to Sunwell warlocks with an affliction spec: Have you had more success with a UA build or one similar to my own? What kind of DPS numbers should I be aiming for on Brutallus as affliction?

If this has been answered before, or can be answered with the spreadsheet then sorry, but I'm very bad at those kind of things.
#2323SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Shagaire
That's the same spec i used on our first kill but I'm gemmed all haste instead of damage.

Wow Web Stats

The one issue we did have was dots being pushed off during our first few tries so i don't really know if a UA spec would work so well in a DPS race fight.
#2324SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Parzifal
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
And at the lower gear levels affliction warlocks seem to simply not be skilled enough to take full advantage of their DPS (you hear every so often that kara/gruul-farming warlock that gained 200-300 DPS by switching to destruction even though for his gear the specs should be more or less equal DPS).
You're right about this... I was in this situation when I just dinged 70 and was learning my class - went from about 500 to 700-800 dps just by respeccing. Part of the problem, though, was that I was getting advice on dps for Kara in general (trash included) instead of just boss dps. It would have been very interesting to know what my dps was on the bosses since Affliction is no good on trash when your group is clearing them quickly.
#2325SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Chaley
Originally Posted by Aphex- View Post
Due to the great mix/max efforts that the challenges of Sunwell face our raids, particularly Brutallus, I've taken it upon myself to spec as our guild's affliction warlock, as the benefits of Malediction + Shadow Embrace outweigh (IMO) the benefits of additional DPS from the standard destro bulid. Self sustainability is also a perk, as being to Drain Life for +1000/sec at times is invaluable. Having been disappointed in the amount of DPS an affliction warlock could do with a UA spec while remaining in a tank group with zero synergy(for imp, part of our strategy to max tank HP), I chose to try out a different spec and was surprised at the results.

38/2/21, based on the old-school SM/RUIN builds, takes all the affliction goodies (Malediction, 5/5 Embrace, Dark Pact), along with Ruin and 2/3 improved imp. While my gear at the moment was sub-optimal for the spec (wrong meta, gimp boots), I was able to pull off higher than I expected DPS.
WWS: Wow Web Stats

My question to Sunwell warlocks with an affliction spec: Have you had more success with a UA build or one similar to my own? What kind of DPS numbers should I be aiming for on Brutallus as affliction?

If this has been answered before, or can be answered with the spreadsheet then sorry, but I'm very bad at those kind of things.
While I do not have the greatest of the great gear, I've been 38/2/21 for my raid for a long time (just recently switched to destro due to boredom). If you are able to put in good attempts at bosses in Sunwell, you shouldn't be specced for UA any longer as SB crits are far more valuable. On nights where I'm actually putting forth a lot of effort, I'm putting out about 1200 DPS without any group synergy. When I get bloodlust and totems, I can put out 1500-1600 DPS. While I have yet to see the use for an affliction warlock in Sunwell, it was very useful in Hyjal/BT while we were learning the dungeons.
#2326SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by Christian View Post
Hey guys, i have a question concerning the 130% aggro-rule and bt/mh/sunwell-bosses. As of now, my dps is severely crippled by my raid not allowing me to go over the 100% aggro-line, which, of course, the tank holds. Now i know that you don't get the boss attacking you as long as you don't go over 130% of the tanks aggro, however, my raidlead insists that you still make the boss use it's special abilities in a different way when having between 101% and 129% aggro. an example would be azgalor, where the boss-tank could get this doom-like curse which kills you instantly after some seconds. i highly doubt that.

now my question is this: am i right, that you could go right up to the 130% line and still nothing changes regarding boss, tank and special abilities (let's put bloodboil aside)? if not, which encounters need you to stay below the 100% aggro of the tank? thanks for your help!
You are of course assuming that omen isn't a pile of crap atm. Which is of course a bad assumption. I think staying below 100% atm is probably the best thing you can do until there is a threat meter that doesn't suck.
#2327SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Trickykid
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
You are of course assuming that omen isn't a pile of crap atm. Which is of course a bad assumption. I think staying below 100% atm is probably the best thing you can do until there is a threat meter that doesn't suck.
It's fine if people have similar versions. As far as threat is concerned, most fights involve some sort of gimmick that makes it difficult to even get up to the tank's threat. On some fights where there is an ability that ignores the tank, I'm wary of going above 100%, but the rest you should be good to go. The only two I worry about are Teron and Azgalor (which isn't normally a problem since you get silenced).
#2328SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1calisti
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
You are of course assuming that omen isn't a pile of crap atm. Which is of course a bad assumption. I think staying below 100% atm is probably the best thing you can do until there is a threat meter that doesn't suck.
Omen is fairly reliable if the entire raid updates just before raid start time. We've been doing this every raid night for the past week, and it works like a charm. Having everyone on the same version of Omen and Threat-2.0 fixes MOST of the quirkiness with the mod. Yes, its somewhat annoying to do this every raid night, but its worth it.
#2329SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Sardaukar
Originally Posted by Christian View Post
Hey guys, i have a question concerning the 130% aggro-rule and bt/mh/sunwell-bosses. As of now, my dps is severely crippled by my raid not allowing me to go over the 100% aggro-line, which, of course, the tank holds. Now i know that you don't get the boss attacking you as long as you don't go over 130% of the tanks aggro, however, my raidlead insists that you still make the boss use it's special abilities in a different way when having between 101% and 129% aggro. an example would be azgalor, where the boss-tank could get this doom-like curse which kills you instantly after some seconds. i highly doubt that.

now my question is this: am i right, that you could go right up to the 130% line and still nothing changes regarding boss, tank and special abilities (let's put bloodboil aside)? if not, which encounters need you to stay below the 100% aggro of the tank? thanks for your help!
Correct although this would only be the case on fights where the boss actually has an ability like that. Off the top of my head, Archimonde's Air Burst, Teron Gorefiends Ghost thing and Azgalors Doom thing. The rest of the time it shouldn't matter and I'm finding as I start to collect a decent T6 level gear set that I'm pushing threat in the early stages of fights to the point where I'm in the 100% to 120% range until I soul shatter.
#2330SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Morwen
Originally Posted by Aphex- View Post
My question to Sunwell warlocks with an affliction spec: Have you had more success with a UA build or one similar to my own? What kind of DPS numbers should I be aiming for on Brutallus as affliction?
1800 in a tank group is very solid and quite close to spreadsheet conditions, I'm personally impressed by the 370 seconds of effective casting time over 375 seconds of combat. Bonuses like 4T6 and CSD tilt in favor of Ruin. I've been going aff/ruin for Brutallus as well and UA is almost out of the question since even with just corr/siphon as the only affliction warlock I was running into debuff slot issues.

One more thing, the WWS doesn't show imp damage, pets should be immune to Brutallus's abilities and are thus safe to let attack.
#2331SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Vlar
Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
You are correct, there are no problems with being at 129% tank threat in any bossfight except Prince Malchezaar, where I've heard that the MT could get Enfeeble if you are above his threat. I think that's been fixed though. Your raidleader is wrong.

(However there are some encounters where you might suddenly find yourself in melee range of the boss, and then it can be very bad to be above 110%.)

Bosskillers says that Teron Gorefiends Shadow of Death only ignores the highest on the aggro list, is this incorrect?
#2332SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1rochan
Originally Posted by Morwen View Post
1800 in a tank group is very solid and quite close to spreadsheet conditions, I'm personally impressed by the 370 seconds of effective casting time over 375 seconds of combat. Bonuses like 4T6 and CSD tilt in favor of Ruin. I've been going aff/ruin for Brutallus as well and UA is almost out of the question since even with just corr/siphon as the only affliction warlock I was running into debuff slot issues.

One more thing, the WWS doesn't show imp damage, pets should be immune to Brutallus's abilities and are thus safe to let attack.


I was gonna say imp would die to meteor slash but I guess you could just park it behind Brutallus, so that would add a solid 100-150 dps to the affliction bitch? (well maybe less when the imp runs OOM) And you wouldnt be able to use dark pact in that case...tradeoffs.

Our aff warlock (40/0/21, in DPS group with ele sham) did ~1600 DPS.

Also Vlar, we regularly have mages/warlocks pass 100% threat on fights like Teron and never have the tank get the spell cast on him. So I don't know if it really matters.
#2333SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by calisti View Post
Omen is fairly reliable if the entire raid updates just before raid start time. We've been doing this every raid night for the past week, and it works like a charm. Having everyone on the same version of Omen and Threat-2.0 fixes MOST of the quirkiness with the mod. Yes, its somewhat annoying to do this every raid night, but its worth it.
If by fairly reliable you mean has numbers that sort of resemble threat when you do that, yes.. Have you ever successfully ridden a boss at 125% threat in any 2.4 version of omen? My experience with 2.4 omen is you usually pull aggro somewhere between 95-110%.
#2334SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
regarding Omen: yes, I hope it'll be fixed soon. It's annoying as hell. I'll try the updating thing.

regarding 130% treshold: As far as I know, the only boss where you can NOT go over 100% is Prince, and even there I'm not sure that's not been fixed. All other boss you can go up to 130% theoretically (although that'd be pushing it, I'd use Life Tap or Soulshatter when I reach 115% and up)

About 38/2/21: Interesting, can you post it so I can include it in the Compendium? Update: if it wasn't already on there. Embarrassing!
#2335SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
While I know some wierd bosses (not in BC raids, and don't really remember to list) did swap to the top person on the threat list from the tank after using a certain ability, I don't remember anyone complaining of a boss doing something like that in BC. Prince is a special case, he doesn't actually re-target but rather is poorly designed to enfeeble the MT if he's not on top of the threat list - and as far as I know he's the only boss that does that kind of thing in the whole game.

It's better to wipe once and find out you can't go above 100% then do the boss 100 times and every time do a lot less DPS becuase you don't know you can go above 100%. Omen complaints are just silly, if omen messes up it can mess up and make you pull aggro at 100% just as well as 50%, 130% or 150%.
#2336SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Flamingcloud
Well you can't go over 100% in zul'jin phase 1.. Everything in BT/Hyjal should be safe aside from maybe archimonde.. but between pvp trinket on and one fear/burst you probably aren't getting back to 100%.
#2337SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
The reason there's very little data on the few special cases where you can't go over 100% is that those cases are quite rare combined with raid leaders and players as one being afraid to pull the line and go over 100% and see what happens.
#2338SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Clandestine
I'm fairly sure that the boss can switch agro if you go above 110% on any fight with a random secondary target ability.
#2339SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Christian
Thanks for your comments regarding the 130% threat thing. rest assured that it is not just a question für the theorist inside me. I have serious aggro problems on Illidan (although pausing in p1 is not really an issue regarding killing Illidan, it certainly sucks), on ROS p2/p3 (that might be a tank-gearing issue though) and sometimes on bosses where it's purely random if you are in a tank&spank-situation or actually have to adapt some strategy.

So if anyone can give me certain facts, even if it's just regarding certain bosses, i am very grateful. (Malchezzar has not seen me in a while)

Last edited by Christian : Yesterday at 10:37 AM.
#2340SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Roywyn
Originally Posted by Vlar View Post
Bosskillers says that Teron Gorefiends Shadow of Death only ignores the highest on the aggro list, is this incorrect?
Our tank once got ghosted when some DPSer was above him on threat, but didn't pull aggro.
That was a few months ago though, and may have been fixed (october/november roughly).
#2341SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by Clandestine View Post
I'm fairly sure that the boss can switch agro if you go above 110% on any fight with a random secondary target ability.
That is most definitely not correct. Example, on both gorefiend and illidan I have been over 110% and not pulled after secondary targets, including secondary targets on me (ie parasite, etc) This was back when omen worked and I am 129% without aggro and 130% with aggro.
#2342SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Tyralia
I've tried to do a bit of searching on this but haven't been able to find much (I generally suck at searching sigh...) but could anyone pls explain to me why, if the spell dmg co-efficient is a constant and so is the amount of speed increase you get from haste (not including the haste cap which I'm no where near)......why is it that after getting X amount of damage haste becomes better than dmg? How does that work?
#2343SourcePosted on<=2.0.0SchLing
Originally Posted by Tyralia View Post
I've tried to do a bit of searching on this but haven't been able to find much (I generally suck at searching sigh...) but could anyone pls explain to me why, if the spell dmg co-efficient is a constant and so is the amount of speed increase you get from haste (not including the haste cap which I'm no where near)......why is it that after getting X amount of damage haste becomes better than dmg? How does that work?
The spell co-effiency is based on the cast time of the spell, but is not effect by any talents that improve them. A 3 second cast gets 100% of your +damage, while anything lower than a 3s cast gets less of your +damage. I can't remember the exact % vs the cast time on the top of my head.

Haste is not effected by the same mechanic, meaning that a 0,5s reduction in cast time will affect all your spells.
#2344SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Clandestine
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
That is most definitely not correct. Example, on both gorefiend and illidan I have been over 110% and not pulled after secondary targets, including secondary targets on me (ie parasite, etc) This was back when omen worked and I am 129% without aggro and 130% with aggro.
It might not be the case for all random secondary target spells then, or it may have been changed. I never tested it extensively, but when my guild was learning Hydross 1.0, we had several cases of Hydross switching agro after a water bomb or that poison debuff that lowers your damage and healing. I haven't really played around with it since then.

The spell co-effiency is based on the cast time of the spell, but is not effect by any talents that improve them. A 3 second cast gets 100% of your +damage, while anything lower than a 3s cast gets less of your +damage. I can't remember the exact % vs the cast time on the top of my head.

Haste is not effected by the same mechanic, meaning that a 0,5s reduction in cast time will affect all your spells.
3.5 second spells get a 100% coefficient, not 3.0 second spells. The coefficient a spell gets depends on several thiings, such as whether the spell is a direct damage spell or a DOT, whether the spell is an AoE or not, whether the spell has a healing component, and so on. This page has a fairly comprehensive list of coefficients: Spell damage coefficient - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft. In general though, direct damage spells get a coefficient which is their cast time divided by 3.5. Most DOT spells get a 100% coefficient, and AoE spells receive a one-third coefficient. If a spell is an instant-cast, it is considered a 1.5 second spell for coefficient purposes.
#2345SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Clandestine View Post
3.5 second spells get a 100% coefficient, not 3.0 second spells. The coefficient a spell gets depends on several thiings, such as whether the spell is a direct damage spell or a DOT, whether the spell is an AoE or not, whether the spell has a healing component, and so on. This page has a fairly comprehensive list of coefficients: Spell damage coefficient - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft. In general though, direct damage spells get a coefficient which is their cast time divided by 3.5. Most DOT spells get a 100% coefficient, and AoE spells receive a one-third coefficient. If a spell is an instant-cast, it is considered a 1.5 second spell for coefficient purposes.
What you're saying is right, but the wowwiki seems far off. Base time is 3.5s, 15s for dots.


Spell power contribution per spell, ripped from ShadowSeer:

regular:
- Shadow Bolt: 3s/3.5s = 85.7 + 4% per talent point in SNF (up to 105.7%)
- Incinerate: 2.5/3.5s = 71.4 + 4% per talent point in SNF (up to 91.4%)

- Shadowburn: 1.5s/3.5s = 42.8%
- Searing Pain: 1.5s/3.5s = 42.8%

- UA: 18s/15s = 120%

Halved because of life gain (or stun in Shadowfury's case):
- Drain Life: 5s/3.5s /2 = 71.4% total (14.2% per tic)
- Death Coil: 1.5s/3.5s /2 = 21.4%
- Shadowfury: 1.5s/3.5 /2 = 21.4% on all targets
- Siphon Life: 30s/15s /2 = 100%

Channeled aoe:
- Hellfire: 15s/7s = 214.2%. This is 14.2% per tic (note that damage to self is boosted 10s/7s instead)
- Rain of fire: 8s/7s = 114.2%. This is 28.6% per tic

Exceptions:
- Corruption: 94% + 12% per talent point in emp Corruption. (up to 130%) over 6 tics
- CoA: 120% over 12 tics. unsure how it is distributed.
- CoD: 200% (unaffected by Shadow Mastery)
- Seed (dot): 150% total (30% per tic)
- Seed detonation: 16.6% on each target (aoe cap applies)
- Immolation: 20% (initial hit), 65% (dot). Initial hit damage is boosted by improved Immolate, so spellpower contribution is 1% extra per talent point in that.
- Soul Fire: 115%

Any other multipliers will apply to the total damage.

Let me know if I'm wrong about any of these.
#2346SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Talosh
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
About 38/2/21: Interesting, can you post it so I can include it in the Compendium? Update: if it wasn't already on there. Embarrassing!
You already mentioned it in your first post, but with a wrong talent link to wowhead:

Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Examples
classic Spec
Raid support with UA
Raid support with Ruin
Correct one would be Click me.
There you can swap a few point to other talents in the affliction tree (eg. Click me too), if you are up to pure CoS/CoE duty and therefor don't need CoEx/CoP.

Honestly I cannot determine when Ruin>UA (I leave that for the mathematician), but for a warlock with MH/BT/SW-Gear, you definitely should have that gear.
#2347SourcePosted on<=2.0.0shamitude
help with my warlock!!

I wanted to know the damage rotation of a destro lock with the demon sacrafice build, since my warlock just hit 70 i was thinking about using fire because ive read that fire has more dps for newly 70 locks and because i usually raid with 2 affliction locks with improved shadow bolt. I wanted to get youlls opinion if i should use fire or shadow and what damage rotation i should use for whichever is better. thanks!
#2348SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Zaq
With a newly 70 warlock you shouldn't be Destro.
#2349SourcePosted on<=2.0.0galzohar
While you could make a lot of rules for spell damage coefficients, the fact is spells that aren't a simple nuke with no untalented secondary effect (shadowbolt, fireball), will get a coefficient that is an exception to the rules. UA/corruption for example are special cases and get 15s coefficient even though they're 18s, AOEs seem to each have its own rule, etc. If you really want a coefficient of a spell better trust wowwiki or even better test yourself, as so many spells simply don't follow these rules (as in, they follow the rules in general but have some added modifier for one reason or another, like frostbolt getting less than expected due to its snare and UA/corruption for no known reason).

The reason haste scales better the more spell damage you have has nothing to do with what that was said above in my and the other posts here.

DPS = damage / casting time
Keeping things simple, Factoring casting time by 1/x (where x = 1 + haste rating/15.7) will multiply DPS by x. Factoring damage by x will also multiply dps by x. The more spell damage you have the more spell damage is needed to multiply dps by x while same amount of haste is needed. Also the more haste (rating, heroism/bloodlust don't apply as they're another multiplier to your cast speed) you have the more haste rating you need to multiply DPS by x. Therefore the more haste you have the better spell damage is and the more haste you have the better spell damage is, since they multiply eachother.

Keep in mind, though, that you need to add a lot of spell damage to actually change the amount of spell damage needed to multiply DPS by X by a noticeable amount, so this change in scaling of stats with different gear levels is actually very very slow. Especially if you consider the fact that higher gear has not only higher spell damage but also higher haste, making that change be even smaller as gear is upgraded. And there's no actual rule as to which stat has its value scaling better as gear scales up, as it depends on how much haste vs how much spell damage you gained.

Simliar explanations can be used for crit vs damage or crit vs haste (as well as hit but hit is too good to be left under the hit cap anyway so is best handled differently).
#2350SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Melbuframa
Originally Posted by Talosh View Post
You already mentioned it in your first post, but with a wrong talent link to wowhead:



Correct one would be Click me.
There you can swap a few point to other talents in the affliction tree (eg. Click me too), if you are up to pure CoS/CoE duty and therefor don't need CoEx/CoP.

Honestly I cannot determine when Ruin>UA (I leave that for the mathematician), but for a warlock with MH/BT/SW-Gear, you definitely should have that gear.
The warlock Fallenman of < Casual > on Mal'Ganis has been testing this and posting on the WoW forums, according to his tests, Ruin starts to out DPS UA at ~1300 Damage & 25% Crit fully buffed

His thread is Here
#2351SourcePosted on<=2.0.0galzohar
You can't really make a breakpoint. The more spell damage you have the more crit will be required for ruin to beat UA. If for example 1300 damage and 25% crit gave equal DPS for the specs, then 1400 spell damage would require more than 25% crit for them to be equal.

Also the difference in DPS between ruin and UA also depends on how many shadow destruction warlocks are in the raid, their crit chances and the number of shadow priests in the raid.

For these reasons, it's best if you just use the spreadsheet to decide between ruin and UA, just make sure to place an appropriate dot-gap and raid shadow DPSers' stats, and take into account the rest-of-raid ISB DPS difference you get when you change specs.
#2352SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Vlar
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
You can't really make a breakpoint. The more spell damage you have the more crit will be required for ruin to beat UA. If for example 1300 damage and 25% crit gave equal DPS for the specs, then 1400 spell damage would require more than 25% crit for them to be equal.

Also the difference in DPS between ruin and UA also depends on how many shadow destruction warlocks are in the raid, their crit chances and the number of shadow priests in the raid.

For these reasons, it's best if you just use the spreadsheet to decide between ruin and UA, just make sure to place an appropriate dot-gap and raid shadow DPSers' stats, and take into account the rest-of-raid ISB DPS difference you get when you change specs.
If the only thing you are changing is Ruin and UA, the only difference between the rest-of-raid ISB DPS difference should be your personal difference in DPS.

Also, I opened the calculator using the default setting, I input 30,000 +damage and 25% crit. Ruin still won (UA had 25,584 and Ruin had 26,210).

Edit: Punctuation.
#2353SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Flamingcloud
Indeed there is no way UA is ever gonna beat Ruin in a sunwell gear level unless you are way below the hit cap. Plus the debuff cap is a real concern so its likely going no UA or Immolate is the best case scenario.
#2354SourcePosted on<=2.0.0galzohar
The sample warlock in my spreadsheet more than meets those "requirements" (26 crit and almost 1360 buffed damage in tank group) yet gets more DPS with UA even if using the gear that favors ruin (gives best ruin dps out of the gear options) in both specs.

Ruin will also scale better with haste which makes it even more impossible to make "requirements".

Seems like I was wrong about the spell damage, though, and it actually makes little difference between UA and ruin. So the better build is based on some kind of multipication of your raid crit and haste taking into account the raid ISB (remember for some raid setups ruin will add more ISB uptime than it would for others, although this is probably a rather small differenece).

Anyway the main reason you can't make a breakpoint is that it depends heavily on both your crit and haste level - saying you need a certain level of crit is wrong as infinite haste will generally make ruin better with much lower crit rates than you'd need if you have 0 haste. And it's not the only factor, but it is the most significant one.

Since sunwell is filled with haste gear and your crit generally doesn't go down as you gear up, I wouldn't be surprised if ruin would pass UA with good enough gear. But you cannot put a line of "if you got X and Y stats ruin wins" as it simply won't always be true.
#2355SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Vlar
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
The sample warlock in my spreadsheet more than meets those "requirements" (26 crit and almost 1360 buffed damage in tank group) yet gets more DPS with UA even if using the gear that favors ruin (gives best ruin dps out of the gear options) in both specs.

Ruin will also scale better with haste which makes it even more impossible to make "requirements".

Seems like I was wrong about the spell damage, though, and it actually makes little difference between UA and ruin. So the better build is based on some kind of multipication of your raid crit and haste taking into account the raid ISB (remember for some raid setups ruin will add more ISB uptime than it would for others, although this is probably a rather small differenece).

Anyway the main reason you can't make a breakpoint is that it depends heavily on both your crit and haste level - saying you need a certain level of crit is wrong as infinite haste will generally make ruin better with much lower crit rates than you'd need if you have 0 haste. And it's not the only factor, but it is the most significant one.

Since sunwell is filled with haste gear and your crit generally doesn't go down as you gear up, I wouldn't be surprised if ruin would pass UA with good enough gear. But you cannot put a line of "if you got X and Y stats ruin wins" as it simply won't always be true.
Actually, with the premise that Haste improves ruin more quickly than UA, it kind of would be possible, given that it should be possible to meet the requirements prior to getting spell haste.

I did not run the numbers for this, since the spreadsheet was squawking on this computer and I do not want to take the time to break out my laptop.

Possible statement:

At 0 haste and no other spec changes, Ruin is theorycrafted to out damage UA at X +spell damage and Y% Crit. Haste is thought to lower this requirement.
#2356SourcePosted on<=2.0.0galzohar
Yeah but your requirement on crit will go down as crit goes up, and therefore you'll have to make some wierd non-linear function of crit and haste even if you decide to ignore the other, less sinigicant factors (that also affect it). Easier to just use the spreadsheet since you should have all your stats placed in there if you care about your DPS in the firstplace.
#2357SourcePosted on<=2.0.0shamitude
can anyone please tell me the best possible damage rotation for a destruction lock?
#2358SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Arnath
Quoted from the first page of this very thread:
Play style
- Spam Shadow Bolts and curses. Life Tap at opportunate times.
Read the existing threads before posting.
#2359SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Presarc
Originally Posted by shamitude View Post
can anyone please tell me the best possible damage rotation for a destruction lock?
Apply curse. Spam shadowbolt. Don't pull aggro.
#2360SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Dassem
Originally Posted by Presarc View Post
Apply curse. Spam shadowbolt. Don't pull aggro.
And try to stay awake
#2361SourcePosted on<=2.0.0shamitude
Ok thanks alot guy, I just wanted to make sure I didn't need to use immolate,corruption, or conflagrate since my warlock is not well geared.
#2362SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Flamingcloud
If you were in some sort of 4pc T5 setup, you would probably want to use corruption. Immolate is useful if you do all 10 fire talent points.. but I'd rather have the other stuff.
#2363SourcePosted on<=2.0.0burnz68
Originally Posted by Jadari View Post
Hi there =)

I have used the spreadsheet extensively, but I still have some questions. 0/21/40.

I see all the Sunwell warlocks using pure 10 haste gems, however, my spreadsheet says

Rune Crimson Spinel is worth 10.35 DPS
Reckless Pyrestone is worth 10.31
Quick Lionseye is worth 10.26

I'm just entering BT, but have the absolute best before that, I think. Why does my SS say the opposite of what I'm always told / always observe people using.

The same people telling me to use +10 Haste tell me to use the spreadsheet, which tells me NOT to use +10 haste. Also, should I be using Forceful (haste/stamina) gems instead of Glowing gems now? For socket bonuses.
From what I have found on my spreadsheet, I always benefit more from quick lionseye than any other gem when raid and party buffed. My guess is that there is an inflection point when you reach a certain spell damage. At that point it becomes better to throw out damage faster, than to simply throw out more damage at the same rate. Then again, I'm not 0/21/40 yet. I have 2T5 and VST so I'm still happy with the versatility and survivability I get out of 5/35/21. That will change when I break 2T5.

If you are using that v23 spreadsheet, you should make sure you're keeping your party and raid buffs accurate. For me that means an elemental shaman and max consumables but sadly no spriest yet. For you it may be radically different.
#2364SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Nicarras
Yes, if you are trying to weigh the gems, make sure you mention if its just you and no party buffs, or fully buffed.

My fully buffed values in T6ish gear will place haste considerably more valuable than dmg. Basically what I'm doing is all my yellow slots are +10 haste, all my red slots are +12 dmg. You can see that our gear generally has more yellow than red slots.

I still have 2T5, and cant stand raiding as Felguard, so i'm just either shadow or fire destro depending on the day, or lock tank.
#2376SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Vlar
Do both warlocks have subtlety enchanted on their cloak?

Does warlock #2 start attacking earlier than warlock #1? (i.e. does #1 start with Immo to give the tank a little time while #2 casts SB right off?

This is personal preference and may not be good advice:

If it is early in the fight and I am riding threat, I will back off a little to not pull, but later in the fight, I don't mind shattering to stay alive.
#2377SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Krazen
Originally Posted by lairpie View Post
Warlock #2 said he just always shatters at 70%. That's obviously not ideal. I think, though I'm not certain, that warlock 1 is shattering a bit early. Is there some sort of generalized formula or guide that I can't find for when to shatter for optimal damage done over the course of a fight? With brutallus in mind, in a 6 minute fight, its obviously possible to shatter twice, but is it ideal? Seems like someone has to have a decent guide worked out, not be just guessing, but haven't been able to find it.
We took our first attempts at Brutallus, and I found that shattering at 1:01 (right after my CoD ticked) along with tranquil air for the first 5% basically solved any aggro problems.

You also can play a bit more conservatively in the first minute. Keep in mind a fixed 6 minute duration means you aren't getting more than 3 2 min CDs no matter how you slice it, barring a 0-2-4-6 setup getting a 4th activation on the enrage. I'd make sure you get a couple extra lifetaps in at the start, going into the soulshatter with full mana, then going into full throttle mode for 5 minutes.

The nature of this fight is such that you should know exactly when you are using any type of drums/trinkets/heroism at the start.
#2378SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1rochan
There is no guide to soul shattering - it depends on the fight. You just need to get a feel for how much threat your tanks generate and base it on that. When is the optimal time? There is no simple answer. Though mathematically on a pure theory fight 65-70% is the best time - assuming constant threat, however, few fights are like this.

Also 60% on Kelecgos is like 90% on most other bosses, you'll see :P. It's sort of like, wow we got Illidan to 65% on the first try!

I agree you won't be able to kill Brutallus with no one in 4pc t6.
#2379SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1lairpie
Misdirect is usually enough to keep them from pulling agro too early, but they seem to very often be catching back up to the tank, and then shattering right before they pull agro. Then, before the fight is over, and before shatter is up again, they catch back up in threat. For a particular tank TPS, a particular lock DPS, and fight length, there's a mathematically correct time to shatter to be able to do the maximum amount of damage in a fight. Its not some sort of 'this feels like the right' time to shatter sort of thing. I'm not saying its some trivial thing to know the right time, but its not exactly complicated to figure out when it is if you just look at how much total damage you can do, while being under 130% threat for all points in the fight, based on when you shatter and what spells you open with and such. That can be generalized out into a formula for when to shatter, which other than agro dump fights, should be pretty close to accurate for any fight. Other than when using curse of doom, warlock threat for a 0-21-40 lock is pretty easy to look at other than crit streaks. Over the course of a fight if you're not using doom, which most wouldn't be in favor of CoS, CoR, CoE, threat's pretty linear. Obviously you or the tank could get lucky or unlucky and get off your average tps numbers, but, that doesn't really change the fact that there's an ideal time to shatter, anymore than random bad luck with crits would mean there's no ideal dps number for you. I thought perhaps someone had that model for when to ideally shatter worked out and that I could use it to help our damagers out. Sorry if that came out sounding somewhat caustic, but I'm just a little surprised to be getting a "its different for every fight" rather than a "you're dumb and bad at searching, the math for when to shatter is right here."
#2380SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
On Kalecgos & Brutallus:
We recently have downed Kalecgos and will try Brutallus soon. We have one warlock in 4p T6, despite farming BT/MH for months (bad luck on conqueror / having lots of priests+paladins / high attrition rate). We'll see how that goes.

Kalecgos to 70% is not very impressive. The nature of the fight is that it gets progressively harder due to curses, enrage and portal randomness. He's certainly doable, but it's the same as getting Vashj or Illidan to 70%. Don't underestimate Kalecgos. And good luck with the fight, I find Sunwell really challenging and fun, so far.


On hit rating and Magtheridon's Eye:
Of course hit rating needs to be balanced off vs other upgrades. But _point for point_ it is the best damage upgrade on bosses. If you're choosing between equal hit and some other rating, you choose hit unless you're capped. This is typically the case for gems.

Saying a spell being resisted is good for threat management shows a lack of insight in combat mechanics.

Saying you need 10% hit for optimal performance seems to be based on the fact that you have that amount and nothing else.

Typically on bosses you want to be as close as possible to 201, using gems (or shamans, of course). That _IS_ optimal strategy, and people have proven this with spreadsheets. I fully agree that the difference won't be stellar between 10+4% and 12+4% hit chance, but it will be higher than with the equivalent in spellpower or crit. I haven't done the math on haste for affliction.


On threat mechanics:
Back when Omen worked, I've been using the following strategy:

When close to 130% I'd Soulshatter unless the fight would last a while and I was likely to hit threat cap again. In that case, use Life Taps (not strung together, but double tap + Shadow Bolt rotation so healers don't panic) and reposition during Life Tap global cooldown if that's applicable. If full on mana, and Shadow Bolt crits would get me over the threat cap, I'd use Immolate instead. If full on mana, and Immolate is up, Soulshatter. I was almost always safe after that, except for threat gimmick fight. Tips for those: nuke during non-sensitive moments, and abstain from CoD for CoE or CoR, and if push come to shove, just stand there and look pretty.

Now that Omen is a horrible mess, it's a lot harder. I'm guessing it'll be fixed soonish.
#2381SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Garith
@ Nicarras

the gear now on the armory was a hodge pog of some crit gear i had in the bank laing around testing to see if i could get closer to 20% crit. it is by no means my usual afflic gear.

also there is aleady a maledict wench in the guild. So i will never gimp my self that far into utility.

I will be putting my regular gear back on so the armory will update it correctly. I usually run about 8-10% hit and 12% crit the gear i have is all proc based like i said before and gemed for haste and damage. even with the nerf to the MSD it is still very good for helping me get up UA's faster and an extra SB during a 3 cycle stretch.(proc'd cast time for a SB is 1.9 currently) So far i have 188 haste. and am always placing in the top 7 DPS. Have no need of a raid healer unless i am tanking.

I would assume that being closer to the hit cap would of course be better for destro critting and overall DPS. Yet that would take a major overhaul of gear and gems. with the current gear set you all have looked at on the armory that is about the best crit based gear i have amassed being affliction. Cause i have passed the better crit gear of the destro locks and picked up the left overs.

So i guess the question i am really asking i know the big numbers are in the destro tree. with what i got, what do i need to change? besides the Mag's eye and MSD.
#2382SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Dassem
Wow Web Stats

Hm, 2725 dps from a lock using succubus. Succubus specific 0/40/21 spec I guess? He did get a bit lucky with crits and also 2 heroisms, but impressive number nonetheless. Might have to try out something like that myself for fun
#2383SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Dassem View Post
0/40/21 spec I guess? He did get a bit lucky with crits and also 2 heroisms

I just armoried him, and he is now 21/40. The succy is very squishie, so it seems he thought it wasn't worth it, especially because you have to turn off the shadow attack from the pet.

It is nice to get extra damage out of the heroisms plus drums, but not worth the micromanagement it seems.


He has two 10 crit gems, interesting choice.
#2384SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1 Eph
Originally Posted by Dassem View Post
Wow Web Stats

Succubus specific 0/40/21 spec I guess?
I've found it to be about the same dps as 0/21/40 but rarely any threat issues which is great for going all out on Brut.



And yeah, he got 160 bolts in, thats extremely impressive.
#2385SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Jerace
- Removed -

Last edited by Jerace : 04/13/08 at 1:40 AM.
#2386SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Jerace View Post
but im looking for some macros for warlocks.
Macros will not help clipping DoTs, using DoTimer or ClassTimers will help though.

Interesting, your Warlocks may see a dps increase doing Destro, since spamming Shadow Bolts isn't as hard as using DoTs.
#2387SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Jerace
one had chosen to go dps and has done evry very poorly due to gear deficits

is there a macro that could be written, that only resets after the the duration of the dot has been met, so even if the lock spammed it, it would only cast after say 18 seconds in the case of corruption?

Last edited by Jerace : 04/12/08 at 11:06 AM.
#2388SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Emolate
Originally Posted by Jerace View Post
is there a macro that could be written, that only resets after the the duration of the dot has been met, so even if the lock spammed it, it would only cast after say 18 seconds in the case of corruption?
No, not only is that not allowed in the Blizzard API ("faking" a cooldown) but it would probably fall under botting.

Clipping the last tick of a DoT isn't going to be the end of the world. It's possible that they're just missing with their filler spells, or doing something silly as a fill. Do you have a WWS available?

Just make sure they all install ForteWarlock, ClassTimers, or DoTtimer and watch the bars move. Warcraft isn't Guitar Hero.
#2389SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Myrdinn
Hello warlocks friends

I am a raid leader interested in warlock gemming in order to improve my warlock' dps
I tested Rawr (because it is shining for me as a mage) and tested it on my warlocks.

Rawr is saying the best warlock gem is 10crit despite the fact the warlock is not hit-capped.

Is that true ?
ISB uptime matters so much it is more important to have 10 crit than 10hit or 12 dmg ???

For reference, warlock is here :

Thanks for advice

Last edited by Myrdinn : 04/13/08 at 2:22 PM.
#2390SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1clavarnway
Originally Posted by Myrdinn View Post
Hello warlocks friends

I am a raid leader interested in warlock gemming in order to improve my warlock' dps
I tested Rawr (because it is shining for me as a mage) and tested it on my warlocks.

Rawr is saying the best warlock gem is 10crit despite the fact the warlock is not hit-capped.

Is that true ?
ISB uptime matters so much it is more important to have 10 crit than 10hit or 12 dmg ???

For reference, warlock is here :

Thks for advice
Until hit cap, hit rating is best thing to have. After that, haste rating is best, but +damage is really good too. Crit isn't something you should gem for, you just pick it up with gear. All my experience/opinion of course.
#2391SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Flamingcloud
Rawr is horribad don't use it. All the crit gems are completely worthless and will never be the best for a warlock.

2775 Damage isn't all that impressive from a miracle 43% crit rate(which is like 11% higher than he should have been factoring in ele shaman & talents), double heroism, triple drum, no burn, 1600 dps spriest, etc. I plug his numbers(including raid isb) in as 0/21/40 and get around 100 dps more. Plus you can drop an infernal for another like 200 dps as destro(one an hour ofcourse).
#2392SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1clavarnway
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
Rawr is horribad don't use it. All the crit gems are completely worthless and will never be the best for a warlock.

2775 Damage isn't all that impressive from a miracle 43% crit rate(which is like 11% higher than he should have been factoring in ele shaman & talents), double heroism, triple drum, no burn, 1600 dps spriest, etc. I plug his numbers(including raid isb) in as 0/21/40 and get around 100 dps more. Plus you can drop an infernal for another like 200 dps as destro(one an hour ofcourse).
This is something I've never heard before - does the Infernal not remove the Touch of Shadow buff? That's pretty interesting!
#2393SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Nas
Originally Posted by Eph View Post
I've found it to be about the same dps as 0/21/40 but rarely any threat issues which is great for going all out on Brut.



And yeah, he got 160 bolts in, thats extremely impressive.
I only see 88 Shadow Bolts that attempt. One thing I'm curious about is how easy it is to keep a Succy up with VE through burn/meteor slash damage that it would get through Soul Link. I noticed that Badkarma had used SL, while the other two similarly specced locks did not. He did not get Burn, however.
#2394SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Flamingcloud
Infernal does not remove demonic sac buff. I think on our first kill we got about 110k damage out of 2 infernals that were dropped around 90 seconds in on brutallus.

WWS does not recognize infernals in its current version, and is probably a reason you don't see this... But I don't see any reason why I can't let the cat out of the bag.

Originally Posted by Nas View Post
I only see 88 Shadow Bolts that attempt. One thing I'm curious about is how easy it is to keep a Succy up with VE through burn/meteor slash damage that it would get through Soul Link. I noticed that Badkarma had used SL, while the other two similarly specced locks did not. He did not get Burn, however.
Pets automatically get behind the mob now, so I assume its impossible for them to get meteor striked(as a tank isn't gonna taunt right before a meteor strike.. pets probably dont get hit anyways..) I am not sure burn/meteor strike would even be mitigated by soul link, but if it was you could always spend a global cooldown summoning a new one, if yours somehow died without receiving any chain heals.

Last edited by Flamingcloud : 04/12/08 at 4:45 PM.
#2395SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Nas
Yeah, I was thinking about the damage mitigated via SL as I am pretty sure pets are unaffected by burn/slash themselves. I guess it's worth a try. I have used Infernals on Brut before and it's a nice DPS boost, it just isn't as reliable due to the long cool down, especially when we have not killed him yet, meaning one could potentially waste a one hour cooldown on a wipe due to tank deaths.
#2396SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Krazen
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
Infernal does not remove demonic sac buff. I think on our first kill we got about 110k damage out of 2 infernals that were dropped around 90 seconds in on brutallus.

WWS does not recognize infernals in its current version, and is probably a reason you don't see this... But I don't see any reason why I can't let the cat out of the bag.



Pets automatically get behind the mob now, so I assume its impossible for them to get meteor striked(as a tank isn't gonna taunt right before a meteor strike.. pets probably dont get hit anyways..) I am not sure burn/meteor strike would even be mitigated by soul link, but if it was you could always spend a global cooldown summoning a new one, if yours somehow died without receiving any chain heals.
It did for me.

Xizorz - WWS

It's almost exactly 200 dps, minus the time taken to summon him.

Given the 1 hr cooldown, its hardly reliable, but somebody could put out a very impressive parse if they got lucky.
#2397SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1clavarnway
Is the time taken to deal with him when he breaks Enslave worth the gains? Or does he kill himself through some fight mechanic?
#2398SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Krazen
Originally Posted by clavarnway View Post
Is the time taken to deal with him when he breaks Enslave worth the gains? Or does he kill himself through some fight mechanic?
Well, if you summon him off the bat, you have to enslave at 5 minutes, getting 12000 dmg for your 3 second cast. It's worth it.

More realisitically, though, you don't want to use your 1 hr cooldown only to see the tanks splatter at 0:30. By waiting till the 1 minute mark, he'll last the duration of the fight without the need to enslave, and it delays your soulshatter a bit.

It would be really interesting, though, if he could soak meteor slashes.
#2399SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1 Eph
Originally Posted by Nas View Post
I only see 88 Shadow Bolts that attempt. One thing I'm curious about is how easy it is to keep a Succy up with VE through burn/meteor slash damage that it would get through Soul Link. I noticed that Badkarma had used SL, while the other two similarly specced locks did not. He did not get Burn, however.
He got 88 hits. A succubus can almost live through SL'd slashes throughout the fight, but I've had to resummon it just before she dies at about 5:30 in. With a Shadow Priest in the group its a non issue.
#2400SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
It did for me.

Xizorz - WWS

It's almost exactly 200 dps, minus the time taken to summon him.

Given the 1 hr cooldown, its hardly reliable, but somebody could put out a very impressive parse if they got lucky.
Quite possible a newer version of WWS logs it properly as opposed to a a week before that. But ya, free 200 dps once an hour is quite awesome.
#2401SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by Jerace View Post
Hey, i'm not sure if any were posted in this thread, but im looking for some macros for warlocks, the warlocks in my guild are having MAJOR dps issues, i cant understand why becuase their gear is progressing at the same rate as other DPSers in the raid. One in particular is very steadfast in her decison to be a destro lock ( very very premature as she doesnt reach the minimum hit/crit and spell damage, not enough hit for affliction for that matter) but even with this obvious stat deficiency the dps seems abnormally low, I believe both of them are clipping the last tick of their DoTs.
No amount of macros is going to make a huge difference if your players are incompetent. I'm fairly sure you can get hit capped without even going to Karazhan these days. MGT loot + badge things will do.

I'd say that with a handful of KZ runs and some crafted gear, badge gear and MGT drops, you have the gear required for BT. If you can't keep up with the others dpswise when having that gear, you're doing something very, very wrong.

If they really are that low on dps, I'd suggest any of the following:
- make them read this EJ compendium and hope they improve
- talk to guild/raid leaders have them force the warlocks to brush up their gear and make sane gear/spec choices
- get leadership to recruit proper warlocks and hope their superior performance forces the others to improve
- if all else fails, try and join a raid comm that does not allow idiots or at least doesn't take them to new encounters. If you're serious about raiding, you need at least some level of basic competence in order to progress.
#2402SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Carnate
A simple standard our guild got from a friend is this. Anyone in a DPS class mage/hunter/rogue/lock etc that loses to a hybrid on Brutalis is out. This can work for most fights in general. If your locks are constantly losing to the S priest, shammies or Retadins they are just not doing their job.
#2403SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
zanaris
Shattered Sun Pendant of the Acumen

Has anyone done any theorycrafting with this neck? I've been looking, but unable to find anything. It seems wiki.shadowpriest usually has a listing of procs for things like this (especially the aldor version) but it looks like it hasnt been posted if any thing has been done on it. 2.4 is still only a few weeks old, so I wouldnt be surprised if people havent looked into it.

Sorry if someone has posted already, I've looked through the forums some but i'm still relatively new and I dont know exactly where to look and for some reason I dont think a simple search will find every topic. If someone knows where research on this item has been done please point me in the proper direction.

EDIT: just realized that even though I put the name of the neck in the title some people might be confused what I am talking about. I'm talking about the neck which you obtain from being exalted with the shattered sun offensive. The Shattered Sun Pendant of the Acumen.

Last edited by zanaris : 04/13/08 at 2:33 AM. Reason: clarification
#2404SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Flamingcloud
When I tested Shattered Sun Pendant of the Acumen it got 3 procs in 2 minutes, thought I think the actual rate would be abit below that due to the internal cool down.. The Scryer version is horrible, but the Aldor version should be the equivalent of a +60-65dmg neck I believe. Which I suppose makes it good if your neck is worse than kael/souls neck.
#2405SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Liminality
so you are saying if you are still rocking Adornment of Souls or the KZ trash shadow damage neck, you should upgrade to this neck piece?
#2406SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by Liminality View Post
so you are saying if you are still rocking Adornment of Souls or the KZ trash shadow damage neck, you should upgrade to this neck piece?
If you're Aldor, ya.
#2407SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1reduxed
Originally Posted by Liminality View Post
so you are saying if you are still rocking Adornment of Souls or the KZ trash shadow damage neck, you should upgrade to this neck piece?
Hey, I know you.

Pendant of Acumen's item level is 115, which is significantly lower than Vindicator's Pendant of Conquest, or Adornment of Stolen Souls, while Ritssyn's has the same item level. I'm not sure if Acumen can outdo Vindicator's with a 12 spell damage gem in it (which comes pretty close to Sun King's Talisman), but then again I don't know what the internal cooldown of the proc is.
#2408SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Myrdinn
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
Rawr is horribad don't use it. All the crit gems are completely worthless and will never be the best for a warlock.
Many thanks for your advice.
Rawr is working quite ok for mages, so I tested it on warlocks.
I was quite surprised about the 10crit>* result...
#2409SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Exilersess
Previously, I've been stacking spell damage as aposed to shadow dmg since shadow damage didn't stack with shadow and flame or other talents that increase the spell damage effects of your spells. However, recently I heard that as of last patch, shadow damage was now stacking with these talents. Is this true? I want to make sure before I enchant soulfrost and swich back to pure death flasks and shadow power elixers.
#2410SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1wowzeers
Ok really, I was just wondering hands down what is more dps fire or shadow. As of right now our guild has 3 locks so i am guessing for our set up we should all have isp for the shadow priest. But really I don't want to count total raid dps right now. So if our raid has 2 or 3 fire mages is fire a better destro build for me to get more dps or is shadow still better in the end.
#2411SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Gumibear
Originally Posted by Exilersess View Post
Previously, I've been stacking spell damage as aposed to shadow dmg since shadow damage didn't stack with shadow and flame or other talents that increase the spell damage effects of your spells. However, recently I heard that as of last patch, shadow damage was now stacking with these talents. Is this true? I want to make sure before I enchant soulfrost and swich back to pure death flasks and shadow power elixers.
I've never heard that +shadow or +fire did not stack with Shadow and Flame.
#2412SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Exilersess
It didn't. I heard about it before a few times, then me and a former guildie of ours whent out and tested it. he put on
1k shadow gear, and I put on 1k spell dmg (give or take a few) and measured our shots. CoD didnt, and empowered coruption didnt either. we didn't test shadow and flame but some mages told us their talent that gives bonus fire damage off fireballs don't work off fire either, and someone else told me that all the talents were like that.

I'm not a big number cruncher, and what I came up with and heard was that it didn't stack with talents. I just heard that it was fixed in the last patch to were it now does. If anyone has any information on this, I'm very interested.

P.S. this is just with the talents, the shadow bolts and other spells are still effected by their apropriate schools of magic.
#2413SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Krazen
How, exactly, does Nether Protection work on Brutallus?

Things I know:
1. It does not proc off Burn.
2. It does proc off Slash. You will still take the Slash damage you should be taking, but your debuff will be cleared, thus reducing the damage on the next Slash. If you have 0 or 1 stack of the debuff this does come in handy.

Things I don't know:
1. If you eat a Slash and take a Burn within the next 4 seconds, does Burn still hit you or are you considered immune?
2. If you have a Burn and eat a Slash, and NP procs, do you immunity off the Burn?
#2414SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Trippy
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
How, exactly, does Nether Protection work on Brutallus?

Things I know:
1. It does not proc off Burn.
Are you sure it doesn't proc off Burn? I know I've been immune to the first few ticks of Burn without a Slash debuff, or maybe I'm just going crazy.
#2415SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Krazen
Originally Posted by Trippy View Post
Are you sure it doesn't proc off Burn? I know I've been immune to the first few ticks of Burn without a Slash debuff, or maybe I'm just going crazy.
90% sure anyway. Though I could be wrong.
#2416SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1mandella
Simple question: what's better on fight like Brutallus: Darkmoon Card: Crusade or Icon?
#2417SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Gofa
Originally Posted by mandella View Post
Simple question: what's better on fight like Brutallus: Darkmoon Card: Crusade or Icon?

For a mage darkmoon card is better than icon for brutallus. Should be the same for a warlock.
#2418SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Suggestive
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
How, exactly, does Nether Protection work on Brutallus?

Things I know:
1. It does not proc off Burn.
2. It does proc off Slash. You will still take the Slash damage you should be taking, but your debuff will be cleared, thus reducing the damage on the next Slash. If you have 0 or 1 stack of the debuff this does come in handy.

Things I don't know:
1. If you eat a Slash and take a Burn within the next 4 seconds, does Burn still hit you or are you considered immune?
2. If you have a Burn and eat a Slash, and NP procs, do you immunity off the Burn?
I'm 100% sure it procs off Burn, though its a useless proc. It only prevents the first few ticks from doing damage. And yes, if the timing works out so you proc NP off a meteor slash right before you get Burn, you are immune to it. As for the second question, it works the same way it does with other DoT's, you're simply immune to a few ticks it doesn't take the debuff off.
#2419SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
How, exactly, does Nether Protection work on Brutallus?

Things I know:
1. It does not proc off Burn.
2. It does proc off Slash. You will still take the Slash damage you should be taking, but your debuff will be cleared, thus reducing the damage on the next Slash. If you have 0 or 1 stack of the debuff this does come in handy.

Things I don't know:
1. If you eat a Slash and take a Burn within the next 4 seconds, does Burn still hit you or are you considered immune?
2. If you have a Burn and eat a Slash, and NP procs, do you immunity off the Burn?
This is horribly wrong. Please be more careful when posting.

Nether protection makes you immune to Fire and Shadow DAMAGE. Not spells. The debuff still is applied. update: was pointed out this is wrong. I stand corrected. See below..

I'm fairly sure it can proc off both spells, and 100% sure it's next to useless on this fight due to the initial tics of burn being harmless and slash having a cooldown way longer than 4 seconds.

If you are afflicted by burn you will be moving to a spot where you can't be hit by slash, since that would kill you. So a proc off one will only prevent initial burn tics, or the occasional slash right after you got afflicted by burn. The latter is arguably useful but rare.

Last edited by Arelenda : 04/14/08 at 3:43 AM.
#2420SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1weet
Actually what he posted was basically correct.

Having done Brut a fair amount with Nether Protection and watching my stacks, from my observation it can proc off a slash and you will not recieve any +fire damage debuff for that one iteration of meteor slash.

Basically it means that you can sometimes avoid some of the raid damage (which is rather trivial). But a more valuable thing is if you get burn in a period soon after a slash that you resisted, meaning that a possible 2 or 3 (if you get unlucky with taking a 3rd slash while running to the burn spot) is lessened to 1-2.

But yeah I have never noticed burn being immuned but the chance is very low for the two abilities to overlap, so cannot say for certain whether you can immune it or not.
#2421SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Suggestive
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
This is horribly wrong. Please be more careful when posting.

Nether protection makes you immune to Fire and Shadow DAMAGE. Not spells. The debuff still is applied.

I'm fairly sure it can proc off both spells, and 100% sure it's next to useless on this fight due to the initial tics of burn being harmless and slash having a cooldown way longer than 4 seconds.

If you are afflicted by burn you will be moving to a spot where you can't be hit by slash, since that would kill you. So a proc off one will only prevent initial burn tics, or the occasional slash right after you got afflicted by burn. The latter is arguably useful but rare.
Nether Protection - Spells - World of Warcraft You ARE immune to all fire and shadow spells, its just not the kind of immunity that clears debuffs. Though i agree that NP is near useless on that encounter.
#2422SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Madlax
I´m not 100% certain yet due to only ~50 attempts and 2 kills have past, but:
Netherprotection can procc on the initial Meteor Slash and make you invulnerable for the stacking buff(of that Meteor Slash - I had that happen quite often actually)
It won´t help anything on Burn, as he ignores spell immunte targets appearently(bubble, netherprot)
And it does not procc of Burn ticks.
#2423SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Exilersess
Im still working on kalec, and currently don't have nether prot so I can tank Illy, but From what I've noticed nether prot does remove most shadow and fire debuffs as well. I'm assuming from these post that it isn't the case with brut, but in general you would.
#2424SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by Exilersess View Post
Im still working on kalec, and currently don't have nether prot so I can tank Illy, but From what I've noticed nether prot does remove most shadow and fire debuffs as well. I'm assuming from these post that it isn't the case with brut, but in general you would.
I've never seen it remove a debuff. As has been pointed out, it does make you immune to damage for the duration, and will prevent new spells from being applied.
#2425SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Miim
I have been doing some initial testing on Fire lock since the change in 2.4 and here is my thoughts so far.
Would like some more educated and objective input from you guys.

- Personal DPS seems to be more or less the same.. Might even be abit higher fire fire especially on long fights.
- Seems more mana efficient, that leads to less lifetapping and gives a higher substainded DPS.
- Shadow is still more usefull to the raid. Since Fire dont bring anything to the table besides good DPS. We usually raid with 2 shadow destro and me as fire destro so its not a problem. I would not accept all locks to go fire.
- Fire is defiantly more interactive and for me at least more fun to play.
- Shadow buff from Spriest is better than scorch buff from mages due to the fact that it is so much faster to apply. Still no big difference on bossfights (that really matter). When you have 2x Fire Mages.
- Really nice for thrash, with fast casts, and deflag is a great finisher. Its more usefull than shadowburn cause it has longer range.
- You loose some survivability as fire, since it is hard to spec with nether protection and soul leech.
- Fire is also great for more mobile encounters since incinerate is faster to cast and immolate has a DOT effect. (I know immolate is a minor dps upgrade for shadow as well but imo it was never really worth the debuff slot then.

Please anyone that have tested this seriously give me some of your thoughts.
#2426SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Melbuframa
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
On Kalecgos & Brutallus:
We recently have downed Kalecgos and will try Brutallus soon. We have one warlock in 4p T6, despite farming BT/MH for months (bad luck on conqueror / having lots of priests+paladins / high attrition rate). We'll see how that goes.

.
We only have 1 lock in 4pT6 and we downed him last night, we have horrid luck with Conq tokens, random loot, nearly everyone else in the raid has 4p T6 however, so it’s definitely doable
#2427SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Redelm
We frequently raid with 3-4 locks. And since 2.4’s buff to fire locks making it, from what I have seen, a viable raid spec (this is based on our best geared lock being able to output 1800-2000 dps as fire). I am wondering if it would make more sense to run 1 high crit shadow destro lock, to keep ISB up for SP’s and the affliction lock. And have the other locks spec into fire.

Basically the question is would 3 shadow destro locks keep ISB up more than 1 high crit shadow destro lock? We are going to be working on Brut, we are undergeared and would like to squeeze every bit of dps we can out of our locks. While providing the max raid benefit.
#2428SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by Redelm View Post
We frequently raid with 3-4 locks. And since 2.4’s buff to fire locks making it, from what I have seen, a viable raid spec (this is based on our best geared lock being able to output 1800-2000 dps as fire). I am wondering if it would make more sense to run 1 high crit shadow destro lock, to keep ISB up for SP’s and the affliction lock. And have the other locks spec into fire.

Basically the question is would 3 shadow destro locks keep ISB up more than 1 high crit shadow destro lock? We are going to be working on Brut, we are undergeared and would like to squeeze every bit of dps we can out of our locks. While providing the max raid benefit.
Maybe you could read the thread and the spreadsheet thread..
#2429SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Eradorn
Trinkets

With the advent of 2.4 I am wondering what trinkets I should use. I tried to use the spreadsheet, but these trinkets aren't in there, and since they have procs/use I am not sure how I could make them fit on "Custom"

I am Aff spec (43/0/18)

I was using Icon and Living Ruby Serpent

After Heroic MgT I switched Serpent to Timbal's Focusing Crystal

Since I am a JC I can make the Crimson Serpent now. I know the stats are high, so on those "heavy dmg" fights, this will always be better, but compared to the Icon and Focusing Crystal how do they match up? With the extra int (larger mana pool before LT) as well as the lowered 2 min "use" am no longer sure which of the three is best to use on average.

Your help is appreciated.
#2430SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Carnate
With 3 dest 1 aff and 1-2 SP you are running alot of shadow I would go with all Shadow Dest locks. When you turn 2 of the locks into fire you start gimping 3-4 other peoples DPS while adding little to their own.

Brutalis is not just DPS, the heals are stretched also. With shadow you can have Nether Protection and Soul Leach, these help heal the locks and lower Meteor Slash stacks (jury still out on burn use, but I haven't seen burn proc it yet). While not game breaking talents they do help.

Even though I belive Shadow is the better choice, it is still just a minor upgrade.
#2431SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1zanaris
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
When I tested Shattered Sun Pendant of the Acumen it got 3 procs in 2 minutes, thought I think the actual rate would be abit below that due to the internal cool down.. The Scryer version is horrible, but the Aldor version should be the equivalent of a +60-65dmg neck I believe. Which I suppose makes it good if your neck is worse than kael/souls neck.
Not to be a pain in the ass, but is there any theorycrafting where I can see that this neck is as good as 60-65+dmg

I have a hard time believing that the aldor proc is worth 23-28+ dmg because spellstrike is only worth about 10-12 and seems to be about the same thing. (shattered sun proc is 20 spell damage more but proc is still only 10 seconds only allowing about 3 sb casts in unless you have a decent amount of haste and if you have that gear you probably wont be wearing this neck =P) The proc rate does seem to be higher than that of spellstrike, but if you only tested it one time then your results can be severely skewed.

I realize beggars cant be choosers but unless the claims are supported in math, it's going to be hard to accept your opinion.
#2432SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Flamingcloud
Well unless the proc rate is dramatically different than the proc rate on scryer version.. I got 3 procs in 2 minutes(I believe the neck is 15% chance 45sec cooldown).. so adjusting for internal cooldown, I think around 1.2 proc per minute is to be expected.. Thus a 20% uptime, or +24dmg value. I am not gonna do a 30 minute proc test since I am not aldor. 10 Second proc should get atleast 4finished 1 started bolts.. Possibly 5finished 1 started.

Last edited by Flamingcloud : 04/14/08 at 12:58 PM.
#2433SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Crosshairs
I wanted to post this in the warlock thread as I figured you guys would provide the most information.

One of our warlocks(Ishmael ) wants to help understand how he can improve his overall damage done on Anetheron. I am not sure what to tell him, and I am hoping there might be some tricks that you could help out with.

Warlocks - WWS
#2434SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Savetheday
Originally Posted by Suggestive View Post
Nether Protection - Spells - World of Warcraft You ARE immune to all fire and shadow spells, its just not the kind of immunity that clears debuffs. Though i agree that NP is near useless on that encounter.
I'm almost certain that I had Nether Prot proc off Fear on Archimonde and it cleared the fear. There's a few other times I noticed a debuff come off when Nether Prot proc'd and I'd like to say one of the fights was Illidan but im not entirely sure.
#2435SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by Savetheday View Post
I'm almost certain that I had Nether Prot proc off Fear on Archimonde and it cleared the fear. There's a few other times I noticed a debuff come off when Nether Prot proc'd and I'd like to say one of the fights was Illidan but im not entirely sure.
It doesn't. You probably confused it with a tremor totem tic.

It can however make you immune to doomfire for those 4 seconds, which is pretty good considering it is the only way you can actually die on that fight without screwing up horribly.

It can proc on grip of the legion, making you immune to the first dot tic as well (it will NOT remove it).

Archimonde is basically one of the fights where NP is actually really good.
#2436SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Benafflock
Originally Posted by Crosshairs View Post
I wanted to post this in the warlock thread as I figured you guys would provide the most information.

One of our warlocks(Ishmael ) wants to help understand how he can improve his overall damage done on Anetheron. I am not sure what to tell him, and I am hoping there might be some tricks that you could help out with.

Warlocks - WWS
There are multiple things that he could do and that the warlocks in general could also do to improve both raid and personal DPS.

First, he could drop Corruption from his spell rotation, and while I cannot see his armory at the moment, I would also venture to say that he could drop Immolate as well. The time spent casting Corruption, for example, would be better spent casting a Shadow Bolt.

Secondly, all of the warlocks need to use utility curses: Curse of Shadows, Curse of Elements, and Curse of Recklessness. It looks like they might be doing that, but it's hard for me to discern whether the damage from their Agony and Doom is coming from Infernals or Anetheron.

Thirdly, DPS time. The longer it takes for him to move between Anetheron and Infernals, the less DPS and the less damage he's going to be doing over the course of the fight. For example, being in such a position that one doesn't have to move at all, merely turn, in order to DPS the infernal is much more beneficial for one's DPS and damage than if he has to run over a hill and and across the road to get it.

Finally, sometimes he might just get unlucky, and there's really nothing one can do about that. I see he took a Sleep that fight. Sometimes one won't take a single Sleep the entire fight, and sometimes he might take two or three. That's just how the RNG works.
#2437SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Oculus
Originally Posted by Benafflock View Post
Secondly, all of the warlocks need to use utility curses: Curse of Shadows, Curse of Elements, and Curse of Recklessness. It looks like they might be doing that, but it's hard for me to discern whether the damage from their Agony and Doom is coming from Infernals or Anetheron.
I agree with you on the other points, but it may be worth noting they only have 1 mage in this WWS, in which case CoD will most likely out-dps the benefit the lone mage would recieve from CoE (if hes even fire/frost)
#2438SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1zanaris
added to the post

Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
Well unless the proc rate is dramatically different than the proc rate on scryer version.. I got 3 procs in 2 minutes(I believe the neck is 15% chance 45sec cooldown).. so adjusting for internal cooldown, I think around 1.2 proc per minute is to be expected.. Thus a 20% uptime, or +24dmg value. I am not gonna do a 30 minute proc test since I am not aldor. 10 Second proc should get atleast 4finished 1 started bolts.. Possibly 5finished 1 started.
Wouldnt 1.2 ppm be a 13.88%(repeating of course) uptime? If this is the case it is about equal to 16.66%(repeating of course) +damage. Am I way off on this one?

Second, the fact that you only tested it once skews the results unless anyone can confirm a 15% chance on a 45 second cooldown.

EDIT:

I'm almost certain that I had Nether Prot proc off Fear on Archimonde and it cleared the fear. There's a few other times I noticed a debuff come off when Nether Prot proc'd and I'd like to say one of the fights was Illidan but im not entirely sure.
nether proteciton will proc off any shadow/fire spell but it does NOT remove any debuffs. Go into Bot and get slept by a physician (for whatever reason the spell is shadow or fire) the anesthesia will proc nether protection but you will still be slept for the full duration or until dispelled.
#2439SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by zanaris View Post
Wouldnt 1.2 ppm be a 13.88%(repeating of course) uptime? If this is the case it is about equal to 16.66%(repeating of course) +damage. Am I way off on this one?

Second, the fact that you only tested it once skews the results unless anyone can confirm a 15% chance on a 45 second cooldown.

EDIT:



nether proteciton will proc off any shadow/fire spell but it does NOT remove any debuffs. Go into Bot and get slept by a physician (for whatever reason the spell is shadow or fire) the anesthesia will proc nether protection but you will still be slept for the full duration or until dispelled.
No.. 1.2 ppm.. would be 12 seconds of uptime per 60.. 12/60 = 20%.. No clue where you are getting your numbers from.

Sunwell Exalted Caster Neck Thottbot is what has it at 15%
#2440SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1slowmo
Originally Posted by Crosshairs View Post
I wanted to post this in the warlock thread as I figured you guys would provide the most information.

One of our warlocks(Ishmael ) wants to help understand how he can improve his overall damage done on Anetheron. I am not sure what to tell him, and I am hoping there might be some tricks that you could help out with.

Warlocks - WWS
You can view the buffs and debuffs placed on anetheron in WWS and see that CoS and CoR werent used on him. Those would help out his dps and the raids.

Cant really check out armory right now, but as was posted above remove immolate and coruption from rotations. Since he wouldnt use immolate anymore emberstorm is worthless spec out if it and conflag, and put points into cataclysm and soul leech.

Judging from the damage though i would venture to say t5 level gear? if that true warlocks become simple, cap out hit, 25% crit. Curse up, spam bolt and dont pull agro, pot and tap as needed.

Forgot, for setting up what locks do what curse, have the 2 with the lowest shadow damage do CoR and CoS, the other 2 do CoDs.
#2441SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1ninielin
Mmm sorry, quick question, is there a cloak in sunwell plateau? Haven't see any yet and my guild is running on dkp so I m just wondering if I should pick up illidari's cloak ( using ZA haste one atm), or just wait for a possible up in sunwell
#2442SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Pentamorfi
I haven't seen one yet, but keep in mind M'uru's loot table is completely unknown at the moment. The end game gear set I've designed either uses the IC cloak or the Hyjal trash one, depending on spec.
#2443SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1 frmorrison
Originally Posted by slowmo View Post
Forgot, for setting up what locks do what curse, have the 2 with the lowest shadow damage do CoR and CoS, the other 2 do CoDs.
If there are is than one Fire Mage, you will have more raid dps with CoE over Doom.


For Fire vs Shadow and assuming all Tier 6 gear, the best setup is one Shadow (this Lock should have a lot of crit) and the rest Fire.
#2444SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
If you're running with an affliction warlock he should always be on 13% CoS duty, obviously. You should never really have more than 1 affliction warlock in a good raid so the rest are obviously worst 2 locks CoR+CoE (no CoE if only 2 locks or only 1 mage) and rest do CoD. Anything else is simply a DPS loss for the raid. And CoR's damage increase is fully miticated by 5/5 improved demoralizing shout which your raid should have (as in, a boss with 5/5 demo on him hits same (or about the same) as one with CoR+5/5 demo).
#2445SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1outofcontrol
Where does haste play into itemization for warlocks, is stacking haste in T6 or equivalent gear more important than stacking damage?
#2446SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by outofcontrol View Post
Where does haste play into itemization for warlocks, is stacking haste in T6 or equivalent gear more important than stacking damage?
It is all in the spreadsheet.. you will see that the more damage you have the better haste is.. and the more haste you have the worse haste is. Depending on your current gear setup haste might be better than dmg, but I think more often dmg will be better.

My rough conclusion is that dmg > haste for people venturing into sunwell gear.. Meaning crimson spinel in red, and reckless pyrestone in yellow. Ofcourse you should use the spreadsheet to figure out what the turning point is for you.. In my current gear for example (factoring in full raid buffs and heroism/drums brutallus setup) I have 1haste = 1.01dmg.. but if you remove heroism/drums I have 1haste = 1.19dmg... Remove zhar'doom for tempest/chronicle, and Ring of Ancient Knowledge for Band of the Eternal Sage and I get 1 haste = 1.28dmg.

More so than anything else.. it is the more haste you have the worse it gets, and the further into sunwell you get the more haste you will have, so gemming +10haste should be considering to be something you are only doing temporarily.
#2447SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Torq
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
It would be really interesting, though, if he could soak meteor slashes.
If the Meteor Slash is fire damage, the infernal should be immune. I'm assuming that means his portion of the damage is essentially mitigated.
#2448SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1InterSlayer
Originally Posted by Miim View Post
I have been doing some initial testing on Fire lock since the change in 2.4 and here is my thoughts so far.
Would like some more educated and objective input from you guys.

- Personal DPS seems to be more or less the same.. Might even be abit higher fire fire especially on long fights.
- Seems more mana efficient, that leads to less lifetapping and gives a higher substainded DPS.
- Shadow is still more usefull to the raid. Since Fire dont bring anything to the table besides good DPS. We usually raid with 2 shadow destro and me as fire destro so its not a problem. I would not accept all locks to go fire.
- Fire is defiantly more interactive and for me at least more fun to play.
- Shadow buff from Spriest is better than scorch buff from mages due to the fact that it is so much faster to apply. Still no big difference on bossfights (that really matter). When you have 2x Fire Mages.
- Really nice for thrash, with fast casts, and deflag is a great finisher. Its more usefull than shadowburn cause it has longer range.
- You loose some survivability as fire, since it is hard to spec with nether protection and soul leech.
- Fire is also great for more mobile encounters since incinerate is faster to cast and immolate has a DOT effect. (I know immolate is a minor dps upgrade for shadow as well but imo it was never really worth the debuff slot then.

Please anyone that have tested this seriously give me some of your thoughts.
I thought about going fire myself as well, and but was really hesitant to after theorycrafting it and concluding basically everything you just confirmed by trying it out yourself

There's a Twin eredar kill video from a fire-warlock perspective out there, but I think he ended up getting owned on damage by the shadow-destro locks. ;o
#2449SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
achille
does demonic resilience reduce the damage that is transferred to the pet via soul link? prevented isn't the same as reduced.

Last edited by achille : 04/15/08 at 6:32 PM.
#2450SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Nas
Originally Posted by Torq View Post
If the Meteor Slash is fire damage, the infernal should be immune. I'm assuming that means his portion of the damage is essentially mitigated.
He would be immune, but at any rate, he essentially would not be hit by any meteor slashes regardless seeing how pets always adjust to attack from the rear since a few patches ago. I've used an infernal quite a few times on Brutallus, and it has been used on our recent kill, and all those occasions they came out unscratched.

I have also gone 40/21 on the kill with a SL'ed Succubus out, the DPS was very solid and the succubus simply never took any damage that I had noticed with a SP in the group. Brutallus is a pet friendly encounter.
#2451SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Arelenda
People keep saying Fire destro costs less. I'd like to bust this myth. Fire _used_ to be cheaper before the changes to Emberstorm.

Calculation
Shadow Bolt is 420 mana and cast time is 2.5s. SB spam is 420/2.5 = 168 mana per second (MPS)
Incinerate is 375 mana and cast time is 2.25s. Incinerate spam is 375/2.25 = 166 MPS
Immolate is 445 mana and cast time is 1.5s. cost = 296mps.

Updated apparently this needed clarifying.
Let's assume a spell rotation with Immolate, Incinerate x 6.
total mana = 445+ 6 x 375 = 2695. cast time = 1.5s + 6 x 2.25s = 15s. cost = 2695/15 = 180MPS

Assuming 7 Incinerates per immolate, which can be done with enough haste, gives us 178mps. Note that the actual mana cost will be higher due to the haste but this is irrelevant, it'd be the same for shadow.





Conclusion
Shadow Bolt rotation = 168 MPS
Fire rotation = 166 MPS if not keeping up Immolate
Fire rotation with Immolate = 180 MPS

So fire is only cheaper if you're not keeping up Immolate. Raidwise fire is more expensive, unless you're counting on an affliction lock to keep up Immolate at all times. Even assuming this, the difference is marginal at best.



I'm ignoring cataclysm, since I'm assuming both builds have it. If Fire destro doesn't have it, SB spam is definitely cheaper. If fire has it, they need to drop ISB to get it.

I'm ignoring haste since I think it affects both builds equally. Exception is that Immolate becomes less frequent as more haste is obtained. For this reason I'm assuming one Immolate per 6-7 Incinerates. I also don't know how haste interacts with Emberstorm's speed. I don't think the difference will be substantial either way.

In addition, shadow destro can use +shadow damage, which increases Life Tap gains. How much difference this makes depends on the length of the fight and the difference in power between both.


I'd very much like to see the math for stating that optimal strategy is having one warlock for ISB and the others fire. It's true that multiple destro locks will have diminishing returns on ISB uptime, but they will be adding to the raid's shadow damage, resulting in a larger multiplier on the other side. ISB uptime is completely useless as a measure. You want to look at total damage boosted.

Last edited by Arelenda : 04/16/08 at 7:25 AM.
#2452SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Kemi
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
It is all in the spreadsheet.. you will see that the more damage you have the better haste is.. and the more haste you have the worse haste is. Depending on your current gear setup haste might be better than dmg, but I think more often dmg will be better.
...
More so than anything else.. it is the more haste you have the worse it gets, and the further into sunwell you get the more haste you will have, so gemming +10haste should be considering to be something you are only doing temporarily.
I'm in the process (pre-alpha) of writing a Warlock combat simulator (Kemi's warlock simulator and gear comparison list ). While it's most definitely incomplete, there's enough there for me to have some minimal degree of confidence in the general trend of its results.

According to my simulations, haste doesn't get worse the more you have of it--spell damage just gets better the more haste you have, so it looks like haste gets worse (since everyone uses "spell-damage-equivalent" as the standard of comparison). In other words, 15.7 haste rating will always increase your damage from Shadow Bolt spam by 1%, no matter how much haste you already have. But if you're an unhasted 0/21/40 Warlock, a point of shadow damage gives you .423 DPS...and by the time you're hasted to 2-second shadow bolts, that same point of shadow damage is giving you .529 DPS. So you've increased the value of Shadow Damage to you by 25.1%, while the value of Spell Haste has held constant.

I'm open to being proven wrong, but that's what both my number-crunching and my simulator have shown me.

What I'm still uncertain about (and if someone who is better at math could answer this question, I'd be most grateful) is whether increasing levels of spell haste also increase the benefit of spell crit and spell hit. My intuition says, and my preliminary simulation results seem to concur, that spell crit and spell hit are not improved by increasing levels of spell haste in the same way that spell damage is improved, and so sufficient spell haste just makes spell damage far and away the best of the four stats. But I've been unable to prove this to myself (not being good at math).

I'd be very grateful if a more mathematically inclined theorycrafter could establish this one way or another.
#2453SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Sumie
Question for T6 affliction locks--

Do you drop immolate from your rotation once you get 4 piece T6 in favor of more shadowbolts?
#2454SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Flamingcloud
When I said haste gets worse, I did indeed mean in relation to +dmg as you said.. There is no point comparing a stat to a dps increase. There really is no difference between saying haste gets worse with more haste, or saying +dmg gets better with more haste.

As to the other question.. I believe you do not drop immolate unless you are having debuff issues.
#2455SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1outofcontrol
So does end game lock itemization consist of Hit>haste>dmg>crit?
#2456SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by outofcontrol View Post
So does end game lock itemization consist of Hit>haste>dmg>crit?
That would depend on gear, spec, raid setup and encounter. Roughly, I'd say you're correct. Fill your data in the spreadsheet and you'll get a good estimate of what kind of tradeoffs apply to you.


To the person writing the simulator:

For SB Spam for destrolock (excluding ISB and mana issues)

dps = (bolts-per-second) * (average-non-crit-bolt-damage) * (hit chance) * (1 + crit chance)

Common sense tells you that increasing any of these will make the contribution of all other 3 factors larger.
#2457SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Deuel
Dps

Ok so I could use a little help trying to figure out some possible dps increases. First yes, I have already looked and played with the lock spreadsheet, but I wanted to ask as well due to the fact that personal experience is greater than what a spreadsheet may say is better at times. Currently the biggest issue I feel I have is my first trinket slot, I was testing the Xi’ri’s Gift to add to my crit rating, and give myself a double proc trinket. But during our last attempts on Brut, I felt my dps was real slacking, I was in s priest , shaman group and only doing like 2kish dps. (For reference we were running 3 destro locks, 1aff/ruin, and 2 s priest for shadow users). Unfortunately, this trinket is not in the spreadsheet, so I just based my calculations off of Nexus-horn. I believe on next attempt/kill I’m going to switch to icon instead of Gift, but I’m still a little iffy about that. We have not had the best of luck when it comes to trinkets, so I do not have a sextant, or skull(atm), to trade into that spot. For those that may have run into this situation what suggestions could you make? I was also tempted to use Darkmoon deck and fit in destro pots in-between Hex cool downs.

The World of Warcraft Armory

* Here is a link to my armory, to show gear for better reference. I’m open to any possible gear comments also. (I would trade void for IC cloak, if we ever got more than 1 to drop, 8( suck horrid luck on certain caster drops).

Also for those that may be using double proc trinkets, if your using a destro pot, do you prefer/notice a difference if you use them with the trinket usage, or a little after to add something extra in-between cool downs ? Thanks for any advice or suggestion…
#2458SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Clandestine
Originally Posted by Deuel View Post
Ok so I could use a little help trying to figure out some possible dps increases. First yes, I have already looked and played with the lock spreadsheet, but I wanted to ask as well due to the fact that personal experience is greater than what a spreadsheet may say is better at times. Currently the biggest issue I feel I have is my first trinket slot, I was testing the Xi’ri’s Gift to add to my crit rating, and give myself a double proc trinket. But during our last attempts on Brut, I felt my dps was real slacking, I was in s priest , shaman group and only doing like 2kish dps. (For reference we were running 3 destro locks, 1aff/ruin, and 2 s priest for shadow users). Unfortunately, this trinket is not in the spreadsheet, so I just based my calculations off of Nexus-horn. I believe on next attempt/kill I’m going to switch to icon instead of Gift, but I’m still a little iffy about that. We have not had the best of luck when it comes to trinkets, so I do not have a sextant, or skull(atm), to trade into that spot. For those that may have run into this situation what suggestions could you make? I was also tempted to use Darkmoon deck and fit in destro pots in-between Hex cool downs.

The World of Warcraft Armory

* Here is a link to my armory, to show gear for better reference. I’m open to any possible gear comments also. (I would trade void for IC cloak, if we ever got more than 1 to drop, 8( suck horrid luck on certain caster drops).

Also for those that may be using double proc trinkets, if your using a destro pot, do you prefer/notice a difference if you use them with the trinket usage, or a little after to add something extra in-between cool downs ? Thanks for any advice or suggestion…
You should probably log out in your PvE gear if you want advice on it.
#2459SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Deuel
Originally Posted by Clandestine View Post
You should probably log out in your PvE gear if you want advice on it.
Ya noticed that, amory should be fixed by now, i'm logged off in test gear. i was using noose socketed for bonus, shifting nightmare boots, and gift other than current stuff on.
#2460SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Clandestine
For Brutallus you should use Hex-Shrunken Head and the crusade deck. Put a Lionseye or Pyrestone in your bracers, yellow socket bonuses are very much so worth getting. Do you have Ring of Ancient Knowledge, Mana-Attuned Band, or Loop of Forged Power available for ring slot? Depending on which of those you have you probably want to switch rings. Otherwise looks fine.

edit: and you should leave footpads of madness and belt of blasting on instead of using noose and shifting nightmare.

Last edited by Clandestine : 04/16/08 at 4:20 AM.
#2461SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Deuel
Originally Posted by Clandestine View Post
For Brutallus you should use Hex-Shrunken Head and the crusade deck. Put a Lionseye or Pyrestone in your bracers, yellow socket bonuses are very much so worth getting. Do you have Ring of Ancient Knowledge, Mana-Attuned Band, or Loop of Forged Power available for ring slot? Depending on which of those you have you probably want to switch rings. Otherwise looks fine.
I'm waiting for the pyrestone for bracers, Was planning on reckless for that. As for rings i have Mana-Attuned. Passed the RoAK to other casters that wanted them first.
#2462SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1SchLing
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
People keep saying Fire destro costs less. I'd like to bust this myth. Fire _used_ to be cheaper before the changes to Emberstorm.

Calculation
Shadow Bolt is 420 mana and cast time is 2.5s. SB spam is 420/2.5 = 168 mana per second (MPS)
Incinerate is 375 mana and cast time is 2.25s. Incinerate spam is 375/2.25 = 166 MPS
Immolate is 445 mana and cast time is 1.5s. cost = 296mps
Wouldn't Immolate be 1,5s cast time + 15s duration be 16,5s total, meaning it would be 16,9 MPS? Since you won't spam it like Shadowbolts and Incinerate I mean.

But yes, casting Shadowbolts for 1 minute will use 168DPM*60s = 10080MANA

While casting Incinirate + Immolate for 1 minute will use (166DPM*60s = 9960MANA) + (3,5Cast*445MANA = 1557MANA). Making a total for mana usage for that minute 11517. Meaning you will use 1437 more MANA with Incinirate and Immolate.
#2463SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Gilthanor
This isn't something I know how to figure out from the Leulier spreadsheet. We usually have 3-4 warlocks and 1-2 shadow priests in every raid, and my crit chance has just dropped down to about 19% (24% after Devastation). With crit being even lower on the totem pole of stats since haste is more common, how low can a destro lock afford to drop his crit chance and not suffer from a lack of ISB?
#2464SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Mehrfru
Originally Posted by SchLing View Post
Wouldn't Immolate be 1,5s cast time + 15s duration be 16,5s total, meaning it would be 16,9 MPS? Since you won't spam it like Shadowbolts and Incinerate I mean.

But yes, casting Shadowbolts for 1 minute will use 168DPM*60s = 10080MANA

While casting Incinirate + Immolate for 1 minute will use (166DPM*60s = 9960MANA) + (3,5Cast*445MANA = 1557MANA). Making a total for mana usage for that minute 11517. Meaning you will use 1437 more MANA with Incinirate and Immolate.
The mana cost for fire will be more since you use more then 1 immolate during a 1min fight ?

Most t5-t6 geared Destruction locks will be able to cast the SB for 1min using that calculation , while u need to cast immolate 4 times during that minute.

Its 200mana more over 1 min if i counted correctly.

Kind of looks to me that Fire still is not the way to go as warlock ( as always people should play anyway they like ), since as far as i can tell you will be life tapping more , but not gaining the same amount of mana back since going fire probably means u will use pure +fire items dropping your shadowdmg.
#2465SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Miim
Originally Posted by InterSlayer View Post
I thought about going fire myself as well, and but was really hesitant to after theorycrafting it and concluding basically everything you just confirmed by trying it out yourself

There's a Twin eredar kill video from a fire-warlock perspective out there, but I think he ended up getting owned on damage by the shadow-destro locks. ;o

Im going back to shadow /sad face

Im not gonna claim that fire is a bad choice.. Shadow is just better.
Its dps is higher (not much) and its mana efficiany is better (I though this would be one of the advantages with fire)

But what really tips the scale for me is.. You get more survivability with shadow for free.. With nether prot and soul leech.
Its really sad that SB spam destro is so powerfull.
#2466SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1SchLing
Originally Posted by Mehrfru View Post
The mana cost for fire will be more since you use more then 1 immolate during a 1min fight ?

Most t5-t6 geared Destruction locks will be able to cast the SB for 1min using that calculation , while u need to cast immolate 4 times during that minute.

Its 200mana more over 1 min if i counted correctly.

Kind of looks to me that Fire still is not the way to go as warlock ( as always people should play anyway they like ), since as far as i can tell you will be life tapping more , but not gaining the same amount of mana back since going fire probably means u will use pure +fire items dropping your shadowdmg.
If you keep Immolate up for the entire minute you will have to cast between 3 or 4 times, depening on your own timing. I haven't done any math about the DPS for fire, I more or less trust the Warlock DPS spreadsheet for that. But yes, fire isn't more mana efficent if those are the spells you compare with. What produces the most damage per mana is to me a more important issue, and something I haven't looked much into with detail at this point. Even though my gut feeling tells me it is fire. (Sadly guts aren't very good at math.)
#2467SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by SchLing View Post
Wouldn't Immolate be 1,5s cast time + 15s duration be 16,5s total, meaning it would be 16,9 MPS?
The MPS number for Immolate was there not because you'll ever spam it, but to show the huge difference between the cost of Immolate and the other two.

I updated the original post to clarify this.


As for fire being better on trash, I have my issues with that. Here's what I experienced during my stint as fire in ZA:

a. Immolate sucks on trash.
b. Incinerate is clearly inferior to Shadow Bolt without said Immolate.
c. typically mages won't bother with scorch on trash.
d. on trash packs that live long enough, putting CoA on the offtanked adds is clearly superior, and Shadow destro does this better.
e. Conflagrate is nice but generally you want to move to the next target instead of wasting a GCD on a target that will die anyway. The exception is when you want things to die that second, but generally, on trash, this isn't an issue




As to fire vs shadow:

I'm pretty much convinced at this point that the raid benefits most from having all destro warlocks spec Shadow Destro. Fire is definitely higher personal dps if you can juggle your way around the Immolates, but Shadow wins out to group synergies and being easier to play. The difference isn't that high, though, and dependent on raid setup.

Fire's prettier though.

I'd love it if the person writing the simulator would run some tests for this. Writing a computer program to simulate 3 warlocks + 2 shadow priests is rather trivial, and could be used to compare damage outputs. This would be very hard to do with a spreadsheet.
#2468SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Miim
Haste is so hard to "calculate" for me.

For example.. A simple question that dont bring spellhit into the math to mess things up even more ^^

Fathomstone
Binds when picked up
Held In Off-hand
+16 Stamina
+12 Intellect
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves spell critical strike rating by 23 (1.04% @ L70).
Equip: Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 36.

Fetish of the Primal Gods
Binds when picked up
Held In Off-hand
+24 Stamina
+17 Intellect
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves spell haste rating by 17 (1.08% @ L70).
Equip: Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 37.,

What would you choose and why?
(SB Destro spec ofc)
#2469SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Zephro
Originally Posted by Gilthanor View Post
This isn't something I know how to figure out from the Leulier spreadsheet. We usually have 3-4 warlocks and 1-2 shadow priests in every raid, and my crit chance has just dropped down to about 19% (24% after Devastation). With crit being even lower on the totem pole of stats since haste is more common, how low can a destro lock afford to drop his crit chance and not suffer from a lack of ISB?
It'll depend on the crit chance of your other warlocks, so there isn't an easy answer. You can fill this in on the spreadsheet and look at the "next point of..." box to give you an idea of what effect the different stats will have.

I know how you feel, though. I *finally* got a Nethervoid cloak last week and equipping it gets me down to 18.2% char-sheet crit, which is uncomfortably low.
#2470SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1XT74
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
People keep saying Fire destro costs less. I'd like to bust this myth. Fire _used_ to be cheaper before the changes to Emberstorm.
There is no myth to be busted. There was no change to emberstorm that lesser effectivity of fire . Only meaningfull stat in which u can measure mana effectivity of spell is damage done per mana point spent and there is no change in that.

MPS doesnt say anything about mana effectivity, who cares if i go oom sooner while dealing same dmg ? I do becouse it means my dps increases and im even more effective than before !
#2471SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Flamingcloud
Fathomstone vs Fetish question is not answerable. It depends not only on your own gear, how highly you rate stamina, but it also depends on how you setup your raids shadow users in the improve shadowbolt tab of the spreadsheet.


And who cares what costs what mana, all that matters is dps AFTER lifetap is factored in.
#2472SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Krazen
Originally Posted by Deuel View Post
I'm waiting for the pyrestone for bracers, Was planning on reckless for that. As for rings i have Mana-Attuned. Passed the RoAK to other casters that wanted them first.
Wow, I wish I had spinels to throw around like that!

If you are going to use destro pots, though, I'd macro it into my hexhead and pop them together at around the 1, 3, and 5 minute marks, preferrably with heroism on 2 of these.
#2473SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
Originally Posted by Gilthanor View Post
This isn't something I know how to figure out from the Leulier spreadsheet. We usually have 3-4 warlocks and 1-2 shadow priests in every raid, and my crit chance has just dropped down to about 19% (24% after Devastation). With crit being even lower on the totem pole of stats since haste is more common, how low can a destro lock afford to drop his crit chance and not suffer from a lack of ISB?
This is very much possible to figure out on the spreadsheet. It has the option to let you put the shadow users in the "RAID ISB" tab and check the "RAID ISB TNS" so that extra DPS from ISB to the raid will be included when it calculates the value of crit rating. And these values generally work just as well for increasing stats as they are for decreasing stats, so if it tells you 1 crit rating = 1 spell damage, and you have a lot of items that will increase spell damage by 1.1 points per crit rating lost, you can start switching your stats to as if you were wearing those items until you see it shift to 1 crit rating = 1.1 damage, at which point swapping more of those items isn't worth it (but swapping items that will give 1.2 damage isntead of 1 crit rating will be still worthwhile).

In other words, there are no minimum values of any stat you should be looking for, and the spreadsheet does have answers to all your questions.
#2474SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by XT74 View Post
There is no myth to be busted. There was no change to emberstorm that lesser effectivity of fire . Only meaningfull stat in which u can measure mana effectivity of spell is damage done per mana point spent and there is no change in that.

MPS doesnt say anything about mana effectivity, who cares if i go oom sooner while dealing same dmg ? I do becouse it means my dps increases and im even more effective than before !
I normally don't nitpick spelling or grammar, but I'm having a hard time trying to figure out exactly what you mean. Can you clarify?
#2475SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Trickykid
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
As to fire vs shadow:

I'm pretty much convinced at this point that the raid benefits most from having all destro warlocks spec Shadow Destro. Fire is definitely higher personal dps if you can juggle your way around the Immolates, but Shadow wins out to group synergies and being easier to play. The difference isn't that high, though, and dependent on raid setup.

Fire's prettier though.

I'd love it if the person writing the simulator would run some tests for this. Writing a computer program to simulate 3 warlocks + 2 shadow priests is rather trivial, and could be used to compare damage outputs. This would be very hard to do with a spreadsheet.
You can figure out the amount of raid DPS lost from going Shadow->Fire on the spreadsheet. The number depends largely on the number of shadow dealers and the ratio of the classes. Spreadsheet fire damage beats shadow for personal DPS, and for many raid groups will beat personal DPS + raid DPS through ISB.

At the end of the day, they're both very close in terms of total Raid DPS contribution and comes down to a choice of consolidating DPS (in you) or spreading it to other shadow users and slightly buffing the SP's group with slightly more regen.
#2476SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Kemi
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Common sense tells you that increasing any of these will make the contribution of all other 3 factors larger.
Common sense tells one many things that are not true. I've already had my common sense overturned by my simulator results more than once, and I'm not interested in arguments based on common sense. I'm interested in observed numbers and mathematical proofs.

But perhaps I've expressed my concern badly. Consider the following, please:

1) No matter how much haste I have, 15.7 haste rating will always increase my DPS by 1% (setting aside, temporarily, the question of mana issues).

2) If I have zero shadow damage, adding 100 shadow damage increases my DPS by something like 20%. If I have 1500 shadow damage, adding 100 shadow damage increases my DPS by something like 5%. That's a pretty drastic drop-off in the effectiveness of shadow damage at increasing my DPS.

3) If I have zero crit, adding 1% crit increases my damage by more than 1% (because of ISB). If I have 99% crit, adding 1% crit increases my damage by 0.5%. Again, 50% less effective at 99% crit than at 0% crit.

So, just from looking at this, it would seem that highly geared people would want to invest more in spell haste, because it continues to offer the same percent increase in DPS (and applied to a higher base DPS, even!) per rating point, while both spell damage and crit offer smaller percent increases in DPS per rating point as gear improves.

But that's not what the simulator is showing, and that's because, as far as I can tell, the synergistic effects of each stat on the others are non-linear.

It's that precise non-linearity that I'm having trouble modeling (mostly because my practical math knowledge stops at algebra, in spite of a painful year spent in Calc 1).

Here's the thing--as far as I can tell, when evaluating the effect of 1 point of crit rating or 1 point of hit rating, it matters not at all whether I have 0 haste rating or 1000 haste rating. But when evaluating the effect of 1 point of shadow damage, it matters a great deal.

If you have a lot of spell haste, you will see a bigger percent increase in DPS per point of shadow damage. But the percent increase in DPS per point of crit is not affected by how much spell haste you have.

And that's why it matters whether "spell haste gets worse the more you have" or "spell damage gets better the more spell haste you have". Because if the former is true, then spell damage and spell crit remain in the same relationship with each other, and spell haste falls behind them. But if the latter is true, then spell crit and spell haste remain in the same relationship with each other, and spell haste pulls ahead of them.

This seems to be what my simulations are showing: that as you get more spell haste, spell crit and spell hit start to lag behind spell damage.

Thoughts?
#2477SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Vlar
Originally Posted by Sumie View Post
Question for T6 affliction locks--

Do you drop immolate from your rotation once you get 4 piece T6 in favor of more shadowbolts?

Check the spreadsheet. I am mid-way through Tier 6 content (5/5 MH and 5/9 BT) and have not had immolate in my rotation for a while.
#2478SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Sylvannae
My guild currently doesn't use curse of recklessness, though granted we do not have warriors with improved demoralizing shout. Is this wrong? I understand that CoR is a 5-6% increase in physical DPS, but just how does the increased AP evaluate? I am under the assumption that only one +AP and only one -AP can work on any single target, though this may be wrong.

Curse priority as far as I understand is CoS, then CoE, then CoR. Should we be using CoR regardless of the fact that we do not have improved DS?
#2479SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Vlar
Originally Posted by Sylvannae View Post
My guild currently doesn't use curse of recklessness, though granted we do not have warriors with improved demoralizing shout. Is this wrong? I understand that CoR is a 5-6% increase in physical DPS, but just how does the increased AP evaluate? I am under the assumption that only one +AP and only one -AP can work on any single target, though this may be wrong.

Curse priority as far as I understand is CoS, then CoE, then CoR. Should we be using CoR regardless of the fact that we do not have improved DS?

You would need to answer a few questions before your final could be answered.

Note: Most, if not all of this is in the first post.

First, what is your raids average physical dps? (Hunters, Enh. Shaman, Rogues, Warriors, Feral Druids.) Remember that would include the tanks dps, since even though it should be miniscule compared to the others, it would increase as well.

Would that increase out damage your dps from Curse of Doom?

Do your healers have issues keeping the tank alive?
#2480SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by Kemi View Post
Common sense tells one many things that are not true. I've already had my common sense overturned by my simulator results more than once, and I'm not interested in arguments based on common sense. I'm interested in observed numbers and mathematical proofs.

(snip)

This seems to be what my simulations are showing: that as you get more spell haste, spell crit and spell hit start to lag behind spell damage.

Thoughts?
For crit I could accept that. ISB is very elusive and hard to model.

But for hit rating? Lagging behind? If we ignore dots, hit is equivalent to haste: it will allow you to land more spells in a given time frame. One stat will get you less resists, while the other lets you cast more spells.

If you increase hit chance from 90% to 99%, you should get a 10% increase in damage, regardless of your crit, haste, or spelldamage. If your simulator tells you otherwise, I'd go look for programming errors.
#2481SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
Your simulator seems to ignore a lot of factors that the spreadsheet is handling well. Unless there's a serious flaw in the spreadsheet that you found that makes you not want to use it (in which case, point it out) - you're probably better off using the spreadsheet since it will take into account things that you ignore.

When you generlize things and ignore small corrections like ISB effects and lifetaps (and yes, they're small but far from neglicible which is why we use the spreadsheet), DPS = (base damage + dmg X coefficient) * (1 + crit chance) * hit chance * (1 + haste increase). Understanding that basis tells you everything you need to know about how stats scale in general. Not the most accurate since it ignores some small corrections, but it should get the idea through of how stats scale. If you look at the relative DPS you just calculate new dps/old dps - 1, which means any stat you left constant will not matter since it appears both in the dividor and the dividend with same value (excuse my english if I used an improper term )
#2482SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Trickykid
Originally Posted by Kemi View Post
This seems to be what my simulations are showing: that as you get more spell haste, spell crit and spell hit start to lag behind spell damage.
The spreadsheet, and simple intuitions based on a relatively small number of factors in a spell-spamming scenario, show every other DPS-contributing stat increasing in DPS/point if you raise haste. Haste drops by a small amount in DPS/point (due to nonzero MP5). The simple intuition is that haste speeds up the entire rotation, which means all of the other stats will be used more per unit of time. If I cast 20 spells a minute and haste myself to 21: crit, hit and +dmg all affect one more spell per minute.
#2483SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1PSGarak
Kemi: X% compared to what? Percent changes aren't necessarily the best thing to be looking at anyways. For a fixed crit/hit/haste, 100 damage adds a flat amount of damage. That flat amount of damage is, like you say, 20% of the damage you would do at 0 spell damage and 5% of the damage you would do at 1500 spell damage... that would seem to indicate that the percentages are illusory.

The percent benefit by adding crit drops off dramatically, but the flat damage increase dropss off rather slowly. If it weren't for ISB, it wouldn't drop off at all, it would just be a static damage increase at fixed damage, just like +dmg is a static damage increase for fixed crit. ISB is, as we have noted, hard to model, but it is known to be monotonically decreasing.

Haste scaling works the same way. 100% haste gives you twice the damage of 0% haste; 200% haste gives you three times the damage. The first and second 100% haste have given you the same amount of damage. Hit and crit are capped at 100% hit/crit, haste is capped at 1.0s global cooldown.

How do these scalings interact? They multiply simply. The complicated part you're seeing isn't very far off from linear, except for crit. It's called affine linear: There are additive constants on all the terms, which get caught by all the other terms. It makes them look like they're behaving funky. Basically, when you try to change two variables at the same time (say hit and crit), there's the expected second-order term (hit*crit), but also two extra terms (crit*constant and dmg*constant) from the base damage and base crit chance. Asymptotically those extra terms become irrelevant, but the point where that's true is impossible so we have to muck around with them.
#2484SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Carnate
Originally Posted by Sylvannae View Post
My guild currently doesn't use curse of recklessness, though granted we do not have warriors with improved demoralizing shout. Is this wrong? I understand that CoR is a 5-6% increase in physical DPS, but just how does the increased AP evaluate? I am under the assumption that only one +AP and only one -AP can work on any single target, though this may be wrong.

Curse priority as far as I understand is CoS, then CoE, then CoR. Should we be using CoR regardless of the fact that we do not have improved DS?

Quote from the Compendium

Curse of Recklessness - Stacks with every other armor reducing debuff, and will typically increase melee and hunter damage by around 6% if FF and 5xSunder Armor are present, according to [RAID] Boss armor values. You typically want as many armor reducing debuffs on a boss as possible, since each one adds more (Increasing Returns, as opposed to Diminishing). It will make the enemy hit slightly harder, though. To be avoided when the boss has an ability that is based on his melee attack power, such as Mortal Strike or Cleave. Useful on enemies that don't hit hard enough for a tank to keep aggro, it will help with their threat generation on those by a small amount.

CoD vs CoR: Which one is more profitable depends on the raid setup. More physical dps means CoR becomes better, obviously. Physical Raid Dps needs to exceed (CoD damage / 3.6) for CoR to be the better choice. (CoD dps = CoD damage/60, and CoR dps = Physical dps *0.06). Note however that you need to refresh CoD twice as often.


Simply put if you have more than 3333 physical raid DPS then CoR is better than CoD (assuming 12k CoD which is T6 lock range). So CoR should be up every fight. In most raid setups it's better than CoS or CoE.

Exceptions are those bosses that have special attacks affected by the attack power or who already have 0 armor. Illiadan & Gurtogg during their enrages are two times that we don't use CoR.
#2485SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Raithlin
Can anyone confirm for me that a nether protection proc while tanking Illidan would in fact cause mayhem and carnage?

i.e. does a proc cause aggro to reset or would a lock spamming SP still be able to keep hold of him?

Thanks
#2486SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1 Caffeine
Originally Posted by Raithlin View Post
Can anyone confirm for me that a nether protection proc while tanking Illidan would in fact cause mayhem and carnage?

i.e. does a proc cause aggro to reset or would a lock spamming SP still be able to keep hold of him?

Thanks
It doesn't reset threat, but it makes you immune to his attacks for the duration of the proc and he will turn for 2nd on the aggro list and Shadow Blast him instead. If you are going to tank Illidan, either spec out of it or have a macro with /cancelaura Nether Protection, which you need to spam (but I don't recommend this, it's how I know for sure he will ignore the warlock tank and turn for 2nd on threat :P )
#2487SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Flamingcloud
Heh.. One of our locks tried to tank illidian while spamming a macro to remove nether protection.. Didn't work, we wiped, everyone got mad at him =p
#2488SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Kalle
Originally Posted by Kemi View Post
1) No matter how much haste I have, 15.7 haste rating will always increase my DPS by 1% (setting aside, temporarily, the question of mana issues).
This is wrong. Your DPS is
dps(haste_rating) = unhasted_dps * (1 + haste_rating/1577)

Increasing your haste rating from 0 to 15.77 (0% -> 1%) yields an increase of
dps(15.77) / dps(0) - 1 = 1.01 / 1 - 1 = 1%

Increasing your haste rating from 157.7 to 173.47 (10% -> 11%) yields an increase of
dps(173.47) / dps(157.7) - 1 = 1.11 / 1.1 - 1 = 0.91%
#2489SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
I think the compendium needs to be fixed then, since CoD DPS is not just the damage divided by 60s, as you have to substract the shadowbolt DPS lost by spending that GCD as well, so the DPS increase is actually smaller.
#2490SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Arelenda
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
I think the compendium needs to be fixed then, since CoD DPS is not just the damage divided by 60s, as you have to substract the shadowbolt DPS lost by spending that GCD as well, so the DPS increase is actually smaller.
The compendium already mentions this.. It's one GCD per two minutes.

Last edited by Arelenda : 04/17/08 at 11:09 AM.
#2491SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
Originally Posted by Carnate View Post
Quote from the Compendium

[...]

CoD vs CoR: Which one is more profitable depends on the raid setup. More physical dps means CoR becomes better, obviously. Physical Raid Dps needs to exceed (CoD damage / 3.6) for CoR to be the better choice. (CoD dps = CoD damage/60, and CoR dps = Physical dps *0.06). Note however that you need to refresh CoD twice as often.

[...]
My bad then, I thought this was quoted from the compendium
#2492SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
My bad then, I thought this was quoted from the compendium
It is. and it's right there.
#2493SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Telyz
have you discusses if immolate and Incinerate is better then SB and what lvl gear would it be better?
#2494SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
I suppose you mentioned double GCD usage, although it's probably more appropriate to also mention that the damage lost due to that extra GCD is simply 3/5 shadowbolt (plus some neglicible difference in mana consumption).
#2495SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1 Eph
I mentioned this in another thread, but this is the Brutallus specific spec I used once we decided to use a SE Affliction lock. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

In the spreadsheet I found Ruin and Imp attacking (since he will live here) to be the highest dps setup. With an improved curse and Imp dps the rdps loss wasn't too bad. Though if your healers can handle it Destruction is obviously the still best choice for Brut.
#2496SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Tacitus
update: Heroism/Bloodlust do NOT decrease the global cooldown of 1.5s for warlocks. Haste rating does (since patch 2.4) and is therefore a very good stat for any warlock now. Global cooldown is capped 1s, making the haste cap 50%, which is near 800, not obtainable in a raid setting. Haste still suffers from diminishing returns due to your MP5 not contributing, but for most purposes pretty much provides linear increase to your dps. Total dps = unhasted dps * (1+haste rating/1577)
Wouldn't 50% haste mean your GCD would be 1,5s/2=0,75s? Meaning that the haste cap for GCD is slightly over 500 or 33,333... %?
#2497SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Trickykid
Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
Wouldn't 50% haste mean your GCD would be 1,5s/2=0,75s? Meaning that the haste cap for GCD is slightly over 500 or 33,333... %?
dividing by 2 would be 100% haste.

50% haste -> 1.5s / (1+0.5) = 1.0s, so the original post is correct.
#2498SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
Wouldn't 50% haste mean your GCD would be 1,5s/2=0,75s? Meaning that the haste cap for GCD is slightly over 500 or 33,333... %?
Haste speed modifier = 1 / (1 + haste rating / 1577)

We're talking about 738 haste rating, resulting in 1/(1 + 0.5) for a reduction of 33%.

GCD is then 1s. Which is the cap.
#2499SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
And that's only the cap for GCD spells, shadowbolts would gain from haste until you have 150% haste which is even more impossible to get. Not like the old GCD was a real limitation as back in 2.3 you still needed 67% haste to stop benefiting from it.
#2500SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by Telyz View Post
have you discusses if immolate and Incinerate is better then SB and what lvl gear would it be better?
There is a post somewhere called "Warlock PVE raiding compendium", I suggest you check it out.
#2501SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Tacitus
Allrighty then, seems that I need to study math a little more.
#2502SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Fateblade
Inferno


Thanks for the hot tip on the infernals.

Last edited by Fateblade : 04/19/08 at 12:32 AM.
#2503SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Kuradoberi
Fire destro dps loss

Is the bonus damage provided by having Immolate up, affected by spelldamage gear or is it just a flat bonus?

This question is nagging me, since I am testing fire destro. The leulier spreadsheet says I gain ~3% more personal dps, provided i have godlike timing with 100% Immolate uptime.
While testing it ( 5/5 mh, 4/9 bt ), some issues came up. Clipping Immolate and Incinerate without Immolate up.

Taking my first night as fire as an example : Kuradoberi - WWS

Provided I can do around 4 Immolates per minute, and I happen to clip it everytime, my rough draft tells me I will have an avg dps loss of (4x493)/60 =~ 33 dps.

The leulier spreadsheet does not have a formula for Incinerate without Immolate up, since clicking Immolate on/off does not show any difference at all.

Depending whether the bonusdamage is affected spelldamage gear, what is a greater dps loss? Clipping Immolate or having your 5/6/7th Incinerate doing damage without Immolate up, depending on your rotation.
#2504SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1garazdawi
If possible/needed I always try to get a lifetap in at the end of the immolate, otherwise I'd rather clip the immo than to let a inc hit without immo. Feels like a tic of immo always will be less damage than what you loose out on a inc hitting without immo.
#2505SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by Kuradoberi View Post
Is the bonus damage provided by having Immolate up, affected by spelldamage gear or is it just a flat bonus?

This question is nagging me, since I am testing fire destro. The leulier spreadsheet says I gain ~3% more personal dps, provided i have godlike timing with 100% Immolate uptime.
While testing it ( 5/5 mh, 4/9 bt ), some issues came up. Clipping Immolate and Incinerate without Immolate up.

Taking my first night as fire as an example : Kuradoberi - WWS

Provided I can do around 4 Immolates per minute, and I happen to clip it everytime, my rough draft tells me I will have an avg dps loss of (4x493)/60 =~ 33 dps.

The leulier spreadsheet does not have a formula for Incinerate without Immolate up, since clicking Immolate on/off does not show any difference at all.

Depending whether the bonusdamage is affected spelldamage gear, what is a greater dps loss? Clipping Immolate or having your 5/6/7th Incinerate doing damage without Immolate up, depending on your rotation.
It is a flat bonus, so only multipliers count towards it.

I'd recommend not clipping Immolate by using Life Tap near the end of the Immo duration, and just using an Incinerate with Immo up if Life Tap isn't needed. Note that other warlock's Immolate count too.

The messing about with the Immo debuff is one of my main reasons not to play with fire.
#2506SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Talimar
according to the spreadsheet a reckless pyrestone is worth a tiny bit more dps than a runed crimson spinel.
however when I replace my spinels with pyrestones, my dps drops?


also I'm wondering how many mages do you need for CoE to outdamage CoD? Im telling myself at least 3 but I throw it up when theres only two as well just so they wont qq at me.
#2507SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Lovecraft
Originally Posted by Talimar View Post
also I'm wondering how many mages do you need for CoE to outdamage CoD? Im telling myself at least 3 but I throw it up when theres only two as well just so they wont qq at me.
Simplistically speaking, find out (via WWS parse, or even damage meter data) the DPS done from fire and frost damage in the raid. Then add on the DPS gained from four GCDs by the warlock who would be casting CoE over CoD (2.4 shadowbolts). If 10% (assuming no Malediction on CoE) of that is more DPS than your CoD, then it's worth using CoE.

That should give you a rough estimate. There are other factors, such as when you'd be using CoA over CoD if TTD was less than one minute, but that shouldn't adversely affect the calculation, given there'd be a much larger deviation in raid DPS from week to week than CoD to CoA DPS/DPCT.
#2508SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Kalle
Originally Posted by Kuradoberi
Is the bonus damage provided by having Immolate up, affected by spelldamage gear or is it just a flat bonus?
It is not affected by spelldamage. The damage of a spell is calculated as (base_dmg + spell_coefficient * spelldmg) * some_coefficient. Having imolate on the target simply increases the base damage. It is however subject to the same modifiers as incinerate, like debuffs, talents, critical strike bonus etc.

Originally Posted by Kuradoberi
Depending whether the bonusdamage is affected spelldamage gear, what is a greater dps loss? Clipping Immolate or having your 5/6/7th Incinerate doing damage without Immolate up, depending on your rotation.
One immolate tick is (123 + 0.13 * fdmg) * coefficient. Bonus damage of incinerate is 120 * coefficient * (1 + crit_coeff * crit), with crit_coeff being 0.5 without ruin or CSD, 0.545 without ruin but with CSD, 1.0 with ruin but without CSD and 1.09 with ruin and CSD. At every realistic gear level, the immolate tick will do more damage.
#2509SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1garazdawi
CoD does about 10k damage over 60 seconds. So that is 10,000/60 = 166 dps. CoE adds 10% to any mage (and fire lock!) in the raid. So they have to do more than 1666 dps together to make CoE worth it. The mages I play with all deliver that DPS on their own, so just one mage is enough to put CoE up. If you are just starting to raid karazhan and mage should still be able to output atleast 800 dps so with 2 mages CoE should be up.
#2510SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
1. Look at the ISB DPS, when it's taken into account when evaluating "next stat" but doesn't add it to your DPS when you just change your damage/crit.

2. Turn yourself from CoE to CoD on the spreadsheet and see your DPS difference, then see if it's more than mage DPS / 10. For my example gear CoD DPS gain is 173 so mages would need to total at least 1730 DPS. If your gear is better then CoD will do a bit more DPS requiring a bit more - this makes 1 fire mage really situational depending on exactly how much you get from CoD vs CoE and how much DPS he does, but if you have 2 fire mages it's a no-brainer to CoE. If mages are arcane though it depends how much of their damage is actually from arcane and how much is from frost (assuming a standard 40/0/21 arcane spec) so you'll have to take into account fight duration and the support they have as well... Anyway you definitely don't *need* 3 mages to use CoE, but you do need 3 warlocks since CoS and CoR are quite better in any realistic raid.
#2511SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Zasz
Any ideas how I can convince my raidleader to stop sticking me to the tank group? Yesterday for example we did BT up to bloodboil and I was in the group with 3 prot warriors and a bear. I´m one of 2 affliction warlocks in our guild, the other 3 are full destru. For akama I was lucky enough to get to the group with 2 warlocks, 1 elemental and 1 mage.
#2512SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Thanahtos
Originally Posted by Zasz View Post
Any ideas how I can convince my raidleader to stop sticking me to the tank group? Yesterday for example we did BT up to bloodboil and I was in the group with 3 prot warriors and a bear. I´m one of 2 affliction warlocks in our guild, the other 3 are full destru. For akama I was lucky enough to get to the group with 2 warlocks, 1 elemental and 1 mage.

No offense, but the reason you're in the raid as affliction, is to be in the tank group to give Improved Imp... I'm sorta confused.

There's something called "Raid Utility" and affliction is a "Raid Utility" spec, if you want pure personal DPS, you'd be destruction.
#2513SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Emolate
Originally Posted by Zasz View Post
Any ideas how I can convince my raidleader to stop sticking me to the tank group? Yesterday for example we did BT up to bloodboil and I was in the group with 3 prot warriors and a bear. I´m one of 2 affliction warlocks in our guild, the other 3 are full destru. For akama I was lucky enough to get to the group with 2 warlocks, 1 elemental and 1 mage.
Look at the WWS and do the math on whether or not the Imp is helping Group 1.
#2514SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
barlaniel
Sunwell brutallus Dps

My guild is currently on brutallus and i have a couple of questions about my own dps.
Fully raid buffed i have 1530 shadow dmg 30%crit (talents inc) hit cap and no spell haste gear.
Now heres what i need to know currently i seem to be capped at around 2000 dps.Ive looked over a lot of wws reports of brutallus kills and from all this ive come to the conclusion that since my guild is going to be using 2 shadow priests and 1 or 2 others who dont have 4 pc yet there has to be some extra dps coming from the top 5. I fairly sure ill be one of these but i just dont think that 2000 dps cuts it. I do have a shaman in my group and i think ill be gettin a shadow preist although not 100% sure yet. Either way however even with a s. preist i cant get above 2000 dps. I use destruction potions as well as litterly ride the tanks ass all the way home on on terron and the few brutallus attempts we have had. What can i do to boost my dps to the 2200-2400 range that i continusly see on the wws reports of bruallus kills. I dont have a skull of guldan , but atelast from what ive read it shoudlnt add 200+dps.
Does Dps rely on the timing of the first hit and the size of it? Ive noticed that if i start off with a 9800 crit or something similar my dps at the end of the fight seems higher then if i start with a normal non crit.I never did check to see if the damage done at the end of the fights changes i tend to only look at straight dps. Does that matter at all or is that just me overanalizing? Are the warlocks in those wws reports gettin chain heroisms?
All i kno is i wanna see my numbers in the 2200-2400 range.Drums i kno can increase the groups dps we have only 3 who have them but other then drums any other tips or suggestions?

Also we have 4 destro locks right now so ISB is up almost all the time. Does having an 1 shadow preist vs 2 increase its uptime? Thats another thing i have been wondering heavily since midblast is a 1.5 sec cast they eat up the isb debuff's at a rate of 2 per 1.2 shadow bolts ,And shadow word death is instant. since we have 4 locks doesnt that reduce the uptime? meaning that Evry 8 and 12 sec we would loose out on basically 3 of the 4 warlocks 20%extra dmg. i did the math and a destro warlock benifits more from the same 20% but my point is having 4 warlocks with 100%+crit altogether with anything more than 1 shadow preist reduces dps and dmg of the 3 of the 4 locks with 1 lock gettin randomly lucky evry 8 to 12 sec.

im not sayin s preist should not use death and mind blast cause that is way to much dps loss but is there a cap where having X amount of warlocks mixed with X amount of shadow preists becomes counterproductive.
i may be wrong on that last part its just a theory but either way i hope someone out there has thought as hard about fine tuning dmg output.

Last edited by barlaniel : 04/18/08 at 8:58 AM.
#2515SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1taybul
Originally Posted by barlaniel View Post
My guild is currently on brutallus and i have a couple of questions about my own dps.
Fully raid buffed i have 1530 shadow dmg 30%crit (talents inc) hit cap and no spell haste gear.
Now heres what i need to know currently i seem to be capped at around 2000 dps.Ive looked over a lot of wws reports of brutallus kills and from all this ive come to the conclusion that since my guild is going to be using 2 shadow priests and 1 or 2 others who dont have 4 pc yet there has to be some extra dps coming from the top 5. I fairly sure ill be one of these but i just dont think that 2000 dps cuts it. I do have a shaman in my group and i think ill be gettin a shadow preist although not 100% sure yet. Either way however even with a s. preist i cant get above 2000 dps. I use destruction potions as well as litterly ride the tanks ass all the way home on on terron and the few brutallus attempts we have had. What can i do to boost my dps to the 2200-2400 range that i continusly see on the wws reports of bruallus kills. I dont have a skull of guldan , but atelast from what ive read it shoudlnt add 200+dps.
Does Dps rely on the timing of the first hit and the size of it? Ive noticed that if i start off with a 9800 crit or something similar my dps at the end of the fight seems higher then if i start with a normal non crit.I never did check to see if the damage done at the end of the fights changes i tend to only look at straight dps. Does that matter at all or is that just me overanalizing? Are the warlocks in those wws reports gettin chain heroisms?
All i kno is i wanna see my numbers in the 2200-2400 range.Drums i kno can increase the groups dps we have only 3 who have them but other then drums any other tips or suggestions?

Also we have 4 destro locks right now so ISB is up almost all the time. Does having an 1 shadow preist vs 2 increase its uptime? Thats another thing i have been wondering heavily since midblast is a 1.5 sec cast they eat up the isb debuff's at a rate of 2 per 1.2 shadow bolts ,And shadow word death is instant. since we have 4 locks doesnt that reduce the uptime? meaning that Evry 8 and 12 sec we would loose out on basically 3 of the 4 warlocks 20%extra dmg. i did the math and a destro warlock benifits more from the same 20% but my point is having 4 warlocks with 100%+crit altogether with anything more than 1 shadow preist reduces dps and dmg of the 3 of the 4 locks with 1 lock gettin randomly lucky evry 8 to 12 sec.

im not sayin s preist should not use death and mind blast cause that is way to much dps loss but is there a cap where having X amount of warlocks mixed with X amount of shadow preists becomes counterproductive.
i may be wrong on that last part its just a theory but either way i hope someone out there has thought as hard about fine tuning dmg output.
Be sure you pop your trinkets every single cooldown during this fight, except maybe the beginning to let the tank build agro. Also be sure you have your consumables: oil, flask of pure death, well fed buff.
#2516SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
Just look at the spreadsheet, play around with number of shadow users of each type and you'll get your answers of how much DPS you lose from less ISB form having an extra shadowpriest. But I can already tell you with 4 warlocks the difference in ISB will not be big when you change from 1 to 2 shadowpriests. The extra mana those shadowpriests give to their parties and thus their extra dps is a lot more beneficial unless you're trying to do all the DPS yourself in which case you may just need to find a new guild.
#2517SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Flamingcloud
Warlocks pulling 2000dps on brutallus is probably fine if you have amazing melee.. If you best lock is 2000, and the other three below that you are probably in trouble in a 8 healer setup. We usually have three locks averaging around 2300 followed by most of the raid at 1800-2050dps.

Having 0 spell haste is pretty bad. You would probably get alot of benefit out of +10haste gems. Super Mana pots are usually better than destruction potions, I use 2 super manas and a destruction pot under heroism. Usually have 1 drum in my group so we drums at 1minute, 3minute, 5minute and I trinket at that time as well.
#2518SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1dakalro
Originally Posted by barlaniel View Post
My guild is currently on brutallus and i have a couple of questions about my own dps.
Fully raid buffed i have 1530 shadow dmg 30%crit (talents inc) hit cap and no spell haste gear.
Now heres what i need to know currently i seem to be capped at around 2000 dps.Ive looked over a lot of wws reports of brutallus kills and from all this ive come to the conclusion that since my guild is going to be using 2 shadow priests and 1 or 2 others who dont have 4 pc yet there has to be some extra dps coming from the top 5. I fairly sure ill be one of these but i just dont think that 2000 dps cuts it. I do have a shaman in my group and i think ill be gettin a shadow preist although not 100% sure yet. Either way however even with a s. preist i cant get above 2000 dps. I use destruction potions as well as litterly ride the tanks ass all the way home on on terron and the few brutallus attempts we have had. What can i do to boost my dps to the 2200-2400 range that i continusly see on the wws reports of bruallus kills. I dont have a skull of guldan , but atelast from what ive read it shoudlnt add 200+dps.
Does Dps rely on the timing of the first hit and the size of it? Ive noticed that if i start off with a 9800 crit or something similar my dps at the end of the fight seems higher then if i start with a normal non crit.I never did check to see if the damage done at the end of the fights changes i tend to only look at straight dps. Does that matter at all or is that just me overanalizing? Are the warlocks in those wws reports gettin chain heroisms?
All i kno is i wanna see my numbers in the 2200-2400 range.Drums i kno can increase the groups dps we have only 3 who have them but other then drums any other tips or suggestions?

Also we have 4 destro locks right now so ISB is up almost all the time. Does having an 1 shadow preist vs 2 increase its uptime? Thats another thing i have been wondering heavily since midblast is a 1.5 sec cast they eat up the isb debuff's at a rate of 2 per 1.2 shadow bolts ,And shadow word death is instant. since we have 4 locks doesnt that reduce the uptime? meaning that Evry 8 and 12 sec we would loose out on basically 3 of the 4 warlocks 20%extra dmg. i did the math and a destro warlock benifits more from the same 20% but my point is having 4 warlocks with 100%+crit altogether with anything more than 1 shadow preist reduces dps and dmg of the 3 of the 4 locks with 1 lock gettin randomly lucky evry 8 to 12 sec.

im not sayin s preist should not use death and mind blast cause that is way to much dps loss but is there a cap where having X amount of warlocks mixed with X amount of shadow preists becomes counterproductive.
i may be wrong on that last part its just a theory but either way i hope someone out there has thought as hard about fine tuning dmg output.
1. Use mana potions, search around and you'll see they give about double benefit to destro potions (unless you're totally threat capped and rely on LT to slow your TPS).
2. The difference in the number of shadow priests is minimal, your biggest drawback is wildly varying crit rates for the warlocks.
3. Drums help, a lot. Though my group only has 3 drums (I never had the heart to give up either tailoring or enchanting, too many recipes, too much time, too little time to grind at this moment due to work - had my consumables ready maybe a month before Sunwell).
4. Threat that's available to you. I can usually start nicely but get to 115%+ quite fast if I go all out, I don't even pop trinkets cause I'd be up there at less than 1 minute into the fight. Mostly LT if I have the mana deficit, watch the walls, slow down for a while - cast, don't try to beat the latency. At around 60-65% I shatter and pop everything pretty much going all out, trying to time for latency, trying to be at full mana right before. I know this limits my dps by a lot because I start out at over 2.2-2.3k but still nets me somewhere around 2.2k dps at the end, after hero (mostly dependant on luck with crits, I never seem to get a kill when I have some nice crit, at least not below my normal) with riding the line of 1.9-2k for the first part of the fight where I pretty much slack.
Too bad attempts where tanks get nice threat we seem to always fail, it's a huge difference with what you can do when you can't reach over 100% no matter how hard you try. Hoping our huge batch of new healers get geared/accustomed to the right way of healing so we can have our Prot pally do it compared to him healing on his ZA alt. With the boss' attack speed pure Holy Shield consumption is ~1k tps.
#2519SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1rochan
I'm sort of confused by agro on Felmyst. I will be at 100-120% of the tank while she is on the ground, then get up to about 140-150% when she flies. However, when she lands, she goes straight for the tank again. Is it possible you don't generate threat when she is flying? How have others been finding this fight threat-wise? When are you soul shattering. If you shatter at the first flight you can ss twice in the fight, or would you wait til later say just before a heroism.

Also this fight makes warlocks look great on dps meters
#2520SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Zasz
Originally Posted by Thanahtos View Post
No offense, but the reason you're in the raid as affliction, is to be in the tank group to give Improved Imp... I'm sorta confused.

There's something called "Raid Utility" and affliction is a "Raid Utility" spec, if you want pure personal DPS, you'd be destruction.
I know about the imp but I dont have any points in demonoly, just normal imp. Besides, which tank does need an imp if a guild has BT on farm? And for skilling destru, I dont like playing like a mage. I enjoy being affliction with skilled malediction even if it means being behind the other locks.
#2521SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Thanahtos
Originally Posted by Zasz View Post
I know about the imp but I dont have any points in demonoly, just normal imp. Besides, which tank does need an imp if a guild has BT on farm? And for skilling destru, I dont like playing like a mage. I enjoy being affliction with skilled malediction even if it means being behind the other locks.
Well even with BT on farm, I assume you still have progression in Sunwell that you are going to have to deal with spike damage deaths of tanks (e.g., Brutallus, a 20k Stomp, MH, OH, reduced by 5% is quite nice, plus the 85 (or is it 86? I forgot if it's rounded up or down) stamina you'd give to the tanks if you specced entirely into Improved Imp).

But if you're not going to spec into Shadow's Embrace 5/5, Malediction 3/3, and Improved Imp 2-3/3 you're a wasted space in a raid. Affliction will always perform below a properly played Destruction Warlock with equal gear. Even at my level of progression (which is below yours), this holds true.

Also a shaman only benefits you with his Wrath of Air totem, and his Bloodlust/Heroism is largely lost on Affliction (with the high emphasis on DoTs that it has), while a Destruction Warlock gains a 30% (approximately, if no life tapping is needed of course) direct DPS increase along with Wrath of Air.
#2522SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by Zasz View Post
I know about the imp but I dont have any points in demonoly, just normal imp. Besides, which tank does need an imp if a guild has BT on farm? And for skilling destru, I dont like playing like a mage. I enjoy being affliction with skilled malediction even if it means being behind the other locks.
"I choose to be affliction, foregoing personal dps in order to provide benefits to other people" and "how can I argue for a spot in the dps group" are kind of mutual exclusive. Affliction simply doesn't scale well, and your raid leader is making the most sane choice.

You don't benefit much from crit, or hit. And while you do benefit from extra spellpower and heroism-haste, destro locks simply gain more from it.


If you insist on wanting your question answered instead of us having to explain why it is a bad question, then here is your answer:

Q: how do I convince my raid leader to put me in the dps group?
A: I suggest bribery, blackmail, or learning how to play a drum.
#2523SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Seems we double posted. We make the same points, except I feel I must correct you here:

Originally Posted by Thanahtos View Post
Also a shaman only benefits you with his Wrath of Air totem, and his Bloodlust/Heroism is largely lost on Affliction (with the high emphasis on DoTs that it has), while a Destruction Warlock gains a 30% (approximately, if no life tapping is needed of course) direct DPS increase along with Wrath of Air.
Life Tap is _also_ sped up by Bloodlust/Heroism. It does not matter. The reason affliction gains less from it is that it reduces their dots-to-SB ratio.
#2524SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Symplex
It comes with the job of being the affliction lock, you're helping by providing that health buffer, the extra dps(cos/coe) and the 5% reduced physical, if you dont like being tossed into the most logical group then respec? The whole point of being affliction in a raiding environment is to be the "raid-buffer" not topping meters.
#2525SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Thanahtos
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Seems we double posted. We make the same points, except I feel I must correct you here:



Life Tap is _also_ sped up by Bloodlust/Heroism. It does not matter. The reason affliction gains less from it is that it reduces their dots-to-SB ratio.
I stand corrected. /bow
#2526SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
CHaoTiCTeX
removed

Last edited by CHaoTiCTeX : 04/18/08 at 11:25 AM. Reason: double posted a point
#2527SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Beardyhead
Originally Posted by Zasz View Post
I know about the imp but I dont have any points in demonoly, just normal imp. Besides, which tank does need an imp if a guild has BT on farm? And for skilling destru, I dont like playing like a mage. I enjoy being affliction with skilled malediction even if it means being behind the other locks.
Not sure if you have other pieces of gear to bring you to hitcap, but perhaps you can try Affliction/Ruin. Either 40/0/21 or 38/2/21.

We keep our Aff/Ruin lock in DPS groups when farming BT. We trade the stamina gain, take the SE/Malediction, and ride it into SW.
#2528SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Eradorn
I am curious as to the last few posts about Aff locks. Many of the better Aff Lock Specs don't have improved imp, particularly the 40/0/21, yet you seem to make it sound as though somehow Imp Imp is manditory for Aff.
#2529SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Sumie
Improved imp isn't really necessary imo. It's an extra 21 stam for the tank. But it's not the talent that makes affliction locks valuable, but rather the simple fact that they actually keep their imp out, as opposed to destruction locks.

I recently respecced to 40/0/21, after being 44/0/17 for the longest time, and the former definitely outperforms the latter once you're in T6 level gear. Just toss a corruption and start shadowbolting. I only cast Siphon Life when a) on the move, b) the encounter has a lot of raid damage, or c) the boss hits hard enough where I don't want to risk 5/5 SE falling off. Affl/Ruin may not top the charts like Destro, but it still does respectable damage, while still being able to get 5/5 SE and Malediction.
#2530SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
With my sample entry-T6 gear level I get SL 2172 damage per cast time with shadowbolt 1320 damage per cast time, using ruin spec on the spreadsheet. I really doubt having any realistic level of gear closes that gap.

Even putting 1700 spell damage and 40% crit and 25% haste and 4pcT6 bonus still only brings shadowbolt to be ~60 damage per cast time under siphon life.

Therefore I don't see any real reason to take SL out of your rotation at any gear level. Well except if you're so threat capped that the slight extra healing aggro is an issue (not realistic).

Immolate required me to lower my crit to 37% and haste to 20% (keeping 1700 spell damage and 1628 fire damage) before it became a tiny bit above shadowbolt. So immolate is generally worth casting as well for any gear level if you're affliction.

The only reason to not cast those would be debuff slots, but if you seriously have debuff slot issues you should check what other debuffs can be removed as well, and compare the DPS you lose from giving up that debuff slot to the DPS the other debuff is benefiting whoever is putting it up.
#2531SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Zasz
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
With my sample entry-T6 gear level I get SL 2172 damage per cast time with shadowbolt 1320 damage per cast time, using ruin spec on the spreadsheet. I really doubt having any realistic level of gear closes that gap.

Even putting 1700 spell damage and 40% crit and 25% haste and 4pcT6 bonus still only brings shadowbolt to be ~60 damage per cast time under siphon life.

Therefore I don't see any real reason to take SL out of your rotation at any gear level. Well except if you're so threat capped that the slight extra healing aggro is an issue (not realistic).

Immolate required me to lower my crit to 37% and haste to 20% (keeping 1700 spell damage and 1628 fire damage) before it became a tiny bit above shadowbolt. So immolate is generally worth casting as well for any gear level if you're affliction.

The only reason to not cast those would be debuff slots, but if you seriously have debuff slot issues you should check what other debuffs can be removed as well, and compare the DPS you lose from giving up that debuff slot to the DPS the other debuff is benefiting whoever is putting it up.
Whats your WLs name? I´m curious how you equiped him to get such high spelldamage and crit.
#2532SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
I didn't actually equip it, I said IF I changed the spell damage crit and haste to be that high those would be the results, and I doubt anyone actually has such numbers which means SL and immo should be worth casting for all affliction warlocks. Note that with the actual gear I input (T6 entry level more or less) SL is very very worth casting, just used the much higher stats that probably nobody has to show that even with those stats you should cast immolate and SL.
#2533SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1rochan
With my gear, Immolate has a higher damage per cast time but yield lower dps for me. Perhaps because it is more mana intensive - I have to lifetap more often if I use it. Might not bother with siphon life if have too many debuffs - only a 20 dps loss for me.
#2534SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
Yeah you're right at the end you should look at the DPS difference triggering it on and off due to mana reasons, but even a 20 DPS gain is a DPS gain, and if someone is using that debuff slot for less than 20 DPS you should have priority on it rather than try to clear it. Remember people try do gem swaps that give less than 1 DPS just to do their best, no reason to automatically give up 20 dps just becuase something important got pushed off, unless there's no less important debuff that can be removed instead.
#2535SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Thanahtos
Originally Posted by Eradorn View Post
I am curious as to the last few posts about Aff locks. Many of the better Aff Lock Specs don't have improved imp, particularly the 40/0/21, yet you seem to make it sound as though somehow Imp Imp is manditory for Aff.
While it's not mandatory per-say, if you're going to spec affliction anyways, why not get Improved Imp? Remember that you're not there for pure personal DPS, you're in a raid for "raid utility".

Last edited by Thanahtos : 04/18/08 at 6:37 PM. Reason: Typo
#2536SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Zasz
If an affliction wl wants to compete with destrus he has to use everything he got. I personally use a fixed rotation UI -> cor -> Imm -> SL -> SB spam. This way I can recast the first 3 all at once loosing nearly no tick, just the SL needs to be set up when its ticked out. Unfortunately for me I´m always on CoS duty so no CoP. As for destrus, I think its not worth using corr/Imm when you reached a certain DPS.

The other problem in our raid is, I cant go full dmg sometimes in fights like EoS, bloodboil or sometimes archi (depends if I have to run much) because our tanks cant keep up. If I have full support like elemental, shadow priest (in raid), drums, destrupot, trinkets and so on, I would be more dead than fighting.

Other than that I´m happy to be affliction in fights like EoS because I dont kill myself if I get some good crits like our destrus :P Or supremus in the spank phase because I can do dmg while running after him. Destrus do an nearly instant dps stop once they have to run, I dont. My dps drops abit but doesnt stop.

As for calculating each dps, guess I´m too stupid for that. I just work up my spelldmg and watch my timers.

Just my POV.
#2537SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Trickykid
Originally Posted by Thanahtos View Post
While it's not mandatory per-say, if you're going to spec affliction anyways, why not get Improved Imp? Remember that you're not there for pure personal DPS, you're in a raid for "raid utility".
You are in the raid for Utility but you're still able to do DPS and as such should be trying to maximize it. Having an imp and SE is already the utility piece, after that you decide if being able to do more DPS from 3 talent points is worth the incremental stamina for the tanks.
#2538SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
galzohar
Originally Posted by Thanahtos View Post
While it's not mandatory per-say, if you're going to spec affliction anyways, why not get Improved Imp? Remember that you're not there for pure personal DPS, you're in a raid for "raid utility".
While sacrificing personal DPS for raid utility is nice and all, you have to keep things in prespective. The #1 reason to spec affliction is to have shadow embrace, since once you placed 25 points in affliction for it, filling up affliction up to UA (or malediction and ruin if that provides better dps for your gear) will provide the most raid DPS.

This leaves you 2 points for non-DPS talents. The most considerable options for those are:
1. Intensity - probably the best choice for DPS, at least on more than 1 or 2 fights. However its actual value goes from nothing to a lot depending on what fight you're talking about.
2. Dark pact. Quite the same mana per global cooldown as life tap, but doesn't require someone to heal you.
3. CoEx - probably useless if you're not doing vashj anymore unless I'm missing the maybe-1-more-fight-where-it's-useable.
4. Improved healthstones - highly NOT recommended due to healthstone coordination, as destruction warlocks should cover the 2/2 and 1/2 healthstones leaving your job to be the 0/2 stone - they can't really put these points anyway in anything but pet-buffing talents for a pet that's getting sacrificed anyway...
5. Improved imp - While you can't keep your DPS and go 3/3, 2/3 is definitely an option.

All of these can be argued as viable choices, and it's not really possible to bring any hard evidence that'll prove otherwise in an undisputeable way.

However, the most reasonable choices are 2/2 intensity or 2/3 improved imp, and you'd have to choose wether 140 more HP for your tank is worth the pushback, based on what fight you're going to do. But at the end it's not a world of a difference due to it not being as important for affliction and even on fights where it does matter it's probably not that huge, and 140 extra HP on the tank isn't amazing either.

Bottom line is just becuase you're raid utility spec with shadow embrace doesn't mean you should discard all raid DPS talents. If you think 140 HP on the tank is more important than pushback protection then go for it, but don't do it becuase you don't care about your DPS, but rather because you considered the benefit VS the cost and decided that your raid is better off with 140 HP on the tank than whatever DPS is lost by the pushbacks you're going to take.

3/3 improved imp is not possible without some noticeable gimp to DPS - some kind of important DPS talent needs to be dropped and I really can't think of a fight where it would be worthwhile to pay that cost to get 3/3 improved imp. Again remember that while affliction is utility, it's still supposed to do DPS while doing that utility. Giving up 70-210 HP to increase your DPS in a noticeable way is quite acceptable, as you're still providing the primary raid benefits of shadow embrace (and non-improved imp) affliction is meant to provide.

Originally Posted by Zasz View Post
... Unfortunately for me I´m always on CoS duty so no CoP.
...
Obviously as an affliction warlock you'll always be on CoS duty. Your CoS is better than everyone's else and there is absolutely no reason to ever bring more than 1 affliction warlock (except for having skill+attendance+gear+respec cost issues all at the same time). While affliction at high gear levels is still not worth speccing into just for malediction (it's actually a total raid DPS loss at the higher gear levels even if it's lower than 4/5 T6), since, as I said, the best way to DPS while providing shadow embrace is to spec affliction, there isn't really a reason not to grab that talent and use it.

It's not like other warlocks get to use damage curses unless you run with more than 3 warlocks and/or less than 2 fire mages.

Last edited by galzohar : 04/18/08 at 7:15 PM.
#2539SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Zasz
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
It's not like other warlocks get to use damage curses unless you run with more than 3 warlocks and/or less than 2 fire mages.
Thats the thing that bothers me. I run CoS because I skilled it like the other affliction warlock and our destrus can sometimes use CoA. WTF?! Then ppl complain that I dont do enough dmg when I cant use the full arsenal of spells. I got used to do CoS now and I even removed the 2 points in Improved curse of agony to get 3 points in Contagation. But the main thought that destruction warlocks use damage curses and affliction dont sounds plain wrong to me.
#2540SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by Zasz View Post
Thats the thing that bothers me. I run CoS because I skilled it like the other affliction warlock and our destrus can sometimes use CoA. WTF?! Then ppl complain that I dont do enough dmg when I cant use the full arsenal of spells. I got used to do CoS now and I even removed the 2 points in Improved curse of agony to get 3 points in Contagation. But the main thought that destruction warlocks use damage curses and affliction dont sounds plain wrong to me.
If people complain that you're below other warlocks when you're affliction, they're pretty clueless. You're the raid support build, while destro is the sacrifice-everything-for-dps build. If you were equaling their damage, why bring them?

Also you should bear in mind that destro has an incredibly good CoD. No well equipped destro warlock should use CoA over it, unless the target won't live 60 seconds, or there is a threat wipe. Curse of Doom isn't affected by Shadow Mastery but Demonic Sacrifice does affect it.

Let me clarify just how good CoS is. Assuming there is 5000 shadow dps, CoS is equivalent to the following:
"Target takes 500 damage per second for 5 minutes". Good luck beating that with any other curse.



Malediction CoS vs imp CoA:

For Malediction CoS + destro CoD to be outperformed by affliction CoA and destro CoS in a 5000 shadow dps scenario, you'd have to beat the 180dps that Malediction gives + the 10-12k damage per minute for the destro's CoD + the extra shadow bolt that you lose because of CoA refreshes.

Rough overview:

Damage per minute: scenario 1: 13% CoS + CoD
13% CoS adds 680dps or 40800 per minute. CoD adds about 11200 per minute or 52000 damage total
Lost cast time per minute: 1.5s due to CoD

Damage per minute: scenario 2: 10% CoS + affliction CoA
10% CoS adds 500 dps or 30000 per minute.
Affliction lock gets 2.5x CoA in.
lost cast time: 3.75s (difference is about a shadow bolt, considering CoA is more expensive than CoD, let's assume 3000 damage)

Roughly speaking, your CoA needs to hit for 10 000 in total. (40800 + 11200 + 3000 - 30000) / 2.5 for it to be equal.

This is actually a bit closer than I expected it to be.
#2541SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
In other words, you can't expect your raid to have 10% CoS instead of 13% CoS just because you want to get more personal DPS, even though your amped CoD is probably better than a non-amped one - it's just not enough to make up for the weaker CoS which will cause all shadow users in your raid to lose damage.

As for the other affliction warlock, not only you shouldn't have brought a 2nd affliction warlock in the firstplace (have him spec destruction so he can do some actual DPS or bring a better DPSer in his place), if you're alreayd bringing him he should be on CoE duty, and a destruction warlock on CoR. If you see warlocks regularly using damage curses you're probably not running with CoS+CoR+CoE which is a serious lack of organization from your raid leaders. CoR always wins on the damage curses (have a tank or dps warrior spec 5/5 improved demo shout to negate its attack power effect) and CoE wins in most raid setups.

Anyway if personal DPS is what you're looking for, you picked wrong spec (and/or wrong game...).
#2542SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1dakalro
At this point ig the game with decent ele/shadow dps-ers, CoS/CoE is better than damage curse even with just 1 of that damage type.
#2543SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Smurrf
Originally Posted by Thanahtos View Post
While it's not mandatory per-say, if you're going to spec affliction anyways, why not get Improved Imp? Remember that you're not there for pure personal DPS, you're in a raid for "raid utility".
For me, it's solely due to the lack of talent points available.

I have a 44/0/17 spec, that gives me the absolute most in threat reduction talents possible from the destruction tree. I guarantee, if I didn't have Destructive Reach, I would be dead on the floor about half the fights out there. My threat as an affliction lock is usually right up there behind whoever's doing the tanking, especially on longer fights. Certain ones, obviously, there's no issue on...but others? I'm doing soulshatter twice if the fight's long enough...the bonus reduction in threat provided from Dest Reach is just absolutely necessary for me.

As far as the affliction tree goes...the only point that I can find that I would be able to free up to put into the imp is the point in Curse of Exhaustion...and since we're just starting Vashj, that's not necessarily an option at the moment. Every other point is in something that boosts the damage I cause, or helps the raid in some way. (And before you mention it, yes, I have points in CoA...because I solo as well, and hate respeccing. Not only that, but those two points are going to get spent somewhere in the first three tiers anyway, due to how the affliction tree is set up.) I can't even find pts to put into IHoT like I usually like to have. Although, as soon as we move out of SSC, that pt in CoEx is going straight into Devastation for that last pt of crit chance for SB.

As far as the imp goes, untalented he provides 70 stam, which gets boosted by all the various raid buffs the tanks have. An additional 21 stam (well, more like 26-27 or so, with raid buffs) would be nice, but it's not worth the loss of anything else I have currently, and is only a nice buffer at this point.

To answer the question of 'you're not there for personal DPS'...that has always read to me like 'you can't do maximum DPS like your brethren can, so you might as well lop off a leg and both arms, and just stand there. Don't die, just...be there, and stay out of the way.' Screw that. I might not be able to top the meters, but on most boss fights, I'm still hitting around 1050-1100 dps, and usually end up in the top 7 or so on the list of damage done at the end of the night...and in about half the boss fights, I'm in the top 3-4 for both DPS & damage done. Am I really supposed to nerf myself for an additional 2-300 hp for 4 other people?
#2544SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
Your spec has shadowburn which is a lot less useful than 1% extra crit, and as already said 70 more HP on the tank may be more useful than dark pact considering dark pact will rarely give any DPS boost (you'd have to run oom at the same time as you're being low on HP and not getting healed). All in all as I said getting imp imp is very argueable, but at least that point in shadowburn is quite wasted.

Even if you don't have threat issues, maxing your range is quite important as far as my raiding experience can tell. Had countless times where my main spells that were talent-enhanced were in range and other spells weren't (so without the talent I'd have to move) and other times where I wished my spells had that extra yard on them.
#2545SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Smurrf
I'll say again:

...I solo as well, and hate respeccing.
I use Shadowburn quite extensively when farming...and while it may not be a big DPS boost in a raid, if the mob is about to go down in less time than it takes to shoot off a Shadow Bolt, yes I will sometimes hit it with Shadowburn. Could I be better served in a raid setting with 1% extra crit? Sure. Am I better served by taking it over Shadowburn in an overall raid/solo/5man spec? Your mileage may vary...but to me, with as much as I use it, no.

Dark Pact is, once again, extremely useful while soloing...and I'll use DP in place of a mana pot at the beginning of a long fight, so that healers can concentrate their attention elsewhere. When your MT is hitting around 20k HP, an extra 300 (at most) HP isn't going to really make that much of a difference, and to me, is not worth those talent points.

Like I said, once we get done with Vashj, CoEx is going right back into Devastation anyway...until then, I'm happy with what I have.
#2546SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Stilfor
Is anyone else having serious threat issues now with all this haste? Being a LW in a mostly LW group I'm basically sitting at 290 haste at all times peaking at 465 haste (1600 shadow, 34% crit) and almost always threat capped. I think we're going to start seeing some huge threat issues as we progress further through Sunwell and our hastened threat scales faster than our tank's.

Edit: We generally have 2 MDs and I know our tanks don't suck. It's just started being a huge issue since 2.4 and I gained ~180 haste between gear and drums.

Last edited by Stilfor : 04/19/08 at 12:32 PM.
#2547SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1rochan
If you're saying there are times where you just stand there and do nothing because you are threatcapped then something is wrong. TA for first 30 secs of each fight makes it virtually impossible to pull agro. Of the first 3 bosses, the only one I regularly soulshatter on is Felmyst.
#2548SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Exilersess
TA? whats that? I too have alot of threat issues on a decent amount of fights in bt/za(timed events)/and hyjal. Our guild is working on the 1st boss in sunwell, and I havn't really had threat issues there since you have 2 different targets to dps back and forth on.
#2549SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1 Caffeine
Tranquil Air Totem

Rochan, and to other Warlocks on Brutallus, do you really never run into threat issues? I tend to wait to start dps for an awful long time, about 20 to 25 seconds or 25k-30k tank threat. It's usually ok, but sometimes it isn't. Seems like a lot of wasted dps from waiting as well.
#2550SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1PSGarak
Tranquil Air Totem. There's a critical point where the extra DPS time from TA totem outweighs the extra 100 damage from Wrath of Air totem, and that critical point is not very far past the threat cieling. If you can reach that threat cieling without the 100 spell damage, then you are better off with the 20% agro reduction. Although, as Rochan points out, a smart shaman can swap from one to the other and let you ride that line exceedingly close.
#2551SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
It not only depends on your threat, the 100 damage affects the whole party so it's actually more complicated than that if you're the only one being threat capped. But yeah tranquil air and going all out is generally better than threat capping with WoA. If you just slow down 5% of your DPS you more or less negated the effect of the WoA anyway. If you slow down less than that (and the rest of your party is about the same as you) mixing totems is a good thing. Anything more complex and you'll have to evaluate it on a case-by-case basis, which is actually pretty complicated considering tank threat is very hard to predict especially from a tanks that don't play 100% perfect and can't tell you their expected TPS output.

Anyway if you just ask people who else is having threat issues, you'll find very varying responses. Some pull aggro with 1000 DPS and some never pull aggro with 2000 DPS. It really depends on your tank (skill>gear choices>gear level, but all of those matter).
#2552SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Nas
Originally Posted by Caffeine View Post
Tranquil Air Totem

Rochan, and to other Warlocks on Brutallus, do you really never run into threat issues? I tend to wait to start dps for an awful long time, about 20 to 25 seconds or 25k-30k tank threat. It's usually ok, but sometimes it isn't. Seems like a lot of wasted dps from waiting as well.
I do tend to run into threat issues early on in the fight, till about the third taunt, after that point I can pretty much go all out without having to worry about threat due to tanks utilizing my high threat by riding it using taunt and staying well above the rest.

For the first minute or so, however, we have our Elemental Shaman drop tranquil air totem in a group with three Warlocks to maximize our DPS during that period of time, the moment MT1 taunts Brutallus back to him Wrath of Air is dropped and there is no need to worry about threat at all past that point.
#2553SourcePosted on<=2.0.0CHaoTiCTeX
I have a quick question, does anyone know the proc rate / ppm of the Tier 4 2 piece bonus?
#2554SourcePosted on<=2.0.0galzohar
Originally Posted by Nas View Post
after that point I can pretty much go all out without having to worry about threat due to tanks utilizing my high threat by riding it using taunt and staying well above the rest.
This actually doesn't work. Taunt gives you as much threat as the person with current aggro has, not the highest person on threat. If it did do what you claim it does, on any fight (and trash mob) where the boss is not immune to taunt you could go all out and just have the tank generate threat using nothing but taunt never losing aggro due to the 110%/130% rule.
#2555SourcePosted on<=2.0.0jendead
I have a question about using Infernal on Brutallus (I saw it mentioned earlier in the thread). My raid leaders are wary of letting me do this because they're worried it's going to break early and wreak havoc. The tooltip claims that the initial enslave is for 5 minutes - is there ANY possible chance of not having the full duration when you summon it?
#2556SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by jendead View Post
I have a question about using Infernal on Brutallus (I saw it mentioned earlier in the thread). My raid leaders are wary of letting me do this because they're worried it's going to break early and wreak havoc. The tooltip claims that the initial enslave is for 5 minutes - is there ANY possible chance of not having the full duration when you summon it?
I have never seen it break before 5 minutes. Pretty sure it isn't possible.
#2557SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by jendead View Post
I have a question about using Infernal on Brutallus (I saw it mentioned earlier in the thread). My raid leaders are wary of letting me do this because they're worried it's going to break early and wreak havoc. The tooltip claims that the initial enslave is for 5 minutes - is there ANY possible chance of not having the full duration when you summon it?
I think the initial infernal you summon stays with you for the full duration of 5 minutes. I think you can even tell the enslave length by checking the buff timer (or this may be some addon I have).
#2558SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Fafhrd
Originally Posted by barlaniel View Post
My guild is currently on brutallus and i have a couple of questions about my own dps.
Fully raid buffed i have 1530 shadow dmg 30%crit (talents inc) hit cap and no spell haste gear.
Now heres what i need to know currently i seem to be capped at around 2000 dps.

...
The dps difference you see often depends on a few things:

- have Shadowpriest? +100 dps
- have Wrath of air totem? +100 dps
- Bloodlust? +60 dps
- Drums of Battle? +25 dps/drum
- Moonkin aura? +100 dps
- using Spellstrike Pants even though you aren't a tailor? -150 dps (checked your armory)
#2559SourcePosted on<=2.0.0 Eph
Originally Posted by jendead View Post
I have a question about using Infernal on Brutallus (I saw it mentioned earlier in the thread). My raid leaders are wary of letting me do this because they're worried it's going to break early and wreak havoc. The tooltip claims that the initial enslave is for 5 minutes - is there ANY possible chance of not having the full duration when you summon it?
I know you didn't ask it, but just as a general tip for anyone who hasn't found this out the hard way yet -- don't use the Infernal on Kalecgos unless you know you will not be ported. It'll break enslave and start attacking your raid. As far as I can recall thats the only fight to worry about using him.
#2560SourcePosted on<=2.0.0jendead
Originally Posted by Eph View Post
I know you didn't ask it, but just as a general tip for anyone who hasn't found this out the hard way yet -- don't use the Infernal on Kalecgos unless you know you will not be ported. It'll break enslave and start attacking your raid. As far as I can recall thats the only fight to worry about using him.
Haha, I didn't think about that on Kalec. The poor Infernal is a pet I've pretty much forgotten about since level 55. I'm glad to see it has at least some (limited) use.
#2561SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Akj
Originally Posted by Eph View Post
I know you didn't ask it, but just as a general tip for anyone who hasn't found this out the hard way yet -- don't use the Infernal on Kalecgos unless you know you will not be ported. It'll break enslave and start attacking your raid. As far as I can recall thats the only fight to worry about using him.
Archimonde could be another, I'd guess that an infernal will break enslave or despawn during an airburst. We have used one on the rest of the Hyjal fights & Supremus without any issues though.
#2562SourcePosted on<=2.0.0BugRoger
I can confirm that an airburst on Archimonde breaks the enslave. The infernal starts to attack the raid... Just found that out 1h ago :p
#2563SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Ammanas
Regarding threat on Brutallus, we have our feral tank start off tanking him and blow a BL in his group right off the start. It helps a lot with threat in the beginning (especially since we usually have a hunter in the group too MDing).
#2564SourcePosted on<=2.0.0galzohar
Originally Posted by Ammanas View Post
Regarding threat on Brutallus, we have our feral tank start off tanking him and blow a BL in his group right off the start. It helps a lot with threat in the beginning (especially since we usually have a hunter in the group too MDing).
Helps with threat yeah, but at a major DPS cost, so consider carefully before you decide to BL tanks.
#2565SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Ammanas
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Helps with threat yeah, but at a major DPS cost, so consider carefully before you decide to BL tanks.
It was worth it for us, the extra DPS time that the warlocks/mages got was well worth using a BL in the tank group. We still had 4 other BLs available since we were running 4 resto/1 enh shaman. It also wasn't a completely wasted bloodlust since our tank group did have two hunters in it (feral/prot warr/resto sham GoA/2x hunter).
#2566SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Nas
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
This actually doesn't work. Taunt gives you as much threat as the person with current aggro has, not the highest person on threat. If it did do what you claim it does, on any fight (and trash mob) where the boss is not immune to taunt you could go all out and just have the tank generate threat using nothing but taunt never losing aggro due to the 110%/130% rule.
After doing some research on this I have to say that I was mistaken - taunt does not permanently shift a tank's position on threat if the taunted mob was already attacking the tank, all it does is ensure that the mob will not attack anyone else within those 6 seconds that the debuff is up for, as a result buying time for DPS that is high on threat to shed some of it through class specific abilities. I suppose on Brutallus, prior to the first taunt by MT2, TPS is usually below normal due to the necessity of applying certain debuffs (should there only be one warrior, one of the tanks, present) such as TC and SA, that and TPS prior to having 5 sunders up would naturally be lower. After the first taunt the tanks start using their usual TPS cycle with all the debuffs up on the boss, which is usually enough to hold aggro throughout the fight.

As such, what I usually do on Brutallus, I start off by going all out, odds are I'll be close to pulling aggro within the first 10% of the boss's health due to the aforementioned reasons, at which point I shatter just to buy the tanks more time to settle into their optimal TPS rotation with all debuffs up - from that point onwards I simply go all out without the fear of pulling aggro, and that has worked for me over the past two kills.
#2567SourcePosted on<=2.0.0SRneo
Hai Guys,

I know this is way off topic and sorry for it, (I'm a lower tiered guy, what can i say lol.) Anyways, I was hoping to get a couple of you guys to check out my armory. I've followed the Leuliar DPS spreadsheet and have gotten everything I could get my hands on that was an upgrade. I was just wondering if you guys had any input on whether I should change some of the gear and/or gems. We're 5/6 SSC and havent really touched TK except for VR. So keep that in mind when you tell me what I need to get and stuff.

Thanks!
#2568SourcePosted on<=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*<=2.0.0
Lokag
Originally Posted by SRneo View Post
Hai Guys,

I know this is way off topic and sorry for it, (I'm a lower tiered guy, what can i say lol.) Anyways, I was hoping to get a couple of you guys to check out my armory. I've followed the Leuliar DPS spreadsheet and have gotten everything I could get my hands on that was an upgrade. I was just wondering if you guys had any input on whether I should change some of the gear and/or gems. We're 5/6 SSC and havent really touched TK except for VR. So keep that in mind when you tell me what I need to get and stuff.

Thanks!
Well first of, you NEED to get hit capped, you're 22 below it so you're already fighting an uphill battle.

You've made two 'bad' (YMMV) choices for the hands and robes. The robes are one of these "OMG 50 crit and 60 damage!!!" items which really aren't as good as they look. You should have just gotten the Scarlet robes from heroic MgT and gemmed for hit. Otherwise you could have taken the +hit robes from the badge endor. Studious wraps would have done much the same as your current gloves for a drop of maybe 3 or 4 dps but saving 15 badges for an epic gem or something else later on. If you're just 5/6 SSC and 1/4 TK focus on just getting hit, damage and crit up, leave haste for T6 content.

Though I have to admit I'm just as guilty to be just short on hit (by 2 and it's getting fixed this week) and having haste a bit too early (we've just done Kael and I was capernian tank so respecced to fire destro to avoid nether protection procs so have the ZA necklace instead of the KZ one)

Otherwise IMO it looks fine. You're fire destruction so I assume you have other shadow destruction warlocks?

Last edited by Lokag : Today at 4:21 AM.
#2569SourcePosted on<=2.0.0sarf
Originally Posted by SRneo View Post
<request for recommendations>
In order to make up for your hit deficit, you either need to do some item swapping or you can do some gemswapping (just make another pair of pants) - using veiled noble topazes in your pants, you'll lose 12 spelldamage and gain 12 hit, or you can swap out your wand for [Carved Witch Doctor's Stick] (gemmed with VNT). You could also trade your offhand for a [Jewel of Infinite Possibilities] (requires good luck in Kara though).

That said, one of your best long-term investments will probably be swapping your robe for [Shroud of the Lore`nial] until you gain enough hit rating to not need it anymore (I know - it hurts getting those badges again, but it will give you more options).

However, if you want a more bite-sized route, I'd say that by making new [Spellstrike Pants] (VNT gemmed) & [Carved Witch Doctor's Stick] (VNT gem) route you will have a decent amount of options as you gear your way upwards - this may be influenced by me having an Alchemist, though.
#2570SourcePosted on<=2.0.0ninielin
you guys are going way too far just to be hit capped.... The 22 hit he is missing ( or the 2 hit of the poster above lol) won't change his dps. I only started getting hit capped once we killed illidan and that never stopped me from beeing 1 on the DM all the way from gruul to kalec. hovered between 170 and 190 hit. Its the cheapest stat as far as dps goes but thats about it.
#2571SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Madlax
I have to agree there. Hit is simply the cheapest stat, but that makes it highly desirable.
Whether you take 12hit rating, 15spellhaste or ~22damage(or a whooping 28 crit as fire destro) doesn´t particularly matter for the DPS sustained.

On a 2nd note, I found Infernal - WWS and the Infernal damage looked really interesting, even when pulling ~800k on Brutallus that would be a fair trade off.
Anyone can verify if those WWS are accurare for a single Infernal?
#2572SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Roywyn
Originally Posted by Madlax View Post
I have to agree there. Hit is simply the cheapest stat, but that makes it highly desirable.
Whether you take 12hit rating, 15spellhaste or ~22damage(or a whooping 28 crit as fire destro) doesn´t particularly matter for the DPS sustained.

On a 2nd note, I found Infernal - WWS and the Infernal damage looked really interesting, even when pulling ~800k on Brutallus that would be a fair trade off.
Anyone can verify if those WWS are accurare for a single Infernal?
That's 4 infernals in that log. If you browse it, you see 4 casts of enslave demon at the start.
If you check the Immolation - Spells - World of Warcraft timing, you see that it's 4 infernals (2 and 2 ticking at the same time stamps).

Makes 55k damage per Infernal.
#2573SourcePosted on<=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*<=2.0.0
Madlax
Originally Posted by Roywyn View Post
That's 4 infernals in that log. If you browse it, you see 4 casts of enslave demon at the start.
If you check the Immolation - Spells - World of Warcraft timing, you see that it's 4 infernals (2 and 2 ticking at the same time stamps).

Makes 55k damage per Infernal.
Hm, kinda pointless to use one then unless as affliction debuffer.
#Edit for the post-poster:
My bad, the last time I summoned an infernal for purposes must have been 100 days played ago.

Last edited by Madlax : Today at 10:00 AM.
#2574SourcePosted on<=2.0.0dakalro
No, it makes it 55k damage on a 2 sec cast, that's high enough dpct to make it worth using. It does not remove Demonic Sacrifice.
#2575SourcePosted on<=2.0.0galzohar
No reason not to gem for hit if you're not hit capped. Granted trading 20 spell damage for the missing 20 hit rating won't do anywhere near from turning you from a nub into a DPS machine, but it's a step in the right direction. To do good DPS you'll obviously also have to take a serious look at how you're actually playing, how much time you're wasting not attacking or lifetapping at bad times etc (with a major stress on the time spent not attacking as that's the #1 thing that causes people to do low dps).

Note that if you're only 2 hit rating short, while getting those 2 hit rating can be a good thing, if it costs you 4 spell damage (for example by swapping a 9 damage gem to a 5 dmg 4 hit gem) it's just not worth it, and costs 50g on top. Hit is better per itemization point, as much as it's not far from twice as good, but it's not twice as good so 2 dmg > 1 hit no matter what hit rating you have.
#2576SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Deathwing
Yeah, I gotta agree with the latter sentiments. The two hit-cap nuts are giving terrible advice. For my dps setup, Shroud of Lore'nial will give only 3 dps more than Tormented Demonsoul Robes. That is NEVER worth 100 badges. I'd rather trade them for vortexes and sell for gold. Being hitcapped is nice, but only if it's more realistic dps. We aren't tanks were hitting has a very important secondary characteristic. Or like feral cats where missing that mangle might mess up your rotation because you weren't expecting. Miss a shadowbolt? So what?
#2577SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1dakalro
Then think about it this way, 1% under hitcap is doubling your chance for your spells to be resisted. Each % under hitcap increases the chance for your spells to be resisted by 100%.
#2578SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by Deathwing View Post
Yeah, I gotta agree with the latter sentiments. The two hit-cap nuts are giving terrible advice. For my dps setup, Shroud of Lore'nial will give only 3 dps more than Tormented Demonsoul Robes. That is NEVER worth 100 badges. I'd rather trade them for vortexes and sell for gold. Being hitcapped is nice, but only if it's more realistic dps. We aren't tanks were hitting has a very important secondary characteristic. Or like feral cats where missing that mangle might mess up your rotation because you weren't expecting. Miss a shadowbolt? So what?
Not only that, hit is useless on anything that's not a boss.

Typically you gem for hit since you're effectively trading on a one-for-one basis there, and you more or less pick gems so you're as close to cap as possible without overshooting it. In that scenario, hit is the best choice.

But I really wouldn't advocate making heavy sacrifices for hit elsewhere. In fact, I myself am very much hit capped at the moment and would kill for some good items that didn't have hit all over them.
#2579SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Dancing Wu Li Master
Originally Posted by sarf View Post
However, if you want a more bite-sized route, I'd say that by making new [Spellstrike Pants] (VNT gemmed) & [Carved Witch Doctor's Stick] (VNT gem) route you will have a decent amount of options as you gear your way upwards - this may be influenced by me having an Alchemist, though.
Make new pants? You'd end up with the pants + threat cost, plus the cost of the gems. Compare that to regemming, which would cost only the price of the gems (double if you eventually regem back to what you have now). There is no way that's an economical solution.
#2580SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1SRneo
So after reading all the posts after mine, I assume the Leuliar Spreadsheet is not the way to go to determine what's best for my dps? I've done all the combinations with badge/crafted/raid drops and the gear I have now minus the T5 shoulders (All yellow sockets being Reckless Pyrestone lol) provided me with the highest number. Should I throw all that DPS spreadsheet junk out and just focus on hit cap and dmg?

BTW, I'm shadow destruction and yes, it told me the Subjugation Neck and Fetish were the best neck and OH I could have atm.
#2581SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
Originally Posted by dakalro View Post
Then think about it this way, 1% under hitcap is doubling your chance for your spells to be resisted. Each % under hitcap increases the chance for your spells to be resisted by 100%.
That's a pretty horrible way to look at it. 98% damage is exactly 1/99 DPS loss (~1.01%). There's nothing double about it (that actually means something). Getting that 1% hit will cost ~12.5 hit rating, which will increase DPS by a little more than what 20 spell damage would. So while there's a point (around 1.7:1) where it's better to take the damage over the hit, but most item comparisons you'll make when not hit capped will tell you to take the hit item if the items are similar level. Obviously don't do something silly like trading >1.8 damage per 1 hit rating just to get hit cap as you'll only lose DPS, but trading even 1.5 spell damage for 1 hit rating is a good deal assuming that's the best deal you can get.

Of course if you have the choice wether to lose 20 spell damage to get 15 hit rating from 1 item (for example, glove enchant), it's worse than switching a 9 damage gem to a 8 hit gem, and both are worse than swapping 2 9 damage gems to 2 5dmg/4hit gems. Eventually all these options will up your DPS, but if the better ones already cap your hit you should take them. If they don't cap you, you should take everything (that's not losing ~1.7-1.8 or more spell damage per hit rating gain) that gives hit.

As for boss VS trash, if you care so much about trash DPS get a 2nd gearset where possible, but don't let it gimp your boss DPS if you care at all about progression. How many time did your progression stop because you cleared trash 1% slower? How many times did you wipe with the boss at 1%, stopping your progression (and farming for that matter)? Not to mention on trash a very significant portion of the time is spent walking around, organizing the pulls and simply switching targets (you'll be amazed at how much time you spend not casting between target switches if you weren't aware of the enourmous amount of time wasted on that beforehand) - better DPS doesn't speed that portion up which means 1% DPS increase on trash is far less than 1% trash clearing speed increase, while 1% more DPS on the boss is almost 1% faster boss killing and less chance for wipes.

In other words, if you can get alternate gear for trash then cool, otherwise just focus on boss gear as it's much more important.


For those who claim it's fine to run 20 hit rating short, while it won't turn you from a terrible to a great DPSer, there's pretty much no gear level in the whole game where it's worth it to be under the hit cap. Every gear level has options that allow you to cap your hit in a way that increases DPS - be it gems or actual items. I'm not talking about that "I only have 200 hit rating" as that obviously doesn't matter much (equipping a hit item in this case will probably cause a loss of at least 4 spell damage, which isn't worth it for only 2 hit rating), but when you're 20 hit rating short of the cap you did something wrong with your gearing.
#2582SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
Originally Posted by SRneo View Post
So after reading all the posts after mine, I assume the Leuliar Spreadsheet is not the way to go to determine what's best for my dps? I've done all the combinations with badge/crafted/raid drops and the gear I have now minus the T5 shoulders (All yellow sockets being Reckless Pyrestone lol) provided me with the highest number. Should I throw all that DPS spreadsheet junk out and just focus on hit cap and dmg?

BTW, I'm shadow destruction and yes, it told me the Subjugation Neck and Fetish were the best neck and OH I could have atm.
Remember spreadsheets can tell you how much DPS you'll do and how much DPS you'll gain by increasing stats, but they can't really tell you what items to wear. It's simply too complicated. But it doesn't mean you shouldn't use the spreadsheet to get what DPS you're going to do wearing different items.

For example it can tell you that hit is so great you should cap it, but it can't tell you if you should use 15 hit rating on gloves or a hit gem to cap your hit - while obviously the hit gem is better. Some things you just have to come up with yourself, but the leulier spreadsheet is very helpful at knowing what to look for and getting the final DPS you should expect to see in game if you actually play perfectly in perfect conditions (and it's not like reality conditions and bad play on your end are going to matter at what are the best items, more likely they'll just decrease your DPS no matter what you wear so the spreadsheet's item choices are still useful).
#2583SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Lacky
Well with all this talk about the spreadsheet I want to verify some geming. As a general rule what is the best gem when you are hit caped(take out socket bonuses).

+9 spell dmg
+5 spell dmg/+4 crit
+5 spell dmg/+4 haste
#2584SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Krazen
Originally Posted by Lacky View Post
Well with all this talk about the spreadsheet I want to verify some geming. As a general rule what is the best gem when you are hit caped(take out socket bonuses).

+9 spell dmg
+5 spell dmg/+4 crit
+5 spell dmg/+4 haste
+4 haste/+5 dmg is probably optimal, but good luck finding someone to cut those.
#2585SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1clavarnway
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
+4 haste/+5 dmg is probably optimal, but good luck finding someone to cut those.
Yeah, that cut doesn't exist just yet.


WoW Forums -> Follow up on a ticket / escalation process?

Pity...it's good.
#2586SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Eradorn
Immolate?

Several of the posters talking about the Aff locks said that they cast Immolate. The guide doesn't suggest this, and I would think that with Shadow Power, your cast time and mana would be better served casting another SB.

Yes, no, maybeso?
#2587SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Melbuframa
Originally Posted by Eradorn View Post
Several of the posters talking about the Aff locks said that they cast Immolate. The guide doesn't suggest this, and I would think that with Shadow Power, your cast time and mana would be better served casting another SB.

Yes, no, maybeso?
When I was Aff Leuliar's had it as a DPS increase, so I used it. Gear was the same as I have on now except I used FSW boots and Timbal’s instead of Icon
#2588SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Zargouhl
Spec for Leo-lock-tank

I have a scenario for you guys, then a couple questions.

I'm sitting on ~1230 spell dmg, hit capped. I'm the lock-tank on Leotheras(we haven't gotten to Vashj yet, but we're close), and I've been running a 7/44/10 spec, based on Felguard/utility.

Now my problem is I'd really like to get my dps higher. Even on the felguard spec I do pretty nice dps, but when we hit Vashj I was thinking a 0/40/21 spec would be better, thus crit will be become a larger focus for me.

I'm currently geared like an afflic lock so my question is, when I move to a ruin-based spec how do I compare spell dmg to crit on a point to point basis?
#2589SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
This is obviously about destruction, NOT affliction:
Since 1 haste is better than 1 spell damage for just about any gear setup, taking advantage of the "rounding error" of the 5 damage 4 haste gems is probably optimal when you can't use any more hit. Keep in mind, though, that if gemming enough 9 damage 4 hit gems allows you to take off a +hit item and wear a better item instead, you should consider that option as in some cases it's better than wearing a hit item and gemming for damage/haste.

Looking at Lacky's armory though doesn't show any item where the above would be applicable so 5dmg/4haste gems would be optimal in this case.
#2590SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Deathwing
Originally Posted by Zargouhl View Post
I have a scenario for you guys, then a couple questions.

I'm sitting on ~1230 spell dmg, hit capped. I'm the lock-tank on Leotheras(we haven't gotten to Vashj yet, but we're close), and I've been running a 7/44/10 spec, based on Felguard/utility.

Now my problem is I'd really like to get my dps higher. Even on the felguard spec I do pretty nice dps, but when we hit Vashj I was thinking a 0/40/21 spec would be better, thus crit will be become a larger focus for me.

I'm currently geared like an afflic lock so my question is, when I move to a ruin-based spec how do I compare spell dmg to crit on a point to point basis?
FG spec will out damage 40/21 if both are using their pets. FG spec will outdamage any other warlock spec, with the exception of maybe late sunwell destruction. That's IF they are using pets, I would find it hard to keep a fg, much less a succubus alive during vashj. SL damage and errant AE will make her dirt-nap pretty fast.
#2591SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Zargouhl
hmm, so another question then...assuming I stay FG spec(have to for leo anyway), am I better off with the 7 points in affliction or putting those into dest for the extra crit?

and on another question, how do destruction locks compare spell dmg vs crit?
#2592SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1galzohar
1 damage is about as good as 1 crit rating (making spell damage better use of itemization points), but it could be a little bit more or less depending on your current gear and the warlock/shadowpriest setup (due to ISB).
#2593SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Vlar
Originally Posted by Eradorn View Post
Several of the posters talking about the Aff locks said that they cast Immolate. The guide doesn't suggest this, and I would think that with Shadow Power, your cast time and mana would be better served casting another SB.

Yes, no, maybeso?
I think it partly a gearing issue as well.

Firstly, there are some Shadow damage pieces that last us for a long time (Kara neck, Boots from Hydross, Cape from MH/BT trash) as such most locks try to pick them up with the side effect of +shadow being higher than +fire.

Secondly, Immolate has a lower coefficient due to its two-part effect. The first part is also effected by its ability to crit, which is something that tends to be lacking.
#2594SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Andersnordic
Which build (+pet) is considered superior when tanking Alythess?

I browsed through and was surprised to see a consensus hasn't been made.
#2595SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Pentamorfi
The build and pet that best suits your guild and your lock, there's no one answer to that. We're using a 21/40 lock with an imp out.
#2596SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Smurrf
A guildmate of mine runs the usual 0/21/40 spec, but for whatever reason his DPS & damage done just isn't where it should be. I asked him about it a couple of times, and his response was that he had to scale back, because he kept on pulling aggro off the tanks, especially on trash. I wasn't really sure how to answer him, because I've been affliction since, oh, forever.

My question is this: How do SB nukers deal with the huge amount of threat they can pull down? When a Shadow Bolt can hit (and crit) for 6k or so regularly, that does tend to stack up. Do you use a different sac for trash? Or do you simply wait a little longer to go in (even though by the time you're able to start casting, the mob is already down half his health)? Currently, in mid T5, as an affliction lock, I'm out DPSing and out damaging him, and I KNOW that can't be right.

He's been going with a felhunter sac (I think that's the right one, anyways) so as to not have to worry about his mana bar at all, and admittedly that has raised him up more even with me, but I know that's not necessarily the best answer.
#2597SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Kedjim
I swapped from Affliction to 21/40 a couple months ago, and I haven't noticed any sort of increased threat generation other than from the increased dps. Yes, Destro threat can be bursty, but if he's having problems, have him either split his first 15 seconds swapping between different tank targets, or have the tank that builds threat fastest tank the first kill target. Another thing that might be getting him is if he pops something like an Icon of the Silver Crescent at the pull. Save the trinket for when threat gets a little more established.

I don't think there's ever a reason to use a Felhunter sac on trash, unless there's a mana burn. I always run a Succubus sac, since almost no trash pulls in SSC/TK last long enough to even need to lifetap more than once or twice. Just spam shadow bolts, tap to equal life/mana, and eat/drink.
#2598SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Ele'
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
I think the initial infernal you summon stays with you for the full duration of 5 minutes. I think you can even tell the enslave length by checking the buff timer (or this may be some addon I have).
I have a question about Enslave Demons. To be honest, I was wondering if it was not broken or something. Let me explain...

Something like two weeks ago, a Doomguard spawned during our Akama fight (due to a Curse of Doom killing an add). Appart from the fact that it was very funny, we noted something weird. The first enslave had a 5 minutes duration (yeah, without CoS or anything), the following one stayed for about half this duration, and so on. So, we decided that another warlock would enslave it, as he should not have any DR on this demon.

So I ban the poor thing before my fellow raiders tear it to pieces, my warlock friend try to enslave it, but the spell failed. The reason for the spell failure was that the target was already taped by someone else, as if the other warlock was not in my party (to be exact, he was in my raid AND in my party).

Did I miss the memo about being unable to enslave a demon that was previously enslaved by someone else in your group ?
#2599SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1InterSlayer
Originally Posted by Smurrf View Post
A guildmate of mine runs the usual 0/21/40 spec, but for whatever reason his DPS & damage done just isn't where it should be. I asked him about it a couple of times, and his response was that he had to scale back, because he kept on pulling aggro off the tanks, especially on trash. I wasn't really sure how to answer him, because I've been affliction since, oh, forever.

My question is this: How do SB nukers deal with the huge amount of threat they can pull down? When a Shadow Bolt can hit (and crit) for 6k or so regularly, that does tend to stack up. Do you use a different sac for trash? Or do you simply wait a little longer to go in (even though by the time you're able to start casting, the mob is already down half his health)? Currently, in mid T5, as an affliction lock, I'm out DPSing and out damaging him, and I KNOW that can't be right.

He's been going with a felhunter sac (I think that's the right one, anyways) so as to not have to worry about his mana bar at all, and admittedly that has raised him up more even with me, but I know that's not necessarily the best answer.
Destro threat management takes some getting use to because of surprise crits. I usually let my tanks get a good 15-20k lead in threat before settling into a SB spam. Even then, you have to keep a watchful eye on Omen.

Don't forget, tanks are part of the picture too. Make sure you're checking with other DPS and seeing if they are dialing it back a bit or having to use their threat-reduction abilities too often. If they are, it might be a sign your tank isn't generating enough threat.
#2600SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Kedjim
Originally Posted by Ele' View Post
I have a question about Enslave Demons. To be honest, I was wondering if it was not broken or something. Let me explain...

Something like two weeks ago, a Doomguard spawned during our Akama fight (due to a Curse of Doom killing an add). Appart from the fact that it was very funny, we noted something weird. The first enslave had a 5 minutes duration (yeah, without CoS or anything), the following one stayed for about half this duration, and so on. So, we decided that another warlock would enslave it, as he should not have any DR on this demon.

So I ban the poor thing before my fellow raiders tear it to pieces, my warlock friend try to enslave it, but the spell failed. The reason for the spell failure was that the target was already taped by someone else, as if the other warlock was not in my party (to be exact, he was in my raid AND in my party).

Did I miss the memo about being unable to enslave a demon that was previously enslaved by someone else in your group ?
I don't remember when this was implemented, but this sounds correct from what I know of it. Enslaving a demon puts a special "tap" on it specifically for that warlock. I've had rather nasty experiences trying to keep an enslave even on just the second cast, the DR completely wrecks all reliability.
#2601SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by Eradorn View Post
Several of the posters talking about the Aff locks said that they cast Immolate. The guide doesn't suggest this, and I would think that with Shadow Power, your cast time and mana would be better served casting another SB.

Yes, no, maybeso?
Check the section "Immolate vs Shadow Bolt". It depends on your specific gear and spec.
#2602SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Silverstorm
Originally Posted by Smurrf View Post
A guildmate of mine runs the usual 0/21/40 spec, but for whatever reason his DPS & damage done just isn't where it should be. I asked him about it a couple of times, and his response was that he had to scale back, because he kept on pulling aggro off the tanks, especially on trash. I wasn't really sure how to answer him, because I've been affliction since, oh, forever.

My question is this: How do SB nukers deal with the huge amount of threat they can pull down? When a Shadow Bolt can hit (and crit) for 6k or so regularly, that does tend to stack up. Do you use a different sac for trash? Or do you simply wait a little longer to go in (even though by the time you're able to start casting, the mob is already down half his health)? Currently, in mid T5, as an affliction lock, I'm out DPSing and out damaging him, and I KNOW that can't be right.

He's been going with a felhunter sac (I think that's the right one, anyways) so as to not have to worry about his mana bar at all, and admittedly that has raised him up more even with me, but I know that's not necessarily the best answer.
It's been a while since I was at mid-T5...but I seem to recall that being the "break-even" point for affliction and destruction. As hit/crit both start appearing on items, Destro begins to pull away as you move through T6 content.
#2603SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by Smurrf View Post
A guildmate of mine runs the usual 0/21/40 spec, but for whatever reason his DPS & damage done just isn't where it should be. I asked him about it a couple of times, and his response was that he had to scale back, because he kept on pulling aggro off the tanks, especially on trash. I wasn't really sure how to answer him, because I've been affliction since, oh, forever.

My question is this: How do SB nukers deal with the huge amount of threat they can pull down? When a Shadow Bolt can hit (and crit) for 6k or so regularly, that does tend to stack up. Do you use a different sac for trash? Or do you simply wait a little longer to go in (even though by the time you're able to start casting, the mob is already down half his health)? Currently, in mid T5, as an affliction lock, I'm out DPSing and out damaging him, and I KNOW that can't be right.

He's been going with a felhunter sac (I think that's the right one, anyways) so as to not have to worry about his mana bar at all, and admittedly that has raised him up more even with me, but I know that's not necessarily the best answer.
Any warlock using felhunter sac over succubus sac clearly is clueless, unless the fight specifically demanded it (Kazrogal comes to mind, but I wouldn't bother even on that).

My guess is he's making excuses for being lazy, clueless, or afk.

Have him spam agony on all tanked trash at the start of the pull. It does more damage overall, divides threat and avoids initial threat bursts.

Have him watch Omen on bosses and use Omen yourself to monitor his threat.

If he really is close to tank threat: there are plenty of good posts in this threat that explain how to mitigate threat, but for SB spam is basically comes down to what people already said. Some quick tips for this:

On trash: dps multiple targets to avoid threat issues
on bosses: don't use affliction damage (so CoE or CoR instead of CoD), since it's higher threat for destrolocks, use Life Tap whenever not full on mana and time your cooldowns and Soulshatter well. Start with a curse and an immolate to avoid initial threat bursts.
#2604SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Crepe
Originally Posted by Smurrf View Post
A guildmate of mine runs the usual 0/21/40 spec, but for whatever reason his DPS & damage done just isn't where it should be. I asked him about it a couple of times, and his response was that he had to scale back, because he kept on pulling aggro off the tanks, especially on trash. I wasn't really sure how to answer him, because I've been affliction since, oh, forever.

My question is this: How do SB nukers deal with the huge amount of threat they can pull down? When a Shadow Bolt can hit (and crit) for 6k or so regularly, that does tend to stack up. Do you use a different sac for trash? Or do you simply wait a little longer to go in (even though by the time you're able to start casting, the mob is already down half his health)? Currently, in mid T5, as an affliction lock, I'm out DPSing and out damaging him, and I KNOW that can't be right.
Holding back on trash is one potential answer. Another is to alternately nuke/dot off-tanked targets, spreading the threat around.

One thing to note, affliction is usually pretty good on raid trash. You've got lots of targets to dot up, your threat is less spikey, you start damage from the pull rather than waiting on tanks, and you're usually armed with less +spellhit (which is wasted on trash).

If he's still having problems on bosses with threat, things to examine include:

1. Does he have Destructive Reach?
2. Does he have BoS (you want this over all other blessings)?
3. Is he popping trinkets at the start of a pull?
4. Before you start blaming tanks, are other direct damage DPS having threat issues? If so, make sure tanks are they using their rage effectively. *insert numerous tips about improving tank threat here; there's even a thread for it*

I did have monstrous threat issues at the start-to-middle of T5, but those mostly evaporated as our tanks grew more comfortable with TBC mechanics, their gear increased, and we ditched KTM for Omen. Play it safe and learn to love Soul Shatter.

Originally Posted by Smurrf View Post
He's been going with a felhunter sac (I think that's the right one, anyways) so as to not have to worry about his mana bar at all, and admittedly that has raised him up more even with me, but I know that's not necessarily the best answer.
FH sac is almost never worth it compared to Suc sac. He can easily compare it using the spreadsheet, but I seriously doubt it's better, especially on trash (since you can drink between pulls).

One other thing about FH sac - each tick generates threat. I think it's 1 threat/MP, but I could be mistaken about the exact values. While it's probably not the 15% extra threat that the Suc sac is doing, it's definitely not the best investment in terms of damage/threat generated.

EDIT:
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Any warlock using felhunter sac over succubus sac clearly is clueless, unless the fight specifically demanded it (Kazrogal comes to mind, but I wouldn't bother even on that).
I find that for both Kaz'rogal and EoS, Super Mana pots + Suc sac out DPS FH by a large margin. You do have to LT more, but the 15% damage still wins out. Maaaaaaaybe Mama due to the stupidity of resist gear, but even then, I doubt it.
#2605SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Fudder
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
update: Heroism/Bloodlust do NOT decrease the global cooldown of 1.5s for warlocks. Haste rating does (since patch 2.4) and is therefore a very good stat for any warlock now. Global cooldown is capped 1s, making the haste cap 50%, which is near 800, not obtainable in a raid setting. Haste still suffers from diminishing returns due to your MP5 not contributing, but for most purposes pretty much provides linear increase to your dps. Total dps = unhasted dps * (1+haste rating/1577)

I believe they do, actually.
#2606SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1sarf
Originally Posted by Dancing Wu Li Master View Post
Make new pants? You'd end up with the pants + threat cost, plus the cost of the gems. Compare that to regemming, which would cost only the price of the gems (double if you eventually regem back to what you have now). There is no way that's an economical solution.
Well, as I said, it was from the POV of having an Alchemist. I also have quite a few friends with free Spellcloth CDs. Personally, I dislike destroying gems as it feels like taking gold and just destroying it - I much prefer solutions that, while having an initially higher cost allows me to eliminate subsequent costs.
Besides, having a few more items in your wardrobe shouldn't be that much of a bother for a pure DPS class, now should it?

Thread cost is not high on my server due to an amazing amount of people getting motes of mana - the nether is mostly opportunity (or 70-80G in gold) cost since I've been doing heroics for a while, and the nether market isn't very good on my server (low price, low availability, people prefer doing stuff out of mats ground out on their own, I guess).

That said, you're most probably right. I just don't like destroying invested assets, even if it is just a few 50-60 gold gems (current price for a VNT on my server).

Also, getting the shroud - while costly - can be worth it if it allows you to exchange items from other slots. I'm certainly not a spellhit nut, but more options is always better than less - the only one who can determine whether the cost of more options is worth it is you.
#2607SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1rochan
Originally Posted by sarf View Post
Well, as I said, it was from the POV of having an Alchemist. I also have quite a few friends with free Spellcloth CDs. Personally, I dislike destroying gems as it feels like taking gold and just destroying it - I much prefer solutions that, while having an initially higher cost allows me to eliminate subsequent costs.
Besides, having a few more items in your wardrobe shouldn't be that much of a bother for a pure DPS class, now should it?

Thread cost is not high on my server due to an amazing amount of people getting motes of mana - the nether is mostly opportunity (or 70-80G in gold) cost since I've been doing heroics for a while, and the nether market isn't very good on my server (low price, low availability, people prefer doing stuff out of mats ground out on their own, I guess).

That said, you're most probably right. I just don't like destroying invested assets, even if it is just a few 50-60 gold gems (current price for a VNT on my server).

Also, getting the shroud - while costly - can be worth it if it allows you to exchange items from other slots. I'm certainly not a spellhit nut, but more options is always better than less - the only one who can determine whether the cost of more options is worth it is you.
Hahaha that's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. How can you argue spending 1400g in mats is cheaper than regemming.
#2608SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by Fudder View Post
I believe they do, actually.
And you're right. Thanks for correcting. Updated.
#2609SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Smurrf
Originally Posted by sarf View Post
Well, as I said, it was from the POV of having an Alchemist. I also have quite a few friends with free Spellcloth CDs. Personally, I dislike destroying gems as it feels like taking gold and just destroying it - I much prefer solutions that, while having an initially higher cost allows me to eliminate subsequent costs.
Besides, having a few more items in your wardrobe shouldn't be that much of a bother for a pure DPS class, now should it?

Thread cost is not high on my server due to an amazing amount of people getting motes of mana - the nether is mostly opportunity (or 70-80G in gold) cost since I've been doing heroics for a while, and the nether market isn't very good on my server (low price, low availability, people prefer doing stuff out of mats ground out on their own, I guess).

That said, you're most probably right. I just don't like destroying invested assets, even if it is just a few 50-60 gold gems (current price for a VNT on my server).

Also, getting the shroud - while costly - can be worth it if it allows you to exchange items from other slots. I'm certainly not a spellhit nut, but more options is always better than less - the only one who can determine whether the cost of more options is worth it is you.
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
Hahaha that's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. How can you argue spending 1400g in mats is cheaper than regemming.

Actually, it's a very tank-ish solution.

To explain further...one of the worst habits a tank can have is to get rid of an item (whether by vendoring or DE) once you've replaced it. The problem? Tank items have different stats. Some have more defense, some have more dodge, etc. Especially when you speak of defense numbers, there comes a point in time where in order to be able to wear upgrade XXX, you have to downgrade another slot to item YYY, to make sure that you're still uncrittable, or uncrushable, depending on the stats you're talking about. Even months after you upgrade an item, you'll realize that that trinket, or that shield, actually still has relevance for this fight or that encounter.

I understand what he's saying here. Keeping items that are gemmed and enchanted out for one set of stats, while building up or purchasing another item in the same slot for different stats, allows maximum versatility. Is it expensive to do? It can be. But he did mention friends who had available CD's, which certainly mitigates the cost. And you never know, there may come a point in time where having that extra set of pants (or whatever) on hand may save him a lot of time in the future. And that may be worth the cost of building up additional items now.

Keep in mind, too, that he was originally answering to someone else looking for suggestions. It'll depend on how that person weighs their time vs their available cash. If they have the time to grind out badges, then it's a moot point. If he happens to be someone who's already booked out, but has a decent cash supply, then it might make more sense for the person in question to simply make what he needs to.

Finally, he's not saying that spending 1400g is cheaper than regemming at all, unless I completely missed something in between. He's saying it's better to pay a large amount upfront, than to have to worry later on down the road about regemming every single time a person gets an upgrade. Think about it like this: You gem out your belt, and at the time, you need hit. So you gem for such. Then you get an upgrade for your bracers that has more hit, so you gem the belt for crit. Then a neckpiece comes along that upgrades your crit, so now you want to gem the belt for haste. Over time, given enough upgrades, you could feasibly spend a good amount regemming each and every time. A couple of items held in reserve that are either duplicates (through badge purchases or drops from farmed bosses) or just plain sidegrades, set for different stats, would allow you to not have to worry about either having a huge stash of gems on hand, or have to worry about finding a gem and/or somone to cut it each time you get an upgrade.
#2610SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1calisti
Originally Posted by Zargouhl View Post
hmm, so another question then...assuming I stay FG spec(have to for leo anyway), am I better off with the 7 points in affliction or putting those into dest for the extra crit?
Having raided as both 6/44/11 and 1/44/16, I find I prefer the second build. Without haste gear, the benefit from Improved Corruption is minimal. Corruption may be cast instantly, but you still suffer from the the 1.5 second global cooldown. All this talent really does is give you the ability to cast while on the move. Placing 1 point in Improved Corruption gives you a 1.6 second cast and frees up 5 talent points to place in Devastation. Personally, I think the extra 5% crit is worth the loss of Improved Life Tap and a not-so-instant Corruption.

And to answer your earlier question, using a fel guard on Vashj is viable if you have the 2 piece T5 bonus. Keep your pet away from people with static charge and you should be fine.
#2611SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1rochan
Originally Posted by Smurrf View Post
Actually, it's a very tank-ish solution.

To explain further...one of the worst habits a tank can have is to get rid of an item (whether by vendoring or DE) once you've replaced it. The problem? Tank items have different stats. Some have more defense, some have more dodge, etc. Especially when you speak of defense numbers, there comes a point in time where in order to be able to wear upgrade XXX, you have to downgrade another slot to item YYY, to make sure that you're still uncrittable, or uncrushable, depending on the stats you're talking about. Even months after you upgrade an item, you'll realize that that trinket, or that shield, actually still has relevance for this fight or that encounter.

I understand what he's saying here. Keeping items that are gemmed and enchanted out for one set of stats, while building up or purchasing another item in the same slot for different stats, allows maximum versatility. Is it expensive to do? It can be. But he did mention friends who had available CD's, which certainly mitigates the cost. And you never know, there may come a point in time where having that extra set of pants (or whatever) on hand may save him a lot of time in the future. And that may be worth the cost of building up additional items now.

Keep in mind, too, that he was originally answering to someone else looking for suggestions. It'll depend on how that person weighs their time vs their available cash. If they have the time to grind out badges, then it's a moot point. If he happens to be someone who's already booked out, but has a decent cash supply, then it might make more sense for the person in question to simply make what he needs to.

Finally, he's not saying that spending 1400g is cheaper than regemming at all, unless I completely missed something in between. He's saying it's better to pay a large amount upfront, than to have to worry later on down the road about regemming every single time a person gets an upgrade. Think about it like this: You gem out your belt, and at the time, you need hit. So you gem for such. Then you get an upgrade for your bracers that has more hit, so you gem the belt for crit. Then a neckpiece comes along that upgrades your crit, so now you want to gem the belt for haste. Over time, given enough upgrades, you could feasibly spend a good amount regemming each and every time. A couple of items held in reserve that are either duplicates (through badge purchases or drops from farmed bosses) or just plain sidegrades, set for different stats, would allow you to not have to worry about either having a huge stash of gems on hand, or have to worry about finding a gem and/or somone to cut it each time you get an upgrade.
Yes ideally you never want to regem, but making two of the same item is even more of a sin.

When you're just starting out, you won't really have much choice what gear to use. For me this was before they even made spell hit gems, and it's not like you'll have to min/max your gear to beat Gruul. As you gear up you'll get more items that have different stats and you can swap them out. I regularly swap out maybe 5-6 items depending on the situation.

Also it doesn't matter if he already has the mats for the item. It doesn't make it "free", he is still using those mats therefore he is spending the money.
#2612SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Smurrf
I fail to see how having multiples of the same item is a sin.

And you're still missing the point. No one ever said it was free. No one ever said it was even remotely cheaper. What was stated was that there's basically a convenience factor that you're paying for. By looking and planning ahead, one can eliminate some fair amount of bother.

If you're that worried that it's costing too much, simply switch it to drops. If you're running enough instances/raids, there's going to come a point in time where you're going to see an item drop that you already wear, that has a lot of customizable options. Lots of sockets, a nice bonus, and happens to be a slot with some flexibility in enchanting. Why not snag it, especially if there's no penalty (as in, it's just going to be a shard if you don't take it) and set it up to switch out if the situation comes up?

Don't just look at it from one perspective, take a step back and look at it from another angle. Is it, perhaps, expensive? Possibly, depending on the slot and how you obtain an item. Is it a sin, is it stupid, is it someone being a dumbass? No, and there's no need to classify it as such. There's more than one way to do things, and personal priority will play a big part in how that's done.
#2613SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Liminality
i think someone is forgetting that we are warlocks


there is only going to be one way to maximize DPS... options are completely irrelevant. Exceptions being like a tanking set or sperate boss and trash sets.

Last edited by Liminality : 04/23/08 at 2:54 PM.
#2614SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1rochan
Originally Posted by Smurrf View Post
I fail to see how having multiples of the same item is a sin.

And you're still missing the point. No one ever said it was free. No one ever said it was even remotely cheaper. What was stated was that there's basically a convenience factor that you're paying for. By looking and planning ahead, one can eliminate some fair amount of bother.
Should I buy another car when mine runs out of gas? Shitty analogy but isn't making a 2nd spellstrike set a whole lot more bother than tossing in a few gems?

If you're that worried that it's costing too much, simply switch it to drops. If you're running enough instances/raids, there's going to come a point in time where you're going to see an item drop that you already wear, that has a lot of customizable options. Lots of sockets, a nice bonus, and happens to be a slot with some flexibility in enchanting. Why not snag it, especially if there's no penalty (as in, it's just going to be a shard if you don't take it) and set it up to switch out if the situation comes up?
Do you really think I'm unaware that you can do this? I already said this was the best option.

Don't just look at it from one perspective, take a step back and look at it from another angle. Is it, perhaps, expensive? Possibly, depending on the slot and how you obtain an item. Is it a sin, is it stupid, is it someone being a dumbass? No, and there's no need to classify it as such. There's more than one way to do things, and personal priority will play a big part in how that's done.
I only give my own perspective. I think I have more knowledge/experience than most of the posters here so when I see something that looks very wrong I put in my 2 cents. I do enjoy hearing other people's points of view because it lets me take a look at it from their perspective and see if I can fix it.

Liminality - you forget about elemental shaman. If you have one you can try and cut 3-4% hit from your gear and optimize it that way. Some fights you may want more HP, that sort of thing.
#2615SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Bolche
Originally Posted by calisti View Post
Having raided as both 6/44/11 and 1/44/16, I find I prefer the second build. Without haste gear, the benefit from Improved Corruption is minimal. Corruption may be cast instantly, but you still suffer from the the 1.5 second global cooldown. All this talent really does is give you the ability to cast while on the move. Placing 1 point in Improved Corruption gives you a 1.6 second cast and frees up 5 talent points to place in Devastation. Personally, I think the extra 5% crit is worth the loss of Improved Life Tap and a not-so-instant Corruption.
They are very close in term of personal sustained dps but the devastation build :
- Improve significantly the ISB uptime (2-4%) and thus raid DPS.
- has a better burst dps. They are many fight where you have free time to LT (time where your LT are not taken from your nuking time).
#2616SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1bffjil
hmm

I am unable to start my own thread because I have not yet reached the new user limit. I will post this here and hopefully be able to get a response in this clutter of affliction talk. I recently decided to spec fire destruction and my dps has seen a pretty noticable upgrade.

I have searched the forums for a couple days and have not been able to find a pure answer with any proof of what I am about to ask. (yes I have tried searching for every combination of destruction warlocks in pve and spell haste you can think of) Here is my question.

Is there a specific line playing fire destro that is when haste hits a diminishing return and starts becoming worth less than spell damage. From the information I have gathered as of right now 1 spell haste is more dps than one damage but people are continuously arguing over this.

I know elemental shamans have a graph showing this but do warlocks? or is there no diminishing returns even considering mana issues?
#2617SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by bffjil View Post
I am unable to start my own thread because I have not yet reached the new user limit. I will post this here and hopefully be able to get a response in this clutter of affliction talk. I recently decided to spec fire destruction and my dps has seen a pretty noticable upgrade.

I have searched the forums for a couple days and have not been able to find a pure answer with any proof of what I am about to ask. (yes I have tried searching for every combination of destruction warlocks in pve and spell haste you can think of) Here is my question.

Is there a specific line playing fire destro that is when haste hits a diminishing return and starts becoming worth less than spell damage. From the information I have gathered as of right now 1 spell haste is more dps than one damage but people are continuously arguing over this.

I know elemental shamans have a graph showing this but do warlocks? or is there no diminishing returns even considering mana issues?
No specific point, it is a combination of where your +dmg, +haste, +crit, and +hit are at, just use the spreadsheet. Haste obviously has its own diminshing returns that makes it worse the more you have.. but more important is where your other stats are at. Rarely are you going to have a gear setup where 1dmg > 1haste .. but you will often flip flop on 1.2 dmg vs 1haste. No simple graph could show this.. if someone wants to make 10 graphics of increasing haste vs other values at different points feel free.
#2618SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by Liminality View Post
i think someone is forgetting that we are warlocks


there is only going to be one way to maximize DPS... options are completely irrelevant. Exceptions being like a tanking set or sperate boss and trash sets.
I've deliberately written the guide so it gives an overview of what specs do work, and so it doesn't pigeonhole everyone into "the one true spec". There's tradeoffs between talents, just as there's tradeoffs in gear. And what works for one person might not be the best choice for another, due to lag, taste, or play skill.

I would very much like it if people tried to give advice in a constructive atmosphere. (not intended for just the OP)


To be fair, I wouldn't recommend making [Pattern: Spellstrike Pants] twice just so you could save money on regemming. They are kind of expensive.

Typically, when I get an upgrade that lowers my stamina, I'll keep the old bit around so I have a stamina set. And of course it pays to have some spare bits so you can put yourself close to the hit cap, even when there's no elemental shaman.
#2619SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Trospar
Originally Posted by rochan View Post
Should I buy another car when mine runs out of gas? Shitty analogy but isn't making a 2nd spellstrike set a whole lot more bother than tossing in a few gems?
A better analogy would be that you own a Ford Pinto but you want to do a NASCAR race. You have the option of putting on some new tires (gems) or getting another car (pants). The problem is that when you are driving your Pinto to work you are using these horrible tires (gems) that aren't as useful as your fuel efficient old ones.

If you have the money/time/mats, I could definitely see making another set of [Spellstrike Pants]. An easier option would be to run Kara and grab some [Trial-Fire Trousers].
#2620SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Eriksen
Hello fellow Warlocks.

I have just rerolled warlock after being priest (Eriksen) since release. I am a Guild Master of the raiding guild Seven on Turalyon. The fact that it is very hard getting "good" raiding warlocks, we decided for me to reroll.
Picked up a dusty 70 warlock and started to gear him up about 3-4 weeks ago and this is my current situation
The World of Warcraft Armory

I have been reading this forum ever since and it has helped me alot. Since I have played healer all the time, I like playing my warlock in a "healer-friendly" way. and ended up on 7/44/10 I just love this spec and playstyle.

But.... in tems of theorycrafting and optimalization I consider myself a "noob" warlock and I want to be as best as possible. Atm my goal is the 75 badge reward boots and the class trinket from Solarian, sadly we dont officially raid TK anymore, so I try killing her with unofficial raids and hope for my luck.

At this stage we have killed in BT up to supremus and MH currently on 4th boss.
Nevertheless. If it is not too much to ask, are there anyone out there with greater experience that can guide and direct me abit more? I want the spec I have atm, or very similar. But items and sockets im not 100% sure of.
Everything up to mid BT/MH is within my reach, I am just not sure if I am making the right choices.
Any good and usefull tips and hints are much appretiated by this new warlock

Kind Regards, Neskire.
#2621SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Demoniack
As a firelock in BT/Hyjal gear, should I use Flame Cap or Destruction Potion to improve my DPS in a safe way ?

I mean safe way because if I use Destruction Potion I can use my Healthstone if I need to, and if I use Flame Cap I can use Super Rejuv if I need too. I think Flame Cap do more DPS but I'm not sure, what do you use firelocks ?

Last edited by Demoniack : 04/24/08 at 1:25 PM.
#2622SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Gumibear
Flame Caps average to be more damage over time than Destruction Potions. Also a Super Rejuv pot, since it gives back mana as well as health, increases your DPS (saving you life tap time) while a Healthstone does not.
#2623SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1scottemad123
For myself it really depends on my group makeup and timings within the fight. Lately I've been using mana potions over destruction potions because of the lack of running two shadow priests within our raids lately. I use flame caps on occasion on fights where I know I won't be taking too much splash damage, or fights like brutallus. As for destro pots, when I do use them I try to time them with trinket bombs and heroisms. But for the most part when learning fights, I save healthstone timers for emergencies, and use mana pots to keep from life tapping to save my healers some stress.
#2624SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1graywolffencer
Let me start off by preemptively apologizing if this question has been answered in a previous post. I've spent a good deal of time looking for the answer (in this thread and in others) but nothing yet... Still, I might have missed something

With that out of the way, on to the question:

(armory: The World of Warcraft Armory )
I'm a 0/21/40 lock in a t5 content guild, and am currently shunning the t5 gear and still using the 2-piece bonus of tier 4. The question is this: At what point does the 2-piece t4 bonus become less effective then the straight stats of higher-grade pieces? And which two pieces would you guys recommend using? To be honest, the bonuses from t5 look like absolute crap for a destro and the proc from the two-piece t4 seems to go off quite a bit.

Any help?

(Also, if someone knows just how frequently it does indeed proc, that would be useful as well)

Thanks for your time
#2625SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Mirya
The 2-piece Tier 4 bonus ends up being about +35 dmg under ideal conditions. By ideal conditions, meaning you get to keep nuking during the entirety of the proc (which doesn't always happen). It's a good bonus but I think tier 5 level gear is better. IMO you should replace the tier 4 pieces once you find gear in those slots that collectively exceed +35 dmg.

edit: the set bonus gives you more benefit if you're affliction spec, since you cast more spells, hence it procs more often. If you're destruction spec, it's less than +35 dmg
#2626SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rozzenwyn
I would love to see an addition to the first post that would give some idea how much haste raiding you need on an item to justify giving up a point of damage. Before 2.4 came out Shadowseer was telling me that at my gear level (4 piece T5 and equivalent T5 level) that haste would actually benefit me more than anything else. I'm hit capped and 7/44/10 specced demo lock who uses felguard for raiding. I'm running at around 1570-1625 shadow damage when fully raid buffed (not including wrath of air totem or any other things that are not up the entire time. The 1600 numbers usually has another lock in the group with an imp stam buff which boosts me over the 1600 range. I'm low on crit (just under 20%) because everything I've seen with my spec (and shadowseer seemed to support) that damage was better for me and we already have 2 destro locks with crit % in the high 30's and mid 40's. I want to start stacking haste but I'm having issues evaluating an item and deciding if the amount of haste it has is worth the loss of spell damage that another similar item has.

So any discussion about the tradeoff numbers would be a huge help!
#2627SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by Gumibear View Post
Flame Caps average to be more damage over time than Destruction Potions. Also a Super Rejuv pot, since it gives back mana as well as health, increases your DPS (saving you life tap time) while a Healthstone does not.
What are you talking about.. Flame caps and destruction potions don't share a cooldown, and super rejuv pots give less mana back then super mana pots.
#2628SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Torq
Originally Posted by Rozzenwyn View Post
I would love to see an addition to the first post that would give some idea how much haste raiding you need on an item to justify giving up a point of damage. Before 2.4 came out Shadowseer was telling me that at my gear level (4 piece T5 and equivalent T5 level) that haste would actually benefit me more than anything else. I'm hit capped and 7/44/10 specced demo lock who uses felguard for raiding. I'm running at around 1570-1625 shadow damage when fully raid buffed (not including wrath of air totem or any other things that are not up the entire time. The 1600 numbers usually has another lock in the group with an imp stam buff which boosts me over the 1600 range. I'm low on crit (just under 20%) because everything I've seen with my spec (and shadowseer seemed to support) that damage was better for me and we already have 2 destro locks with crit % in the high 30's and mid 40's. I want to start stacking haste but I'm having issues evaluating an item and deciding if the amount of haste it has is worth the loss of spell damage that another similar item has.

So any discussion about the tradeoff numbers would be a huge help!
Spreadsheet would tell you exact numbers, but remember:

I would say for you, given that your SB gets 20% less effect from your +dmg as a destro lock's does, that haste would be more heavily weighted in your favor.

But that's just off the top of my head, the spreadsheet can give you a much more definitive answer.
#2629SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Ammanas
Basically, it comes down to if you are needing to Life Tap at all then a mana pot is always going to be better than a destruction potion. Even if you have a shadow priest, if you are having to life tap 4-5 times using a mana potion on CD to turn some of those GCDs spent tapping into Shadow Bolts is going to be more DPS. The spreadsheet backs this up, as even with a shadow priest/mana spring/JoW enabled I still get more DPS using mana potions.

I will use a destruction potion at the very beginning on Brutallus for the extra damage on my first CoD, but after that its mana pots all the way (you have to watch your threat burning one at the beginning).
#2630SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
What are you talking about.. Flame caps and destruction potions don't share a cooldown, and super rejuv pots give less mana back then super mana pots.
[Super Rejuvenation Potion] vs [Super Mana Potion]
#2631SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Proving my point? Anyways the main purpose of my post was to respond to the "Destro pots vs Flamecaps" question.
#2632SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rozzenwyn
Originally Posted by Torq View Post
Spreadsheet would tell you exact numbers, but remember:

I would say for you, given that your SB gets 20% less effect from your +dmg as a destro lock's does, that haste would be more heavily weighted in your favor.

But that's just off the top of my head, the spreadsheet can give you a much more definitive answer.
Thanks, I'll give it a shot, I plugged in my stats and played with the immolate or no immolate options a bit and determined that I've been right in using immolate with my spec but didn't have any specific pieces of gear in mind at the time so didn't yet sit down and figure out how the gear upgrade area works. Didn't realize that it might be able to make these calculations for me.

Still would be nice to have a sorta guideline of 1 spell haste = ?? spell damage (and same thing for crit) so if the item has 35 spell damage and 20 spell haste vs an item with 45 spell damage I can decide whether or not it is an even trade off or an upgrade or a downgrade etc. more on the spot. I do study boss loot charts and such and try to figure out what items I think are upgrades for me ahead of times but sometimes one site will miss an item and not list it under the boss or something and it will drop and I have to try to make a decision on the spot as to whether I want it or not.

Maybe the worksheet will help me figure those numbers out myself. I'll give it a whirl. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated. We are 3/5 MH and 4/9 BT so I am starting to have more access to haste gear. Plus I'm trying to decide on badge gear and whether or not I can swing getting some haste gems once the vendor is up on our server etc. In particular I'm having a really hard time figuring out if any of the badge robes are an upgrade for me. I'm still wearing Frozen Shadoweave Robe. If I went for the Spell Crit badge robe then I'm losing 22 shadow damage and gaining 50 crit and would need to socket with 8 hit gem to get back to hit cap. I don't know if that's an upgrade or not. With the Hit robe I'd again lose about 22 shadow damage but gain 21 hit putting me over the cap and making me able to regem quite a few slots. Problem is I'd want to put haste gems there but don't yet have enough badges to buy the robe and enough gems. We aren't regularly raiding SSC or TK anymore so Vashj Robes and T5 Robes aren't currently an option. I'd really like the ones off Archimonde but could be a little while yet before we get him down as we are splitting time in both instances.

Here's my armory if anyone wants to take a look and give me an opinion (with stats to back it up) on which robe would be an upgrade if either. The World of Warcraft Armory
#2633SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Trickykid
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
Proving my point? Anyways the main purpose of my post was to respond to the "Destro pots vs Flamecaps" question.
I believe the question posed was Destro Pot + Healthstone v. Rejuv Pot + Flame cap.

Still would be nice to have a sorta guideline of 1 spell haste = ?? spell damage (and same thing for crit)
The spreadsheet has this info on the DPS tab. It also has a list of all the items with their values based on your current stats. It'll give you better advice on gear choices than we can.
#2634SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rozzenwyn
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
I believe the question posed was Destro Pot + Healthstone v. Rejuv Pot + Flame cap.


The spreadsheet has this info on the DPS tab. It also has a list of all the items with their values based on your current stats. It'll give you better advice on gear choices than we can.

Awesome I did not see this. I'll check it out when I get home. Thanks!
#2635SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Krazen
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
What are you talking about.. Flame caps and destruction potions don't share a cooldown, and super rejuv pots give less mana back then super mana pots.
I think his idea was to keep 1 of them available for an emergency health refill.
#2636SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Krazen
Originally Posted by Ammanas View Post
Basically, it comes down to if you are needing to Life Tap at all then a mana pot is always going to be better than a destruction potion. Even if you have a shadow priest, if you are having to life tap 4-5 times using a mana potion on CD to turn some of those GCDs spent tapping into Shadow Bolts is going to be more DPS. The spreadsheet backs this up, as even with a shadow priest/mana spring/JoW enabled I still get more DPS using mana potions.

I will use a destruction potion at the very beginning on Brutallus for the extra damage on my first CoD, but after that its mana pots all the way (you have to watch your threat burning one at the beginning).

What good does that do? Even if you can get a 4th pot in, right at the berserk, if you do your job right you'll be near the top of the aggro list and one of the first players to get flattened and unable to use that 4th pot anyway.
#2637SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rozzenwyn
Aha I have been using a different warlock spreadsheet. I thought i got it from here, hmm dunno where I got it from. Off to play with this one.
#2638SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Ammanas
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
What good does that do? Even if you can get a 4th pot in, right at the berserk, if you do your job right you'll be near the top of the aggro list and one of the first players to get flattened and unable to use that 4th pot anyway.
If I use a destro pot, I can use it the instant we pull (actually ~8-10 seconds before) and have my mana pot come up right at the end of the fight during that final burn where I'm usually bloodlusted and don't want to life tap if at all avoidable. If I wait until I spend the 3k mana I need to make sure I'm not wasting a mana pot, my CD won't be up until well into the enrage (which we never see anyway since we generally kill him with 5-10 seconds before enrage).
#2639SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Elane
Originally Posted by Ammanas View Post
Basically, it comes down to if you are needing to Life Tap at all then a mana pot is always going to be better than a destruction potion. Even if you have a shadow priest, if you are having to life tap 4-5 times using a mana potion on CD to turn some of those GCDs spent tapping into Shadow Bolts is going to be more DPS. The spreadsheet backs this up, as even with a shadow priest/mana spring/JoW enabled I still get more DPS using mana potions.
I know that according to the spreadsheet using mana pots is always better than using Destro pots, but what about when you're stacking cooldowns? I think the story behind the Mana potting is > Destro pots if you spend any time lifetapping, is just because the spreadsheet gives averages to potions. Whereas, Destro potting while hasted sounds like it'd up the benefit. I mean, a mana pot at the very maximum would give enough mana to circumvent less than 2 lifetaps.

Say you tap once or twice before one of these cooldown phases(Bloodlust for example) and have your trinkets ready along with a destro pot. Just thinking about it in my head seems like a better use of a pot cooldown.

Also, what about just destro potting with a Skull activation?
#2640SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Ammanas
Destro pots don't scale as amazingly well with cooldowns as you might think, they only last 15 seconds and even with a BL and Skull plus some passive haste and drums realistically the most shadow bolts you are going to fit into that window is 9 (takes a 1.66 sec casting time). For a destro potion to be worth it, the extra +120 damage and 2% crit on those 9 shadow bolts is going to have to out-do the damage of one normal SB (assuming a mana pot only saves you one SB, which is a bit of a stretch).

My math is probably wrong here, but 120 damage when multiplied by the talented SB coefficient (105.75) is ~127. Multiply that by 43% for the damage multiplyers (13% maledicted CoS/15% Sacced Succy/10% SW/5% Misery) and I get ~182 extra damage per SB or ~1635 damage total assuming 9 SBs. Even if you assume 100% ISB for the period, its a 63% damage increase which ends up being ~2160 total net damage.

That extra 2% crit chance on 9 SBs is hard to model, but I don't see it making up for the damage differential between 2160 damage and an average SB hit (for me is around 4k on this fight).

Like I said, my math is probably not correct but I just don't see how any number of CDs can make those 15 seconds of 120 damage and 2% crit worth the extra SB or two you get from a mana pot. However, if you get Burn you can life tap without losing DPS while running to and from the Burn spot and a destro pot would almost certainly be better since you shouldn't have much of a mana issue with those "free" life taps.

Last edited by Ammanas : 04/24/08 at 8:00 PM.
#2641SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by Elane View Post
I know that according to the spreadsheet using mana pots is always better than using Destro pots, but what about when you're stacking cooldowns? I think the story behind the Mana potting is > Destro pots if you spend any time lifetapping, is just because the spreadsheet gives averages to potions. Whereas, Destro potting while hasted sounds like it'd up the benefit. I mean, a mana pot at the very maximum would give enough mana to circumvent less than 2 lifetaps.

Say you tap once or twice before one of these cooldown phases(Bloodlust for example) and have your trinkets ready along with a destro pot. Just thinking about it in my head seems like a better use of a pot cooldown.

Also, what about just destro potting with a Skull activation?
I did some napkin math and found that if you stacked all cooldowns, you could come close to a mana pot's worth. Feel free to run some simulations and let us know how it turns out.
#2642SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by Ammanas View Post
Destro pots don't scale as amazingly well with cooldowns as you might think, they only last 15 seconds and even with a BL and Skull plus some passive haste and drums realistically the most shadow bolts you are going to fit into that window is 9 (takes a 1.66 sec casting time). For a destro potion to be worth it, the extra +120 damage and 2% crit on those 9 shadow bolts is going to have to out-do the damage of one normal SB (assuming a mana pot only saves you one SB, which is a bit of a stretch).

My math is probably wrong here, but 120 damage when multiplied by the talented SB coefficient (105.75) is ~127. Multiply that by 43% for the damage multiplyers (13% maledicted CoS/15% Sacced Succy/10% SW/5% Misery) and I get ~182 extra damage per SB or ~1635 damage total assuming 9 SBs. Even if you assume 100% ISB for the period, its a 63% damage increase which ends up being ~2160 total net damage.

That extra 2% crit chance on 9 SBs is hard to model, but I don't see it making up for the damage differential between 2160 damage and an average SB hit (for me is around 4k on this fight).

Like I said, my math is probably not correct but I just don't see how any number of CDs can make those 15 seconds of 120 damage and 2% crit worth the extra SB or two you get from a mana pot. However, if you get Burn you can life tap without losing DPS while running to and from the Burn spot and a destro pot would almost certainly be better since you shouldn't have much of a mana issue with those "free" life taps.
10.. maybe 11 Bolts is within the realm of possibility, and mana pot averages 2400 which is not one shadowbolt, but more like 0.7-0.8 shadowbolts

It isn't 43% its multiplicative it is 127*1.13*1.1*1.05*1.15*isb * t6* crit modifier(if you crit 30% and have the meta that 30% would be 1.327) which is 322 with 100% isb uptime, still nearly twice as much as what you calculated.. at 9 bolts thats 2900, plus 2% crit which should be worth around +40-50dmg so like 3880dmg.. so worse than a full bolt but maybe better than 0.7-0.8 of a bolt. Especially if you can get into 10-11 bolt range.

Plus on brutallus 2 mana pots, +dark runes, +good spriest, +judge/blessing, +tide/spring, + starting pool of 11-12k mana you won't need a 3rd mana pot.

Last edited by Flamingcloud : 04/24/08 at 10:58 PM.
#2643SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Krazen
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
10.. maybe 11 Bolts is within the realm of possibility, and mana pot averages 2400 which is not one shadowbolt, but more like 0.7-0.8 shadowbolts

It isn't 43% its multiplicative it is 127*1.13*1.1*1.05*1.15*isb * t6* crit modifier(if you crit 30% and have the meta that 30% would be 1.327) which is 322 with 100% isb uptime, still nearly twice as much as what you calculated.. at 9 bolts thats 2900, plus 2% crit which should be worth around +40-50dmg so like 3880dmg.. so worse than a full bolt but maybe better than 0.7-0.8 of a bolt. Especially if you can get into 10-11 bolt range.

Plus on brutallus 2 mana pots, +dark runes, +good spriest, +judge/blessing, +tide/spring, + starting pool of 11-12k mana you won't need a 3rd mana pot.
You'd have to have very low latency, perfect play, and amazing gear to get 10 casts in 15 seconds.

AFAIK, spellpower is locked at the end of cast, so a shadowbolt started with 1 second of the destro pot doesn't get the benefit.
#2644SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Gumibear
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
What are you talking about.. Flame caps and destruction potions don't share a cooldown, and super rejuv pots give less mana back then super mana pots.
Read the question I responded to. The person essentially asked whether to use the healthstone cooldown for emergencies and use Destruction potions or to use Flame Caps and use the potion timer for emergencies. Flame Caps + Super Rejuv pots would maximize DPS while providing an emergency heal.
#2645SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Torq
Just a strange little finding I ran across, but need some confirmation on it.

I was looking up the [Blade of Wizardry] because I found it sitting in my bank, from one of those times where I had too much cash and not enough to spend it on (picked it up for 500g, incidentally). From what I've read, it has a 15% proc chance, with a 30% internal cooldown. However, this isn't in the spreadsheet, at least not weighting the proc worth anything (should be wroth x haste)

Compared to my current weapon ([Nathrezim Mindblade], lol I know... >_<), I lose 44 +dmg and 23 crit rating (~1%). However, given the 6-second length of the buff, I should be able to get 3 shadowbolts cast (or started) during the proc. I know some procs are immediately applied, and as such affect the very next spell, but I don't know if this is one of them. I intend to test it when I get home, but if anyone knows offhand, that'd help greatly.

As it stands, if it takes immediate effect, with my haste gear it creates ~2.04 sec SB casts (this isn't counting my shiny new shoulders). This enables me to get 3 bolts out during it's uptime, and gives me effectively exactly the haste it tells me it does.

With the best case scenario (procs every 30 seconds), this gives me an average of 6/30 * 280 haste rating, or 56 average haste rating, if I've done the math right. Given my gear setup, according to the spreadsheet, 1 haste is worth ~1.37 dmg, so this is effectively 73,98 +dmg. Incredibly enough, this makes up for the crit and damage lost switching from the Mindblade (at 44 + 23*1.23 = 72.29 +dmg)

To verify this, I used it on our first RoS kill last night, and pulled off an incredible (for me, anyway) 1800 dps, with sub-optimal group composition (ele shammy but no SP in group). On previous pulls, I had a hard time breaking 1700 dps (with similar aoe in all pulls). Granted, I got some massive crits in phase 2, so part of the dps increase is due to good rolls, but it was an overall dps increase.

However, I realized that there's a breakpoint to be hit. If you can push the SB cast time to just under 2 sec with the proc up (1.98 sec cast time requires 412 haste, or 132 w/o buff) you can effectively extend the effects of the proc to ~8 sec (effecting 4 bolts at ~2 sec) raising it's average haste rating to something closer to 8/30 * 280 haste, or ~74 haste rating, increasing it's worth by 18 haste rating.

So, what I need to do now, to confirm this, is verify some assumptions, as well as generate a more accurate model for it's proc/uptime etc:
  • Does the proc apply to the very next SB (confirm/deny)
  • Determine procrate = 15% and cooldown = 30 sec (confirm/deny/modify)
  • Create a better model other than (proc length/cooldown * benefit) for the average - [E] model created, needs information from above to complete

I'm going to go scribble out some models on paper for a bit, then come back and edit this. Feel free to beat me to it/correct any assumptions I have made.

I'm not arguing that this is the "best in slot" item by any means, but it is worthwhile to see just how much this item is worth.

So, I generalized out the formulas I had on hand, and came up with this:

Effective +haste = (u / l) * v

Where:
v is the added value from the proc (280 in this case)
l is the effective cooldown (internal cooldown + expected time to proc)
u is uptime (total casting time under influence of proc's haste benefit)
l = (1/p * c) + icd
u = ceil(k/c') * c'

So, effective haste granted becomes:

h' = (ceil(k/c') * c') / (c/p + icd)) * v

Providing the following values:
  • c0 = 2.5
  • p = .15
  • k = 6 sec
  • v = 280
  • c = c0 / (1 + (h / 1570)) -- hasted cast speed w/o proc
  • c' = c0/ (1 + ((h + v) / 1570)) -- hasted cast speed w/ proc

Letting h be variable from 0-300 and solving for h' provided the following graph:



Note the inflection point at 113 haste. The effective haste granted by this weapon jumps from 36.9 haste to 49.2.

I also realized that these values were much lower than I had stated above, because I was forgetting to take the time to proc into account in determining the time between procs. Also, I concluded that my "dps increase" was a figment of my imagination, and I would have actually gotten more dps had I stuck with the Mindblade. Doh!

[E3] I realized this could also be used to model [Quagmirran's Eye] I'll see what it looks like a bit later

Last edited by Torq : 04/25/08 at 2:41 PM.
#2646SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Archona
I feel like a complete noob posting here, but I wanted to ask members outside my local area (members of the warlock community)...

My class lead would like me to drop UA and instant HoT (cry..I loves Instant HoT) and pick up ruin....noting that not much has seemed to drop for me as an affliction lock in Hyjal or BT (so far)......Is the loss of UA and Instant HOT a good thing (outside of soloing, which I LOVE the HoT being instant for) for the raid? I really am having trouble dropping them without arguing about it...but I want to help the raid, not hobble it...

Sorry if it's a stupid question, but I'm not wanting to do it without asking a large contingent of people who won't flame me for asking a stupid question, perhaps.

Thanks in advance.
#2647SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1DamnDirtyApe
archona, your question is answered on the bottom of page 94 and the top of page 95 of this thread, as well as the first post.

In summary, imp HoT is useless for raids and the points are better spent elsewhere, and you should use the spreadsheet posted on the first page to determine if ruin is more beneficial than UA for your gear.
#2648SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Archona
Originally Posted by DamnDirtyApe View Post
archona, your question is answered on the bottom of page 94 and the top of page 95 of this thread, as well as the first post.

In summary, imp HoT is useless for raids and the points are better spent elsewhere, and you should use the spreadsheet posted on the first page to determine if ruin is more beneficial than UA for your gear.
Thanks....I tried to read thru the thread...so many responses..

I guess I get to respec all the time then

Thanks
#2649SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Morwen
Perhaps we should have separate threads for theory vs. 'help me please' like the mage threads?

To address the broader question of 'should I spec a certain way', as long as the spec is not completely silly (you can tell when it is), just try it for a raid or two and use wws to evaluate your performance, adjusting for luck as needed. This is not an agonizing decision, it doesn't cost much to respec, and it's not going to make or break your raid's success in BT/Hyjal. You are playing a warlock, not a spec, so knowing first-hand how all of the specs work is a beneficial thing.
#2650SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Anexus
Hi, i'm pretty new here. I just spent quite a lot of time reading through all of this and there is alot of useful information here. I'm a bit surprised about the use of CoR though. We have never really used it in raids. It has been mentioned a few times, but since nobody had any real facts we just sticked to CoS and CoE. Now if we swap CoE for CoR the mages are definitly going to start crying so I guess I need some hard data to back up such an action. I know it depends on raid setup and it's a matter of calculating the math. We usually have more than 2 locks and I personally dislike CoD due to the threat spike when it goes off. I have a few questions though. How much armor does a boss have? Or are there any chance of getting the armor down to 0? I've noticed some melee dps items have armor penetration and I bet the melee would hate it if their executioneer proccs turn out useless. I think I saw a link to some armor thing for bosses way back but I cant seem to find it again. Also, if it is a melee friendly fight, meaning they get to stay and dps more than having to run isnt there an issue with threat also? Since they cant go above 100% like casters. We dont really use rogues that often which leaves warriors, enh shammies, retri palas, ferals (which we sometimes use for offhealing in a few healing intensive situations if they dont have to tank, and running with less main healers) and hunters, which (except hunters) have very limited ways of dropping their aggro. Any thoughts or experience to share? I'll mention CoR for my rl/cl when i active my account again (temporarily closed due to school issues) and try spamming mana potions more often

I guess that question could fit into other categories or threads too. And a small totally unimportant question, but how do you grind shards as destro? I usually dont play my lock outside raids anymore and most of the time I just get them off trash. But like I learned the hard way, there is no trash to Archi. I guess just putting up a voidwalker and slowly killing the mobs is easiest? Mobs usually run out of range if fear them or I two shot them with an sb crit.

Last edited by Anexus : 04/25/08 at 3:52 PM.
#2651SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Nicarras
@Anexus

You can lookup what bosses CoR is very beneficial and you should use it on there. Generally you'll have more Melee than Mages, and it will add more RaidDPS than CoE. But it is situational, depends on the boss, how much melee dps you have and how many mages you have. Most bosses you can but CoR on, if you have 3 Locks, but bosses where the tank stands a chance of dying from spikey boss dmg you shouldnt CoR. IE: Bloodboil.

Shard Farming as destro for me goes like...

Sac Void

Shadowbolt
Immolate
Drain Soul

Sometimes a mob gets two shot and I dont get one, but most of the time I get one. And I'm farming Basilisk outside Shatt for shards and food consumables.
#2652SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Deathwing
Farming shards as destro is quite easy, barely any extra work because you don't go out of your way to do it. Basically, you get a crit, the mob is going to die before it gets to you. Figure out it if will take 1 or two more bolts, cast drain soul while the last bolt is in the air.
#2653SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Anexus
Originally Posted by Nicarras View Post
You can lookup what bosses CoR is very beneficial and you should use it on there. Generally you'll have more Melee than Mages, and it will add more RaidDPS than CoE. But it is situational, depends on the boss, how much melee dps you have and how many mages you have. Most bosses you can but CoR on, if you have 3 Locks, but bosses where the tank stands a chance of dying from spikey boss dmg you shouldnt CoR. IE: Bloodboil.
So what i've found so far is that most bosses have either roughly 6200 or 7700 armor. Meaning 800 armor reduction from CoR is a fair chuck of armor, but still leaves out the possibility of hitting the 0 armor cap with any realistic set of armor penetration gear. One notable exception is RoS phase 1 where the boss has 0 armor. As for the AP i've read contradicting post on how to negate it. Some say 2/5 imp demo shout gives max ap reduction when CoR isnt applied and that full 5/5 is needed to negate the ap from CoR. Some posts claim that the hunter pet debuff Screech is also required. Now if you can completely negate the effect of the added AP it shouldnt matter how hard or spikey the boss hits. Or am i missing something?
#2654SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1PSGarak
2/5 Improved Demoralizing Shout will negate all of a boss's base attack power. 5/5 Improved Demoralizing Shout plus Curse of Recklessness with leave a boss with 20 AP, significantly less than they would have had without either, but still slightly more than just with 2/5 improved demo. Screech will close this gap. Most people don't worry about it.

You are correct that 800 ArP will probably not drop any non-RoS boss to 0 armor in a realistic gear set, but if someone is building for it specifically you might encounter it between Sunder/Expose Armor, Faerie Fire, and some really high ArP procs like executioner and [Warp-Spring Coil].
Setting aside that cap... while the exact damage increase varies depending on absolute armor of target, you can expect aronud 5-6% damage increase on each physical DPS, so if your physical DPS classes outnumber your mages 2:1 your preference is for CoR, and if you have about two or three physical DPS classes total CoR beats CoD. Note that for those purposes, a ret pally should probably count as half a physical class (lots of holy damage), an enhancement shaman maybe 3/4 (some magic damage), and a felguard perhaps 1/4.

As far as destro shard farming, start drain soul while the shadowbolt is en route. While I've never been full destro, it's what I had to do when I was level 60, SM/ruin, and ridiculously overgeared (especially for WPL). It helps to start at max range and have good ping.
#2655SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Chaley
One thing to also consider when using CoR is that this will allow your tank to hit harder and thus generate more threat. This can help people who are throttling because they are threat capped.
#2656SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Sumbish
Imp for DPS in raids

As an aff raid support spec I am always looking for ways to get a bit more DPS. I am not always required to provide bloodpact to the tanks so I am wondering whether it's possible to get some DPS from the imp given a few factors like is VE/VT available.

Has anyone had any real success with this or it's just a waste of time with the low Imp HPs?
Are there any T6 fights that it works well on?

Sorry if this is answered somewhere but if it is I can't find it.

Last edited by Sumbish : 04/26/08 at 10:42 PM.
#2657SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Filmnio
quick question, anyone know if you still get a hidden cooldown if you start casting a spell too early before the previous spell has finished casting? ie, do we still need to time our SB casts with our latency or can we just quickly mash our SB button?
#2658SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by Filmnio View Post
quick question, anyone know if you still get a hidden cooldown if you start casting a spell too early before the previous spell has finished casting? ie, do we still need to time our SB casts with our latency or can we just quickly mash our SB button?
I seem to get best results by timing it meticulously. I don't mash, I just compensate for my latency and press so my "cast SB" message arrives at the server when the cast is complete, with as little downtime as possible. Sometimes I press too early and that causes a little lost time until I send again.

I don't know _why_ exactly it works. What you're saying, a sort of "hidden" cooldown would explain it, I guess.
#2659SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Troffel
Originally Posted by Filmnio View Post
quick question, anyone know if you still get a hidden cooldown if you start casting a spell too early before the previous spell has finished casting? ie, do we still need to time our SB casts with our latency or can we just quickly mash our SB button?
For me, it works much better, if i "smash" the shadow bolt button.

But in general it depends on serveral factors:

1. Is on the underlying network the latency to send a next network paket low enough?
Otherwise timing of the shadow bolt button is important.

As a hint: Look at the nagle-algorithm of TCP-connections and try TCP_NODELAY.
It should be used by Blizzard nowadays, but my experience is enable it in the registry
ensures only a low latency. (I use Windows Vista.)

2. How the repeat rate of the keyboard affects the smashing?
If you have a low repeat rate of the keyboard, then timing of the shadow bolt button is preferable.

With my keyboard i able to set a very, very high repeat rate for the keyboard and i experience with
both settings (TCP_NODELAY, very high repeat rate) a smooth chain casting of shadow bolts.

By the way some keyboard allows to send keyboard events, when the key is presses, so hat smashing the keyboard is not really necessary.
You need only keep the button pressed and the keyboard is firing the event every 50ms or less.
This is some kind of auto firing for shadow bolts.
#2660SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Anexus
Originally Posted by Sumbish View Post
As an aff raid support spec I am always looking for ways to get a bit more DPS. I am not always required to provide bloodpact to the tanks so I am wondering whether it's possible to get some DPS from the imp given a few factors like is VE/VT available.

Has anyone had any real success with this or it's just a waste of time with the low Imp HPs?
Are there any T6 fights that it works well on?

If your group can manage without the extra hp I'd say go ahead and try it. However it is very fragile and will most likely be one-shotted by any dmg. Some careful pet micromanaging is probably required. How to keep him alive is very fight specific and will probably take some practice. If you get too distracted by the micromanaging it might even be a dps loss, at least until you get used to it. Aslo, I doubt VE can save him, but VT will allow him to dps a bit longer before he goes oom. And he does go oom very fast. Since phase shift cannot be cast in combat you probably want to just save him for the end of the fight.

Shade of Akama is most likely the best fight for imp dps. Make sure all the casters are dead (those that do rain of fire) before you take him out of phase shift. Supremus might work in the tank and spank phase if you watch out for him, and allowing him to regen mana in the kiting phase. In MH I think I would have him dps adds if possible. Most bosses have some nasty aoe attack that will kill him, but depending on what posistioning your raid uses he might be out of range when killing adds (2nd and 4th boss).
#2661SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Smurrf
Originally Posted by Filmnio View Post
quick question, anyone know if you still get a hidden cooldown if you start casting a spell too early before the previous spell has finished casting? ie, do we still need to time our SB casts with our latency or can we just quickly mash our SB button?
I've found it much better to time it. I've cast enough bolts by now to know that just after the cast bar passes the T, it's safe to cast the next one or a Drain Soul.
#2662SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Anexus
Originally Posted by Filmnio View Post
quick question, anyone know if you still get a hidden cooldown if you start casting a spell too early before the previous spell has finished casting? ie, do we still need to time our SB casts with our latency or can we just quickly mash our SB button?
I prefer to just time it too. At least as destro. I usually have around 100ms and I dont know how much about the mechanics regarding server-client messages so I might be wrong in doing so. But when you are just spamming one spell you eventually get a feeling of when to cast, and when you hear the sound of bloodlust (and see yourself grow) you kind of automatically adjust to the new speed. As affliction though I had problems, especially with nightfall proccs messing up "my feeling". You didnt mention your specc so I thought I would bring it up.
#2663SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Troffel
Do decide, where time the shadow bolt key or spam it:
Is ther an addon, which measure the real time difference between the shadow bolts and compare it to the theoretical (minimum) time between shadow bolt casts?
#2664SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by Troffel View Post
Do decide, where time the shadow bolt key or spam it:
Is ther an addon, which measure the real time difference between the shadow bolts and compare it to the theoretical (minimum) time between shadow bolt casts?
Quartz does this, more or less.

As for as perfect timing, you won't get it per spell for the same reason you can't see it right now: we don't have valid timestamps of anything.

You could, however, analyze a time slice and see how many spells you got off and how much time you lost doing nothing in between. This would actually be interesting information.
#2665SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rozzenwyn
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Quartz does this, more or less.

As for as perfect timing, you won't get it per spell for the same reason you can't see it right now: we don't have valid timestamps of anything.

You could, however, analyze a time slice and see how many spells you got off and how much time you lost doing nothing in between. This would actually be interesting information.
Quartz definitely helped me up my DPS. It puts a "red" area at the end of the cast bar. As soon as your cast gets into that red area its safe to cast the next spell. Sometimes the red area for me is tiny and other times when latency spikes its been over half the cast bar. That's a LOT of wasted time not casting if I didn't have quartz to let me know it was safe to cast again.

I thought they recently changed the way the client server info was sent and there was not supposed to be any more of that locking out the spell if you send again too soon and button mashing was supposed to work better now? Or am I remembering it backwards. Either way I don't do the mashing, I use quartz but I could have sworn it was in patch notes a few patches back.
#2666SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Demoniack
Anyone has the maths to know how many haste is needed for a firelock to cast a 7th Incinerate in the rotation?

Does it worth it to drop spell damage and crit for this 7th Incinerate?
#2667SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1 Eph
Originally Posted by Rozzenwyn View Post
Quartz definitely helped me up my DPS. It puts a "red" area at the end of the cast bar. As soon as your cast gets into that red area its safe to cast the next spell. Sometimes the red area for me is tiny and other times when latency spikes its been over half the cast bar. That's a LOT of wasted time not casting if I didn't have quartz to let me know it was safe to cast again.

I thought they recently changed the way the client server info was sent and there was not supposed to be any more of that locking out the spell if you send again too soon and button mashing was supposed to work better now? Or am I remembering it backwards. Either way I don't do the mashing, I use quartz but I could have sworn it was in patch notes a few patches back.
I believe you can cast just before the 'red' area now.
#2668SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Troffel
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
Quartz does this, more or less.
...
Quartz measure a different time as latency: Difference between keypress and time of the spell start event.

By i want to measure the player skill aka spam efficiency.
This is the difference between the time of the spell end event of the first spell and the start event of the second spell.

In an perfect timed or perfect spammed world this time should be zero and indicates how good a player is able to chain cast.

This ist the time i want to watch do decide, whether spamming or timing is better.
#2669SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Nas
Originally Posted by Troffel View Post
Quartz measure a different time as latency: Difference between keypress and time of the spell start event.

By i want to measure the player skill aka spam efficiency.
This is the difference between the time of the spell end event of the first spell and the start event of the second spell.

In an perfect timed or perfect spammed world this time should be zero and indicates how good a player is able to chain cast.

This ist the time i want to watch do decide, whether spamming or timing is better.

You can check the exact time between consecutive Shadow Bolts hitting by using WWS:

Browse -> Browse Log File -> Filter -> Select the Actor -> Choose Event = Hit

You can then create a spreadsheet that calculates the difference, in milliseconds, between a perfect cast time (which would depend on the haste you're under at the time - you could do Dr Boom with no haste effects whatsoever, too) and each of your own Shadowbolts.
#2670SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Troffel
Originally Posted by Nas View Post
You can check the exact time between consecutive Shadow Bolts hitting by using WWS:

Browse -> Browse Log File -> Filter -> Select the Actor -> Choose Event = Hit

You can then create a spreadsheet that calculates the difference, in milliseconds, between a perfect cast time (which would depend on the haste you're under at the time - you could do Dr Boom with no haste effects whatsoever, too) and each of your own Shadowbolts.
Very good hint! It seems that i come in the Brutallus fight often close to the theoretical cast time within a 10ms margin.
So i think spamming (with high repeat rate of the keyboard) is much better, than timing. I would not expect that with timed keypressing a better result.

So i think that there is NOT hidden CD, while spamming keys.

I had 90 spell haste rating:
...
19:52'01.664	Troffel's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 4852 Shadow damage
19:52'04.017	Troffel's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 2389 Shadow damage (1567 resisted)
19:52'06.438	Troffel's Shadow Bolt crits Brutallus for 10141 Shadow damage
19:52'08.808	Troffel's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 4854 Shadow damage
19:52'11.180	Troffel's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 4044 Shadow damage
19:52'13.554	Troffel's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 3629 Shadow damage
19:52'15.913	Troffel's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 2200 Shadow damage (1443 resisted)
19:52'18.278	Troffel's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 4352 Shadow damage
19:52'20.621	Troffel's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 3512 Shadow damage
19:52'22.994	Troffel's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 3701 Shadow damage
19:52'25.340	Troffel's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 4155 Shadow damage
19:52'27.741	Troffel's Shadow Bolt crits Brutallus for 10646 Shadow damage
...
#2671SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
richard
I was under the impression that when they removed the need for /stopcasting macros. you could just mash the button?

Forgot what patch it was and I have no idea what mechanics they changed, but I went from timing it carefully to just mashing it since then. (here's wat I found, from 2.3: Client spell cast requests are now sent to the server even if your player is already casting another spell. This eliminates the need for /stopcasting in macros to compensate for latency.

Edit: Interesting numbers; this is mine with 6% spellhaste (shows 2.2seconds on quartz cast bar)
Looks like I can still improve a little, but the question is whether I can do that by mashing it faster or timing it carefully?
22:37'05.843	Ric's Shadow Bolt crits Brutallus for 8345 Shadow damage
22:37'11.281	Ric's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 4061 Shadow damage
22:37'13.468	Ric's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 3386 Shadow damage
22:37'15.734	Ric's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 3164 Shadow damage
22:37'17.937	Ric's Shadow Bolt crits Brutallus for 6587 Shadow damage
22:37'20.156	Ric's Shadow Bolt crits Brutallus for 6861 Shadow damage
22:37'22.484	Ric's Shadow Bolt crits Brutallus for 8125 Shadow damage
22:37'26.531	Ric's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 3889 Shadow damage
22:37'28.531	Ric's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 3953 Shadow damage
22:37'30.859	Ric's Shadow Bolt crits Brutallus for 6613 Shadow damage
22:37'33.343	Ric's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 3741 Shadow damage
22:37'35.625	Ric's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 3762 Shadow damage
22:37'37.968	Ric's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 2858 Shadow damage (687 resisted)
22:37'40.281	Ric's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 3775 Shadow damage
22:37'42.687	Ric's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 3162 Shadow damage
22:37'45.093	Ric's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 3126 Shadow damage
22:37'47.515	Ric's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 3126 Shadow damage
22:37'50.000	Ric's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 3811 Shadow damage
22:37'52.265	Ric's Shadow Bolt hits Brutallus for 3117 Shadow damage
Troffel: How can you see the repeat rate of your keyboard, and is there a way to alter it?

Last edited by richard : 04/27/08 at 5:06 PM.
#2672SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Troffel
Originally Posted by richard View Post
I was under the impression that when they removed the need for /stopcasting macros. you could just mash the button?

Forgot what patch it was and I have no idea what mechanics they changed, but I went from timing it carefully to just mashing it since then.
No /stopcasting only simple smashing the button resp. let the finger down on the button.
(For the "Let the finger down on the button"-stategie you need a keyboard, which has a auto repeating function working with WoW. For my keyboard setting the autorepeat is 50ms.)
#2673SourcePosted on<=2.0.0vaniah
links

Can anyone link some url's to updated warlock spreadsheets comparing fire builds with incinerate to the default shadow destro build?

i tried the spreadsheet listed at the start of this thread but it doesn't look like it has an option for incinerate spam for some reason.

otherwise some well researched debate would be nice on fire / shadow with a typical raid set up, which ought to be defined by whoever making the arguements.

also, if its already somewhere in this thread... a link would nice as well. this thread is way past the "way too long" threshold... an admin or someone needs to either start a fresh one or delete the relatively useless posts
#2674SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Nas
A few questions I am hoping to find an answer to from those who have tanked Alythess:

1) I am assuming Nether protection is a bad idea for the Warlock tank, am I safe in assuming that?
2) I am contemplating a 40/21 sort of spec in order to have MD and Soul Link, do you feel this is necessary for survivability or would 0/21/40 without Nether Protection be optimal due to the DPS advantage in Phase 2?
3) I assume if the Warlock tank is fast enough, one wouldn't need any FR gear on save raid buffs, is that a safe assumption?

Thanks in advance!
#2675SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Madlax
Originally Posted by Nas View Post
A few questions I am hoping to find an answer to from those who have tanked Alythess:

1) I am assuming Nether protection is a bad idea for the Warlock tank, am I safe in assuming that?
2) I am contemplating a 40/21 sort of spec in order to have MD and Soul Link, do you feel this is necessary for survivability or would 0/21/40 without Nether Protection be optimal due to the DPS advantage in Phase 2?
3) I assume if the Warlock tank is fast enough, one wouldn't need any FR gear on save raid buffs, is that a safe assumption?

Thanks in advance!
No Nether prot. Also no standing in melee range.
DPS problems as tanking warlock is none of your concern. Survival is.
Fire res gear doesn´t work.
3 Tanks - 1 Lock Sacrolash last
Wow Web Stats
2 Tanks - 1 Lock Alythess last
Wow Web Stats

Hope that helps.
#2676SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Amandine
Tempest of Chaos or Zhar'Doom ??

Which is better? ToC or Zhardoom? According to Leulier's spreadsheet Zhardoom is giving slidely more DPS, anyone could confirm this?
#2677SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Kordansk
In reference to the noticeable internal cooldown, it was basically a GCD everytime you spammed the button when a cast wasn't done at a viable time, and the reasoning was the client was checking with the server if the shadowbolt had been cast. It has been since changed so it is all done client side. I believe it was changed a while ago, and what you would see on the client end is a GCD start to tick around the button mid cast appearing to restart, well now it does it but it just cancels immediately and allows you to cast as soon as you are completed with the previous cast.

Also, Zhardoom is better as long as you maintain your hit cap switching from ToC and Rage offhand, to the staff, due to the haste rating on it, and the way haste ends up scaling better when you reach certain points in crit and spell damage.


edit: Torq did you get a chance to model Quag's Eye? I was wondering what the effective haste on it is, compared to the use of Skull of Guldan every 2 min.

Last edited by Kordansk : 04/28/08 at 6:05 AM.
#2678SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Deathwing
Precise timing is still better than button mashing. As kordansk said, GCD is now done client side, BUT, if you send that request to the server too early, it will cancel your GCD, but the time it took for your message to go to the server and back may have been more time than it would taken to press the button at the right time.

Basically, button mashing approaches precise timing as your latency lowers.
#2679SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arelenda
Originally Posted by richard View Post
Edit: Interesting numbers; this is mine with 6% spellhaste (shows 2.2seconds on quartz cast bar)
I don't get this. You need a LOT more than 6% haste to get down to 2.2s casting time. You need over 140 haste rating to even come under 2.3s. Did I misunderstand something, or are you just wrong on this?
#2680SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Torq
Originally Posted by Kordansk View Post
edit: Torq did you get a chance to model Quag's Eye? I was wondering what the effective haste on it is, compared to the use of Skull of Guldan every 2 min.
I don't have a Quag's eye to test with, personally (never had the luck of it dropping for me), so I'm going to have to assume that the numbers in this thread are valid: Procs with/without internal cooldowns

Given the longer internal cooldown and lower proc chance, I'm going to go with it being worth far less than one might think. The following graph applies only to lolsbspam locks, as I use a 2.5 sec cast spam as the basis for calculating the cutoffs:



Note that this is calculated without any latency concerns. Each 10 ms of latency will shift that point right by about 7-8 passive haste.

If you want to calculate your exact value of how much the effective haste it's worth for you, just go plug in your numbers to the formula I posted earlier. Again, the formula keeps only destro locks in mind; if you're affliction, you may want to look into the suggestions Leulier posted in the lock spreadsheet thread.

For reference, with my 87 haste, it'd be worth ~80 (79.95 to be exact) +dmg for me. Oddly enough, this is slightly more than my Darkmoon Card: Crusade. Hmm. Most likely, that's due to me having hit the first breakpoint. [E] By comparison, the Skull is worth +128 damage, if it is contributing to your hitcap. If not, it's still worth ~88 +dmg or so.

In case anyone's wondering, there is a second breakpoint, but it's in the 600-700 passive haste range, for the Blade, anyway. I'd expect the Eye to be similar in value. I don't think it's possible to hit this second breakpoint (even with BL+IV), so I'm not really concerned about it.

Last edited by Torq : 04/28/08 at 10:38 AM.
#2681SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Jipakazoid
Regarding previous question of using an imp as additional dps, there are several fights where it is quite useful, namely Brutallus. Our affliction warlock is setting his imp free and he is doing his thing just like the hunter pets. It may take you a few tries to learn where to set him, but in the end you are looking at additional 100-150 dps.

Also make sure he gets all the raid buffs, it will help him sustain his fire bolts much better.
#2682SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Presarc
The imp's positioning doesn't matter much for Brutallus anyways as far as I've seen as the affliction warlock in the tank group. None of the abilities can affect him if my memory serves.
#2683SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Faldrath
Does anyone know whether DoTs applied during Kalecgos persist between realms? Yesterday I tried casting CoD on the demon just before I left the shadow realm, and when I checked WWS this morning the results were inconclusive. I'm pretty sure I didn't see anything in the combatlog during the fight, and WWS doesn't register any CoD damage for me - although it does register Sathovarr being afflicted by the CoD debuff (but, again, in his shadow damage taken summary there isn't the expected 13k or so hit, so maybe it just registers the debuff being applied). Of course, CoS and CoE do persist, so either this is just a combatlog bug, or damage dots are cleared when you leave a realm.
#2684SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Morwen
Your combat log won't register anything happening in the other realm since it is too far away, so wws won't be anywhere near accurate unless you can merge multiple logs. I don't see debuffs vanishing when I'm in the demon realm and people are ported up, so presumably the damage still happens.
#2685SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1LockApologist
Originally Posted by Morwen View Post
Your combat log won't register anything happening in the other realm since it is too far away, so wws won't be anywhere near accurate unless you can merge multiple logs. I don't see debuffs vanishing when I'm in the demon realm and people are ported up, so presumably the damage still happens.
I've actually found the opposite to be true. We're just learning the encounter atm, but I've gotten data from demon realm on attempts where I have not made it through a portal.
#2686SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Faldrath
Originally Posted by Morwen View Post
Your combat log won't register anything happening in the other realm since it is too far away, so wws won't be anywhere near accurate unless you can merge multiple logs. I don't see debuffs vanishing when I'm in the demon realm and people are ported up, so presumably the damage still happens.
I know, but the WWS I saw consisted of 3 logs (mine, and two people who weren't in my group so they weren't at the shadow realm when I was). I'm leaning towards a combatlog bug, actually - it might be something like "Unknown's curse of doom does 13k shadow damage" in other people's logs.
#2687SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1LockApologist
Originally Posted by Amandine View Post
Which is better? ToC or Zhardoom? According to Leulier's spreadsheet Zhardoom is giving slidely more DPS, anyone could confirm this?
I've found that Zhardoom is about 10-15 dps loss from ToC + Rage OH. If you look at just ZD vs ToC, ZD looks to be higher, but the sheet does not take into account your OH when comparing MH to 2hd.
#2688SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rozzenwyn
Originally Posted by LockApologist View Post
I've found that Zhardoom is about 10-15 dps loss from ToC + Rage OH. If you look at just ZD vs ToC, ZD looks to be higher, but the sheet does not take into account your OH when comparing MH to 2hd.
Best way to compare it is to play with the gear_buffs area. Put ToC & choose your offhand and then look at the dps scrreen and see what the final number is then go back and put Zhardoom and choose "none" for offhand and go look again. For me its a neglible difference. Zhardoom comes in 1.04 dps more but that's using ToC & Fetish of the primal gods. Using one of other offhands (Chronicle of Dark Secrets is about 3dps less than ZD, Blind Seer's Icon is aobut 7-8 dps less) it is even less because I am already hit capped. So its an upgrade over ToC & any of the good off hands avaiable for me right now but its only marginally better. It's really gonna depend on your other gear and whether or not the hit rating on the sword helps you out.
#2689SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Nicarras
Does anyone else find it funny that we still get questions like 'is itemX better than itemY' when it varies lock to lock, spec to spec....and we refer people to the spreadsheet every single time?

Spreadsheet people, its not perfect, but its pretty darn close.
#2690SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Krazen
Is there any mathematical benefit to stacking [The Skull of Gul'dan] alone with Power Infusion/Heroism?

At first, I didn't think there was, since both of them are haste benefits. But since the Skull is a linear increase in spell haste, while the other 2 are multipliers, I am now thinking that I was mistaken.
#2691SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Anexus
Originally Posted by Nicarras View Post
Does anyone else find it funny that we still get questions like 'is itemX better than itemY' when it varies lock to lock, spec to spec....and we refer people to the spreadsheet every single time?

Spreadsheet people, its not perfect, but its pretty darn close.
If you dont want to use the spreadsheet you can always compare items "the old fashioned way".

MH + OH (rage winterchill):

46sta
34int

34spellhit
47spellcrit
301spelldmg

Staff:

70sta
47int

36spellcrit
55spellhaste
259spelldmg

Personally, I would take MH + OH because:

- Sunwell gear lack hit
- you always want more spelldmg
- there are more yellow than red sockets allowing for gemming of crit/haste/hit and still get socket bonuses
- you will most likely kill Rage and Archi alot more than Illidan (when you down Illidan Sunwell seems to be the next priority)
- staffs have high stamina and intellect which take up alot of the itemlvl for the weapons but contribute very little to the dps as suppose to pure dmg/hit/crit/haste

Regardless, it is a close call and depends highly on the gear you already have.

Last edited by Anexus : 04/28/08 at 3:53 PM.
#2692SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Flamingcloud
While there is clearly a benefit to stacking hexlord with heroism.. My assumption is that since haste does not scale perfectly linearly is that it is actually worse to use guldan during heroism.

Quick math.. (assuming its 2.5/[1.haste*30%])
0 passive haste
40sec of heroism 20.80 bolts @ 1,923
20 sec of guldan 8.89 bolts @ 2.25
29.69 bolts

20sec of both 11.54 bolts @ 1.733
20sec of hero 10.4 bolts @ 1.923
20 sec of nothing 8 bolts @ 2.5
29.94 bolts

200 passive haste
40 sec of heroism 23.43 bolts @ 1.707
20 sec of guldan 9.9bolts @2.019
33.33bolts

20 sec of both 12.87 bolts @ 1.554
20 sec of heroism 11.716 bolts @ 1.707
20 sec of nothing 9.01 bolts @ 2.219
33.59bolts

Edit fixed a mistake in my division.

Last edited by Flamingcloud : 04/28/08 at 6:37 PM.
#2693SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1 manly
Originally Posted by Krazen View Post
Is there any mathematical benefit to stacking [The Skull of Gul'dan] alone with Power Infusion/Heroism?

At first, I didn't think there was, since both of them are haste benefits. But since the Skull is a linear increase in spell haste, while the other 2 are multipliers, I am now thinking that I was mistaken.
If Bloodlust reduced the skull of guldan (fel infusion) buff time, then you would be correct. However, since fel infusion stays at 20s no matter what else is going on, then it is to your advantage to stack them together.
#2694SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Morwen
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
20 sec of both 11.872 bolts @ 1.554
Problem found.

In fact the benefit of Gul'dan doesn't scale with your haste at all.

With the following variables:
C = base cast time (2.5s for Shadow Bolt)
H = haste (rating/1577)
G = fel infusion (175/1577)

Then you get
(1/C)*[20*(1.3)(1 + H {+G if you pop it during hero}) + 20*(1.3)(1 + H) + 20*(1 + H {+G if you pop it outside})] for total casts in the 60 second window. Popping Gul'dan somewhere in the initial 20 seconds makes it 1.3 times better and the benefit has no dependence on H.

Edit: of course in a real situation you don't get fractional casts since haste is locked in at the start of the cast, so results may differ from up-rounding.
#2695SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1richard
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
I don't get this. You need a LOT more than 6% haste to get down to 2.2s casting time. You need over 140 haste rating to even come under 2.3s. Did I misunderstand something, or are you just wrong on this?
Sorry, I made an error. 2.2 seconds is what I get with Drums of Battle up, without it quartz shows 2.3. Also, the character sheet rounds up the percentage, without drums I have 103 haste.
#2696SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Cronjob
Originally Posted by Anexus View Post

Personally, I would take MH + OH because:

- Sunwell gear lack hit
- you always want more spelldmg
- there are more yellow than red sockets allowing for gemming of crit/haste/hit and still get socket bonuses
Sunwell loot lacking hit??? Really once you're into sunwell you should be pretty good on hit especially if you have the skull. Also the belt and boots that drop there for (set pieces) have hit. I'm already at 10% haste and this week should be at 12% with boots maybe a 14% haste with Neck from Twins if it drops. Also chances are you wont be socketing for hit, mostly damage/haste or crit/haste..

I took ZD and it increased my dps by a bit although I didnt have ToC before.
#2697SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by Morwen View Post
Problem found.

In fact the benefit of Gul'dan doesn't scale with your haste at all.

With the following variables:
C = base cast time (2.5s for Shadow Bolt)
H = haste (rating/1577)
G = fel infusion (175/1577)

Then you get
(1/C)*[20*(1.3)(1 + H {+G if you pop it during hero}) + 20*(1.3)(1 + H) + 20*(1 + H {+G if you pop it outside})] for total casts in the 60 second window. Popping Gul'dan somewhere in the initial 20 seconds makes it 1.3 times better and the benefit has no dependence on H.

Edit: of course in a real situation you don't get fractional casts since haste is locked in at the start of the cast, so results may differ from up-rounding.
Could you make your math any less readable? Your math seems to be identical to mine tho, and I plugged in real numbers and got those results. The simple fact is the more haste you have the less useful it is. (the whole 1% haste is 1% off your cast but 100% haste is only 50% off your cast mechanic, thus 30% haste all the time is better than 60% haste half the time.)
#2698SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Nicarras
Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
Sunwell loot lacking hit??? Really once you're into sunwell you should be pretty good on hit especially if you have the skull. Also the belt and boots that drop there for (set pieces) have hit. I'm already at 10% haste and this week should be at 12% with boots maybe a 14% haste with Neck from Twins if it drops. Also chances are you wont be socketing for hit, mostly damage/haste or crit/haste..

I took ZD and it increased my dps by a bit although I didnt have ToC before.
Keep in mind that however you did it, you geared your character pretty quickly. 7/8 already?

Outside of the set items there isnt much hit there. So if you have the staff and dont gem for hit, maybe you missed a skull, theres a chance you are running into sunwell not at hit cap. Or possible that you wouldnt be at the hit cap if you swapped an item.

I'm close enough hit cap and are 10% haste shadow and 12% fire, so it is doable, but you just have to micromanage your Lock.

IMO if you get a Moonkin and/or Ele sham in your group consistently you should not gem for crit and just gem for haste. I keep going over the numbers and if you get those two it's pretty nice. You dont have to gem for hit since you will be over hit cap as long as the Shaman is alive and you can stack more haste than crit as you are getting a ton from group buffs.

So always try to keep track of what your raid buffs are also, as they should impact how you max/min your toon.
#2699SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Morwen
The part I quoted is the arithmetic error.

Haste increases the number of casts in a fixed timeframe in a linear manner no matter how much haste you have already. This makes it sublinear with respect to your actual dps but it's still linear to the number of casts:

In a fixed timeframe T, with fixed base cast time C and variable haste H,
each cast is C/(1+H)
so the total number of casts is (1+H)(T/C), and that's linear in H.
#2700SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Anexus
Originally Posted by Cronjob View Post
Sunwell loot lacking hit??? Really once you're into sunwell you should be pretty good on hit especially if you have the skull. Also the belt and boots that drop there for (set pieces) have hit. I'm already at 10% haste and this week should be at 12% with boots maybe a 14% haste with Neck from Twins if it drops. Also chances are you wont be socketing for hit, mostly damage/haste or crit/haste..

I took ZD and it increased my dps by a bit although I didnt have ToC before.
Seems like you misunderstood my point. You should by all means be hit capped when you enter Sunwell. There are loads of hit items in BT and MH so that should not be a problem. But when you replace those BT/MH items you will most likely start loosing hit. And I know there is hit on some of the tier gear, but I am not sure if there is enough hit around to keep the cap that easily. I dont know all the loot that drop in Sunwell either, but knowing that there is less hit on several of the items there I would make sure I had my hit rating on those MH/BT items that I am not likely to replace anytime soon. I also consider this staff vs mh+oh a "what gear should i start out in sunwell with"-type of question.

I personally never gem for hit (I try to get it off the item stats themselves), but I know some people do so I just mentioned that for the sake of completion. I dont know what you are trying to say with that haste you got. That you have alot of haste doesnt change the fact that there is less hit on drops in Sunwell. As for gems I will go for dmg in red, dmg+haste in orange unless my crit drops below 25% (tooltip) in which case I will go dmg+crit.
#2701SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Krazen
Originally Posted by Morwen View Post
The part I quoted is the arithmetic error.

Haste increases the number of casts in a fixed timeframe in a linear manner no matter how much haste you have already. This makes it sublinear with respect to your actual dps but it's still linear to the number of casts:

In a fixed timeframe T, with fixed base cast time C and variable haste H,
each cast is C/(1+H)
so the total number of casts is (1+H)(T/C), and that's linear in H.
I think there is also some consideration as to whether haste is truly sublinear in the short term.

Part of the reason haste is sublinear over 6 minutes is the increased mana output, and thus increased lifetap frequency over an extended duration.

However, during trinkets/heroism, you should be lifetapping 0 times regardless of what your haste level is.
#2702SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Flamingcloud
Originally Posted by Morwen View Post
The part I quoted is the arithmetic error.

Haste increases the number of casts in a fixed timeframe in a linear manner no matter how much haste you have already. This makes it sublinear with respect to your actual dps but it's still linear to the number of casts:

In a fixed timeframe T, with fixed base cast time C and variable haste H,
each cast is C/(1+H)
so the total number of casts is (1+H)(T/C), and that's linear in H.
"20 sec of both 11.872 bolts @ 1.554"

Total haste = 200+175
with heroism thats 2.5/[(1+375/1577*1.30)] or 2.5/1.609 ie 1.554 for 20 seconds i don't see the issue here. 1 Haste WILL NOT always reduce your cast time(and this is the only thing that determines number of shadowbolts) by the same.

10% haste
2.5/1.1= 2.273

reduction of 0.227

20% haste
2/5/1.2 = 2.083
reduction of 0.189

Unless there was a problem somewhere else that I didnt see or I am totally missing something, the numbers prove using gul'dan during heroism(and coincidently drums aswell) is worse
#2703SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Torq
Mmk, let's try to model this a lil:

W/o skull or BL, for 70 sec with 0 haste you get:

70/2.5 = 28 shadowbolts

Back-to-back BL + Skull you get:

45 sec of SBs at 2.5/1.3 (1.923) cast time (with r sec overflow) and 20 sec at 2.5/1.11 (2.250) cast time (t overflow) and x at 2.5 =

r = ceil(45/1.923) - 45/1.923 = 0.599
t = ceil(20/2.250) - 20/2.250 = 0.111

ceil(45/1.923) + ceil(20/2.250) + (70-45-20-r-t)/2.5 = 24 + 9 + 1.716 = 34.716 shadowbolts in 70 sec.

Stacking Skull in the first 20 sec of BL you get:

20 sec of SBs at 2.5/(1.3+.11) (1.773) cast time (with r overflow), (25-r) sec at 2.5/1.3 (1.923) cast time (t overflow) and x at 2.5=

r = ceil(20/1.773) - 20/1.773 = 0.720
t = ceil((25-r)/1.923) - (25-r)/1.923 = 0.373

ceil(20/1.773) + ceil((25-r)/1.923) + (70-45-t)/2.5 = 12 + 13 + 9.850 = 34.8508 bolts in 70 sec.

Correct my math if I'm wrong, but while it's a benefit to stack the two, it doesn't seem like much of one.

These assume that you wouldn't pop your trinket until after casting the last bolt affected by the previous haste, of course. the 70 window (instead of 65) was to soak up the overflow, as you techincally get the haste benefit from every spell cast while the haste bonus is up.

Of course, with the right amounts of haste, stacking the two would give an even greater benefit, if you can squeeze that last .72 sec of the last bolt that gets the benefit of both of them down enough to fit another bolt in.

But again, it's really close.

[E] Just realized, my calculation for stacking the two under BL might be off. Is it c/(1+h+.3) for BL, or c/((1+h)*1.3)?

[E2] My fractional times might be off. I'll have to check my units later. Don't have time now, sadly.
#2704SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Flamingcloud
I am acting under the assumption it is *1.3 not +0.3 Torq.. I tried to get a shaman to heroism me 4 times but apparently there is some sort of bug where heroism wasnt hitting me.. If it is +0.3 then it is even more clear not to stack them tho.

Torq, you should do two of those graphics you do Torq with total bolts casted vs passive haste 0-400 one for trinket during hero, one for trinket after hero. Curious where the inflection points are.



Edit: Fixed my original numbers for a mistake(wrote bolt count down off by 1second), would seem as tho stacking is still better, at 200.. and the gap changes so insignificantly that it is probably always better to stack them.

Last edited by Flamingcloud : 04/28/08 at 6:39 PM.
#2705SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Latas
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
Could you make your math any less readable? Your math seems to be identical to mine tho, and I plugged in real numbers and got those results. The simple fact is the more haste you have the less useful it is. (the whole 1% haste is 1% off your cast but 100% haste is only 50% off your cast mechanic, thus 30% haste all the time is better than 60% haste half the time.)
You seem to be mixing 2 mechanics here. Haste and increased spell casting speed are not the same. While abilities like Heroism and Icy Veins increase spell casting speed where yes, 100% would just cut your casting time in half because it would cause you to just cast at 200% casting speed, haste however keeps a relatively linear haste to dps progression (until you hit the GCD, then it follows the GCD down for that spell). So in all actuality 100% haste would make every spell instant but keeping the GCD at 1s, though that would take 1577 haste rating to achieve. Basically increased spell casting speed well it increases your spell casting speed (duh), whereas haste rating lowers the time your spells take to cast.

Now keeping that in mind, the skull actually adds raw haste to your standing haste for 20s. The question is, depending on how it is all calculated together, is the Heroism calculated after or before the skull? Seems like this would depend if the skull is just being added to your gear haste rating for calculations or if its being taken into account after things like Heroism.

Please tell me if i missed something here because every resource i have seen, including the spreadsheet, says this is how haste rating works.

Last edited by Latas : 04/28/08 at 7:41 PM.
#2706SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1crimsonsentinel
100% haste means your spells cast in half the time it normally takes to cast if you ignore the global cooldown. Haste rating acts the same way as heroism.
#2707SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1PSGarak
All haste effects work the same, +100% haste is a -50% casting speed change. All haste gained through haste rating gets lumped together additively, all other haste effects get multiplied separately. So a 30% bloodlust with the skull active will make you cast 30% caster than a non-lusted skull activation. Hasting the haste nets you a minor cross-multiplicative term that makes them better to stack than to use independently.
Math: Let's say you have two equal amounts of time, two haste activations, and for the sake of simplicity you can either haste one interval than the other, or double-haste on and have the other be unhasted. Haste, as should be evident, multiplies your damage done in that interval by a percent. Let's look at the sum of damage multipliers.
(1+h_1)(1+h_2) + 1= 2 + h_1 + h_2 + h_1h_2 > 2+h_1 + h_2 = (1+h_1) + (1+h_2)
Stacking them is better than not stacking them, by an amount equal to the cross-term. Which is 30% of however much haste you get from the skull.

Note that this is only true because of bloodlust being done by percent instead of haste rating. If you had two haste rating activations (or a proc and a clicky or whatever) there is no benefit to stacking them. Because the benefit of haste rating is linear it doesn't matter if you use them together or not.
Hueristics: 100% haste doubles your cast speed, giving you double damage. 200% haste triples it, tripling your damage. The second 100% was the same increase as the first 100% (compared to your base damage).
#2708SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Latas
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
All haste effects work the same, +100% haste is a -50% casting speed change. All haste gained through haste rating gets lumped together additively, all other haste effects get multiplied separately. So a 30% bloodlust with the skull active will make you cast 30% caster than a non-lusted skull activation. Hasting the haste nets you a minor cross-multiplicative term that makes them better to stack than to use independently.
Math: Let's say you have two equal amounts of time, two haste activations, and for the sake of simplicity you can either haste one interval than the other, or double-haste on and have the other be unhasted. Haste, as should be evident, multiplies your damage done in that interval by a percent. Let's look at the sum of damage multipliers.
(1+h_1)(1+h_2) + 1= 2 + h_1 + h_2 + h_1h_2 > 2+h_1 + h_2 = (1+h_1) + (1+h_2)
Stacking them is better than not stacking them, by an amount equal to the cross-term. Which is 30% of however much haste you get from the skull.

Note that this is only true because of bloodlust being done by percent instead of haste rating. If you had two haste rating activations (or a proc and a clicky or whatever) there is no benefit to stacking them. Because the benefit of haste rating is linear it doesn't matter if you use them together or not.
Hueristics: 100% haste doubles your cast speed, giving you double damage. 200% haste triples it, tripling your damage. The second 100% was the same increase as the first 100% (compared to your base damage).
Ah, thank you for clarifying. I guess it all goes by the old standard that we locks abuse as it is to get top dmg in raids. Percent buffs are always better to stack a bunch of than stacking a bunch of set number buffs.
#2709SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1 manly
Originally Posted by Latas View Post
You seem to be mixing 2 mechanics here. Haste and increased spell casting speed are not the same. While abilities like Heroism and Icy Veins increase spell casting speed where yes, 100% would just cut your casting time in half because it would cause you to just cast at 200% casting speed, haste however keeps a relatively linear haste to dps progression (until you hit the GCD, then it follows the GCD down for that spell). So in all actuality 100% haste would make every spell instant but keeping the GCD at 1s, though that would take 1577 haste rating to achieve. Basically increased spell casting speed well it increases your spell casting speed (duh), whereas haste rating lowers the time your spells take to cast.

Now keeping that in mind, the skull actually adds raw haste to your standing haste for 20s. The question is, depending on how it is all calculated together, is the Heroism calculated after or before the skull? Seems like this would depend if the skull is just being added to your gear haste rating for calculations or if its being taken into account after things like Heroism.

Please tell me if i missed something here because every resource i have seen, including the spreadsheet, says this is how haste rating works.
Extended example:

final_cast_time = talented_cast_time / (1 + total_haste_rating_in_percent) / 1.3 (bloodlust) / 1.1 (berserking) / 1.2 (icy veins)
Lets say I use a talented shadowbolt and 10% passive haste
x = 2.5 / (1 + 0.10) / 1.3 / 1.1 / 1.2

In other words, spell haste rating is additive, and haste effects like bloodlust, icy veins, power infusion, berserking, focus proc are multiplicative.
#2710SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1 manly
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
Note that this is only true because of bloodlust being done by percent instead of haste rating. If you had two haste rating activations (or a proc and a clicky or whatever) there is no benefit to stacking them. Because the benefit of haste rating is linear it doesn't matter if you use them together or not.
This is not totally true. Stacking haste effects is not a linear effect. In the grand lines of things it is, but in practice it is not fully true. If you take into account that spell cast time is determined upon time of casting and not 'as they leave your hand' (which wouldn't make much sense, but ignoring that), stacking more/less haste can be a benefit.

If, for example, you had a 200 haste / 20s trinket, and one that gives 400 haste / 20s, then stacking them together would allow you for:

200 haste = 12.68%
400 haste = 25.36%
600 haste = 38.05% (200+400 - stacked)

2.5 / 1 = 2.5 -> 8 shadowbolts / 20.00s
2.5 / 1.1268 = 2.22s -> 10 shadowbolts cast within proc / 22.20s (gain: +2 sb)
2.5 / 1.2536 = 1.99s -> 11 shadowbolts cast within proc / 21.89s (gain: +3 sb)
2.5 / 1.3805 = 1.81s -> 12 shadowbolts cast within proc / 21.72s (gain: +4 sb) (expected: +5 sb)

conclusion: stacking 200 haste with 400 haste trinkets together is detrimental.
PS: using different values I can also show that stacking them is to your advantage; the point is that the gain is not linear, and stacking/unstacking can be beneficial depending on what your haste is at.
#2711SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Devourment
Quick question as I'm stepping out of work:

I am using haste due to my group synergy (Spriest + ele sham 100% of the time, so definitely always for brut.)

I am currently at 11% haste not counting skull, with 2.25 second SB.

The reason for using haste to me, instead of spinels/straight +dmg, is that my haste multiplies the effects of the totem of wrath and wrath of air by 11% tooltip, 10% in real time, thus slightly edging out +dmg in what I have sacrificed for haste.

The World of Warcraft Armory

I have deviated from a few leulier spreadsheet non-haste upgrades due to their rather weak (5-15) dps improvement numbers, based on my personal calculations.

Am I wrong?
#2712SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Demoniack
Since we're talking about haste...

Haste is useless for a Fire Lock untill he can fit a 7th Incinerate in his rotation, right?

Immolate---------[start]
Incinerate(1)-----[2.25]
Incinerate(2)-----[4.5]
Incinerate(3)-----[6.75]
Incinerate(4)-----[9.0]
Incinerate(5)-----[11.25]
Incinerate(6)-----[13.5]

225 Haste is needed for a 7th Incinerate, math:
5.7 Haste = 1% Decreased Cast Time

Target: 7 Incinerates in 13.5 seconds

7 Incinerates normally takes 15.75 seconds
13.5 / 7 = 1.92857

Each Cast will need to be 1.92857 seconds to achieve our target.

Calculate the difference between our target time and current time
(1.93 / 2.25)*100 = 85.7%

The Reduction required:
100 - 85.7 = 14.3%

The End Result
14.3 x 15.7 = 224.51 ~ 225 Haste
The ultimate question: Does it worth it to get 225 haste for a 7th Incinerate while dropping spell dmg/crit?
Want to hear pro Fire Locks on this.

Edit: Actually, I think the math are wrong: incinerate's extra damage from immolate is calculated on time of cast, not when incinerate reaches the target (correct me if im wrong), so the target will be 7 Incinerates in 15 seconds.

Doing the maths again with 7 Incinerate in 14.9 seconds = 125 haste is needed.

Last edited by Demoniack : 04/28/08 at 9:36 PM.
#2713SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Trickykid
"Fitting" incinerates into an immolate is not nearly as important as you'd think. The extra damage to incinerate from immolate is relatively small. You can play around with the sheet to go off of "worse case" immolate uptimes and it will drop your DPS by a handful of points. Add another lock immolating and this loss is nothing.
#2714SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Demoniack
Originally Posted by Trickykid View Post
"Fitting" incinerates into an immolate is not nearly as important as you'd think. The extra damage to incinerate from immolate is relatively small. You can play around with the sheet to go off of "worse case" immolate uptimes and it will drop your DPS by a handful of points. Add another lock immolating and this loss is nothing.
We have 2 fire locks in our guild, I was wondering if some guild use 1 lock to cast immo while the other one only spam Incinerate or "Immolate swapping" between the 2 fire locks is a viable option.

As for haste: (You'll prolly tell me to test in on the spreadsheet) I understand and believe haste is very food for Shadow Bolt spam, but what is your opinion on Incinerate ?
#2715SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1 frmorrison
You would want both Locks casting Immolate.

Haste is great for both dps spells. The only difference between the two is SB favors crit more than using Incinerate, both spells love more spell haste.
#2716SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Flamingcloud
Haste also benefits fire locks less than shadow locks, but the difference isn't very large. mainly due to incin being a 2.5 second spell with 10% haste not a 2.25 second spell. (tho there is also the immolate will go below 1.0 second cast during heroism slight penalty)
#2717SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Latas
Originally Posted by Demoniack View Post
Since we're talking about haste...

Haste is useless for a Fire Lock untill he can fit a 7th Incinerate in his rotation, right?

Immolate---------[start]
Incinerate(1)-----[2.25]
Incinerate(2)-----[4.5]
Incinerate(3)-----[6.75]
Incinerate(4)-----[9.0]
Incinerate(5)-----[11.25]
Incinerate(6)-----[13.5]

225 Haste is needed for a 7th Incinerate, math:

The ultimate question: Does it worth it to get 225 haste for a 7th Incinerate while dropping spell dmg/crit?
Want to hear pro Fire Locks on this.

Edit: Actually, I think the math are wrong: incinerate's extra damage from immolate is calculated on time of cast, not when incinerate reaches the target (correct me if im wrong), so the target will be 7 Incinerates in 15 seconds.

Doing the maths again with 7 Incinerate in 14.9 seconds = 125 haste is needed.
Also can't the immolate that fills the requirement for the bonus damage be any locks immolate?
#2718SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1LockApologist
Originally Posted by Demoniack View Post
Since we're talking about haste...

Haste is useless for a Fire Lock untill he can fit a 7th Incinerate in his rotation, right?

Immolate---------[start]
Incinerate(1)-----[2.25]
Incinerate(2)-----[4.5]
Incinerate(3)-----[6.75]
Incinerate(4)-----[9.0]
Incinerate(5)-----[11.25]
Incinerate(6)-----[13.5]

225 Haste is needed for a 7th Incinerate, math:

The ultimate question: Does it worth it to get 225 haste for a 7th Incinerate while dropping spell dmg/crit?
Want to hear pro Fire Locks on this.

Edit: Actually, I think the math are wrong: incinerate's extra damage from immolate is calculated on time of cast, not when incinerate reaches the target (correct me if im wrong), so the target will be 7 Incinerates in 15 seconds.

Doing the maths again with 7 Incinerate in 14.9 seconds = 125 haste is needed.
It takes a little over 100 haste to get a 7th incinerate in. More haste just resduces the dot gap on immo. 225 haste, as you've calculated it, is the amount of haste needed for 7 Incin + 0 dot gap on Immo.
#2719SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Mortimmer
For the crafted section, there are also [Bracers of Nimble Thought].
#2720SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Elija
Timbal's Focusing Crystal

Hello, is there any qualified calculation about the new mgt heroic trinkets DPS: Timbal's Focusing Crystal ?

Is it better than Mags Eye or even Crescent? (depending if you cast 1, 2 or even more dots)
#2721SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Madlax
Regarding Haste cycles:
[Warlock] PVE Raiding Compendium

Done with "new" LT back then, mana wise you´ll lack 1 tap every 4 cycles nowadays.
#2722SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Lacky
My question is the real world application of haste when you only have a limited amount of it. Do you really need a good % of haste before you see returns in the 'real world' applications? I know what the spreadsheet says but when you look at movement and slight lag during fights is it worth sacrificing crit for a little bit of spell haste. These are the two gear scenarios i am playing with.

spell hit caped in both
Gear Set A: Dmg-1267 Crit-20.91 Haste-2%(2.43 sec SB)
Gear Set B: Dmg-1277 Crit-22.18 Haste-0

*edit* btw these stats are all unbuffed

Last edited by Lacky : 04/29/08 at 11:30 AM.
#2723SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Arnath
There's some math on Timbal's somewhere in either this thread or the DPS spreadsheet thread (it's actually also in the Wowhead comments for the item). Basically, if you're in a raid as Affliction, it's better than the Icon because the damage of the bolt scales with all the +% shadow damage buffs/debuffs you have going. However, at the same time, it's only better because of these % bonuses so it's worse than the Icon in normal situations.
#2724SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rozzenwyn
Originally Posted by Lacky View Post
My question is the real world application of haste when you only have a limited amount of it. Do you really need a good % of haste before you see returns in the 'real world' applications? I know what the spreadsheet says but when you look at movement and slight lag during fights is it worth sacrificing crit for a little bit of spell haste. These are the two gear scenarios i am playing with.

spell hit caped in both
Gear Set A: Dmg-1267 Crit-20.91 Haste-2%(2.43 sec SB)
Gear Set B: Dmg-1277 Crit-22.18 Haste-0
Try the worksheet out with the 2 sets of damage and see what it says. I thought gemming for haste would work well for me but then I started playing with the worksheet and found that 9 times out of 10 choosing a 12 damage gem was better than a 10 haste gem. The only exception seemed to be if the 10 haste gem would meet a socket color requirement that gave me a bonus of at least 4 damage. Anything less and 12 damage won out. I am demo spec however and I am guessing that since the damage scales to my felguard and the haste does not that is what the difference was. Haste still comes out better for me than crit though.
#2725SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1tetracycloide
Originally Posted by Lacky View Post
My question is the real world application of haste when you only have a limited amount of it. Do you really need a good % of haste before you see returns in the 'real world' applications? I know what the spreadsheet says but when you look at movement and slight lag during fights is it worth sacrificing crit for a little bit of spell haste. These are the two gear scenarios i am playing with.

spell hit caped in both
Gear Set A: Dmg-1267 Crit-20.91 Haste-2%(2.43 sec SB)
Gear Set B: Dmg-1277 Crit-22.18 Haste-0
In the specific example above the argument being aluded to is that lag or movement would make haste less valuable because you have less time on target. You can just as easily make the argument that haste is more valuable because you have smaller windows than 100% DPS time to throw as much damage up as possible.

The best thing you can hope to maximize from a theory crafting standpoint is the expect value of your DPS. The spreadsheet calculates the average value of your DPS given a set of gear and a fight of infinite length (even if you set the OOM time it is still an average of what the DPS would be given an infinite number of 10 min fights or whatever time it was set to).

Obviously the spreadsheet is going to miss exceptional situations where, in a specific case, X% amount of haste would have resulted in 1 more bolt thrown in a 4' fight and therefor would be better than X% crit or vice versa.

This is largely irrelevent, however, because at the end of the day the specific mechanics of every fight are different and the best thing you can hope to maximize through theorycrafting is still the expected value of your DPS.
#2726SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Morwen
Originally Posted by Elija View Post
Hello, is there any qualified calculation about the new mgt heroic trinkets DPS: Timbal's Focusing Crystal ?

Is it better than Mags Eye or even Crescent? (depending if you cast 1, 2 or even more dots)
As mentioned there are some calculations on wowhead, although they tend to be mathematically questionable (most of them assume something like E[1/X] = 1/E[X]).

Here are some actual values from shadow priest testing (who should generally have a higher proc rate)
Shadow Priest 101: How to Melt Faces Effectively

In general it is pretty close to the Icon, and due to luck can be better or worse (it is not quite as good for warlocks as for priests). Given that, I still prefer the Icon for a couple reasons: in a short fight you will get more than the average for a clickable trinket, its timing is controllable, and you know exactly what you're getting out of it every time you click.

Edit: added math.

Part I - Computing the average damage

Tooltip average is 380.

Multipliers:
CoS - 1.13
Weaving - 1.1
Misery - 1.05
Crit - 1.1 at 20% crit
ISB - 1.12 at 60% uptime
Hit rate - 0.99
Partial Resist - 0.94 at 6% partial resist rate

Average damage = 569.

Part II - Computing the dps based on the proc rate distribution

Define
k := number of DoT ticks per second
X := the period of time elapsed until a proc, when the cooldown is ready.

Let f be the probability density function of X, and F be its cumulative distribution.
In other words, F(x) is the probability that a proc happens in the first x seconds.

Then F(x) = 1 - 0.9^(kx)
= 1 - e^(ln(0.9^k)*x)

So X is an exponential distribution with lambda L = -k*ln(0.9),
and f(x) = L*e^(-Lx).

Expected dps of proc = Average damage per proc * E[1/(15+X)]

E[1/(15+X)] = Integral of (1/(15+x) * L*e^(-Lx) dx) from 0 to positive infinity

Sample values
k = 1/3 --> E[1/(15+X)] = 0.03134, dps 17.8
k = 2/3 --> E[1/(15+X)] = 0.04042, dps 23.0
k = 3/3 --> E[1/(15+X)] = 0.04545, dps 25.9

In terms of comparing this to Icon's activate effect, since the dps value 
of +dmg is gear-dependent you should just plug your gear/spec in the 
spreadsheet and check the dmg-to-dps conversion rate in a zero-lifetap 
situation.  For me it's something like 21 dps on average and scales with 
haste effects whereas Timbal's doesn't.

Last edited by Morwen : Yesterday at 6:19 PM.
#2727SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Lock
Dark runes

I was woundering why the dps spreadsheet goes up when using dark runes, do they not have a global cause wouldnt lifetapping be more efficent?
#2728SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Flamingcloud
They do not trigger the global. As far as I know, no consumable instant item does.
#2729SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Arelenda
Originally Posted by Lacky View Post
My question is the real world application of haste when you only have a limited amount of it. Do you really need a good % of haste before you see returns in the 'real world' applications? I know what the spreadsheet says but when you look at movement and slight lag during fights is it worth sacrificing crit for a little bit of spell haste. These are the two gear scenarios i am playing with.

spell hit caped in both
Gear Set A: Dmg-1267 Crit-20.91 Haste-2%(2.43 sec SB)
Gear Set B: Dmg-1277 Crit-22.18 Haste-0

*edit* btw these stats are all unbuffed
You won't get any noticeable difference, since it's too low to stand out. Shadowseer used to be able to browse a combat log and estimate what your gains would have been if you had 100 more spellpower, 100 hit rating, 100 crit rating and 100 haste rating.

Haste typically beats any other stat, except hit, on a one-for-one basis, when you have reasonable amounts of haste (<250).
#2730SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Torq
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud View Post
I am acting under the assumption it is *1.3 not +0.3 Torq.. I tried to get a shaman to heroism me 4 times but apparently there is some sort of bug where heroism wasnt hitting me.. If it is +0.3 then it is even more clear not to stack them tho.

Torq, you should do two of those graphics you do Torq with total bolts casted vs passive haste 0-400 one for trinket during hero, one for trinket after hero. Curious where the inflection points are.



Edit: Fixed my original numbers for a mistake(wrote bolt count down off by 1second), would seem as tho stacking is still better, at 200.. and the gap changes so insignificantly that it is probably always better to stack them.
Ask and you shall receive!

Surprisingly, it's actually linear.

[E2] Turns out I wasn't doing the BL calc right. Go me for always using the base cast time (DOH!) Uploading a new ver.

Okay, fixed version. Still linear, but now stacked and separate are humping each other.


Last edited by Torq : Yesterday at 8:11 PM.
#2731SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Tobolin
i see more and more locks going fire. what am i missing?! to me, i see shadow being more benefitial(while i agree that both shadow/fire are very good dps options) because of spriest synergy, boosting their dps and their mana return to their group. my question is more so this: my shadow dps is already top in my guild, should i consider respeccing/reenchanting/regearing to accommodate fire?
#2732SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Torq
Originally Posted by Tobolin View Post
i see more and more locks going fire. what am i missing?! to me, i see shadow being more benefitial(while i agree that both shadow/fire are very good dps options) because of spriest synergy, boosting their dps and their mana return to their group. my question is more so this: my shadow dps is already top in my guild, should i consider respeccing/reenchanting/regearing to accommodate fire?
Fire dps generally = more personal dps.

It's more a case of locks respec'ing because 1) there are plenty of shadow locks to go around (every lock past the first contributes less and less to ISB uptime) or 2) they just want big numbers.

/shrug
#2733SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Tobolin
Originally Posted by Torq View Post
Fire dps generally = more personal dps.

It's more a case of locks respec'ing because 1) there are plenty of shadow locks to go around (every lock past the first contributes less and less to ISB uptime) or 2) they just want big numbers.

/shrug
i dont know about your guilds, but we raid with 3 locks, one puts CoS, one put CoR, i CoD. if i go fire, im obviously putting up CoE, and basically pigeon holing our mages as fire to buff my dmg(they currently go as arc/frost =\) i dont know, i do comparable dps to what every other lock thats farmed illidan since august does that ive seen(2200-2600) depending on the fights im not threat capped(GG tanks with A.D.D).

and about big numbers... how much higher am i going to see? im already destro with 1440 shadow dmg(soulfrost/trash cloak)
#2734SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Carnate
With three locks you should be using CoE instead of CoD anyways. As long as the raid has two or more mages CoE is better dps.

Fire can be better personal DPS but you bring nothing to the table and can hurt your raid by not adding to the ISB. Shadow also provides the side buffs of Nether Prot and Soul Leach.

Side note last I heard Fire was the better DPS spec for mages anyways. Ours all go fire cept on Illidan (parasites and flames damage).
#2735SourcePosted on<=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*<=2.0.0
Arelenda
Originally Posted by Torq View Post
Fire dps generally = more personal dps.

It's more a case of locks respec'ing because 1) there are plenty of shadow locks to go around (every lock past the first contributes less and less to ISB uptime) or 2) they just want big numbers.

/shrug
I _really_ wish people would stop propagating this "dps uptime" myth.

Additional locks do improve ISB uptime by less when you have more shadow locks, this is true. But you're also increasing dps uptime for more people.

ISB uptime comparisons are only valid if you have an equal number of shadow users, like when you're calculating what crit rate increases do for you. For everything else you should take a look at total damage boosted by ISB.

And you really do want to use CoE if you have a somewhat competent mage. You do about 10-12k damage per minute with CoD, so if there's 100k damage per minute (1666 dps) in fire/frost CoE is better. Not to mention CoD can be totally or partially resisted and needs to be recast every minute, and is more threat to the warlock.

Last edited by Arelenda : Today at 6:10 AM.
#2736SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Madlax
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
And you really do want to use CoE if you have a somewhat competent mage. You do about 10-12k damage per minute with CoD, so if there's 100k damage per minute (1666 dps) in fire/frost CoE is better. Not to mention CoD can be totally or partially resisted and needs to be recast every minute, and is more threat to the warlock.
I second that.
With current gear and boss fights, CoE should always be put up instead of CoD as 3rd curse once you have a properly dpsing mage. In a fight like Brutallus, every mage should reach 600k damage done on his own.
#2737SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Alazin
Does anyone have a link to the standard fire demo/sac build? I know everyone pushes shadow sac but I've always been the fire lock who provides CoE for our runs.
#2738SourcePosted on<=2.0.0bambatsa
Forgive me if i am off the subject here.
I am a destro lock 0/20/41_hybrid with almost full t5 set and i am wondering if there is an update on my Sextant of Unstable Currents trinket. i am using it with the Icon of the Silver Crescent. I have spell hit caped and my crit is arround 26,5 fully buffed. Have seen your suggestions on trinkets and didn't see this one amongst them...so thought i should i ask. Should i aim at a better one?
thanx
#2739SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Anexus
Has anybody done any math on [Fel Mana Potion] vs [Super Mana Potion]. With and without the alchemist stone. I am assuming it works for both potions. And I am prettry sure the debuff from the fel potion stacks so some kind of decreasing spelldmg over time model is needed. Not sure how to calculate the effects.
#2740SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Flamingcloud
Well If I take my numbers in the spreadsheet and give myself an extra 50 mp5 and remove 25 spell damage (ignoring any kind of stacking debuff) super mana pots come out way way ahead. Only time I could see fel mana pots being better is at the very end if a fight, and only once(so the effective -damage is more like -6).
#2741SourcePosted on<=2.0.0Torq
Originally Posted by Arelenda View Post
I _really_ wish people would stop propagating this "dps uptime" myth.

Additional locks do improve ISB uptime by less when you have more shadow locks, this is true. But you're also increasing dps uptime for more people.

ISB uptime comparisons are only valid if you have an equal number of shadow users, like when you're calculating what crit rate increases do for you. For everything else you should take a look at total damage boosted by ISB.
I'm not sure what exactly this myth is that youmention. As far as you've stated, I was correct in pointing out that each lock added to the raid adds less to the ISB uptime than each lock before him. If I implied something else that was inaccurate, let me know and I'll correct myself, and also learn, because I honestly have no clue what you're talking about, being relatively new to this whole theorycrafting thing...

Though, it does bring up a nice modelling problem, one that I've seen been tossed around and touted as "very difficult" given the scale and complexity. I'll probably end up taking a swing at it and reaching the same conclusion myself, but it might be a fun exercise